Ranking the trade bonuses in AoE2
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Which civilization has the best trade bonus, and how do they all compare?
0:40 The test
2:02 Italians (-50% trade unit cost)
2:55 Portuguese (-20% unit gold cost)
4:15 Spanish (+25% trade income)
5:25 Indians (+10% gold income)
7:21 Bohemians (Markets work 80% faster)
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition - Hry
From spirit of the farm to spirit of the trade.
So basically Spirit of the Economy ^^
One of his weaker vids tbf. Realistically Italians have their 40 carts way faster than Bohemians as the main impediment in real situations is cost not creation speed. Worst case you make an extra market lol.
and yea that has a lot to do I feel with the production time. Vids used to be far apart but very precise, now they scratch the surface and dont include all the exact scenario's we want spirit to explain.
For instance, a tatar steppe lancer hitting a sicilian cavalier up hill through a hussite wagon ^^
Spanish and Bohemians on same team with their bonuses:
Laughs in Habsburgs
^bump
thought the bohemians hated the habsburgs I mean they rebelled
@@Cecilia-ky3uw Yeah. We wanted the Portuguese bonus instead.
@@jcbscreations132 the portuguese hated the habsburgs presumably bc i believe spain probably invaded portugal theres no way they havent
@@Cecilia-ky3uw Unfortunately for Bohemia, the English team bonus is rather underwhelming.
Bohemians, Spanish and Portuguese in a team of 3 seems like a pretty strong late game combo.
Add Turks to that and their gold heavy army will become an unstoppable force
Pay the turks for 200 janisary
Well yes but would you get to late game with that vs the meta civs?
@@moon2schyzois husite wagon enough?
@@arya.n.8252 Against top tier paladin civs, no.
I think I would've loved to see the graphs start at negative gold numbers so we could see when the carts pay for their own gold cost. Other than that, great video! I loved seeing the intricacies of trade benefits.
Love this idea!
Even better, have the graph assume that each cart is purchased with perfect timing as soon as the previous one finishes being built. So the Bohemians' line would plunge more sharply at first, but then recover sooner.
@@Adamantium9001 That doesn't make a whole lot of sense as you'd still spend that amount of gold to make these trade carts and two we already often buy trade carts like this as they already are quite expensive. It would just make the graph messy.
Trade route from Spain to Bohemia and back in a horse cart feels much longer then 133 tiles...
Good one.
It would probably be faster done by sea, from Spain through Hamburg/other Hanseatic Cities, or down from Mediterranean through Austro-Hungarian Trieste.
Spanish: Never thought I'd trade side by side with a hussite!
Bohemians: What about side by side with a teammate.
Spanish: Aye! I can do that.
I can't believe Spirit Of The Law didn't cover water bonuses in this video. Missed opportunity to discuss the Berber 10% ship movespeed bonus and insane FU Italian Trade Cogs (and how does Shipwright and Silk Road discounts stack, etc)
Should be mentioning trade cogs!
If I remember correctly you said they collect faster than carts after a patch like two years ago.
I think in another vid he said they hit each other more so the bonus is almost negated because of it.
Watched a really old video yesterday. I think you extremely improved over the years, especially your voice performance. Cheers to that and congratulations!
that might be, but i still miss the old intro music
@@alexmuller6752 SotL intros on spotify when
*Trade offer*
I get 20% cheaper units. You get 80% faster working market.
*Bohemians 🤝 Spanish*
Summary of the video - Spanish pocket with Bohemians and Portuguese in flanks is the best 3v3 late game trade combo.
or instead of protugese be indian
Had a game where I was Spanish in the pocket. Sadly had a slow teuton on the left and decent English ally. Against goths, franks, and Japanese. Didn't even make it to trade
@@EpecFale rip lol imagine facing japanese with teutons and facing goths and franks with the english
@@EpecFale Teutons in flank is a very bad civ. Even if they are up against Goths, it is very hard to stop Goths for them in TG flank.
I mostly play black forest with players vs AI and I can’t emphasize how much I love the Bohemians team bonus
Peak casual stuff there. (i love it)
Bohemian team bonus is a wood bonus. You can increase the production of trade carts by building more markets! In your test you could have used 6 markets instead of 3 (525 extra wood) and the result would have been the same. In this case, even the saracens bonus is better!
