Programming Series #3: Prilepin's Chart Explained - How to Pick Sets, Reps, and Weights for Strength
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- Many have cited Prilepin's Chart as the backbone of successful programs. This table, giving supposed 'optimal' rep and set ranges at given percentages, has been repurposed from Soviet Weightlifting machine into modern powerlifting programs. I discuss the origin's of Prilepin's chart and give my thoughts on it's shortcomings for strength and hypertrophy, along with modifications to make better training decisions that are relevant to powerlifting and strength training in general.
That was the friendliest rant ever
Hello there
Seeing you here makes me feel so much better.
The Olympic lifts have minimal eccentric component, so that instantly distorts the table for lifts that have eccentric work in them.
Absolutely. The Oly lifts and Power lifts have completely different training effects; lack of eccentric is a big one, along with greater range of motion and a very one dimensional training threshold. They also require wildly different physical adaptations for success. The blind blending of oly data into modern powerlifting protocols without even trying to mimic the same studies in a powerlifting context shows how deeply rooted psuedoscience and dogma are in modern training culture. It's something parading around as scientific when it is anything but.
@@AlexanderBromley People never take into account the nature of olympic weightlifting compared to powerlifting. Oly lifts inherently require fast movement, or else you won't complete the rep; training with rep ranges that will make you fatigue and slow your muscles down is counterproductive to even try. I also believe that the nature of oly lifts + the fact that these elite guys the soviets studied were handling immense weight regardless of percentage used, means that sets of 3 at 70% would elicit a training response for them, but this has nothing to do with powerlifting. Always preferred using RPE charts.
The irony that powerlifting isnt actually power lifting but Olympic.lifting is
Your channel is truly a gem of the CZcams fitness community. Thank you thank you thank you!
The only guy I can actually binge watch cos you present so well and I'm always finding gems of aha info. I took a screenshot of that chart cos it's gold.
Keep up the awesome videos. I love that the content is different than what everyone else is putting out. Just ordered one of those killer shirts too.
I appreciate the support! More apparel is coming, but I want to do some quality control before I advertise. Let me know how they come out!!
Thank you so much, brother... This is a such an eye-opener for a person who is transitioning from beginner to intermediate lifting.....
Down to earth , informative , inspiring . Thanks and keep it up .
Just awesome content... Whats awesome about it is that you can watch it the times you want you'll always take something out of it
I've been really struggling with programing for strength, specifically in regard to loading. I really like moving heavy stuff, like any other person watching a jacked dude rant about russian training protocols, but the loads are starting to beat me up. Some of your other stuff is a little hard for me to wrap my head around, but I think this one was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks man!
Exactly the youtuber i was looking for, thanks for this. You just got a new sub
Very interesting content, keep it up!
This is gold... your channel is gonna blow up man.
Fingers crossed lol
It deserves to. I just came across it recently. it's great.
I believe Prilepin’s #s are pretty spot on for frequency training for a natural. Can hit those numbers training a muscle group 3 times a week for quite awhile. They keep you in the 6-7 RPE range, away from sloppy technique, and allow training the same lift again in 48-72 hrs once you’re grooved and conditioned. Actually I only like getting into 9-10 RPE territory about once every 4-6 weeks as an old guy still training powerlifts. A fried CNS is not my cup o tea.
When I train in the heart of a 7-8RPE curve at the 25% extra volume, I would only be able hit a compound muscle movement twice a week, 72-96 hrs recovery. Just my two cents.
Really respect your perspectives and discussions. I subbed after the first post I saw of yours.
Brings up the question of frequency and fatigue as it pertains to choosing sets and reps! It stands to reason that higher frequency means lower efforts/volume on each session. I myself train squats and presses twice per week, so by default I end up breaking into the higher threshold a bit more often. I appreciate it!
I just found out about you, love your presentation on a lot of these topics and clearing up a lot of my (thought) questions.
Excellent video!!
Great explanation thank you!!!!
