Explaining Astrology to a Skeptic
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- čas přidán 17. 06. 2024
- An interview between astrologer Chris Brennan and science journalist Abi Millar, where Abi asks some questions about astrology from the perspective of someone who is skeptical but open-minded about the subject.
Abi is in the process of writing a book titled The Spirituality Gap, which will explore a range of spiritual practices and examine how people make sense of life in the modern world, and how this can be understood within the context of a scientific mindset.
As a science reporter, Abi was approaching the subject of astrology from more of a skeptical perspective, but said that she hoped to maintain a balance between skepticism and open-mindedness.
She asked to interview me for a chapter in the book that is going to be on astrology, and I agreed under the condition that I could record and release the discussion as an episode of the podcast.
I thought this would be a good opportunity to record an episode talking with someone who is skeptical but curious about astrology, and demonstrate how I would personally answer some of the questions about astrology that naturally come up in that context.
In some ways it is a continuation of a similar approach that I took in episode 288, which was titled Explaining Astrology to Non-Astrologers, and if you enjoy this episode then I’d recommend checking that one out as well:
• Explaining Astrology t...
This is episode 383 of The Astrology Podcast:
theastrologypodcast.com/2023/...
Timestamps:
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:46 Abbi Millar's book
00:02:36 How Chris discovered astrology
00:05:10 Cosmology that underlies astrology
00:07:18 Is astrology a science?
00:09:10 Astronomy and astrology
00:12:00 Why astrology fell out of favor
00:19:33 Causal mechanism of astrology
00:22:11 Does Chris believe astrology works?
00:24:04 Confirmation bias
00:30:37 Astrological studies
00:35:19 The focus of Chris' work
00:36:22 Is astrology predictive?
00:46:18 Predictions for the next few years
00:52:23 Fate and free will
00:56:02 Value of studying historical basis of astrology
01:03:00 How astronomical discoveries have impacted astrology
01:05:08 The 13th zodiac sign
01:10:45 Rise in popularity of astrology
01:19:52 Decline in skepticism
01:27:30 Is astrology a spiritual practice
01:30:26 Biggest misconceptions about astrology
01:36:48 Richard Tarnas
01:38:11 Difficulties in going public with one's interest in astrology
01:43:43 Patrons and sponsors - Zábava
She picked the right, best, person to talk to. Excellent job, Chris! Thank you.
Agreed!
@@MB.77 Wow yes...Ditto
Two "jokes" about bad astrologers.
1. A distressed mother consulted a second astrologer because she was told that such an aspect in her son's chart was characteristic of a murderer, to which the astrologer replied: I have this aspect in my chart and for more than 60 years I have never killed anyone.
2. A mature woman who was successful in her business consulted an astrologer who told her that she would never be successful in business.
I admire you so much, Chris. Your contribution to the world hasn’t even been understood yet. Tip of the iceberg. We are so lucky to have you in this community.
I second that emotion!
3rd 😁💫💛
Fourth 😊
AMEN ‼️👍🏻👍🏻‼️ & I Fifth that emotion!
Sixth 😊
Chris I’ve been drawn to your marvelous combination of intellect and wisdom. I’m a psychologist and analyst and I’m grateful this area knocked on my door in my sixties
One thing I would add to her question around astrologers maybe obfuscating their lack of understanding about WHY astrology works... Chris uses the example of machines, like microwaves or cars, saying that we don't necessarily need to know the mechanics of those machines to know that they work. But one could counter, SOMEONE knows how those things work. The example that I would use, actually, is nature. Because nature works in spite of our baffling lack of understanding of its mechanics. We think we know, but we are unable thus far as a species to understand the specific workings of nature without a profound level of reductionism and leaving things out. Our understanding of science, as Chris says, is subject to change, and that's really in large part because of our inherent ignorance of how the world works. So as with nature, astrology operates in this sort of realm of mystery. When it works, I think it's best for us to be humble toward that and almost recognize that the science we have at present is inadequate to understand it. As of now, it is only able to reduce down elements into their constituent parts, when that's not how nature nor astrology work. Both only operate in relationship to all other parts and facets and must be understood in a transcontextual sense. This is hard for scientifically minded people programmed into the doctrine of reductionism to understand: that reducing something down does not inherently enhance your understanding of something. It may indeed obfuscate and lead to far LESS understanding. There is a level of faith, perhaps, but more than that: there is a humility in approaching astrology and nature that is necessary, in my opinion.
