Are Romanceable Characters in JRPGs Ruining Storytelling? - G.E.M.S.
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- In this latest installment of G.E.M.S., let's talk about romanceable characters in JRPGs and how they're generally a detriment to storytelling. At least, that's MY opinion. What do YOU think? Please let me know down in the comments!
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As someone who loves romance in their JRPGs, I thought I would have really enjoyed being able to choose which character that I wanted the protagonist to romance. However, I really don’t. I don’t want the romance to go away in games but I do want to watch a romance develop overtime organically. If the developers tell the story correctly, we should buy into whichever characters they want paired together. For example, Trails is one of my favorite series, and I always choose to romance Laura. But other than the couple of specific scenes, Rean basically pretends like the romance doesn’t exist, which feels terrible. I much prefer the romance in say Xenoblade between Noah and Mio. It grows and changes over time and tells a much more impactful story because of it. ❤
You basically stated my view on romance BlueLily, I 100% agree with your take. I wanted to add a little extra to it if I may. In the Trails series which to me is 80-90% story and 10-20% gameplay, it lives and dies by its story, continuity, and world building. It basically an anime told through a video game medium. So if you introduce more gameplay elements to Trails, it breaks the immersion and uniqueness of the game. It was not addressed in the video but when you give a player multiple romanceable options, it’s difficult but not impossible to flesh out the love interests beyond them liking the main character. Falcom managed to do this with more side story events between side characters in Tokyo Xanadu which I wish they did with the Cold Steel and Crossbell arcs’ characters. Falcom basically prioritized player choice to a degree over story and world building which to me hurts Trails more than helps it in my opinion. I guess for replay value it is fine.
yes exactly! I prefer a few well written, organic relationships that fully respect both player and character agency and are interwoven into the story as opposed to a selection of people that are essentially "relationship products" to be consumed (ick)
100% agreed. Slow, organic, author-driven romance in a story is always going to be better than a player-driven romance.
This is a really awesome topic, and has inspired a rant of my own, I think. I might make a "response" video about this. If I do, I'll be sure to send my viewers here. :)
Oh yeah! I sense a "favourite/most dispointing romance option" compilation video coming!
Need to invite Davidvic, backlog battles and the keseki nut too.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on it! It keeps me up at night sometimes 😅
jacknicholsonnodding.gif
I agree with your takes. My biggest issue with the way Rean's harem was handled in particular was the fact that it took away from the development of all of the female characters in the game. In some ways, I felt like it reduced all of them to "potential love interest" in a way that was detrimental to their development as fully "human" characters. Romance in games is fine, but it should be canon. Out of the three Trails arcs I've played, the only one I felt handled relationships well was Sky.
It would've been so cool to see the female characters have interests in people besides Rean. I mean, he's great, don't get me wrong. But, like, poor Machias. Poor Gaius! Also very eligible bachelors in their own right.
It hurts male (and hypothetical non-binary) characters too.
Romantic, famillal, and platonic relationships among characters are constrained by the fact that all of the women have to be in a narrative space where they're romantically available to Rean.
And it's (inadvertently) mildly homophobic by virtue of giving the player romantic agency over the main character while simultaneously limiting the pool of romantic partners to women.
Narrative elements and game mechanics have to complement one another.
If you're writing a well-defined main rather than a protag insert and you want romance in your story, give them a romantic foil (particularly in a linear narrative).
God I wish more people talked about this/took this stance. It sucks though that it's a trend that probably won't die out because of the huge culture of waifus/husbandos and how lucrative it is to cultivate that.
The thing that annoys me so much about it is not only how it hinders storytelling in general but how it detracts from character bonding/interactions even outside of the main character. Because all the girls have to be "available" for the protagonist, they aren't able to have deeper relationships with other characters, especially the guys. That in turn makes ALL the characters such surface level "friends". It's always saying "we are all such good friends" without ever really showing it at all. Part of that is because of this trope but also the fact that there are waaaaaaaay too many characters overall but also as romance options.
And personally for me, I think this mechanic pisses me off more in Trails of Cold Steel for three major reasons. 1) The lack of continuity over multiple games. 2) The sheer number of options for Rean is absolutely ridiculous (I mean really? His students? Women potentially twice his age?). 3) The fact that his "irresistible charisma" is brought up constantly in in-game cutscenes 🙄
TLDR, I hate this mechanic and wish it would die. Or at the very least stay out of games that are more story driven, especially in a long running series.
That's possibly the biggest issue for me, that it keeps the other characters from developing in more interesting ways. I mean yeah, Rean's a catch, but there are a ton of really cool dudes in that world. Let's see the different characters personalities come out by showing us who they'd be interested in.
yes!! five me character agency, I want to get to know characters, not find a "product" that fits my "specifications" (ew)
yep, i agree. like you, i don’t really enjoy “inserting myself” into the story as the protagonist, I like to just be an observer of the story and have the protagonist be an actual character. so when there are romance options, i usually find myself picking the one that feels canon or makes the most sense for the protagonist, and at that point, I’d just prefer there to be no ambiguity so that the romance actually feels baked into the story. great video as always!
Thanks! Yeah, I'm there for a finely crafted story, so I'm much happier when all of that has been done in advance.
yess, tho I do think a blend of both could be done well, I would choose things based on story over anything that broke my immersion
My favorite rpgs have great protagonists, they are a big reason I love the game, I don't like when they choose to have a non speaker protagonist, but still I am always going to play because at least the other characters might be interesting so it might be worth it
Yup, 100% agree. Going from "Estelle and Joshua" to "spend your love points" is pretty sad imo. I mean, I still love the series, but having the Sky arc as a reference makes the whole relationship thing feel so cheap and gimmicky.
Great video again, my friend!
