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SMAILS Vs TORTOISE Point Motors / Switch Machines at Chadwick Model Railway | 208.
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- čas přidán 7. 12. 2023
- The Smail is the DCC upgrade to the Tortoise Point Motor / Switch Machine from Circuitron, but is it worth the extra outlay. Here at Chadwick Model Railway 208, we find out.
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I mention in this video that trains can get stuck on Electro-frog points that are set against their direction of travel.
This causes a short so the train cannot move.
By creating a separate “track power bus” for point operation, this situation will not arise. However, the wiring does become more involved.
wiring all the accessories on a separate booster is a good idea anyways, as it will allow more power to the locos from the main control station
Yes I agree. Currently my accessories are on the same power. However I have a new power booster which I will implement in the new year as I have seen the accessory issue with points before. @@AmauryJacquot
A dcc accessory bus does not involve particularly more involved wiring. It is simply another power district in effect.
That is what I was thinking. I guess Digitrax has separately protected channels?
if you put SMAILS is the power that you get out you're digital control centre enough if you only use SMAILS or a different like a module that use normal 12v like u showed is better for bigger layouts
Love the SMAILS. Digitrax stationary decoders tend to "go up in smoke" after a couple of years, so I've replaced most of my Tortoises and Digi decoders with SMAILS as the failures have happened. The decoders in the SMAILS have been very reliable so far, with less wiring required.
Thanks Charles, for an excellent recommendation. Regards, Charlie
You answered my immediate smail/snail question straight away! ;-)
It always bewildered me too Davie. Regards, Charlie
I currently use Cobalt digital motors as they are so easy to programme and install and have a life time guarantee.
Have you had any that lose their address? Simon? Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway No but I did have one that got fried as we have a lot of power cuts where I live. This was repaired and is being sent back to me. Their customer service is second to none. Love the channel and well done on the 100K
I use a similar TT300 point motors and to get around the issue where the DCC Bus has shorted, we operate with power districts. So we split the bus with a Digitrax PM42, one district dedicated to Accessories, the others to the running lines. So in the case where you run into a closed turnout and the bus shorts, it only affects that district and as the TT300 is being run from another one, you can still switch it without issue. For wiring, the TT300 is powered from the Accessory district and the Frog it switches is powered from the appropriate running line district
Thanks Vonzack, what an excellent solution. Regards, Charlie
Very clear video. Think I'll stick to snails with garlic butter.
That’s a frightening thought. Regards, Charlie.
Useful video for me my fiddleyard is in s shed next to my main shed and my points being on a separate bus from my locos I can’t control them from the fiddleyard shed now I can thanks to a pack of push buttons from Amazon,6 installed so far 5 more to go thanks Charlie
I’m so pleased that the video has been useful Stephen. Regards, Charlie
"The Hand of God"?! I never thought of myself like that, but I'll take it.
But perhaps with a small g. Regards, Charlie
Thanks Charlie, interesting and food for thought !
Like Simon Bradshaw, I also use a separate Accessory Bus so wouldn’t have the issue you describe around stranded trains at short circuited point frogs.
Currently I am using DCC Concepts iP Digital point motors which, in the main, I like. They’re very similar in concept to the SMAIL. But I have had problems with the iP Digital motors in that out of 24 I purchased, so far I’ve had to send 8 back as they’ve failed (in fairness though none have failed in the last six months although another one is starting to make the telltale sounds of failure recently).
But, and this is an important “but”, DCC Concepts offer a lifetime warranty on their motors so sending them back isn’t an issue beyond the aggravation involved in getting under the board to remove and replace them and the cost of postage.
I’ve recently installed two MTB MP1 point motors with a YaMoRC controller and I have to say that I’m pretty impressed with them. So I’ve been sitting on the fence as it were about whether to continue with cobalt iP Digital or MTB for the rest of my railway which is a significant further requirement for point motors. Reliability is crucial to me.
Having recently seen a video showcasing new digital versions of the MTB motors in the form of their forthcoming DP1, DP4 and DP10 products, I’m starting to lean over the fence in favour of MTB ! Either way, as good as those SMAIL motors appear to be, I don’t think they’re for me.
Thanks Bryan, for such an excellent comment. However, I have Issues with the DCC concepts lifetime warranty.
Perhaps it’s not the lifetime of the component, but rather the lifetime of the company! Regards, Charlie
Is this video on CZcams regarding the New Digital Mtb switches ?
No, the main production run has to appear at the retailers. They are known as the DP4 and DP10.
Once available, I’ll film a review.
Regards Charlie.