Well said!
Thank you, Chris, for representing astrology with such an erudite & articulate manner - a really excellent conversation ✨🌟👏
I would prefer it if people who don’t respect or understand astrology stay away from trying to pick it apart with studies. Scientists who are open-minded and team up with professional respected astrologers to work on this are welcome to join the party.
I work at a small town Home Depot. Today I assisted a wonderful customer in need of some basic plumbing bits. After some general small talk, I learned that she was a professional astrologer with 30 years of experience. I said that I would love to schedule a reading with her. She looked sad and said that she would love to do that, she was completely exhausted as she worked with corporations, the human resources for Fortune 500 companies, and she had very little time for personal consultations. I completely believe her because she mentioned multiple things that only an astrologer would even know OR name, or even consider...
@@melissamoore521 oh wow! I hope you were able to at least get an email or some contact info from her. It isn't easy to find people with that many years experience nearby.
Should I believe in quantum mechanics even though there's no explanation for *why* it should work? (Rhetorical)
Quantum phenomena is actually measurable and you can conduct tests with quantum particles and even replicate results you can’t do that with astrology, in fact if you had 2 people with identical birth charts you would get 2 different outcomes as far as their personalities and what their lives are like , these inconsistencies are what make astrology rather weak and more in the realm of “faith” as opposed to testable/repeatable science
I really appreciate your approach to astrology. I was practically born a skeptic and have remained that way, except for a new age phase that culminated in a mental health crisis that taught me I can't just let magical thinking answer everything for me. Even having sworn off of spirituality entirely if there's no empirical evidence, I was never able to let go of astrology because it just works, plain and simple. Especially as I've become more educated on the subject, while looking to be proven wrong, astrology still works despite my skepticism. I'd love to see more skeptics look into astrology below the surface, and really understand it beyond a pop astrology level. It would be fantastic to see more science based research on astrology with an advanced understanding of it
1:34:57 Arthur M. Young, engineer, mathematician and the inventor of the Bell helicopter (the first commercialy licensed civilian helicopter) is one example of a highly smart person that wasn't an astrologer but studied it heavily and applied it in his work, which encapsulated other scientific areas. The Geometry of Meaning, one of his books, is one example that beautifully integrated Astrology in a coherent Theory of Everything (TOE).
Chris I think you’ve played a big part in the expansion of the astrology communities peak over the last few years. I’ve been studying it for the last two years now and I listen to you every week.
I don't think it matters if Astrology can be proven or not, as long as it makes you question your existence. As well as questioning what is your true self and what is societal conditioning and/or trauma. it can help you to evolve into a whole person and become to more self aware; which hopefully would lead you to being a more empathetic, compassionate, confident part of the Universe🌌💜 Astrology works for me, but I have seen charts that don't resonate with the person as much as I do with mine. I think this is because I have a natural house chart (Aries rising and so on) and the signs and house expressions are in sync even more than other people's.
Thank You Chris 🙏♏✨
Chris, you are such a gift and offer a validity and understanding to astrology. There is so much more to it and with and your depth of knowledge and incredibly capable way of answering these questions have allowed for astrology be given more respect and understanding for more people. So good to have you speak for all of us who practice. Always grateful for all you do, 🙏❤️
I just want to say that I really truly hope you know how phenomenally well you do what you do, Chris, and how important a role you have played in my life in the last couple of years as a role model in how to be a great astrologer. Keep it up and I wish you even more success!
30 minutes in and absolutely floored at how knowledgeable you are on the subject. even when pressed, you are able to present facts driven responses
7:40! Yes Chris! I really enjoyed this episode (and your magi position!) Abi was a perfect foil for your usually critical perspective. You are the very BEST kind of investigator. You never buy into your own perspective. You always wonder if there is another explanation. Namaste, dear Critic.