My main issue is that they don’t let Lloyd and Wazy kiss. LET LLOYD AND WAZY KISS DAMMIT
Give the people what they want, Falcom!!
Great video, Brother! I can still remember the P4 debate about the canon love interest! I feel Dancing finally laid it to rest and made Rise the official choice! It's still debated though lol I do still enjoy the romance options though!
Thanks man! Yeah, I always think of whichever person is the Love Arcana is probably the "intended" canon romance in those games. At least that's my head canon. 😂
This sort of thing is part of why I intentionally went for platonic relationships in my initial runs of Trails. Close bonds are already a given for the story, so the deeper relationships that Rean can choose to forge with his platonic options don’t require the same level of suspension of disbelief based on the way scenes unfold.
I loved just watching characters grow closer over the course of the story - Shulk’s love for Fiora - Rex love for pyra/mythra - Noah and Mio love was beautifully written - I don’t even remember in p5 my romance with teacher 🤣
I grew up with Cecil and Rosa, Chaz and Rika, Fei and Elly, Alex and Luna.
Why can't we have more of that (along with some older couples and queer relationships)?
Yeah, queer relationships would be a good step, and I also agree, let's have some protags that are older than, like, 17.
@@JustTheGems I think Cecil and Rosa are well into their 20s.
I think the shift of romances in jrpgs reflects a shift in attitudes and norms around dating in the real world. This means giving players more choice for role playing purposes but at the cost of a stronger prepackaged relationship narrative. I'm not sure what the solution is other than just having games with options and having others with baked in relationships.
That’s a great way of thinking of it. I always preferred fixed romances, even if it doesn’t differentiate itself from books, movies, etc.
Probably true. I think for the time being, anyway, it's just going to have to be one or the other.
it's very much a reflection of capitalist and colonialist narratives infecting how we do relationships. it feels wrong and breaks immersion and is uncomfy most of the time
I personally think it could be blended well but I have yet to really see a game figure that out
Estelle and Joshua were 11 when Joshua initially came to the Bright house. They’re 16 in FC & I just played through the scene where Estelle mentions she’s known Joshua for “five years now”. I liked this video by the way! I feel much the same as you and would love to see the formula improved upon.
Yeah, I was mixing up when Rean came too the Schwarzers (I think he was 5 and Elise was 3).
I'm hopeful that devs will start improving this stuff as time goes on.
I would rather the story writers dictate it because sometimes your view or feelings toward a character can change over time but you may have already made enough decisions to lock yourself into a certain result. So yeah I guess fear of regret later on or buyers remorse so to speak can creep in so I’d rather not have to make the decisions and then just be able to complain afterward about what direction the developer/writers chose 😂
i'm inclined to agree on this too. In the case of Trails, there are de facto canon romances between Lloyd/Elie and Rean/Alisa that Falcom may carry over in future arcs. It's not ideal but its better than anything. From what little i've read on Daybreak, it goes back to the storytelling style of the earlier games than Cold Steel, which I think Falcom will take going forward. I definitely think picking a romance has its place in games and i say that as a visual novel fan lmao (there is a lot of overlap for the audience of anime styled jrpgs like persona and romance visual novels).
Yeah, the audience overlap is a big part of it for sure. I've got high hopes for Daybreak.
Ooh very interesting topic! I can totally see how the romance aspect of games like Persona could take a player out of the story itself when it doesn't make sense. Like, why wouldn't Best Girl Makoto sit closely or at least closer to Joker, if they've already established the relationship at that point? I noticed these relationships be better established in Kiseki, but after playing Cold Steel II and shipping Rean with Alisa, moving on to CS III without so much as a mention about his 'love' seemed kind of disheartening. Obviously the game isn't going to know I went from Steam's CS II to the Switch's CS III, so this continuity is extremely hard to maintain with an epic saga like Kiseki.
Yeah, the carry over is not fantastic. For stories that cover so many games, the "choice" aspect makes things so much more complicated.
I agree. I'm glad I had the option to choose Emma as my waifu in Cold Steel IV, but it didn't seem natural because Rean was so oblivious to not only Emma but everyone else during the series. You should get to choose your waifu earlier and then the story plays out in that direction, without Rean ignoring all of the girls, including the one you eventually choose.
Good thought, if the big choice came sooner, then the story would be easier to adapt based on your choice
A few points so I'll break them down into three different comments. Probably my biggest point is romantic characters does not take away from the game but bloat does. Especially in cold steel four it just seems full of bloat. In my opinion, some of those story events does add to the story but a majority of them do not.
As a gay man myself, since Trails and Persona games don't have that type of romance as options, I never really engage with the romanceable character storylines, and because they have to work out of the main continuity of the story, I feel like I'm never really missing much anyway. All that to say I really agree with your take, since other than living in a pocket of the whole story, they really don't add much.
It's true. The choices available aren't even all-encompassing for all players, so what's even the point? Limiting it to a particular gender seems counterintuitive to the point of choice.
The game that immediately comes to my mind is Xenoblade Chronicles 3. Ignoring all the offspring/lineage consequences of player choice romance in that game, the emotional storytelling would completely fall apart. In addition to that, Sena and Eunie get to have their own complete stories without needing to make room for some last minute hand holding with Noah.
Looking at how well Xenoblade nails the emotional aspect of its stories, it actually frustrates me that so many great franchises choose to have superficial choices. Imagine what could have been if a Rean and Alisa romance was baked in from the start; they’d be 5 whole games into their relationship by now and I’d bet would be a fan favorite.
I've had these same exact thoughts. It's almost impossible to make as fleshed out a story surrounding love interests when you allow the player choice. I think that's why there's a distinction between dating sims and jrpgs a lot of the time, sure games will try to mesh the two but then it becomes murky on defining what it is. I personally thinking of Persona more as a dating sim with jrpg elements.
