Conditioning, Strength, and The Two Factor Model of Sports Performance
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- čas přidán 6. 01. 2021
- Mark Rippetoe discusses conditioning for sports and clarifies the Two Factor Model of Sports Performance with a caller during a recent live Q&A.
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If I may, as a former fighter (amateur and pro and across multiple disciplines) conditioning is great for one and only one thing: producing the same or nearly the same amount of force with the same quality of technique in the last half of the competition segment as in the first half -- so you destroy them when they're gased. That means that the time a competator must condition for is directly related to the length of time for the competition segment, exceeding it only slightly. Additionally training must demand power production and technique quality to be as high as possible at all times.
If one jogs 30 minutes every day, hits the bag for and hour and half hoirs additionally every day, does not lift, and then adheres to a caloric defecit, one will become what we called in Arlington "hammered dog shit" in four weeks. I have seen it, I have experienced it, I have regretted it.
I have seen this formula win: pack on as much muscle as possible in your off-season by lifting 2 or 3 days/week while you continue to practice your sport on off days.
9 weeks out, reduce the number of lifitng training sessions, but increase your practice intensity and/or frequency, exactly like Patrick says (hit harder) and like Rip says (for slightly longer rounds).
This is exactly what the highest paid athletes (football and baseball players) are made to do, right?
Thank you for saying this. Please, say it over and over.
Deepends on the weight class. Last thing you want is to up 30lbs then be forced to cut weight for example a 5 8 male who competes at 155lbs walks around 170 and then goes up to 200 from strength training. Now he has 6-8 weeks to get down to 155lbs. That's problematic.
@@Soulen1986
No, it doesn't depend on the athlete's weight class. It depends on the athlete's goal for a weight class. If the athlete is married to his weight class and cannot go up, then they train almost at that weight and shouldn't touch weights in the off season anyway. You objection is, essentially, "But what if this dude doesn't want to get stronger?" Ok, then screw him, he won't get stronger. You can stop reading here. Don't fucking weight train a 5'8" guy you want to drop 45 lbs right after you get him up to 200. Why even do that?
However if your objection is that 6-8 weeks isn't enough, ok maybe. But you didn't read my comment before you decided to start typing. I said "nine weeks." Re-read and revise your complaint.
If the athlete is 5'8" and goes from 155lbs fighting, maybe at 10-12% body fat, his FFMI is about 21, just less than 140lbs of lean mass. Yikes!
He should be getting up to 170 fighting weight at 12% body fat. He'd bump up FFMI 23 with 150lbs "lean mass" then and be able to hit harder, faster and carry enough fat to last three rounds or longer.
Also, are you nuts? lol You want a combat sport athlete in the span of a year to train for muscle gain of 30-32 pounds then drop 45 pounds to fight? He'd lose mostly muscle because you'd have to starve him and/or keep him on anabolic steroids. Then you want this dude to train and improve and retain his timing and ability to move at all? Fine, take him on a 16 week caloric deficit, lose 3 pounds a week... You'll end up with a fighter who is literally hungry, probably over trained, tired, at 9% body fat, just so you can give him 1.5 lbs more muscle. That is problematic if a coach thinks that's acceptable.
We're talking about how to gain more muscle to kick more ass.
Your reply was just as solid as the original comment and for someone like me who has never done anything at any kind of a amateur level it was very clearly put.
@@Soulen1986 i Have a theroy that each fighter can go on one weightclass and keep it if they reach a specific number on thier lifts and keep it there.
Its funny I would box all the time and half ass ran once in a while and me and some of my teammates would spar for like 10 rounds (light) and had fun, I took 3 months off to join the local track team at my community college and was up 5 miles a day in running, went back the gym and was out of breath in less than 2 minutres I was also in thailand some years back and i got to train with a guy with 500 fights and had all kinds of belts(he was a local phuket champ) and he only jogged around the corner once in a while but he spent most of his days sparring and lightly at that. . Mikey Garcia doesnt even jump rope. the man just spars lol. ali was known to spar like crazy too. I myself love boxing but hated the fucking conditioning, I just wanted to spar all day. maybe ill open a gym of my own one day and it will be barbell training and sparing. maybe produce some champs.
Gold information!!
