Ditching Flow Control on an E61
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2023
- My E-61 flow control kit bores me. I make better espresso without it. I'll show you my technique for manual pressure profiling on a stock E61, and explain why it's better than the modification.
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Setup for all shots:
18 g dose
Preinf: ~10 - 15 sec (1 g out)
IMS B702TF-h21-5BB ridgeless, straight, flat basket
IMS E61 200 IM shower screen
Pump set to 10 bar
Flow rate fixed at 7 ml / sec
#e61 #espresso #coffee
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Production Assistant: Leo Greene
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Kalimba Relaxation Music by Kevin MacLeod
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I hope this answers your questions about flow control kits. While you're here, kindly check out the "Community" page and contribute to the poll there. I'd like your advice about future content!
I have the same espresso machine setup. My only doubt is this extraction routine will kill the vibration pump more faster?
At 5 mins you mention 'matching the dose to the basket.' Can you explain what you mean / how you do this?
czcams.com/video/SyGJXRlexmc/video.html @@davidnicklin9203
I've been using a La Pavoni Europiccola lever espresso machine for about 25 years and what you are doing in this video mimics quite closely how I pull a shot on the lever. With a lever machine and a naked portafilter you become acutely aware of input pressure, lag and output.
I pre infuse with a partial pull until I get my first drips and the base of the basket is fully charged, then lift the lever to fully load the group with water,.
I watch the bloom and then pull a shot which more often than not is a ristretto, in my case about 1:1.3 in ratio 18 in, 23-24 out.
I'll probably move to a ECM Synchronika one of these days when my wrists give out after decades of manual shots.
I had been thinking about Flow Control on the Synchronika and your video added some valuable considerations, so thank you for that.
@@fgarced This seems possible, but I can't imagine it's going to be anything too substantial. With most pumps it's more about how much water is running through it cumulatively. I'd be a little more concerned about the switch than the pump. I think it's probably worth it for the potential improvements pressure profiling offers (and the fun of shaking hands with your machine every day)
Thanks for your willingness to go against the grain and always rigorously testing your results. I learn a lot from your channel, even if I don't always agree with your conclusions.
ever since i watched this channel i've been using this throttling technique with repeatable success. i don't have a group head gauge so iv had to rely on look and sound but its fine and its saved me a few hundred dollars. Thanks!
I have some disagreements in content and theories and correlations in this video, but I do agree with the point. There are many ways to acheive great tasting coffee. None of them are any better than the other. Pressure profiling. Pump profiling. Flow profiling. Temperature profiling. Basket profiling. None of it matters if it is not making coffee an enjoyable experience from prep to drink and you can enjoy it with none of that.
So small disagreements with some content and theories but no disagreement on message.
You should only be looking at any of those controls if and only if you want to. Otherwise just make good coffee you like. Be happy.
Flow control only matters if you are playing with it or are a scientist. Otherwise it doesnt make a difference in your ability to enjoy coffee. Know that if you buy into any espresso control its you buying into it not for coffee you enjoy but for playing around for coffee you enjoy as a home barista.
I doubt anyone is seriously trying to solve all the internal mechanisms or doing something so mind blowing unique that you couldnt make a coffee for people to enoy without flow profiling.
If youre making bad coffee its probably something else and not profiling that can make coffee you do enjoy. Profiling it just one way to try to make it something you can enjoy
As someone with flow profiling, pressure profiling, and an automated espresso system coming I can genuinely say I can also make good espresso without any of it. I like my shiny toys though and know that that is exactly what they are.
I have a Bezzera machine and have bought the Bezzera kit. It is super smooth and therefore very easy to use. I really love it. I only use it to do longer pre infusion to control acidity and ramp down to prevent over extraction and it has helped me in getting much smoother shots. Can highly recommend the Bezzera kit if it works on your system
Great video! We've been working on our review of the Profitec Pro 700 and haven't been able to get our hands on the flow control kit and funnily ended up doing this exact thing with cycling the pump to try and mimic pre-infusion. Works pretty well and with a little practice one can be very precise with it.
