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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- Note: This is the same (almost) as Video #98 except with better audio and less distractive lighting.
The importance of ranking watches for collectors is to help collectors get what they pay for. For beginners, this is especially important because mechanical wtches can be very expensive, and if you pay a lot for a watch, you want to get your money’s worth. - Jak na to + styl
Your vids are like a PHD in watches EXCELLENT !
Well, then I will call you Dr. Bass!! Kindest regards, Bill
I've watched this episode on watch ranking several times as well. Simply, thank you!
Bob, those rankings are to provide some idea for collectors of where watches are on a scale to give them a wider sense of value. Some lower on the tiers will hold their price better, but some higher are yet-to-be-discovered whose value lies in the horology, not the price tag. Take care, Bill
I like that you are honest in the levels of horology and not blowing smoke about how wonderful everything is. I will come back to video again.
Hey Victor, thanks man, and if you have any suggestions for a brand ranking, let me know. Cheers ,Bill
I think you have it under control sir
Good one Bill. When you really get deep into this matter, it's a real pain in the A**
But I do enjoy it.
Thanks.
Hey man thanks!! I agree with you Purple Haze, it's a real pain in the ankle! Cheers, Bill
Another excellent video Bill! Surprised that Tag Heuer is ranked in Strong Horology though.
Hi Tony, thanks man! TAG Heuer was a difficult one. They seem to have watches all over the horological map. With the huge number of Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève wins (8) - only Audemars Piguet, Piaget and Vacheron Constantin have more - it would have been hard to place them in Standard Horology; but their watches were aimed not at high horology but at the Sports Watch (especially aviation) market. Kindest regards, Bill
One can bicker with the rankings but wonderful overview and excellent starting point for a new or even seasoned collectors.I was not aware olf most of the exceptional brands.
Hey Galja, wise words! You got it exactly right. It's a starting point and to be used as a tool; nothing more. Some may have seen their watch ranked lower than they expected (or paid a lot of money for). That is the point why pay sky high prices for watches with standard horology? Cheers, Bill
Interesting and an obviously debatable hierarchy and thanks Bill for a very thought-provoking video. For me it seems a little generous to put Tag Heuer above Dubey & Schaldenbrand which I did consider purchasing (Grand Chrono with its heavily reworked and hand engraved movement) . In my modern watch collection I have a Fortis, Maurice Lacroix, Doxa, Omega Seamaster, Longines and Glycine. The Fortis Flieger is understated but I think is my favourite watch, the Maurice Lacroix Pontos S diver is very elegant and well put together (I do not understand why the "hate" for this brand), the Doxa Sub 750 Sharkhunter Military is very handsome and is the most admired watch in my collection, Longines Master Collection is the least well finished but has the most amount of complications (triple date, lunar phases and Chrongraph) but is truthfully my least enjoyable watch, Omega Seamaster 300 Professional Black Face with wave pattern is very practical as a watch (the perfect wearable dimensions for me) and the Glycine Black Jack Chronometer (only 500 were made) and looks like it is built to survive a nuclear blast.
Where would Eterna and Certina brands fit? I have a 1957 Eterna-matic and is my everyday (Beater) watch. The 1970's Certina Town & Country is my second most worn watch and gets a lot of positive comments for its general elegance. My odd ball watches are a Bulova Accutron (1975), Hebdomas Skeleton 8 Days made from gun metal (1920's) and a Mondaine Stop2Go quartz and all keep very good time.
I assume you would put the Glycine in the Standard Horology? I have been looking to get a Corum Admiral's Cup Tides (two tone) as it has a unique design and complications but am weighing it up against a B.R.M V12-44. Most of my friends have advised against the B.R.M - what are your thought on this brand? Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Hey Richard, it's probably a fool's errand to try and set up a hierarchy of watches, but the purpose is to attempt to equate value for what we pay for watches. It's a collector's hierarchy; not one for manufacturers. I began with the Watch-Rankings categories, took out a lot of their selections out, moved some up and down and ended up with what we have. TAG Heurer is a problem because they have won so many Grand Prix awards and have so many watches of ho-hum horology. I like Dubey & Schaldenbrand but they're still not doing much exciting as far as movement development that I can see. Any B.R.M V12-44 over £1,000 is a bit much. They want high horology prices for an ETA with a few tricks. There's nothing wrong with Standard Horology at Standard Horology prices, and Glycine makes nice watches at nice prices. What's not to like? Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks for your considered response and yes your points make good sense. The advice on the B.R.M is well taken and I will probably re-look at the Corum Admiral's Cup Tides (two tone) - it has interesting complications.
Really like this ranking Bill.
Thanks for sharing.
I'd also consider adding Greubel Forsey and MB&F in the exceptional horology tier.
BTW, I had a chance to see a Daniel Roth in the flesh last week and got really impressed to the quality of their work.
Realize they are part of the Bvulgari group now but it's definitively worthy a research about the manufacture and possibly a video about them in future programs.😊
Best,
Amintas
Thanks Amintas. I've already added Greubel Forsey and I will add MB&F and will have to do some rank switches. I relied too heavily on watch-rankings.com ; I assumed (wrongly) that they had done their homework, but not exactly...I'm also working to get some measure so that a single brand's range from Standard to Exceptional can be charted with the median used to define the brand. Know anyone who'd like to tackle Parmmigiani Fleurier? Cheers, bill
You are welcome Bill.
Boy, I didn't know about watch-rankings.com
A really cool site! Thanks for sharing.
Realize it's really hard to include all possible manufactures but I believe MB&F has conquered its place in the exceptional horology not only for the innovation driven in their timepieces but also for been able to effectively tell their story to the market.
Great idea about driving a statistical approach around watch brands!
Let me please see if I can find someone who could help us with PF.
Best,
Amintas
I agree with you about MB&F. What about others that are no longer in business but have lots of watches available on the used vintage market? Like Waltham? Cheers, Bill
Yes, Bill Waltham is another interesting one.