Prilepen's chart is great.
I find that most people set their estimated 1RM or 1RM too high.
Taking off 5-10% from that 1RM is highly valuable for someone trying to advanced.
Wendler's 5-3-1 program uses a *base* figure of 90% of your 1RM, so your percentage lifts are percentages of your *base* not the true 1RM
Matt Wenning recommends using the highest 1rm done without form breakdown
Hey man, I found your channel a week ago and your content is amazing! Can't wait to see you blow up
I was just wondering how you decide how much volume goes with each lift at a given percentage/RPE?
That has everything to do with the structure of your program and it is all relative. I've seen both hypertrophy and strength blocks that either increase sets over time or decrease and some more complex programs will have volume wave back and forth week to week. The simplest, most classical method is to start high volume and decrease sets over time; for a hypertrophy block I might start at 5 sets of 12 and add weight each week as I go to 4 sets of 12, 4 sets of 10, and 3 sets of 8 before moving into a strength phase, back to 5 or so sets and repeating the pattern with a lower rep range. On a 4 week block like that, I'll usually start with a 6 or 7, go to an 8 week 2, then push to a 9 on the last 2 weeks. I plan on putting together a more comprehensive video on all the options and how to narrow them down to your goals/circumstances
@@AlexanderBromley I just watched your new video on this topic and it was great! Thank you so much for the brilliant content
Talking about RPE and rep maxes in intensity ranges just makes me moist.
I’ve read all I could about Prilepins chart over the last two days. I think you present a good explanation for rejecting the chart but I think you also see the value. If we are honest, the chart is only useful for actual strength work and never hypertrophy or endurance. I also think we need a new 105% or 110% band to incorporate max effort power lifting to account for eccentric work in the lift. EMOM singles and doubles is really useful for building technique but that’s the 90% range. It’s usually done for 80% so clearly something is missing.
Anyways, the chart is a good test for the logic of a program. I think the more useful application is determining sensible progression as you transition between rep schemes... What do you do once you’ve exhausted your abilities in 5x5? Moving to 5x4, then 4x3, etc and running out each weight presents more logic than jumping from 5x5 then 3x3 because you could be losing a lot of volume and that’s been a massive problem for my own programming efforts. All icing, no cake.
Finally some mentioned what happens with too many managers 😀
Hi Alex,
I might understand this wrongly but, what is the appropriate number of sets for the newly created chart you did for yourself at the end?
I am asking this because I am under the impression that there should be a total volume of work done (i.e. total reps) against each prescribed intensity.
so if we work in the RPE ranges 6-8 via your chart, is there a prescribe number of set that I should target?
Hopefully my question makes sense.
In Wendler's book he mentions an equation (Epley) for estimating a max based on # of reps you can do with a specific weight or you can rearrange it and figure out #number of reps you should be able to do withna weight given a known max. He does not offer it as a hard rule, but more of a rule of thumb for getting an idea. There are other equations that do the same thing (Lomabardi, McGlothin/Lander). Have you commented on the usefulness of these? If not, I would be interested in your thoughts on using them to estimate maxes and rep ranges.
Thanks Alexander, do you find this chart works with very low weights. A 50kg bencher might get nowhere near 20 reps at 32.5kg for eg for 20 reps (RPE 10)
Can you do video about Greg Nuckols 28 programs? there is programs from begginers to advanced like bench 1 or 2 week same with squat and deadlift.
I have a TON of program examples I plan on sifting through and picking apart one by one, it's just going to be a big endeavor! I actually have that spreadsheet collection. It's on my list!
Hey Alex,
I love your breakdown of Prilepin's chart. I'm a nerd first and a powerlifter second and I love to look at the research and try to understand things more deeply, but your video made some very salient points I had never considered.