I did all that stuff, with smail directly from my digitrax DCS52. I programmed each of my smails from the DCS52. He is using a DT602T which I have but that handheld is connected to the DCS52. Each one of my switch motors has a switch signal signals (Green and Red).
That’s great news, Kim, I’m so pleased you’ve had such success. Regards, Charlie
Awesome Video. These are keeping up with the DCC concept turnouts I feel.
Yes, perhaps you’re right. Regards, Charlie
This is probably one of the best explanations of a model railroad product I’ve seen. You did a great job of simplifying things in an easy to understand format.
That’s very kind of you to say so
Mr Benchwork. Regards, Charlie
When I first discovered (of course via one of your videos) the DCC Concepts equivalent of SMAIL I was really happy because (ever since I returned to the hobby in the 2010s) I always had the feeling that the idea of controlling point motors via intermediate driver boards (DS64 et al in your Digitrax context) was a very 20th century solution. In these days of the WiFi controlled light switch (and all that example represents!) attaching accessories direct to "the network" (in this instance DCC) seemed like a much neater and modern solution - even noting the side issues you highlighted here.
Of course there is still a need to solve one major issue in most commercial products and that is how you simplify and ruggedise the feedback path. For example, your DCC controller may command a motor to set a point, but there is no out of the box mechanism for the motor controller to acknowledge completion via the same communication path - you need to create your own back channel (I am using WiFi for that). So, it's not ideal, imagine if your computer needed two broadband cables one to send commands to access website and another for the actual website content to travel down! So, DCC doesn't help a lot with command/Acknowledge at the moment, though you can use RailCom as a back channel, but sadly not all devices support that.
Thanks for a nice walkthrough these useful products Charlie.
Thanks Alan, for an interesting comment. With my system LocoNet provides that data flow to and from the modules. Regards, Charlie
Excellent video Charlie. Seeing this reminded me that I've followed your wiring standards since I returned to building my own layout and do not regret it for one moment.
Another plus is that if I loose my way or run into a problem I have your tutorials readily available to set me right.
I can't thank you enough.
Thanks Steve, that’s very kind of you to say so mate. Good luck with your project, regards, Charlie
I do admire your knowledge of railway modeler acronyms. It demonstrates a sound understanding of the subject.
Thanks Mr librarian, you’re too kind. Regards, Charlie
What I like about the Tortoise is that even though it is slow, you can make it even slower by using resistors in the line. Then you can make them as slow as you want. The one thing I didn't like about the Tortoise was that you used a dpdt switch. I like the single buttons better as then you can place them in the track plan on the side of the road. It seems that we are in opposite schools about the kind of control. I guess that this comes from the fact that I was raised on the old coil switch machines and started with the buttons in the lines on the front of the road. On my last club layout we went as far as to have red and green LED lights inserted in the track lines on the front of the road. When you set the switch the green lights would come on for the track that the switch was set for and red lights would come on for the branch that the switch was thrown against. It was very easy for the operator to see just where the rain was going and for visitors to operate the road. I really didn't realize that these had a 9 year warranty!!!
Thanks David, for sharing your thoughts on the tortoise. It remains an excellent commodity. Regards, Charlie
8:53 I prefer the throw (sp?) button over the two buttons too.
P.S. I live in Canada and I call them 'points' not 'turnouts' too.
Thanks Edward, I’m so pleased that you found the video interesting. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway You are more than welcome. You should be a teacher, you are excellent in explaining different aspects of building a model layout. I look forward to new videos!
Interesting video Charlie, as you say, swings and roundabouts
Yes, indeed, Martyn, or horses for courses. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, I've learned so much from you (including British phrases) Thank you! I think I may use them. Simpler to wire with the same benefits is a big plus to me.
I’m so pleased that you found it. Useful Chris. Regards, Charlie
I use the Dcc concepts digital point motors they come with a lifetime guarantee I’ve only had to send back 1 motor so far and has the advantage of being in the UK so it took around a week turnaround
That’s great news Stephen , regards, Charlie
A good, no-nonsense video, Charlie 👍
Thanks Jeff, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
To prevent a short circuit by a loco running into the frog when the points are set for the other road, isolate the rail leading away from the frog, about 12 inches, say. Then connect a wire from that rail to the common terminal on a spare switch on the switch motor. Connect the track wire for that rail to one of the other two terminals (trial and error to find the correct one). Then that length of track will be unpowered when frog is incorrect polarity and loco will stop without short circuit.