I believe these brands just reinforce the fact high horology can be found besides the holy trinity.
One just need to search carefully to find great bang for the buck out there ;)
Best,
Amintas
We have a son who lives in Waltham (just outside of Boston), and I feel obliged to get a Waltham watch at some time. I even went by the old Waltham factory, which has been converted into an apartment house complex. By the way, MIT worked with Waltham in creating some of the precision instrumentation that went into the Apollo program that sent a man to the moon! Which also reminds me: I've given talks at the Microsoft N.E.R.D. center at MIT-one of the most fantastic venues I've ever been in! Cheers, Bill
Excellent expose. You look at the whole company when placing in each category, not just price (although price can correlate), you look at movement, finishing, brand continuity, design, to name a few. Really good guide to watch companies. Be interesting to see where Speake-Marin places in that the namesake of the company left.
Hey Ryvr, thanks man! You bring up a good point about Speake_Marin. When a company with a eponymous name loses the designer after which the company is named, who designs their watches? Its days may be numbered. When Heyne left Lang & Heyne, Marcos Lang kept the Heyne name with the company I suspect it was so that his company would not be confused with A. Lange & Söhne. Companies like Breguet, Bovet, Moritz Grossmann, and H. Moser were revived by business people who never even met their namesake. Maybe the same will happen with Speake-Marin? Kindest regards, Bill
The other that comes to mind is Franck Muller. He left years ago, and the brand and prducts have seemed a bit random and directionless. I hate to bring up Rolex, but before Wilsdorf died he knew of which we speak, so he set the company philosophy he'd built up over the decades in which anyone running the company couldn't totally mess it up, at least not right away. The father/son Heiniger both did excellent jobs steering that company wisely. Because Wilsdorf also set up the company as a trust with a board I imagine all big picture decisions must go through a committee. How typically Swiss, in a good way.
Good point about Rolex. I know that Laurent Ferrier has a son in the company, but I imagine any watchmaker working for a company could keep on the founder's philosophy. In the software business the founders and developers get pushed out as soon as possible by the business types. It's hard to imagine F.P. Journe without François-Paul, though. Kindest regards, Bill
Excellent video Bill !
Hey Dean, thanks man! Kindest regards, Bill
Great video on a difficult subject. I thought the break down was a good starting off point for those new to the hobby.
Hey No One, thanks man! Also, keep in mind that these rankings should change as watch companies change; but as a starting point I hope it helps provide an overview of value choices. Kindest regards, Bill
An excellent and helpful video!
Hey Tim, thanks man! Kindest regards, bill
Hi Bill,
Really like your ranking and pretty much agree with your placements. Some brands with either history or recognition should enter the Sanders scale: Hanhart, Damasko, Mido, Laco, Frédérique Constant, Eterna, Glycine, Hamilton, Meistersinger, Schaumburg.
These three ones, I just don't know: Dewitt, Credor, Dornbluth
Hublot in the same category as Parmigiani is just...feeling bizarre.
Hi Jmra, there's room for adjustments. I started with the Watch Rankings, and made adjustments depending on how well I knew the watches. For some reason there's a lot of animosity toward Hublot, and while they're not my cup of tea, they've won several Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève awards. I think that Hublot's lower end watches are all that some see, but like I said, there's plenty of room for adjustments. Parmigiani Fleurier watches, on the other hand, are among my very favorite. Because two watches are in the same tier doesn't mean they're equivalent. It just means they've met the criteria for that tier. How well they've met the criteria is a whole other matter. Kindest regards, Bill
What about Seiko Presage with the 6R15 movement. Not the same level as Grand Seiko, but at least as high as Maurice Lacroix.
Longines recent Master Collection and Heritage collections would push them near the strong horology category. Longines' Avigation Bigeye won a GPHG award - competing with Patek, AP, etc.!
Indeed, last year (2017) their Bigeye won the Revival Prize at the Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève...but they weren't exactly competing with Patek & AP in that category. However, a GPHG prize is an honor, and I'm glad to see they won. A few years ago, they won a GPHG 'Public Prize' as well. Cheers, Bill
Very interesting and helpful list. I am sure that some brands will improve, and others decline, as years go by.
I believe you are absolutely right Edward. It's always good to have an idea of what we're paying for. Take care and stay safe, Bill😷
Why is Jacob and Co in strong? I would love to hear your opinion.
Also does complications help a brand go higher and lower in your ranking? And does in-house differ from third party?
Hope, I had no idea that Jacob & Co were strong. I know that 'WatchRanking' has them tops, but most of those rankings are based on price. Take care, Bill
You can request a Lange catalog at their online site Bill. I would highly recommend it. It has fantastic photos, history of the company, mechanical drawings of some of the watch movements, just a lot of information. It is hard to believe they would send this out at no cost, because it is basically a book. I would be drawn & quartered if I bought one. But man they are beautiful watches.
Hey Dallas, thanks man! A couple of years ago I got one at Betteridge Jewelers in Greenwich, CT and gave it to a friend. This will save me a trip to Greenwich and get me an updated catalog. Unfortunately, my favorite AL&S is one of their priciest - their fusee & chain!! Yummy! Cheers, Bill
Great video! What is your take on Haldimann watches? Personally, I really like the H11 watches but the retail price of CHF69000 seems a little excessive for a steel watch without any complications considering that watches like F.P Journe's Chronometre Souverain are much cheaper.