I understand now your gripe with the flow control. My knob is NOT finicky like yours, but I completely agree the function is counterintuitive and rubs me the wrong way too. After talking to more experienced folks, and getting a better idea of how it works and taking advantage instead of trying to make it work the way I think it should work, I really enjoy the extended pre-infusion. I find I've reached a limit where I can pre-infuse for too long and start to get unbalanced taste - from a disrupted puck perhaps... Thanks for the video!
Surprisingly I used same technic last couple of days before this video. Making somthing like slayer shots and diffrent taste profiles. Really worth of giving a try.
Enjoyed listening to your take on these devices added to E61 groupheads. I believe just adding a geouphead pressure guage will give me enough info to get the nice rampdown I want.
I moved on to a Decent Espresso three years ago and all my coffee experimenting is over. Pretty much settled on using coffee blends with different lever profiles.
great video! been loving your content, very in depth, and explained accurately and clearly. Lance hedrik did a great video recently on flow control as well, and I noticed the same conclusions you guys had after I modded my gaggia classic's pump with a dimmer. pressure and flow is always going to be dictated by the last valve in a system, which is the coffee puck obviously. it was a better pre-infusion control rather than a pressure control, but it was useful to slow down the flow of water as the puck broke down. the reduction of pressure is just a broad-handed flow control, and I noticed that the flow was a lot more responsive to the machine's inputs as the coffee puck became less resistant, which lines up with logic. I noticed that if I wasn't paying attention, the flow could run away from me and "ruin the ideal timing" so reducing the pump to half power halfway through the shot was a good way to finish off.
I upgraded to the gagguino kit recently and integrated scales into it (gutted a $10 scale, wired in a single hx711 board in place of the fancy drip tray system). I mostly got the kit because it provides better temp control than a basic PID (and is way less annoying to program) and reduces noise and vibration significantly by only running the pump to keep the designated pressure/flow maintained instead of wasting energy into the OPV. Especially since I installed a copper preheating coil into the boiler, reducing vibration helped with noise a ton. the integrated scales was definitely the missing piece of the flow control puzzle since it gives you a useful readout about what happens in the cup that the machine can actually see and use. I still find those fancy pressure profiles to be over the top and the one I always lean towards is a basic 9-bar to 6-bar progression, which can make best use of maintaining the flow control more precisely always since the puck causes lag. the main benefit of the flow control is not setting a standard ml/s flow, but just telling the machine that I want 36g in X seconds starting at 9-bar.
"Totally Analog", love it!
I do the same using a pump kill switch on my Silvia Pro ; ) being able to cycle the pump on and off without engaging the 3-way solenoid makes a world of difference.
I have a profitec 700,the flow control can rotate more than 360 degrees, it really helps make turbo shots,blooming shots,pre infuse etc
Can I just say that you are one of my favourite coffee CZcamsrs. I’ve watched all of your videos multiple times - dosing based on volume and not just arbitrary weight was a game changer for me in improving consistency.
You remind me of ThisOldTony - also one of my favourite CZcamsrs.
Please release more videos! Best, Adam
Thanks for the kind words, and welcome to the community. I'll have something new up in a matter of days.
OMG - its like the SGT Major of coffee theory and mechanics. Amazing !
I feel this is appropriate description of your videos - Speak quietly but carry a big stick (the big stick being your engineering background)
please do a review of a La Pavoni Euro... !
Thank you for this video. I'm trying to decide if I want Flow Control installed on my ECM Synchronka. I don't drink straight espresso, mainly Americano and milk-based drinks. So I'm wondering if it's even worth it.
