Why would I want two RO membranes instead of one? | BRStv Investigates
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- Check out 150GPD upgrades here! brs.li/150gpd_U...
Today on BRStv, we have a brand new episode for our series, BRStv Investigates. In this series we explore popular reefing theories, products, methods, and what the manuals are missing, with a focus on putting them to the test!
We put some testing and numbers behind a single DOW Filmtec 75gpd RO Membrane versus the BRS 150GPD Upgrade Kit with two DOW Filmtec membranes and see just how much of an upgrade it is! Along with that, Ryan explores the differences between plumbing multiple membranes in series or parallel and the results are pretty surprising!
So, kick back and enjoy today's episode and don't forget to head over to Reef2Reef.com to join the community in a deeper conversation about this topic!
See you next time on BRStv Investigates, where we try to help make reefing a bit more fun and easy!
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The purpose and content of this video is to provide general information regarding the products and their applications as presented in the video. Aquatic Sales Solutions, Inc. and its officers, directors, employees and agents disclaim all express or implied warranties, in any way, related to the products and their application as presented in this video, make no representation or warranty regarding the products and the application as presented in this video and shall not be liable for any direct or indirect losses or damages of any type, including but not limited to punitive damages, or from personal injury or death resulting from or in any manner related to the video, and the products in and contents of the video. The viewer expressly agrees that Aquatic Sales Solutions, Inc. and its officers, directors, employees and agents shall not be liable for any damages or losses related to the products in and content of the video and hereby agrees to hold the foregoing harmless from any such losses or damages.
It's so nice to understand how and why our equipment works instead of just plugging it in and hoping it's everything it's advertised to be. These videos say a lot about how confident you are in your products and the reason so many keep coming back. Well done!
what if I used 3 membranes? Would I go insane in the membrain?
Jerome Saverimuttu 😂😂😂😂 you have earned this "W" ✊🏾
if pressure is a issue on the third just install a electric pump ,mad scientist style
Make sure you use a pump without bypass or use 3/8 tubbing at least around the pump. No, you wouldn't, but you will definitely need to install an autoflusher or solid-state timer+solenoid combo to flush pre-use.
Jerome Saverimuttu insane in the brain
I run 4, looks like a water plant to run my whole city
Loved the video. I installed double membranes in series after seeing this video. I had an RO system for many years and loved the taste of filtered water, but was feeling guilty in wasting so much water. This is a perfect solution! Thank you so much for sharing this! I can have water I love without the guilt!😅.
I've got one of these kits. I wouldn't run a large tank without one just for the time savings alone. I can fill my 5 gallon ATO bucket in under an hour. I love it!
Love these videos and the work you put into it. Makes learning so much easier and without the trial/error/extra costs.
This is a really, really BRILIANT Idea. The ready-made home RO filters do not provide 2 membranes as it might jack up the cost. But from the pt of view of saving reject water and getting faster output, this is a very useful tip. I shall try this some time some, subject to space restriction within the filter body.
Love your guys videos, could watch these over and over because it seems like I learn something new every time i watch them, keep up the good work!!
I've had a BRS 75 GPD water filter for over 5 years and just got the 150GPD upgrade. I have never regretted purchasing it. It does cost more than a lot of the others but it's very well made and you have many upgrade options open to you should you decide to stay in the hobby.
You folks just get better and better at providing excellent information. Much appreciated!
Have been using RO units for past 40 years for my orchids, have long thought series units would work but never got round to trying it, many thanks for this remarkanble well explained presentation and the very easy to understand chart.
In your test for the parallel and the seres connections. what if any flow restrictor/s did you use?
Hi everyone, so yesterday I set up the dual RO/DI system as Ryan has described. It was very straight forward and went together great, being an old saltwater fish-keeper (20 years ago) I had a good Idea what was required.
After doing the dual RO build I installed the booster pump (new item) immediately before the first RO, I then installed the pressure switch (new item) on the product line, after that I installed the auto flush valve (new item) to the waste line.
