The Diminished Scale | What the Hell Is It? | You'll Hear It
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- čas přidán 4. 02. 2020
- What the HELL is the Diminished scale and why the HELL do I care?
You can find out that and more in this great clip from Peter Martin and Adam Maness
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Love the new Hammer 88 sound. And having both Adam and Peter in front of their own keyboards adds another dimension to the podcasts. Inspiring stuff!
I dont think those are M Audio Hammer 88s...?
@@_trismegistusyes they are m audio hammer88
💯%
Diminished scale seen as C7 going down transitioning into F#7 going down (tritone sub) GENIUS, THANK YOU!
Love you guys so much! Learning jazz through your vids and it's coming along! Keep it up guys I wish you all the best
Man I've been fighting with this concept for so long - kind of half understanding it but still kind of baffled. I JUST realized the reason why the diminished scale works over dominant chords (the 3rd-5th-7th-possible flat 9 in a V7 is identical to the diminished scale a half step above) and it blew me away. On one hand it's so simple, but it gives you SO many options. Watching stuff like this makes me want to play!
Thank you for clearing the mud guys... amazing lessons.
This channel has unbelievably rich content. Amazing discourse and lessons! Love it.
Guys you are really awesome, thank you so much for this CZcams channel
Love the nerdiness of this ep, great work
Thanks for all the great content
This is deep. Super deep. Been working on Ab-7 to Db7 to C and this is the answer
Great Stuff. Suggestion for Topic: The other side of Diminished, the Augmented and the whole tone relationship. .. .. Love you guys, been an absolute critical part of my learning, long time supporter. Happy practicing!
Great explanation of the diminished scale and the clear illustration of the application of the half-whole over a dominant 7th. Thanks from Panamá.
OMG!! Eye-opener for me, especially when using the C7, Eb7, etc!! Can’t wait to practice that.
im glad you guys finally upgraded to a POD SUITE. cheers from Mexico
Love this lesson, really solved a lot of my questions for sure.... many thanks!!!
Great format love it
Great ideas for using the Diminished Scale!
Thanks Peter. Gold. Felt the whole half needed clarifying personally was hard to think. 👍
thanks guys for diminishing my diminished returns
killer new studio digs!!!
Martin, you opened up my mind
Great stuff, deep dive, love the "2 tops of dominants a tritone apart" perspective, as that explains it's use in Jazz to some degree
7:14 great idea of thinking 7th scale (mixolydian) going down. But when it comes to WH Scale you could think about minor scales going up (the first 4 steps) and than adding the next minor scale a triton step above (like the 7th scale in the diminished scale)
Great lesson!!!!!!
Welcome back! What brand of keyboards are you playing? They sound great! Love the lessons
Beethoven described diminished scales as 'Nature's little back doors' (as a way out of a hole ....a poke at his contemporaries using it as escape routes for poor compositional processes).
'Nature', interesting choice.
very informative. thanks fellas
FWIW I wish your youtube video feed were synchronized with the podcast feed. I just listened to the Bluesy Double Stop episode and you mentioned that the episode was on youtube so I came for that. I assume it will show up later? That being said, love the keyboards and improved setup.
I'm learning so much
I really like digging into these octatonic scales, this clarified a ton of stuff for me. The idea of a diminished scale just being the top notes of two tritone-separated mixolydian scales just cured my depression. Can you guys go into any other octatonic scales like the bebop scale or the Barry Harris sixth diminished scale? It's super helpful to just hear you guys ramble around in the "world" of the scales and to be immersed in the sound for a while.
The first ballad of Chopin has a passage in the mid section, covering almost all the piano range based entirely on the half diminished scale. More accurately it is the half-dim scale itself.
I suppose they didn't call it with that name in those days.
You'are very great teacher!
You guys are awesome am learning a lot
I think it helps to think about a dominant chord as its third diminished. For example: think of C7 as E°. Then you know the diminished scale for both is the same.
Nice video. Probably, viewers would be also interested in learning about passing diminished; #1dim; #ii dim; biii dim, for example. The scales used are diatonic; one can discern between biii dim and #ii dim. Best.....