Not sure if your machine uses a vibe pump but I found flow control on vibe pump machines to be a frustrating, unpredictable mess! The pressure jumps around and gets wildly out of control, especially at the start of the shot. But I’ve just installed it on a rotary pump machine and changing flow is predictable, intuitive and repeatable. No matter what, 9bar is always in the same position (I calibrated it to 3 o’clock) and if I park the flow at 11 o’clock, I always see a slow pressure ramp down. I use the following recipe for every shot now: Start the shot at 3 o’clock (9bar), shut off the flow at first drip (about 5sec), then after 10sec, back to 9bar, then at 15sec, park the flow at 11 o’clock to get a slow pressure ramp-down for the rest of the shot. The only thing I’ve noticed is that lighter roasts prefer parking at 10 o’clock for the ramp down. I also had to grind finer as the shots would be around 5sec too fast (for me). If you have a vibe pump machine, avoid flow control! YMMV.
I find flow control indispensable. It allows me to pre-infuse and to emulate a spring lever shot, and does its job very well. I have a different machine though. I can see where the E61 layout does not lend itself to flow control - or more precisely, I think you’ve gotten good results with your method.
The Synchronika flow control valve is just designed wrong. The internal seal goes in and out of the seal bore as you open and close it... Which continuously tears pieces of the seal off. The filter screen that's inside that valve also gets mashed to and fro because it's not sized correctly. When both of those things happen, you'll see inconsistency in flow and you'll see an inability to control flow. Choose a different flow control valve and it will be fine.
I sent ECM some information on the topic-- not sure if they fixed it or not. They really didn't give me any insights there, said they'd pass it along to their team.
The hypersensitivity mentioned is onlyy because you have seals jammed into the needle, periodically they shoft as you move the knob and pressure jumps. Move to a different brand flow control valve (needle valve) and you'll find that it works perfectly fine.
I had the same experience with that valve. My fix was to switch to the valve sold by Clive Coffee. I pre-infuse with the valve open 1/4 turn then go to wide open. Another one that works and is repeatable is start at 1/2 open, go to full for 6 sec. then finish at 1/2 open.
What is the difference and is it different than the machines that come with this feature?
Really interested to see your video on used commercial grinders. I think they provide the best bang for buck assuming you can fit one on your coffee bench and you get a good sample.
Agree and I removed my FLOW control kit soon after installing
My synchronika is plumbed filtered and regulated to 2 bars.
I prefer 2 bars to first drip, pump on to 8 bars and 2 bars for the last 10g.
I did install brew head gauge and it is invaluable alone.
If the difference from pump to head is more than about .3 bar then puck prep is bad!!
Interesting. What about system wear with repetitive on/off in short time?
I’ve been using a flow profiler for three years and I really like the way I can lower the pressure on the fly to 5-8 bars. We find it really affects the flavour of the coffee. Sometimes I have Anthony and go for a straight nine bars and that seems right for some coffee. But most of the time I am for seven bars and that’s what I get the best flavour
Yeah I really don't get this guy's point. The idea is to reduce pressure as the extraction proceeds. That's what the flow control is there for.
I suppose he means the pressure will reduce as the puck integrity weakens? I don't know. but flow control also allows you to up the flow, and therefore the pressure. So you have options in both directions. @@sympathetic_crustacean
I mean, espresso is practical chemistry. So increasing pressure will increase solubility. Bumping pressure up to 10 bars repeatedly would also bump up solution of materials at that point of contact time. I usually use my flow control to limit pressure for certain coffees and for certain drinks. A lot easier than adjusting the OPV all the time. I find a needle valve to work very well for this application but I made my own valve with a shallow taper and a fairly fine thread. Not twitchy at all.
I would think temperature and contact time are key. Pressure should have no influence, since it doesn`t change solubility of ions/oils. Pressure would have an influence on solubility of gases, of course. (thinking of CO2?)
Hi, great video, as always! I do respect very much your knowledge, obviously from a broad experience. This time I’ allow myself to give my bit. I have a flow control machine, a Dalla Corte Mina, and I from what I have experienced, flow profiling changes a lot the results of coffee. In fact it changes so much that sometimes it’s even overwhelming. The combination of coffee, temperature, profile, grind size and time can be too much, but with time and some advices I do my best. Anyway, that was it. Thank you! Enjoy the summer!