Hey, Rip, Nick. I'm a 44 y/o man, 235 (up from 210 in December) running NLP for 10 weeks now. These are the most amazing and fantastic results I've ever seen! I'd tried a lot of goofy shit over the years (Body for Life, P90X, CrossFit, internet hype crap, etc.), But none have produced consistent, continual, predictable results in strength gain for even 6 weeks. Thank you for that! (Also I'll be moving to DFW soon and really want to spend some time getting my s. un-f.'ed with Nick.)🙏🏻
Ok, that being said, I'd like to offer some qualified insight into the boxing/kickboxing/martial arts cardiovascular conditioning perspective.
Here's my premise:
Rounds-based combat contests REQUIRE cardiovascular conditioning in order to progress round-to-round at nearly equal performance levels. (Simple: you have to be ≥90% as good in the third round as you were in the first round, regardless of "domain", ruleset, or competition style.)
My observation:
In various kinds of kickboxing training running/jogging on the street, track, or treadmill for a duration approximately 3× the round length plus jumping rope for ½-1× the round length has been included in training regimens that have been successful. (If a round is 1:00 in duration this means a 3:00 jog and 1:00 of jumping rope in addition to regular practice. In 3:00 round, this means approximately a 10:00 jog and 300 jumps on a rope before training. (They didn't do math well!))
Conclusion: Total cardiovascular endurance training beyond the domain of exertion is necessary for the successful participation in combat sports.
Justification (a hypothesis):
The combined stressors of public performance, threat of injury, unfamiliar surroundings, accurate and intense execution of multiple techniques in succession, mental focus on the opponent's actions, and actual damage sustained each deplete the athlete's ability to sustain normal cardiovascular function. Significantly greater cardiovascular endurance creates a margin or error or a well of energetic reserve that is not entirely depleted given the set of stressors mentioned above.
The MMA fighter might max out cardio training by running 15 minutes and jumping rope for 5:00. A boxer would do as much as 18 minutes and 3 minutes extra. The fartlek has been continually recommended for the few decades I've trained. I don't think this represents a significant time dedication and I question if such little time would result in a strength loss. (I'm happy to be schooled otherwise, but I'm talking about only 5-20 minutes of running and jump rope before or after practice. Does that make a difference to strength gains?)
While not all of the typical practices in martial arts and combat sports are arranged in rounds, much of practice is spent in rounds-like segments. While pad work and heavy bag work often use the domain of the particular sport's rounds, the focus on proper execution takes precedence over ensuring constant movement. Now there are of course scrimmages or sparring that more closely mimic the sport's rounds and the output required and are invaluable for preparation. (Though the fad recently is to [claim to] not spar! 😆) However, as I described above the additional stressors make extra cardiovascular endurance training necessary.
My first-hand experience that I believe qualifies my opinion:
Karate open point fighting competitor
Olympic Taekwondo competitor
American kickboxing trainee
Once-and-only-once Muay Thai fighter
Grappling competitor
Ranks:
Taekwondo 5th degree black belt
Wadokai karate-do brown belt
Judo green belt
Me: watches a commercial so I can finish the video
The video: ends as soon as the commercial's over
Dammit.
If anyone tries to add skill to the model you’re still talking about this 2 factor model. The practice is working on skills. It’s a solid argument he has.
A fighter learns more about fighting in a ring under heighten duress and the internal drive to overcome it. Now if your body is mal adapted to the demads of combat because your heavy and have little endurance because of how much oxygen you need to move you won't experience the combat stress in a conducive manner towards the development of skill. The two factor model is incomplete not wrong. Practice/strength training/competition. Competing informs how much strength training u actually need for the sport.
@@Soulen1986 I don’t see it. You’re just noting a failure to train well. The premise was about getting ready for something. Of course fighting a real opponent will reveal problems in your training. Model still holds.
I was always told that fighters that didn’t put in the “road work” suffered in their ability to recover after a bad round.
look up fighters like Mikey Garcia, the guy almost never runs but spars all the time (since his brother owns a gym an trains professional fighters) he has endless sparing partners and ive seen him spar anybody from a big fat guy to a 16 year old ( not hurting them)
This gave me some clarity on your premise of strength vs. practice/conditioning.
nice. I literally just got back from a boxing lesson
funny how the old school boxers knew this, all they did was hit the bag and spar for the most part, they would spar for 15 to 20 rounds. the Cubans spar everyday very lightly. and before bouts they would pick it up a notch, more like the 2 a days Rip mentioned for football. I find this info from rip enlightening but also frustrating as I wasted years in boxing running for no reason,. and messing up my hormones and physique (looking like a runner )
Conditioning is provided for by the practice of the sport, BUT some people think that more practice gives them more TALENT and that is also not the case.
