It's still beyond me that a MICHAEL JACKSON film had no MICHAEL JACKSON music. Like... When you saw that you received zero clearance to use any of his music that didn't make you think "Hmm, you know maybe this movie really doesn't need to be made."?? HUH?!
same thing with the David Bowie biopic they were making recently! from what I understand, not only did they not get any rights to his music, but his family didn't want them to make it! Like what 😂😭
When you said hovering blanket over a balcony I was like “what’s wrong with hovering a blanket over a balcony?” Then remembered the baby name is Blanket 😳
Every time Kennie said, “They don’t believe in Neverland!” I laughed so hard. I am also 27 and I am also conflicted. Whether Michael’s behavior was sexual in nature or not, I do think his behavior was extremely inappropriate.
@@Lida974 thank you !! To this day there is no evidence that Michael ever hurt a child. Why is that?? The FBI has like a 95% conviction rate. If they had a strong case they would of been able to convict him
.....wasn't sexual at all, he was harmed as a kid and wanted to give kids a childhood and gifts he didn't have. Plus he didn't sleep with kids on the bed...he slept ON THE FLOOR.
To be fair Michael Jackson was taunted by the media since he was a teenager and he was attacked to a degree no other artists ever was so it makes sense that he was socially awkward during interviews when he knew ppl would rip him apart for even not shaving sometimes like you can tell he was anxious and uncomfortable which is understandable
The only Jackson related biopic that I enjoyed as a kid was the one that always showed on Vh1 & I think it was called “the Jacksons: an American Dream” with Angela Basset as Katherine . The actor who played Michael did such an amazing job (also died so young :( )
For me, the first time I watched the movie, I was CRYING LAUGHING at his reaction to 9/11. Obviously not laughing at the event, but Flex's acting and overdramatic reaction had me howling😭
I also burst out into full laughter at the 9/11 part, and I will gladly meet you in hell. That event was not funny, but the way this movie cut to it was hilarious. Why was that editing so bad.... I just.... I can't even comprehend the editor's decisions leading to that choice.
Michael Jackson: “I wanna remember this forever! What’s the date?” Security dude: “-September 11th 2001” I do NOT REMEMBER THIS SCENE I can literally only recall him up in that tree and him at that pool 😭
I have a thought about MJ that I think can put his personality in perspective, so just stick with me here: I was SA/graped and also prescribed narcotics. That led to a decade of addiction. Since I got clean 4 yrs ago, I’ve felt I’m a bit younger than I actually am because I didn’t experience that part of my life. I still somewhat feel like I’m in my early/mid 20’s. In reality I actually just turned 33. My trauma and addiction put me in a different place mentally. I’m an intelligent person, but I’m trying to experience the life I missed when I was younger. It’s honestly impossible to control. My mind thinks I’m just now experiencing what would have been the next part of my life if I didn’t become an addict. This is a common phenomenon in the mental health community. So basically what I’m saying, trauma and loss of youth can have a profound effect on you. I honestly think that’s what happened to him.
Yeah although it doesn’t make it right. Luckily he didn’t actually do SA or anything like that he just slept next to kids which he clearly need therapy for. Although a lot of people don’t care about mental health whatsoever.
I'm very sorry that happened to you. It sounds like hell. But we know some people (typically men) can be SA'd as kids and grow up to abuse others. Being obsessed over lost childhood (making a Neverland Ranch, having cardboard cutouts of baby models in his room, letting kids sleep in his bed) + being friends with child stars as an a adult & having unsupervised phone convos with them + drugs + money all stand out as super red flags that he abused those kids. At the VERY least, he was extremely inappropriate/creepy and someone should've stepped in before it got to that point, be it his family, the kids' families, or the authorities. Obvious trigger warnings here. But inviting a child to sleep in your bed (as an adult, an adult MAN, who may or may not have been high) is extremely triggering for us survivors and a major red flag. If he wasn't MJ, I think we would view his red flags very differently.
100% trauma and abuse can stunt a person mentally. Even if it's just their response to stress ect. I think Michael was very hurt and stuck in a lot of ways.
@@jeffisjeff5511 why do you need therapy for SLEEPING??? Makes no sense. Esp when the person in question SLEEPS ON THE FLOOR most of the time and has sleeping problems, mostly walking around his property in the night writing music. You people forget about how MJ was working CONSTANTLY and he had a night working habit as well. It wasn't like he needed kids to sleep. He did need company. He had at least one beother or one bodyguard with him ALL THE TIME since he was a young kid. You all pretend as if his life was anything like any other person's. It wasn't. He needed therapy to deal with naivity and believing in the goodness of people. But that's all he had left, after he lost his childhood, his privacy, his chance for a normal family life he so desparately wanted, having friends (instead of worshippers a business associates and leeches). Wouldn't YOU have desires for normal and honest relationships in such circumstances? Could you say no to a kid, who begs you to let him/her sleep in your room, if that was the only reality you can have?
I feel when it comes to the allegations my opinion is: we will never truly know what happened, the only people who truly know are MJ and the kids. But it’s weird that he hung out and had slumber parties with kids. Yes he had a horrible childhood, does that make his actions any less weird? No, not really.
True. I think it may have been age regression? Nowadays, we're used to seeing it in women and a few men, but he was a big star and he was a grown man. The way handling children has a different reaction depending on your sex also makes it difficult. I hope he didn't do anything, people have debunked the accusers, but I really think no one told him off for doing it till then.
Yeah, lots of people are regressed because of abuse. They don't all sleep in the same bed as a child they aren't related to. Even as a child, hearing that on the news made me very uncomfortable. I can not listen to his music without feeling that same discomfort.
eva krajenbrink Yes we can know what happened , this case has tons of evidence available. There is no question he was innocent when you look at all available evidence. The most horrific character assassination of all time. When you dig into the case you are shocked how could all this happened, how could the media be so evil, how could those leech families be so evil.
@@samanthanorton4538 MJ grew up sleeping in a bed with others and saw nothing sexual about it. Besides he was not accused of sleeping in a bed. He was accused of specific sex acts with male bodies he had ZERO interest in, not the least because he was not attracted to males. He shared a bed with boys like he shared a bed with Marlon Jackson growing up. No difference.
@@samanthanorton4538 His music is more evidence of his innocence, if only you actually paid attention. Check this out: "Michael Jackson, Lost Children and the Real Story"
This movie made me realize just how much the media mistreated Michael Jackson. This movie was made in order to disrespect, humiliate, and dehumanize him.
And I don’t like how Kennie said MJ was weird. Just because someone is shy and probably socially anxious doesn’t make them weird. He seemed very intelligent when he spoke and he never seemed “weird” to me. He always just looked like a person who was traumatized from a long time and never got help.
@@iammar1159 maybe it was because he would have sleep over with younger kids... I think that's because of his childhood that that happened. I don't know if anything sexual happened though.
@@disturbingbliss1973 Yeah I completely understand that part. I was just specifically speaking about him being perceived as weird because of his shyness.
I’ve only known this movie via black Twitter and the clown wry about Flex Alexander’s audacity of even playing in this movie. So thank you for the needed laugh and bringing my needed context of the movie full circle
i have been a michael jackson fan for 11 years. i am not conflicted on how i feel about him. the main thing i feel towards mj is sadness. initially, my knee jerk response was to believe the victims. who’s response wouldn’t be that? but when i read the court files, and studied the case myself, i realized the media completely ALIENIZED the whole situation. in a truly disgusting and terrible way. they coincidentally left out RECORDINGS of one of the parents admitting to trying to ruin this man’s life because of the relationship Michael had with his ex wife. the media FAILED to mention how in the first cases, Jackson was trying to push to go to criminal court 4 TIMES, but the family refused to cooperate and demanded a settlement of 20 million dollars instead. the media FAILED to mention that these “sleepovers” were held with other adults in the room. the media FAILED to mention how Michael Jackson was under surveillance by the FBI for 10 years and there was nothing. the media FAILED to mention the blatant inconsistencies within the case. i just ask everyone to please do their research before jumping on this man. i just feel sorry for him.
As someone who lives outside the US and never thought of looking for the court files, I'm glad I found many comments like yours. I always had the feeling he was innocent, so thank you for this information and I will look those files up. I'm very sad his legacy was tainted by all this. I'm 40 and loved his music so much growing up. He was an amazing artist.
Not trying to argue, just a healthy debate. What’s your theory on why two perfectly successful men would ruin their reputation and make up extremely graphic stories about child SA? As much as the facts are debated, the painful testimony from multiple men, with everything to lose and seemingly nothing to gain was what convicted me. Would love to hear a counter opinion!
@@xhanurax Jussie Smollett faked a homophobic & racially charged assault at the peak of his fame. The sad thing is that the world runs on 'clout' nowadays.
@@xhanurax I recommend watching the leaving neverland doc review by aba & preach. I lost all confidence in the legitimacy of the accusations afterward.
PLEASE make a looped video with you saying "they don't believe in neverland!!" because the way you kept saying it was some of the funniest shit I've ever heard🤣😂😂😂
Can we take a moment to clarify that Michael Jackson was still ALIVE when this movie premiered. This man was ALIVE and RICH and said let’s have a 6’3 man play as 5’9 King Of Pop. And made no changes…Just Sayin!
Michael owned the rights to his music, so if he had anything to do with it, they definitely would’ve been able to use his music in it which they did not.
I’m 19 now, and yeah this is definitely a conflicting, jarring and confusing situation. My relationship to the legacy and music of MJ is kinda complicated but not too different from many of my friends or people I’ve talked to at length about this topic. I grew up on MJ, my parents loved him and his music. Honestly, I didn’t watch interviews of his when I was younger (I didn’t care ig?) and so I only knew him as this mega star with immense talent and a tragic upbringing. When he died, it was weird for me because I was still too young to really connect his face to the voice I would hear on the radio or in cassette tapes, but I still was sad ig. My sisters and I went through a phase right after his death where we were just OBSESSED with his music and so that was all I can remember of that time. We had dvds of his music videos, we cut out newspaper clips to read and just study bc we were so fascinated by how big of a figure in pop culture he was/is. I was too young to know about the allegations so I just had fond memories of his music. Fast forward to now and yeah, I’m really conflicted and confused. There’s just too much information (but also too little?) and a lot of differing accounts of him as a person, so I honestly just decided that I would regard him as someone almost larger than life, but as a very complex individual that I just don’t know. I still love his music and his artistry on that front, but anything else is something I decided I’m going to stay away from for the most part. I’m very much someone who will try and believe victims first and foremost, especially in cases involving children. I don’t usually like to have to separate artists from art bc I feel as though that’s just a cop-out in a way? Idk, I’m still conflicted on that. MJ was definitely very bizarre and an enigma, and that’s why I’m not going to be someone who will say “no, he absolutely didn’t do this.” I’m not going to die on any hill involving him as a person. I respect his legacy as an artist and that’s really all I can do bc I just don’t know anything else, and I’m not going to try and put all of the pieces together to come to some sort of definitive conclusion. It’s a very layered situation, and that’s why I’ll fondly remember him as an artist, and accept that I don’t know anything else and maybe never will. I don’t really listen to his music on a regular basis and I haven’t since early middle school. I just feel really icky about the conversation as a whole because he really is such a controversial figure and the controversy is a big reason as to why people are still obsessed. I respect that we’ll never get the answers that we want, so I just don’t think about it most days. This is probably the most I’ve thought about it in years, and idk how I feel about that. Tbh, I just get sad the more I think about it.
Hey I really think you should watch loving Neverland and the square one documentary I highly highly recommend. It’s very informative and it’s a deep dive into the allegations
I agree that believing victims and everything is important but this is one case where MJ truly is innocent. The FBI tracked that man for ten years and came up with nothing bc there was absolutely nothing and the most recent case was thrown out in court. I highly recommend if you’re interested to look into Lies of LN to really clarify everything. And also we have to stop using the media’s portrayal of a Black man in a powerful position to color our judgment, that’s exactly what they want is for people to think he’s weird, etc. When you look at his childhood to his adulthood, what he did in his life is more understandable and very complex.
I’m 27 and Micheal Jackson was my first crush. I was absolutely in love with the man, like I cried when I was gifted one of his CDs. I was DEVASTATED when the allegations & stories came out, but I somewhat knew and really couldn’t defend it, even as a kid. I remember being a dramatic af breaking his cds in half and throwing them across the room and chilling on him for a few years. After watching this movie and the all the interviews that were coming out and just thought how sad he was. Sad because of all that he was going through but because I have an understanding (at the time) if things were true it’s because he was raised the way he was. Not defending his actions cause yea he was weird af lol but I respected his craft. He made good music, fought for civil rights and cared about the environment. I can still listen to Remember the Time without a care and also crack some dark jokes about the man. It is what it is lol
I'm 22 and I still remember when his passing was televised, my family and I were big fans of Michael Jackson growing up and his music was ALWAYS playing in our house. I think with this whole situation, we'll never know, there is almost like this pause, like a 'To be continued..' which is why a lot of people are conflicted about that case, including I. I'm still conflicted to be honest, but we'll never know what happened. It begins to bring up the whole debate of art vs the artist and whether you can enjoy their artistry after they have passed, I don't have a conclusion really :(
Michael Jackson was something else. My parents got to see him live in South Africa before I was even born. To tell you that my siblings and I were jealous would be an understatement. So my parents took us to watch 'This is it' in theatres as emotional compensation. When he died my 7 year old self (and 24 year old brother) felt betrayed because he was supposed to go on tour. I watched the finding never land documentary, and for a good few year's I was actually very much against Michael Jackson but now that I'm older... I feel so torn because there's more evidence (or the lack thereof) that leans toward his innocence. The media didn't make any of this better. Besides that there is no denying that he had and still has a larger than life presence. My 7 year old nephew says his favourite singers are BTS and Michael Jackson.
I’m 21. The earliest memory I have of Michael Jackson is being 3 years old and having his music introduced to me by my aunt and uncle. That’s one of my core memories. I have always enjoyed his music, but always saw him as this entity that wasn’t really human. I didn’t understand the allegations as a kid (or the thing with Blanket), but once I got older it did feel jarring to connect him with the man that I’ve heard all these cool stories about from my family. I agree that he was misunderstood and was preyed on. However, there are some instances or behaviors that I can’t wrap my head around.
@@alexispiper1270 The media made sure the public had no clue about how fucked up those families really were. The more you learn about them the more disgusting they look. Nice guys are the easiest targets and MJ was too nice for his own good
I think the issue with Leaving Neverland was the lack of research and verification of the timeline as well as the skipping over some glaring coincidences. One of the guys is saying that the abuse occurred in a location in Neverland that wasn't even built at the time he says that the abuse occurred, one of the guys father's was literally recorded on the phone saying he would extort Michael for money, & then the third guy who denied it but changed his story later coincidentally changed his story around the same time that he wasn't chosen to be included as a choreographer on a Michael Jackson project for cirque du soleil.🤔
The guy in the recording wasn’t the father of one of the two men in the documentary. He was the father of one of the kids that Michael went to trial for and he ended up committing suicide years later in 2009. Wade Robison who was in the documentary father also committed suicide, in 2002.
