5 Locomotives Cursed With Bad Timing | History in the Dark
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- Sometimes a great locomotive comes along, and even though everyone knows they're good, the timing is just bad. For one reason or another, they were before or after their time and never had a real chance to be truly successful.
0:00 - Intro
0:55 - Southern Pacific class GS-6
5:15 - South Australian Railways 740 class / Commonwealth Railways L class
7:48 - El Gobernador
12:20 - British Rail Class 14 TEDDY BEAR :DDDDD
16:20 - Ansaldo D.1511
🚂 Further reading 🚂
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souther...
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South...
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commo...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Gobe...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...
scalaenne.wordpress.com/2016/...
4460's Edgy Theme Song - • [Cyberpunk] Infraction...
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#trains #railfan #top5
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4449 is the Daylight and 4460 should be Moonlight or Midnight as a nickname whenever it gets restored
More like Dayman and Nightman like It's Always Sunny😂
Why not call 4960 the starlight because that's was the daylight trains might counterpart
Why not call 4960 the starlight because that's was the daylight trains might counterpart
Considering the whole "overshadowed" thing, this really gives me the Celestia and Luna vibe. 😂
I can see that. Pretty good idea.
Fun fact: El Gobernador is spanish for The Governor. This means that the English name of the Central Pacific 4-10-0 locomotive in the video is The Governor.
THE GOVERNATOR
TEDDY BEAR BACK!
😶
I think all of the late designs of steam locomotives can fit under this description, especially the BR standards as they sometimes got less than 10 years of service before being scrapped
Looking at the listing of locomotives, I can assure you that one of the Australian entries had it even worse, even compared to the BR standards.
Part of the problem for the BR Standards was the passing of the Clean Air Act 1956.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 The Clean Air Act 1956 was not really a problem for BR steam locomotives as dark smoke from steam engines burning good quality fuel is an indication of unburned fuel particles which BR trained their train crews to avoid to minimise such waste, and being powered by an external combustion engine they can use cleaner burning fuel with only a few minor modifications.
@@Alexander_C69 section 19 of the 1956 Act and Section 43 of the Clean Air Act 1993, which replaced the 1956 Act both address railway locomotives producing excessive smoke and require the owners to take all practical measures to prevent the production of excessive smoke. This means that steam locomotives were seen as an issue.. whilst training and good quality coal can reduce the likelihood of producing excessive smoke, the writing was on the walls. The days of the steam locomotive was over. It also resulted in the ignoring of the Modernisation Plan for dieselisation resulting in a lot of poor quality locomotives being purchased.
The acts also set up clean air zones were only smokeless fuels could be burnt. Coal is not such a fuel.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 Section 19 of the Clean Air Act 1956 was just an update of Section 19 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1868 and Section 114 the Railways Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845. It could be argued that was a liberalisation of the law as it changed it from an engine having to consume its own smoke to the owner having to minimise the emission of smoke from the engine though I argue that it meant the same thing just reworded to be in line with the legal language of the time.
Section 19 of the Clean Air Act 1956, unlike the locomotive smoke regulation that came before applied to all railway locomotives not just steam engines, the Clean Air Act 1956 removed all references to steam and interpreted chimney as including structures and openings of any kind from or through which smoke or grit or dust may be emitted.
Section 19 of the clean act 1956 made it clear that Smoke control areas do not apply to railway engines as it is not included in Section 1 or Section 19 of the Act. Anthracite, semi-anthracite coal and low-volatile steam coal are classed as smokeless fuels under the clean air act, and even if they were not it, a steam engine does not need that many modifications to allow it to burn other suitable smokeless fuels.
BR 9F belongs on this list. Magnificent locomotive that had a tragically short working life.
Honestly MOST of the Standards deserve to show up here
@@Ty-yt3lj Especially the Britannias and the Standard 5 4-6-0's, and possibly the Standard 4 2-6-0;s
Arguably the 9F was the best of the standard classes.
@@bitterdrinker Oh, definitely agreed, just that those three I mentioned were almost as good, and need recognition too (although, TBF, I have a funny feeling Josh has already done something on the Standards, so my opinion may be moot!)