I'm good with the dating sim elements in those sorts of games, but it definitely detracts from a JRPG story to inject that stuff into it.
Interesting video topic! I think for me my only gripe with romanceable options in games is when the developers clearly have canonical choice but still gives the player the choice of characters to choose from. This especially can be felt in the crossbell games. It’s clear that Lloyd and Ellie have feelings for each other but that gets completely disregarded if you choose a different female character to “romance”.
10000% agree.
Maybe it’s because I’m old.
But I always felt these mini-games felt inorganic and not fun. That whole tea time in Fire Emblem…. Ugh…. It always comes across as a way to pad out a game.
I also think that by giving players choice on who to romance completely limits from the games ability to tell a super dramatic story.
Yeah, there's almost no opportunity for drama when you introduce player choice into it.
PS- I recently started playing Tales from Zero on your recommendation and so far I love it!
I do enjoy romancible characters, but it doesn't make or break things for me. I don't expect much from it beyond a few scenes of dialog changes. I see it more as a small thing to change on future playthroughs juat to mix it up a bit. I don't really expect for the romance to be tightly integrated into the normal storyline scenes. Would be nice, but I understand the complexity it would add.
It would definitely require a pretty sizeable amount of coding to account for the changes, which I'm sure is why it's just a couple of unique scenes like we get now
it is a lot of work to get right for sure,I really do love and appreciate when devs put that care into it tho, it makes me happy
Hope you’re doing well Branden! 🍻
Interesting topic, I think essentially it’s personal preference and how well executed it’s portrayed in the narrative, Tales of Graces F is a perfect example of a game that let me down in this regard.
As a person I am the hopeless romantic type so I am partial to a love story in my JRPG 😂 but with Tales of Graces F, you see the journey of Asbel and Cheri blossom so so well… Only to fall at the final hurdle and they completely drop the ball towards the end with zero pay off of them ending up together.
I do agree with you though some series would benefit from not trying to shoe horn a love story in their JRPGs for the sake of it.
Organic Narrative Vs. Shoehorn Narrative is guess
I’VE ALMOST 100%ed Crystar btw!! 😊
Yeah, I think a narrative with a "baked-in" romance is definitely fallible, and sometimes a failure in that way hurts a story more than one in which the romance is dictated by player choice.
Also, you gotta tell me your thoughts on Crystar when you're done!
I'm not a fan of the "choose your love interest" thing, mainly because of how it affects, or doesn't affect, the dynamics with the characters. Trails, in particular the latter 2 Cold Steel games, are what really made me realize just how much I don't like it, mainly due to me being bothered by implications that games like these are unlikely to acknowledge in a significant way, including, but not limited to...
Do all of the love interests have the same type?
Does the protagonist somehow fit into all of the LIs' strike zone?
Is the protagonist the only desirable partner among the main party or side characters? If so, how do the other members feel about that?
Assuming that there's no "harem choice that nobody has a problem with" option, how do the non-chosen LIs feel?
Like, I know that this kind of system can potentially done well, but I also question whether or not developers are willing to put in the work to make it worthwhile. Then again, other people are just fine with how things have been, and probably won't be bothered by problems that might as well not exist as far as the game is concerned. But considering just how much effort the staff are likely to put into a story and/or its characters, I personally find it hard to not to care about these kinds of details.
Such an interesting topic! I definitely agree with many of your point, but I also feel that there are some benefits to having multiple options when it comes to romance.
Perhaps it's possible to have the best of both worlds. I feel that i've seen games that do this but I can't remember them of the top of my head. But what if there was a game where you could choose to side with multiple factions, and each faction came with it's own storyline, and it's own romance option that is properly tied into that storyline?
Though of course that is going to be more work. Writing multiple main storylines for a game is easier said than done.
Player choice is not always better.
Good video, someone send this to Falcom and Atlus!
Thanks! I'll be curious to see if and how this trend changes over the years, if people start talking about it more.
I don’t think romance is needed for a main story to be good and prefer when it’s on the side like persona
I totally get what you're saying as it would allow the game writers to more appropriately write their own romance into the story. But at that point, it's not MY choice anymore, it's THEIR story. If I want someone else's story, I will watch a movie. In a game, I'd prefer to make my own choices even if there are some minor story inconsistencies.
Yeah, and I know a lot of people feel that way too. But I've always been more narrative focused, so me getting to control the characters in battle has always been enough for me. I like the story to be tightly controlled by someone else.
I think having more choices of HOW to be in relationship with a few characters would be way superior to having a large selection of ppl that essentially function as "relationship products" to acquire. that way you get player choice AND good integrated story elements with no ick factor
@@JustTheGemsWhat I would like would be playable cutscenes, mainly in Xenoblade, because the battle in the cutscenes are so cooler, the character are able to do so much more than when they are playable. Maybe something to you action fast at through the cutscene, but I think if I lose I would also lose the immersion of the scene so it wouldn't be that cool
9:33 A fellow Makoto lover, good taste, good taste.
"hanky panky implied!" - Brandon 2024
A platform I can get behind! 😂
Finally, a candidate I can believe in!
I vote Brandon and the Implied Hanky Panky party
Hey Brandon, thanks for the video! I so agree with you, tell me a story, if I want to romance someone I will romance my wife!
Cheers to that!
I feel very similarly! I think it is much more problematic in a series with direct sequels than a single game. I don’t necessarily hate the idea of romantic choices in gameplay, but I think they have a long way to go when it comes to feeling like a meaningful and natural part of the story
As much as I love persona it has always bothered me that the interactions with your romance doesn’t change for the rest of the game. Especially after you max the link and the scenes with the whole group aren’t any different. That being said, your idea for AI is interesting but I’m always hesitant to think it’s ever good to implement AI in gaming. Great video as always sir.