Wow Tom, I’m sold on that one. Much appreciated, regards, Charlie
Credit to DCC Concepts, who illustrate it in one of their advice pieces. @@ChadwickModelRailway
Another timely video, Charlie. An excellent no-nonsense demo of the differences between the basic Tortoise and the Smail. I also appreciate the comments from Simon and Bryan which underline the need for a separate accessory bus; I was starting to lean in that direction but their remarks have convinced me. Also, interesting reference to the MTB MP1 with which I am totally unfamiliar so maybe it's time for a follow-up Swift on that subject? Cheers, Peter
To be perfectly honest, Peter, I would keep your powder dry until MTB announce their new Digital point Motors. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Yes agreed Charlie, interesting times ahead in the point motor department I think.
I think a Swift on the MP5/6 would be useful tho. Especially regarding their profile and how they fit into smaller spaces? Just a thought.
There was a full video on the MP1 and MP5 a while ago. I note there is also now an MP6 and MP10 available although I've not read up on how they are different from the MP5 (looks like the MP6 works from a short burst to make it compatible with passing contact switches so people can replace solenoids).
I bought a few MP1 motors to play with and was wondering if they would work with an Arcomora DCC Next decoder.
I do like the MTB MPx motors as they don't consume any current after they reach the end of their travel.
Thanks, Charlie, great to see to SMAIL that will control points.
Thanks Mike, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Another great Video.
Thanks mate, much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
Another great 'how to' Charlie!!! Thanks for sharing this video! Cheers Onno.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Onno. Regards, Charlie
A well presented video Charlie, Thanks for taking the time to produce
You’re most welcome, Robert. Regards, Charlie
Thank you for another easy to understand video, oh Grand Master of Model Railway electronics. Plenty of food for thought of different options to consider. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪.
Thanks Anders, that’s most kind. Regards Charlie
Great video as always
Thanks Samuel, that’s most kind. Regards Charlie
Good video Charlie. I've used Tortoise motors for many a year. There is another way to operate them via DCC. I use an NCE Switch 8 Mk2. It controls up to 8 motors either via the Throttle or panel switches. Combined with a Hex frog juicer it's all a very easy system to set up.
Plus with the Frog juicer you can run against the frog and not short out the whole layout. It does mean the loco derails, but thats what happens in real life! 😃
Many thanks for your interesting comment, and your alternative method. Still somewhat unsure about the derailing! Regards, Charlie
Awesome Video Charlie On My Model Railway i Ues DCC Cobalt IP Digital Point Motors With The Cobalt S Levers To Switch The Point Motors the Cobalt S Levers they give you a realistic feel and i been Rebulding my model railway .cause i recently moved to new house
Thanks Christopher, and good luck with your project. Regards, Charlie
I have some DCC enabled point motors. I usually run the point motors on their own power district so they don't stop working if a short or power outage occurs with track power.
I did initially have them powered by track power directly, and I did run into that issue of shorts causing issues, so havign a separate power district for the points helped reduce the hand of God coming into the mix.
Thanks EA, you have worked the same solution as many other modellers. Regards Charlie
Another useful video on product Charlie, thanks for taking the time to do all this. Frankly I dont know how you do it; hvg just become an oldie as the Aussies used to say, planning the day is key as so much to do! (I DIY all my classic car maintenance while fitting in MR construction, kit building and gen house stuff). I watch your videos to keep my mojo going as not alot has moved in 4 years and my last status was fitting analog Cobalts with their central ADSFX 8 way decoder boards, all with independant power from a 16v feed from the HM2000 that came with the Orient Express set. I then use an ESU 50200 which I invested in and has been the best thing since sliced bread IMO esp the loco and acc selection and track planning LCD layout screen. I really need to make a concerted push to get the track wiring completed and run some locos as watching your video makes me v jealous. 😉
Rest assured, Paul , time management is a gift and a curse. Regards, Charlie
Very interesting video Charlie, as are the comments. Thanks for the effort you go to in making these videos and explaining everything so clearly. An amazing insight to how complicated a hobby this can be if you choose to go down that path. Roy.
Thanks Roy, I’m so pleased that you find the channel interesting. Regards Charlie
I suspect the way around the Smail's problem with not being able to change the point if there is a short circuit, killing track power, would be to have a separate power bus just for the smails....
Yes Ken, that’s precisely the answer. Regards, Charlie
Very interesting video Charlie, Loved it
Thanks Alan, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Of all the YouTybers I watch you dialogue is always the best@@ChadwickModelRailway
You’re making me blush Alan.
Regards Charlie
I really enjoyed this... thank you so much!
Thanks Kevin, so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards, Charlie
You have the best rail channel, you should be at 100K already. Come on CZcams....
Thanks Steve, that’s most kind mate. Regards, Charlie
Many thanks for the presentation!