I very much like Beat Haldimann's watch Bob, but too expensive for me. I was able to get a couple of FP Journes before the prices went nuts! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Like this one. A few things could be debated, but in general, I agree ☝️
Thanks, Zeitgeist! I realize that trying to classify watch brands is a fool's errand, but just the process and classification is very educational - for me at least! Cheers, Bill
Bill, ever consider updating this video and see how the brands stand up to one another today compared to five years ago? If you recall we discussed on High Horology classification based on work hours put into watches, which clearly is not an a specific science. And much of this is based on some degree of subjectivity. As watchmaker strategies have evolved over the past five years, I would imagine their respective placement might have shifted similarly. Many have brought movements in house, many have gone after a broader market and sourced movements and some have been stagnant. By way of example, look how Nomos is introducing more high horological type in-house movements, Hermes as you mentioned here continues to leverage its relationship with Vaucher to do more in house movements to create really creative pieces. I just did a review on an A. Lange & Sohne Zeitwerk Date, and after quite a bit of research, I actually feel they are moving towards levels consistent with Journe (don’t shoot the messenger) based on the innovation they are putting in their movements and where Journe’s investment by Channel seem to be pushing them towards high production pieces. Furthermore, some of the “exceptionals” have begun producing at higher volumes or have become stagnant without creating further innovation and just resting on their past success. I love the Laurent Ferrier pieces in my collection, but I struggle to see them continue to be innovative. Just the same, I have fallen in love with my first H. Moser acquisition but wonder if their marketing “creativity” might be harming their strong horology perception. Just food for thought.
The idea, Michael, has been to get other collectors involved in refining the list. It started using the "watchrankings.com" site (which is pretty bad) and built from there to invite other collectors to offer their rankings modifications. Take care, Bill
What about Hamilton? They have modified ETAs like a lot of the others on the 'Standard Horology' list.
Bill, I have watched this, or maybe #98, at least 4 times and each time I get something new as I have had time in between to learn and digest more about watches.
I find this list very useful, not just another "useless" list as one of your commenters stated.
I have always found the term, "luxury watch", a bit of a misnomer when applied to the likes of Rolex, Omega, Tag, Zenith, Grand Seiko, Tudor etc. I look at them as premium watches. Of course there are exceptions such as when a particular model is jewel encrusted or in exotic metals. Inside, is often the same movement as a much cheaper watch. With gold at $1,700, a solid gold watch and bracelet, like the Rolex Day-Date, is a luxury watch. But, not a Submariner. And that is where your naming and ranking system makes a lot of sense. Of course at the highest end, like the $30 million Patek 6300A, we are talking the ultimate in bespoke luxury. I would put your FP Journe Ressonance as bespoke, albeit at a much lower price. I would also put it in exceptional horology.
So, if the standard Rolex et al. watches are premium, which watches are examples of entry level true luxury watches. I think a comparison may be useful here. A. Lange & Söhne basically starts where the standard Glashütte Original taps out. Of course, Glashütte Original, has some true luxury watches that are the equal of A. Lange & Söhne, but, for the most part, Glashütte Original make lower end models, putting them squarely into the premium watch category with high horology. And of course, one of yours and my favorites, FP Journe is a luxury watch through and through.
Finally. Here is an excerpt from an article in WatchTime on the Longines L707 movement used in the 4 retrograde Master Collection watch that I am considering ref. L2.739.4.71.6
"Longines’s Master Collection Retrograde has an exclusive movement with no less than four retrograde functions. How does it hold up under WatchTime’s exacting scrutiny? Find out in this in-depth watch test from our archives........However, Longines CEO Walter Van Känel wanted an all-new movement for the Master Collection Retrograde - one that would be exclusive to Longines - and directed the specialists at ETA to create one.
For its part, ETA welcomed the challenge, using as its canvas the Valgranges line of calibers, descendants of the classic Valjoux 7750, which are known for their large size and reliable rate performance. The results were not one but two reliable, user-friendly and, above all, high-performance calibers, each of which uses the traditional cam-and-rack construction. Version A07L21 (designated Caliber L698.2 by Longines) has four retrograde displays; version A07L11 (Longines Caliber L697.2) has three.
Caliber L698.2 has retrograde displays for the date, the day of the week, the time in a second time zone and the continually running seconds hand at 6 o’clock; Caliber L697.2 leaves out the seconds hand and replaces it with a power-reserve display at the same position. The Master Collection Retrograde watch in our test contains Caliber L698.2."
Thanks man! Basically, Karl, it's a way that collectors can get a hint of what they're paying for. If a watch has an ETA in it, that means that the watchmaker didn't have to make the movement... essentially, those watchmakers are case and dial makers asking for thousands of dollars for a watch with few resources in terms of craftsmanship. That's just one part of it, and while imperfect, it's more than just a list of how much the watches cost. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Thank Bill. You are excellent! in my humble opinion, I will upgrade Union Glashutte to Strong Horology
Never go over your budget, Lam...lots of good strong horology for good prices. Take care, Bill
I just don't get why people always feel the need to make negative comments. This list is fine, and furthermore I don't see any of the nay sayers making a video or even a list to justify the negativity. Bill you do a wonderful job, and I truly enjoy watching your videos and learning about watches I would of otherwise never been exposed to. So let those jokers talk all they want because we all know there will be a few in every crowd. One more point, I don't think there is anything wrong with disagreeing with someone's point of view, but if you do then support your disagreement with facts not gibberish. Thanks again Bill, and keep up the great work...
Hey Matthew, thanks man! Trolls on the Internet are with us, but most of the comments I get on this channel, while not always in agreement, are generally civil. If we all show some mutual respect, we're all good. Kindest regards, Bill
great info, what about mb&f, does it belongs to the high rank?
Deni, MB&F belongs in Exceptional Horology. Take care, Bill
Good video - is there an updated video?
Hi Frank, the purpose of the ranking system was to provide beginners with a rough map of what they're paying their money for, but of course, a lot of people didn't agree; so, I've asked for ideas on improvements and haven't gotten very many-just noise about what they think their favorite watches are worth. If you'd like to add to it or change it, feel free. Take care, Bill🎅
@@watchartsci hi Bill - thanks for the video. I found it entertaining and informative. I appreciate your insight and if you ever decided to do an update to the original list I think it would be well received.