Mostly at higher levels the talent is already there, THAT IS WHY you were chosen ("drafted") and are paid to show off your skills in the specific sport; that is also why some stupid coaches look great if they got a lot of DRAFTED talent.... Talent also is seldom transferable AT THAT HIGHER level, to other sports. Meaning that IN HIGH SCHOOL it is common that the star in one sport is the star for any sport he or she practices.
So for a 100 meter runner, doing a marathon is counterproductive, it seems from what I hear here...(??) It seems to be the case anyhow.
Weight lifting for STRENGTH is the only thing you can improve and keep improving AT THAT LEVEL.
Man yal got that shirt made quick lmao
How about we just say what it is. Drugs obfuscate the understanding of what’s possible for the natural person, hence causing confusion on how one should train. If my competition uses drugs and I don’t, I’m already at a disadvantage that strength will not overcome. Skill will! Strength can only go up so high until the body weight has to change in order to gain more strength. Once that happens it becomes counterproductive for sports that have weight classes. For the general person who isn’t competitive, you can pretty much do what your body has enough energy to do. Starting Strength is made for those people. Outside of that it’s wack for real athletes as there are other factors that contribute to their success. Dustin Portier did extra strength training for Khabib. It still didn’t stop Khabib from taking him down like everyone else.
Why is the military wrong in doing 5 mile runs all year round when Rip said conditioning adaptations go away really quickly? If you want them to be at that level of conditioning that would suggest to me that you have to keep doing it, or it goes away
Probably he's meaning they do it with an exagerate frequency. I don't know how many times a week they run in the military, but probably doing the running just once every weekend would allow to mantain the adaptation quite nicely. The problem is they also have to carry an awful lot of weight, so they should indeed prioritize strength over conditioning. Roman soldiers had to walk miles a day, now we have trucks and choppers to transport them.
5 min hitting hard on heavy bag, got it! But how many rounds?
Dont do that! All you're accomplishing with 5 minute rounds (if your rounds are as long as 3 min) is- you will slow down your pace and exertion to accommodate a longer 5 minute round. You dont want to bring that in the ring with someone who is putting in more fire for 3 minutes. They will outwork you for those 3 minutes.
@@JoshBenware
How many bouts, how many rounds, how many wins, how may loses?
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 nothing spectacular. 8 fights, 5 wins, 3 losses. Most were smokers (three 1 minute rounds), and made it to semi finals in golden gloves (three 2 minute rounds).
@@JoshBenware Hey, man that's good! Would you have won any of those three if you'd been stronger and not been fatigued from running?
Loaded question, I know, but you need to get the point of what's being said.
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 thanks. What exactly are you asking? Running in training, or running in the ring? Just want to be clear on what you mean. If you are saying I was fatigued from running while training, that isnt the case. As you probably already know from your own experiences, the week before the fight we train light. Light work on all the bags, light sparring, light jogging, light training in general.
As far as running in the ring due to lack of strength, if that is what you meant, no. I used the ring when I was the taller fighter with the reach advantage, because, why get hit if you dont have to? When I fought taller guys I'd cut off the ring and use more head movement.
As far as power, I had plenty of that. I hit very explosively. I was almost always way more powerful than anyone I fought. Even when I sparred against guys 100 lbs heavier, they produced more raw force, but I produced more power (speed×force), so power was never a problem, and was actually my best attribute (besides heart. They called me the timex "takes a lickin, keeps on tickin" lol)
I'm gonna have to disagree on this strongly. I use to box. The first year I did not run. I just trained and lifted weights. I trained longer than the actual rounds (in ametuer boxing most fights were three 1 minute rounds, in golden gloves it was three 2 minute rounds). We trained in the gym in three minute round bouts. After finding myself severely gassed out in the third round, I finally decided to start jogging 3 miles at an 8 min/mile pace 5 days a week. This made it to where i had no problem fighting three rounds. I tried it both ways, i wanted to believe it the way you describe it on this video, but that simply is not true. If you can exceed the stamina standards needed, then you can perform well in the 2nd and 3rd round.