Markets take up a lot of space and not everyone builds multiple markets
@@biggali If you have the wood income to comfortably support continuously support producing from one market with the Bohemian bonus, then you can also afford the extra 175w to build another when you don't.
Maybe I am overthinking it, but although Bohemian bonus gives you trade carts faster, it also requires you to spend the initial investment faster. That means you might not be able to afford fully utilising this bonus. On the other hand, your carts are on the field faster and they gather gold for you earlier compared to other civs.
I was waiting for him to address this. Is it even possible to maintain full trade cart production from three markets at the same time with the Bohemians? If it is, it is still a major set back on your eco. This would actually cause it to not be beneficial initially.
Players often struggle keeping normal speed markets working
If you queued them at the same speed as the other civs, you would still get a faster return on investment on each cart. But, it wouldn't be as great as he said, yeah.
Bohemian bonus is awful. The simple fact is that any civ could just make 5-6 markets instead of 2-3 if booming tradecarts faster was so important. Heck Saracen bonus is strictly better than Bohemian one as you can build 2 markets instead of 1 for cheaper.
Really poor analysis from SOTL on this one.
@@markvanderwerf8592 agreed. The more I think about it, the worse of a bonus it is.
Team: Chooses Spanish, Bohemians, and Italians for those sweet trading bonuses.
Also team: Loses in Castle Age.
Lack of an ecobonus, maybe, but those Spanish conqs and those Bohemian chemistry units are not to be laughed at.
Just wall
Cool video! I take issue with your Bohemian calculation, as any civilization could achieve the same by just building extra markets. Also, the gold/wood that they have to funnel into it is required earlier which makes the transition into 40 trade carts harder to pull off. I know it's impossible to capture every detail in a test like this though, this is just one that jumped out at me.
My bazaar strategy is to use the Saracens' -100 wood market as a nice production bonus. The reduced wood cost greatly impacts the villager second cost per market constructed. Assuming bow saw is researched, it averages out to a 69% increase in production speed by just building more markets at a lower cost.
Yeah being able to afford them earlier and faster is nice
As a data analyst, your videos make me happy.
I think you are underselling the cost reduction bonuses.
They dont only save gold, the lower cost also allows the player to recruit more trade units earlier.
It's debatable however which bonus is better in that regard.
I think he also didn't mention the Bohemian bonus' requirement of paying for more carts earlier, though it's hard to factor that into these graphs.
SoL I was expecting at the end that you would determine which civ combined with other civs team bonuses would be the strongest. Always happy when I see that I have a new SoL video to watch. ❤
An unique trade unit might be a cool idea for a potential new civ's team bonus. Just saying.
Venice civ idea?
Maybe venice?
If they decide to go this way with unique units, they might as well add a civ with a unique unit being a villager with higher stats or faster gathering
Give it pierce armor and if it gets to an enemy market it takes gold from them.
Malians : sell villagers as slaves at the market.
Always love some good math videos. Miss see the intro bro
Hey Spirit!
You missed one Civ. Berbers with their faster Trade Cogs.
Seeing your start... Are trade carts vulnerable to the pike line? What about American civs since they are not horse pulled? Slower? What happens if you convert them, do you keep the gold?
And does the dock get the same effects?
the americans and horse drawn behave exactly the same
literally just a graphics change
@@HECKproductions they never skipped leg day
Spear line doesn't do bonus damage to trade
They should add a unit with bonus damage against villagers and trade units. And maybe a civ with a bonus that gives trade more health or armor
@@HECKproductions I'm pretty sure the American trade carts move slower. I've never seen a human drawn cart move as fast as a horse drawn one.
Honestly you should have made the math on spanish, bohemians and portuguese, since the portuguese bonus does indirectly buff trade i think a graphic with the 3 whould be nice to see
SOTL, so many of us are looking for you in Red Bull Wololo. Hopefully you can panel in future Wololo events :)
Spanish gold bonus as always!
SANTIAGO!
Will you ever make it to the rank of champion?
Indeed, you can compensate Bohemian bonus with a few extra market, but you can't do it same thing for the Spanish bonus.