Is this your ranking ( ie. based on your opinion ?). If it is based on your opinion, can you explain part of ranking based on movement finishing. For example, Chopard is ranked higher than Grand Seiko, so does this mean, without doubt, Chopard has a higher degree of fine finishing than Grand Seiko? And if so, have you actually taken apart movements of both brands & examined by 20X loupe or higher to confirm how well all the hidden parts of each movement has been finished?
Sorry for the question, but since you brought up the topic, I'm just curious how you justify your rankings
John, I used 'Watch Ranking' as a base, but it was out of date; so I tried to update it based on the criteria stated in the video. However the important thing is to help develop and refine tiers for watch collectors; not the brands. Some collectors have been very helpful and some have acted like jerks; So take your choice, what would be helpful to collectors in choosing the horological value of a watch or do you want to take out your pom-poms and cheer for your favorite brand? Take care, Bill
i have a 57 jewel zenith that was made for the nuke ppos
I know these kinds of lists will always be controversial, and people like to cheer their favourites, etc, but I feel like I should say: I think Franck Muller deserves a seat at the Exceptional Horology table. Well, I have only seen the perpetual calendar, but it is magnificent. Like someone else already said, maybe it makes more sense to rank individual watches rather than brands.
Hi Velocitor, the difficulty with Franck Muller is probably inconsistency. His caliber FM 3480 QPSE is impressive and so too is his award-winning Cintrée Curvex Grand Guichet, but the great bulk of his watches are not that kind of exceptional horology that distinguishes his watches above the others considered High Horology. His designs, though certainly stand out, though. Keep in mind that this list is a fluid one is and meant as a guide for collectors; not for manufacturers. Kindest regards, Bill
I didn’t see Hamilton listed on your watch ranking system. From what I’ve learned from watching your videos, Hamilton would rank as a standard horology brand. Is this correct? Also thanks for making sense of what criteria are used for ranking different horology categories. Thank you.
Hamilton represent quality Standard Horology. Take care, Bill
Wow! I have learned so much from you. Vielen Dank! Now, I may go with Nomos over Muehle Glashuette.
Hi Richard, thanks for that info. I've been reading about it, and it's an amazing watch. What size wrist do you have? Thanks ,Bill
@@watchartsci Snug at 6-3/4. Thank you, Bill.
very helpful
Thanks Markus, I appreciate that! Kindest regards, Bill
In the first few minutes you said Muhle Glasshute started making their own movements. Did you mean to Tutima Glasshute? Because I know Tutima Glasshute started making their own movements but I didn't think Muhle Glasshute had.
Hi Andy, thanks for pointing that out. MG may be inching toward in-house movements with the inclusion of the “woodpecker neck” regulator in their watches. Here's a good piece on MG you might like. www.watchtime.com/featured/windmill-in-a-storm-the-turbulent-timekeeping-history-of-muhle-glashutte/ Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Its hard to categorise some brands...For example, Arnold and Son, IWC and Zenith can be high horology. You also had a Nomos video recently that explained this point.. Also, the Breguet type 20 is something I wouldn't call high horology, nor is an ETA based Hublot.
algorithm007ify 👍 x2
Hey Algorithm, you are absolutely right. All of this is general grouping. Maybe everyone on this list can take a single watch brand and break it down model-by-model and then we can make a chart showing the range. Which brand would you like? Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill, why is tissot not in the standard list ? Grtz Tom.
Hey Tom, good catch! The Standard Horology list should have 2x or 3x longer, getting feedback like yours is quite helpful. Thanks, Bill
Great with a list even if it's some years old. I'm new to watches and now after a tudor, omega, rolex oysterquartz, I want a 10-30 year old handwound . I have been looking at Girard Perregaux they are strangly low priced.
Girard-Perregaux has made movements for some of the top watchmakers, and indeed they are a good buy. Lots of models and price ranges to choose from. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci thank you
Good morning sir, what your thought about eberhard? thanks alessandro
A good morning to you too sir! While I do not own an Eberhard, I do have one on my radar: The Scafograf 300. While it has an ETA (or Sellita) automatic movement, there's something very special about this watch. It won the 2016 Sports Watch prize at the Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève Here's a link to the details. They are reasonably priced, and you can find new ones under $2,000. www.eberhard-co-watches.ch/en/product/scafograf-300-41034-1 Kindest regards, Bill
Bill, the Scafograf was on my radar too because it fit into my budget. Ultimately I decided against it for a few reasons including I couldn't find one to try on. I was very surprised it won an award since it doesn't really cover new ground in design or movement. I ended up with a Bucherer ScubaTec and have been very pleased with it.
jam06477 Well if that works for you-it’s the very best one. Kindest regards Bill
Bill: in looking at the top two tiers, are there any that you would move up or down?
Hi Joel, yeah there're always watches that need to be re-classified outside of the tier of the watch company that makes them, and the tiers themselves are only guides for the general quality of the watches. Take, for example the exquisite astronomical watches of Christiaan v.dl Klaauw. Their Celes 1974 model has a Soprod A10 movement, which is an upscale clone of an ETA, but it also has a CVDK module for the celestial movements. While that one model probably doesn't deserve to be among the Exceptional Horology, it doesn't exactly fit any of the other tiers. It's Standard Horology in that it's using a relatively inexpensive movement (Soprod), but it's Exceptional in the CVDK module. So we might consider it "mixed tier". Ones that might be moved altogether are Lois Moinet to something stretched from Standard to High Horology, and Czapek should be bumped up to High Horology. What really needs to be done is for individual collectors of a certain brand rank different models on different tiers, which would be both more realistic and useful to the collectors. Kindest regards, Bill
I agree. Many of the brands have models in more than one tier. In the "standard" group, there is Ball. But, they have an engineer hydrocarbon series that easily would fit into the strong group. The train masters belong as standard. Same with Lacroix; the in house movements are wonderful and deserve a promotion, while their out-house versions are standard. That could be the case with so many of the watch makers, especially those with multiple models. My own list would place Grand Seiko into the high group. I'm sure that every Swiss company has examined that engine to see why it's so accurate. I tend to shy away from the huge companies, such as Rolex and Patek . I'm sure that each watch is carefully made ... but there are just so many. Every rich guy wears a Rolex. But, for resale, you can't beat Patek (advertising makes the difference). Some of the lines in the Swatch group are superb, but again, I like smaller independent companies. I don't know many of the bands in your exceptional group, but I certainly agree with Bovet, Journe, Maitres and Mille. There is just nothing better (my opinion) and these four certainly deserve to be in a tier higher than Patek, Rolex and the Swatch lines. I don't know the others in your top tier (maybe when I win the lottery??)