I'm 23, so young but still old enough to remember Michael in my childhood and remember where I was when I found out he passed away. Up until like Spring 2020, I would only casually listen to his music, but didn't really care about him much. My mom has always been of the opinion that he is fully innocent, but she's not the kind of person that is a big fan of anyone, so despite knowing that is how she felt, and sometimes her putting on his music, he wasn't a big influence in my life growing up. Likely the one time he was, was the day he died. So, when Spring 2020 came, I saw in my recommended page a video about Michael and the allegations, and I went "Fuck it", and watched it. And then I spent almost a whole month watching and reading about the allegations, and everything pertaining to Michael. I was very much so in the rabbit hole, like you wouldn't be able to dig me out even if you tried. And after watching everything, and doing lots of reading, I came to the conclusion that yes, he is a strange man, and yes, he could have handled everything in a different way, maybe also just be a much more responsible adult, but that ultimately, he did not do anything he was accused off. The most I would say is sleeping in the same bed as the kids was inappropriate, but even that argument isn't factual, as he often did not actually sleep in the same bed as the kids, and their parents were always welcomed to stay, if they wanted to. I'm still mostly just a casual listener of his music, at the time when I was doing the research, I did pay far more attention to his music, but after a few weeks, I went right back to just being a casual listener. I think for me, despite only sometimes listening to his music, the reason why I do support him and defend him, is simply because I hate when people are accused of such awful things, because it only makes it harder for victims to be taken seriously, which will make it easier or a real abuser to get away with such a thing. Sexual assault is something no one should ever lie about, and most cases are not lies, but those few that are, makes the lives of sexual assault victims 10x harder, and this is something some of my friends who have been SA victims say. And so, because of this, because ultimately my goal is to protect victims and help them be heard, that is why I am so adamant about defending him whenever I need to. Of course, I don't often go around like Twitter and spew all of this to people. All the research materials are there and available, yes not all of us have a whole month to do said research like how I did, but if everyone did spare a few hours out of their day for like a week or so, I think most of us would walk away with the opinion that yeah, he's innocent. Even when watching Finding Neverland, yes, it is a very emotionally charged documentary, but when you move away from the emotions, and just look at the "facts" being presented, you begin to see that the picture being painted by the tears, does not add up. Instead of forming a Picasso, it just looks more like smeared paint on a canvas with burnt out holes all over the place. So much presented, was easily disproved by just a simple Google search. Yes, a lot of sexual assault cases are hard to prove because things like dates are not that easy to remember, but when the entire story just feels like a badly put together puzzle, then it's time to move away from the puzzle, and figure out for yourself if the pieces given, even belong to the puzzle you are trying to solve. Anyways, my point with this comment is that I've never been a huge fan. I think he is the performer of all generations, but that's something most people believe, even if they don't want to admit it. He was a larger-than-life man, and no one will ever amount to the fame he had, and as you said, no one should because its frankly very damaging. Michael had a lot of clear issues due to this fame and his upbringing, part of me feels like some supervised age regression could have worked wonders for his mental health, but we will never know. I defend him because that to me feels right, and so far, in my short 23 years of living, what feels right to me, has proven to be the right course of action & the right decision, so if the research, my logic, and my gut tells me this is the hill I should die on, then it's the hill I will not die on, but will firmly stand on until proven otherwise, because despite defending him, if anyone can show me undeniable evidence that he did in fact molest a bunch of kids, I will not hesitate to drop his shit. I've kicked people out of my life for less, I'm not about to support a man that isn't even alive if he truly was that bad of a person. Anyways, I will shut up now lol
worst part is this actually got released while Michael was still alive 😭 edit: just watched the whole video and just wanna say there is proof that the men accusing him are liars i recommend lies of leaving neverland if you are interested
We learned a lot of information about Michael Jackson during the 2005 trial, which our group covered for a journalism project in college. Mind you, most of us really didn't care all that much about Jackson until we started to see the difference between the media's coverage of him and what actually was revealed during the 2005 trial. We had access to the official courtroom transcripts. He was apparently very intelligent and there was a massive amount of books entered into the record because they were found at Neverland. IMO, It seems he didn't want to fall into the hateful side of "adulthood", but that doesn't mean he was stupid or unintelligent. As for the allegations, it's a mess. You sort of made the argument that we don't know what would've happened until MeToo. But that's not true. People really need to do a deep dive into the courtroom transcripts and get a sense of what the media coverage of that trial was like. The Jackson case in 2005 was massive. Regular news were breaking into regular programming periodically to give updates. 24H news talked about it for hours on end. All of CourtTV was the Jackson trial. What we learned is the prosecution probably should have never brought that case to begin with. They had a grand jury that failed to bring an indictment against Jackson. So they filed the case themselves. Similarly in 1993, they had 2 grand juries in different locations which also refused to hand down an indictment against Jackson. We found that out later. There was no c.p. found anywhere at Neverland or any other living quarters visited by Jackson. Nothing on the computers. They had the FBI do an investigation too, which turned up nothing. But getting back to 2005, the 2005 accuser said the allegations happened during one set period of time. Then, the media found out Jackson was in Florida during some of that time period. So, once the trial started, the alleged dates of abuse were changed by either the prosecution or the accuser. That's why people were confused as to why Jackson would allegedly START a/b/u sing the accuser after the Bashir doc. A total mess. They (prosecutors) put ppl on the stand in 2005 to say they saw abuse, but the defense actually called the now grown men to the stand who said nothing ever happened. Not only that, the kids (now adults) told these very same prosecutors that Jackson never touched them when they were still children. We found out those people put on the stand by the prosecution had sued Jackson for wrongful termination and lost, and some had to file for bankruptcy because they had to pay Jackson, who had countersued. Some were paid by media outlets for stories. We also found out there wasn't just boys at Neverland. That Neverland was a place where some businesses would hold retreats and conferences. That Neverland was more akin to a resort than a "house". That Jackson spent a lot of time away from Neverland while everyone would come and go as they please. That there was a whole fire station and administration building, staffed by full time fire-fighters located there. That security cameras were everywhere. His now grown niece did an interview recently where she said cameras were in the trees all over the property as well as inside. The 1993 accuser, where this all started, refused to cooperate with the 2005 prosecution. Through the media, we heard a confirmed, recorded phone convo between the 1993 accuser's father and his step father in which the guy's on tape saying "Everything's going according to a certain plan that it's just mine". It was a jarring experience and one I remember after all this time. As for Leaving Neverland, that reminded me of researching the 2005 trial so I paid attention. The allegations were beyond questionable. I think I've never seen a situation come as close to proving a negative as this. Like, the building - the very structure one of these ppl claimed multiple SAs took place - didn't exist until later. The building didn't exist at the time he claimed he was laying up in it getting SA'ed by Jackson. 🤦🏾♀ A mess. The 2nd guy in Leaving Neverland (the one who changed his story after testifying for Jackson at trial) had similar testimony against Jackson's estate in a civil case thrown out of court. The Judge found his testimony not to be credible. He (that accuser) was found to be researching the details of other allegations and emailing the information to himself, which made it look like he was trying to get his story right. And there's so much more. Did I mention that at least 2 of these prosecutors in the 2005 trial were also the ones in charge of the 1993 allegation? There was talk of "unfinished business" and "prosecutorial misconduct" at this time. I give a lot of leeway to Jackson because he actually went to court, unlike some of these other ppl. This isn't just an allegation. His entire life was put on trial in public and he was found not guilty by a jury with no Black people on it, in a very very conservative county where Neverland is located. (There was 1 Black Alternate juror, but he/she never made it on the jury). I'm confident enough to say it looks like dude got railroaded and we fell for it. Once your life gets put on trial, either the information is there or it's not. The prosecution was allowed broad leeway to try the case too. The Judge let just about everything in; prior unproven allegations and all. And nothing. The cross-examination of some of these people was extremely eye-opening and very little of it was actually reported by the media. So people were presented with a different narrative than what was actually happening in court. It was a whole mess. 🤦🏾♀
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really wish people would just look at the evidence from the courts themselves instead of believing the twisted truth the media gave them.
Thank you for this. This should be read by everyone, especially those who believe that MJ is guilty. The truth is always there, you just have to look for it sincerely. If you are not angry, I will copy and share this for every hot head who believes in the lies from the tabloids.
Even though I’m 16, I definitely feel the way you do about michael! Maybe its because he was my parents childhood star when they grew up in the 80’s, so I was raised on his music as a kid (recalling all those videos of my 5 year old self failing to moonwalk), but I’m so absolutely torn on how to feel about this guy. It’s ridiculous. I’m really glad you brought this up because I’ve been going through the exact same internal conflict, getting back into his music this last few months. And the thing is he really is a one-time phenomenon, so you don’t feel like you have any other situation to compare him to. That makes it that much harder
I still don’t know how Flex saw his makeup and that wig and said this works. Also those random dance scenes, terrible just terrible. As someone who old enough to remember how big MJ was in the 90s, (I’m a late 80s baby) you are correct we will never see a person at that big ever again. Which is probably good because the media tormented him so badly. And what’s even worse he didn’t have too many people he could trust in his personal life. I hope Michael never knew this movie existed.
I remember when Michael jackson died. I was like 8. When my mom told me my lil dumbass gonna ask "The white one or the black one" 🤦🏽♀️ I had spent my whole life thinking there were two different michael Jackson's.
I'll be 32 this year, and "complicated" is a good descriptor for how I feel about Michael Jackson; my feelings usually swing widely between "maybe he did" to "probably he did" to "hopefully he didn't, for everyone involved"~ I'm dealing with similar feelings for another artist that I'm a fan of, and "complicated" sums everything up pretty well, when it comes to my feelings, I think...
Well if you feel so unsure about his innocence then pls do research on this case there’s plenty of documentaries and videos that explain that he’s innocent while giving actual facts like square one or the lies of leaving neverland
@@bradwhatareyagonnado8259 as someone was talking to a friend about safeguarding, he crossed boundaries many times e.g. the sleepovers or even putting his arm around the kids. it's technically boundary crossing.
@@WithADashOfPazazz as long as someone is comfortable with it there’s no boundaries crossed don’t know why y’all tryna twist it in something it want the kids felt like he was there friend and so kids even called him dad which Michael felt bad for and told their parents
Torie Carter Check out this documentary and realize how much the media refuse to report about this case "Square One: New Evidence in Michael Jackson Case | Full Documentary" MJ had absolutely no interest in kids' bodies. None.
I came out of the womb a michael jackson fan. I remember telling my mom when I was 3 that when I grow up I’m going to marry him (that ended pretty quickly because 3 yrs later he passed away). I cried for days when I found out he passed away. My mom also likes to rub it into my face that she when to his concert for free in 1987 in Paris. I had so much michael jackson memorabilia as a child. I used to be so jealous of his children as a 4 yr old. When I say I was a superfan. I was a SUPERFAN. I knew his birthday and birthplace before I could even read.
I'm 30...was in 4th grade for 9/11. Honestly.....I have always felt like he did it. But I completely agree with you. People just don't even consider it as an option. I think older people....like their parents were married at 13 and 22 are the ones that always act like he definitely didn't do it....
"If you laugh I'll meet you in hell." I'll bring the booze, y'all 😭😂 *EDIT:* I'm 24 and the topic of Michael is hard for me. I honestly don't believe he did it, but I can't in good conscience be 100% on it. Ice resigned myself to loving his music and knowing that I most likely will never know the whole truth on the matter
I suggest you watch Razorfist’s Michael Jackson rebuttal and the Square One documentary. It really opened my eyes on how the media manipulated the truth and how things really went down.
I'm 43 and personally I've always remained neutral. I don't know the truth so I can't really say with conviction one way or another. But I've felt bad for the kids involved. They were the victims whether he touched them or not. I can however say I'm super suspect of these parents. I have 4 kids and I wouldn't have let my kids stay with him for love or money. A grown man having sleepover with my kids? Not even if Jesus was pouring me drinks and that's without all the accusations. I feel those parents motives were sus and I don't care if I offend them. Sending your kids off with someone that's been accused multiple times.... yeah that's a no for me.
Exactly! I'm neutral too and the only people I have a bone to pick with are the parents, it's like where was y'all at when your kids (which you took to MJ) were out and about MJ???
Well having sleepover doesn’t mean fckin kids and as you sad the parents were ok with it idk why y’all tryna twist this into something inappropriate when they weren’t even sleeping in one bed
Definitely feel bad for the kids, either they were abused by MJ or their parents. If he didn't do it and the parents convinced them he did something terrible to them, that has to be so traumatic, to be used by your parents. Would take so much therapy to unravel and be okay after that type of betrayal
So my mom is a huge huge huge Michael Jackson stan and so this man and his art were nearly inescapable while I was growing up and I'm so tempted to watch this movie with her and just watch her go off and rant and rave bc when my mom is passionate about something she is passionate passionate and Michael Jackson just so happens to be one subject she's most passionate about
Girl the disdain I have for this movie I can’t even put into words. It literally made me not want to watch another Flex Washington show/ movie again. I get mad every time I think about it 🤣🤣🤣
One thing that always stuck with me about Michael Jackson's popularity was that one of his music videos premiered on network tv during prime time. I had to look it up to verify, and it was the vid "Black or White" which premiered after a Simpsons episode in 1991. In modern terms viewer wise, that's debuting your video during the Superbowl halftime show.
Exactly. He had several music videos that premiered during prime time TV on MTV, VH1, BET, and FOX simultaneously. Black or White also premiered at the same time in 27 other countries. His videos would take over TV like a presidential address.
I think my parents had a recording of it via camcorder with the excuse being they were filming me as a baby and totally not just filming a music video "event" lol.
I’m 19 and I remember how my mom was obsessed with Michael Jackson when I was younger. Even despite the allegations, and the fact that she considered him unnerving and weird, and the fact that she liked him, physically, more when he was in his Thriller days, before all the surgeries, she was a loyal fan of his music till the end. I swear, when he died, she literally told me that she WOKE UP that morning because the radio news said that Michael was dead. I look back at my mom’s loyalty to Michael, a loyalty that was in some ways unintentional. She just adored his music. She loved his voice, his beats, his dancing, etc. She looked no further than his talent as a songwriter and a performer. She said “Michael was a genius, and geniuses tend to be crazy.” In the same way that people like Charles Dickens’s novels despite the fact that he was an abusive monster in real life. A wall is built between beautiful works of art and the controversial person behind them, in order to enjoy consuming/admiring said works of art. My mom chose to continue loving Michael’s music, even though she disliked him as a person. I’m not really sure if Michael Jackson did the things he was accused of. I honestly am as conflicted as you. What I do know is, he was a genius and has gone down in history as the King of Pop. And I think he will always be remembered, first, as a performer, than as a terrible, broken, dysfunctional human being. He is the Dickens of the 20th century - he will be respected for his music alone, but the rest of him (his life, his personality, his actions) would remain too conflicting and too painful to discuss.
He was innocent actually he just needed some therapy because he did sleep next to the kids although he didn’t find it wrong because it wasn’t sexual so yeah much needed therapy…
+despite the allegations"? Those were JUST ALLEGATIONS, you know? What if people accuse you with something? Would you wanted to be treated as a criminal well before you can tell your version? What if nobody believes you, because "we have to believe the accusers, who would lie about such a thing"? When we all know how many horrible things people would do for money.
I just turned 27 in November (Ugh!). I knew how famous MJ was, but I didn't realize how famous Janet was for her music until recently. I was listening to some of her music and I didn't realize how many of her songs I knew from the late-90s, early-2000s. Even her acting. I didn't realize she was acting since she was young until Good Times started airing on one of my tv channels. And I keep forgetting she was in Poetic Justice! I never believed the accusations. I have to side-eye you when you as a parent choose to sue your child's abuser instead of asking for jail time. Even now, one of the children is a grown ass adult upset that MJ didn't let him choreograph his tour before his death. You do make good points about a victim being confused, but the parents' behavior and one of the now-adult victims saying he was still in contact with MJ before he dies, tells me that there most likely was no sexual abuse. If so, the parents are equally at fault and should be jailed!
I was first introduced to MJ when I watch the wizard of oz with his and Diana Ross in it. I had no idea who he was and remember my aunt being like “YOU DONT KNOW WHO MJ IS???” I fell in love with him after the movie. Unfortunately about 1 month later he died. It was all over the news. All I could think as a young girl was “Didn’t I just watch him on tv??” Haha sad times.😅
Thank you for bringing up this topic. Its always felt to me like we like to just ignore what they don't like knowing- especially if it doesn't physically effect us- like how people ignore mass tragedies and loss for the most part(or post a black square in lieu of really feeling things/cis men staying inactive towards femme issues). Also, society is really into making excuses for abusers and attackers, particularly white male ones - partially because patriarchy but also because no one wants to do the work of fixing deeper issues that lead to abuse/being an abuser. It's a hard part of humanity to admit is real when you haven't experienced it first hand (sometimes even then), because we want to think people are mostly good and that we pick out who is evil easily. and really that kind of evil is hard to face as a part of our reality I get it. We have yet to en mass acknowledge this, though MeToo movements help a lot. As a childhood SA survivor however, I wish there had been space for my abuser to seek mental health help, space for him to see and change his anger, his drinking and his ignorance of his subconscious before it led to him acting those intrusions on my 7 year old body. I can see how those steps may have been helped beforehand, and not much that can be done after...except for me, using my healing process to help others understand that it doesn't always take an evil person. we are all capable of good and bad and its about building humans to recognise what they are choosing for themselves as they grow up. These abusive actions are much more common than most want to believe because human inner self awareness isn't even taught in school. Emotional intelligence training is missing from our curriculum, in my opinion. Until we can admit our societal shortcomings as far as emotional intelligence, it will largely remain the same. thanks for listening and creating this space Kennie
Micheal Jackson was one of the first times in my young life when I had to learn to separate the art from the artist. I loved his music and have fond memories of him being one of the only musicians I’d listen to with my grandma, but as you said... That nigga was so weird, and made some terrible life choices, but. Thriller will always be a bop, thoouughhh. 😎
This takes me back to when I and my classmates in primary 5 thought that a white man killed the black MJ and took his pace and for some reason the Americans never noticed, this was among many of our delusions on pop culture.
I like how Kennie called MJ a 'phantom'. I always thought that was a reference to 'Phantom of the Opera', since MJ was interested in playing the role of the Phantom or Erik, but when he talked to ALW about making a musical film with him in it, Andrew said it was still too early to make a film (if I recall correctly, this conversation they had was during the time when the POTO stage musical had just started premiering, so it's still a pretty much new.)
My dad raised me with Michael Jackson's music, I was introduced to him when I was 5 or so and listening to his music now, at 27 makes me incredibly nostalgic and gives me a warm feeling. I thought of him as some sort of treasure, someone who would transcend death to remain a wonder of the world, and so he has, but to me it's a tainted legacy. I always believe all victims, but I can't help that his presence as an artist and his music shaped my childhood. There's also this feeling of not knowing what to believe because everyone is so divided on the subject, so I feel like we will never know, not unless there's video proof or something tangible that tells us this man was a monster. Idk, man, I'm very conflicted, I want to take the victims word for it but what if it isn't true? But what does that make me for not instantly believing a victim? And Michael was evidently so tortured, sure he was weird but there's a reason why he was the way he was, does that mean he was a paedophile? I don't fucking know. Not that I get a say but I can't properly separate the art from the person, so I think of this every single time I listen to his music or watch his movies, and it's a bittersweet thing for me.
Sky Quill How on earth do you know if they were victims and not false accusers if you just blindly believe whatever they say? What exactly do you believe? That MJ risked everything to look at Safechuck's asshole? Seriously.
