Making Fake Ivory And Casein Milk Plastics, Glues and Paints
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- čas přidán 6. 10. 2014
- The book I keep talking about is Casein, Its preparation and technical utilisation by Robert Scherer 1907 - a very useful book for exploring the possibilities of casein it can be found here archive.org/details/caseinits... Alternatively -and if you want to support me an update version I wrote is here www.fwgltd.co.uk on the downloads page it is $20 but the support would be appreciated. Materials for your own crafting and experimenting are at www.workingink.co.uk.
- Věda a technologie
You're a great teacher, thanks for taking the time to explain this so simply!
Your videos are all amazing, thank you for sharing the knowledge! The book linked in the description is really terrific , I can't thank you enough for all of this
BreaktoMake glad you liked them mate
Thank you so much for this. I've been playing with making crude plastic and I'm delighted to know how to purify it to get a better and not crumbly product!
This is absolutely amazing!! Thanks for the link too! More of this stuuffff!!!!!!!
Thank you so much for so many great videos . These are really going to be great things to try with my kids as they are getting older & glue & glitter isn't going to cut it anymore. :P
Loved the clear explanation. Thank you very much sir!❤️💫
Glad to see this. All of my early "work" was with books like this. Your work with graphene is what propelled me into the twenty-first century. That being said though, all that was old is new again Too many old gems are overlooked, and we end up reinventing the wheel.
absolutely - that's why it's called re-search - ie look again - too many people forget this lol
@@ThinkingandTinkering :)
Great information, cheers.
cheers mate
excellent vid thank you.
you mention staining it with graphite:
does the stain permeate the whole thing?
is the graphite from pencils?
does the graphite impact on the tensile strength?
Can you reccommend other colourants that would not compromise the strength?
Thanks for any info!
What a fantastic review of these materials, along with simple explanations. As we know, simple does not mean easy, so thank you for taking the time to break it all down.
Your updated book looks extremely useful as well. It's value is quite high and I am dedicated to skilled people receiving respect and fair compensation for their work. But, if it's not selling as much as you'd like, I wonder if you priced it with a "pay what you can", what funds would come your way - it can be a surprisingly lucrative way to sell digital items of value, if you're interested to experiment.
Thank you for this video: I will share the link with people and groups on Facebook: I can see the Steampunk enthusiasts taking these useful and inexpensive materials up for their crafts. :-)
Great video. I'd like to buy your updated version but the link doesn't work. How can I purchase it? thanks
Hi, how long should I leave it with alkali before it dissolves? Do I need to stir it? Thank you
What would happen if you skipped extracting the casein and added the formaldehyde directly to the milk?
You are a terrific man for the people all over the world...Thanks for being the force for ground up rise to the higher will of our capacity. You are the man!
thank you very much lol
I know this is a bit of a golden oldy for you. But this provided just what I needed. As an alkaline I´ll use wood-ash-lye. And I´ll make a paint to seal my paper-mache projects against water.
And I can then truly say it´s all organic, since I use strarch glue without PVA. And I can leave ´m out in the rain, it seems..
Thanks. I´ll be experimenting with that.
For my factory I now just need some cows, corn a source of water and a citrus-tree :)
Thanks for this video!
Any thoughts on how to make the resulting bioplastic white? The Scherer book mentions adding ivory dust or ground bone to the putty. I've tried adding cow bone dust (made with a disc sander) after the ethanol/methanol stage, but either I'm not adding enough dust or something else is going wrong...
Thanks that was really interesting and useful. I've often wondered how to make casein paint.
have a look at the book when we finish uploading it - probably tomorrow - theres 100 pages or so all about casein paints
I'll check back. The Graphene site looks good.
thanks mate - it's Steve's work - he's a bit of a star with this stuff
Robert Murray-Smith Thanks. Downloading it now. archive.org/details/caseinitsprepara00scherich
I have a Finland knife with a milk plastic handle. Looks like ivory!
Thank you the link is to a great book
Hello sir! I've just discovered your awesome videos in a search to learn about making casein guitar picks or plectrums. I wish I'd had you for a high school science teacher! I wonder if you know anything about adding a pearl effect to casein. Much of the vintage material I've seen has a pearlescent effect, with beautiful swirling grain, much like mother-of-toilet-seat celluloid. Or like some shampoos! Do you have any idea how that is done? Ground mica, perhaps? Fish scales? Thanks for any input you may have!