I like the fact that ML used names like "Pontos Chronographe Valjoux and the Pontos Chronograph Valgranges" that described their movements. I recently bought an ML Masterpiece with a Jaquet 736 movement. It's a far better watch than I realized. Kindest regards, Bill
Bill I just posted a link to this video on Tim's FB page "Talking time"... I hope you don't mind? I've always considered this a great guide for those new to watch collecting.
Fine WD... Tim's reviews are so good, I'm afraid to watch them. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci Thanks... Curtis here, I was your collection review #100 "The Practical Pilot". I'm retired for more than a year now. I finally got a Parmigiani, and I have you to thank for introducing me to the brand.
@@watchbydesign6214 Which one did you get WD? Bill
@@watchartsci Bill, I scored a white Gold, white dial Tonda 1950 for 71% off of retail (I paid $5,500 NIB, full factory warranty!).
I posted several times on my hunt for the perfect dress watch on Tim Mosso's FB page. I considered a WG,WD Saxonia Thin, PP Gondolo 5124G -001 (WG w/ Salmon Dial) and a Breguet Classique 7147 WG w/ the Feu Enamel dial.
I listened... "Poor price retention, a collectors best friend".
@@watchbydesign6214 Remember "value retention" is the value of the horology and craftsmanship; "price retention" is what one rube thinks he's going to get for it when he sells it to another rube. I recently sold a watch I bought a few years ago for double what I paid for it because of its value retention. Parmigianis are among those watches that keep their "value" whether their price goes up or down. Ask these geniuses what movement is in their watch and how it compares to a Roger Smith. They know the price of everything; the value of nothing. Let them buy their junk; you don't have to. Take care, Bill
Very good perceived value ranking ! Most of the big names are there ! There is one I like and dont see on the list : what about DeWitt, he should be up there, they make everything themselves !
Hi Normand...first of all, thanks for the nod on the rankings. It's impossible to set up such rankings w/o getting someone's nose bent out of shape, and often as not, they probably have a point. DeWitt is one of those companies that have too many 'mystery movements' in them, but at the same time, they have some wonderful watches. One of their Twenty-8-Eights in white gold was listed for $36,500 was recently offered for around $8,000 brand new. However, its movement is an ETA 2892. If you got to Shopworn.com you can get a DeWitt Academia Hora Mundi listed (brand new) for $4,500. I bet if you offered $3,600 (give yourself a 20% discount) they'd take it. I know they won a 2005 Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève prize for a tourbillon, and they claim their new movements are in-house, but the fine print is wonderfully vague on some points. They have some wonderful models, and I'm tempted to pick up that Academia Hora Muni...but I don't like it when a company is dicey in describing their movements. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks for getting back to me ! That is a great deal at that price : just feel sorry for Mr.Dewitt who is so passionate about his company ! Keep up the good work ! Regards
I understand that such a list is difficult to make, but How is Montblanc a Strong horology and longine only Standard horology?
Wil, it has to do with the base movement-Monblanc upgraded to Minerva. However, I have a Longines Ephemerides Solaires that was made in 1989 to celebrate the 100th Anniversary of the Longines name-very few watchmakers ever bothered to make an 'Equation of Time' watch. Take care, Bill
I think watches should be classified, not brands
I agree Erik. Which brand would you like to break down by model? Kindest regards Bill
Zenith!
WatchArtSci Nomos, Sinn
Leigh, go ahead with Zenith. (one of my favorite..) and break each model down in terms of movement, purpose (e.g., dress, diver, pilot, etc), movement, and which Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève prize has each model won. I'm not being facetious ; I'll be doing the same thing with other brands, but I need help!! Cheers, Bill
Great Erik! Those two and Czapek. Cheers, Bill
Hi what do you think of a Gallet?
Hi Peter, it seems to be a 'Race Car-Sports' watch. I'd really like to find out more about the movement. It's advertised as a Vaucher-developed movement, but I don't know whether it was based on Vaucher or not. I have an inquiry in to Gallet about that. Kindest regards, Bill
Not sure about the placement of Tag Heuer in this category. Your placing them in the same category of Omega, IWC and Rolex? I think they belong in the standard category.
Hi William, that's what a lot of people think, myself included to some extent. However, TAG Heuer has a wide range of watch offerings, has won a boatload of Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève awards, easily surpassing both Omega, IWC and Rolex (...actually Rolex doesn't count since they never have entries in the Grand Prix.) If we took the rankings by sales modes instead of models actually on the market, they'd most likely be lower, but so would IWC and Omega. Kindest regards, Bill
Good points, I like some TAG models. But TAG lost credibility when they had their "Cal 1887" movement made by Seiko and then lied about doing it to the public, until they got caught. They got caught in the act. Respectability in the watch industry is huge, they lost a lot with that stunt. www.calibre11.com/1887-calibre/ also check out czcams.com/video/ikxKBQtFz3I/video.html
Not a big TAG fan either, but some collectors, love 'em. Kindest regards, Bill
On what planet is Grand Seiko only on par with TAG Heuer?