It's okay to tell conflicted, but I feel like we have another evidence that shows he didn't do anything to those kids. That being said, it's important to do your own research and come to your own conclusion.
from another commenter: We learned a lot of information about Michael Jackson during the 2005 trial, which our group covered for a journalism project in college. Mind you, most of us really didn't care all that much about Jackson until we started to see the difference between the media's coverage of him and what actually was revealed during the 2005 trial. We had access to the official courtroom transcripts. He was apparently very intelligent and there was a massive amount of books entered into the record because they were found at Neverland. IMO, It seems he didn't want to fall into the hateful side of "adulthood", but that doesn't mean he was stupid or unintelligent. As for the allegations, it's a mess. You sort of made the argument that we don't know what would've happened until MeToo. But that's not true. People really need to do a deep dive into the courtroom transcripts and get a sense of what the media coverage of that trial was like. The Jackson case in 2005 was massive. Regular news were breaking into regular programming periodically to give updates. 24H news talked about it for hours on end. All of CourtTV was the Jackson trial. What we learned is the prosecution probably should have never brought that case to begin with. They had a grand jury that failed to bring an indictment against Jackson. So they filed the case themselves. Similarly in 1993, they had 2 grand juries in different locations which also refused to hand down an indictment against Jackson. We found that out later. There was no c.p. found anywhere at Neverland or any other living quarters visited by Jackson. Nothing on the computers. They had the FBI do an investigation too, which turned up nothing. But getting back to 2005, the 2005 accuser said the allegations happened during one set period of time. Then, the media found out Jackson was in Florida during some of that time period. So, once the trial started, the alleged dates of abuse were changed by either the prosecution or the accuser. That's why people were confused as to why Jackson would allegedly START a/b/u sing the accuser after the Bashir doc. A total mess. They (prosecutors) put ppl on the stand in 2005 to say they saw abuse, but the defense actually called the now grown men to the stand who said nothing ever happened. Not only that, the kids (now adults) told these very same prosecutors that Jackson never touched them when they were still children. We found out those people put on the stand by the prosecution had sued Jackson for wrongful termination and lost, and some had to file for bankruptcy because they had to pay Jackson, who had countersued. Some were paid by media outlets for stories. We also found out there wasn't just boys at Neverland. That Neverland was a place where some businesses would hold retreats and conferences. That Neverland was more akin to a resort than a "house". That Jackson spent a lot of time away from Neverland while everyone would come and go as they please. That there was a whole fire station and administration building, staffed by full time fire-fighters located there. That security cameras were everywhere. His now grown niece did an interview recently where she said cameras were in the trees all over the property as well as inside. The 1993 accuser, where this all started, refused to cooperate with the 2005 prosecution. Through the media, we heard a confirmed, recorded phone convo between the 1993 accuser's father and his step father in which the guy's on tape saying "Everything's going according to a certain plan that it's just mine". It was a jarring experience and one I remember after all this time. As for Leaving Neverland, that reminded me of researching the 2005 trial so I paid attention. The allegations were beyond questionable. I think I've never seen a situation come as close to proving a negative as this. Like, the building - the very structure one of these ppl claimed multiple SAs took place - didn't exist until later. The building didn't exist at the time he claimed he was laying up in it getting SA'ed by Jackson. 🤦🏾♀ A mess. The 2nd guy in Leaving Neverland (the one who changed his story after testifying for Jackson at trial) had similar testimony against Jackson's estate in a civil case thrown out of court. The Judge found his testimony not to be credible. He (that accuser) was found to be researching the details of other allegations and emailing the information to himself, which made it look like he was trying to get his story right. And there's so much more. Did I mention that at least 2 of these prosecutors in the 2005 trial were also the ones in charge of the 1993 allegation? There was talk of "unfinished business" and "prosecutorial misconduct" at this time. I give a lot of leeway to Jackson because he actually went to court, unlike some of these other ppl. This isn't just an allegation. His entire life was put on trial in public and he was found not guilty by a jury with no Black people on it, in a very very conservative county where Neverland is located. (There was 1 Black Alternate juror, but he/she never made it on the jury). I'm confident enough to say it looks like dude got railroaded and we fell for it. Once your life gets put on trial, either the information is there or it's not. The prosecution was allowed broad leeway to try the case too. The Judge let just about everything in; prior unproven allegations and all. And nothing. The cross-examination of some of these people was extremely eye-opening and very little of it was actually reported by the media. So people were presented with a different narrative than what was actually happening in court. It was a whole mess. 🤦🏾♀
Love and listen to Michael Jackson because he is proven innocent. The alleged victims defended him when they were children, and now they change stories a hundred times, and were caught lying, all because of financial interests.
I’m as conflicted as you, but I think if he really was a pedo, I would think he would hide it better especially with all his money and therefore power. There’s tons of pedos within the famous Hollywood idols and their higher ups and we’d never know bc they have so much money and the power to control their image so that it never gets leaked. I wouldn’t think he’d be so careless about that if it was true. BUT people are dumb and think they’ll never get caught so they get sloppy with protecting their image. But who really knows? You can do all the research in the world and still feel personally conflicted.
I am 20 years old and I did not really realize how big he was until he died. For context I was 8 when he died. I remember almost every station playing his music or talking about it. When it comes to the cases, i never looked into it. I didn't watch the documentary and do not really care to. I understand the conflict in emotions though
I am the same age definitely grew up with him in the house I don't remember much but vividly come home one day with the news he died I was upset but I was deeply upset I was too young and didn't no much really of him
one just have to make a lil research. MJ was soooo obviously innocent. The accusations were laughable. The prosecution in 2003-2005 was not onl unbased, they knowingly used liars as witnesses. If it wasn't MJ people would have been furious with what happened in that courtroom, MJ was robbed of his rights in that trial. But people wer into this Truman show of real life. Nobody seemed to care it was an actual human being and not a fantasy figure, that cannot hurt.
I had a Michael Jackson doll that I played with my barbies as a kid. It was after Thriller came out. It had the red jacket, glittery glove and everything. 😂
you articulated this so beautifully. this is EXACTLY how i feel about michael jackson and about certain artists whom i love but they did terrible things. it’s possible to love something but also hold actions accountable.
28 years old and yeah, for sure have a complicated relationship with Michael Jackson's influence. As a kid, my brother and I had the DVD of his greatest music videos but when asked if we'd go to Neverland it was a firm "NO." Growing up in a black household surrounded by the culture, we knew the music was fire but that nigga was something else as a person. But ultimately, it should be emphasized that no other person, celebrity or otherwise, should have to go through that kind of life ever again. Loving the green tresses btw, happy new year 😘
i'm 26 and had a similar experience being a fan of michael jackson as a kid. and as a teenager becoming aware of the cases of sexual abuse/inappropriate behaviour around children i was very conflicted and fell into the trap of hoping he was innocent. i still am conflicted but understand that it's so unlikely he did nothing wrong, that he didn't interact with children wrongly. i can't just close off and pretend just because i like his music. i can't listen to his music completely comfortably, but also have that very strong sense of nostalgia (next to his music being good). i just don't actively listen to his music anymore because i feel so conflicted.
The thing is, all you've ever heard about Michael Jackson is how "weird' he was, according the some tabloid stories. This is on purpose. Hundreds of children who visited Neverland and spent time with Michael Jackson have never once said anything inappropriate happened. Hundreds of children compared the the 2 accusations in MJ's lifetime and the 2 men who accused him after his death. That ratio alone should show you that something wasn't right here. I recommend checking out the interviews that Michael's nieces and nephews have done in regards to Neverland and who their uncle really was. Brandi Jackson and Taj Jackson have tirelessly defended their uncle for years. There are also lots of great articles that discuss the hand that the media played in turning both Michael Jackson and the entire Jackson family into a "freakshow" , the demonization and dehumanization of Michael Jackson is one of the most disgusting and horrible things to ever occur in journalism. The HuffPost article "One of the Most Shameful Episodes in Journalistic History" is a great place to start.
@@prinnywinny9013 I did. He owned ALOT of nud• books of boys, and for Michael Jackson who apparently thought he was a little boy and wanted to have underage boys as his actual friends... that's alooot of p•rn found in his home and bedroom! He was fake as he heck and absolutely not innocent.
1. VH1 having its own trigger warning is sending me 2. I randomly remember this movie and how much white/ashy Flex used to haunt me. 3. I'm 30 and grew up loving the Jacksons: the group, Michael solo, Janet, the Jackson 5 movie, everything. My feelings in general toward Michael Jackson are to believe the victims. An adult crossing boundaries (sleeping in bed with you), your name being in the public, your experiences being dissected and debated as if they're theoretical only, is deeply traumatizing. Trauma changes how your brain is wired, coupled on top of the fact that they were young children without fully formed brains in the first place. As an SA survivor and also a domestic violence advocate, how trauma affects you runs deep, especially with any form of crossing a sexual boundary. Children can't consent, even to something like laying in a bed together. I view sexual violence (crossing any sort of sexual boundary) as a violation of your forever home (your body) but you can't leave that home or place where you were traumatized. For his music, I used to feel guilty about listening to it, and still have conflicted feelings. While his music wasn't about his inappropriate acts (like R. Kelly, who I refuse to listen to) the fame and celebrity he made off that music def contributed to his having access to these children/fans/people coming to the ranch. So... conflicted. Definitely listen to it less, and don't go searching for it but also don't skip if it comes on a Pandora playlist
Dominique What exactly do you believe? Why do you call them victims when they have been proven to be liars over and over again? Why don't you believe MJ who also said he was the victim of extortion and false accusations? Now every adult is interested in sex. Not every adult looks at a bed as a place for sex. And the very people who slept there keep saying nothing happened.
Dominique R Kelly was on tape he is proven guilty. There is no proof against Mj. Tell us which of his accusers you believe and which version of their ever changing story you believe and why on earth do you believe MJ would be interested in sex contact with any penis when he was disgusted by male on male sex? BTW his songs are just more evidence of his innocence , if only you listened to them and understood them. Start here: "Michael Jackson, Lost Children and the Real Story" Frankly, you don't have an idea how MJ really was. He wanted to help and save abuse victims not create them
Dominique You can know from the accusers' behavior they were not traumatized by MJ at all and MJ was not interested in kids' bodies! His entire thing about kids was that he wanted to give them what he didn't have: a perfect childhood where everyone loved you, whether they were related or not. He was the exact opposite of what you think he was.
Michael Jackson is proven innocent. He was tortured and an investigation by police and the FBI found nothing. Also, the alleged victims were always asking for money, changing the story a hundred times. Real victims don't do that. So feel free to listen to his music, because he is innocent.
Dominique are you aware that this is nothing but some theories based on thin air? An adult sleeping in the same bed as you isn't traumatizing one bit. I slept as a kid with severla adult in the same bed - and that meant SLEEPING. I feel zero trauma. I loved the adult in question. The kids, who accused MJ were ALL traumatized BY THEIR PARENTS. That's what we know for sure. Jordan Chanlder was used by his father to get close to MJ to get money out of him. The Arvizo mother used her kids to lie for her in testimonies against companies to get money. She even pushed them to acting lessons to be able to lie better under oath. Robson's mother left her sick husband behind to chase fame for her kids. She pushed her kids onto MJ - it was never MJ, who loooked for the Robsons' company as anyone can tell. Same with Safechuck. He desparately chased fame and money. When he had no job, he could work for MJ - even as a young adult (which he lied about later on, because that doesn't fit into his 'traumatic" narrative. He was MJs assistant for years. R Kelly committed crimes - that wasn't inappropriate behavior. As for MJ: the inappropriate behavior is something the media sensationalzed and you believed that SLEEPING is a traumatizing experience. It's BS.
As a big MJ fan who actually spent time reading about his life and watching interviews/documentaries about him, Michael was a very misunderstood and complex person. The tabloids often took whatever Michael said or did and twisted it into something negative. I would encourage people to research for themselves and they would see a lot of inconsistencies in those nasty rumors about him. Read about how the parents were nothing but scammers that used the allegations to try and extort him. Read about how they humiliated him by conducting strip searched and raiding his home, and they couldn’t find ANYTHING to prove any guilt. A documentary I would recommend if you want to know more about this is named Square One.
I wonder if Michael ever got to see this movie since it was released when he was alive… I’m surprised that he didn’t sue VH1 because that movie is just foul.
“I’m not sure much people who are under 20 know how big michael jackson was” oh I can assure you, we know. At least I know. I, like you, was absolutely OBSESSED with the man from ages 2-7, mostly because he was my parents favourite when they were growing up in the 80s, and so I was raised on him too. He died when I was 3, and I have a vivid memory of my uncle breaking the news only for my dumb little ass to go “No!! He’s not dead!! See??? He’s in the TV!!” And then putting on remember the time. Only to be devastated a few years later when I realized that yes, he was indeed dead
I'm 33 and the closest I came to being a Michael Jackson "fan" is liking Free Willy as a little kid. When I was somewhere around middle school I became aware of the allegations against him because of all the inappropriate jokes around him. When I was in high school one of those cases went to trial and I remember a friend's parent talking about it at the dinner table, saying he most likely did it and explaining the victim to abuser cycle that happens with some victims. Years later I saw Leaving Neverland and went from "I think he probably did it" to "I definitely think he did it and it's wild to me that we're not all mostly on the same page about it."
I'm with you. I'm a somewhat later millennial (born in early-mid 90s) and I loved Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5 as a kid and saw the entire media spectacle and accusations play out in real time as a teen. Now as an adult, I'm of the mind that he probably did do something to one of the kids. Jackson and his siblings were abused by their father horrifically. Not an excuse at all, but research shows that those who are abused do often end up becoming abusers themselves due to unaddressed trauma. To me, it all points to something likely happening. But I'm also aware that there were and are likely many who wanted to exploit the controversy for private gain. Seeing as I can't tell who's doing or did what, I've personally decided to just acknowledge that he's a tragic and controversial figure who made music I love and who holds a crucial spot in African-American history as being a true global icon, right up there with the in his own way controversial Jordan. I don't rep him, but I will bop to his music if it plays.
Yeah, I just can't imagine why 2 separate men would go on camera and make an incredibly long, sad accounts of a man they loved as children who thoroughly groomed and sexually abused them...and that to be a lie. Sorry, I can't. Especially when the man is dead and they have nothing to gain realistically by doing so. Leaving Neverland is devastating. I can't imagine someone fabricating these stories in a way that rings so true to how child grooming works and gradually escalates, and I don't doubt their emotional reactions on camera are real. There's people all over this comment section essentially saying they must be lying, because MJ is innocent, but that's one hell of a thing to say if you've seen their accounts. I think it's completely normal and healthy to be conflicted, he's maybe the poster example of a star with a complex legacy.
@@aeddiefarmer they are lying. it’s very easy to make a lie believable if u sprinkle truths in there. wade and james want money. there’s a reason they are constantly going in and out of court trying to sue for large amounts of money. Leaving Neverland is nothing more than a pedophilic fantasy that goes on for 4 hours. there are SO many inconsistencies in that film that have been brought to light. also what emotion was shown? i watched the same film and not an ounce of expression was on their face other than when they were talking about their fathers. anyone who knows even the slightest bit about csa can also create a story that “adds up”.
@@aeddiefarmer even Dan reed stated that it’s just for money also the stories of them doesn’t add up and they keep changing them please watch square one or lies of leaving neverland because those documentaries explain really well that the accusations are based of nothing but lies
@@bradwhatareyagonnado8259 I've noticed the people in the comments who know the court cases inside out and know what the director Dan Reed has said in interviews and on twitter are saying he's innocent. I don't know why people refuse to research all the background information before talking about something serious as SA allegations...
So, I'm 26 and have a major conflict of emotions towards Michael. I LOVED him as a kid, but I never really knew how to react to any of his scandals. Much like the R Kelly situation, it felt like all the allegations were being taken lightly and just being swept under the rug.
Nope. They were taken very seriously. He was photographed nude, under FBI surveillance for over a decade, and had his house searched multiple times. All of that and some more happened and he was still found innocent
@@leatom1333 I know overall they were taken seriously, I meant by the public. You see all these headlines about allegations of misconduct with a minor, and people just made jokes about Jesus juice instead of actually focusing on the issue.
I’m 36 years old, used to have the biggest crush on Michael Jackson when I was younger and definitely believed he was innocent up until I watched Leaving Neverland. I had this idea in my head of money hungry parents coaching their children to lie because I just couldn’t understand how any parent would allow their children to spend intimate time alone with an alleged abuser unless they were trying to win a lawsuit. But watching the documentary as an adult and having the sad understanding that many parents put their children knowingly in dangerous situations and not even for being star struck by a superstar like MJ. There was something so vulnerable and honest in the way the survivors spoke about their relationship with MJ that I could see the reflection of my experience and the experience of so many other survivors in it and it rang true to me. That tug of war between wanting to stand in your truth and wanting to protect your abuser hit to close too home. Whew! I could talk about it all day chile. Thanks for doing this segment!
@@jeffisjeff5511 the truth of the matter is there is no way for us to actually KNOW. you do not know him. you do not know those children. you were not there. you are allowed to feel how you feel about him but you have to leave room for the possibility because anything else is honestly delusion.
@@treasurerox well no one was truly there but based on accounts not on media he was innocent. Believe it or not but with evidence sometimes it can be pretty accurate like that case with the girl with a running app and the detectives got how she reacted correct based on evidence. Isn’t that like so cool?
@@jeffisjeff5511 okay? he was there. the people who accused him were there. sometimes there is no concrete evidence, doesn’t mean it never happened tho. anything else is speculation based on personal feelings.
@@treasurerox no like I said and I’ll say it again they didn’t have proof against him being a SA and therefore he isn’t one. I’ll say this again it’s innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent.
I’d always had a cursory interest in Michaels music from when I was little. I was 8 when the 93 allegations surfaced, and I was too young to understand exactly what was going on. Then the Bashir interview came out and throughout I just kept shaking my head at some of the things I saw Michael doing. Then along came Leaving Neverland and I decided it was high time o did my research. Now I personally believe the allegations just aren’t credible. We will never know for sure. All I will say though is fact checking can certainly help. Btw great review of a dreadful movie !!!
As a younger person who only really knew about Michael Jackson after he died, my only real thoughts as a kid was a lotta confusion because for some reason I spent way too long thinking he was a woman not a man? Not really sure why or how, I thought he was a pretty lady who made interesting music
I am young and only knew about MJ towards the end of his life and tbh for most of my life all I thought about when I thought about him was his court trials and MAYBE one or two of his songs. I didn’t realize how big and influential he was until I got older.