I mean if you think about it, AI has been a part of games forever. I think that AI tech should improve with all the rest of the tech, but not in a way that takes anything from creatives.
Totally agree with you here, Branden and for pretty much the same reasons.
I'm one of those weirdos who, even though starting with Sky, enjoyed Cold Steel more, but that was in spite of the pitfalls that come along with the "choose your waifu" selection model. I know that one player's "immersion" is another players "self-insert fantasy pandering," but I love a good love story and feel cheated out of the fact that we could have had one with Rean x Alisa if the devs didn't decide on this particular choice.
The cynic in me says it was trend-riding and for sales and, if you look at community conversation, I think it partially worked since I have read so many posts in various Falcom communities about the various ships and why x is better for Rean than y.
I any event, I don't think it's going away and I just try to enjoy games in spite of it.
Same, I'm basically resigned to this being a thing that's in a lot of the games I love now, and I'm learning to adapt.
I agree with you 100% Branden, although I am the same age as you so maybe the fact we aren't Teenagers makes a difference. But, I think the whole stupid Love Point thing where they are trying to copy Persona with the limited time thing is ANNOYING! I'm sure it's profitable to cultivate the Waifu Crowd, and it forces you to "replay" to make different choices for Achievement Hunting... but overall it is exactly as you said - detracting and it cheapens the story. I don't think it even makes sense thematically from a game design perspective, these are NOT games focused on Player Choice! It makes total sense in games like The Witcher or Baldur's Gate but not in my JRPGs which are following a pre-written narrative. From the very start, it very much feels "Tacked-on" like an after-thought checkbox they threw in just because.
I'm sure it's popular more broadly speaking, but yeah, in story-heavy games, it feels like it's handicapping the storytelling unnecessarily.
I think I do slightly prefer having a romance baked into the story than the player choice option.
It's not a huge preference though and I think if games could integrate it into the narrative better then I wouldn't really care that much.
There is also the fact that if I don't have chocies then I don't have to figure out who to choose, but that's probably just a me issue.
I tend to agree, if they can work the choice in so it FEELS organic, then I don't mind if I'M the one who is driving the choice. But it just needs to feel like it's having an impact on the story in a real way.
Totally agree with you on this. They should lower the amount of people you can romance and work it into the story depending on who you choose, or just have a placeholder for whoever you romance in the story and put the person you choose into that role regardless of who it is. But yeah I'd rather not have the choice and have it more seamless.
It reminds me a lot of Octopath Traveler 1 where no one seemed to care about anyone else's story. Everyone had their own thing and acted like they were doing it solo. Was very discombobulating.
Very much agree about Octopath, it was my biggest complaint
I couldn't have worded this better myself! Trails of Cold Steel is missing something when the main protagonist lumps his love interest in with the Power of Friendship moments in the series. In my opinion the love interest should draw something out of the protagonist, not have token moments that feel forced.
Yes, perfectly said. They should FEEL different from everyone else.
ya, we affect one another in relationship, regardless of the kind of relationship, and not seeing that acknowledged just feels wrong
(especially the closer you are in relationship, in whatever form)
The dating sim aspect that they seem to be adding to every game should just be an options setting or something. Most times it feels extraneous, tacked on to pad a game and like you said, adds nothing to the actual story.
I can only assume it's in there because enough people enjoy it, which is fine, but yeah, it can become a drain on the aspects of the story I'm most interested in.
As a Persona fan one of the questions I often see is “who is the canon romance?” which tells you how much people desire a dedicated romance that has some level of officiality to it.
Also as a player I don’t like picking romance options because if Im do choose a relationship early on, when the flag to enter a new relationship with someone else is triggered and I need to tell the other character no, the game makes me feel bad. Case in point Haru, if you don’t romance Haru in Persona 5 when give the option the game really makes you feel like crap.
I think the issue isn't that it's detrimental to storytelling but that companies are not willing to put in the time, effort, and cost associated to actually making it work.
I think it can and does work...for what it's intended for...it's just that you will end up angering someone. Estelle and Joshua benefit from being main characters that are fairly likeable, so the romance isn't a drag but just the opposite. However most of the time, Un less it's done well, that's what a romance is...just a sort of side plot that doesn't bring anything. Persona for example is generally about a major, single life changing event. That you have time for a romance at all is just an indulgence. So that became part of the gameplay loop: "during the limited time you have, you can ...cook, romance, watch tv, walk the dog...etc, and it's not really supposed to be important. I'm comfortable with this, because I don't really want a hard deep romance unless it's done well and central to the story.
I understand what CS does to Rean by making nearly every girl a choice...but you can't complain about the results...everyone has their own ship for him and other characters...not to pick in a group...but people deep into that get to have their pick, and complain about other picks, and it sells the game...even while it hurts it. I think the CS writers didn't want romance for Rean and solved that by adding romance as an option...as contradictory as that sounds. Persona on the other hand does...and makes a few mistakes in handling it within the games.
I think it can work really well with a game like Persona, if they cut the number of options and concentrate on a solid 2 or 3, shaping the games narrative around those potential options...that would still be an enormous game, but it would be a better one. As for Trails...I think the should go all Canon or none at all within the narrative...allowing relationships to happen outside of the harem expectation.
I think there is a lot of potential to the romance gameplay, though I'm not a romance person...what would be interesting is of making "wrong" choices caused characters to gravitate to other characters...you fail with a girl, but she likes one of your companions now...rather than a pass/fail the game requirement.
Dang so what trails got into the step bro I'm stuck idea early huh?