You’re most welcome, Mike. Regards, Charlie.
If you can solder electronic parts (not surface mount) I can recommend MERG. I use CBUS, and the kits that can operate points and Train On Track Indicators (TOTIs) are very much cheaper than ready made items.
Thanks Philip, I do hope the subscribers find your suggestion useful. Regards, Charlie
The problem you raised at 13:00 is solved by having a separate booster for the switching decoders.
Thanks for a nice video.
I agree, but it kind of defeats the object for what they were designed for, namely simplicity. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway
Unfortunately it is possible to create the same breakdown with ordinary turnout decoders, how do I know this? have fallen into that trap myself on a large club model railroad layout.
A tip for everyone: make sure all accessories get their power from their own accessory source.
Hi Charlie
Nice piece of equipment. I have solved the dcc problem by connecting all the dcc point switching decoders to a separate booster which does nor switch off due to short. I know it takes more wiring but on a layout which is devided into several booster sections anyway this is not a big issue. It does savesyou from manually pushing locos arround
Thanks Gerben, however, it is always disappointing that we have to find a workaround to solve the designers omissions . Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, as said below another excellent and informative video.
I used a different policy on this subject which gets rid of the shorting issue and any possible derailment issues, I fitted auto-frog devices to the live frog and then used the point machine switch to isolate a section of track leading up to the point so that is the point is against the loco it stops short of the point.
Thanks Brian, you’re not the 1st to mention this alternative arrangement. I shall certainly look into it. Regards, Charlie
Another top video Charlie, it's great to hear about the pro's and con's of this kit. Electrical shorts, even in hot weather are something to be avoided. Certainly if the 'hand of God' is busy sorting out something else at the time. Once again, many thanks for sharing.
Thanks Anthony, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
point motors are a bit of an odd one because they are very useful for a larger layout and a bit less faf on a small layout but the size of those!! i’ve got a board that doesn’t have a bit underneath so these would look… interesting. thanks for the video charlie!!
I’m so pleased that you found it. Interesting little Locos. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie - These shorts are a good way of dealing with specific items. 🙂 I think you are missing a trick here with the smail! I am considering these at £22 from Hattons because I have installed mostly Traintronics TT300 point motors on my Train Controller layout and they are now as rare as hens teeth... The TT300 also has an integrated DCC decoder) I don't suffer from your short issues because I have a second DCC bus around my layout for accessories from which I run the point motors - this is run from a booster like your districts. The track can trip and still leave power on the points so I can move the points. This does require the use of a handset as TC does not let you move the point when track is frozen.
I will buy some to test however the only drawback for me is the depth below the board compared with the TT300.
One test I would like to see is that do they retain their position when power is removed or do they default to a position? The TT300 did default and after investigation I found I had to change a CV to turn off the auto DC power function for it to retain the last position.
Edit: I now see that a few more of your disciples have a second bus for accessories.
Edit 2: I now have 3 so will swap out one shortly and report back.
Thanks for your comment Paul. However, it’s disappointing that people need to modify their wiring systems to accommodate a short fall in the design. Regards, Charlie
Thank you, Charlie. Very useful, well explained, discussed at the right level and tempo. And thank you for not droning.
You have confirmed for me my decision regarding power. Two buses as stated by commentators below.
I have started with Cobalt iP Digital but I'll give MTB a look. The subject of your next swiftie video, perhaps?
Oh, and I'm a toggle switch guy as well.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Don. Rest assured, once those Digital motors are released, there will be a video to follow. Regards, Charlie
My experience on my club layout leads me to think that a switch problem that requires direct manual intervention to clear is a bad idea in general, and unacceptable on a large model railway... as such I think I'd avoid those SMAIL switch motors unless there was a very good reason to install them in a particular location, and ban their use with track power on the main line, entirely.
I understand your point of view Matthew. However, I believe they are aimed at the smaller layout Moadeller. Regards, Charlie
Great video Charlie. As others have commented, I also use an additional booster for all my accessory decoders. I found that the stall motors, can trigger current detection block sensors depending on the number of turnouts. I use cobalt digital IP, and have been very satisfied.
Thanks mate, that’s very interesting. I think smails are aimed at a smaller layout. Regards, Charlie
Great explanation on the good and bad of Smails. I am building an HO layout with DC power. I bought Tortoise switches for my layout. But think given your explanation here I think I will stick with the Tortoise even if I eventually switch over to DC. Thanks for all of the great videos. I have learned quite a bit from them and hope you continue your channel for a long time. Even though I am American but I really like your easy manner and and dry sense of humor. Thanks for the lessons Charlie!