I’m 24. I watched a lot of stuff go down as a kid and when I got older I wanted to read for myself. I read the cases in college because I was studying law and forensics at the time. People have their opinions on whether or not he did it but what remains is that he was raided, and followed my Santa Barbara PD, LA PD, and the FBI. The FBI Followed and investigated him well after the 2005 trial ended (their entire investigation was released in 2013 and online it’s very…VERY long). They also investigated everyone involved in the latest controversy (a lot of info they left out in that doc). Either our criminal justice system played around with this man and those claiming he did something to them than doing their job for years or someone is lying. No way that man gets investigated multiple times, thrown in jail, locked in the bathroom while in jail, all to be found not guilty in all counts including misdemeanors, to have 2 individuals actually come forward 10 years later to say uhhh hey yeah I took the stand and lied (perjury) he did it 😂😂😂😂😂
@@TinV I’m just going to say this…don’t take my word for it, read. Read and read and read some more on these cases. There’s a reason why In the middle of the doc they were trying to Sue MJ’s estate for what it’s worth (billions) all while releasing this doc. Wade Robson was one of the biggest choreographers at one time using Michael’s name testifying in his defense then later saying yeah Michael called me and told me to tell the court he didn’t abuse me. Not only is he admitting to perjury but Michaels job as the person on trial is to sit and be quiet. What Wade is insinuating is something that could have gotten the entire trial thrown out and Michael moonwalking to jail immediately. It’s A LOT they don’t tell because they know the public doesn’t know.
I just turned 25 and I absolutely LOVED Michael Jackson as a child. My mom had a dvd of his number one hits music videos, and I watched it all the time learning his choreography. I was (and still am) a fan of his music, like it honestly makes me happy to listen to. But, I do feel conflicted because I don’t know how to feel about him as a person. The allegations have never sat well with me. Abuse/SA is such a serious, painful, life-altering thing that should NEVER be taken lightly. Michael was severely abused growing up, which explains his strange behaviors. I do remember seeing a clip years ago about him saying he needed help dealing with his pain from his childhood, but it seems like no one took that seriously (I don’t think he was seeking that out for himself either). And if someone had been genuinely looking out for him, I don’t think any of this would have happened
I’m 18 & I definitely was apart of the “he’s innocent” due to me being young and not wanting to see my idol in that type of light. However, at this point I’m with you regarding being conflicted by the entire situation since nothing was ever settled. Also, if there are more documentaries please let me know!
I absolutely get your complicated feelings. I’m 21, and I was 9 when he died. I was also a huge fan of Michael when I was younger. When leaving Neverland came out, I was even more conflicted. There were so many opposing opinions online. I didn’t know how to feel. It absolutely made sense that the victims, at such a young age at that, wouldn’t admit or even be aware of SA by someone they idolized. It also makes sense that they’d want compensation for that and to have their stories told. And that it is just flat out inappropriate to be that close to kids that are no yours. Then there’s another side that, where there’s actual proof of inconsistencies in one of the recent accusers stories. Specifically the train account of abuse, the train wasn’t even built when he knew Michael. And that there’s an actual recording of the first accusers father saying he would extort Michael (although that’s not hard proof that Michael didn’t do it, just shitty parents) and the interviewer who did the Michael interview admitted that he manipulated the interview to make him look weird after he died. all in all, idk how to feel. Especially since he’s passed since this happened, there’s no real way to really get to the truth. I can’t listen to his music anymore……
Okay so I’m 26 and honestly, THIS!!! I haven’t been able to articulate how my feelings aligned in regards to Michael but this hit the nail on the head. I grew up with him too, and definitely had thriller memorized lol
Why do I have a very specific memory of being at a BBQ hosted by my parent's friends in the early 2000's and watching snippets of this on their TV in the finished basement with the other kids who were bored out their minds?
I've actually never pressed on a video faster. I'm about to be 24 and I have deeply complicated feelings about Michael in that way that Kennie articulated. I think because he's gone, I can box the complicated feelings away when I want to enjoy his music or videos but it always comes back
I'm gonna share my MJ fan story just because Kennie did, too. I had a history of listening to MJ with my Mom, my Dad showed me the Thriller music video when I turned 5 (wtf man, I was a kid!?) and scarred me for lyfe! I found out MJ died and since then I couldn't listen to any of his songs without crying hysterically and feeling like I was being chased like in a horror game (idk where it came from, but it was intense. I remember running away from someone listening to Billie Jean because I couldn't take it lmao). We skip a few years ahead, my Mom and I watched Guardians of the Galaxy and I kept rambling about how great the soundtrack was (honestly, it's gold). I ended up memerizing the tracklist by heart as I listened to it on repeat until my Mom told me about how The Jackson 5 actually have more great songs than I Want You Back. We then watched the This Is It dvd we bought for a friend years ago, who already owned that one, so we just ended up keeping it ourselves and never really caring about it until that moment. Fast Forward to 5th grade, my Mom bought THE EXACT SAME DVD SET KENNIE WAS TALKING ABOUT WITH ALL THE VIDEOS (it's so cool! And it's defintely the reason that made me write all of this)! I found a biography called Remember The Time in a book store and read it like the champ I am (pretty good book as far as I remember, it's been a while though). I was absolutely obsessed with MJ's music - and I even was on TV for like a minute, when I was interviewed on MJ's 60th birthday in 2018 in front of a local memorial. Long story short: MJ is a great artists on many levels and his art definitely brings people together - however there are some conversations to be had about how we should always seperate the music from the artist (atleast in my opinion - concerning all of the other drama). Thanks for reading, I wanna hear y'all's stories, as well!
I do have to say that I love how Kennie can simultaneously talk about being an MJ fan while also not immediately rushing to decry all the allegations against him.
I was 11 when he died and I remember like waking up from a nap and they were playing a marathon of his videos on VH1, that's when I found out. afterwards everyone at my school, myself included, had a Michael Jackson obsession phase over his music. but still, I feel like even at 11 the conflicting feelings of how to feel about him were there. it was a weird time.
Latoya was being forced by her abusive husband to say Michael did those things. Her husband used to beat her to get her to say her father touched her as a child, to get nude for playboy, and to write a book about everything he wanted her to say. It’s very sad her story. She has never truly recovered from him.
Wait why did her husband want Latoya to say all these untrue things about her family? Also did she ever come out and say that all the things she said were fake accusations
You had the exact same experience with MJ as I did. I’m 25 and I loved him as a kid but once I got older (around my mid-teens) and I looked back on it with the allegations buzzing around my head, I became uncomfortable. I don’t know how to feel now. In general I avoid all MJ related stuff just because he makes me too uncomfortable. Like a grown man sharing a bed with children is just too weird for me to tolerate
I will say i dont think its just a coincidence that mj attracts children. All children love being around him if you watch videos of him and lisa marie presley on vacation her kids cried over who would do stuff with mj and competed for his attention. You wouldnt be avle to grasp that until you see videos like that for yourself so the idea of kids fighting to stay in his room with him seems unrealistic until you actually see it on video of kids fighting to stay by his side. Kids can sense energy i have never heard of children being attracted to a predator.
one thing abt kennie ... she’ll be able to flawlessly balance comedy and serious conversations , so i’d like to put in my two cents . i’m 18 , n much like so many of us in this comment section , i fell for michael’s music hard n fast at around 8 years old . he was the first musician i was ever attached to just because of how much i admired his music . i was introduced to him by my dad , who also loved michael . what kennie said perfectly represents my own thoughts and feelings about mj now 100% . i myself have flip flopped between “he didn’t do it!” and “i can’t believe he did it.” over the years , but what i’ve been thinking the past few months/year was described rlly well by kennie . we really will never know for sure . although i’m not as attached to michael anymore , i still listen to his music with some layer of haunting doubt . i become really excited and just overall really happy whenever someone talks about him , but i’m aware enough to know that the possibility of his allegations being true is a reality . it’s this really ... unsettling , uneven , conflicting coexistence .
i did not know this movie existed & Kennie as much as i love you i feel it’s only fair i suggest you add 2021 movie “Wolf” to your watch list as retribution for this movie now being ingrained into my brain😂 the movie “Wolf” is about a boy with “species dysmorphia” (i’ve never heard of this so idk if it’s an actual thing) who feels he is a wolf in the body of a human & falls in love with a girl who also has species dysmorphia in this “institution” that will supposedly help people. FUN FACT: the trailer was an ad on Wattpad🙃 it looks to be of good quality & interesting camera work (good or bad, that is for you to decide😂) MISSED YOU KENNIE💚💚
I'm pretty sure it is a real thing and also people who have a living dysmorphia (cant remember what its actually called) are also real where they think they are dead and their body is decaying away and that they are living zombies.
@@kathleenbielecki6814 really ?? that’s actually very interesting, i’ve seen reference to species dysmorphia twice now. Hannibal had an episode where someone had it. i think they had an episode showing an example of the living dysmorphia as well. thanks for letting me know😊
Oh hello, hi, I'm on my umpteenth rewatch of this playlist. When I was 7 (in the year 2000), my teacher got the kids in my class to say their favourite musician when she got to our name during roll call. When it was my turn, I said my favourite musician was Michael Jackson. The entire class burst out laughing, including the teacher. TO THIS DAY I have no idea why they found that so funny. Strangely enough, I have no memory of finding out about 9/11, despite being 8 when it happened. I guess it just hit way bigger in the US than in NZ (where I'm from). Anyway, I'm going to hell with you, Kennie 😂 That cutaway was objectively hilarious. Additionally, I was 15 when MJ died. Despite him having been my favourite musician as a kid, I kind of didn't feel much when I heard. I think I was just not very surprised. But I remember my high school being abuzz with the news the day it broke.
I'm 26 and my parents LOVED MJ, my dad even went to one of his concerts first row. His music was very prevalent in my home. I remember all the news coverage and cases but I didn't understand it because i was a kid myself, but as I grew older I became kind of conflicted when I wanted to enjoy his music. It was the first time I had to deal with the "separate artist from the art" dilemma, normally I would just cut the artist from my life but he was very prevalent in mine it became hard to do so. When the HBO doc came out I remember listening to a podcast and they said that with MJ this kind of thing was different because of how massive he was, like you said, he was bigger than life itself. So we had to separate the man from the star, what he achieved in music and how he changed pop music is more of like a idea (?) than a person. The man was very different from the idea we as a public had created, and as individuals we should figure how to deal with those feelings and opinions ourselves. I personally separate the music from the human when it comes to MJ, I still listen to it when I am nostalgic for my childhood and my dad, but I won't ever discredit victims' claims.
Pleaseeeeeeee roast the absolute fuck out of that Aaliyah movie that nobody wanted in the first place. That would make my year. Please! I mean I love Alexandra Shipp to death but that movie sooooo trash.
I remember there was a far more superior made for tv movie called The Jacksons: An American Dream. Id recommend watching that one. It's not the best. But the man the casted for Michael was great.
I couldn't remember tye name of this movie, but I watched it like a hundred times cuz I had a HUGE crush on Jason Weaver who played the young pre-teen Micheal
No we haven’t dismantled fame. The only difference is regular people with a smart phone, and basically no real talent can be as equally famous as a person who is actually talented and famous for those talents.
I mean, we have definitely been thinking more about fame and parasocial relationships. Probably because fame is more accesible now,;we can't just dehumanize so many people. I do think we are slowly dismantling it...
We haven’t dismantled fame. If anything, it’s only been increased and peoples’ thirst for it has also been increased. Stan culture is so freaking crazy and toxic at this time. I don’t remember it being like this before.
@@iammar1159 I think fame has become more frequent, but less dehumanizing. Probably because through YB and Social Media we've started understanding famous ppl are just humans. As for Stan culture, I think idolizing is still dehumanizing. But I don't think idolizing is as horrible as paparazzis and magazines constantly abusing and harassing without repercussion. This sense of loyalty stans have is toxic, but I don't think it's dangerous. (I'm not defending stan culture. I do think we have progressed tho) And the fact that the word 'parasocial' has become so popular shows that we are having the conversation
I'm 17 and I wasn't aware he was dead when I was younger, so around a year after his death he was my imaginary boyfriend. And I was obsessed with all of his music. I would make my parents do the Just Dance with me and I knew every lyric to every song. Because I didn't understand who he was when he was alive. I ended up not really feeling comfortable with any of his music past like 12-13? As I got older and I learned more about him, it got weirder to hear it. It also kinda messed up my perception of imaginary friends because you know, a guy who had CSA allegations as a toddler's imaginary boyfriend is fucking weird. He's kinda like a myth to me. It's like talking about 9/11. I wasn't there for it and I don't get it, but it's still very weird and very upsetting and a lot of people older than me have harder opinions on it than I do because they experienced it. He was a person who did things, and I wasn't around for it, so I dunno how to feel about it.
I remember seeing bits and pieces of this movie on E! as a kid and always thought that's who made the movie. But now to learn that this was VH1's doing makes so much sense. Also, my first memory of Michael Jackson was watching him dance on the roof of an SUV on CNN. 😂
It's still beyond me that a MICHAEL JACKSON film had no MICHAEL JACKSON music. Like... When you saw that you received zero clearance to use any of his music that didn't make you think "Hmm, you know maybe this movie really doesn't need to be made."?? HUH?!
This is so true and hilarious 😭
Yeah, just like that AWFUL Britney's biopic !
Exactly 😭
Probably something to do with copyright laws and stuff like that.
same thing with the David Bowie biopic they were making recently! from what I understand, not only did they not get any rights to his music, but his family didn't want them to make it! Like what 😂😭
The only memory I have of this movie is when Paris was born and he literally RAN out the delivery room with her 🤣🤣
All I remember was the balcony incident scene. I was 6 years old and I was shook to my core!!
@@wuraolaolagunju that was with Blanket, his last child. Blanket goes by “Bigi” now
OMG - same! XD
@@janeeyx5672 9z
I like your name.
When you said hovering blanket over a balcony I was like “what’s wrong with hovering a blanket over a balcony?” Then remembered the baby name is Blanket 😳
To make it worse, Technically his name is Prince Michael II named after his older brother 😂
Is carpet the name of the baby
Blanket isn't his real name. it's his nickname
Every time Kennie said, “They don’t believe in Neverland!” I laughed so hard.
I am also 27 and I am also conflicted. Whether Michael’s behavior was sexual in nature or not, I do think his behavior was extremely inappropriate.
why do u think so?
His behavior was not inappropriate in any sense. 1000 who were around him, said he had never behaved inappropriately. Why would I believe otherwise.
@@Lida974 thank you !! To this day there is no evidence that Michael ever hurt a child. Why is that?? The FBI has like a 95% conviction rate. If they had a strong case they would of been able to convict him
.....wasn't sexual at all, he was harmed as a kid and wanted to give kids a childhood and gifts he didn't have. Plus he didn't sleep with kids on the bed...he slept ON THE FLOOR.
@@Lyttits but it is very weird still to be sleeping in a bed with other people kids 😭 and im a die hard mj fan but let’s be real
The reoccurring “you don’t believe in neverland” bit was thoroughly amusing
Jenna Cline WTF does that even mean? Sounds like their turned that fucking Hollywood movie into some kind of religion
THAT PART I JUST CRACKED ME TF UP LMAO
@@jfacts2113 MJ created his own Neverland because he didn't wanna grow up (trama from his father)
To be fair Michael Jackson was taunted by the media since he was a teenager and he was attacked to a degree no other artists ever was so it makes sense that he was socially awkward during interviews when he knew ppl would rip him apart for even not shaving sometimes like you can tell he was anxious and uncomfortable which is understandable
Yeah, I really don't like the way she rips into him like that as this uncanny weirdo when he's been through a lot.
@@mechajay3358 uncanny weirdo see MJ as uncanny weirdo. He was like a mirror: the good see good the evil see evil
The only Jackson related biopic that I enjoyed as a kid was the one that always showed on Vh1 & I think it was called “the Jacksons: an American Dream” with Angela Basset as Katherine . The actor who played Michael did such an amazing job (also died so young :( )
Omg Yes I Love That Movie !! I Still Have It 😂
That movie was like five hours long!
@@poke8735 And worth every hour of watching. Such a good movie.
It’s one of my favs too
I liked that movie a lot!
OMG. I SLIDE DOWN FROM MY CHAIR LAUGHING MY ASS OFF. WHEN KENNIE WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN MICHAEL JACKSON FIRED HIS MANAGER WHILE HE WAS UP IN A TREE
For me, the first time I watched the movie, I was CRYING LAUGHING at his reaction to 9/11. Obviously not laughing at the event, but Flex's acting and overdramatic reaction had me howling😭
I also burst out into full laughter at the 9/11 part, and I will gladly meet you in hell. That event was not funny, but the way this movie cut to it was hilarious. Why was that editing so bad.... I just.... I can't even comprehend the editor's decisions leading to that choice.
I’ll bring snacks for our trip down
WAIT THAT CLIP WAS IN THE MOVIE I THOUGHT SHE JUST CUT TO IT FOR DARKLY COMEDIC EFFECT I'M CRYING
the editing omg,,,i'll meet y'all in hell istg-
there's no other place for us
I think we all laughed 🤣😂🤪
@@reiy8401 same OMFG 👁️👄👁️
Michael Jackson: “I wanna remember this forever! What’s the date?”