I'm curious, what's your opinion on this research coming out that suggests to maximize muscle protein synthesis you need 25 "stimulating" reps per muscle group per workout? Chris Beardsley at Strength and Conditioning Research has written a ton of articles on the subject. The idea is, only the last 5 reps of a set to failure are "stimulating" (if I understand correctly, ideally all 5 are RPE 9 and you're stopping right before you hit RPE 10). So theoretically, any rep range is the same for hypertrophy or for strength, what matters is that you always keep a certain level of intensity so that you're neither overtraining or undertraining and your body will always continue to grow (not linearly, of course, which is where periodization comes into play). Is this oversimplifying training for powerlifters?
Thanks, love your channel.
It's not a new idea. Mentzer-esque high intensity training was formed around the idea that the only valuable reps were the ones after fatigue sets in, taking it so far as to say that volume overall didn't matter. I've talked to other world class guys who believed similarly that the reps closest to the end of the set were the real 'growth reps', though some came to the conclusion that the more 'growth reps' you had the better, and countered HIT with multiple sets of high rep work to maximize that number.
I struggle with giving credit to any study that tries to make broad universal recommendations like that. Studies are only as good as their limitations and their ability to control for error; the one limitation that Exercise Science studies will never be able to eliminate are individual differences in response ALONG WITH how those responses change over time when returns diminish. That creates a level of variability for what is 'optimal' that requires a bigger pool of subjects to test than any of these programs will ever have access to.
It also feeds into the idea that there is some optimal metric you should be following RIGHT NOW and perpetuates the myopic approach of looking at the workout instead of the entire training block. There is no magic amount of volume or intensity in any one session because it is not the session, but the change in demand of sessions over time that creates growth. What is vitally important (which such a study can't speak to) is how you actually use such a principle to progress from today's workout to the next one because, without that, no one continues to grow past the point of stagnation.
Hey Alex, thanks for the detailed response. There's definitely some food for thought in there. One quick comment, according to Chris Beardsley 25 stimulating reps are necessary for maximum muscle protein synthesis, but you can go up to 50 stimulating reps before you start to actually cause more harm than good (it's possible to actually overtrain to the point of atrophy!). Personally, I like to break up those stimulating reps into primary movement and primary accessory so I'm not just burning myself out doing tons of volume on "bench press" for instance, but I digress. But what you're saying makes a ton of sense. Even if you're doing "5 stimulating reps per set" there could be a huge difference between doing 5 sets of 10 moderately heavy reps versus doing 5 sets of 5 heavy reps or even doing something like 8 sets of 3 very heavy reps. I would not be surprised to learn that there are other processes at work beyond just muscle protein synthesis that help explain the effects of a successful peaking cycle when prepping for a meet. Also, something Chris Beardsley never mentions (because it's something the research has hardly scratched the surface of), and something your channel also doesn't touch on much is how do steroids affect all of these numbers. I think it's wise to, like you say, learn what each individual body needs and then program that into a block that evolves over time to support a specific goal (1RM for most powerlifters).
How can I use this chart for bodyweight exercises. Like push ups, squats and pull ups
I have been doing fitness for about 14-15 years. For a month I started following Prikepins table for strength. At 70-80% of the 1RM I could still do so many repetitions. That doesn't sound good to me. I'm beginning to doubt that this table would be optimal for strength. So from the instinct I started to add a few repetitions / set exactly what you say at 13:59 minutes.
What do you think? to continue with this table?
These differences between individuals have a lot of different causes; gender, genetic predisposition, how advanced/specific you are to your specific sport, etc. A good coach will take all of these factors into consideration instead of blindly following a table. Without me knowing more about you and your goals, it's hard for me to make a suggestion, except to say, as long as you are consistently following a program that has SOME type of built in progression, you should continue to improve.
It's good to hear some common sense on Prilepin's chart. I never understood how this backward-looking data of professional athletes training 9-13 times a week, doing primarily different movements (other than squats) had much relevance to powerlifting programming.
And no, I don't believe these numbers are strictly from strength work, considering the goal of Soviet sports scientists for this effort was to increase snatch and clean & jerk.