Excellent episode! My two cents about the rise of popularity - it's go to do with the Millennials and Pluto in Scorpio. I'm part of that generationally speaking. There's a rise in the need for self-awareness and people my age seek all possible tools to help them understand their complexities and find predictability in a chaotic world. There's a rise in the number of Psychology students as well.
my skepticism about astrology ends when it is confronted with history, as Chris did in this video. a series of videos from another channel also do this, the 1st video is The Astrology of the 2020s.
It does become difficult to refute when you see historical events played out and then forward predictions from these come true.
You go Chris; breaking down the Scientific Methodology of how Astrology, looks at correlation and methods in the practice as a field of the applied Arts and ai would say science. Very Interesting topic and you are the expert who can speak to its methods and historical evolution and evidence of it as a practice ❤! Thank you for sharing this.
Love love love this. Thank you for always keeping things professional, articulate and detailed. She picked a great person to have this conversation with. Thanks again for all you do Chris 👏
Another important note is knowing how valuable the sun & moon’s existence is towards humankind. Without the sun & moon, nothing would grow, no serotonin would be produced, no tides would move, no seasons, no time to rest and regenerate, no concept of cycles and patterns, just nothingness.
People in their twenties around 2018: Uranus Neptune conjunction in their birth chart.
Great conversation! Thanks for recording and sharing.
this was wonderful! thank you so much ♥️
Thank you for this! I am grateful for this conversation!
Nailed it!
Thank you for your wise words, Chris. ❤️
Perfect timing as we celebrate the New Year and more and more people who never believed are starting to ask questions.
Brilliant Chris! Thank you so much!!
This is a fantastic episode, thank you! Your wisdom and analysis are inspiring
this was an amazing episode! I loved Abi and all her questions and it was really cool to see you guys chat
This is such an important and therefore valuable discussion!
Thank you!
Great job Chris! You argued your points so eloquently and with such a depth of knowledge it was impossible to walk away not having learned something new. Thank you both!
Chris, this is you best episode so far (and I have seen many good ones)
What an amazing discussion! Thank you Chris Brennan, you brilliancy is uncanny!
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This is great!!!
I hope the journalist grasped the general concepts and will use the material on an unbiased angle.
Thank you for your thoughtful and eloquent responses, Chris. Your book is brilliant. Coming from decades in academia and having been trained in a Research I institution, I was delighted to see this scholarly contribution to the field. Thanks for all you do!
This was a fantastic episode! Chris, your brain is so complex. I really appreciate the connections you make. Respect.
Wonderful discussion Chris, many thanks ❤️
you provided great critical responses to the complexity of astrology and its study
as someone who came into astrology in my mid twenties and attending UAC in 2018 i met many peers who shared a skeptical mind but found astrology hard to deny despite ourselves. we were all of the saturn-uranus-neptune in capricorn cohort trying to find a serious spiritual foundation that wasn’t too woo woo or wild that had us take some time before we could commit to astrology. i feel like astrologers younger than us are more credulous and enthusiastic of astrology as the ease of astro knowledge online has grown. astrologers like you Chris who are grounded and considered were a big part of the shift for me, and finding Tarnas’s academic and philosophical approach. just my take
Even as a astrology student I learnt so much off this podcast. I always get scoffed at by skeptical people but this has really put the whole process in an order that can be understood by both astrologers and skepics. Thank you!
Fantastic job Chris, I also really appreciated Abi. This was a nice conversation that I enjoyed listening to 😁
Chris, I absolutely loved this interview! Very well done. I’m glad you addressed the topic of a 13th zodiac sign. My hope is that people will broaden their perspective and consider the impact on one’s life using astrology.
Wonderful discussion! Thank you 💞
Wonderful interview, with interesting discussions!! You really are a gem in the astrology community, Chris. Discovering you and your podcast really deepened my interest in astrology, and has inspired me to pursue it as more than a hobby. Thank you so much! I recently bought your book, and I can't wait to take your course :)
New to your channel - it was recommended to me by an astrologer. Very helpful information here for someone who is just starting to learn - thank you 😊 ❤️
Absolutely brilliant!! You truly are the best spokesperson for the job, Chris! The astrological community wouldn't be the same without you bringing it all together. Scepticism n all 🙌
Brilliant. Sometimes I think without this channel would be a bit lost in astrology. A beautifully clarifying, respectful and informative video.