Is it possible to create a plastic product for example a fridge magnet by using casein and sell it? If you would do it what steps would be necessary?
What can I use instead of methanol? That it is not corrosive so you can even 'eat' the plastic?
Do you know if there are any other substances than formaldehyde that can form crosslinks in casein plastic? I don't have anything close to a setup that I could use to work with it safely and i'm curious to try it at home.
Sharon Zohar there are a few, but I don’t know chemistry that well, so I cannot vouch for the quality of the end protect, but there is one glycerol based
Hi Robert.. Great Video.. uhmm. i want to ask if there is a way to speed up the drying process? to cut it down to maybe just minutes... could heating the material work?
i suspect it would bake it as it is a protein - but you could always try and see mate
Would this be a viable method for making protein powder for human consumption?
Why still use formaldehyde if your graphite can make the end product rock solid? Please clarify?
Hello again, Robert. Just a quick question. After it is soaked in formaldehyde and cured/hardened, would the resulting product still dissolve in an alkali?
i don't think so mate
I don't have formaldehyde in stock, but I wonder if chrome alum, that I use as a hardener for gelatin (carbon printing process) might work just as well. I presume even potassium dichromate would harden it, even faster at the exposure to UV light. I know that formaldehyde is the best, because it evaporates and it does not leave any traces in the material as alum chrome might do, but I am anxious to test this and I'm thinking on shortcuts.
One more question.
If I want to make a varnish kind of liquid, I use the method of washing it with acid and alkaline water. If I would want to make cubes or other 3D objects, I would use ethanol or methanol as washing solvent. The result in the first process with water as a solvent is much better than with ethanol. Is that right?
How much of humectant did you add to make those nice sheets? I'm adding about 25gr of white sugar into 500ml of 10% gelatin solution for carbon print process.
My casein is at the moment nicely sedimenting, I'll leave it overnight. It looks very brightly white already after two wash. I'm intending to make one more wash. I go with acid treatment to 5pH and with alcaic treatment to 9pH.
well - they are both polypeptides so it would be worth a try and i can't really see why not - i suspect ammonium ferric chloride would work too - but that's based on gelatin printing too - i don't think there is any difference in the washing process they are just alternatives the difference in lacquer or solid is more to do with the additives and thickness to be honest - I tend to use glycerol as humactant but not for any real reason - I have found glycerol and honey to work well - I tend to change humactant ratio based on how plastic i want it but i do that by guessing to be honest - that is start at 5% by volume and waver around that and see what i think to the samples
Great! Thx, I'll try 5℅
Borut Peterlin
cool - good luck mate
Hi this is fantastic and all these old ways should be looked again. I do remember reading an article many years ago about an American orange juice producer from the 1930's saying that everything he needed in getting the finished product to his customer came from the orange itself. He made all his plastic cartons from the orange peels left over from the juicing. Could you maybe explain this process? thanks
Hey Robert I have hopefully some simple questions about the process,
Is the methanol cleaning or the alkali blend and acid precipitation method better for making purer Casein for use of a plastic?
Does the type of acid you use to first extract the impure casein and precipitate when cleaning change the properties at all?(Which acid is best)
Does air drying it make it just as hard as formaldehyde?
Any acid will do it mate and 'best' is never a good question as there is just no such thing as 'best' - there are just things that are most appropriate to the situation - for example if you wanted to do this at home acetic acid is 'best' but if you want to do it commercially sulphuric acid is 'best' just for cost and waste stream and availability and environmental issues - asking what is 'best' is so fraught because you don't outine the strictures of the problem for what would be good in the circumstances - as it happens only you can work that out through your own experimentation - air drying does make it as hard but doesn't waterproof it.
Very helpful. Thanks
cheers mate
So, do you need to dry your casein before soaking it in the formalin, or get it soaking after the step with the hot water?
once it is dry
after cleaning with methanol I have never been able to get it into a plastic mass !!! its so frustrating. it ends up instantly going to a beaker full of mush. there is no way to pull it back together. I would like to see someone do this in real time. its a freaking nightmare.
I started off just with the casein and an acidic fermentation and I got my best results then, it was plasticish and see through! but it was too brittle, Im working with glycerine now, and my results went really bad, mushy, doesnt dry... takes ages between experiments to get my results because its taking longer and longer to dry, not sure what to do. RMS showed a mix with the fibres under pressure and heat in a metal mould and hes got really good results, but I'm not sure how Im going to get access to the metal moulds it would require without it all busting up and breaking under the pressure, so Im looking for a method without the pressure, but I dont want to use anything noxious, so I have to keep going...