@@robertwilloughby8050I don't think he has
A fun one for a part 2; The Victorian Railways R Class. I remember watching World Steam Today and learning that they were going to be used for mainline services, but dieselization pushed them to secondary routes & branchlines, plus seasonal grain traffic or just outright stored
You should write a book about all of these oddities, experiments, worst locos, and great locos. I've always been into locomotives ever since I was a child and have never heard of or seen some of the subjects in your videos so it's exciting to see and learn about something new. A coffee table book or something of the sort would definitely open my wallet.
GS-6 be likes: "when i was, a young girl, my fater, took mee to the station, to transport a marching band"
BOOOOM!!!!!!!
There we go!!!!!!!
Welcome back BR ❤❤❤❤❤
Excellent as always Sir Darkness 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Lets see what he's like when he sees the br
I love the GS6’s.
Glad to see more Australian locomotives on the channel. Keep up the good work
4:27 you have got to chill history in the dark. But not gonna lie black daylight sounds like a good horror movie.
Thanks for the inclusion of the 740 class in this video, I totally agree we need Aussie locomotives on this channel.
How about a list of future steam excursion stars? One of the least known examples is Southern Pacific 982. This 1919 Baldwin product was on display for nearly fifty years in various locations throughout Houston including Minute Maid Park (home of the Astros). The restoration is supposed to bring the engine to operational condition and has been in progress by the Texas Railway Preservation Association since 2019.
Two more to add the lner p2s and prr T1
I would include the GWR 1500 class. Though they were technically built under British railways, they were fantastic shunters which, due to the hasty replacement of steam a decade later, got very little time during their actual working lives. One exists in preservation today and is simply exceptional!
Im so glad that you talk about El Golbenator
The 4-10-0 wheel arrangement should've been tried again later, the only other 4-10-0 was an HO scale model made by John Allen for his famous model railroad named the Gorre and Daphetid (Gory and Defeated)
I believe it was abandoned because the addition of trailing wheels allowed for much larger fireboxes.
@@HistoryintheDark nah just a fear of similar issues. They figured 2-10-0s would have the same problems but became one of the most useful wheel arrangements in the world.
The Bulgarian state railway had a few 4-10-0 passenger locomotives in service. They were the class series 11
@@trainguy2155 interesting, I'll have to look them up.
Arguably Baldwin 60000 deserves a spot on this list. It was, like El Gob, a vanity project. Samuel Vauclain at Baldwin Locomotive Works was royally insulted when SP and UP went to Alco to build their 5000s and 8000s 3-cylinder 4-10-2s with Gresley conjugated motion after decades of Baldwin loyalty. 60000 was basically a Baldwin clone of the Alco 4-10-2s but with the experimental water tube firebox boiler and with double walsherts controlling the center third cylinder. It made several demonstration runs but nobody bought it. Special emphasis on the timing here you covered in your Lima Locomotive Works feature: the formula for superpower steam coinciding with the timing of the Depression really didn't give 60000 much of a chance.
i will say this: we italians always loved to experiment
also, pro tip: in italian railways the letter preceeding the number on a locomotive is generally the fuel type:
D. = diesel
E. = electric
ETR = fast electric train
Gr. = group (basically meaning "class") and was usually used for steam locomotives
Also, i will keep asking for you to talk about the Etr300 "settebello", please :)
That 740 class is a looker! What a shame none made it to preservation
Love the snarkeyness levels in this vids.
I think the reason you and others liked the Teddy Bears is because it exudes that Alco RS-1 vibe (the cab has a strong resemblance to an RS-1's).
I have no idea why, but the South Australian Railways 740 class 2-8-2s look almost American. Almost like an Australian version of a Southern Railway Ms class 2-8-2.
Most South Australian Steam Locomotives made after 1922 are American in design. American William Webb was the Chief Commissioner from 1922-1930.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Australian_Railways
4460 isn't forgotten. Once my company is off the ground, I plan to buy and restore the engine.
Good luck, St. Louis will likely just tell you to kick rocks.
@@mikehawk2003 money talks, bullshit walks.
I would like to join.