I installed the DI resin kit so it was before the Pump and after all the other filters prior to the membranes.
I installed a TDS meter probe on the incoming water line near the sediment filter and one on the product line leaving the last filter. My TDS fluctuates quite a lot, my reason for placing it where I did.
Finally I installed a pressure gauge after the pump and before the first membrane. So I could monitor the pressure prior to the first membrane.
TDS in fluctuates between 123 up to about 195, TDS reading on the product line has remained 000's.
I filtered about twenty gallons of water yesterday evening after the build inclusive of a flush of five gallons prior to the product run, which leads me to this question.
I used a complete filter cartridge of DI in the process, that created a deep intake of breath, had I done something wrong cause that is expensive water? I plan to install a bypass for the DI section as I also store RO for drinking in the kitchen and bathrooms. All comments will be appreciate, thank you.
I do think the water should go by the Di last after both membranes .
I am always amazed at the detail and extra efforts, you go through to help your customers. There doesn't seem to be any questions too hard or research too difficult to solve your customer's questions and meet their needs, which keeps you on the high level of your profession; therefore, I continually wish you the best in your business and for your continued success . . . for good businesses with high work ethics are becoming fewer and fewer to find.
could you get this to work with a 3rd membrane?
Where I live the tapwater is so hard it tries to fight you when it comes out of the tap!
Added the upgrade right before I filled my 120g... def was smartest move I've made. 16hrs to fill I call that a win! 👍🏾
Did you buy a booster pump?
You guys really need to do this same test with a Booster pump, boosting the pressure to 80-90 PSI.I believe both your dual membrane configurations would perform better and might actually have drastically different results.
Can you guys make a video of where and how to start dosing in a reef aquarium? Also what will be the difference of dosing in a nano and in a bigger system.
Ahh thanks. But I was wondering if you can do another one for like people like my self that has never dosed. also in using other dosing stuff not only two part.
Excellent video! How did you measure the water flow rate (ml/min) for the product flow and waste flow?
I want something like that to monitor usage of my filter cartridges.
Using the BRS 150 gpd with auto flush, and the booster pump, I typically get 5 gallons of RO or RO/DI in 31 minutes with a TDS of 1-0. This is great when you consider my tap water TDS measures around 360 to as high as 620!
With the booster pump, I achieve a psi of 90 to 98, depending on variables. it's tempting to make my water for the tank with RO water however I've not done so (if it ain't broke, don't fix it!).
dude, this video is AMAZING. THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You guys are really amazing!!I am recently thinking of this problem and you just did a very detail comparison to me. THANKS A LOT!
Beautiful beautiful beautiful test !!! Thank you very much!
Love both of my 150 gal BRS RODI units. I will be doing a video soon on your booster pump and RODI unit.
I freakin' love this channel!!!!
I had a think about this after seeing your video and mentioned to my LFS here in the UK. They advised against as they explained the waste water from the first membrane will be of a much higher concentration of contaminants so the second membrane is really going to have its work cut out and likely reduce the quality of the overall mix. Has anyone had a TDS meter on the output from the 2nd membrane to see what the output is like?? Keen to install if it's a genuine help but this just gave me second thoughts....
Hi thanks for the reply, I'm brand new to reefing and your videos have been an incredible help to date! I re-watched the video and makes perfect sense now so think I will go for it as I'm not entirely comfortable with the waste water i'm generating. My only issue is going to be my water pressure... right now I achieve around 35-40psi which is far too low so will need to invest in a booster pump. I see they come in different sizes 50/75/100 GPD etc. Presumably if my current unit is a 50GPD and I'm adding another 50GPD membrane in the series formation, I need to get a 100GPD pump? Or does the pump need to be rated for the membrane i.e. would a 100GPD pump going into a 50GPD membrane put too much pressure through the first membrane and damage it?
Thanks for your help, much appreciated!
As always a very informative video. I'm happy to see that the dual membrane system is effective, because there is a lot of misinformation out there in the cyberforum world.
Great test and information! Thank You!!!!!!