But wouldn't that be what Rip and Nick said, that at first the stimulus needed to improve conditioning is minimal but at some point you'll need to find a new more challenging stimulus. You have to remember that their coming from a coach teaching a brand new Novice and that you can aquire strength (in this case conditioning) without the their method but that their method is just more effective. You by the sound of it bulldozed past your initial novice starting point and found a way to build your conditioning up to where you needed a new stimuli that are you are fighting in a way that is causing you unnecessary amount of stamina which is another point which they discuss.
He's also missing the thing about strength being tied to conditioning. How much were you squatting and deadlifting when you were boxing? The answer to that is important to this discussion.
You jogged much more than necessary.
I was on both sides of it.
Began running 1 mile, then immediately trained kickboxing, twice per week (on top of regular 5 days/week Karate practice and teaching.)
Sparring night was immediately awesome!
After two months I got up to 3 miles also... no gain in endurance. Speed and power began diminishing noticeably.
Went back to 1 mile only twice per week, power and speed came back immediately, endurance remained the same.
Unless you have done both a tiny amount as well as your marathon per week, you don't know what the minimum is or at what point running hurts your performance.
@@robertbreland1338 fighting in a way that needs an unnecessary amount of stamina? How can you know that I was expending unnecessary energy? If I was the taller fighter in that fight, I'd use the ring and not get hit using my reach advantage. If I was the shorter fighter, I'd feint and slip my way in, cut off the ring, and make things happen. My footwork, punches, and other movements were done with efficiency, just as I was trained. I did what it took. I'm just not sure where you are coming up with this prescription of me using unnecessary amounts of energy.
"A 3 minute round is really 15 10 second rounds"
There is one problem with the two factor model. It doesn't apply to sports that require rhythm and technical nuance. The degree to which we develop strength through barbell strenght training exceeds the demands of certain sports and is counter productive to the development of skill and has its limits in how much further it can develop those who are said to be skilled. There is a reason why high level boxers or mma fighters dont owe their success to barbell program and many mediocre fighters tend to have spent more time in condtioning and strength programs. You see this especially in mma. Athleticism can take you only so far in combat sports when development of skill requires a pure commitment to the art and techniques itself your body and mind can only commit to so much and reap gains.
Scenerio:
You are going to be hit by Conner McGregor.
You can choose his fighting weight 143 lbs or 170 lbs or anything between.
Which do you chose?
You don't have to answer, we all know it is the smaller Conner with less muscle, less strength, less speed, and less power.
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 I weigh over 200 and there is no way in hell I would want to get into the ring with Conner MacGregor even if he does weigh only 143. Maybe a guy like Hafthor Bjornsson has a chance (6' 9" close to 450 lbs.). The rule I heard is that given two athletes with EQUAL skill, the stronger athlete has the better chance at winning. However, given two athletes with unequal skill, put your money on the athlete with more skill.
Strength is important in many sports - I am not arguing that it is not. Rip's problem is that he thinks strength can cure everything. It can't.
@@MikeXCSkier
He might think strength cures everything.
And maybe you're mind reader
e
Because how many of his podcasts have you listened to, how many articles have you read, and how many of his books have you read?
Because he has said, numerous times on the podcast alone, that *given equal level of skill*, the stronger fighter wins. He also makes the incredibly adroit observation that superior strength can make up for a differential in skill in some cases, which is very true in combat sports, as you start off saying in your first sentence.
You can't read minds, and you haven't written a very good argument.
*shrug*
Also, you don't have anything on your channel except that you follow some other lifting channels. Damn right an untrained nobody should not fight a trained fighter, no matter how smol that fighter is.
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 The existence of weight classes almost completely nullifies this for combat sports. If you wanted to increase your ability to fight in an absolute sense you would want to gain strength and weight as much as you can without trashing your cardio, technique, or flexibility, but there are limits in your ability to perform placed by weight classes as well. For example even if a guy like Mighty Mouse or even GSP trained to try and gain weight and muscle mass through strength training it is extremely unlikely that someone with their frame would ever get to the point where they could be heavy weight champion, but they were able to dominate a lower weight class. So strength training has very distinct limits in combat sports because bumping yourself up in weight class to compete against people who are naturally that weight without even trying or in actuality are naturally much heavier than that and are cutting weight is unlikely to be effective.