@@robertverburg8262 naah he's from kuala lumpur
Also a small thing you forgot about Spain and Portugal. If they can get the same amount of unit production with less trade carts (due to their bonuses) then they'd also have less clogging in their trade lanes making them slightly more efficient.
It's really curious that there is no AOE 2 civilization Tha has bonuses on carts speed, nor hit points
The closest to that is Berbers with their 10% faster moving ships. Their Trade Cogs are 10% faster.
The Bohemian bonus theoretically also applies when you have to replace units... But you'd need to be forced to replace a LOT of units at once for it to be better than the discount bonuses.
Can’t wait to see how Hindustani trade bonus compare with all these.
Spirit never disappoints. Btw I’ve always wondered which program do you use for your charts? It gives me ggolot vibes but I can’t quite tell
Superb video!
By the way, it's not "Saltons". It's pronounced "Sull-taans", sull as in full but with an 's'.
Could you please do an mathematical analysis of themes related to the latest Redbull Wololo tournament?
I don't know if you already did one, but it would be cool to have analized how the caravan tech affects these values and when to research it (like the video about wheelbarrow and hand cart)
Can't wait for the video after this weekend's AOE4 open beta
Still waiting for that Burgandian civ overview
I always watch SOTL videos just to support him
Depending on the situation, I think the Italian bonus might be a bit harder to value than putting on a graph. If you're already in a rough situation for gold when you start building them, for example, Italians could still be putting out carts twice as fast as you would as Bohemians
back at it again with the advanced math lessons with Age of Empires 2 again
In your test case I think it makes more sense to look at the bohemian bonus like a 2.5 market cost buff. The 80% production speed could be achieved with roughly 440 wood (and the building time of the extra markets) Looking at it as 2500 extra gold is a huge exaggeration. Kind of in the same vein, It shows how strong the cuman reduction for stable/archery range cost is. While some specific civs have 20% faster stables/archeries cumans get basically a 133% rate on both types of production. Again, while disregarding the build time of 50 seconds which is like 20ish res.
Gold generated by trade carts is proportional to map size, not just distance travelled. From what I understand, corner to corner for any map size is the same.
After making a video on obuch and hussite wagons, a video on houfnice is needed, especially after piper's wins in red bull 5.
In AoE3 the Spanish also have a mid to late game gold bonus through the Spanish Gold home city card. Not that it matters, but it is nice to find there is some consistency across games.
History helps a lot in this sense. The spanish empire was swimming in gold at some point
@@SIGNOR-G Yeah, it is a shame they wasted most of it in religious wars and defending the land interests of the Hapsburgs in Central Europe instead of investing it on the Spanish people and their empire.
@@vladimirlagos2688 yep. The hapsburg were the rothchild before the rothchild. Even worse in a certain way comsidering they were europeans and were such a bloat to the continent
My day is officially better
I thought there is nothing more to be discussed from AoE2DE. But thank you SotL.
Please make a top 5 Black Forest civs
Imagine if the faster work speed applied to Bohemian trade carts as well
I am surprised the Saracens didn't get an honorable mention here but they are a "Market" Civ, not a trade Civ
Cheaper market and guilds in feudal is very good but not perfect in the long run
Dont forget that the italian bonus wprks for TRADE COGS too
it would be nice to see the perspective of an slinger player, i have seen situations where they have over 100 trade carts
I wish there was a way to know my trade income per minute in an actual game that involves haphazardly build ally houses rather than just idealized straight line calculations. Heck I'd even take for being able to tag a single unit and knowing when it returns to my market.
Some ideas for eco Trade cart civ bonuses
Trade Carts benefits from Husbandry and Bloodlines
fallen trade carts recive 50 % from their costs
Trade Carts brings additional other resources half from the value example 20 gold and u can get extra 10 food or 10 wood (stones will be op i guess or maximum 5)
a unique trade unit which can defend, attack and trade.( this civ should have 2 unique units)
Trash trade carts, only wood cost.
Please make a video analyzing in depth the poles mining stone and selling it for gold. Until which market price it is viable.
Please be part of any AOE2 tournament as a statistician analysis
I stepped away from my playlist for a second to return just in time to see trade carts racing off the screen at high speed 🤣
Question:
Why isnt worth to make a few (1 or 2 ~5) carts in mid-late Castle as Spanish or Indians, just to start a trickle?