Someone I "engage" with is frequently calling upon Prilepins 'curve' and I'm not sure what they mean beyond the F-V curve. They argue 15 sets of 10 at 66% is equitable to 10 sets at 75%. I understand from an overall load but they dont seem to hear that this isnt a forever model. I could do a 100reps with an empty bar cliché
Is there a place where amateur lifters post there lifts and can get some critique from others?
There are a lot of misc. FB groups and forums, but most become too saturated with new lifters and turn into a shit show of bad info/advice.
So what you're saying is if you're a weightlifter or do a jumping sport, then Preplin's Chart is fine?
I realize this is constantly asked, but I’m curious what the current popular choice is for a program for a “beginner” who has been lifting for over 5 years but never made it far due to poor or no programming. Can someone recommend a program that doesn’t leave a ton of decision? Hoping for something power-building related.
I was considering going with barbell medicine’s beginner template, but it seems weird to pay with so much free info out there.
About me: I’m 37 and haven’t made significant progress since high school, still (1rm, lbs) squatting ~300, bench 200, dL 420. 6’2”, 200lbs and around 14%bf.
Dude, those are more early intermediate numbers than anything else. But if you've never done basic linear progression do starting strength for a couple of months, deload, then do 5/3/1 for a few months. After those gains then you gotta do research on how to program for intermediate. Doing starting strength and 5/3/1 got me to 430lb squat and deadlift, 295 bench, and 185 overhead press. Not amazing numbers but a good base. I'm in the research part now too, digesting a lot of info trying to figure this out.
Tyler C C thanks man, I was leaning towards SS with 531 also on my radar. I think I may go with this advice.
Dude try increasing your work capacity with some GPP, high volume work( INcrease sets instead of reps) and barbell complexes, and rerun your linear periodization program. You are only as strong as your ability to recover. Or you can use Step loading and master different rep ranges until you are able to do high reps in loads you were not able to do so. for progressing further. Check Greg Nuckols's article on work capacity & his article on what to do if you hit on a plateua.
www.strongerbyscience.com/making-your-novice-strength-training-routine-more-effective-two-quick-tips/
www.strongerbyscience.com/increasing-work-capacity/
Redlands, CA! Got an uncle that lives there. Good brewery called Hanger 54 out there.
Been there more times than I care to admit!
Around 2 and 1/2 minutes a comment was made about how anything can be unproductive. It definitely related to the gym and a job I used to have. Too many Cooks in the kitchen creates a toxic environment anywhere!
A lot of the questions and assumptions Bromley makes were covered by Pavel on Joe Rogan
alexander i have all joshuah stuff but your better . your books are tremedous . josh has good stuff but i learned way more from you today i started the superior deadlift program plan a from your book i will let you know how it goes
I don't get the rep and set examples
Why does it say 6-10 x 3, or 3-5 x 6 is the first one if the modified version has 8-12 reps
Prilipens chart gives 18-30 total reps at 3-6 reps as a recommendation at that percentage; 6x3=18, 10x3=30, 3x6=18, 5x6=30. For Oly work, those reps make sense. For hypertrophy work (or for any general weight lifting goal that doesnt include a clean or snatch) those reps make zero sense at that percentage. The modified range includes very accepted, very old wisdom that 8 to 12 reps at that percentage range is optimal for muscle growth. Prilipens chart doesnt include that range because it's an Oly chart and those reps are absurd for Oly lifting.
@@AlexanderBromley yes I understand that but if you recomend 8-12 reps, why give as an example 6-10 sets of 3 reps ?
@@justingarssacoche because that's what Prilipens chart recommends. This video is a critique of Prilipens chart.
@@AlexanderBromley I thought it was your recomendations. Thanks
Prilepins chart wasn't made for the olympic lifts, it was made for the strength work of olympic lifters. Older powerlifting parameters predating the chart are irrelevant, the chart was reverse engineered from a set of results. Good points about the nuances of weightlifters and fatigue though. The chart definately needs another aspect of intensity to be used well and create meaningful progressions for a program.
