Game Overs Need to Die
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2019
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Alax was playing Celeste, and then Mario Maker 2, and then made an unstructured discussion on dying in video games.
Credits jam► • I made a song out of M...
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MUSIC USED►
Aria of the Soul - Persona 5
Battle Against a Weak Opponent - Earthbound
Dream Memories - Mario Party 5
Donut Plains - Super Mario World
Summit - Celeste
Resurrections - Celeste
Awake - Celeste
Nook's Cranny - Animal Crossing
Athletic (Slowed Down) - New Super Mario Bros. U
Littleroot Town - Pokemon Ruby & Sapphire
Scattered and Lost - Celeste
Overworld - Super Mario World
Lava Overworld - New Super Mario Bros.
Tutorial Battle - Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
Game Over - Sonic the Hedgehog
Aquatic Ruin Zone - Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Suspicion - Persona 5
Layer Cake - Persona 5
Underground Theme (Super Mario Bros.) - Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Mach Rider - Super Smash Bros. Melee - Hry
_Your video got Demonetized!_
> Try Again
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Daniel Sambar
Had to go right there.
He really should remove the bitch out of the intro
Quit
All three
That's why Patreon exists. I use adblock and just Patreon the people I want to receive money.
>Tough it out
Canadian man doesn't discover that Super Meat Boy exists 2019 colorimetric
I think he would like hotline miami as well
And cuphead
Katana Zero
Honestly, throughout this video while he was talking about Celeste, I was thinking "Wait, Meat Boy did this ages ago"
He has some good points, namely that long respawn times are not fun, but I think there is a difference between "getting good" at a level and "just squeaking by" a level, and I don't hate it when a game forces me to get good at a level by being less-then-generous with their checkpoints. Donkey Kong Country Returns is a good example of that (hilariously enough, I find the actual game over mechanic to be fairly pointless and I would be perfectly fine with ditching it).
RelaxAlax: save points suck
NakeyJakey: save points are great
Me: *confused screaming*
Also NakeyJakey 18 videos about: GAMES THAT SHOULD BANG me so confused how does that work
Go with Nakey
I really like RelaxAlax, but I'm going with Jakey on this one. Also most of the time as well, Jakey is one of my favorite reviewers
Dawson Mueller it’s Alax, not Alex, You frick.
Me: 12:05
Expect talk about game overs, talks about death animations instead.
Yeah, I wanted to see an argument against Game Overs, what will it add to a game to remove it, or how it will improve? Instead, just an advice about respawn time.
@@Yoseqlo1 isnt it clear? Gameovers add nothing to the game they only serve to waste your time
joão vitor no one cares
@@poog6502 ok... why did you click in a video about game overs?
@@valletas Well what else should be your punishment for failing the same challenge too many times, without improving at all?
Two Alax videos in a week?
*THE END IS NEAR!*
*The deed is near*
Isn’t it every Thursday?
am i missing a joke or something or
This person predicted 2020 perfectly
Oh thanks for that.
this is all your fucking fault are you proud of yourself
Honestly I enjoy Game Overs. They can look cool sometimes and they fuel me to retry to beat the level and not see that same screen another time (at least for a while).
^
This comment needs more likes
Me on dark souls
i agree
I like having a limited number of tries as long as the game has an actual punishment for getting a game over instead of just mildly inconveniencing the player by making them walk back to the level they were in
“The reason why I hate failing in video games is because it takes so long just to get back.”
Hoo boy, wait till you play Sonic 06 (if you even want to go through that mix of jazz and funk)
We call it Junk
@@alexanderrichard8842 Or Kunk
Kunk Dunk
Or Monster Hunter
Alexander Richard I understood that reference
12:05
In Celeste dying is a critical part if the game. In something like Mario, it happens far less frequently and is more of a subtle slap on the wrist. I don't think its fair to compare both games since they have different goals from each other. Done correctly, Game Overs can create tension and provide some much needed fear for failure, like a horror game.
fear for failure? what are you masochistic? i play to geet good vives not to get bad emotions, only good
@@diablo.the.cheater horror is a video game genre and all Platformers are designed, to be stressful.