Everything worked for me until the last step, the part where you knead the casein in hot water to make it rubbery. When I add hot water, all that happens is that it breaks up and becomes a mixture, like a casein juice. I can’t do anything with the casein because theres nothing to ‘hold’ on to... what’s happening here?
How about kneading it in a trough pan with silicone or Teflon coated gloves over a low heat hot plate?
try it and see
I'm a Jewellery student. I'm wondering how difficult is the faux ivory to work with? Is it similar to polymer clay in elasticity? Or do you let it harden and carve it? How delicate is it, say, if I made a ring out of it would it shatter easily?
Hiya There are actually a whole range of things you can make out of this and it was popularised by Channel for faux jewellery back in the 20s - it is called Galalith - unfortunately it uses formaldehyde and quite high pressures to make really good strong stuff - there are a few companuies still making it - so if you don't feel like making it yourself you can buy it in rods and sheets
Thank you! When i used to drink soya milk lattes using heated-up soya milk, a skin would form on it and it got left on the side of the cup in a scrunched up clump. When it dried it was REALLY hard to get off the cup in the washing up. I always thought that would be a good base for some kind of resin or glue thingy.
I have not been able to precipitate out in large lump mass after purification. It always comes out in a granular form.
It works out because I have a pretty good screen for beer making and I can catch it all like that.
havent tried the methanol yet.
fair enough
I wonder if you can make it into 3d printer filament.
@ 9:30 could you use a coffee cup warmer to keep the solution hot?
+grlnexdoorable it would probably lead to uneven heating - but they aren't that expensive you could always give it a go
I have some questions. What is the material included? What is the usage rate? thank you
on the video mate
What I meant was after heating the water in a microwave could the coffee cup warmer serve to prevent cooling the water?
+grlnexdoorable yes mate i think it probably would
Will this yellow?
This is wonderful. I've been wanting to make handle scales for a knife out of casein but all the instructions I've found on youtube yeilded a terrible product.
I am in the same boat. I have an early 15th century rondel dagger I have been working on and I really want to finish it in faux ivory, so I have been trying to make some that works. This video just, potentially, solved a bunch of my problems.
I have been working with this stuff for a few days and have come up with a decent thin varnish. It appears that it becomes waterproof or at least resistant higher alkaline conditions?
With the sodium hydroxide it turned completely deep red and crystal clear.
Now I need to try some of the glue recipes!
v cool
Robert Murray-Smith Im looking for a real good wood glue recipe using this stuff. Let me know if you ever hear of one. There are many recipes in that old book but none specifically for wood clue that I could find.
Clown Whisper nvm I found one I think yay
How much water are u adding to the the beaker which contains the casein in order achieve the creamy liquid?
+Jo Yun Hsu about 500mL - experiment to find what works for you
+Robert Murray-Smith oh okay thanks
It is practically impossible to do this right with homogenized milk. The breaking of the fat globules, as it seems, makes the fat membranes reorganize in a way that raises the casein fraction of the globules fourfold. This totally messes with the purification step; can't dissolve it in alkali, can't dissolve it in alcohol. I could not make it work this way, had success only with fresh skim milk or powdered skim milk.
Did milk paint of old use some process similar?
yes they do - have a look at the book it is fascinating
Isopropyl alcohol should work instead or methanol or ethanol right? And in the off-chance I can't find that, mouthwash would work too, but slowly?
+Nermket sounds right mate - i would just give it a go and see myself
+Robert Murray-Smith either I mashed it too long or the mouthwash wasn't cutting it.
I'll have to try the methanol or ethanol or just isopropyl alcohol on its own. More than likely, I'll just use ammonia or baking soda
(I would've done that after this failed attempt, but it turns out the baking soda on my shelf was just an empty box haha).
+Nermket it's all experimentation mate - but that's where discoveries are made
So, what's the principle behind purification?
+Donatellangelo what do you think?
Any hypothesis on how it can be done with human milk? At this point I am about to just try dehydrating the milk and mixing the powder with resin since my attempts at extracting the casein are failing. Thank you for responding!!