Great episode explaining astrology to non-experts and skeptics! 👏 Interesting that the popularity of all astrology began in 2018-2019. I became interested in astrology in 2018, but became a student of astrology in 2019.
Chris you are truly the GOAT
Dear Chris....I am so grateful for all your knowledge and wisdom that you share. Your Mother must be so proud of you...cause i sure am. I jumped on this art/science/philosophy of the stars during covid days. I am a 65 year old kid who loves to study astrology. Oh and am your Scorpio sun sister from another mother with the moon in Cancer and Libra rising. You have always fascinated me with the amount of information you've got stored and literally pour out during your amazing interviews. Holyeeee! Abi was wonderful and asked great questions which you so carefully and respectfully gave your orations reflecting your passion for this topic. Bravo to you!
Much respect🪶
Great talk, Chris and Abi! Chris, you could've also mentioned Jung's study on the probable links between psychoanalysis and astrology.
Thanks for the reasoned discussion. My use of astrology has changed over the last twenty years or so, from an initial interest in the psychological aspects to predictive forecasting and now as a personalised mythology for making sense of life. Consequently, I no longer feel the need to find a scientific explanation or even justification for how or why it might work, which is very freeing.
Social media's definitely played a role in the current resurgence/popularity, even if mostly superficial or for pure entertainment. It's also interesting to see younger generations talking more openly about Sun-Moon-Rising Signs, retrogrades, etc. I think this coincides with the (inevitable) decline of old-world religions yet those generations still needing an underlying and meaningful connection, such as a shared mythology, which is why many are turning to practices like astrology.
Well done Chris!
I got into astrology through an earlier fascination (and education) in science and mathematics. When I realised that science didn't have the answers to the big questions, and that academic science was too entrenched to assimilate it's own revolutionary findings, specifically non-linear dynamics, (also misleadingly called chaos theory), I gave up on the academic career I assumed I would follow, took a sabbatical and looked around for ways of running with my interest in these new discoveries. I found astrology, which fit comfortably within a fractal or holographic model of the universe, in keeping with the findings of non-linear dynamics. Within this kind of model, self-similarity - the appearance in the microcosm of patterns manifest in the macrocosm - is the norm, and the idea of wholeness or oneness is fundamental. Although this kind of model doesn't actually explain astrology, it does provide a basis on which astrology 'makes sense', rather than the outdated and now thoroughly disproven 18th century model of causative rationalism which still pervades the majority of society to this day, against which astrology is clearly nonsense.
What is causative rationalism?
@@Firqin1986 I just made it up :) It's a short hand for a belief that the world can be understood by breaking it down into parts and understanding those parts and how they interact (rationalism, as in ratio, as in breaking into parts), and that things happen because of physical laws of cause and effect (causative). Having split things into bits, the behaviour of one bit can be explained by other bits acting on it and causing that behaviour. In modern industrial cultures, this is an underlying belief, typically held unconsciously, which makes it hard for people to accept things like astrology, holistic healing modalities and even things like the results of quantum mechanics, and the butterfly effect, despite the fact that these last two things were arrived at using the analytical scientific method (which makes this belief itself, irrational - a paradox which disproves the belief itself).
Perfectly expressed! I too got tired of the entrenched worldviews of academic science that couldn’t grow with new knowledge. Show me a fractal and I can understand what you’re talking about lol
@@SacredandSalty Thanks! Nice to know I'm not alone ;)
Let me get this straight, so the reason why you believe astrology is right, is due to the concept of self-similarity? I don't understand how these things correlate?
Great conversation, raises more questions than answers, but that unto itself is useful. The dialogue is excellent.
I'm going to say what everyone else is saying - "Excellent job and we'll done Chris Brennan".
Blew me away with how you articulated those thoughts and answers so fu*//n well.
Thank you for educated me through this discussion and at the same time being such a great spokesman for astrologers everywhere.
Very well spoken. Much respect!
Chris is fabulous ...I wish I could have learnt Astrology in school, when i think of all the years wasted on Algebra ...uhh.
Really love this coming out on the hours of Aquarian new moon, with Venus joined Saturn.