Security dude: “-September 11th 2001”
I do NOT REMEMBER THIS SCENE I can literally only recall him up in that tree and him at that pool 😭
Bro that sent me into the stratosphere 😩
This scene was outta pocket 🥲
@Keke H I laughed so damn hard lol
I remember my 10 y/o ass being so moved by this scene like "omg he was happyyyyy then he was so saaaaad omg noooo"
I have a thought about MJ that I think can put his personality in perspective, so just stick with me here:
I was SA/graped and also prescribed narcotics. That led to a decade of addiction. Since I got clean 4 yrs ago, I’ve felt I’m a bit younger than I actually am because I didn’t experience that part of my life. I still somewhat feel like I’m in my early/mid 20’s. In reality I actually just turned 33. My trauma and addiction put me in a different place mentally. I’m an intelligent person, but I’m trying to experience the life I missed when I was younger. It’s honestly impossible to control. My mind thinks I’m just now experiencing what would have been the next part of my life if I didn’t become an addict. This is a common phenomenon in the mental health community.
So basically what I’m saying, trauma and loss of youth can have a profound effect on you. I honestly think that’s what happened to him.
Yeah although it doesn’t make it right. Luckily he didn’t actually do SA or anything like that he just slept next to kids which he clearly need therapy for. Although a lot of people don’t care about mental health whatsoever.
I'm very sorry that happened to you. It sounds like hell. But we know some people (typically men) can be SA'd as kids and grow up to abuse others. Being obsessed over lost childhood (making a Neverland Ranch, having cardboard cutouts of baby models in his room, letting kids sleep in his bed) + being friends with child stars as an a adult & having unsupervised phone convos with them + drugs + money all stand out as super red flags that he abused those kids. At the VERY least, he was extremely inappropriate/creepy and someone should've stepped in before it got to that point, be it his family, the kids' families, or the authorities.
Obvious trigger warnings here. But inviting a child to sleep in your bed (as an adult, an adult MAN, who may or may not have been high) is extremely triggering for us survivors and a major red flag. If he wasn't MJ, I think we would view his red flags very differently.
@@ambriaashley3383 this
100% trauma and abuse can stunt a person mentally. Even if it's just their response to stress ect. I think Michael was very hurt and stuck in a lot of ways.
@@jeffisjeff5511 why do you need therapy for SLEEPING??? Makes no sense. Esp when the person in question SLEEPS ON THE FLOOR most of the time and has sleeping problems, mostly walking around his property in the night writing music. You people forget about how MJ was working CONSTANTLY and he had a night working habit as well. It wasn't like he needed kids to sleep. He did need company. He had at least one beother or one bodyguard with him ALL THE TIME since he was a young kid. You all pretend as if his life was anything like any other person's. It wasn't.
He needed therapy to deal with naivity and believing in the goodness of people. But that's all he had left, after he lost his childhood, his privacy, his chance for a normal family life he so desparately wanted, having friends (instead of worshippers a business associates and leeches). Wouldn't YOU have desires for normal and honest relationships in such circumstances? Could you say no to a kid, who begs you to let him/her sleep in your room, if that was the only reality you can have?
I feel when it comes to the allegations my opinion is: we will never truly know what happened, the only people who truly know are MJ and the kids. But it’s weird that he hung out and had slumber parties with kids. Yes he had a horrible childhood, does that make his actions any less weird? No, not really.
True. I think it may have been age regression? Nowadays, we're used to seeing it in women and a few men, but he was a big star and he was a grown man. The way handling children has a different reaction depending on your sex also makes it difficult. I hope he didn't do anything, people have debunked the accusers, but I really think no one told him off for doing it till then.
Yeah, lots of people are regressed because of abuse. They don't all sleep in the same bed as a child they aren't related to. Even as a child, hearing that on the news made me very uncomfortable. I can not listen to his music without feeling that same discomfort.
eva krajenbrink Yes we can know what happened , this case has tons of evidence available. There is no question he was innocent when you look at all available evidence. The most horrific character assassination of all time. When you dig into the case you are shocked how could all this happened, how could the media be so evil, how could those leech families be so evil.
@@samanthanorton4538 MJ grew up sleeping in a bed with others and saw nothing sexual about it. Besides he was not accused of sleeping in a bed. He was accused of specific sex acts with male bodies he had ZERO interest in, not the least because he was not attracted to males. He shared a bed with boys like he shared a bed with Marlon Jackson growing up. No difference.
@@samanthanorton4538 His music is more evidence of his innocence, if only you actually paid attention. Check this out: "Michael Jackson, Lost Children and the Real Story"
This movie made me realize just how much the media mistreated Michael Jackson. This movie was made in order to disrespect, humiliate, and dehumanize him.
Agreed. And how they brought it back up again with different people just to tarnish his name, BUT HES DEAD and he couldn’t defend himself
right, the way he was still alive when this came out is crazy. he must have been mortified.
And I don’t like how Kennie said MJ was weird. Just because someone is shy and probably socially anxious doesn’t make them weird. He seemed very intelligent when he spoke and he never seemed “weird” to me. He always just looked like a person who was traumatized from a long time and never got help.
@@iammar1159 maybe it was because he would have sleep over with younger kids... I think that's because of his childhood that that happened. I don't know if anything sexual happened though.
@@disturbingbliss1973 Yeah I completely understand that part. I was just specifically speaking about him being perceived as weird because of his shyness.
You should do the Aaliyah lifetime biopic. Now that was an unmitigated disaster.
That has gotta be one of THEE most disrespectful movies ever made
@@ayannabranchcomb7535 The way they romanticized the situation with R Kelly 😑🤬
@@ayannabranchcomb7535 definitely especially with the bad music and the R Kelly scenes.
@@LeeyaMakesNoise I think me and my family made it halfway through before we quit bc
It was literally one of the worst things I’ve ever seen 😂
I'll never forgive them for throwing powder on that man like that. Flex really should be ashamed of himself for this 😂
😂
Let him get his check
I felt so attacked for that September 11th transition because I laughed so hard I choked😭
THE GREEN HAIRED KENNIE CONTENT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR
it’s giving sailor pluto
I’ve only known this movie via black Twitter and the clown wry about Flex Alexander’s audacity of even playing in this movie. So thank you for the needed laugh and bringing my needed context of the movie full circle
i have been a michael jackson fan for 11 years. i am not conflicted on how i feel about him. the main thing i feel towards mj is sadness. initially, my knee jerk response was to believe the victims. who’s response wouldn’t be that? but when i read the court files, and studied the case myself, i realized the media completely ALIENIZED the whole situation. in a truly disgusting and terrible way. they coincidentally left out RECORDINGS of one of the parents admitting to trying to ruin this man’s life because of the relationship Michael had with his ex wife. the media FAILED to mention how in the first cases, Jackson was trying to push to go to criminal court 4 TIMES, but the family refused to cooperate and demanded a settlement of 20 million dollars instead. the media FAILED to mention that these “sleepovers” were held with other adults in the room. the media FAILED to mention how Michael Jackson was under surveillance by the FBI for 10 years and there was nothing. the media FAILED to mention the blatant inconsistencies within the case. i just ask everyone to please do their research before jumping on this man. i just feel sorry for him.
As someone who lives outside the US and never thought of looking for the court files, I'm glad I found many comments like yours. I always had the feeling he was innocent, so thank you for this information and I will look those files up. I'm very sad his legacy was tainted by all this. I'm 40 and loved his music so much growing up. He was an amazing artist.
Not trying to argue, just a healthy debate. What’s your theory on why two perfectly successful men would ruin their reputation and make up extremely graphic stories about child SA?
As much as the facts are debated, the painful testimony from multiple men, with everything to lose and seemingly nothing to gain was what convicted me.
Would love to hear a counter opinion!
my thoughts exactly
@@xhanurax Jussie Smollett faked a homophobic & racially charged assault at the peak of his fame. The sad thing is that the world runs on 'clout' nowadays.
@@xhanurax I recommend watching the leaving neverland doc review by aba & preach. I lost all confidence in the legitimacy of the accusations afterward.
PLEASE make a looped video with you saying "they don't believe in neverland!!" because the way you kept saying it was some of the funniest shit I've ever heard🤣😂😂😂
Can we take a moment to clarify that Michael Jackson was still ALIVE when this movie premiered. This man was ALIVE and RICH and said let’s have a 6’3 man play as 5’9 King Of Pop. And made no changes…Just Sayin!
Idk why but I have to believe that he probably found this movie hilarious
Lol it was unauthorized so he wasn’t a part of the production
I don’t think Michael was involved in that foolery at all.
He was never part of this biopic at all and found it offensive.He did take part in casting people for a 1992 biopic about the Jackson 5.
Michael owned the rights to his music, so if he had anything to do with it, they definitely would’ve been able to use his music in it which they did not.
I’m 19 now, and yeah this is definitely a conflicting, jarring and confusing situation. My relationship to the legacy and music of MJ is kinda complicated but not too different from many of my friends or people I’ve talked to at length about this topic. I grew up on MJ, my parents loved him and his music. Honestly, I didn’t watch interviews of his when I was younger (I didn’t care ig?) and so I only knew him as this mega star with immense talent and a tragic upbringing. When he died, it was weird for me because I was still too young to really connect his face to the voice I would hear on the radio or in cassette tapes, but I still was sad ig. My sisters and I went through a phase right after his death where we were just OBSESSED with his music and so that was all I can remember of that time. We had dvds of his music videos, we cut out newspaper clips to read and just study bc we were so fascinated by how big of a figure in pop culture he was/is. I was too young to know about the allegations so I just had fond memories of his music.
Fast forward to now and yeah, I’m really conflicted and confused. There’s just too much information (but also too little?) and a lot of differing accounts of him as a person, so I honestly just decided that I would regard him as someone almost larger than life, but as a very complex individual that I just don’t know. I still love his music and his artistry on that front, but anything else is something I decided I’m going to stay away from for the most part.
I’m very much someone who will try and believe victims first and foremost, especially in cases involving children. I don’t usually like to have to separate artists from art bc I feel as though that’s just a cop-out in a way? Idk, I’m still conflicted on that. MJ was definitely very bizarre and an enigma, and that’s why I’m not going to be someone who will say “no, he absolutely didn’t do this.” I’m not going to die on any hill involving him as a person. I respect his legacy as an artist and that’s really all I can do bc I just don’t know anything else, and I’m not going to try and put all of the pieces together to come to some sort of definitive conclusion. It’s a very layered situation, and that’s why I’ll fondly remember him as an artist, and accept that I don’t know anything else and maybe never will. I don’t really listen to his music on a regular basis and I haven’t since early middle school. I just feel really icky about the conversation as a whole because he really is such a controversial figure and the controversy is a big reason as to why people are still obsessed. I respect that we’ll never get the answers that we want, so I just don’t think about it most days. This is probably the most I’ve thought about it in years, and idk how I feel about that.
Tbh, I just get sad the more I think about it.
Hey I really think you should watch loving Neverland and the square one documentary I highly highly recommend.
It’s very informative and it’s a deep dive into the allegations
@@chelsea9641 yeess
I agree that believing victims and everything is important but this is one case where MJ truly is innocent. The FBI tracked that man for ten years and came up with nothing bc there was absolutely nothing and the most recent case was thrown out in court. I highly recommend if you’re interested to look into Lies of LN to really clarify everything. And also we have to stop using the media’s portrayal of a Black man in a powerful position to color our judgment, that’s exactly what they want is for people to think he’s weird, etc. When you look at his childhood to his adulthood, what he did in his life is more understandable and very complex.
I feel like separating art from the artist is important to enjoy stuff
It shouldn’t be considered a cop out to separate the artist from the art, you can love the art but hate the artist. Nothing wrong with that.
I’m 27 and Micheal Jackson was my first crush. I was absolutely in love with the man, like I cried when I was gifted one of his CDs. I was DEVASTATED when the allegations & stories came out, but I somewhat knew and really couldn’t defend it, even as a kid.
I remember being a dramatic af breaking his cds in half and throwing them across the room and chilling on him for a few years.
After watching this movie and the all the interviews that were coming out and just thought how sad he was. Sad because of all that he was going through but because I have an understanding (at the time) if things were true it’s because he was raised the way he was. Not defending his actions cause yea he was weird af lol but I respected his craft. He made good music, fought for civil rights and cared about the environment.
I can still listen to Remember the Time without a care and also crack some dark jokes about the man. It is what it is lol
I'm 22 and I still remember when his passing was televised, my family and I were big fans of Michael Jackson growing up and his music was ALWAYS playing in our house. I think with this whole situation, we'll never know, there is almost like this pause, like a 'To be continued..' which is why a lot of people are conflicted about that case, including I. I'm still conflicted to be honest, but we'll never know what happened. It begins to bring up the whole debate of art vs the artist and whether you can enjoy their artistry after they have passed, I don't have a conclusion really :(
Michael Jackson was something else. My parents got to see him live in South Africa before I was even born. To tell you that my siblings and I were jealous would be an understatement. So my parents took us to watch 'This is it' in theatres as emotional compensation. When he died my 7 year old self (and 24 year old brother) felt betrayed because he was supposed to go on tour. I watched the finding never land documentary, and for a good few year's I was actually very much against Michael Jackson but now that I'm older... I feel so torn because there's more evidence (or the lack thereof) that leans toward his innocence. The media didn't make any of this better. Besides that there is no denying that he had and still has a larger than life presence. My 7 year old nephew says his favourite singers are BTS and Michael Jackson.
BTS are legends right now ☺️😂 your nephew has taste
your nephew has taste! 😤👌
I’m 21. The earliest memory I have of Michael Jackson is being 3 years old and having his music introduced to me by my aunt and uncle. That’s one of my core memories. I have always enjoyed his music, but always saw him as this entity that wasn’t really human. I didn’t understand the allegations as a kid (or the thing with Blanket), but once I got older it did feel jarring to connect him with the man that I’ve heard all these cool stories about from my family. I agree that he was misunderstood and was preyed on. However, there are some instances or behaviors that I can’t wrap my head around.
Same age and yeah! I literally couldn’t understand what was going on with the allegations
@@alexispiper1270 The media made sure the public had no clue about how fucked up those families really were. The more you learn about them the more disgusting they look. Nice guys are the easiest targets and MJ was too nice for his own good
I think the issue with Leaving Neverland was the lack of research and verification of the timeline as well as the skipping over some glaring coincidences. One of the guys is saying that the abuse occurred in a location in Neverland that wasn't even built at the time he says that the abuse occurred, one of the guys father's was literally recorded on the phone saying he would extort Michael for money, & then the third guy who denied it but changed his story later coincidentally changed his story around the same time that he wasn't chosen to be included as a choreographer on a Michael Jackson project for cirque du soleil.🤔
The guy in the recording wasn’t the father of one of the two men in the documentary. He was the father of one of the kids that Michael went to trial for and he ended up committing suicide years later in 2009. Wade Robison who was in the documentary father also committed suicide, in 2002.
I'm 23, so young but still old enough to remember Michael in my childhood and remember where I was when I found out he passed away. Up until like Spring 2020, I would only casually listen to his music, but didn't really care about him much. My mom has always been of the opinion that he is fully innocent, but she's not the kind of person that is a big fan of anyone, so despite knowing that is how she felt, and sometimes her putting on his music, he wasn't a big influence in my life growing up. Likely the one time he was, was the day he died.
So, when Spring 2020 came, I saw in my recommended page a video about Michael and the allegations, and I went "Fuck it", and watched it. And then I spent almost a whole month watching and reading about the allegations, and everything pertaining to Michael. I was very much so in the rabbit hole, like you wouldn't be able to dig me out even if you tried. And after watching everything, and doing lots of reading, I came to the conclusion that yes, he is a strange man, and yes, he could have handled everything in a different way, maybe also just be a much more responsible adult, but that ultimately, he did not do anything he was accused off. The most I would say is sleeping in the same bed as the kids was inappropriate, but even that argument isn't factual, as he often did not actually sleep in the same bed as the kids, and their parents were always welcomed to stay, if they wanted to.
I'm still mostly just a casual listener of his music, at the time when I was doing the research, I did pay far more attention to his music, but after a few weeks, I went right back to just being a casual listener. I think for me, despite only sometimes listening to his music, the reason why I do support him and defend him, is simply because I hate when people are accused of such awful things, because it only makes it harder for victims to be taken seriously, which will make it easier or a real abuser to get away with such a thing. Sexual assault is something no one should ever lie about, and most cases are not lies, but those few that are, makes the lives of sexual assault victims 10x harder, and this is something some of my friends who have been SA victims say. And so, because of this, because ultimately my goal is to protect victims and help them be heard, that is why I am so adamant about defending him whenever I need to. Of course, I don't often go around like Twitter and spew all of this to people. All the research materials are there and available, yes not all of us have a whole month to do said research like how I did, but if everyone did spare a few hours out of their day for like a week or so, I think most of us would walk away with the opinion that yeah, he's innocent. Even when watching Finding Neverland, yes, it is a very emotionally charged documentary, but when you move away from the emotions, and just look at the "facts" being presented, you begin to see that the picture being painted by the tears, does not add up. Instead of forming a Picasso, it just looks more like smeared paint on a canvas with burnt out holes all over the place. So much presented, was easily disproved by just a simple Google search. Yes, a lot of sexual assault cases are hard to prove because things like dates are not that easy to remember, but when the entire story just feels like a badly put together puzzle, then it's time to move away from the puzzle, and figure out for yourself if the pieces given, even belong to the puzzle you are trying to solve.
Anyways, my point with this comment is that I've never been a huge fan. I think he is the performer of all generations, but that's something most people believe, even if they don't want to admit it. He was a larger-than-life man, and no one will ever amount to the fame he had, and as you said, no one should because its frankly very damaging. Michael had a lot of clear issues due to this fame and his upbringing, part of me feels like some supervised age regression could have worked wonders for his mental health, but we will never know. I defend him because that to me feels right, and so far, in my short 23 years of living, what feels right to me, has proven to be the right course of action & the right decision, so if the research, my logic, and my gut tells me this is the hill I should die on, then it's the hill I will not die on, but will firmly stand on until proven otherwise, because despite defending him, if anyone can show me undeniable evidence that he did in fact molest a bunch of kids, I will not hesitate to drop his shit. I've kicked people out of my life for less, I'm not about to support a man that isn't even alive if he truly was that bad of a person. Anyways, I will shut up now lol
this was wonderful to read, thank you
worst part is this actually got released while Michael was still alive 😭
edit: just watched the whole video and just wanna say there is proof that the men accusing him are liars i recommend lies of leaving neverland if you are interested
Rumor has it he watched it and said that it disgusted him.