That's not to say that strength training shouldn't be a priority for combat sports, but you cannot be dedicated to it unless you are already a natural heavy weight or close to it to begin with lol.
@@joshuabrant3487 I don't have a response because I cannot recognize any substantial claim. I think maybe you're saying that weight classes more or less equalize fighters' strength/power for a better contest. That's not a claim though, it's what they exist for explicitly.
I can't understand what point you're making about Mighty Mouse and GSP not being bigger... I think you are claiming knowledge you cannot possibly have and I don't see the point of doing so anyway.
Keep it simple:
State your claim
State the evidence
State the reason the evidence supports your claim
I want to understand what you mean.
Aerobic conditioning is not the same as practice conditioning??
I mean, my heart is about to burst after the second set of heavy squats, by the fifth set it is pure faith the forces me to finish... that is aerobic !!
This is incorrect. A fast heart rate does NOT make something "aerobic." Please learn some basic physiology. Unless you are doing 100 reps with a light weight and pacing yourself, weight training exercises do not use the aerobic energy system. Most weight training uses the ATP-PC energy system with occasional dips into the glycolytic energy system. Having said that, when you rest between sets it is the aerobic energy system that helps to replenish ATP. So weight training can make small improvements to the aerobic system. The better choice is to do some (not a lot) aerobic conditioning while training for strength. This will help you recover faster between sets. I'm not talking about 10 mile runs here. Running a mile, maybe two, for 2-3 days a week is plenty.
@@MikeXCSkier
I know you're so damn sure you are correct... but you are not.
You do have a lot fo words but that still makes you more sure and more wrong.
Ask Rip, he'll explain it to you, I cannot remember the episode and he has some experts on the subject... "aerobic" is not even well defined... what exactly do you "work" when you work aerobically, the is no such thing as the "aerobic system"!!
Do yo mean the out of breath shit you get when you run long distances??
I'll look for the video, were they go in depth about this... if I find it I'll come back and post it here.
@@MikeXCSkier
Still haven't found the one I was thinking of, but here is another general great INFORMED view of the FACTS.
czcams.com/video/UdKOHI_YzKs/video.html
@@MikeXCSkier
czcams.com/video/Ty5zJdPrqys/video.html
This is if "running" is aerobic.
@@MikeXCSkier
What doctors say they know, and speak with authority, but don't.
czcams.com/video/Ug-UuIT0Lvs/video.html
What about nose breathing. Athletes often neglect it.
Training 5 minute rounds will not make you better at 3 minute rounds. It will only make you learn to work at a slower pace that can be maintained for 5 minutes. Same with training with heavier boxing gloves...it doesnt make you faster when you switch from 20 oz to 10 oz gloves. All you learn is to pace yourself slower, and you dont actually increase speed or power.
It will if you train at the speed and force of a three minute round.
@@jaghad not possible
Nope. It will make you better at 3 min. rounds. Runners also use this strategy tô run faster on shorter lengths. A guy who is trying to finish a 5km faster, runs sometimes 10km and the 5km speed goes up
@@genezysgoncalves5937 so, you trained 5 minute rounds and got better at 3 min rounds? How long have you been boxing, and how long did you train using 5 min rounds? Also, did your boxing club alter the timer during practice and make everyone practce 5 min rounds? Im eager to hear your response.
@@JoshBenware Ive been training for almost 4 years.
Not only I got better with longer rounds, but I also got better with strength training and flexibility work.
I don't know why you got triggered by that.
Not only 5 minute rounds were added, but also 1 minute super intense rounds with short combos and other strategies.
Get in a real fight, and you will understand what conditioning is all about because when you're out of gas, you're out of the fight .
There are 3 factors though. Strength, sport, and conditioning. Everyone knows that.
Sport as in skill?
@@SuperSt1an everyone knows there are 4 factors. Strength, sport, conditioning, and cardio.
@@SuperSt1an ok there are obviously 5 factors though. Strength, sport, conditioning, cardio, and karate, and everyone knows that.
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Vote Libertarian please! Thanks