Tf are you talking about?
@@LeAndre_McCoy i don't consider those as videogames, i consider them as masochistic devices developed by the devil himself
@@diablo.the.cheater ok what the fuck are you talking about?
I personally see nothing wrong with waiting through a screen to restart a level
I think Alax just wanted to talk about Celeste for 13 minutes
Seen that type of game before Like I want to be the one is not that special. Only people like it cause it's cute and has a fuckable main character lol.
I see no issue with this.
@@SyLuX636 bruh what
Understandable
@@SyLuX636 I feel like you haven't actually played Celeste... People like it because the gameplay is good, the story is good, the characters are good, the way they do secrets is good, the challenge is good, etc.. Also your argument of people only liking it because it has a fuckable main character can immediately be disproven by comparing the amount of Super Meat Boy r34 to Celeste r34...
If your comment was meant in satire then I apologise but I felt the need to defend one of my favourite games regardless and disprove your senseless point.
I mean the game over only existed in the first place so that any one kid couldn't hog an arcade game all day so it has no good reason to be in any console game tbh
It was more like "You died? Pay to continue or lose your progress"
MERIO AGAIN YOU'RE EVERYWHERE
@@jberrethful the challenge is in the game, not the game over
A King DeDeDe Main. And maybe a Hero main. Artificial challenge that wastes your time 🤷♀️
The "game over" exist because "You suck" would be too much
For that reason some gave over screens have laughs
This video kinda ignores differing game design. Cuphead has pretty lengthy deaths too, but in that time I get to see cool animations, a funny quote from the boss I died to, and a progress meter to show how close I was (or rub it in). Mario maker is cool because I also see how many other people died in the same area. Celeste could have easily done the latter effectively, but dying there is far more expected and common, let alone that each screen is very quick to accomplish once you have the execution, so extra death animations would really add up time.
The most extreme version of this is Mortal kombat, where someone can really extend your loss with a fatality and make you watch the entire win pose. If you took that out though, a major unique aspect would be gone from that series. Different strokes for different folks
Rewatching some of Alax older videos I realise he's a very close minded guy, and MAN IS STARTING TO SHOW UP A LOT MORE IN THE LATEST VIDEOS
I'm not really sure why this video was made. Game Overs are largely irrelevant nowadays, virtually non-existent. I'm still watching it though.
With the mortal combat example the person extends the lost with an animation is having fun cause they get to see a unique animation that they themselves choose to have. That's completely different to game overs in single player games where if you die and get a game over it waste your time regardless if you wanted it or not.
I totally agree with the logic behind Celeste. Another game, Geometry Dash, has a simple game over screen.
As soon as you die with a new best, you get the percentage and some text that probably makes you rage or something. If you just reached a percentage = or < your best, you respawn very fast.
Geometry Dash can have you die a lot, and I MEAN a LOT.
So having a short "game over" screen is great
SMM 2 has longer death scenes and to show the x signs to assure the player that they're not the only one who failed that section, right?
As someone who really enjoys RPGs, saving every room and not being penalized for losses just isn't as fun, or immersive. Just recently I was playing Etrian Odyssey Untold on the hardest difficulty, which doesn't allow retries after a party wipe. After quite a bit of exploration and grinding, I was heading back to town, but got caught off-guard and almost game-overed. The whole battle, I had to calmly strategize a way out, knowing that failure meant I'd lose all my work. These were deadly monsters, and being left alive at a checkpoint after losing the battle wouldn't have felt right. That tension I felt, the fear that my risky overextension might cost me, was exhilarating! There were actual consequences to my actions, and it felt good.
I get that losing a ton of progress to something out of your control, a la your cat messing up Persona 5, is not fair or fun. But there's a reason that one of the big rules of RPGs is Save, Save, Save. P5 is espeically good to players for this, since it offers numerous save slots and plenty of places and chances to save. If anything, I'd say your situation with P5 is more the fault of bad console design than anything; having a system that ejects the disc to a stiff breeze is not a design choice I'd have made.