Exactly! When she said 2004, I was like, "They really had the gall to let him see this..."
Definitely a movie I remember and I was traumatized 😂😂😂😂😂
@@janeeyx5672 I’m surprised that he didn’t sue VH1 because that film is foul.
oh lord 💀💀
We learned a lot of information about Michael Jackson during the 2005 trial, which our group covered for a journalism project in college. Mind you, most of us really didn't care all that much about Jackson until we started to see the difference between the media's coverage of him and what actually was revealed during the 2005 trial. We had access to the official courtroom transcripts. He was apparently very intelligent and there was a massive amount of books entered into the record because they were found at Neverland. IMO, It seems he didn't want to fall into the hateful side of "adulthood", but that doesn't mean he was stupid or unintelligent.
As for the allegations, it's a mess. You sort of made the argument that we don't know what would've happened until MeToo. But that's not true. People really need to do a deep dive into the courtroom transcripts and get a sense of what the media coverage of that trial was like. The Jackson case in 2005 was massive. Regular news were breaking into regular programming periodically to give updates. 24H news talked about it for hours on end. All of CourtTV was the Jackson trial.
What we learned is the prosecution probably should have never brought that case to begin with. They had a grand jury that failed to bring an indictment against Jackson. So they filed the case themselves. Similarly in 1993, they had 2 grand juries in different locations which also refused to hand down an indictment against Jackson. We found that out later. There was no c.p. found anywhere at Neverland or any other living quarters visited by Jackson. Nothing on the computers. They had the FBI do an investigation too, which turned up nothing.
But getting back to 2005, the 2005 accuser said the allegations happened during one set period of time. Then, the media found out Jackson was in Florida during some of that time period. So, once the trial started, the alleged dates of abuse were changed by either the prosecution or the accuser. That's why people were confused as to why Jackson would allegedly START a/b/u sing the accuser after the Bashir doc. A total mess.
They (prosecutors) put ppl on the stand in 2005 to say they saw abuse, but the defense actually called the now grown men to the stand who said nothing ever happened. Not only that, the kids (now adults) told these very same prosecutors that Jackson never touched them when they were still children. We found out those people put on the stand by the prosecution had sued Jackson for wrongful termination and lost, and some had to file for bankruptcy because they had to pay Jackson, who had countersued. Some were paid by media outlets for stories.
We also found out there wasn't just boys at Neverland. That Neverland was a place where some businesses would hold retreats and conferences. That Neverland was more akin to a resort than a "house". That Jackson spent a lot of time away from Neverland while everyone would come and go as they please. That there was a whole fire station and administration building, staffed by full time fire-fighters located there. That security cameras were everywhere. His now grown niece did an interview recently where she said cameras were in the trees all over the property as well as inside.
The 1993 accuser, where this all started, refused to cooperate with the 2005 prosecution. Through the media, we heard a confirmed, recorded phone convo between the 1993 accuser's father and his step father in which the guy's on tape saying "Everything's going according to a certain plan that it's just mine". It was a jarring experience and one I remember after all this time.
As for Leaving Neverland, that reminded me of researching the 2005 trial so I paid attention. The allegations were beyond questionable. I think I've never seen a situation come as close to proving a negative as this. Like, the building - the very structure one of these ppl claimed multiple SAs took place - didn't exist until later. The building didn't exist at the time he claimed he was laying up in it getting SA'ed by Jackson. 🤦🏾♀ A mess.
The 2nd guy in Leaving Neverland (the one who changed his story after testifying for Jackson at trial) had similar testimony against Jackson's estate in a civil case thrown out of court. The Judge found his testimony not to be credible. He (that accuser) was found to be researching the details of other allegations and emailing the information to himself, which made it look like he was trying to get his story right. And there's so much more.
Did I mention that at least 2 of these prosecutors in the 2005 trial were also the ones in charge of the 1993 allegation? There was talk of "unfinished business" and "prosecutorial misconduct" at this time.
I give a lot of leeway to Jackson because he actually went to court, unlike some of these other ppl. This isn't just an allegation. His entire life was put on trial in public and he was found not guilty by a jury with no Black people on it, in a very very conservative county where Neverland is located. (There was 1 Black Alternate juror, but he/she never made it on the jury). I'm confident enough to say it looks like dude got railroaded and we fell for it.
Once your life gets put on trial, either the information is there or it's not. The prosecution was allowed broad leeway to try the case too. The Judge let just about everything in; prior unproven allegations and all. And nothing. The cross-examination of some of these people was extremely eye-opening and very little of it was actually reported by the media. So people were presented with a different narrative than what was actually happening in court. It was a whole mess. 🤦🏾♀
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you for this.
Yeah I can’t believe people think he’s guilty
THANK YOU. But you know what’s sad? People won’t even attempt to do the actual research themselves. 🤦🏾♀️
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really wish people would just look at the evidence from the courts themselves instead of believing the twisted truth the media gave them.
Thank you for this. This should be read by everyone, especially those who believe that MJ is guilty. The truth is always there, you just have to look for it sincerely. If you are not angry, I will copy and share this for every hot head who believes in the lies from the tabloids.
Even though I’m 16, I definitely feel the way you do about michael! Maybe its because he was my parents childhood star when they grew up in the 80’s, so I was raised on his music as a kid (recalling all those videos of my 5 year old self failing to moonwalk), but I’m so absolutely torn on how to feel about this guy. It’s ridiculous. I’m really glad you brought this up because I’ve been going through the exact same internal conflict, getting back into his music this last few months. And the thing is he really is a one-time phenomenon, so you don’t feel like you have any other situation to compare him to. That makes it that much harder
I had the Michael Jackson's number Ones DVD and CD combo too! Those music videos were my comfort watch to fall asleep to for like 6 months
I still don’t know how Flex saw his makeup and that wig and said this works. Also those random dance scenes, terrible just terrible.
As someone who old enough to remember how big MJ was in the 90s, (I’m a late 80s baby) you are correct we will never see a person at that big ever again. Which is probably good because the media tormented him so badly. And what’s even worse he didn’t have too many people he could trust in his personal life. I hope Michael never knew this movie existed.
I heard he actually did and was offended by it.
Bro when she said this was a 2004 movie I was like "MJ died in 2009.... He was alive to see this movie.... omg???"
I remember when Michael jackson died. I was like 8. When my mom told me my lil dumbass gonna ask "The white one or the black one" 🤦🏽♀️ I had spent my whole life thinking there were two different michael Jackson's.
💀💀💀💀💀 I’m dying. I remember when he passed too. I was able 10 years old and literally started crying when I saw it on tv.
Girl i was 9 and thought he was a family member of mines cause my moms was crying her eyes TF OUT😂
When I was a kid I thought Michael Jackson was also Michael Jordan- I hadn't seen Michael Jordan at that time and just got the names confused 💀
I really hate that I laughed at this 😭😂
HELP WH AT SVSJSBSO
23:33 I didn’t expect to burst out laughing. I’ll meet you there Kennie
My absolute favorite thing about this series is literally your word choice and usage like girl you are literally hilarious af😭
I'll be 32 this year, and "complicated" is a good descriptor for how I feel about Michael Jackson; my feelings usually swing widely between "maybe he did" to "probably he did" to "hopefully he didn't, for everyone involved"~ I'm dealing with similar feelings for another artist that I'm a fan of, and "complicated" sums everything up pretty well, when it comes to my feelings, I think...
Well if you feel so unsure about his innocence then pls do research on this case there’s plenty of documentaries and videos that explain that he’s innocent while giving actual facts like square one or the lies of leaving neverland
@Sakura what’s creepy ??
@@bradwhatareyagonnado8259 as someone was talking to a friend about safeguarding, he crossed boundaries many times e.g. the sleepovers or even putting his arm around the kids. it's technically boundary crossing.
@@WithADashOfPazazz as long as someone is comfortable with it there’s no boundaries crossed don’t know why y’all tryna twist it in something it want the kids felt like he was there friend and so kids even called him dad which Michael felt bad for and told their parents
Torie Carter Check out this documentary and realize how much the media refuse to report about this case
"Square One: New Evidence in Michael Jackson Case | Full Documentary"
MJ had absolutely no interest in kids' bodies. None.
I came out of the womb a michael jackson fan. I remember telling my mom when I was 3 that when I grow up I’m going to marry him (that ended pretty quickly because 3 yrs later he passed away). I cried for days when I found out he passed away. My mom also likes to rub it into my face that she when to his concert for free in 1987 in Paris. I had so much michael jackson memorabilia as a child. I used to be so jealous of his children as a 4 yr old. When I say I was a superfan. I was a SUPERFAN. I knew his birthday and birthplace before I could even read.
I'm 30...was in 4th grade for 9/11. Honestly.....I have always felt like he did it. But I completely agree with you. People just don't even consider it as an option. I think older people....like their parents were married at 13 and 22 are the ones that always act like he definitely didn't do it....
"If you laugh I'll meet you in hell." I'll bring the booze, y'all 😭😂
*EDIT:* I'm 24 and the topic of Michael is hard for me. I honestly don't believe he did it, but I can't in good conscience be 100% on it. Ice resigned myself to loving his music and knowing that I most likely will never know the whole truth on the matter
I suggest you watch Razorfist’s Michael Jackson rebuttal and the Square One documentary. It really opened my eyes on how the media manipulated the truth and how things really went down.
I really want to see a colored brow look from you Kennie. The girlies want to see a green to black ombré brow and/or a shego inspired look
I WAS GONNA SAY THE SAME THING YESSSSS
Yes! The girlies need a Shego look while green haired Kennie is still here
With a black lip and some green contacts too 🥺💕💗✨
She would eat with a Shego look
I'm 43 and personally I've always remained neutral. I don't know the truth so I can't really say with conviction one way or another. But I've felt bad for the kids involved. They were the victims whether he touched them or not. I can however say I'm super suspect of these parents. I have 4 kids and I wouldn't have let my kids stay with him for love or money. A grown man having sleepover with my kids? Not even if Jesus was pouring me drinks and that's without all the accusations. I feel those parents motives were sus and I don't care if I offend them. Sending your kids off with someone that's been accused multiple times.... yeah that's a no for me.
Exactly! I'm neutral too and the only people I have a bone to pick with are the parents, it's like where was y'all at when your kids (which you took to MJ) were out and about MJ???
I'm also 43 and feel the same.
@@-Desire MJ and some of the parents in court docs etc states that they were present
Well having sleepover doesn’t mean fckin kids and as you sad the parents were ok with it idk why y’all tryna twist this into something inappropriate when they weren’t even sleeping in one bed
Definitely feel bad for the kids, either they were abused by MJ or their parents. If he didn't do it and the parents convinced them he did something terrible to them, that has to be so traumatic, to be used by your parents. Would take so much therapy to unravel and be okay after that type of betrayal
So my mom is a huge huge huge Michael Jackson stan and so this man and his art were nearly inescapable while I was growing up and I'm so tempted to watch this movie with her and just watch her go off and rant and rave bc when my mom is passionate about something she is passionate passionate and Michael Jackson just so happens to be one subject she's most passionate about
My mom is such a huge stan she named me Parys bc he named his daughter Paris ...then spelled it wrong 🤧
Girl the disdain I have for this movie I can’t even put into words. It literally made me not want to watch another Flex Washington show/ movie again. I get mad every time I think about it 🤣🤣🤣
One thing that always stuck with me about Michael Jackson's popularity was that one of his music videos premiered on network tv during prime time. I had to look it up to verify, and it was the vid "Black or White" which premiered after a Simpsons episode in 1991. In modern terms viewer wise, that's debuting your video during the Superbowl halftime show.
Exactly. He had several music videos that premiered during prime time TV on MTV, VH1, BET, and FOX simultaneously. Black or White also premiered at the same time in 27 other countries. His videos would take over TV like a presidential address.
Black or White is still on of the most viewed music videos premieres in history at 500 million viewers. Pretty crazy
I think my parents had a recording of it via camcorder with the excuse being they were filming me as a baby and totally not just filming a music video "event" lol.
I’m 19 and I remember how my mom was obsessed with Michael Jackson when I was younger. Even despite the allegations, and the fact that she considered him unnerving and weird, and the fact that she liked him, physically, more when he was in his Thriller days, before all the surgeries, she was a loyal fan of his music till the end. I swear, when he died, she literally told me that she WOKE UP that morning because the radio news said that Michael was dead.
I look back at my mom’s loyalty to Michael, a loyalty that was in some ways unintentional. She just adored his music. She loved his voice, his beats, his dancing, etc. She looked no further than his talent as a songwriter and a performer. She said “Michael was a genius, and geniuses tend to be crazy.”
In the same way that people like Charles Dickens’s novels despite the fact that he was an abusive monster in real life. A wall is built between beautiful works of art and the controversial person behind them, in order to enjoy consuming/admiring said works of art. My mom chose to continue loving Michael’s music, even though she disliked him as a person.
I’m not really sure if Michael Jackson did the things he was accused of. I honestly am as conflicted as you. What I do know is, he was a genius and has gone down in history as the King of Pop. And I think he will always be remembered, first, as a performer, than as a terrible, broken, dysfunctional human being. He is the Dickens of the 20th century - he will be respected for his music alone, but the rest of him (his life, his personality, his actions) would remain too conflicting and too painful to discuss.
He was innocent actually he just needed some therapy because he did sleep next to the kids although he didn’t find it wrong because it wasn’t sexual so yeah much needed therapy…
+despite the allegations"? Those were JUST ALLEGATIONS, you know? What if people accuse you with something? Would you wanted to be treated as a criminal well before you can tell your version? What if nobody believes you, because "we have to believe the accusers, who would lie about such a thing"? When we all know how many horrible things people would do for money.
I was obsessed too. There was something actually other worldly about his talent. You watch it now and nothing and no one has come close yet.
I just turned 27 in November (Ugh!). I knew how famous MJ was, but I didn't realize how famous Janet was for her music until recently. I was listening to some of her music and I didn't realize how many of her songs I knew from the late-90s, early-2000s. Even her acting. I didn't realize she was acting since she was young until Good Times started airing on one of my tv channels. And I keep forgetting she was in Poetic Justice!
I never believed the accusations. I have to side-eye you when you as a parent choose to sue your child's abuser instead of asking for jail time. Even now, one of the children is a grown ass adult upset that MJ didn't let him choreograph his tour before his death. You do make good points about a victim being confused, but the parents' behavior and one of the now-adult victims saying he was still in contact with MJ before he dies, tells me that there most likely was no sexual abuse. If so, the parents are equally at fault and should be jailed!
“Casper the friendly n****” KENNIE LMAOOO
No you don't understand Kennie. I remember watching this as a kid...the memories you have unlocked.
I was first introduced to MJ when I watch the wizard of oz with his and Diana Ross in it. I had no idea who he was and remember my aunt being like “YOU DONT KNOW WHO MJ IS???” I fell in love with him after the movie. Unfortunately about 1 month later he died. It was all over the news. All I could think as a young girl was “Didn’t I just watch him on tv??” Haha sad times.😅
Thank you for bringing up this topic. Its always felt to me like we like to just ignore what they don't like knowing- especially if it doesn't physically effect us- like how people ignore mass tragedies and loss for the most part(or post a black square in lieu of really feeling things/cis men staying inactive towards femme issues). Also, society is really into making excuses for abusers and attackers, particularly white male ones - partially because patriarchy but also because no one wants to do the work of fixing deeper issues that lead to abuse/being an abuser. It's a hard part of humanity to admit is real when you haven't experienced it first hand (sometimes even then), because we want to think people are mostly good and that we pick out who is evil easily. and really that kind of evil is hard to face as a part of our reality I get it. We have yet to en mass acknowledge this, though MeToo movements help a lot.
As a childhood SA survivor however, I wish there had been space for my abuser to seek mental health help, space for him to see and change his anger, his drinking and his ignorance of his subconscious before it led to him acting those intrusions on my 7 year old body. I can see how those steps may have been helped beforehand, and not much that can be done after...except for me, using my healing process to help others understand that it doesn't always take an evil person. we are all capable of good and bad and its about building humans to recognise what they are choosing for themselves as they grow up. These abusive actions are much more common than most want to believe because human inner self awareness isn't even taught in school. Emotional intelligence training is missing from our curriculum, in my opinion. Until we can admit our societal shortcomings as far as emotional intelligence, it will largely remain the same. thanks for listening and creating this space Kennie
Micheal Jackson was one of the first times in my young life when I had to learn to separate the art from the artist. I loved his music and have fond memories of him being one of the only musicians I’d listen to with my grandma, but as you said... That nigga was so weird, and made some terrible life choices, but. Thriller will always be a bop, thoouughhh. 😎
that nigga was innocent. the only bad life choice he made was having faith in humanity
This takes me back to when I and my classmates in primary 5 thought that a white man killed the black MJ and took his pace and for some reason the Americans never noticed, this was among many of our delusions on pop culture.
I thought he was famous because he was the first person to change his race 😂. I was like 5 so I feel you
I like how Kennie called MJ a 'phantom'. I always thought that was a reference to 'Phantom of the Opera', since MJ was interested in playing the role of the Phantom or Erik, but when he talked to ALW about making a musical film with him in it, Andrew said it was still too early to make a film (if I recall correctly, this conversation they had was during the time when the POTO stage musical had just started premiering, so it's still a pretty much new.)