You have a source that specifies it was not data derived from cleans, snatches, and jerks? What do you mean by 'the strength work'?
@@AlexanderBromley Oly lifters don't build a stronger squat by cleaning. Those that try are banging their heads against the wall, as you likely understand. Prilepins chart isn't a magic bullet for everybody, its a summerization of a particular data set of a particular demographic. Research has pitfalls like that, as I think you demonstrated well. I'll try to provide a link to source.
Prilepin’s chart is useful for determining the set/ rep scheme that goes with a certain amount of weight...how much weight is being used, cross-reference that on Prilepin’s chart, and PRESTO!, you have the set/ rep scheme.
Lol yeah but no
Google- Relative intensity chart
Was doing a 3x9 today at 79% lolllllllllll no wonder it was death
Hey Alex, is there a way I can get an hour of your time? It doesn’t need to be free…
Sure thing, DM me through IG
So dont use it for power lifting. Duh. Obviously its meant for olympic. That, or y'all been hanging everything off a loada sheit.
Why make this video since you have no experience. Not interested in opinion.
Prilepins is bullshit for powerlifting. You determine the parameters by observing your lifters reaction to training stresses and adjust the program as needed.
I am conducting an experiment with this chart r general strength training. I am making.a couple of assumptions:
1) although this may not be correct it’s the only way to be logical and.consistent. That is the optimal reps is consistently the mean (or average of the two rep extremes). That suggests that the mean represents the median between peerages;(the other issue is with percentage overlap which leads to inconsistent reps at the crossover if you use the first assumption. For example if rep ranges are 12-24 b/w 70-80% and you assume 80% uses 12 reps as the rep for high loads perhaps ratcheting up to 18 using 3-6 reps per set. One may argue you begin with 4 sets of 3 reps for 12 total and move up to 4 sets of 4, then 3 sets of 5 until 3x 6 are attained which equals 18 (or something like that).
So for assumption 1 if you are starting at a particular place whether the low end of weight and high end of reps, the goal is to ultimately hit optimum reps with the highest percentage.
Assumption 2 is that the next range of % starts 1% higher as the overlap makes no sense.
Assumption 3. Because Olympic lifts require a larger range of motion, more power, arguably a greater rate of force development using sub-maximal loads during certain phases, this chart obviously is used by lifters as a guide to the amount of volume and intensity used for lifts that must be fast and cannot slow down during a set unless sub optimal training is your goal.
Therefore, the argument posited by pure strength athletes (powerlifters and strongman is that these loads and volumes
are on the low side.
Therefore, my experiment involves weighted push-ups at a 2 inch deficit using accommodating resistance in the form of bands in addition to straight weight. I am also using close grip paused weighted push ups.
I am 50 years old and hit my best raw and slingshot paused bench press in training at 45. This was after rehabilitation from my first major shoulder surgery. Shortly after this, I was training to hit another PR in 12 weeks and got injured again. It was due to an awful situation where some moron at a commercial gym didn’t understand pause benching after I explained it and grabbed the bar mid lift pulling it into the uprights and dislocAting my shoulder. The load was for a set of 4 when I could have done 6. I don’t compromise form and use heavy loads to failure because of the risk of losing the groove and getting hurt but I digress.
I now do weight push ups and dips because of the closed chain . So I began the program training push pull legs 2 times over a 9 day training week. 2 on 1 off etc The first day is heavy push. Main movement is parallel to slightly reverse as in a slight angle so the top of each hexagonal dumbbell is farther apart towards my head similar to a v shape. This keeps by elbows tucks with stacked wrists, slightly elevated feet, grip alongside my lower chest /sternum. I pause at the bottom for 1
second, lowering under control and lock out at the top using compensatory acceleration. The first heavy day was 5x3 with 85% and an additional 80-100 pounds of tension that get radically more challenging at the top and the estimated total load at the bottom assumes about 30-40 pounds of band tension at the bottom as the bands are all knotted to create immediate tension. I have a weight vest that only holds 100 lbs so I am using a ruck sack where I can get up to 200 pounds of weight and be less constricted. The 85% off the chest with an extra 40 pounds enabled me to complete all 5 sets for a total of 15 reps with an RPE of between 6-8 as I progressed. The next workout was 70% at the bottom of a paused pronated close grip push up using an Olympic bar with my feet slightly elevated. my strength is about equal on both variations.