I like this way of introducing this scale: First 1) talk about the dim 7th chord and the fact that there are only three of them; and then 2) take all 8 notes from any two of these dim 7th chords and form a scale from them, and...guess what you have? It is called a diminished scale. And,..there are only three such scales too.
That's exactly what I was after.. This tutorial is great but a bit too fast paced for me.. Have you come across the one as described by you? Where it starts off with the diminished chord and introduces the scale via the chord so it all naturally falls into place for slower folk like me?
When Peter gives the example that the only time he consciously plays a whole-half diminished scale is when the one-chord (Eb in his example) is preceded by a "fully-formed" diminished chord, i.e., a ii-V-I in Eb, but the Eb is preceded by Eb diminished, I would argue that the Eb diminished is really subbing for the VII dominant, i.e., D7 (flat 9). Long story short - all diminished chords can be thought of as subbing for dominant chords as follows: The diminished chord ON the root of the key (and its other inversions) subs for the VII dominant, the diminished chord a half step above the key center (and its other inversions) subs for the VI dominant, and the diminished chord a whole step above the key center (and its inversions) subs for the III dominant or in rare cases the V chord. When Peter plays the whole-half diminished scale over Eb diminished, he's playing the half-whole diminished scale that he could use over D7 -9. He could have played D dominant Phrygian or the 3rd mode of Bb Harmonic Major or the 7th mode of Eb Melodic Minor... you get the idea.
How about a video for bass on what to play over diminished triads and/or diminished 7 chords? Like the bridge to "Worry Later" by Monk. Should you use traditional diminished or the octatonic alternative?
Brilliant
Thanks a lot!!!
fantastic
The knowledge you have shared is invaluable to me, I'm seeing the diminished scales in a whole new way. Thank you!!! 👏👏👏👏
Amazing...!!!
Hey guys. Big fan of the diminished and I was hoping you would have used examples of chords as well as the scale like the flat to going into the minor 2-5-1 but I'm sure you might have seeing that Barry Harris video where he likes the flat three diminished going down to that minor to I think that sounds so beautiful. And if you ever get a chance to demonstrate that that would be so awesome. Love the show. And keep it up big fan.
Im a guitarist and this is super informative and interesting! Thanks
You're right, I'm a guitarist and I felt the same way about this video
@@markjohnson9485 "I'm a guitarist guys!" - every guitarist ever
@@magentuspriest Lol. Just wanted to mark that this things good because they apply to all instruments.
Great !
Peter asks if classical pianists are aware of the diminished scale. In 1934 Rachmaninov wrote his variations on a Paganini theme. It opens with the basses playing a ascending Gb diminished scale.
Thanks for these great videos. One suggestion: is there is there any chance you could pay a tiny bit more attention to what exactly you’re playing? I mean, just real quick mentioning what diminished scale you’re playing on top of what chord. Even better would be if you could write ut in the video with text, too. Thanks quite a bit more of work but a huge help to foreigners like myself who don’t have the English words for flats and sharps on the backbone. Again: thank you for your great, “light” tutorials!
One can really see shapes and patterns of diminished and whole tone scales on the guitar.
Wikipedia lists the Octatonic Scale as being for the Alpha Chord which is two stacked Diminished Chords one semitone apart. Many modern musicians have discovered a single Diminished Chord has a seven note scale that is usually a mode of the Phrygian Dominant scale. These can be heard in videos on my channel available in a playlist called Music Evolution Therapy.
Welcome back
What is this beautiful song at the beginning? 😍
What advice can you give me because I want to learn jazz piano, but dont know where to start.
1st ballad of Chopin a bridge passage in the middle of the work a diminished scale interwoven with other line of equal interval space.
You have played diminished scales over dominant 7th chords (like the half whole one) and it sounds great. I have also found that playing the whole half version sounds great over minor 7th flat 5 chords (starting that scale often on the root note of that min 7 flat 5 chord) . I am thinking about the bridge of a tune like Autumn Leaves like when over an A min 7 flat 5 chord in the left hand you go up the whole half scale beginning on A and keep the same scale going as the l.h. chord changes to D7th. That seems to work nicely. BUT... what is a good scale to play over a straight diminished chord in the left hand, say like when you have two bars of one diminished chord to improvise over? Perhaps a whole half scale of the dim. chord root note in the tune at that time? Thank you.