I'm here to help
Yes, I gave up on Cold Steel 4 because of that
If you can overlook it, I still highly recommend finishing CS4. The emotional payoff on all those interlocking stories is SO good.
Honestly, Pacing, padding and writing were bigger problems. It was the game of my divorce with the Trails series. I gave the series a chance to win me back with Reverie but even though it was decent, it unfortunately failed to do so.
Guess my trails journey is over too...
I wish devs would just tell their stories instead of making the player choose therefore creating a mediocre and subpar experience.
This is why I hate Dragonage and other Bioware games. Too many choices, that I don't care about.
No, just tell me your best story. I don't want to create your story, I want to hear/see what YOU created.
Exactly my thoughts. All the choices are a staple of the Western RPG genre, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm just not as crazy about WRPGs.
@@JustTheGems Yea, of course. There is nothing wrong per se with casual branching storylines in games. Imo, they are just really hard to do well and majority of games do not do them well.
Hence, I'd much rather have devs tell their single best possible story, instead of having them tell every possible story in a mediocre manner.
Great topic but I think it needs to go one step further. And that’s the over-sexualizing girls in these games. I understand the culture is different in Japan but the developers know who their audience is. Notice anime girls don’t look Asian at all just young white girls with big boobs and mini skirts.
It is definitely weird and off-putting that a lot of games tend to sexualize, you know... kids. Like, they make it very clear that these characters are children, and then they're like... Well, you get it.
It is possible to have player choice romance which can be well done in video games, Fate/EXTRA and CCC did that pretty well.
The solution would be to limit/cut the number of pretendants though, and Cold Steel went way too far with that (just like PERSONA games in a way), it's like having kids in front of an ice cream store "there's flavors for anyone!", not only it is pretty tasteless but also terribly shallow (it's hardly romance at all), by limiting/cutting the number of pretendants, it could give more time for the writers to add more depth to the romance parts and how the romance choice could impact the narrative and the growth of the pretendants who weren't chosen.
Too much choice (AKA "harem") will always prevent well written characters when it comes to their intimate relationships, nor they would be "allowed" to settle down with someone else because those who weren't chosen still needs to stay free for the taking, if not "a certain" demographic would throw a fit because it would be considered as an unfaithful act, it's pretty weird i know, "Poligamy" would be close to that mindset i guess, but unlike it it would be more like "I didn't chose you but you're still mine", and that's exactly what happened with Cold Steel, Rean just have headcanon love interests (Rean x Crow seems to be the more popular one in Japan), Falcom seems to be fond of one in particular (cough Alisa cough) but weren't allowed to because they were afraid of what could happen if they would've dared to make it canon (yup, angered Fujoshis can be quite dangerous XD)
I would love to see a game have like 3 romanceable characters and then take the time to write all the contingencies into the story. Arguably Mass Effect 1 does a decent job with this, but the sequels spread out the love points too thinly
Dude, yes. I don’t like the blank slate self insert MC in modern gaming either. It’s amazing that JRPG’s are my favorites. I think they are just having a hard time modernizing in some ways.
The industry definitely has clung to some old traditions, for sure.
@@JustTheGems you and I seem to have some things in common gaming wise. I’ll check out your channel for sure.
I agree completely, Rean having romance options is one of the weakest parts on the trails story (if not the weakest in my opinion), and like you said its very superficial when there are very few things that show the growth between these characters besides a cutscene or two. These things are more forgiving in one of games, but once there are sequels with characters if leaves gaps in the story, that cant be filled because you left it up to players choice. Another thing I dislike with Rean's in particular though, is not only does it make it not possible for Rean to have a canon partner later on in the story as they get older, but it cuts out all of his romance options from also having future relationships (you could argue that the players options didnt matter because high school/ young adult relationships may not last like real life and make some canon pairings, but i feel this affects the player making them feel like their choices didnt matter). It was super exciting for me when the wedding happened at the end of Cold steel happened because you seen that side relationship grow on the side, and its kinda disappointing that we wont get something like that from any characters in Cold Steel because of that gameplay choice.
It also crossed my mind that in Persona because you want to increase as many of your social links to improve your personas, as soon as you max out your relationship with a character you are very unlikely to spend, any more time with with, which is kinda a silly way to think of relationships and really shows the shallow nature of said relationships.
Romance options in JRPGs can work if the romance between the main character (the male or female self insert avatar character) and the companion/love interest (no matter what the gender is) is written well and sometimes original and a bit healthy.
I've definitely seen them work, but some devs seem to use them as a replacement for good character work, when really they should be there to enhance already-existing character work.
The biggest issue with how that was handled in cold steel for me is that it negates the opportunity for friendship arcs with "romanceable" characters. With all the females there are just the romance arcs that you ultimately have to end in a dissapointimg way for all but one. If the element of choice had to be there then put a choice in front of cold steel 4 and after that your choice is handled like the canon choice.
It does not bother me at all and I love the systems in persona and cold steel
NGL doing the romance stuff in Persona 5 Royal seemed a bit complicated and more of a chore than anything else. I appreciated how it paid off in the battles to develop those relationships, but without a guide I couldn't imagine trying to max out all the relationships. I used a day by day guide for Persona 5 Royal and still spent well over 120 hours on the game.
True - and I actually do like the "relationship-building" as a mechanic to enhance characters in battle. For me, where they lose me is in the story integration.
@@JustTheGems Totally agree. By the end of P5R I was "dating" every girl you could and all I got for it was a really funny scene on Valentines day.
Comment number three. I don't think romancing characters is a bad thing however it's done wrong. I don't get the same outcome / feeling like I did when I saw Cecil and Rosa. But then again that was 30 years ago too and I was a roughly a 10-year-old kid. So I get it. I think it does help with the story to have a love interest however it's not as organic as our old school games allowed it back then. I think that's a recipe where we go back to.