Thanks Steve, it’s comments such as yours that make the whole thing worthwhile. Regards, Charlie
I use lamps to protect the layout sections, And still have output from the DCS 210 because the lamps don't indicate to the DCS 210 that there is a short. The Snail could be fed from the output and not the track, Could it not? I already have the feeds to my Tortoises from the control board so changing some of them wouldn't be a problem for me. Thank you for the video and I can tell by what you put together to show us the drawbacks, that this took time to do. Well done and thank you for the effort you put in, to make this video.
Thanks Sam, I’m so pleased that you appreciate the effort. Regards, Charlie
great video dont really understand the electrical side with power bus and all dcc would love to have a dcc loco but the costs are the thing that puts me off having said that i do enjoy your explanations .kind regards Geoff .i would like to take this opportunitity to wish you and your family a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Thanks Geoff, that’s most kind. And the same to you and your family at this time of year. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, as others have said the issue of shorts shutting down what is essentially your ‘control bus’ is an issue that needs to be considered. If you’re implementing PM42s (or other power managers) you could dedicate one of the sub-districts as an accessory bus or feed the accessories from the command station output directly. As another option I’ve just picked up a couple of the Tam Valley Depot DCC Boosters which are aimed at solving this problem as well as providing a universal 5 A booster (the functionality is selectable via an on-board link). Really enjoy your videos and these discussions, thank you - rooting for you to get the 100k!
Thanks Steve, I think we all know the answer, but the publicity behind this switch machine is somewhat one-sided. Regards, Charlie
Great video and thanks for showing this. You have convinced me to the value of separating an accessory and traction power dcc bus at the very least.
Would love a video on the use of servos.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it, however, I know absolutely nothing about servos. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, great video as always. I use DCC Concept point motor which work similar to the Tortoise and Smail point motors
A good choice, Michael. Regards, Charlie
I have all my points on a separate accessory bus. This is when I have a short I can still operate my points. My power districts I have 8 using Psxx breakers. They report shorts back to TC via on opto detection module. I can then “ deal” with the short via TC. I also have an emergency stop. That has 2 functions either a dead stop for all trains or a slow stop where each train will run into the next block and stock. These functions are controlled by physical buttons on the facia or via tc switch board. Each button only emergency stop controls/stops it’s respect power district
Many thanks for your comments Daz. However, I think that these point motors are aimed at the much smaller layout. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway agreed. Still love to have a play with a few though
Love the video Charlie,always good to know the difference between two similar products by the same company,all the best nkt.
Thanks NKT, that’s most kind. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie that was very interesting thank you.
Thanks Tony, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Very interesting and informative video as usual Charlie. I'm sorry to say that this just adds to my dislike of DCC and all that goes with it. My H&M solenoid motors of 60+ years still work fine, they've cost very little in comparison and the simple addition of a microswitch or two operated by the arm on said solenoid is perfection itself. The only thing not in their favour is the sudden action of the solenoid and the fear of this possibly breaking the point. Well; sensibly fitted and adjusted there is no reason why this should be. I've certainly not experienced it.
Doubtless, we could/will continue this conversation at our next meeting (see you there!) Remember I have a Grandson and I'm not afraid to employ him on my side!
Happy Christmas!
Many thanks for the great comment, and hopefully I’ll see you at the show. Regards, Charlie
It’s good to see they’ve updated the Tortoise for DCC. Even though I’m an MBT MP1 user, I still have a bit of a soft spot for these.
I can't see why the MBT motors are not more popular , you don't see many videos about people using them
I think it’s more the case that as soon as they come in to stock, they sell out. And there’s not many people who actually make videos I guess.
I believe their digital equivalents will be in the shops in the early months of next year. Regards, Charlie
I’ve very much been looking forward to the digital version of the MBT - going to save me a whole lot of wiring on the N Gauge layout Charlie 👍
Hi Charlie, A very informative video on SMAILS Vs TORTOISE point motors. As already suggested you could create a separate power district for the point motors. Regards, David.
Yes David, I’m very aware of that. However, I was clearly following the instructions, and emphasising their shortcomings. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie - it may be worth pointing out that the older version of the Smail does not have the Terminal Block for easy wiring if like me you struggle with soldering on small terminals
Thanks Steve, yes I was made aware of that later. Regards, Charlie
What I did was to control the SMAILs from a dedicated DCC circuit rather than using track power. That eliminates the issue with locos running into shorts and having to use the Hand of God.
Yes James, that seems to be the only way around it. However, it does mean yet another DCC run. Regards, Charlie
Just noticed that MTB have made a version of their point motor that is a direct replacement for the tortoise with the same mounting points .