Very informative. Thanks!
Best tip i have seen, totally makes sense, this should be the the new standard. question what about installing a filter in between the r.o. as to increase the seconds life? maybe dumb maybe overkill maybe a pressure issue idk?would a permeate pump somehow help or work?
I have the brs 4-stage watersaver+ 150gpd unit. I added a second 3-way TDS meter on it so now it has 5 readouts. It's totally overkill, but now I can see input, and post-sediment tds. May do the membranes separately some day too. I later upgraded it with the smartbuddie booster pump which has autoflush too. My incoming pressure was like 46-47 before and now it's almost 90 with this thing. Supposedly, according to some amazon reviewer, their 6 stage watersaver+ did over 250gpd with 1:1 waste with this same smartbuddie pump. I'd be curious to see how these things perform with/without pumps, different flow restrictors, 4 vs 6 stage, etc.
Also, I have a suggestion for you guys. I bought a set of lamotte strips to see if i had chloramines or not before I bought my unit. Fortunately for me I do not so I bought the 4 stage (in fact incoming TDS is 34! HAH!.) Which, of course, includes...another set of lamotte test strips. Just seemed funny to me to include them after-the-fact. You should do some kinda promotion where you send people strips ahead of time and they commit to buying the 4 or 6 staged based on the chloramine result or something.
Hey, I do remember that video, but yeah as you say - it's limited in what it tests, and only tests one style rodi etc...
you'd almost have to do the test at different input TDS levels, hah. I don't even know how you'd pull that off. would most definitely be interesting to see like how a RODI performs with TDS at @ like 50, 100,150, 200, 400, 600, kinda thing! My TDS is like 35-40. It's hard to get much lower than that, I think I'm pretty lucky.
Great to know things like this... very educational.
Excellent excellent video, couldn't say it better!! I did that a while ago and it does work!!
Thanks for this great clarifications brother. We have 780-800ppm water here so I wonder: Can i connect 2 membranes in series from the clean side instead of the waste water? Do I need a second pump between them?
Just ordered a second membrane!
Thank you for the video. I am dealing with 750mg/L source TDS and have been giving a couple different solutions. Having purchased the 200G Water Saver, BRS told me to just bypass the 2nd membrane because of the concentrated TDS feeding into that 2nd membrane. Another company told me to run their 100gpd membranes in parallel with the waste restrictor wide open. Seems like there is no ideal solution and I just need to pick the lesser of evils for my scenario.
Source water TDS that high is certainly a challenge. Running a single membrane is usually the best option for source water above 350 TDS or so. Running an RO system with no restriction on the waste line seems like a poor option as it will not only significantly increase the amount of waste water you're producing, but also slow down the speed at which the RO/DI system is producing water.
i think you are wrong about so something if you have really dirty water, running them in series is not the worst option... its the best option.. just connect the 2nd filter with the clear instead of the waste line and reduce the flow rate of the first waste restrictor so you get enough pressure. (Or just connect the 2 waste water lines in front of the restrictor) should make you end up with a higher waste water ratio...but really clean water.
Outstanding work here, well done.
Do I need to be a reefer? I have been thinking to do this for makeup water to my pool and here you are!
Because you watched a lot of Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor as a child... 😆
question. so no flow restricter after first membrane for waste water conected to the second membrane?
This would be one of the other benefits of a series RO. Only one flow restrictor inline. The membrane needs to be operated at a certain pressure so having the flow restrictor at the end will maintain that pressure across both membranes.
Thank you so much 💗👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻🌹🌹🌹
Does anyone have plans/diagrams for a dual RO series setup ? Surprisingly difficult to find on the Internet ...
But if that auto flush kit is running every 15 minutes, that’s going to deplete the sediment and carbon blocks and still waste water.
I had one installed on my system, which is one 75 gallon per day membrane and I also had a pump. The auto flush did something to the hydraulic valve of the system where the pump would just keep running endlessly and not completely fill the tank. I don’t know what other peoples experiences have been with the auto flush
but it just did not work for me in a single membrane set up.