Yeah, for me the lack of an organic love interest is the biggest detriment. And the bloat doesn't help.
This problem is especially egregious in the most recent Fire Emblem games. While earlier Fire Emblem games sometimes had multiple romance options... they were far, far more limited than in the modern games, often with one or two more obvious canon pairings.
FE1/FE11, FE2/FE15, FE3/FE12 and FE10 only have single sets of pairings. (FE9 doesn't have any sets of pairings at all because it was always intended into leading into Radiant Dawn I think).
Basically, in FE10 a number of paired endings can happen if certain characters A Support. But usually characters who can marry only have one option they can wind up with. (Elincia/Geoffrey, Mist/Boyd, Micaiah/Sothe, Jill/Haar, Leanne/Naesala, Astrid/Makalov).
That's not the case in FE1/FE2/FE3 where in those games the pairings that can happen are just set in stone.
FE4, Awakening, Fates, and Three Houses allow virtually anyone to wind up together (well, in Three Houses anyone can wind up with Byleth, but non-Byleth paired endings are more limited). Oftentimes the final support conversation goes in a direction that has nothing to do with romance and has to awkwardly shift it into romance.
FE4 is the exception, and in that case, actually makes way more sense. Because in FE4 Gen 1, the Generation actually spans several years (there's a year-long gap between Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, and a 6 month-1 year gap between Chapters 3 and 4). There aren't support conversations at all, and the MAIN characters have restricted pairings anyway. Its only the side characters who can be paired up with virtually anyone. And you don't really get full awkward support conversations between these characters either, so it doesn't take a sudden turn.
Gen 2 is a bit different as basically everyone can be paired even Seliph. But that makes sense because this is the end of the game, there is no "third generation".
FE5 doesn't really have canon pairings persay except the newly added characters. Machua and Brighton can marry along with Miranda and Conomore. Nanna/Leif are heavily implied, but not out right confirmed because technically they can wind up with anyone in Genealogy (Thracia 776 ends timeline-wise at the end of Chapter 8 of Genealogy).
FE6, FE7, and FE8 have some characters with multiple pairings, but its very limited in this game compared to other games. That allows them to flesh out their relationships better.
Awakening and Fates have much bigger problems. Because all opposite-sex pairings MUST possibly end in a marriage relationship (and your Avatar can marry ANYONE of the opposite sex), somehow every single support conversation must inevitably lead to marriage. Which really strains belief in some of these conversations.
I think Engage drops the idea of marriage automatically happening at the end of all pairings. Three Houses, however, does allow Byleth to marry almost anybody (any opposite sex pairings and even some same sex pairings). In terms of non-Byleth pairings, however, these romances are a lot more limited, so its more realistic than Byleth being able to somehow wind up with anybody at the end.
Dang, there's a lot more to FE's pairing system than I knew!
fe4 the non main characters have lover conversations but only with max like 3 characters each. (most of them are on chapter 5 the last map for them)
they’re pretty well done and nothing is lost from not seeing them or having a pairing that doesn’t have one. it’s more just some insight than anything.
when they happen their story has pretty much ended for them anyways.
"who did the main character choose in the previous game"
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World LITERALLY did this lmao. You have to choose which character Lloyd chose at the end of Symphonia, even though the canon pairing is obviously Colette. (Though tbh, Lloyd/Sheena have a pretty strong romantic arc as well... the arc doesn't really work with anyone else other than Colette or Sheena, though.)
Dawn of the New World also decanonized the Kratos pairing because pairing with Kratos means Zelos dies (and Lloyd's canon ship automatically shifts to Colette).
Haha wow, I had no idea they literally did that (that's the one US Tales game I haven't played, actually...) They kind of do that - and more - in Trails into Reverie, too.
I hated the romance parts in Cold Steel. IMO, Alisa, Laura and Emma were the only appropriate choices. All of the others were just uncomfortable and creepy. I would have rather they had just written the story to be that Rean and Alisa were the romance and left all of the romance gaming stuff out. Even though I thought he and Laura were a much better match.
Yeah, I felt like, from a character perspective, the person who made the most sense with Rean was Towa. There's almost an equal amount of "story" dedicated to their relationship as there is with Alisa. But who knows!
@@JustTheGems Oh yeah, Towa. I agree, she’s a better match for him than Alisa, but I’d still go with Laura if I have to choose.
@@roniboboni1214 I also went with Laura. But if I were to write the romance into the core story I would go with Emma.
I think it can be good, and it can be fun, especially for people who want to make dolls kiss in a game, and I don't mean that as a derogative. I also think players like to feel special and connect with characters in the game, but it's not an easy thing to get right. For every Baldur's Gate 3, there's Fire Emblem Engage, which was just gross the vast majority of the time. I want games to prioritize the story, and I enjoy a good romance both scripted (Fire Emblem Echoes!) and player-controlled, but if you're going to put it into the game, it should enhance the overall game, not just be weird player worship or a dead-end "Sealed the deal, move on!" type thing, which isn't satisfying at all.
Yeah, the level of commitment the devs have to the romance system has a big impact on whether it works, even if someone's a big fan of player-controlled romance options.
“Haha”
Also, lol 😁
Persona 3 Reload was the first Persona game I ever played, and this issue was so apparent in there. Let's get to something the Trails series does right (for the most part) and that Persona 3 Reload dropped the ball on (big-time): if you are going to have multiple romance options for the main character, it is important that all the lady characters be LIKABLE. The lady who seems to have the best claim to be the "canon" love interest, Yukari Takeba, is someone I found deeply unlikable. I feel like the devs confused having a pretty face with having a personality. Same thing with Mitsuru Kirijo, I get it, she's the rich chick who doesn't know how common folk talk, but I found her character so cliche to the point of unlikeable. Again, just because you're hot doesn't mean you have a personality. Aigis? The whole android romance thing has been done to death, and Aigis is as tropey as any character in the game.