Ultimately I suppose it comes down to opinions, but I just can't agree that making games more forgiving is objectively a good choice. Why bother playing strategically if failure just means a tap on the wrist?
Thing is, Alax never said game overs means games should be more forgiving--heck that's why he (and everyone) was raving about Celeste and several other indie games. You can have difficult games without game overs.
Now as for game overs in RPGs I can't think of a better example than Pokemon. You lose all your Pokemon? No problem--you go back to the Pokemon Center and get all your Pokemon's health restored. No progress is reset or anything. You can also combine this with areas further away from a Pokemon Center to increase the risk of going back all the way to a Pokemon Center to then come back to where you were. This, combined with auto-saves in the latest gen 8 games, is the perfect way to handle "game overs" in RPGs imo. (Also slightly unrelated but Blasphemous, an exploration 2D game, also has it so that when you die or quit the game all your collectibles, etc. is saved and you simply start at the last checkpoint you touched.)
These goddamn, cursed FOEs man.
I totally get what you're saying, but I gotta be a masochist to do a no-death run with the condition of a permanent game over should I die. Especially when the game can go way beyond 60hrs. If you died, how would you feel and would you pick up the game and try again?
@@TheAcer176 Sure, you're free to think however you like about the series. But it's also revolutionized RPGs imo in many ways, one of which being the save system.
@@midasmagnezone4282 how?
by having bad draw distance?
To be honest.. this video needs a major title change.
You compared a meat boy-like game to a mario game with the main topic being "game over". Entire video was just you complaining on the Respawn Time rather than the whole "Game Over" sort of talk over all. Theres a MASSIVE difference between a Game Over and Respawn Time. How you view it as "the same" I'll never know.. but seriously. Just relax, Alax. [ i did a funny]
A haH
It's so strange that these types of comments stay at the bottom... What the hell are these weebs doing?
Whoa, just as i finished the video i was like "well here i go to the comments where everyone is a try hard comedian expecting to be noticed and there's not a single comment addressing anything about the video itself" but here you are my man, thank you, and you're absolutely right, Alax honestly has the wrong idea here
Fuzzy Beard is it me or did this whole video just sound like a rant on Mario maker 2.
@@jazzy3628 I also agree to you, this is probably the first relax Alex video that I ever gave a dislike to
See.. but sometimes you need more severe consequences depending on the challange. Mario is (supposed) to be a fairly forgiving game, where as Celeste is not. Celeste would be unplayable without instantly going back to the start of the room. A Mario game giving you game over if you flubbed all your lives on one level is well deserved. The more time it wastes the higher the stakes are and people actually love it. Look at something like Dark Souls (I know, comparing everything to Dark Souls is getting extremely tired but hear me out).
Dying in Dark Souls can reset you for half an hour at times. And if you screw up and die twice well it's pretty much the equivilent of a game over because depending on how many souls you were carrying that is a lot of progress reset, not just physical progress in the stage. Why is this extremely punishing thing so attractive though? Cause it raises the stakes, because dying matters. If you are just going to instantly start over at the start of the room you can willingly kill yourself against some spikes just to try again, which is the opposite of what any game should encourage.
Game Over do not need to go away. They need to be used appropriately. In games where they make sense and apply the correct the amount of punishment applicable. Which I think they currently do.
i agree
i agree with this
Nice said
Eloquently spoken
Agreed
WEREASS is probably the best invention man kind has made in 2019 XD
I mean... your not even complaining about game overs for MM2, your just complaining about how slow the death animation is for MM2.
Game overs are just regular dying except they waste even *more* time with an extra screen and having to go from the *start* of the level again. You could easily figure that out without asking anyone. If anything, see the top comment; Game overs were invented as an essential to arcade games, so they have no practical use in modern gaming.
PsYan #3390 MM2’s endless would have no point without game overs since it’s endless. I was saying that since his main complaint was with MM2.