Good luck
Okay, what's the song/track that you used for that little GS-6 skit? That was a banger for the all of five seconds it played. XD
This: czcams.com/video/9Faz60vmPos/video.html
Poor El Gobernador, the most blursed Central Pacific loco (the 4-8-0s were insanley beautiful, way better than the 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s)
I'm Glad the GS-6s aren't extinct.
12:24 The lion's back
Is it strange that I’ve literally never seen 4449 but I have seen 4460?
There was a point of around 15 years where the 4460 was a more well known engine than 4449.
The BR Standards in general would make this list.
Did you know that Bulgarian built a few 4-10-0 passenger locomotives called the class series 11.
#3 “El Gobernador”. (Gub-er-na-dor)
I did spot a Teddy Bear on the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway, visiting as part of the KWVR Diesel Gala. I would blame Dr Beeching partially for the Teddy Bears' predicament
So, the continual loss of local freight work to the roads had nothing to with the Class 14's failure? A problem that started as far back as 1919.
I think El Gobernador's boiler is rumored to be used as fill
I be ridding on teddy bear next week at keighley and worth valley railway diesel gala its visiting from mid Norfolk railway
Poor Teddy Bear.
Have you ever considered a video featuring one off locomotives, an example could be Little River Railroad #110, custom built by Baldwin in 1911. She survives today in tourist service!
4:44 I need source for this interview I am disappointed they would rather restore 4460 rather than NKP 170
They considered her already, but her boiler is very thin and needs a complete replacement which is exceedingly expensive.
As an aside,the WP GS's had that unusual instance of the Wheel Arrangement,and road number were identical! Yes,there was a 484,on a 484! Just a small note! Thank you 😇 😊!
In Europe lots of EMU's and DMU's from several national railways were just coming into service in the late 30's.
When Germany for the second time got into occupying tourist mode across Europe all those singel and multiple electric/diesel units were sided and even scrapped for the wareffort.
Petrol and diesel were only available for the military and the overhead copper wires in Severe German tourist infected countries were cut to make shells.
After WW2, EMU and DMU's startet their exponentinal rise across Europs rail network.
75% of passenger trains are now EMU/DMU's
with the large cylinder at the top of the Ansaldo design my mind wasn't thinking diesel- my mind was thinking railway-mobile artillery piece
id argue the PRR T1 duplexes were cursed with pretty bad timing. the first production T1s arrived the very same day the first E-units arrived for the PRR. they were doomed from the start of their careers.
I think the NY Central S Class (Nagara) belonged here. The S-Class ranks #2 on my list of the finest steam locomotives ever built, but with Alfred "WHERE ... ARE ... THOSE ... STEAM ... ENGINES" Perlman at the helm, the Niagaras only got 7-8 years in service before they were all withdrawn and subsequently broken up for razor blades.
we shall nickname 4460 "THE GOTH TRAIN"
Unpopular opinion: the last gs-6 should be given the name "night light".
interesting choice to go with the electronica goth instead of the clearly superior metal goth motif
Not sure if this counts, but there's the Sans Pareil (ironically meaning 'without equal'.). It happened to exist alongside The Rocket (which led way to the improved The Planet locomotive).
It was arguably the best competition The Rocket had, but still lost either way. Though the Sans Pareil shouldn't be entirely understated as it made a few important contributions to locomotive design. There's also a slightly smaller replica of it with a few safety enhancements.
If possibble could you talk about DSB Litra E Class.
I’d add the GSR 800 class loco’s. They were meant to be a Pacific designed for use in Ireland on the Dublin-Belfast express. Ended up being built as 4-6-0’s and only 3 of the planned five were built. Built between 1939-1940 so of course WW2 really screwed them over with a coal shortage. The first to be withdrawn, the youngest sister ‘Táilte’ was withdrawn in 1955 and scrapped in 1957. The remaining sisters were withdrawn sometime in the 60’s. No. 801 ‘Macha’ was retubed in 1964 for a last tour and was subsequently scrapped.