Of the main SEES members, I found Fuuka Yamagishi the most likable lady, but, let's be honest, it got grating how hard she was cheerleading Koromaru every chance she got. We get it, he's awesome, and he's clearly a very good boy, but you don't need to tell us that every two seconds. No to dating Fuuka. I eventually chose the quiet girl from the student government, because she was the only one with charm.
However, let's discuss Persona 3 Reloads biggest failing. There is one clear, obvious and inescapably obvious choice for best girl. It's not even close, best girl in this game is best girl by a gap so big, you could drive a truck through it. This is largely because there's only one girl who is kind, considerate, funny, helpful and speaks her mind while knowing when not to say anything. There's only one girl who has a life of her own outside protag-kun, only one who has interesting things to say.
That girl is Elizabeth, she's best girl, easily and by a lot. Yet, in Persona 3 Reload, best girl is NOT a romance option! How? Did you even understand what the purpose of a romance option was? I mean, okay, obviously, if Elizabeth had been a romance option, every single player would choose her, and none of the other ladies in the game would even get a peek. If Elizabeth had been an option, I'm picking her, no contest, easy choice, and I suspect most players would too.
However, if one lady was such an obvious choice for the romance option that you disabled her being an option to give the other ladies a shot, did you even really understand how to write more than one girl with an attractive personality? Contrast this with trails: I never got the appeal of Alisa, I admit, I'm a Laura and Instructor Sara guy myself, and the other ladies of Class 7 all get time to shine, but the point is, I like all of these girls. In Persona 3 Reload, I'm struggling to decide which girl to pick, because I really don't like any of the options (I chose the quiet girl from student government, but the athletic coach girl was my second pick), in Trails, the struggle is that I really like all the options.
My Main issue with the romance options on this type of games, is that I can't pick whoever I want most of the time. I usually select a male character when there's option, and I just have the female cast available as option when I'm interested in a male chara. Come on, you're adding that part in modern games let be a real free option, or let me skip it. In The Witcher 3 you can choose neither option, but you're losing lore.
That's why I love Harvestella, I can pick even the Unicorn lmao, and it's a post game stuff so it doesn't feel that forced.
Yeah, the way Harvestella did it was pretty smart, just keep it out of the game entirely. It's just a post-game little treat.
Yesss, I can't stand that, like in Persons 5, where it's like "be yourself!" with the unsaid addendum of "(unless your queer in any way)"
I'm so stoked you're talking about this! As a relationship anarchist, I have a loooot of thoughts. A lot of relationships in JRPGs seem so often to have undergone a commodification process. Do A, B, C, you "acquire" a relationship. It seems to focus on player agency (definitely over the romance able characters agency) since you are making decisions, but in reality it undermines both. The pre-packaged nature of these relationships makes it so there is an illusion of choice, and makes it so often feel uncomfortable (& sometimes pretty icky and problematic) because it doesn't properly acknowledge everyone's agency in the dynamic. It also is usually super cis-hetero-mononormative and focused on hierarchical dynamics. For instance, what agency do I actually have as the player if I am demisexual, aromantic & non-monogamous/non-hierarchical?
That being said, obv you are often RPing as a specific character, and I'm happy to roleplay relationship dynamics as a character that I myself would never engage in (as long as it's not something homophobic like Personal 5 for instance). I would prefer there be fewer "romanceable" characters so that it can indeed be more interwoven into the story. To have different ways in which you can build your relationship that keep better in mind every characters agency and avoid the capitalist & colonial "pay this to acquire this" vibe that too often happens. (I mean, aside from say a situation where you have a genuine SW and client relationship in a capitalist world, but I don't see JRPGs being that progressive tbh lol).
I want to see a more relationship-based story elements as opposed to like you were saying, a story, and then a side hustle to acquire a lover that seems kinda icky and not reflecting the fact that we affect each other in relationship.
I don't know how well I've articulated what I was wanting to say, and I don't even think there are many games that do this right out there. (While not a JRPG, one example I encourage people to check out if they want a really thought-provoking take on relationships in games is I Was A Teenage Exocolonist. They do a pretty solid job making every character have their own desires & agency that weaves into the story quite well)
basically, I would prefer fewer close relationships that are more realistic and complex, which provides for an easier ability to interweave it with the story. I am not sold on the AI idea (especially cause I would think it would unfortunately tend to drift towards hetero/homonormativity)
I think this is correct. I'm also fine with roleplaying the choices of a character who isn't like me (at least in theory -- as a straight guy, the vast majority of RP-able characters are very similar to me in that sense). But I'd also like to get to know the character I'm roleplaying as. I feel like there's a lot of peripheral focus on Rean's relationships with female characters, but his actual persona as presented in the game is almost completely uninterested in relationships or sexuality in any way. So it's a bit jarring to go into one of those "relationship" scenes and see him acting in a way that just doesn't feel like the "him" I've gotten to know in every other part of the story.
I 100% agree with your criticisms but I don’t agree with your conclusions. I think honoring player choice is more important than telling a story without flaws or jank. Interactivity and player agency are what make games unique from movies, tv shows, and books.
Maybe you are stating why I do not like Trails, Persona, and Fire Emblem series as a whole. I have liked some of the games in these series but it was the ones without romance stuff. I do not try to avoid them, I will get them on sale then try them for about 5 hours and most of the time I can not get past that.
Now to be fair Mass Effect triliogy is most likely my favorite RPG series. It also had the issue and it did not handle it well for the overall story. So it is not the romance as a whole that turns me off to the above series.