For some reason I thought running the membranes in series meant the product water from the first would run through the second membrane further cleaning the product water. But for my application, 2 TDS going into the DI is still more than ideal.
I could see why you'd think that. Hopefully this video cleared up any confusion 🙂
I would be interested to see a cost analysis on this. I know that you will be saving money on Sediment, Carbon, and water, but adding cost on more expensive items such as DI media and RO cartridges. Would you really be saving money in the long run?
I agree, but I think in most cases it would be incredibly cheaper to just go with a single membrane.
Where would i install a Permeate pump on this system? Before or after the second membrane?
My incoming TDs is anywhere from 650 to 1000, but I have a private well and don't pay by the gallon like those with City water do. What do I do in this case to optimize my setup?
would it be cheaper and easier to use one 150 GPD membrane instead of two 75 GPD membranes?
Double thumbs up! I love my water saver setup.
Did you do this test with a booster pump? Any numbers? Would a third membrane triple the numbers, or would it reach a point of diminished returns?
Also curious
Another great idea !!! Very intersting
I did it in series and it's much faster making water and less waste
Well explain.
Do you need 2 flush valves for both membranes
Awesome... thank you !!
I have a 400gpd system running with a booster pump. I want to add a second membrane, do I need to upgrade the pump as well, or can i still use the 400gpd pump?
Thank you. your answer had left me mitre confused than before. What do I need to look for in the wiring and what considerations do I Need to make? I can't get any help from them as they are in germany and the support is not the best. it's the vertex delux 200 g per day model. anyways keep Up the fantastic videos. you guys are loved in the uk.
How can the 'waste water' be used in, for example, a garden so as to NOT be 'wasteful'. Note: the price of water in my area varies around 1 to 2 cents per gallon, depending on the amount used. Which at 200+ 'waste gallons' per day is $2 to $4 PER DAY, or about $60 to $120 per month!
Most often, we've seen reefers use the waste water to water plants or even fill up their washing machine.
hi Ryan. i have the vertex dulux 200 gal per day. this had two membranes in parallel. I'm thinking of conveying this to a series however will this not affect the auto flush feature?
If my TDS is reading 1ppm how do I know that it's not 1001ppm since there is only 3 numbers in the display?
You guys really have all the answers , thank you .
Apparently there are preservative chemicals on reverse osmosis membrains that can cause cancer and infertility! I've read that you really need to flush them good, But does that really do a good enough job? What are your thoughts on this and what would you recommend. Cheers mate.
are you supposed to run water through the RO membranes for a few hours beforw they are actually in use? To get rid of the chemicals on the filter?
I am interested in the conservation aspects of this duel membrane solution but concerned how it effects the membranes long term. There is some data here but no long term data on conservation of consumable membranes and resins if you go DI
what is your pressure system/source?
I'm running a 150 gallon a day membrane with a pressure pump, should I run an equal size membrane or downsize to a 100 gallon a day membrane
Excuse me, what is the required pressure to produce best?? Need to change pump?
higher pressure generally produces better rejection rates. The challenge is that higher pressure also increases the chance for a leak, so we generally advise staying below 90 PSI.
You might find this video helpful as well: czcams.com/video/X14cUW-DXbs/video.html
imo when You make one longer membrane of 2 times bigger working surface by connecting them in series You should give flow restrictor of 1000 minimum. That's why the ratio is nice because the first membrane works properly but the second works out of specs and is being flushed by concentrate not fresh water. The whole second membrane has worse working parameters not only tds but calcium and magnesium salts are more saturated and precipitate easier on second membrane. It mostly depends on water cost and quality - what is cheaper buying frequently a new second membrane or using less water in the desert :)...
BulkReefSupplyCom you are right but in this case runing paralel and giving them one 550 restrictor together gives the same results because the pressure rises in the membrane more tds passes trough, first 1/2 of both membranes represents first membrane in series and other parts 2nd one. In the end we get the same results but both membranes age in the same manner - faster in the 2nd halves :)
The correct measurement method would have been to put a pressure gauge before the restrictor and adjust the them in each case to reach the same pressure condition.