My dad raised me with Michael Jackson's music, I was introduced to him when I was 5 or so and listening to his music now, at 27 makes me incredibly nostalgic and gives me a warm feeling. I thought of him as some sort of treasure, someone who would transcend death to remain a wonder of the world, and so he has, but to me it's a tainted legacy. I always believe all victims, but I can't help that his presence as an artist and his music shaped my childhood. There's also this feeling of not knowing what to believe because everyone is so divided on the subject, so I feel like we will never know, not unless there's video proof or something tangible that tells us this man was a monster. Idk, man, I'm very conflicted, I want to take the victims word for it but what if it isn't true? But what does that make me for not instantly believing a victim? And Michael was evidently so tortured, sure he was weird but there's a reason why he was the way he was, does that mean he was a paedophile? I don't fucking know. Not that I get a say but I can't properly separate the art from the person, so I think of this every single time I listen to his music or watch his movies, and it's a bittersweet thing for me.
Sky Quill How on earth do you know if they were victims and not false accusers if you just blindly believe whatever they say? What exactly do you believe? That MJ risked everything to look at Safechuck's asshole? Seriously.
It's okay to tell conflicted, but I feel like we have another evidence that shows he didn't do anything to those kids. That being said, it's important to do your own research and come to your own conclusion.
from another commenter:
We learned a lot of information about Michael Jackson during the 2005 trial, which our group covered for a journalism project in college. Mind you, most of us really didn't care all that much about Jackson until we started to see the difference between the media's coverage of him and what actually was revealed during the 2005 trial. We had access to the official courtroom transcripts. He was apparently very intelligent and there was a massive amount of books entered into the record because they were found at Neverland. IMO, It seems he didn't want to fall into the hateful side of "adulthood", but that doesn't mean he was stupid or unintelligent.
As for the allegations, it's a mess. You sort of made the argument that we don't know what would've happened until MeToo. But that's not true. People really need to do a deep dive into the courtroom transcripts and get a sense of what the media coverage of that trial was like. The Jackson case in 2005 was massive. Regular news were breaking into regular programming periodically to give updates. 24H news talked about it for hours on end. All of CourtTV was the Jackson trial.
What we learned is the prosecution probably should have never brought that case to begin with. They had a grand jury that failed to bring an indictment against Jackson. So they filed the case themselves. Similarly in 1993, they had 2 grand juries in different locations which also refused to hand down an indictment against Jackson. We found that out later. There was no c.p. found anywhere at Neverland or any other living quarters visited by Jackson. Nothing on the computers. They had the FBI do an investigation too, which turned up nothing.
But getting back to 2005, the 2005 accuser said the allegations happened during one set period of time. Then, the media found out Jackson was in Florida during some of that time period. So, once the trial started, the alleged dates of abuse were changed by either the prosecution or the accuser. That's why people were confused as to why Jackson would allegedly START a/b/u sing the accuser after the Bashir doc. A total mess.
They (prosecutors) put ppl on the stand in 2005 to say they saw abuse, but the defense actually called the now grown men to the stand who said nothing ever happened. Not only that, the kids (now adults) told these very same prosecutors that Jackson never touched them when they were still children. We found out those people put on the stand by the prosecution had sued Jackson for wrongful termination and lost, and some had to file for bankruptcy because they had to pay Jackson, who had countersued. Some were paid by media outlets for stories.
We also found out there wasn't just boys at Neverland. That Neverland was a place where some businesses would hold retreats and conferences. That Neverland was more akin to a resort than a "house". That Jackson spent a lot of time away from Neverland while everyone would come and go as they please. That there was a whole fire station and administration building, staffed by full time fire-fighters located there. That security cameras were everywhere. His now grown niece did an interview recently where she said cameras were in the trees all over the property as well as inside.
The 1993 accuser, where this all started, refused to cooperate with the 2005 prosecution. Through the media, we heard a confirmed, recorded phone convo between the 1993 accuser's father and his step father in which the guy's on tape saying "Everything's going according to a certain plan that it's just mine". It was a jarring experience and one I remember after all this time.
As for Leaving Neverland, that reminded me of researching the 2005 trial so I paid attention. The allegations were beyond questionable. I think I've never seen a situation come as close to proving a negative as this. Like, the building - the very structure one of these ppl claimed multiple SAs took place - didn't exist until later. The building didn't exist at the time he claimed he was laying up in it getting SA'ed by Jackson. 🤦🏾♀ A mess.
The 2nd guy in Leaving Neverland (the one who changed his story after testifying for Jackson at trial) had similar testimony against Jackson's estate in a civil case thrown out of court. The Judge found his testimony not to be credible. He (that accuser) was found to be researching the details of other allegations and emailing the information to himself, which made it look like he was trying to get his story right. And there's so much more.
Did I mention that at least 2 of these prosecutors in the 2005 trial were also the ones in charge of the 1993 allegation? There was talk of "unfinished business" and "prosecutorial misconduct" at this time.
I give a lot of leeway to Jackson because he actually went to court, unlike some of these other ppl. This isn't just an allegation. His entire life was put on trial in public and he was found not guilty by a jury with no Black people on it, in a very very conservative county where Neverland is located. (There was 1 Black Alternate juror, but he/she never made it on the jury). I'm confident enough to say it looks like dude got railroaded and we fell for it.
Once your life gets put on trial, either the information is there or it's not. The prosecution was allowed broad leeway to try the case too. The Judge let just about everything in; prior unproven allegations and all. And nothing. The cross-examination of some of these people was extremely eye-opening and very little of it was actually reported by the media. So people were presented with a different narrative than what was actually happening in court. It was a whole mess. 🤦🏾♀
Love and listen to Michael Jackson because he is proven innocent. The alleged victims defended him when they were children, and now they change stories a hundred times, and were caught lying, all because of financial interests.
I’m as conflicted as you, but I think if he really was a pedo, I would think he would hide it better especially with all his money and therefore power. There’s tons of pedos within the famous Hollywood idols and their higher ups and we’d never know bc they have so much money and the power to control their image so that it never gets leaked. I wouldn’t think he’d be so careless about that if it was true. BUT people are dumb and think they’ll never get caught so they get sloppy with protecting their image. But who really knows? You can do all the research in the world and still feel personally conflicted.
SHOOK about this hair we don’t deserve queen 😭💚🪲🍀💚
I am 20 years old and I did not really realize how big he was until he died. For context I was 8 when he died. I remember almost every station playing his music or talking about it. When it comes to the cases, i never looked into it. I didn't watch the documentary and do not really care to. I understand the conflict in emotions though
mo mi It's not a documentary. It's the most abhorrent propaganda film the US UK TV industry ever farted out.
I am the same age definitely grew up with him in the house I don't remember much but vividly come home one day with the news he died I was upset but I was deeply upset I was too young and didn't no much really of him
one just have to make a lil research. MJ was soooo obviously innocent. The accusations were laughable. The prosecution in 2003-2005 was not onl unbased, they knowingly used liars as witnesses. If it wasn't MJ people would have been furious with what happened in that courtroom, MJ was robbed of his rights in that trial. But people wer into this Truman show of real life. Nobody seemed to care it was an actual human being and not a fantasy figure, that cannot hurt.
Twinsies! I am the same age and also didn't comprehend how big he was until I heard about his death on the radio
I had a Michael Jackson doll that I played with my barbies as a kid. It was after Thriller came out. It had the red jacket, glittery glove and everything. 😂
you articulated this so beautifully. this is EXACTLY how i feel about michael jackson and about certain artists whom i love but they did terrible things. it’s possible to love something but also hold actions accountable.
i’m 24 and i was such a fan when i was little and then he made me uncomfortable.
the fact that i was so young but VIVIDLY remember watching this terrible movie. it was quite terrifying 🤣🤣
28 years old and yeah, for sure have a complicated relationship with Michael Jackson's influence. As a kid, my brother and I had the DVD of his greatest music videos but when asked if we'd go to Neverland it was a firm "NO." Growing up in a black household surrounded by the culture, we knew the music was fire but that nigga was something else as a person. But ultimately, it should be emphasized that no other person, celebrity or otherwise, should have to go through that kind of life ever again. Loving the green tresses btw, happy new year 😘
i'm 26 and had a similar experience being a fan of michael jackson as a kid. and as a teenager becoming aware of the cases of sexual abuse/inappropriate behaviour around children i was very conflicted and fell into the trap of hoping he was innocent. i still am conflicted but understand that it's so unlikely he did nothing wrong, that he didn't interact with children wrongly. i can't just close off and pretend just because i like his music. i can't listen to his music completely comfortably, but also have that very strong sense of nostalgia (next to his music being good). i just don't actively listen to his music anymore because i feel so conflicted.
He is innocent though.
just research the case yourself. read the court documents for yourself. there was no case against him. the media taught y’all what to believe.
The thing is, all you've ever heard about Michael Jackson is how "weird' he was, according the some tabloid stories. This is on purpose. Hundreds of children who visited Neverland and spent time with Michael Jackson have never once said anything inappropriate happened. Hundreds of children compared the the 2 accusations in MJ's lifetime and the 2 men who accused him after his death. That ratio alone should show you that something wasn't right here. I recommend checking out the interviews that Michael's nieces and nephews have done in regards to Neverland and who their uncle really was. Brandi Jackson and Taj Jackson have tirelessly defended their uncle for years. There are also lots of great articles that discuss the hand that the media played in turning both Michael Jackson and the entire Jackson family into a "freakshow" , the demonization and dehumanization of Michael Jackson is one of the most disgusting and horrible things to ever occur in journalism. The HuffPost article "One of the Most Shameful Episodes in Journalistic History" is a great place to start.
@@prinnywinny9013 I did. He owned ALOT of nud• books of boys, and for Michael Jackson who apparently thought he was a little boy and wanted to have underage boys as his actual friends... that's alooot of p•rn found in his home and bedroom!
He was fake as he heck and absolutely not innocent.
Michael Jackson is proven innocent, so feel free to listen to his music.
1. VH1 having its own trigger warning is sending me
2. I randomly remember this movie and how much white/ashy Flex used to haunt me.
3. I'm 30 and grew up loving the Jacksons: the group, Michael solo, Janet, the Jackson 5 movie, everything. My feelings in general toward Michael Jackson are to believe the victims. An adult crossing boundaries (sleeping in bed with you), your name being in the public, your experiences being dissected and debated as if they're theoretical only, is deeply traumatizing. Trauma changes how your brain is wired, coupled on top of the fact that they were young children without fully formed brains in the first place. As an SA survivor and also a domestic violence advocate, how trauma affects you runs deep, especially with any form of crossing a sexual boundary. Children can't consent, even to something like laying in a bed together. I view sexual violence (crossing any sort of sexual boundary) as a violation of your forever home (your body) but you can't leave that home or place where you were traumatized.
For his music, I used to feel guilty about listening to it, and still have conflicted feelings. While his music wasn't about his inappropriate acts (like R. Kelly, who I refuse to listen to) the fame and celebrity he made off that music def contributed to his having access to these children/fans/people coming to the ranch. So... conflicted. Definitely listen to it less, and don't go searching for it but also don't skip if it comes on a Pandora playlist
Dominique What exactly do you believe? Why do you call them victims when they have been proven to be liars over and over again? Why don't you believe MJ who also said he was the victim of extortion and false accusations? Now every adult is interested in sex. Not every adult looks at a bed as a place for sex. And the very people who slept there keep saying nothing happened.
Dominique R Kelly was on tape he is proven guilty. There is no proof against Mj. Tell us which of his accusers you believe and which version of their ever changing story you believe and why on earth do you believe MJ would be interested in sex contact with any penis when he was disgusted by male on male sex? BTW his songs are just more evidence of his innocence , if only you listened to them and understood them. Start here: "Michael Jackson, Lost Children and the Real Story"
Frankly, you don't have an idea how MJ really was. He wanted to help and save abuse victims not create them
Dominique You can know from the accusers' behavior they were not traumatized by MJ at all and MJ was not interested in kids' bodies! His entire thing about kids was that he wanted to give them what he didn't have: a perfect childhood where everyone loved you, whether they were related or not. He was the exact opposite of what you think he was.
Michael Jackson is proven innocent. He was tortured and an investigation by police and the FBI found nothing. Also, the alleged victims were always asking for money, changing the story a hundred times. Real victims don't do that. So feel free to listen to his music, because he is innocent.
Dominique are you aware that this is nothing but some theories based on thin air? An adult sleeping in the same bed as you isn't traumatizing one bit. I slept as a kid with severla adult in the same bed - and that meant SLEEPING. I feel zero trauma. I loved the adult in question. The kids, who accused MJ were ALL traumatized BY THEIR PARENTS. That's what we know for sure. Jordan Chanlder was used by his father to get close to MJ to get money out of him. The Arvizo mother used her kids to lie for her in testimonies against companies to get money. She even pushed them to acting lessons to be able to lie better under oath. Robson's mother left her sick husband behind to chase fame for her kids. She pushed her kids onto MJ - it was never MJ, who loooked for the Robsons' company as anyone can tell. Same with Safechuck. He desparately chased fame and money. When he had no job, he could work for MJ - even as a young adult (which he lied about later on, because that doesn't fit into his 'traumatic" narrative. He was MJs assistant for years.
R Kelly committed crimes - that wasn't inappropriate behavior. As for MJ: the inappropriate behavior is something the media sensationalzed and you believed that SLEEPING is a traumatizing experience. It's BS.
As a big MJ fan who actually spent time reading about his life and watching interviews/documentaries about him, Michael was a very misunderstood and complex person. The tabloids often took whatever Michael said or did and twisted it into something negative. I would encourage people to research for themselves and they would see a lot of inconsistencies in those nasty rumors about him. Read about how the parents were nothing but scammers that used the allegations to try and extort him. Read about how they humiliated him by conducting strip searched and raiding his home, and they couldn’t find ANYTHING to prove any guilt. A documentary I would recommend if you want to know more about this is named Square One.
I wonder if Michael ever got to see this movie since it was released when he was alive… I’m surprised that he didn’t sue VH1 because that movie is just foul.
He did and HATED it💀
“I’m not sure much people who are under 20 know how big michael jackson was” oh I can assure you, we know. At least I know. I, like you, was absolutely OBSESSED with the man from ages 2-7, mostly because he was my parents favourite when they were growing up in the 80s, and so I was raised on him too. He died when I was 3, and I have a vivid memory of my uncle breaking the news only for my dumb little ass to go “No!! He’s not dead!! See??? He’s in the TV!!” And then putting on remember the time. Only to be devastated a few years later when I realized that yes, he was indeed dead
I'm 33 and the closest I came to being a Michael Jackson "fan" is liking Free Willy as a little kid.
When I was somewhere around middle school I became aware of the allegations against him because of all the inappropriate jokes around him.
When I was in high school one of those cases went to trial and I remember a friend's parent talking about it at the dinner table, saying he most likely did it and explaining the victim to abuser cycle that happens with some victims.
Years later I saw Leaving Neverland and went from "I think he probably did it" to "I definitely think he did it and it's wild to me that we're not all mostly on the same page about it."
I'm with you. I'm a somewhat later millennial (born in early-mid 90s) and I loved Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5 as a kid and saw the entire media spectacle and accusations play out in real time as a teen. Now as an adult, I'm of the mind that he probably did do something to one of the kids. Jackson and his siblings were abused by their father horrifically. Not an excuse at all, but research shows that those who are abused do often end up becoming abusers themselves due to unaddressed trauma. To me, it all points to something likely happening.
But I'm also aware that there were and are likely many who wanted to exploit the controversy for private gain. Seeing as I can't tell who's doing or did what, I've personally decided to just acknowledge that he's a tragic and controversial figure who made music I love and who holds a crucial spot in African-American history as being a true global icon, right up there with the in his own way controversial Jordan. I don't rep him, but I will bop to his music if it plays.
Yeah, I just can't imagine why 2 separate men would go on camera and make an incredibly long, sad accounts of a man they loved as children who thoroughly groomed and sexually abused them...and that to be a lie. Sorry, I can't. Especially when the man is dead and they have nothing to gain realistically by doing so. Leaving Neverland is devastating. I can't imagine someone fabricating these stories in a way that rings so true to how child grooming works and gradually escalates, and I don't doubt their emotional reactions on camera are real. There's people all over this comment section essentially saying they must be lying, because MJ is innocent, but that's one hell of a thing to say if you've seen their accounts. I think it's completely normal and healthy to be conflicted, he's maybe the poster example of a star with a complex legacy.
@@aeddiefarmer they are lying. it’s very easy to make a lie believable if u sprinkle truths in there. wade and james want money. there’s a reason they are constantly going in and out of court trying to sue for large amounts of money. Leaving Neverland is nothing more than a pedophilic fantasy that goes on for 4 hours. there are SO many inconsistencies in that film that have been brought to light. also what emotion was shown? i watched the same film and not an ounce of expression was on their face other than when they were talking about their fathers. anyone who knows even the slightest bit about csa can also create a story that “adds up”.
@@tyraalleyne4975 to someone outside the situation and without strong feelings on Michael either way, that sounds insane.
@@aeddiefarmer even Dan reed stated that it’s just for money also the stories of them doesn’t add up and they keep changing them please watch square one or lies of leaving neverland because those documentaries explain really well that the accusations are based of nothing but lies
@@bradwhatareyagonnado8259 I've noticed the people in the comments who know the court cases inside out and know what the director Dan Reed has said in interviews and on twitter are saying he's innocent. I don't know why people refuse to research all the background information before talking about something serious as SA allegations...