Idealistic. 💜
Liked & shared.
Another great talk Chris!
The 75% need to listen to this podcast to appreciate the validity, usefulness and complexity of astrology. It may peek the curiosity of many to research it further like your guest. Well done!
This was lovely! I hope it gets a million views!
Excellent! Well done. 👍👍
Brilliant. Enlightening. Thanks so much for posting this.
Just absolutely brilliant!
So enjoy this podcast.
Thank you for doing this
Around 29:00 while the discussion is covering confirmation bias: confirmation bias is the name given to a statistical observation by psychologists, itself probability-based. In recent times, scientists have turned their judgment around another concept in psychology, “the placebo effect”, This concept has been used to point to some apparent flaw in the human psyche, but is now being used by drug manufacturers and the medical profession to bring about healing. Psychology as a field of study is not itself immune from all kinds of cultural bias that prevents researchers from studying phenomena they already think they know is worthy of study or not. The scientific method must be used to ask the right questions. We may yet find that there is actually a lot more to “confirmation bias” in understanding the nature of human consciousness than the labeling of a perceived flaw. Thanks to both for keeping a window open on this as a public discussion.
Absolutely *yes.* That is all :D *Aquarius stellium & Taurus rising* ☆
Great episode! - 👍 - I missed Chris' mundane prediction about 2025 to 2032 before. Scary stuff, given current events. - Thanx anyways for posting this to both of you! - 🙏- Enjoyed it very much to listen to this. - Thank you!
What's the time stamp for that, if you don't mindm
@@brittaniejones4747 Uff - I don't know the timestamp. If you listen carefully you won't miss it I guess. - Enjoy!
@@brittaniejones4747 46:18
Most excellent!
Excellent as always!
Another great episode on how to deal with sceptics. This has been important as I come from a very science-based family and was totally shamed for loving astrology as I did throughout my life. I liken the inablity to prove astrology to the inability to prove gravity. The only "proof" is in the demonstration/observation that it works!
"Loved"..
Thank you Chris 40's
Great job Chris!
Its like being a mathematician and trying to explain the value of numbers to someone that knows only how to add.
Great job 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Haven't watched it yet, but that's an awesome idea
Chris, I'm waiting and waiting for your next book... 🤓 I really hope that something is being created behind the scenes 😛
Now I have the perfect video to offer someone who is giving me shit about listening to astrology. Nice one Chris!
Epic topic!
Good on you Chris. She could speak with Adam Elenbaas regarding astrology being a spiritual practice ☯️🪶
Absolutely Brilliant 👏
I hope astrology is referred to as practical knowledge some time in the future. It is life changing. Idk why it is. But I don't have to have all the answers to have peace. The fact that people try sooo hard to stamp out truly healthy "hippie" ideas and practices is one of many reasons why they should be explored. To get better exploration is necessary.
You did a very good job here Chris. I would make a suggestion in my observations that science is taking a much more philosophical turn in the last 10 years due to philosophical questions in reference to quantum mechanics etc. as I love much science, read scientific books, watch CZcams channels like Closer To The Truth and yes there is a shift in thinking.
Any recommended reading related to this trend/phenomenon?
i just happened to watch the explaining astrology to non astrologers video yesterday and saw that this one came out today. you used the microwave analogy in both and initially when i heard it i really liked it. it made sense that we don't have to understand how something works for it to still work but then I realized that someone out there does understand the mechanics of a microwave (like the manufacturers) or else it wouldn't work. astrology is different, people didn't know why certain celestial movements coincided with earthly events, they just recognized that they did. i personally have reverence for astrology and recognize it's validity but this analogy isn't quite analogous.
What about a doctor who knows anatomy and how the body works but cannot say how the body is given life? I know conception but before that where did we come from and what happens after death.
There are tons of scientifically validated things for which we cannot determine why they work.
For numerous medicines we take, we don't know why they work, only that they do work to treat whatever they're indicated to treat.
An example would be anti-depressants. One popular hypothesis for why people develop depression was that the brains of depressed people do not produce enough serotonin. This has since been disproved - the brains of depressed and non-depressed people show no significant differences in serotonin levels. And yet, SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, which increase the amount of serotonin in the brain) are still used to treat depression. Why? Because they have still been shown by studies to work to treat depression. We don't know why increasing the levels of serotonin helps depression, even though it does.