Sure allow us to do side content to learn more about the other characters with stuff like what is in this romance stuff, but not hard time based and can do it with all characters at almost any time.
Heck no reason to game-a-fy friendship, I get it comes from romance novel type games but it is just odd in games that should have hard stories. Think gameification if it was in RL and how most would abuse the heck out of it.
I do not think it will vanish, so ways I see to make it better.
- Make all main story scenes take into account all the different versions of friendship/romance
- if discontent maybe the character leave the party
- if like the pound fist / talk to the mc more
- if romance hug and flirt
- Make any scenes that are scripted take into account
It's ruining the storytelling that I can't romance Akihiko in P3 Reload as a guy 😤 wait that's not what this video is about?...oh. Awkward. Carry on 😜
It's true tho
Not to mention those relationships aren’t very inclusive 😢
Yeah, that's a whole other rant, like if you're gonna give the player choice, then really give them CHOICE.
Exactly! more respect is needed for both player and often character agency
It may detract from the overall story experience, but it's AMAZING for the fanfiction inspiration economy!
That is 100% true.
yes and fire emblem this pisses me off with their whole modern support system. and its obviously the reason they’ve been adding these self insert type characters.
it’s just lazy pandering.
i’ve always preferred less player choice in games meant to be focused on storytelling. I want the writers to create 1 definitive story to perfection, that’s actually cohesive in its theming and message in all aspects.
Xeno does this which is my fav series and I hope they never get on this trend.
also i’m playing sky the third right now and i’m sad to hear crossbell has this nooooo
Comment number two. AI. Working in IT, AI is here and it's adapt and overcome or become a dinosaur. I totally agree with your idea of using AI for games like this. When it makes sense though and your theory made great sense. I think it's a great idea
I get your point but japanese media is really bad when it comes to romance so i believe that jrpg that let you pick your girl/boy is meant more like a fun side activity and the developers dont want players to think much about it, when they choose a canon romance like ff8,10 and develop the story whit that relationship front and center then they want you to get more involved with that.
I think that's true, if they don't want to write a romance into the story, then having player choice allows them to sort of have it without having to worry too much about it. Expectations are lower when it's player controlled, I think.
Haha its funny because you choose the 2 worst games that handle romance terribly. Cold steel loves to push you towards the "canon" specific character and who ever you choose is just an after thought and adds nothing to the story and in persona its a complete joke that you wonder why the option was even there. P3r reminded how pointless that was given how the game ends and how they wrap of the story in answer. Games like rune factory or the famous dragon quest 5 do suchhhh a good job at it because your decision legit shapes a big factor in the story path you picked and old school games like thousand arms a dating sim made a huge impact to the ending regardless of the team. It needs to be done right so it could be enjoyed or at least give you heavy options like the growlanser series did. If not leave that out and give us a a nice canon love story like tidus and yuna
I agree, DQ5 does a fantastic job of making the choice actually, truly matter
insanely bad AI take. games are designed and written by people to express something; if you feel the characters arent real, throwing in a randomizer auto-complete machine is going to make your problems worse and more unpredictable, not better. AI is not a magical button that can fix story flowcharts, it is autocomplete, chatbots. That cannot add all the things you've cited as 'real meaning' to a story -the coded character preferences, the visual signifiers in scenes that show their relationship.I think there *is* a problem with the way romance structures are coded into games atm, and how sometimes they simply dont matter, but that is not how to fix it.
If you're talking about AI as it exists today, then you're correct. I'm not talking about that.
OH MY GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR NOSE!?
It's... it's bad. It's very bad. (But it's better now thankfully!)
Brilliant topic! But i disagree, romance options aren't ruining the storytelling its just a sign of bad storytelling or lazy writing ( yes even in persona).
This is one of the few areas that western rpgs has jrpgs beat. If you compare the copy pasted romance events from persona that as you said lack any real impact or consequences, to biowares dragon age or mass effect. Romance tracks through 3 games have real in game story impacts, and each romance option normally has a full questline that has lasting consequences for that character( they may die, leave the party, lose faith in themselves or you leading to disaster further down the main story, or they may gain skills , achieve a goal that furthers the over all plot and of course romance that feels meaningful).
I'd like to see these kind of things included into jrpgs but I think they follow the anime harem troupe as part of they're identity, dont know if that's cultural or not? Maybe they worried or bumping to the ero genre?
But it can be done.
I think adding A.i will just result in a roughlike romance system, which sounds bad.
Mass Effect 2 being the first game to make you say, "WE WERE ON A BREAK!!!" That was smartly implemented.
That sort of expansiveness is one of the strengths of western RPGs for SURE.
yes exactly! I think bad writing (& perhaps even just bad understandings of what it means to be in relationship with one another as people in many cases) is so often the actual issue
I mean let's not pretend that FF VIII and X's love plotlines don't come out of nowhere. And with Squall and Tidus being polarizing you run the risk of the player no caring. VIII focused on Squall and Rinoa to the detriment of everyone else. Especially Qusistis, she could have been replaced by Xu after disc 1 and nobody would have noticed. Selphie and Irvine get together, Zell gets with the Library Girl with pigtails AND hotdogs...Quistis doesn't even get her dozen cats that we all know she'll end up with eventually.
Right, just because a game doesn't have romance options doesn't mean the writers don't still have a job to do. If anything, it's even more challenging, because they have to write relationships that are compelling, as well as give fitting stories to all the other characters, too.
It has never really bothered me, have always seen it as a side quest type thing that do it if you want, it doesnt affect the main story, it would have more impact if it did change some things in the story
I did like how Mass Effect 2 handle all the relationships as it affected things in the final mission, basically if people survived the mission or not