That’s correct, the MP 10 has the same Foot dimensions. Regards Charlie
Very well explained .Not for me but I can see the use .With everything else cost is a big issue in our hobby which seems to be getting more and more expensive .
I can only totally agree, David, the prices seem to be skyrocketing. Regards, Charlie
Yet another interesting video from Charlie. I'm not sure that the "swift" title is justifies at 18 minutes (and when describing slow acting devices) Good to watch and full of information.
I’m so pleased that you found interesting Lee. The trouble is these specialist videos seem to grow and grow in length. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, thank you for another very interesting video.
I think that the point motor is becoming very sophisticated. The old Peco point motor is now a Dodo.
I took the decision and am swapping over to the DCC Concepts IP Digital motors. It appears to be very similar to the Smail.
I really like the idea of a seperate powerbus for the points, it is something I will have to investigate - oh well, more crawling around, and more cables.
Cheers, and stay safe, Michael
You could choose to wait and see how the new DCC enabled point motors from MTP fair. Regards Charlie.
Charlie makes a very good point below Michael. As I noted in my comment, I’ve installed both Cobalt iP Digital and MTB point motors. I find the MTB motors very versatile and look forward to trying out the new digital versions.
@@bryan_lane thanks, but there is also the cost, and I have already laid out for the IP Digital motor.
@@michaelimpey1407 Yes indeed, I’ve already bought 24 so I’ve got the same issue as you. However, going forward I’ll have a need for quite a few more motors in my planned build and I’m almost certainly going to switch allegiance.
I use Cobalt omegas because they have a lifetime no quibble guarantee. And they are smaller.
Please remember to strip them down and apply grease as per the instructions. Regards Charlie
Charlie if you are using a separate power supply for your pints you can change the point to get rid of the short
Yes I can do that on Chadwick. Regards, Charlie
Perfect timing Charlie! I’m now at the stage when I’ll soon need to pin my colours to the mast on what point control I’m going to use. My prospective layout design (at least the current one 😳) has 27 points on it, so I’ll soon need to decide exactly how I’m going to control them all. This new Smail option has now given me yet another possibility; although I’m not sure if that’s a good thing !! Although my locos are all run on DCC, I was leaning towards analogue control for my points, with a nice pretty control panel (or several) but maybe now I’ll think again. There are just too many decisions to make 😩
My advice, Adrian, is to keep your powder dry until MTB announced their new Digital point Motors. Regards, Charlie
Thanks Charlie….yes the chaps at Digitrains have suggested the same thing to me……I’m in no immediate hurry, so I’ll do that……so many choices ! 😫
Interesting, especially the multi-source controls. On my layout, with thirty some points in the main yard, I get all fuddled when trying to remember which number point to throw as the express is nearing the junction. All my points are powered off a separate power bus, and the Cobalt and MBT motors have little or no draw after moving. To this end, I have moved to Megapoints controls with the driver boards located close to the points, with the single cable from the master panel to the driver boards. I have a mix of Cobalt analogue IP's and MBT MP10's, both of which have SPDT switches integrated, so when the express nears a junction, I Iook at the control panel and push the button for the junction depicted thereon, which throws the point and also changes the indicator light on the board, without using any of the onboard switches. At the junction, one set of onboard switches operates the signal, while a second activates the 25 cm (+/-) approaching from the "backside" along with the frog. If the point is against the loco, the approach is unpowered, so the loco never gets to the unpowered frog, so the hand of God (and the associated 2 meter arm) never gets called on. Throwing the point sends power to the "dead zone" and to the frog, and we continue on our merry way. I have also made a handheld controller based near the second switchyard to control those points. (NOTE: as a British modeller in the U.S., one of the challenges has been learning the lingo. Your videos go a long ways towards figuring out most of the differences; guards vs. conductors, drivers vs. engineers, platelayers vs. MOW trackmen, shunters vs. switch engines, etc.)
Many thanks for such an interesting comment Jack. Good luck with your project, regards, Charlie
Charlie you are a star for bringing this to the attention of your followers and useful stuff like this will surely encourage more viewers to subscribe, You more than deserve your ambition to become the first pensioner to have 100K subscribers. C'mon guys & gals, if you watch Charlies videos give him the reward that he deserves of attaining a landmark figure of subscribed viewers.
Professional videos, always great topical interest, presented by a really nice guy.