Hello, I could do with some help, I have a 300GPD Single Membrane I'm wanting to instal another membrane after it another 300GPD, I don't know if i can run the 1/4 Pipe to the second Membrane or if the pressure drop will be to high, alternative is change the fittings and have 3/8 tubing from the waste of first to second? Thanks Robert
is there an asymptote?? or 2 membranes in series in the 'magic' number.
is there a number of membranes in series, which at some point adding more membranes does nothing much (i.e., the gain you get is not worth it).
Great video Ryan. My TDS is about 50 and my output is 0. I am getting 60psi out of my system. Do you recommend the membrane upgrade? I have been considering it for a while and this video is convincing me to do so :-)
I'm OK with one or two membranes but I draw the limit at soaking PVC in RODI water overnight (saw that recently not here)! Its a resource intensive hobby. Let's not waste more than necessary. I have resolved to not kill another Mercedes worth of livestock this time...
can we install combination of 75GPD n 100GPD🤔
Do we need bigger pressure to install double membrane 100+100 GPD in series compared to single 100 GPD? Thank you
We suggest a minimum PSI of 50 PSI for a single membrane system and minimum 65 PSI for a dual membrane system.
@@BRStv Thank you for the reply, very appreciated 😄
If I have a 100gpd system, is simply upgrading the membrane to a 150gpd going to increase my out put? And what makes one membrane output more water than the other? Is one worse at filtering than the other?
This was not all the surprising, makes alot of sense . I am abouyt to upgrade m 100gpd to 200 gpd using the last method, I already autoflush using my apex system,, also do quick auto flush whilke making product water as well. I jsut need to test my PSI on main to see what I am at.
Ryan: You should add a booster pump to this test so see how it affects GPD, wastewater and product water,. should be an interesting test
Is it possible to put a display refugium/ sump on an all in one aquarium. How would you guys recommend doing it?
My water comes from a softener with a feed water TDS of 860 and high precipitation. Feed soft water’s TDS from the softener to the membrane is 871, however there is not precipitation when tested meaning is just sodium. I am looking for less than 10 TDS IN ORDER TO PRODUCE CRYSTAL ICE. Which set up do you recommend. Another question, is the transparency of the ice related only to TDS, I have a 45 TDS going to my fridge ice maker and is coming white in the center..many thx. Great job..!,
We've never done a test on ice, but would assume that 0 TDS water would result in clear ice. The RO membranes we sell have a rejection rate of up to 99%, so if you have source water TDS of 871, you can expect outcoming TDS to be as low as 8-9 TDS without the use of DI resin.
Hi guys, my is ready 3 years old I only change the 2 first cartridges carbon filter and the firth one but I never change the last on di and 75g I have 2 for 150gpd but my tds is cero and still not change color on di, I make only 5g por week I have 20g tank I don't really use to much water you still recommend change the di and 75g membri
Any comments on well water that is between 2900tds to 3000tds to bring it to a sub 100tds
I'm currently running a 150gpd RO with a 550ml flow restrictor. Want to install another 150gpd membrain in series. Can I use same 550ml Flow restrictor or do I need to move to an 800ml or 1000ml flow restrictor. With 1 150gpd RO and 550ml FR I'm getting about 1:3 producing 120gpd.
Short answer: we recommend an 800ml/minute flow restrictor.
Slightly longer answer: If you're running them in a water saver configuration (where the waste from the first is re-filtered through the next membrane), then you'll want to size the flow restrictor for the 150 GPD membrane. We usually recommend 800 ml/min flow restrictors for 150 GPD membranes.
your next video should compare an ati fixture's par to a sunblaze t5's par.
Hello to a question, is it better to connect membranes in series or in parallel? From what I understand, the most effective would be the one with the membranes in parallel only that I would have a greater waste, it's right, I got it right? With the connection in series, I go a bit 'to worsen the quality of water produced, I got it right?