You're better off making villagers mining gold instead (they cost less). There may some *some* arguments for starting trade in Castle if you have 3-4 TCs producing vils and are spamming military, but I don't know what they are.
In Castle, you are probably better off spending the gold on military units for map control, and getting the gold from gold miners.
Indian 10% faster gold rate applies to mining as well.
I’m pretty sure mining is about double as effective as trade carts. Villagers are cheaper to produce, more effective, you’d had to run to the corner of the map and spend 175 wood and building time… it simply is bad.
Right time is like 5-10 minutes into imperial if you feel like your next push might not kill your enemy.
Personally I like to delay as long s as possible, and just try to get map control of the middle gold piles. It’s effective, but kinda sucks if you fail or you’re too late to create carts.
Yeah I usually make 2 or 3 when queuing up for castle if the opponent isn't keen on rushing.
If its a 100% boom game with no attack, then its ideal to start in feudal itself, even if your opponent is not keen on rushing its better to build up wood for extra tcs than to walk till the edge of map for the market IMO.
Hi @Spirit of the Law, This isn't related to this video per se but I'm curious if you've considered how map positions influence winning chance. My intuition is that fighting up a map (ones position being lower) is mildly beneficial but I haven't seen any discussion on this. I wonder if one analyzes lots of games the data might yield interesting results (right better than left, up better than down etc.) Thanks!
Portuguese+spanish+bohemians WITH perfect trade route = infinite gold🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
So a Spanish + Portuguese combo mean Portuguese have 45% gold generation, that mean 18 trade cart is enough to compete and save more population space. Including the Bohemian bonus mean Portuguese reach max potential faster than the rest. Would like to see the chart for that filthy rich combo. ^_^
Actually the spanish tech of receiving 25% more gold is not the same but better than units being cheaper - the reason for that is the market where you can sell that extra gold in the case it isnt spend. Having cheaper units is only potentially more gold, so in cases were you don't spend it or can't spend it (pop space, no enough production, etc.) you lose value, while having the extra gold upfront gives you more flexibility and can be used for other things than units - like the market.
I’d love to have seen DE bring bake the trade workshop and actually make it functional. Leave the market for the tech and buying / selling of resources. Yet use the trade workshop to build trade carts and engage in trade specifically.
Hey Spirit, could you consider the Goths extra 10 population for a trade bonus? So they could run 50 carts, or am I way off track here
Big brain
This will create more problems than intended, because someone can argue u save/gen more gold by going karambit & 2 handed swordsman saving both gold and pop space.
Also for Persian trashbows.. and bohemian food hungry monks
I think this methodology doesn't factor in that cheaper trade often means you can afford to get more out faster.
Maybe it is more of a factor in lower level games but my trade is often constrained by the amount I can afford. Being able to afford a few extra carts each time Im in a position where I feel I can spare the resources means in practice I really feel the impact of the cheaper carts.
Im a bit disappointed that you didn't look up for the trade cogs and if there is any water bonuses that goes well with them, good video anyways :)
About faster working XYZ I always wonder why not build more buildings? Mostly we are talking about buildings which cost a bit of wood...
I get it for trash units: in the late game they are created in such large quantities that doubling your ten barracks is not very feasible, or at least has the disadvantage of longer ways to the front line for new units. But markets? Sure, they are rather big, but we're not talking about doubling ten markets, but three... also, the added wood cost is not that high.
Love it
Imagine ending in a perfect team of Portuguese/Spanish/Bohemians/Indians in a Black Forest map and ending lossing because one of the players in the middle turned out to be a noob (or a griefer) that built walls without gates in his area and refused to destroy them, making trade impossible.
Teutonic order for final civ
If a player is eliminated, does their team lose their bonus?
Nope
If a hun player (enemy) research atheism and then he loses, do you still recieve less gold from relics?
@@jomnix nope.
As soon as my market drops, I am making carts.
What would be (in correct order) the wackest combo of civs for a long term trading combo in a 4vs4?