I don't think playing the whole step half step diminished scale would work over a minor 7 flat 5 chord because it would give you the major 7 on the chord, but the half whole step diminished scale sounds great on the 5 chord going to 1 major or 1 minor.
Creat stuff thanks
You always hear teachers talk about how you take any note of a diminished chord and drop it a half step you now have a dominant chord. But one of my teachers pointed out is if you take a diminished chord and raise any note up a whole-step you now have a min 6th chord. I like minor 6 chords this is kind of like the Barry Harris borrowed diminished notes tp me.
It's very interesting. Can you explain this with an example?
Just write out the notes of a diminish chord. Pick any one note of the chord and raise it a whole step. Now take those notes and see what kind of chord it spells.
Now if referring to Barry Harris borrowed notes Barry discusses it in some of his videos, best to listen to Barry talk about it.
You just never stop learning music theory
This actually answers one of my Instagram questions! My next question is....
What the hell is a Lydian Dominant/Overtone Scale used for?? Your video on the altered scale sort of alluded to C7alt (going to Fm) being connected to Gb7#11, so..... Do you typically use it as a bVII sub?
Anthony Lee Phillips Tri tone sub I think
bit late but, if you construct seventh chords from the degrees of a Db melodic minor scale, on the fourth note you'd have Gb7 #4, on the seventh note you'd have C altered. both chords and the scales that go with them (Gb Lydian Dominant and C alt) are derived from the same 'parent' Db melodic minor scale. So they are closely related.
Damn! I'm not a keyboard player. I tinkle around on the electric bass, but as much as I love Adam... Perter fuckin Martin freaks me the fuck out!!! So, I'm off to listen to In the P.M. or maybe What Lies Ahead... or Something Unexpected... Or, what the hell! I'll listen to all three. Thanks guys. That was brilliant.
How do you decide to apply a diminished scale over an altered dominant vs a super locrian scale over an altered dominant? Do you use them interchangeably? They seem so closely related (even though I know functionally they're distant). Thanks!
Haven't used the super locrian scale but the diminished scale is used over diminished chords and dominant chords, even if they aren't altered chords, you can easily spice them up with that scale. It is interchangeable with the altered scale. Notice that one has 7 notes and the other has 8.
"We got fans around the whirl, yO." (Thanks. 'nice wErk!)
How would you finger a half-whole scale that starts on C? There is no way to do it in only two hand positions unless you play a black key with thumb.
Adam is right: Thinking about half-whole diminished scales as a combo of a 7 chord (top) and its tri-tone sub (bottom) is a great!
what vst are you guys using here?
Classical musicians sure know about diminished scale. They cale it Rimsky Korsakov scale. Because he use it alot
Did you know that if you invert all of the notes of a single key both perpendicular and parallel to the tritone axis on the circle of fifths you get the diminished scale on the vi7? Am7 inverted perpendicular to the F/B axis makes Am7 but parallel makes Ebm7. Combine ACEG and EbGbBbDb makes the diminished scale. This inversion idea with non vi7 chords does other things. Cmaj7 becomes Fmaj7 or Gbmaj7 but when using both it makes Bmaj7 and C plus B makes some double harmonic scale of sorts.
For example. Dm7 is the ii of C major. On the circle of fifths, C major takes up 7 adjacent slots from F to B. If you draw a line connecting F and B and then fold it along the line, you get the parallel inversion. F and B stay the same, but C becomes Bb, G becomes Eb, D becomes Ab and so on. The notes of Dm7, DFAC, become the notes to an Abm7 chord, AbBEbGb. However, if you do this perpendicular to the F and B axis line, from Ab to D, Dm7 becomes Em7. The ii became the ii in the key a tritone away with parallel, but the ii became the iii in the same key with perpendicular. If you did both of these inversions at the same time, Dm7 would become Bbm7, the iii of the key a tritone away. In my first comment, with Am7 as the vi of C major, the vi stays the vi but in the key a tritone away and when you combine the notes of Am7 and Ebm7 you get the W/H diminished scale. You get a different scale for each chord pair. You can also create the melodic minor scale by modulating a key in both directions at once. C major to F major is B to Bb and C major to G major is F to F#. So C major with Bb and F# is what we refer to as the melodic minor scale on G. Even though we like it to be on the vi, A melodic minor, it’s on the v now.