I think that I can definitely benefit from flow control, but....I only used it for fresh or stale beans. I have a ECM valve in a Rocket adn have used it to tame beans. I just had my machine fail due to the top valve wearing out, which was going to happen, but I think that the flow control may have accelerated wear. Either way, the stock mushroom valve is in and I'm going to use that exclusively for a while.
Do you still have the stock pre infusion spring in your Profitec?
I’m thinking of adding a 2nd pump switch to my machine so I can just leave the 3way valve in one spot and still cycle the pump
Have you tried the dimmer mod ? Great Video :)
Why dont you use lever espresso machine? Profitec pro 800?
For the reasons mentioned in this video I'm considering Strada X1.
CAFELAT ROBOT!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🏆🏆🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
The Decent DE1 communicates with the scale and profiles will adjust pump pressure to compensate for actual flow. There are multiple issues with E61 flow control, the lack of repeatability and precision using a knob as well as the lack of temperature stability due to the archaic design. A Slayer-modded Breville Dual Boiler will also have to use a knob, but it's easier to control and doesn't have temperature issues.
What’s your opinion on the Lelit Bianca valve? They are the originator
I feel like yes, if you're only messing with a simple preinfusion and a set max pressure, sure, pump cycling works. But those shot profiles that you show in the video aren't realistically achievable with that trick. For example, the blooming allonge that you hovered over, isn't doing any "flourishes and pirouettes", it's a short low pressure preinfusion, and then (and here is the crux of the pump cycling trick) a very long low pressure low flow extraction. So allonges, filter 2.0s are off the table, and turbos are a little more finnicky.
Now this is mere speculation, but reaching a higher peak pressure on the puck may create irreversible channeling which isn't perceivable in the output flow. Thoughts on that?
I installed this on my R58 about a year ago or more. Now i’m facing more issue with the extraction lever needing much more frequent lubrication and the pressure is always at 9 bar. It used to work but not anymore. Idk what the issue is but i’m getting rid of it asap.
What pressure gauge are you using? Thanks!
@ 5:10min He talks about creating a vacuum ? how do we avoid vacuum over the puck ?
Which Profitec are you using, 500 pro pid?
Best one is the lelit bianca flow control
Anyone know how to cycle the pump on a pro 700? Pump pressure shoots up to 9 bars almost immediately😵
Great explanation. I love it that you make up your own mind about everything "known/assumed" in the coffee world. So you say you prefer a "Slayer like shot"? That would mean I could replicate that with the Breville dual boiler so low pre infusion and then full blast the puck. But doesnt a low flow pre infusion lead to a slow and uneven saturation of the puck? With your E61 method I think you blast the puck with water for full saturation and then let it soak and preinfuse before blasting it again with water right? For that on a BDB somethink like a kill switch for the Pump would be needed I guess.
does cycling the pump not open the solenoid and purge the water?
On an E-61 the solenoid doesn't activate until you drop the lever all the way down. There is a sort of "middle" spot between the down and up positions you can keep it at.
How did you settle on your pre-infusion routine? Why not 3g instead of 1g? Why 6-10 bar vs. 1-3 or whatever? Do you pre-infuse for all coffees?
Pressure compensated flow control valve? I don't know if any machine uses one of those.
What? If you raise the flow rate above normal, you can grind finer. The coffee does the compensation. The shot runs about the same pressure and time but with finer grit and more thorough extraction, balancing the acidity.
@wiredgourmet These flow control kits are uncompensated, meaning the control is open loop, and the flow will vary widely depending on the puck degradation, even if the pressure is held constant by the OPV. I was suggesting the use of a pressure compensated valve, which is common in hydraulics, to have precise flow control with only mechanical parts.
In a way, your method of intermittently actuating the pump should be more precise than the flow control kit, because there is a fixed amount of water passing through the system per cycle of the pump. That's what the Decent does, though much faster, of course.
Sorry, I thought you were commenting on the idea of using the gadget to increase baseline flow rates. I get a lot of comments, lol. I don't always read closely. But I see what you mean. Well, my only question would be whether we typically see a change in resistance sufficient to benefit noticeably (flavor-wise) from a compensating valve.