@@luigiplayer14 the point is that gameovers should only be put in when *nessisary* to the gameplay philosphy/goal and not just to make the game difficult for no reason
PsYan #3390 I know, but his was mainly complaining about MM2
Nessisary wtf is that sorry I'm not verbal with English
You don't want auto saves in a game like persona where your choices matter. Manual saves completely works to your advantage if you want perfect runs
auto saves really are crap if you think about it since they over ride the old file nomatter what so you make ANY major mistake or miss a major item or event. Time to replay the entire game to get it then.
^^^^
Exactly case and point, Bethesda games.
Auto saves can load you back into instant death repeatedly
snintendog well botw and Three Houses have auto saves in a separate slot. So you can save normally but the auto save is always there if you say have a crash or something. It’s such a simple way to get advantages of both systems.
Yeah but many games with auto saves have multiple slots like bethesda and zelda botw
I just want to run ~ skull
Rip monika and amiibo gannon in the intro
november 8th 2018 - febuary 14th 2019
You will be missed
GODDDDD Please no Monika. Anything but that.
How to saw ganon in the intro what do you mean?
They are in the outro
Fuck monika
I wish they made an ultimate Ganondorf amiibo that’d be amazing
I love Dark Souls' "YOU DIED" screens. The in your face bluntly obvious nature of it is hilarious.
This doesn't really actually have anything to do with Game Overs. You spent the first half of the video talking about a respawn timer. The video seems to be about dying in general in a game
A game over IS dying in a video game, that is literally what it means
@@mouthshovel No, in Mario for example, a game over isn't the same as dying - you only get a Game Over when you lose all your lives
Metal Gear Solid always had a cool approach, saving was more like "recording you mission progress" and the Game Over screen is classic, with your friends actually reacting to your death.
9:23 “I have a folder of hands”
*Kira Yoshikage wants to know your location*
*bites za dusto*
My name is Yoshikage Kira.
@Yungdaggerdick floor
i waited for that comment lmao
@Yungdaggerdick Kira Yoshikage > Bakugo
Bakugo still cool.
'Only to have Mario die to a barrel that DECIDED to take the stairs'
_RelaxAlax,_ 2019
Truer words never spoken.
When you click Start Over to re spawn quicker, but instead of loading at your checkpoint you start at the VERY Beginning of the level.
"i have a folder of hands"
Yoshikage wants to
KNOW YOUR LOCATION
Tomura Shigaraki wants to know your location.
i found you your end I near on youtube as a fellow discord user I can raid your servers
Hayato Texted you: "Help".
@@anexplosion5436 no
@@lisapierre2852 media.vlipsy.com/vlips/zmhmlR6M/preview.jpg
"Git gud!"
-Hornet, from Hollow Knight
Not literally, if you check out all of her "dialogs" in the game one kinda sounds like she is saying "git gud!", you just need a little bit of imagination to hear it like that tho
@@jomodmod friendly reminder that this line only plays when you fight the true final boss. since it only happens once, in the moment where it would be most appropriate, I think the reference was on purpose.
Hollow knight is such a good game. waiting for silksong.
@@Drekromancer Nah, Team Cherry already stated that it was "a happy coincidence" on an interview, you can search that part of the interview on CZcams by typing "hornet git gud" on the search bar.
Thing is, the games with game overs are usually heavily based around the game over. 1-ups and coins and hitting enemies 8 times in a row would be redundant if there was no lives. It's so deeply rooted into these old games. I think it's much easier for new games to forego those mechanics of times long past because 1) they're modern games with a much more understanding audience and 2) it's easier to build no game overs into your game when you're starting from scratch. To take away game overs from a lot of classic games would mean reworking the games quite a bit--which may or may not always work out.
I think this video is just about how lazy Alax is.
And hey, I agreed with a lot of his points so I guess I’m lazy too
When I die in Minecraft Hardcore mode
“Game Overs need to die”
Game Over were at there worst when they start you way back at the beginning , which sucks so much
Nathaniel Foga The original Sonic The Hedgehog says hi
In your profile pic, I thought it's RelaxAlax. XD
@@memebot6490 Same does the first Super Mario Bros.