Wow!
cool bros love me some octatonics
that chord at 5:16 wow...
classical musicians definitely know about the octatonic scale. it's super prevalent in 20th century music. for an extreme example (built entirely around it), check out rautavaara piano sonata no 2, the fire sermon.
Not all classical musicians..tho..they lack improvisation
Didn’t Wagner use this quite extensively in the third act prelude of Tristan?
There’s a lot of meat around that Bb dim at the end, which you called B7 #9. 😋
I loved that moment, also... but I thought he was looking at that as an upper structure voicing for the Eb dim (whole-half), NOT Bb dim. So, my thinking went straight to: Build that upper structure off of the #5th degree of the Eb chord (the #5 is B). The major 3rd of a B7 is D#, and this is being played in the root voice (Eb/D#). Then voice that B7#9 as a rootless upper structure, and you've got a very hip voicing for Eb dim7.
Barry Harris explains what it is... each one of the 3 is 1 diminished with the 4 dominant roots related to it, you get the dom. roots by lowering a half step each note of the diminished.
1:59 Pretty sure Messiaen knew something about the Diminished scale
Please play one at a time
Guys... Brahms knew the diminished scale. Classical musicians practice diminished too :)
Pretty sure they were joking
Peter: do classical musicians know about the diminished scale?
Adam: aw They don’t really know it
That shit had me dead
ok I'm 2 minutes in an I hear these idiots saying classical musicians don't know about the diminished scale !! they might want to check out people like Bela Bartok and Igor Stravinsky...
@@RustyMadd i wasn't thinking anything about emotional language or 'over thinking' i was just commenting on Their ignorance. There's pretty much nothing jazz musicians know about in music that classical musicians weren't already into. They need a little mind expansion
Sad really, I laughed out loud when I heard that.
What they dont talk:
What the Haven It is?
🎹🎧👏😁🎼🎵🎶
Gerard Butler and Paul Schaeffer talk music!
👂😎🥰
I think in the classical world this is more associated with Shostakovich than anything else
And Messiaen
Classical musicians?????? OF course they know. The composers, of course. Stravinsky, Ravel has a LOT!!!!
They probably meant the musicians who just read the music sheet and don’t think about chords and scales.
Study Bartok
The 10 that disliked the video most likely don’t understand theory. 😂
Classical musicians (composers) invented this scales. Did you heard about Olivier Messiaen or Rimski-Korsakow, Debussy- whole ton scales, Chopin- dominants with added 6th and 9th, also flat 9th without the root voicings? Like guys, come on 😂 show some respect to the origins…
So, an octave has seven individual notes!
What the Hell is 6th Diminished Scale?
check out barry harris
Major scale plus the b6. It opens up harmonic possibilities in comparison to the major scale by adding all the diminished chords of one family, and that allows you to easily create harmonic movement with the maj6 chord of the root of the key you're in and its inversions. In addition to this, in the relative minor, it adds the V7 chord. It's also useful for playing lines since if you play the scale up or down over the I, the chord tones always fall on the down beats
Ever heard of bartok.??
@@RustyMadd bartock was a 20th century classical composer who messed around alot with diminished scales and harmonies... He was also charlie parker's favorite composer
Also Messiaen
Beethoven used a lot of diminished notes.
That's exactly how i do it-- it's 2 parts of different scales! Sometimes, though, while improvising, i have to try and remember which notes (besides the dim chord tones) to use.
Btw, this is great-- but please stop saying "WTH" so often.
it is too qiuck
Sorry but don’t much like this video,2-guys talking fast and playing a few chords,I’ll leave this video to your followers.
Do you have to swear so much?
Clasdical musician not composers..they lack creativity and adventure