+Naomi Francis you are looking to sour the milk - souring results in coagulation of the milk solids - these are mostly the proteins and fats. You can just leave it to sour naturally or you can coagulate it with rennet or weak acid like lemon juice. If you can get it to do that you are well on the way to casein recovery
Are there any chemicals than be used in formaldehyde's place that aren't so inherently toxic? I would personally love to experiment with such plastics to find several uses for it;
not that i know of
I see, one experiment I plan on doing with casein plastic is adding a clay or possible calcium carbonate to it, hopefully making a type of porcelain like plastic.
good plan
Hi!,
Thanks for the video, It helped me alot.
but after i shredded the casein into water and add the ammonia, it seems like a milky texture. but how long will it take to dissolve it and so it separates?
and another question:
if i would do all the steps you described. and end up in the same result.. does it dry out completely? cause if i don't do the purification steps i noticed that it will stay soft in the middle and start to mould. now i want to make products out of it with the lathe. and so i need a fairly thick base of the stuff to produce this.. will it dry out in a closed mold completely? like.. also inside.. that it won't mould.
Sorry for my english, not a native.
and thanks again for the great video!
you need to do the purification mate or it will rot. I am not sure how long it takes as i left it overnight - btu a little experimentation on your part will answer the question
Robert Murray-Smith Hi,
When i did the purification with ethanol and i strain it and put it in near boiling water, i can not get it into a clumb. i'm just 25 minutes kind of ''pushing and rubbing'' the particles of casein together but it doesn't form a solid piece...
i always end up with almost the same thing before i purify it.
to help you help me this is what i used in the whole process.. (milkpowder, vinegar,ethanol and near boiling water)
i tried it 3 times now and i just can't seem to get it right.. please help sir!
Edwin Van Capelleveen
i'll run through this again mate and try and see what went wrong for you
Robert Murray-Smith cool, hope to hear from you asap :)
does it smell bad?
casein/silicon nitride/graphene composite:)
go for it and let us know how you get on
Dear Mr. Murray-Smith, I watched the video, read most of the comments and now I have a headache. Do you have a homemade recipe for a headache powder that tastes good, works in seconds, takes less than 2 minutes to make and can also be used to spin into a soft allergy free wool? (Don't tell me to read a book, have a go or experiment because it's fun. I am getting old and running our of time.) Thank you. Gail
Ευχαριστούμε!
Hi Robert I have a question for you. can you still make fake ivory, if you skip all of the other steps of making casein yourself and can you just start making casein from a store bought calcium Caseinate powder? and then carry on from there. Please could you answer this. thanks.
yes you could mate
thanks Robert.
Hello again, Robert. i have an other question for you. so if i do get the calcium Caseinate powder, then what would be the next step to making fake ivory(bio-plastic)?. you see the reason why i'm asking you this is because i want to make a prop sword for my product design A level. please could you answer this as well, thanks
just follow the video mate
If the ammonia dissolves the casein, how would I separate the casein and ammonia? Unless the casein is just like a cream then would I just pour it onto a mold?
Also after adding the ammonia to the casein and water do I stir until it becomes clear or do I stir and then wait a while for it to become clear, and if so how much time do I wait? Thanks.
+MCbrunz do the experiment and find out mate - it is easy and fun and will teach you a lot
+Robert Murray-Smith I actually have tried it multiple times different ways and its not turning out which is why im asking in order to find out why its not
+MCbrunz i don't know mate - this is standard stuff and has been done for years and years - yo must be doing something wrong - i am sorry about that - but that's the way it is
To separate the casein from the ammonia, add acid again. I didn’t use ammonia but baking soda, and to get the casein again I added vinegar and stirred.
I just read an article where they are adding bacteria to waste water from tofu in Indonesia creating a fuel source.Perhaps something similar could be done with milk.
+icelandmoon sounds interesting - are you going to give it a go - if you do let me know how it turns out
I googled milk as biofuel,and it looks like someone in Japan has already done this.Maybe they should look into this in your area.www.nbcnews.com/id/23638979/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/t/got-milk-convert-it-biofuel/
+icelandmoon cheers mate - i will have a look
No problem.I hope in this century,the word waste will cease to have meaning.The hard part will not be in utilizing everything,it will be in convincing governments and corporations that we should rethink the whole idea of "waste".
+icelandmoon good point mate
Things to ponder and experiment with: Does A1 casein improve the milk the final plastic (modern milk being a mixture of A1 and A2 caseins), or is pure A2 casein better for plastic, or is it neutral? If you could isolate the A1 casein, would A1 alone be a better or worse casein?