So, I'm 26 and have a major conflict of emotions towards Michael. I LOVED him as a kid, but I never really knew how to react to any of his scandals. Much like the R Kelly situation, it felt like all the allegations were being taken lightly and just being swept under the rug.
Nope. They were taken very seriously. He was photographed nude, under FBI surveillance for over a decade, and had his house searched multiple times. All of that and some more happened and he was still found innocent
@@leatom1333 he wasn't found innocent, he was acquitted, very different things
@@leatom1333 I know overall they were taken seriously, I meant by the public. You see all these headlines about allegations of misconduct with a minor, and people just made jokes about Jesus juice instead of actually focusing on the issue.
@@idilkaraali Found innocent. Period. There is no discussion
@@tia725 How old are you? You must be very young
I’m 36 years old, used to have the biggest crush on Michael Jackson when I was younger and definitely believed he was innocent up until I watched Leaving Neverland. I had this idea in my head of money hungry parents coaching their children to lie because I just couldn’t understand how any parent would allow their children to spend intimate time alone with an alleged abuser unless they were trying to win a lawsuit. But watching the documentary as an adult and having the sad understanding that many parents put their children knowingly in dangerous situations and not even for being star struck by a superstar like MJ. There was something so vulnerable and honest in the way the survivors spoke about their relationship with MJ that I could see the reflection of my experience and the experience of so many other survivors in it and it rang true to me. That tug of war between wanting to stand in your truth and wanting to protect your abuser hit to close too home. Whew! I could talk about it all day chile. Thanks for doing this segment!
He’s not an abuser though? The parents were indeed money hungry.
@@jeffisjeff5511 the truth of the matter is there is no way for us to actually KNOW. you do not know him. you do not know those children. you were not there. you are allowed to feel how you feel about him but you have to leave room for the possibility because anything else is honestly delusion.
@@treasurerox well no one was truly there but based on accounts not on media he was innocent. Believe it or not but with evidence sometimes it can be pretty accurate like that case with the girl with a running app and the detectives got how she reacted correct based on evidence. Isn’t that like so cool?
@@jeffisjeff5511 okay? he was there. the people who accused him were there. sometimes there is no concrete evidence, doesn’t mean it never happened tho. anything else is speculation based on personal feelings.
@@treasurerox no like I said and I’ll say it again they didn’t have proof against him being a SA and therefore he isn’t one. I’ll say this again it’s innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent.
I’d always had a cursory interest in Michaels music from when I was little. I was 8 when the 93 allegations surfaced, and I was too young to understand exactly what was going on. Then the Bashir interview came out and throughout I just kept shaking my head at some of the things I saw Michael doing. Then along came Leaving Neverland and I decided it was high time o did my research. Now I personally believe the allegations just aren’t credible. We will never know for sure. All I will say though is fact checking can certainly help. Btw great review of a dreadful movie !!!
As a younger person who only really knew about Michael Jackson after he died, my only real thoughts as a kid was a lotta confusion because for some reason I spent way too long thinking he was a woman not a man? Not really sure why or how, I thought he was a pretty lady who made interesting music
Sad...
I am young and only knew about MJ towards the end of his life and tbh for most of my life all I thought about when I thought about him was his court trials and MAYBE one or two of his songs. I didn’t realize how big and influential he was until I got older.
I'm 23 and you made me feel old 💀
I’m 24. I watched a lot of stuff go down as a kid and when I got older I wanted to read for myself. I read the cases in college because I was studying law and forensics at the time. People have their opinions on whether or not he did it but what remains is that he was raided, and followed my Santa Barbara PD, LA PD, and the FBI. The FBI Followed and investigated him well after the 2005 trial ended (their entire investigation was released in 2013 and online it’s very…VERY long). They also investigated everyone involved in the latest controversy (a lot of info they left out in that doc). Either our criminal justice system played around with this man and those claiming he did something to them than doing their job for years or someone is lying. No way that man gets investigated multiple times, thrown in jail, locked in the bathroom while in jail, all to be found not guilty in all counts including misdemeanors, to have 2 individuals actually come forward 10 years later to say uhhh hey yeah I took the stand and lied (perjury) he did it 😂😂😂😂😂
They lied?! That's so messed up. Poor guy
@@TinV I’m just going to say this…don’t take my word for it, read. Read and read and read some more on these cases. There’s a reason why In the middle of the doc they were trying to Sue MJ’s estate for what it’s worth (billions) all while releasing this doc. Wade Robson was one of the biggest choreographers at one time using Michael’s name testifying in his defense then later saying yeah Michael called me and told me to tell the court he didn’t abuse me. Not only is he admitting to perjury but Michaels job as the person on trial is to sit and be quiet. What Wade is insinuating is something that could have gotten the entire trial thrown out and Michael moonwalking to jail immediately. It’s A LOT they don’t tell because they know the public doesn’t know.
I just turned 25 and I absolutely LOVED Michael Jackson as a child. My mom had a dvd of his number one hits music videos, and I watched it all the time learning his choreography. I was (and still am) a fan of his music, like it honestly makes me happy to listen to. But, I do feel conflicted because I don’t know how to feel about him as a person. The allegations have never sat well with me. Abuse/SA is such a serious, painful, life-altering thing that should NEVER be taken lightly. Michael was severely abused growing up, which explains his strange behaviors. I do remember seeing a clip years ago about him saying he needed help dealing with his pain from his childhood, but it seems like no one took that seriously (I don’t think he was seeking that out for himself either). And if someone had been genuinely looking out for him, I don’t think any of this would have happened
I’m 18 & I definitely was apart of the “he’s innocent” due to me being young and not wanting to see my idol in that type of light. However, at this point I’m with you regarding being conflicted by the entire situation since nothing was ever settled. Also, if there are more documentaries please let me know!
That 27 moment was felt as someone who turned 27 in October and felt pain of what felt like old age 😂
I absolutely get your complicated feelings. I’m 21, and I was 9 when he died. I was also a huge fan of Michael when I was younger. When leaving Neverland came out, I was even more conflicted. There were so many opposing opinions online. I didn’t know how to feel. It absolutely made sense that the victims, at such a young age at that, wouldn’t admit or even be aware of SA by someone they idolized. It also makes sense that they’d want compensation for that and to have their stories told. And that it is just flat out inappropriate to be that close to kids that are no yours. Then there’s another side that, where there’s actual proof of inconsistencies in one of the recent accusers stories. Specifically the train account of abuse, the train wasn’t even built when he knew Michael. And that there’s an actual recording of the first accusers father saying he would extort Michael (although that’s not hard proof that Michael didn’t do it, just shitty parents) and the interviewer who did the Michael interview admitted that he manipulated the interview to make him look weird after he died. all in all, idk how to feel. Especially since he’s passed since this happened, there’s no real way to really get to the truth. I can’t listen to his music anymore……
I would suggest that you watch loving Neverland
@@myaco6430 Danny Wu wasn’t sued... I don’t know where you got that from.
@@rachaelmonet5168 I’m talking about Dan reed. Not sure where you got Danny wu from…..
@@myaco6430 The person suggested you watched Loving Neverland not Leaving Neverland lol. Loving Neverland is a completely different thing. 💕
@@rachaelmonet5168 oh my bad, thought it was a typo sorry lmao
Okay so I’m 26 and honestly, THIS!!! I haven’t been able to articulate how my feelings aligned in regards to Michael but this hit the nail on the head. I grew up with him too, and definitely had thriller memorized lol
THE QUEEN IS BACK I REPEAT THE QUEEN IS BACK HALLELUJAH 🙇
Why do I have a very specific memory of being at a BBQ hosted by my parent's friends in the early 2000's and watching snippets of this on their TV in the finished basement with the other kids who were bored out their minds?
I've actually never pressed on a video faster. I'm about to be 24 and I have deeply complicated feelings about Michael in that way that Kennie articulated. I think because he's gone, I can box the complicated feelings away when I want to enjoy his music or videos but it always comes back
I'm gonna share my MJ fan story just because Kennie did, too.
I had a history of listening to MJ with my Mom, my Dad showed me the Thriller music video when I turned 5 (wtf man, I was a kid!?) and scarred me for lyfe! I found out MJ died and since then I couldn't listen to any of his songs without crying hysterically and feeling like I was being chased like in a horror game (idk where it came from, but it was intense. I remember running away from someone listening to Billie Jean because I couldn't take it lmao).
We skip a few years ahead, my Mom and I watched Guardians of the Galaxy and I kept rambling about how great the soundtrack was (honestly, it's gold). I ended up memerizing the tracklist by heart as I listened to it on repeat until my Mom told me about how The Jackson 5 actually have more great songs than I Want You Back. We then watched the This Is It dvd we bought for a friend years ago, who already owned that one, so we just ended up keeping it ourselves and never really caring about it until that moment.
Fast Forward to 5th grade, my Mom bought THE EXACT SAME DVD SET KENNIE WAS TALKING ABOUT WITH ALL THE VIDEOS (it's so cool! And it's defintely the reason that made me write all of this)! I found a biography called Remember The Time in a book store and read it like the champ I am (pretty good book as far as I remember, it's been a while though). I was absolutely obsessed with MJ's music - and I even was on TV for like a minute, when I was interviewed on MJ's 60th birthday in 2018 in front of a local memorial.
Long story short: MJ is a great artists on many levels and his art definitely brings people together - however there are some conversations to be had about how we should always seperate the music from the artist (atleast in my opinion - concerning all of the other drama).
Thanks for reading, I wanna hear y'all's stories, as well!
I do have to say that I love how Kennie can simultaneously talk about being an MJ fan while also not immediately rushing to decry all the allegations against him.
I was 11 when he died and I remember like waking up from a nap and they were playing a marathon of his videos on VH1, that's when I found out. afterwards everyone at my school, myself included, had a Michael Jackson obsession phase over his music. but still, I feel like even at 11 the conflicting feelings of how to feel about him were there. it was a weird time.
Latoya was being forced by her abusive husband to say Michael did those things. Her husband used to beat her to get her to say her father touched her as a child, to get nude for playboy, and to write a book about everything he wanted her to say. It’s very sad her story. She has never truly recovered from him.
Wait why did her husband want Latoya to say all these untrue things about her family? Also did she ever come out and say that all the things she said were fake accusations
@@blacklungsanji3 Yes, czcams.com/video/Z8d4M3SRRYE/video.html
You had the exact same experience with MJ as I did. I’m 25 and I loved him as a kid but once I got older (around my mid-teens) and I looked back on it with the allegations buzzing around my head, I became uncomfortable. I don’t know how to feel now. In general I avoid all MJ related stuff just because he makes me too uncomfortable. Like a grown man sharing a bed with children is just too weird for me to tolerate
I will say i dont think its just a coincidence that mj attracts children. All children love being around him if you watch videos of him and lisa marie presley on vacation her kids cried over who would do stuff with mj and competed for his attention. You wouldnt be avle to grasp that until you see videos like that for yourself so the idea of kids fighting to stay in his room with him seems unrealistic until you actually see it on video of kids fighting to stay by his side.
Kids can sense energy i have never heard of children being attracted to a predator.
one thing abt kennie ... she’ll be able to flawlessly balance comedy and serious conversations , so i’d like to put in my two cents . i’m 18 , n much like so many of us in this comment section , i fell for michael’s music hard n fast at around 8 years old . he was the first musician i was ever attached to just because of how much i admired his music . i was introduced to him by my dad , who also loved michael . what kennie said perfectly represents my own thoughts and feelings about mj now 100% . i myself have flip flopped between “he didn’t do it!” and “i can’t believe he did it.” over the years , but what i’ve been thinking the past few months/year was described rlly well by kennie . we really will never know for sure . although i’m not as attached to michael anymore , i still listen to his music with some layer of haunting doubt . i become really excited and just overall really happy whenever someone talks about him , but i’m aware enough to know that the possibility of his allegations being true is a reality . it’s this really ... unsettling , uneven , conflicting coexistence .
i did not know this movie existed & Kennie as much as i love you i feel it’s only fair i suggest you add 2021 movie “Wolf” to your watch list as retribution for this movie now being ingrained into my brain😂 the movie “Wolf” is about a boy with “species dysmorphia” (i’ve never heard of this so idk if it’s an actual thing) who feels he is a wolf in the body of a human & falls in love with a girl who also has species dysmorphia in this “institution” that will supposedly help people. FUN FACT: the trailer was an ad on Wattpad🙃 it looks to be of good quality & interesting camera work (good or bad, that is for you to decide😂) MISSED YOU KENNIE💚💚
I'm pretty sure it is a real thing and also people who have a living dysmorphia (cant remember what its actually called) are also real where they think they are dead and their body is decaying away and that they are living zombies.
@@kathleenbielecki6814 really ?? that’s actually very interesting, i’ve seen reference to species dysmorphia twice now. Hannibal had an episode where someone had it. i think they had an episode showing an example of the living dysmorphia as well. thanks for letting me know😊
@@wetsockfullofhotmeat Thank you!
To this day I can't watch One on One and not think of this..😩
Oh hello, hi, I'm on my umpteenth rewatch of this playlist.
When I was 7 (in the year 2000), my teacher got the kids in my class to say their favourite musician when she got to our name during roll call. When it was my turn, I said my favourite musician was Michael Jackson. The entire class burst out laughing, including the teacher. TO THIS DAY I have no idea why they found that so funny.
Strangely enough, I have no memory of finding out about 9/11, despite being 8 when it happened. I guess it just hit way bigger in the US than in NZ (where I'm from). Anyway, I'm going to hell with you, Kennie 😂 That cutaway was objectively hilarious.
Additionally, I was 15 when MJ died. Despite him having been my favourite musician as a kid, I kind of didn't feel much when I heard. I think I was just not very surprised. But I remember my high school being abuzz with the news the day it broke.
I'm 26 and my parents LOVED MJ, my dad even went to one of his concerts first row. His music was very prevalent in my home. I remember all the news coverage and cases but I didn't understand it because i was a kid myself, but as I grew older I became kind of conflicted when I wanted to enjoy his music. It was the first time I had to deal with the "separate artist from the art" dilemma, normally I would just cut the artist from my life but he was very prevalent in mine it became hard to do so. When the HBO doc came out I remember listening to a podcast and they said that with MJ this kind of thing was different because of how massive he was, like you said, he was bigger than life itself. So we had to separate the man from the star, what he achieved in music and how he changed pop music is more of like a idea (?) than a person. The man was very different from the idea we as a public had created, and as individuals we should figure how to deal with those feelings and opinions ourselves. I personally separate the music from the human when it comes to MJ, I still listen to it when I am nostalgic for my childhood and my dad, but I won't ever discredit victims' claims.
Pleaseeeeeeee roast the absolute fuck out of that Aaliyah movie that nobody wanted in the first place. That would make my year. Please! I mean I love Alexandra Shipp to death but that movie sooooo trash.
Flex Alexander gave ya girl nightmares for days as a kid after seeing him in that pasty ass MJ makeup. This was the stuff nightmares are made of😂
The thing that kills me is that they didn’t even TRY w the makeup like-
@@kirsten7561 They just slapped some makeup on and said this is just gonna have to do smh.
@@M3Niki the fact that they only used party city face paint is sick😭
“flex washington in shironuri” killed me thank you
The way I vividly remember watching this in my great grandmother’s house thinking “oh” and then never having a single thought about it again.
I remember there was a far more superior made for tv movie called The Jacksons: An American Dream. Id recommend watching that one. It's not the best. But the man the casted for Michael was great.
It was sad that the actor died young
@@KaileChanté I didn't even know he passed. What a bummer.
I couldn't remember tye name of this movie, but I watched it like a hundred times cuz I had a HUGE crush on Jason Weaver who played the young pre-teen Micheal
He was casted very well, he looked almost just like him. They did Jackie dirty tho
No we haven’t dismantled fame. The only difference is regular people with a smart phone, and basically no real talent can be as equally famous as a person who is actually talented and famous for those talents.
I mean, we have definitely been thinking more about fame and parasocial relationships. Probably because fame is more accesible now,;we can't just dehumanize so many people. I do think we are slowly dismantling it...
We haven’t dismantled fame. If anything, it’s only been increased and peoples’ thirst for it has also been increased. Stan culture is so freaking crazy and toxic at this time. I don’t remember it being like this before.
@@iammar1159 agreed. we also can't dismantle fame because it's a huge part of what keeps capitalism going.
@@iammar1159 I think fame has become more frequent, but less dehumanizing. Probably because through YB and Social Media we've started understanding famous ppl are just humans.
As for Stan culture, I think idolizing is still dehumanizing. But I don't think idolizing is as horrible as paparazzis and magazines constantly abusing and harassing without repercussion. This sense of loyalty stans have is toxic, but I don't think it's dangerous. (I'm not defending stan culture. I do think we have progressed tho)
And the fact that the word 'parasocial' has become so popular shows that we are having the conversation
I'm 17 and I wasn't aware he was dead when I was younger, so around a year after his death he was my imaginary boyfriend. And I was obsessed with all of his music. I would make my parents do the Just Dance with me and I knew every lyric to every song. Because I didn't understand who he was when he was alive.
I ended up not really feeling comfortable with any of his music past like 12-13? As I got older and I learned more about him, it got weirder to hear it. It also kinda messed up my perception of imaginary friends because you know, a guy who had CSA allegations as a toddler's imaginary boyfriend is fucking weird.
He's kinda like a myth to me. It's like talking about 9/11. I wasn't there for it and I don't get it, but it's still very weird and very upsetting and a lot of people older than me have harder opinions on it than I do because they experienced it. He was a person who did things, and I wasn't around for it, so I dunno how to feel about it.
I remember seeing bits and pieces of this movie on E! as a kid and always thought that's who made the movie. But now to learn that this was VH1's doing makes so much sense. Also, my first memory of Michael Jackson was watching him dance on the roof of an SUV on CNN. 😂