Luckily, the first and now only remaining sister No. 800 ‘Maedhbh’ was withdrawn in 1962 for preservation. After spending sometime in Thurles and Inchore, she was moved in 1993 with several other engines to the then new Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. Though I would love to see her run again one day I can’t say it’s likely to happen
Can you put more locomotives from Queensland rail in
I honestly feel bad for the classes and subclasses of trains that had bad timing like this like for example the
London Midland & Scottish Railways twin D16,s that were probably gonna have more siblings then just themselves only to have that not happen and to later be scrapped by BR while the
New York Central A2 Berkshires we’re built too late in the twilight of the steam era in the New York central railroad that they also slaughtered by the Director of NYC at the time
Alfred E. Perlman
No steam engines for you! Thats my SAR! BTW, thats a 520 class behind the 740. They are rebuilding the class leader, 520, at the moment.
Besides a sentence on the 4460 Wikipedia page that doesn’t include a citation, I can’t find any record of it’s rumored restoration. Does anyone have access to this “interview” or did some kid just edit the wiki page for fun?
El Gobernador is Spanish for "the governor," meaning that Stanford (the politician of Central Pacific's bosses known as the Big Four - Crocker was the construction boss and so probably knew this thing was never going to work) had two CP locomotives named for him, the other being the CP's very first locomotive, the "Gov. Stanford," a fairly standard American-type which still exists today in the California Railway Museum. One wonders if Freud had anything to do with his eagerness to have his name on the biggest locomotive ever built.
0:20
" It's a Canon event"
Regarding potential examples of other vehicles types, we have:
Airplanes: Fokker D.VIII (far too late for it to matter in WW1), Albatros D. VA (while the best version of the Albatros, it hardly mattered against the Camel, Dolphin, Snipe (while late to WW1, it saw extensive usage after that war), SPAD X.III, Nieuport 17, and SE5), Airbus A340 (assuming you refuse to put it under worst airplanes list. To be fair this is far from dangerous, but is their least impressive design and came out a really bad time), Lockheed L-1649 Starliner, Boeing 377 Stratocruiser, B-54 Ultrafortress...
Curtiss SB2C Helldiver (I like this thing, but there's no denying the Avenger torpedo bomber (even with the mark 13 torpedoes being so bad) and Dauntless dive bomber had more time to do the heavy lifting), Hughes XF-11 (non-counter rotating propellers version), Spruce Goose, Stratolauncher, P-51H Mustang, Grumman F-9 Cougar (though the photo version saw more usage), XF-91 Thunderceptor (neat, but better solutions later arrived), Martin XB-48, Fiat CR.42, Mitsubishi Ki-83, N1K1-J, N1K2, Nakajima Kikka jet interceptors, Zeppelin-Staaken E-4/20, Arsenal VG-33, and Martin-Baker MB.5.
Ships: Yamato & Musashi, Type XXI submarine, Borodino class battleships, Petropavlovska class battleships, Navarin, Danton class battleship, and Erie class gunboat.
Tanks: British Mark 8, Entwicklung series (attempt to aim for standardization among German tanks), Matilda 1, AMR 33, Char 2C, and LT vz. 34.
I nicknamed 4460 "The World War II Daylight"
And you screwed up with the class 14 again right at the end. It's Network Rail that builds, maintains, and operates the tracks; National Rail isn't even a corporate body, just being the brand name for the collective services and ticketing of all the train companies
Please talk about 4501
El Gobernador Mentioned!
Some railroads were cursed with poor timing. Case in point, Rock Island. There was no Kansas City, just mudflats where two rivers merged. So the went to St.Joe. Where the business was. Denver was nothin, Colorado Springs was close to the silver strikes. Just two bad decisions that haunted that poor railroad to the very end. They couldn't win for losing.
Novelty could be seen as a tank engine that was built far too early. It was literally the first of its kind.
Going to suggest deltic, they only ran around 20 years before class 43 hst took over
No. They were replaced by the Class 43 HST.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 why did I think it was 41, rookie mistake by me. Thank you I'll edit it
20 years is a good service life
Such a pity, many of these engines looked like they could've had the right potential if they were around at the right time.
740 is the most American looking Aussie I've ever seen...
Honestly I thought the same thing, but perhaps it's because they were meant for the Chinese? Some of their designs could pass for American in their basic forms.