I imagine that spanish, bulgarian, ports, and indians... But that would require something else besides gold income xD
2:29 Why does the Italians graph have an offset on y-axis? Are we claiming the gold saved by the tech as gold collected?
spirit, in the red bull tounament i do not see any infantry, is there any problem whit militia line? even in bulgarian math ups i just don see any milia, its a bad unit in hi level? can u do a video about this topic? (sry for my bad eng)
Well it seems like you missed the berbers trade bonus, since all ships move %10 faster, trade cogs also was buffed to be affected from it. Thanks for the video!
Trade cogs are just so much worse than carts its no where nearly enough bonus.
@@NotThatGuyJD but technically it is still a trade bonus, it should have been shown and can u explain why they are so much worse.
I legit didn't know that Portuguese Trade Carts get the gold discount! I thought it was limited to military units only
So the best thing is to play Italians with a Spanish and a Bohemian ally? The Italian unique tech should work nicely with the Bohemian team bonus to ensure you have the resources to keep your market working continuesly.
The argument of Portuguese is saving pop space could be made fir any civ with discount. Berber, goth, mayans, slavs. If think ports are oversold in this analysis
Imagine playing indians with Spanish and Bohemian teammate. That would be insane
It's weird that Spirit didn't talk about trade cogs
there is another one and im not sure for which civ...but it makes trading units to move faster when they are empty, if im not mistaken?
what musics do you use for your videos?
That's for Trade Carts, what about Trade Cogs?
Spanish + Bohemians + Portuguese + Turks. Gunpowder and gold. Nice combo for artillery only.
Never been this early to a sotl vid before
Yup
Do you use Plotly in Python for your graphs? It looks familiar
Isn't it Excel or G. Spreadsheet?
Wow red Hussite Wagons like gaudy as hell...
Could you please do a stream of your first time playing AoE IV? Pleeeeeeeease?
Don't you think the Spanish could also consider training 25% less trade carts (10 less) to beat both the Bohemian and portuguese? It's just a thought. Since they make 25% more gold they can either opt for more gold or more population space right? What do you think @spirit of the law.??
Make a new vid about best civ teammates 😍
I wish they would add more commands for villagers. Not even military commands. But, why can't I make a villager a repairer and have them automatically seek out and repair buildings, siege units, and ships. Or have them follow units. Have a villager follow a siege weapon or follow a sheep to keep it from getting taken. Have a builder or repairer patrol and build or repair anything in their path. Also having sheep be able to follow units would be cool too. Also make it where a monk can follow and heal a unit, and be able to shift click conversations. They should be able to wait and convert a unit after their faith replenishes. Also make bombard towers do melee damage again please. Their projectiles are too slow for foot soldiers and cavalry. They actually had a purpose to destroy siege that's why they cost gold and stone but now I don't even build them as you made the regular towers better in every situation and their cheaper. Also archers should be able to fire arrows out of the siege tower that would make it actually useful it could even increase their range while inside. That would make it worth costing a lot more than a ram.
So if we are expected to have roughly 40 trade carts, what would the final approx econ composition look like? 15 wood 50 food, 40 carts, and 5 stone?+-
I'm disappointed by the lack of an Indian + Spanish and Bohemian Ally line and a Portuguese + Spanish and Bohemian Ally line on a chart of just combined team bonuses and the old Spanish +33% bonus.
Play as the Portuguese with Bohemian and Spanish allies.
Wouldn’t the best option for a team scenario be to play as Portuguese, and have both Spanish and bohemian allies?
What about the graph of an Italian player Spanish and Bohemian ally though?
Entertaining video as always but counting the Portuguese discount for their other units here doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If we are counting that as a trade bonus than Goths are probably a better Trading civ because they get 35% on infantry and can also make another 5 Trade carts with their population bonus. The Hand cannoneer example especially doesn’t make any sense because Italians get them for 40 Gold as well.
Bohemians + Spanish + Turks = Ultimate 3v3 Combo
How about polish cheap knights about 200 of those
@@arya.n.8252 not very Pop efficient
"So you should have around 40 trade carts to sustain your gold economy..."
*Me with only 10 trade carts in the late game wondering how I'm making less units than my opponent.*
So Indian player with Bohemian and Spanish ally is the best trade in the game.
Actually, portugeese not indian. Then you get cheaper units on top of more gold faster.