Hey Kevin, I had wondered the same thing. The problem with TAG Heuer is that most people only see the tip of that iceberg ... the tip that has ETA movements. However, they have another side that goes to the top of scale to the Aiguille d'Or. (Check out www.gphg.org/horlogerie/en/prize-list-12 ). TAG Heuer has won more Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève prizes than Patek Philippe or F.P. Journe. Any decent ranking system needs to have strata within a watch company, but in terms of counting models with outstanding features, TAG Heuer has more than Grand Seiko by a mile, but most of the sales of TAG Heuer are for their less noteworthy offerings that are clearly eclipsed by Grand Seiko. Kindest regards, Bill
How familiar with Gerald Genta watches are you? The watches made under his name: are they just branded Genta or are they Genta to the core? I realize there is high horology in his retrograde movements, but what about a Gerald Genta watch that is just time and date?
Ressence = high horology? The are using eta ébauches.
You'd be surprised how many high horology brands have snuck in ETAs! They'd all be Standard Horology if the criteria was a single joker in the deck! Kindest regards, Bill
you put Hublot on the same step as ALS? why? 😅
I was surprised too, Dnb.. I started with www.watch-rankings.com/watch-rankings/ and adjusted as necessary. Watch-rankings had A. Lange & Hublot in the same tier. Apparently, Hublot had won several GPHG awards and they have several excellent models in addition to the ones most people are familiar with. If anyone asked me what I'd rather have...it would be the A. Lange & Söhne. Take care, Bill
I gotta say...I've got huge problems with this list... Starting with Richard Mille being on it. For me, the tiers are somewhat analogous to hand finishing. So fp and urwerk should be a tier or so down while Arnold and sons should be a tier higher. Then there's the whole levels of watchmaking... Entry level Patel is not the same level as entry level Lange...
So, let's see your "problems with the list" and your corrections, Misterratoz. The purpose of the list is to generate discussion and get updates. Awaiting your 'adjustments..." Take care, Bill
when rolex bought stalz in 1909 they capped the war effort watch but the english only bought 15 jewel watches not superlitive yet but only 3 positions
Please use grammar and full words for comprehension. Take care Bill
A much better system of categorisation than Archie's system: shitters and non-shitters. Good work Bill.
Hey Harry, thanks man! I need to work on it, and I'm open to any suggestions. Kindest regards, Bill
breightling is eta now you cant buy the movements there unless you buy a series
Patrick Braine not correct.
Breitling has both ETA and in-house, Patrick. Take care Bill
So Hublot is considered high horology?
Yes, Trinajsk. I was surprised too. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci Very interesting, thank you.
I would have spent a bit more time on photos of your own exceptional watches.I would have loved to see them and I am sure so would your fans.Thanks again.Perhaps in a separate video your Bovet and I think F P Journe
Hi Galja! I have videos on all of my watches, and the reason I don't spend more time on them is that it would be a pretty limited discussion. Here's one on my Bovet 1822 19Thirty Fleurier: czcams.com/video/ZSCwsSc66cM/video.html So, you are absolutely right! Kindest regards, Bill
I imagine Yelang, Casio, Nite, Marathon, Armour Lite, Citizen, Timex, Carnival and Seiko are either outside the bottom of the frame, or entirely absent. Unfortunately, you've missed my entire collection. :-(
Well, it’s just an okay list. Where’s tissot? That name alone has a special place in watch industry. Not to mention orient in house movements (oh yes, it’s not only just swiss or germany perspectives). Longines and maurice lacroix are the brands that should be mentioned in better positions, imho. I.e many companies had beaten the cosc standard with their own in house movements. Even an affordable seiko movement could last decades.. Quality and creativity in this industry are getting equal among companies nowadays. Doesn’t matter how old your company is in this industry..
Hi YV, I agree the only measure should be the quality of the product; not past laurels to rest upon. Tissot was designed to be Omega's affordable sibling (their plan; not mine), and it's done some interesting things. I recently got a Maurice Lacroix and was surprised and delighted by its quality. I tried to make the point that the list required two things: 1) A recognition that most watch companies were in more than a single tier; and 2) watch collectors should get involved in making it better. So welcome! Cheers, Bill
I would list Orient and Seiko as just entry level to horology as they're not regulated. Grand Seiko would be Strong Horology. Credor would be high horology.
Zenith is a manufacturer
Hi Jose, I hope I didn't mean to imply they were not a manufacturer. If I did, please let me know the time-point on the video where I did. Thanks, Bill
I think you missed the right classification for Czapek.
Yep, here's a brand you could take and break down model-by-model for starters. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci they have double barrels in their recent launches
You're the man Erik! Go ahead and evaluate Czapek models and give each an honest rating. Tell me about how they're using the double barrels: 1) Constant force 2) Extending charge. Cheers, Bill
you said that louis moinet cant be trusted how come he is at the top /.
That was a residue of the "Watch Rankings" Steve-I would very much like to see LM do some seriously good horology with their own watchmakers or work with some of the top names in watchmaking.Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci thank's
Moritz Grossman is in desperate need of a new designer.
If find them ok; not too exciting, though Robert. Their women's watches are real beauties, but mucho expensive! Take care Bill
Hublot is not high horology...
Hi VR...why not? According to Watch Rankings they are and the Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie has them in the same category as Patek Philippe... (www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/brands/) Not a big fan of Hublot myself, but it's not about me and my tastes. So tell me why Hublot is not HH. Thanks ,Bill
Sorry but the number one watch is the Grand Seiko
Hi Chris ... do you have a Grand Seiko? Trying to get info on owner's experience with their watches. If so, tell us about it. Thanks, Bill
love of the game but a lost art .The game is made when the price pays the game and in my life more watches i have the more i like the high low end swiss but really tooled
What game Patrick? Take care Bill
Where does movado stand?