So the 740/L classes were Australia’s equivalent to the USA’s Russian Decapods.
actually the GS-6 is a normal locomotive, it’s the 5th design of the gs series
Pretty much any steam locomotive built in the mid to late 50's were cursed with bad timing
Odd question do people still make steam trains today? also with all the knowledge you have what train would you bring back to glory with all the problems fixed?🎉😊
only random new builds and a lot of rebuilds,Tornado an A1 pacific was built in 2008, two new locomotives a Clan class and a B17 also called Sandringham class are being built by CTL Seal in Sheffield UK
I'd love to see either/both/all of the L&YR Dreadnought 4-6-0 (Rebuilt version, of course - I'm not that cruel!) but with a 225psi boiler, a bigger superheater and (very) long lap, long travel valves, or (and here I can't quite decide, because I'm DEEPLY fond of both of them!) either the GCR 8N 2 cylinder 4-6-0's (not much modification needed, maybe long lap, long travel valves) or it's nemesis, the GCR 9Q 4 clyinder 4-6-0's (exactly the same as what the Hughes Dreadnought gets). (or maybe a Highland Railways "River" 4-6-0 - that would be cool!)
The P2 Gresley streamlined 2-8-2 is one that has by far the most progress made and the skills of those that achieved success with A1 Tornado behind it.
The P2 should be on the list and the US T1.
Both modified to fix known problems.
Someone in a rail forum said a group looked into restoring steam locos and modernizing them with some sort of bio coal or something like that but there’s not been an update in years. I think it was a Santa Fe 4-8-2 I don’t recall the number. Pretty sure China just quit using steam and have converted and I think they were the last to hold out to this day and age. Personally I think one day some company will come along and make it possible to make steam locos economically competitive compared to diesel electrics but who knows
@@jwrailve3615Actually China still uses steam engines and so does Russia
Too bad no one has tried to restore the 4460 to running shape. At the end of steam, SP shopped and stored several GS-6 s afer breaking them in in helper service in Niles Canyon.
British? Diesels? 1960's? I immediately think of the Deltics...and I'm a Yank! 😂
HiitD, I thoroughly enjoy your vids. You definitely know Jack Shit! I avoid him because of his bad breath.😂
Sanford wanted Elly built badly, and she was.
@ 3:42, She has an air-horn, yes?
Yes, most of SP's mainline steam engines have them.
I don't speak a lot of Spanish, but I'm pretty sure El Gobernador is pronounced El Go-burr-na-door. Spanish speakers, please don't get too mad at me, I've only taken one semester of high school Spanish and I can barely tell you the difference between formal and informal verbs.
Dude... Put No. 1 to mad science seperately for the next round. Pleeeaaase.
4460: the suffering and pain has already begin cousin now I am going to make the entire world obey my orders.
4449: please cousin be happy we are both cousins and we need to be happy.
4460: No cousin I don’t want to be happy besides who wants a grumpy locomotive to be happy everyone must know that their feelings are going to change just like me.
4449: okay cousin but I think that um other locomotives have feelings because I don’t really know.
4460: cousin me and you are the opposite and I really how you are so happy that why you need to make everyone happy.
4449: I just want to make everyone happy and other locomotives happy too.
😂 I got the joke!
It’s a phase 4460
Darkness,when would you talk some Chinese trains ,please, you've only talked one locomotive,can you talk more of the Chinese trains?
Just the other day I was wondering about steam preservation in China. I feared the communists would be unsentimental about these iron horses, but I'm happy to report it appears quite robust over there. Chinese railway history is fascinating, but English sources are scarce. Most just gawk at the oddity of running steam locomotives in mainline service well into the 21st century or the rapidity with which they put their high-speed lines into place. Very interesting subjects but rare is the source that does more than point at them and say "neat"
Happy hayfever
This is a sandwich
Negat daylight
FIRE UP 4460 !!!!!!!
El Go-bear-nah-door, Spanish for "The Governor". Which honestly probably belongs on a "Worst Trains" list as it was pretty much a total failure.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boynton_Bicycle_Railroad can you use this for your past as this is weird as I not know history. Can you explane to me and everon else?
Train of Thought did an episode of them.
Wasn't completely unprecedented, the Reuben Wells was built in 1868 as a 0-10-0.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Wells_(locomotive)