Weren't you that guy that gave caddicarus a copy of George of the jungle for the ps2?
@@eevee93 pretty sure you could start back at the world you died on by pressing start on the game over screen
Deaths in Mario Maker 2 make me want to quit playing rather than making me want to get better at playing. Endless mode instead of 100 man challenge gives me no goals to shoot for. Since I'll never get on any leader boards anyway making 2 levels before game over feels the same as making 30 levels.
That's kinda the point though. It's a game that people make and pick up for fun, there isn't meant to be an end goal. You play Mario Maker with a goal of beating a level, if you can't, you find a new level or lower the difficulty. It's a casual game you can play with friends and if you want to stop playing, you can. And death is clearly different for people. Some get competitive, some laugh and find it funny where others die, some wish you could respawn faster, etc.
Let's compare it to say... Smash. There is no real end goal, if I lose, I get frustrated, but I can stop anytime. If I want to pick it up once, I can. If I want to go on a spree, I can.
I recall in band practice that any time you messed up you were lets say "encouraged" to restart a whole section at a time because it would make you better at playing the song as a whole. Like, you would have to play the song by individual parts and then string all the parts together to play the whole song in one take. It would get you better at doing one specific thing so that when you were tested on it later on you would be less likely to mess up at any point. Of course after a while you would get to a point where your like "ugh jeez I've already proven I know how to play the first half of the song, I just need to work on the second half so let me do that and quit wasting my time with the first half" and by the time you got thru thinking that you're suddenly blindsided by the second half and mess up something super simple and feel dumb because you were so focused on the fact that you had to redo stuff that you ended up messing up something super simple in the second part pretty much just proving your band teacher right in the first place.
I've kinda thought of game overs like that. It's frustrating, but it'll prepare yourself for any future problems better. Not trying to make this some kinda git gud argument, but it can really help you prepare for the game's obstacles later on. For example, in Dark Souls the area Sen's Fortress has you navigating through an obstacle course of falling boulders, swinging blades, and secret wall crossbow traps. The only "checkpoints" are at the bottom before entering and at the top shortly before the boss. So dying from a boulder would make you restart from the beginning and "ugh jeez I already know how to deal with the swinging blades, why do I have to-" and you die again to the boulder. But once you've died 12 times to the same boulder you figure out how to get past it and the second boulder puzzle isn't nearly as difficult to deal with. Then you get near the top and your like "ooh that last swinging blade puzzle was super challenging but I've made it thru" and if you've been paying attention to the rest of the area then you won't step on the button that shoots arrows from the wall at you (or you'll hit the button but avoid the arrows since there's really only one way for them to come from). Or you haven't been paying attention to the lessons that the game wanted to teach you and you die from the arrows and have to restart the entire area. Again.
I feel like some games do the longer death times for decent reasons but overall I would agree that most games just toss it in because older games in the genre did it and it probably shouldn't even be in the game. Hollow Knight kills you and you respawn rather quickly yet Dark Souls wants you to take your time to sit and reflect on your mistakes before you jump back into the game. Although Dark Souls also has terribly long load times so it makes dying in that a bit longer than I think devs really intended for dying to take. So basically, some games probably use it for a reason and others could likely benefit from not having it at all. I don't think the mechanic itself is this nightmare mechanic from the previous century that needs to be burnt at the stake, but yeah overall too many people use it in their games solely because older games they like did it and not because it really fits well in their game.
Hats off to Mario Odyssey for not having lives.
*(Pun completely intended.)*
If we're getting rid of lives, might as well get rid of check points since dying has no serious consequences and you'd probably spawn where ever the game last auto saved.
@@doclouis4236 That doesn't make sense. getting rid of lives does not get rid of the consequences specifically because of checkpoints.