I used 70 % at the bottom with slightly more band tension. About 100-115 at the top. I did 4x6 with RPE of about 7-8. The higher reps made the initial sets a little tougher than 85% for 3 reps.
I am going to spend the next 2 workouts with the same load with the goal of getting 85% for 20 total reps going to 5 sets of 4. Then I will increase the load by 2.5% and start over. When I get to 90% I will start off with doubles slightly less band tension and heavier straight weight at the bottom and work up to 4 reps.
This is certainly a modification but I think/know it will work in getting me a little stronger although it is a deviation from the chart. I may ratchet the resistant up on the light day without ever changing the band tension. I will be at 75% when I am at 90% on the heavy day. Assuming all goes as planned I will start the program over with slightly more load. 5-10 pounds of straight weight. The problem is I have to make sure my body weight
Doesn’t decrease. A slight increase is ok and I won’t change
The load but a decrease of 5-15 pounds depending on when I train could result in a failed experiment so I will weigh in before each work out in a t shirt and shorts, no shoes. That’s how I dress when I do these exercises
For guys doing heavy day a light day or doing a heavy day a medium day in a light day, I think the shirt actually makes quite a bit of sense, the volume drops off dramatically is the intensity goes up and I think if you're training with a frequency of 2 to 3 days a week you're probably going to need something like that. If you're training once a week I think the chart is worthless even twice a week I think you probably need a little more volume as you get into the 85 and 90 range as far as the sets go if you were training only twice a week with one of those days being light with some more apps or dynamic
In my experience does people get stronger, they often are better off doing a few more sets at a high percentage where all the sets are fairly explosive which is why I would recommend one or two reps in 90% and a lot of sets rather than doing three or four grindy s*** wraps obviously if you're not benching at least 500 lb two wraps with 90% probably is going to be too few but if your legitimately a 500 bencher and you need to pause your apps with 4:55 or so with perfect technique and a fast up stroke you're better off than if you lower the way to 405 and try to do five sets of five for your grinding in the last two sets. Obviously there's a time and a place for everything and if you're looking for hypertrophy and also a combination of strength of 5 by 5 or 5 by 6 with somewhere around 80% of your one rep max might make sense but 85% for a real Big adventures is not the kind of way you're going to be doing much more than one set of 5 or 6 reps. With 90% using a pause and compensatory acceleration I might be able to get one set of four wraps. If I do touch and go and use kind of loose form in a couple grinders I might be able to get a couple more reps but that's not what I'm trying to do I get stronger by making sure my reps speed technique is all consistent and I just rest longer and do a few more sets with a wrapper to left in the tank if the reps are going to be grindy. 90% of what I last did as a Mac 6 months earlier is probably no longer 90% anyways it's probably more like 85%. The one thing I like about 531 with the exception of the low volume in terms of stats on the core exercises is that most people who don't take through Max's completely rely on a projected Max chart which completely overestimates how much you can lift for most people. If 90% keeps people honest meaning it's a little too light but you're still no question going to complete all your repetitions and then on the Amtrak that you can work hard. I think that brilliance of 531 assuming you can get by with the low volume is that once you get several months into it you're going to be lifting weights that you can now handle and own that before you may have been able to lift at the peak of a cycle but you didn't really have the strength lock down the way you will after starting a little light and going through three or four months making 5 to 10 lb increases on heavy barbell movements when things start to slow down and you can get the wraps easily but no more than the set number of 53 and 1, now the program is starting to peak