Here is a quote from an article called 'One Big Myth About Medicine: We Know How Drugs Work: "Knowing why a drug works has historically trailed the treatment, sometimes by decades. Some of the most recognizable drugs -- acetaminophen for pain relief, penicillin for infections, and lithium for bipolar disorder, continue to be scientific mysteries today." The article was published in the Washington Post and shared on the Harvard Medical School website (mentioned so it's clear I'm not citing something on the crackpot side of the internet).
Even in the realm of science, both with medicines and various natural processes, we often don't initially understand how or why things work the way they do. When that standard is acceptable for medications many people take everyday that affect their bodies, I think it is fair to extend that standard to astrology.
I too dislike the microwave analogy, because microwaves are man-made. I think that a better analogy for astrology is comparing it to how, in the past, we didn't understand how various processes and phenomena in nature work that we know do understand. I think that, given that astrology does work, people will eventually determine the causal mechanism of astrology even though we don't know it today.
I'm glad to have you. 1:42:12
Thank you
Psychologically speaking, having the sense that astrology works has to do with the ability to differentiate or observe oneself
Will you be consider inviting astrologer Donny Lim to be on a podcast. I really enjoy him and feel he would fit in great on the astrology podcast. Thanks
Please do an episode explaining the use of the Vertex!
Listening while doing kitchen stuff and the microwave literally dinged when you mentioned it!
Brilliant.... just brilliant
Go Chris!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Great episode! She should read _Cosmos and Psyche_ for mundane astrology. Minor point on the 13th sign foolishness: it would not have been NASA that made that declaration, but the IAU. That's enough by itself to recognize clickbait.
Abi Miller, if you're reading this, I recommend you look at the work of Bernardo Kastrup, particularly his book "More Than Allegory: On religious myth, truth and belief."
I've been really getting into this podcast since the new year and I'm loving it. I wanted to ask, do you think there is any astrological meaning or impact of the asteroid that came really close to earth last night? I know in this episode you were hesitant to explore the cosmology of why Astrology works but it got me thinking about events like this being more difficult to study because they are so brief, yet the proximity surely has an impact just as powerful if not more so than the asteroids we study like Juno or Chiron. I'd love to hear what thoughts you or others reading this might have on the subject?
Nice podcast.
Excellent. A keeper.
1:05:10
I really appreciate the answer of this question because it's the question i always get..
Just a thought but the uptick in people interested in astrology could be due to the Uranus Sagittarius/9th house ppl like myself...having left or wandered away from traditional religions. I think it was religion that caused astrology to kind of go underground in the first place, but as more truth came out in regard to religion or when people started to question it they opened their mind up to the things that religion rejected. Such as astrology.
I actually came into astrology through religion. I would consider myself a scholar honestly because I studied day and night the Bible thoroughly, myself, for understanding (and not just that but i studied diff translations,the hebrew language itself and the torah). Amongst several things I started to see the many references of astrology throughout the Bible, specifically, to the point where I started to view the Bible as a pseudo-astrological-biological book.
When the Bible said the word became flesh... are we not all evidence of this? The word being the language of the heavens (the stars/signs) ... we literally emBODY.
It's funny because as Chris talked about Astrologers it remind me of Jesus in a way lol. Persecuted, rejected and scoffed at. Loved by some privately and others willing to give their life (symbolically, through avid belief). I think astrology is like the middle man or could be that rainbow bridge that brings together both science and religion...Christ was the middle man between man and "God" ... right? He didn't come to abolish the law but to FULFILL. Astrology doesn't have to come to abolish religion, but maybe through it people may naturally not feel a need for it, almost as if that phase is complete (fulfilled)...
I think it’s important to differentiate between modern psychological astrology and traditional astrology for a skeptic. Traditional astrology is predictive and modern astrology “psychological” so I think it depends which kind of astrologer you consult. It’s much easier to confirm the accuracy of predictions than broad strokes of your psychological dispositions… not to say that traditional astrology doesn’t approach your psychological disposition, however they are different approaches generally