Thank you
Sorry for my English..
if i am running a 300gpd ro with pump, can i add the spare 100gpd membrane that i have laying around to the waste outlet of the 300gpd , or would the one on the waste have to be 300gpd also ?
thank you
In the water saver configuration, you'd want both RO membranes to be the same GPD rating as they'll operate off of the same flow restrictor.
@@BRStv so would the 300gpd booster pump still be fine or need to upgrade to a 600..
So I run 77-80psi with a booster pump on the 150gpd kit. will that drastically change results? or will anything over 65psi run same results?
My TDS is 750 PPM. Can I produce almost DI quality water by taking the RO Product water (now about 75 PPM TDS) and running it through a second RO Unit to obtain about 8 PPM Product? Do you have a video on this?
Since RO membranes work based on pressure, you'd have to find a way to collect, then pressurize the water before pumping it through the second RO membrane.
In this dual RO configuration, I can install 1 RO flush kit? that means I would be only flushing 1 RO (the second one) ? I noticed in your video you only have 1 RO flush kit with the black color valve
Thanks for info !
Would adding a second membrane without a pressurebooster pump also work?
Wow, so decreased water pressure increases the waste to product ratio, I would've thought the opposite.
Unlike a DI filter (where the more time the water spends in contact with the resin, the better), the RO membrane needs good pressure to work efficiently.
Great info!
I have a membrane 100G, to do this double series, do i need a 50g membrane to get the 150g in total?. And wich one put first? Tks men for this video
BulkReefSupplyCom tks a lot for your response. Let me ask this... do you know how can I get hydrogen filters? Looking to get from -200 to -500 ORP.
Is this possible to do with 2 100gpd membranes? I have 70-80psi going into the membrane without a booster pump and currently use a 150gpd membrane.
Also, how would you manually flush the membranes before use? I have that pressure auto shut-off with float that you guys sell and I keep the valve to the DI closed so the flush water goes out the waste line and open the flow restrictor. But even then, I have to keep opening & closing the DI valve because too much pressure builds and it shuts off the water supply. How would I be able to flush both membranes when all the tds creep is being sent up to the second membrane? And then you can't use the auto shut off because you have 2 product water lines that can be joined, but would create a lot of pressure.
Guess I'll just stick with what I got, though I really would like to save half the waste water.
Can I do this with the Aquaticlife RO Buddie unit?
How do you flash the dual series ?
The pre-installed flush valve on our RODI units is all you need to flush both membranes. :)
how do some high capacity systems get 1:1 product to waste water ratio? what happens when you lower the waste water?
@@BRStv thanks. do you have a video on how to correctly size your waste flow restrictor?
wid two d same membrane which is better installation. paralle or series. thanks.
Hi :) Thanks for great material!
I'm thinking... if we would like both membranes work optimal, it shouldn't be the same. If second one is 75 gpd with 420 restrictor it means water consumption of this one is ~1,33 x 420 = ~560. But 560 "restrictor" fits 100-150 gpd membranes. It means, the first one shoul be this "size" - ~100 gpd or more.
Am I right? :)
If you're running two membranes in a water saver configuration, you'll want both membranes to be the same GPD rating. When set up this way, you'll only use one flow restrictor on the waste line of the second membrane.
@@BRStv I understand the concept of config very well :)
But i'm going further with it...
The second membrane needs a prper flow restrictor. It's obvious.
But for the first one the flow restrictor is not a real one flow restrictor. It's whole set of second membrane. The set has bigger flow than restrictor itself. It's the flow the second membrane TAKES :) So, for 75 gph second membrane has cosumption ~420 * 1,33 ccmph = ~560 ccmph.
560 ccmph is a proper flow restrictor for ~100 gph membrane. It means, if you use whole second membrane as a "flow restrictor" for the first one, the first one should has bigger efficiency than the second one.
Try to contemplate this, please :)
You didn't account for water temperature and it's affect on amount of water produced per hour. I've found cold water slows water production down.