@@doclouis4236 Having to repeat an extremely tedious, and possibly difficult part of a level after one small screw up isn't a consequence. It's time wasting. That's just lives. Game overs, however, are far, far worse. Regardless of your progress in the level, how long the level is or how easily you managed to overcome the previous obstacles, getting a game over means that you need to start thw whole level (possibly world) over again. You already know you can beat those levels, but since the game counts all progress the same regardless of how far you got, it's worthless. Game Overs can crush your will to play a game, and while challenge is important, I'd rather have a difficult game made easy by abundant checkpoints and lack of game overs, than an easy game made unplayable by extremely scarce checkpoints and ridiculously punishing game overs.
If we getting rid of the bad tradition of game overs can we get rid of the phrase pun intended
@@pokemon05100 Ever heard of PC games? Ever heard of quick saves in those games? More games these days have auto save points then before when cheats were still a thing in console games. Nowadays there are auto save points nearly everywhere, especially at bosses. While true that check points lessen the frustration of having to do a tedious level, that's still not going to completely save you. If anything we have it way easier these days then before, not saying that all games should be hard but I'd say more people are starting to get less competent. And if that's the case, then you should have a choice of difficulty. I'm kind of disappointed that lives and cheats are becoming less prominent in some games, it used to be real special when you conquered a difficult level with a limited amount of lives.
so basically this video is "I dont want to get punished for playing bad, can I get rewarded?"
Nah dying animations/level reloading is something that should be improved upon, Rather than the dying animation having a dedicated 2 seconds to play - why not integrate it into the rebuilding of the level? (if even it needs that time at all since we're not exactly using spindle hard drives anymore, and things can be suspended in RAM very easily.) save states are a clear example of this where if you mess up well you don't exactly want to wait 2-10 seconds in faster paced games and sometimes even minutes in older turn-based-RPGs to get back to where you JUST were so you hit the button and you're back to wherever you put the save state.
Reminds me of a certain quote I heard once.
"Game overs are the failures of a game designer"
Then almost all game designers suck. That makes sense.
In my opinion your idea of "room based" for rpgs wouldn't work since its not punishing you for YOUR fault at failing, especially with persona games ITS YOUR FAULT if you get enemy ambushed obviously barring persona 1 2 and q1 and q2 even with those games you have items and skills to nearly never get enemy ambushed, or its your fault for trying to fight an enemy you know you cant beat. Of course you wont always know an enemies weakness but when you have can eliminate at least 4 of the possibilities before your enemy can attack, or for a lot of enemies you can look at there design like in p5 for the most part *if an enemy is flying they're likely weak to gun*. which makes it your fault for not hitting its weakness or your fault for not being able to cover every weakness your party members cant as the protagonist. The only time i agree room based would work is in persona 4's dungeons where the only save point you can go to is the final floor and if you go back to the entrance you have to climb everything again, which persona 4 golden heavily fixes in its normal difficulty. In persona 3 its not a problem since most of the rooms are small and or the stairs is near where you entered and its easy enough to just run past every enemy to get to the next mini boss floor and then grind a bit on the enemies after you know you can go back and save worry free. In my opinion just respawning at the start of the room wont get a player engaged to get better at the game since there's no punishment, the waiting time to get back into the game isn't the punishment since there's very little waiting time due to a skip button with cutscenes. The punishment is the players needs to redo what he did because the player fucked up. Well i do agree there's points in persona games where you get cucked they're few and far between.
That's a lot
I find it funny that you used MM2 to as an example of game overs, despite the game not actually having game overs during normal play. The long time between death and respawn is 90% being more faithful to the games it emulates, and 10% leaving time for the switch to reset the absurd level with hundreds of enemies and five bowsers for some reason without melting your switch. Also, It's not a game over, those just don't happen in normal gameplay.
There *are* two gamemodes in SMM2 with actual lives and game overs is the endless challenge and the story mode. The prior is a challenge mode, the entire point is to see how far you can get without getting a game over, so it gets a pass. The story mode, however, could do without game overs, and yet you didn't even touch on it. You make a good point, but you used the weirdest thing to try and prove it.
nobody cares
Yeah I figured he would be talking about actual game overs which are an archaic design choice but he talks about regular deaths instead
@@ajculum723 He seems more interested in how long it takes too reload a level after dying over actual game overs themselves while also using game overs as a means to show it takes too much time rather than proving game overs in general are blank, as you could apply this argument to just reload time which can depend on the content of the game, loading time, etc. and isnt something necessarily hindered or effected by game overs from what I'm aware of.