Obviously, the flow speeds up during a shot, as we know by watching the shot clock and output weight. But it doesn't strike me as major after the first few seconds, and I have no reason to assume that it has a detrimental effect on the flavor. The coffee gets a little churned up, soluble solids dissolve, the temperature rises, the coffee bed changes naturally in several ways. It's all part of the process. So I kinda wonder if making the flow rate really constant isn't cracking a nut with a sledgehammer maybe? Also, aren't these valves used in relatively high-pressure industrial systems? Do they even work at these pressures? It is an interesting idea, though.@@victorbarroscoch
I think most people miss the fact that you get more than stock flow with the kit fitted and the valve fully open . They think that is the stock setting....... I think!
Also most people do not understand they are adjusting flow, not adjusting pressure with constant flow. 2 very different scenarios.
You stopped popping up in my subscriber feed! It seems YT just decides to kill some channels. I watch all of your videos the day you upload them, so it's not like I skip any...
I have been playing with this for the last few months. If the puck is filled with the right amount there is a subtle effect achieved by cycling the pressure, and that is an expansion and compression of the grounds. You get the extraction getting deeper and faster into the grounds, much like repeatedly squeezing and releasing a sponge under water to clean it. You can only notice this effect if you push the extraction ratio to about 3:1 when over-extraction flavors emerge a little earlier. As this video points out, there is very little difference in the flow rates by doing this. These experiments are very easy to perform on a Flair or Decent, but I would not trust some other designs. It puzzles me why Hoffman gets so hung up on 9 bar instead of 10 bar, when a simple procedure as shown in this video puts the lie to that notion.
I think I agree, on an E61 I don't think flow control is THAT useful or nice / necessary to have.
6:00 i shited myself, i am in a dark room and i though it was my finger moving by itself
"Any manufacturers want to reach out..."
You know, when I got a job as an mech/process control engineer they had this system where you send them a resume/CV. I don't think that's changed in the last ten years but what do I know, lol!
Also, using mechanical restriction post-pump in the flow path is so old-hat by now that it's lazy design. Marzocco has prior art wherein a rheostat is used but that is easily worked around; Buckman (Decent) came up with a way to use pulse-duration modulation to deliver impressive and accurate on-the-fly changes.
Point being: no need to put extra wear on the HAAS VF etc. for some bespoke hipster-friendly machine part(s) that is really just another attempt at reinventing the wheel. Be creative instead and keep defining new integral functions specific to intended application and then find solutions!
What system are you using for the AI text to voice in the narration?
Well… now I don’t need to buy one :) thanks!
You sound like Walter white 😂
in decent you record output plus input
Hmmmmmm..
I mean you could have just left the flow on full open? But I do understand derstand your point
you got too much free time
The Synchronika flow control valve is just designed wrong. The internal seal goes in and out of the seal bore as you open and close it... Which continuously tears pieces of the seal off. The filter screen that's inside that valve also gets mashed to and fro because it's not sized correctly. When both of those things happen, you'll see inconsistency in flow and you'll see an inability to control flow. Choose a different flow control valve and it will be fine.
I sent ECM some information on the topic-- not sure if they fixed it or not. They really didn't give me any insights there, said they'd pass it along to their team.
The reason that your pressure profiling jumps erratically is because you have seals jammed into the needle of the flow control valve. As you turn the knob the piece of seal will eventually move and change the flow path and thus pressure. If you switch to a different brand flow control valve that doesn't have those design flaws, it will work perfectly fine. No more sporadic pressure jumps.
I would expect within the first 20 drinks or so that you'll start to experience issues with that valve until it is redesigned. Maybe if your seal bore is smoother it will take a bit longer for the seals to tear. The screen however, does get mashed up into the seal as well which helps to tear the seal. It'll happen faster if you really close that valve off all the way and open it up quite a bit in each of your profiles.
I have all the design measurements and cross sectional drawings based on my measurements that prove this out.