Movado is a solid Standard Horology, but their designs are so unique and interesting, they're sort of in a league of their own. Kindest regards, Bill
Brands are different from watches Bill. Sinn watches are world class, Helmut Sinn was and will always be a legend in the horological world.
Hi Craig. I need to learn more about Sinn. Cheers, Bill
the ten watch runoff are exceptional and time consuming buy 1937 patek 9 watchmakers to 9 years to make one 1000 watch runoff
Patrick, still need something a bit more complete...like sentences, grammar, casing and context. Take care Bill
gublin made patek lange is the son of patek zenith made every movement since time for rolex for all of the war movements even for the nuke power plants baume made cartier for the last 10 years
Hey Patrick, you're all over the map--Patek Lange? Whozat? Take care Bill
Oris = Strong.
Thanks Jonnie. Take care, Bill
I'd put Rolex in High.
Hi Jim, while I like Rolexes a great deal and they are part of the Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie, they are considered 'Perimeter Partners.' There's nothing wrong with Rolex belonging to the Strong Horology Tier, but they really don't fit well with High Horology, while they are the strongest of strong horology. Kindest regards, Bill
Nah, omega are a better movement manufacturer and GS has better finishing.
Rolex make a good case, they just bought out their movement manufacture in 2004 and never spend money on the finish of the movement, hence the steel casebacks.
Solid watches but let's no confuse high horology with most hyped/marketed
I strongly disagree with your scale .How can you locate zenith at the same level of Tag,Omega and Rolex at the same,Zenith underneath AP and Breguet.Cartier jointly with Rolex,Breitling at the same classification as Rolex I find it preposterous honestly
Hi Francisco, how would you classify them? Thanks, Bill
the zenith daytona crono sells for 14600 the rolex movement 12b thou start taking $ amt inventory
Patrick, you're saying that the Daytona with the Rolex movement sells for $12,000? Thanks Bill
Si te paseas por Barcelona mejor llévate un Casio
Gaztela, caminé por Barcelona y encontré una tienda por departamentos con muchos relojes excelentes... como Jaeger-LeCoultre. Con cuidado, Bill
You didn't come to the point in each categories.
Ryan, they are general groupings ... not for the sellers, but for collectors. What "point" do you want? Take care, Bill
Hublot High Horology - the use an ETA movement. Very subjective list and I for one disagree with many of your ratings.
Hi Jonathan. Those rankings began with watch-rankings.com so they're not wholly mine. However, I did make changes moving some up; some down based on changes in the companies, innovations, awards and the base rankings. The most difficult ones were those like Hublot that included some models with ETA or other low-cost ébauches. It turns out that Hublot had won 5 Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève awards (the same number as Girard-Perregaux, Greubel Forsey, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Van Cleef & Arpels and Voutilainen), received several patents and other innovations, many of which were with women's watches. Since I don't particularly care for Hublot designs and as you note, many of their lower cost ones contain ETAs, I too was a bit surprised. However, they did meet the criteria for HH. Having said that, the reality of most brands is that they have models the belong on more than a single tier; Hublot certainly being one of those. What I've invited collectors to do is the rank the individual models within a brand to get a more accurate ranking that we can use when considering a watch purchase. So far, no one has stepped up and taken even a single brand and ranked the different models within that brand. Maybe you'd like to be the first? Kindest regards, Bill
Van der Klaauw above A. Lange & Patek ? In terms of quality of finish, hell no 👎🏻.
Pateks are now stuffed with silicon hairsprings and A. Lange has had the caution breaks put on creativity by their masters at Richemont; while Christiaan v. d. Klaauw has been producing new creations winning Grand Prix awards. Check this out. [ www.gphg.org/horlogerie/en/watches/cvdk-planetarium-eise-eisinga ] Pieter, keep up with the times.... Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci And what exactly would the Van der Klaauw equivalent of a Lange Tourbograph Perpétuel "Pour Le Mérite”, let alone a Patek Sky Moon Tourbillon be ? I'll wait ... These brands have contributed way more to high horology than Van der Klaauw could ever hope to do. Cheers
@@pieterjanpeterson993 I guess you still don't understand. Christiaan V. d. Klaauw makes the finest astronomical watches on the planet, and so I could ask you what does PP or Lange have to match their astronomical watches? The answer, of course, is nothing. What major GPHG awards have Patek won or ALS won recently: again, nothing. CVDK has this: www.klaauw.com/eng/winner-of-gphg/ Let me ask you something else: Both Rolex (Prarchrome) and H. Moser et Cie (Straumann) have developed hairsprings using transitional metals (niobium, zirconium for Patek / niobium, titanium) to resist magnetic irregularities in timekeeping, but PP stuffed silicon in theirs: why? (That's also why they lost their Geneva Seal.) What hairsprings does AL&S use? Do you even know? Being impressed by hyperbole should not be a reason for snorting, 'hell no!' Take care, Bill
A decent attempt at an unnecessary list that only the uneducated would want. Most real watch enthusiasts buy watches that "call to them" for one reason or another. Love that Bremont is not even on there. I would have added Mido and Eterna on your Standard Horology. I would have considered moving Longines with TAG due to their history. I see major collectors have Patek, Rolex, Heuer (pre-TAG), and oddly Longines in their collections. I would have also moved BALL up to same tier as Omega and Breitling... they have real history/horology with US railroads.
Thanks Shipmate... I think ... So you'd take this unnecessary list for the uneducated and do what? Improve on it so that the uneducated would be less uneducated? I'll add the Mido and Eterna to Standard Horology. Do me a favor and take one more look and check out what the criteria are based on. I'd love to add Bremont, but they'd have to be with the Standard Horology because they don't make their own movement. It's not an easy task; so if you'd like to help, be my guest. Cheers, Bill
My point was, just like you commented, when you buy a watch - you buy it for personal appeal (not based on a list). A list is for folks who don't know better.