Game overs are an example of what hes trying to explain but hes treating it as game overs are the actual problem when, the problem hes describing just uses game over as an example and isnt the argument hes trying to make which is misleading to say the least.
Did you not pay attention to the video? It takes a long time, the fact that they did that on purpose makes it more annoying.
Alax: *mentions Hollow Knight*
Me: :)
Alax: *Doesn't wanna finish it because of walking back to his shade*
Me: :/
he is lazy fuck
Jiji exists for a reason, ugh
this guy should stick to easy games then, if he cant wrap his head around that mechanic
The funny thing is that Hollow Knight is piss easy too. Too bad the devs ruined the game with those bullshit pantheons.
I'M MORE MAD ABOUT HE PUT PUYO PUYO IN HIS VIDEO AND HE DIDN'T REVIEW IT
I mean i said this years ago with the prince of Persia reboot. Everyone was bitching about how theres no game over and how that somehow robs game of challenge " no seriously thats the main reason the game got hate even the gt and ign videos didnt like it. Meanwhile the devs said weve moved beyond game overs and there was no need to waste the players time. Then Mario takes out game overs with odessy and suddenly everyone loves the no game overs concept. Well prince of persia died for our sins first.
Your videos are WAY funnier recently, especially the alst two videos, with the editing being fantastic, the nikki joke in super mario sunshine and the mario not tipping joke. And in this with the yugioh die joke are amazing.
The point is your editing and writing is getting way better and funnier and I'm even more in love with your content now
"Do you know anybody trying to replicate Sonic's design because of how much attention its garnered?"
Well, we have Freedom Planet.
we also have spark the electric jester as well.
Freedom planets design isn’t that great either tbh
still more fun than the I wanna be the guy clone celeste.
@@snintendog literally the only thing in common with IWBTG is that it has jumping.
There are no surprise deaths in Celeste. Everything is taught in a safe environment and difficulty is brought up form there, so everything can (in theory) be done by a first-time player, and the only test is your knowledge of the game. IWBTG is literally entirely about memorizing unfair bullshit traps.
@@snintendog say sike right damn now
Yeah but Celeste and Mario are very different games.
In Celeste you are constantly making risky jumps that most won't get on thier first try, therefore you shouldn't be punished so harshly for making mistakes.
Making mistakes is part of Celeste.
In Mario, you aren't constantly given challenges as hard as that, so the game hands out harder punishments for failing. If this weren't the case players wouldn't feel pressured to try thier best to avoid death.
Making mistakes is what you avoid in Mario.
(This is not an argument for game overs. I'm talking about dying in mm2)
SPRITE FREAK This is a strong argument. A classic Mario level is supposed to be designed in such a way that if you pay attention you should never die.
he is basically saying normal mario is some how worse than kaizo mario with savestates.
Rayman Legends.
John Jekyllson that ain’t how people are designing Mario maker 2 levels.
snintendog …do you think Celeste is Kaizo Mario?
Guess this guy was prompted to “Press ‘R’ to try again” one too many times.
I’m making a video game right now actually, and while I agree that game overs suck, I was struggling to figure out what to do instead
This video helped me actually quite a bit
but game over, or fail states are important for certain games like x com, fire emblem or the binding of isaac :0
Well rougelites are completely different. The gameplay loop of rouge lites is playing the same game but different over and over until eventually success. The point of rougelites is to game over. The fun of rouge lites is unlocking new shit and finally beating challenges that you could never before and master the game. My personal favorite rougelite is gungeon and is the best I’ve played
Agreed, Gungeon is very good
yeah for strategy games game overs are necessary because you literally die but side scrollers like Mario games dont really need it
Game overs can be cool
The Batman series (I only played Arkham Knight)
Will show off villains talking to you before you decide to rage quit or return
Me: *dies in game*
*Game over screen*
Two-Face: It seems the face of death has flipped over for you
Me: Oh I'll show you death!