That’s extremely kind Mick. It’s comments such as yours to make the whole thing worthwhile. Regards, Charlie
top job m8 as always
Thanks Geoffrey, that’s most kind. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, another very informative video and as I use Tortoise motors, most interesting. One thing I'd like to know is, have you opened one up to see if Circutron have corrected the fault with the contact wipers which tend to break off after a while as McKinley Railway have found out literally hundreds of times!🤞
No HA, I haven’t. However, that does sound tempting. Regards, Charlie
Interesting and food for thought. As others have said can't you feed the motor from a separate power source to get round the 'hand of God' after a short?
Yes Peter, I do realise that the problem can be overcome with a separate power feed. However, it’s become somewhat self-defeating overlooking this reliability issue. Regards, Charlie
I guess all points should be protected by a signal and by using block detection you can use auto braking until the points are changed correctly, then that short will never happen. Basically the signal controls the movement of the points, and releases the loco to proceed only if points are set correctly. Obviously that requires more electronics, e.g. abc capable decoder in loco, point position sensor, block detection and signal tech capable of triggering points, and maybe route tech to switch everything correctly.
I see that you’re getting a hang of this DCC stuff Steve! Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, very interesting video, you explain things so clearly. You've set my mind thinking ....
Are they going to keep making the tortoise points as well as the smail?
I'm from the land of the dinosaurs so have solenoid operated points, obviously they are not realistic but maybe have a use in your fiddle yard down below?
Do any of these point systems provide positive feedback confirming the true position of the track?
Great swift, enjoy watching these ones
Have a great weekend!!
PS, John Mills at doubleboost is perilously close to 100k, maybe you need to do the occasional cooking video like him when Margaret is away🤔🤔😅😅😂
As for a cooking video, I’m rarely allowed in the kitchen! Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway 😅😅😂😂😂
Merry Christmas Charlie and family hope you get some railway stuff see you soon best wishes mate
Kev Beighton Parkway Sheffield
That’s most kind Kev, and the same to you and yours. Best wishes for 2024. Regards, Charlie
Interesting although I’m sure most of us have gone straight to analog points and switch decoders I’ve had both fail in the past but as you keep saying buy cheap buy twice
I assume you have got your Digitrax Gremlin sorted would like to know how you solved it
Looking forward to seeing yourself and the rest of Your West Camel Team on the 30th
Keep up the Great Work which all us Viewers Love
I curious to see when the Horby Magazine are doing an article on their awards looking forward to seeing it
Probably in the Feb edition that’s out in January
Hi Chris, I’m so pleased that you found the video interesting. However, I’m not too sure that I have fixed my Digitrax gremlin, I have a feeling it’s hiding around the corner. See you on the 30th. Regards Charlie
Lets Hope its a Simple fix or Cheap one@@ChadwickModelRailway
Charlie great video very well put across. On another note how are you getting on with the Electrical problems you have. Regards Steve.
Hi Steve, and thanks for your interest in my wiring dilemma.
Over the next few days, I will get back to it, and hopefully I will master the gremlins. Regards, Charlie
cool vid on channel thanks a good vid keep up the cool vid thanks lee
Thanks Lee, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards, Charlie
Great video, well done and well explained 👍✌️💜😊
Cant the SMAIL be operated by a track BUS, or other🤔🤔 (apologies if Im being obtuse or if Ive missed something).
Yes, it is designed to run from the track bus. Regards, Charlie
Quite straight forward, couldn’t be simpler, are you mad Charlie. I’m in meltdown mode 😩
You do exaggerate somewhat Martin! Stay safe, regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway haha thanks 🙏
Very clear video - thanks! My club has a standard that all turnouts are operated by a single push-button. You demonstrated the two push-button method. Are there any CVs that allow the use of a single push-button to toggle the points?
Not that I can see in the paperwork. Regards, Charlie
Great video again love how you explain things. Just idea would you think about doing a video on the new hornby hm dcc 7000 decoders, been hearing some good things about them and would like to see what you think of them
Sorry S364, but that’s a system I don’t own and know nothing about. Regards Charlie
Charlie we use an arduino nano as an accessory decoder can control 12turnouts all for less than a fiver.
I do understand the current prices, however, this was really a comparison between Smail and tortoise. Regards, Charlie
Have you had any of the problems with the contacts inside these point motors that McKinley have had Charlie ?
So with the motor and Digitarx DS74 you are looking at nearly £40 per point to switch each one
Yes Shaun, when you put it like that, it’s a shocker. Regards, Charlie
I'm not sure of your age, Charlie, but if you walk at a smails pace, you may be already a pensioner before you get the 100,000 subers you are after, lol. Anyway, great info and to finish off, a Merry Christmas and a Happy Chuckle Brothers New Year 2024 to you, Sir.