Dear video dude,
Why are you using milk powder?
Thanks
Nater Tots
+Nate Tilton because everyone can get hold of it and it is cheap
about the same
I have been revisiting this plastic as I have been playing with melamine and phenol and all of those complexities. I have been evolving phenol from salicylic acid through short path distillation and its pretty fidgety to say the least.
I have had mixed results with this casein the last few days. upon redissolving casein in ammonia hydroxide i fine the first time it wants to immediately turn to plastic rapidly if i dont introduce acid to get it back out of solution. I have done this in attempts to purify the stuff but i dont think its the best way. emulsifying and water washing has worked better for me.
At any rate I wanted to ask you if you had trouble in second or third dissolving in ammonia? it gets much more difficult to work with after the first cleaning.
when i have used the methanol method ithe cacein lump seems to go to a very creamy solution. I dont get the stringy mass weather I keep it hot or cold. This is all good for drying it for storage but not good for trying to really clean it. it becomes hard to work with.,
i have been reading the book but i think that I need to buy your book!!!
Have you noticed any of this?
+Clown Whisper no mate - it redissolves easily for me
I honestly don't know what I am doing wrong because if I we dissolve in an alkaline solution and then bring it back out of solution to clean it it will never go back into solution for me again no matter how many times or how long I stay or what the pH is it always stays white particulate
This is a complicated process I don't know what I'm doing wrong if I take it in and out of solution twice it won't go back into solution ever no matter how alkali I make it or no matter how vigorously I stir it if I apply heat nothing it always stays a white particulate
Robert Murray-Smith if I initially make the case and pull it out of the milk solution into a big glob and then immediately we dissolve it in alkali solution it will turn make the most beautiful thin strong plastic sheets but it isn't as clean as I would like it. If I clean it the whole process of turning it into plastic doesn't work for me does your book go into this maybe I should just buy it I have an absolutely wonderful use for this
+Clown Whisper Mate - without actually being there - there is little i can say to help - i don't know what you are doing wrong either
Robert Murray-Smith I know mate I just thought perhaps you might say to yourself oh yeah I know what he's doing wrong I took a chance but thank you for your reply I appreciate it I have actually been doing a couple of steps today that seem to go more in the lines of what you have shown on this video so perhaps I raise the heat to high at one point or some weird thing like that or had too much acid perhaps who knows
.
At any rate it's working more to my liking now and even when you don't have anything to say you're telling me something you're telling me that what I'm saying should be working so I keep going and I solved the problem so thank you very much
Another great video and well explained...if you have not seen it - check out a book called "Fortunes in Formulas" - a great book with "old school" formulas for a lot of useful stuff.......this video reminded me of it........
A tip for anyone using sodium Hydroxide. Use very very small amounts! stir it for a long long time and it turns clear using very little of the stuff.
I did mine using a stir plate.
Im lazy
Update, I did a double batch of this in a great big 1000ml conical flask. It was spinning away after I added what I figured was enough caustic soda. I left the room for a while and came back to find that the whole mess turned into a solid mass of jelly foam. lol..
I think what happened is that I did not have enough alkaline in it and the stir bar was introducing bubbles causing nucleation points. . The real weird part is that the foam / jelly looked like tiny beads sort of like tapioca
I added water and more soda and it seems fine. although now its the color of beer and foggy. It doesn't seem to want to go very clear
Fun stuff
lol - absolutely
Ah, you're the super-capacitor guy.
This process seems simple for cow's milk. How can I duplicate this process for Human milk? attempting to make a piece of jewelry out of my own milk to cherish this experience with my son and my milk and the cow's milk seem to react entirely different to this process. Help!
+Naomi Francis I am afraid i have never tried it - so i don't really know
Your problem is going to be that breastmilk is 60-80% whey, not casein, whereas cow's milk is about 80% casein. They are definitely not going to act the same. IDK the answer, but I know that is your problem with trying to use this process to turn breastmilk into a plastic.
Plead Mercy I wonder if she could just use more human milk then. There would be more waste of course, but in theory, using twice as much human milk would get her a similar amount of casein plastic as using cows milk.
Hi Naomi, I'm trying to do the same .... does it work for you?
sir I do what you say nothing happened
+Hamza Mohamed I am sorry mate - but you did something wrong - i don't really know what it is - but you have to try again until you get it right
Jewelry Hawaii kingdom makes fake ivory like this. Do not buy from them