I completely agree that Bremont should just be Standard Horology. I believe it is greatly overpriced for what you actually get. Thus, you list would help uneducated watch buyers from buying Bremont for $5,000+
Totally agree, Bremont Standard Horology despite their efforts at pushing higher.
I'm confused about Shipmate's statement. "an unnecessary list that only the uneducated would want'. So, he would not provide a guideline for people? It is a necessary list because MOST people think Rolex is the best and probably never heard of Blancpain or H. Moser. And some people who are collectors don't know everything, but I guess Shipmate does. It's nice for the rest of us, to see who's considered Exceptional vs. High and think about getting a watch, that takes it to the next level.
not correct
Ok Patrick, explain why... and try not to be so verbose. Thanks, Bill
the uglier the watch, the higher horology it is :)
You got that right! But that's only true for a few. The highest horology would be the Philippe Dufour Simplicity. What do you think of it? www.hodinkee.com/articles/philippe-dufour-simplicity-at-auction Kindest regards, Bill
WatchArtSci ohhh that's a beauty. I like clean dial. Complex one not for me.
I agree with you. Clean and simple. Kindest regards, Bill
Jacob & Co is a joke. It’s is NOT in the same category as Rolex.
First off, thanks for the edit, Shazbot...that speaks well of you. Like I said, I started out with the 'watch-rankings.com' list and made changes to better reflect where different watches were. Also, I've asked for assistance from collectors who don't agree with the rankings. Tell me in detail why Jacob & Co should be in a different tier than Rolex. What kind of movements they have and something about their quality. It'll help you learn more about both Rolex and Jacob & Co by doing so. Thanks, Bill
WatchArtSci love the channel. While I’m not an expert, I know enough about J&C to have an opinion. I know they started with their oversized colorful watches with off the shelf movements made popular by hip-hoppers. Then Jacob, owner of the Jacob and Co retail jewelry shop and not a watchmaker, went to jail for a few years for lying to the Feds to, allegedly, help a drug dealer hide assets. Now, they make complications for complications sake, but what do they do with it? They make gimmicky watches that play the Godfather theme, or have functioning roulette table; another one with not one, but two tourbillons that move in a clumsy manner. They are the opera singer that doesn’t understand the words to the song. It’s not a credible brand to me. At least not yet.
The fact that their founder went to jail and the brand is popular among hip-hop performers isn't enough to condemn a brand to 'fashion' watch status. Rolex is a favorite among celebrities untutored in horological value as well: (see for instance... www.reddit.com/r/WatchesCirclejerk/comments/5achks/check_out_this_rolex_in_its_natural_environment/ ). After Mr. Arabo (aka: 'Jacob the Jeweler') was released from prison, he went from 'bling' watches to some really amazing timepieces sans the bling...selling for a half-million bucks. The namesake 'Jacob & Sons' is based on Jacob Arabo's first name (that would be like naming 'Arnold & Son', 'John & Son') but since Rolex is a made up name too, there're no demerits for the name. What baffles me is that while Jacob Arabo doesn't seem to be a watchmaker himself, his movements are by a Jacob & Son-owned company and they are quite worthy of higher horology status. This is a tough one Shazbot...and I'm glad you brought it to my attention. Let's see if we can find an objective way to classify these watches. Off the top of my head, I don't know of one. Kindest regards, Bill
This video is laughable... Cartier doesn't even make their own movements. How can they be in the high horology???
Hey Smr144, check watch-rankings.com to help you figure it out. Also, their top watchmaker won the Grand Prix for Watchmakers and one of their watches has a movement by F.P. Journe and two other top watchmakers. I guess you haven't heard about Calibre de Cartier...their in-house movement. But hey! Thanks for the note...gave me a good laugh. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci so because of that ONE in-house movement they are in the high horology group?? That's ONE step away from Tiffany & Co...
Smr144, Cartier is not one of my favorites for several reasons, including they're not very forthcoming with their movements-a Ballon Bleu might have a quartz, an ETA or an in-house movement. However, you really should learn more about a watch company beyond the stereotype of a "Fashion Watch." Carole Forestier-Kasapi deserves a lot of credit, and while the bean-counters at Cartier certainly pull back on R&D and in-house development, she's done a lot for the horological side and that should be recognized. Check out this piece: www.watchpro.com/cartier-wins-best-watchmaker-prize-at-grand-prix/ While not a tip top watch company, like the proverbial camel, they've stuck their noses under the HH tent. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Just so that you know, Bill, the reason Cartier created an "in-house movement" (and I wonder how really "in house" it is) is because the Swatch Group was cutting off the supply of ETA movements (you can use this new info for another of your videos ;) ). It was not because they were interested in R&D. ;) Ulysse Nardin, Panerai, Tag and IWC, among others, were happily doing the same: outsourcing movements from the Swatch Group. Sometimes they don't even modify or decorate the movements. Which begs the questions: what the hell Ulysse Nardin is doing in the high horology group?? (LOL!!! BTW) Why A. Lange & Söhne is not in the top group? And to be honest, with their decades of patents and reliable in-house movements, Rolex should be in the high horology group. BTW, did you notice that Rolex and Tudor are in the same group??? :) Your list, at best, is 50% wrong...
Let me guess...you're a Rolex collector. A lot of watch companies switched because more customers were demanding manufactured movements, and if the companies wanted ETA, there was always Sellita and Soprod. So while there was some pressure by those you mentioned who claimed they were forced to create their own movement by ETA's policies, there were alternatives. You and I agree that UN, Panerai, TAG Heuer and IWC are less than forthcoming with what's in their watches; unlike some companies that rest of their laurels (and patents), innovation in mechanical watchmaking is important. The problem with that list is only part my doing because it began with a base created by watch-rankings.com; further I've invited others to break down a company into its individual watches in a cross-tier fashion. No one has done that, and you're welcome to. Cheers, Bill