Thanks JayCee, and a Merry Christmas to you too. Stay safe, regards, Charlie
You know the derivative of e to the X is e to the X. Sorry Charlie but you were making my eyes glaze over. I used the higher math in an attempt to impress you. Oh and by the way pi is 3.141592. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
I don’t believe that your eyes glazed over for a moment, Ken. Have a great Christmas, regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, very interesting video, you explain things so clearly. You've set my mind thinking ....
Are they going to keep making the tortoise points as well as the smail?
I'm from the land of the dinosaurs so have solenoid operated points, obviously they are not realistic but maybe have a use in your fiddle yard down below?
Do any of these point systems provide positive feedback confirming the true position of the track?
Great swift, enjoy watching these ones
Have a great weekend!!
An interesting comment David. Yes they can provide positive feedback. However, that results in yet more miles of wiring. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, very good review, potentially one of the sets of 3 terminals could be used to switch power to prevent a loco driving through a point set against it. This would require making a cut one one rail in both tracks that lead to the point, track power is then fed to that isolated rail via the point motor meaning the loco can only proceed when the point is set correctly. It could possibly be wired in to the frog power terminals. Thoughts? all the best
Wow, that suggestion has attacked my grey cells indeed. I shall have to think about that one. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway think of it as a mini isolated section just prior to the point, the loco would stop if the point was set against it unless it had stay alive.
Hi Charlie, excellent information as always.
Can I ask if you have experienced any issues with the tortoise motors that the chaps at McKinley have seen? cheers Paul
Hi Paul, no I have never had a duff tortoise. Regards Charlie.
Very interesting Charlie but oh my word , when did PP3 batteries start to be know as smoke alarm batteries and not calculator batteries (I feel old 😂)
Fair point Darren. I imagine it’s when calculators first had solar panels! Regards, Charlie
If you powered all your Smails off their own DCC bus which never is used on any track sections then the shortcoming goes away.
That’s correct Marcel. However, it would need to be from a separate Power district which doesn’t shut down when the track has a short. Regards, Charlie
Regarding the problem of a short circuit that you describe. I am not a railway modeller so please excuse my ignorance. The problem is caused by the fact that the SMAIL is powered from track power and that will have been turned off because of the short circuit. Why does the SMAIL have to be powered by track power in the first place ?
Hi Bob, it was designed feature to minimise wiring. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway As I say, I am not a railway modeller, but is there anything stopping you powering the SMAIL from an external supply ?
You would need to connect the ground (negative) side of the track power to the ground (negative) side of the external supply to provide a common signal level but that is common practice in the world of electronics, which is where my interest comes in.
Charlie. Thank you for another interesting short.
When we saw the subject, I said to my wife that I assumed that Circuitron will have addressed the issue that has had McKinley make adjustments to dozens (hundreds?) of tortoises.
But you didn't even reference the collapse of the internal fixing. Has it been fixed?
Thanks - and Merry Christmas to you and Margaret
Allie and Jonathan
Many thanks for your comment. I was saving the McKinley issue for a later date. I have heard that they are going to make design changes but not yet. Regards, Charlie
Do these new Smail point motors, still have the same internal plastic arm with phosphor bronze/copper wipers? Just asking, because I recently watched the McKinley Railway video, where the long-term issues they were having with the old Tortoise motors (wipers breaking off) was explained.
I believe they are the same design concept Steve. However, I have seen some information from the manufacturer that they are going to redesign the attachment of the contacts. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Thank you for your great videos.
On the issue of shorts due to frog polarity, can this be overcome with the SMAIL by having a separate power supply (an accessory bus)?
I’ve done this on layout using DCC Concepts IP Digital point motors. Power supply from the NCE throttle is split, one for the track and the other for the accessories (at the moment this is only the point motors).
Yes, I do understand that Damian. However, it was designed initially for more simplistic wiring. Regards, Charlie
Great video again Charlie. I know you've probably covered it in one of your many videos, but what would you suggest as the best material to use as a base board please? I'm looking at dragging the trains out of the loft after about 25 years 😮
Ideally either 9 mm or 12 mm poplar ply. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway thanks Charlie I'll try and pick some up in the coming weeks, then I imagine a lot of cleaning will be needed. Am hoping to visit the exhibition at West Camel, family commitments permitting
Family first Rich.
Regards Charlie
I have conventional trains on FasTrack. Could this work for my setup? I don't need to utilize all of the features outside of slowing down the trains. If not, what alternative exists for that purpose?
I’m unsure, I’m afraid. I know nothing of FasTeack. Regards Charlie.