Yooooo I thought I was the only one who said that
Alternate title: Game Overs need to game over.
The "Ys" series does this so well. You can save anywhere you want (some exceptions for story). When you load the game you appear exactly where you saved.
I think gave over's should exist to a point, for example you may not like them in platformers but they do provide insentive to try and improve.
And more importantly they exist cause they're nessasary in games like rpgs/jrpgs cause if you didn't gave over after DYING in persona 5 and get sent to the load screen it would destroy rpgs as a whole.
"We have auto saves why is this still a thing?" Cause auto saves can fuck you over real bad, I can't tell you how many times I played fallout nv and because I just checked my inventory a second ago it auto saves then a plumet to my death 50 times cause it decided to save there. Or it auto saved as a got shot or something, these are very real problems. Saves allow me to go back maybe more than a couple hours so I can prepare better.
I can go "that save didn't work out, let's go to the save I made a week back ingame" Heck some games hinge on that fate extra is like the hardest game if you don't comb everything for items, gear and info and missing a smigde can cost you just as much as playing hard mode persona games. Heck sometimes a gameover is what I need to snap myself out of it so I can rest my eyes, or eat or socialize, take a break. And I'd say nowadays cheekpoints and such have gotten better that it's never really been an issue, *games don't always need to be faster to be good or that isn't the solution to making it better* Sometimes gave overs are visually appealing.
Heck like kingdom hearts or not (spoilers for three) There's a game over trick that's a really nice touch and a sweet addition (Spoiler over) Undertale has a cool game over taht certain characters will call out that they JUST killed you so how are you back!? I'm sorry you don't care for them but I think there's a viable list and growing to keep them more than getting rid of them.
Again david hack cage himself said "Game overs are a failure of the game design." And look at all his games, there are some incompleteable at points cause instead of letting you game over and try again he keeps the story going despite the growing flaws and plot holes, he's a known bad game designer and people use his games for jokes and memes and criticism (He tried to make a robot slavery game where they used black power as a symbol). Not to mention sexually harasses his female coworkers and is a huge racist.
Game overs aren't fun but they also don't *need to die off* cause alot of games depend on them, and even if they did die off? Tehy'll appear in other forms. Again jrpgs literally have a screen that says you died and takes you back to the load screen so you can organize a plan better, maybe you saved in an area where everything's 3o levels higher than you so you need to abandon your top save and go for the next and go a different direction.
Idk but that's just me.
Not to mention the memes.
If dark souls didn't have the "you died" or mario 64 didn't have bowser's laughing head half of our memes and alax's videos wouldn't exist
I’m not reading this shit.
I didn't read the whole thing because I'm lazy but I agree with the beginning, Mario Odyssey didn't have game overs and to me it really made me not care about the way I played (most of the time I was even watching something on the side), if I lost I'd just go back to the last checkpoint, so not so far back and loose some coins, coins that have no purpose outside of buying a single moon and cosmetics, not seeing my lives counter ticking down and risking being punished for playing the way I was playing made me not care at all
And yeah his points about rpgs not having to go through randoms encounter in the room/floor is...yeah it would be worst than even Mario Odyssey, dying would just be nothing
@@BabyEater20
Then don't waste my time replying with that.
ˆˆ; you're not gonna get a metal for saying you won't read it, it isn't even for you.
Gwt over yourself.
@Muhammad Aydin
Did you want a cookie? Who cares about you?
Interesting point. I disagree in some aspects because it gives charm to the game and Mario Maker? The gameover screen in Mario Maker is one of the fastest in videogames it's interesting you feel this way about that game.
In MM I feel like there are no downsides to a faster death/respawn, though. It'd be nice for every type of player on every type of level.
@@jankbunky4279 Nah I feel you, it's more efficient. But complaining about it because of MM? Now thats weird
I always have been annoyed about how needlessly long the death time is. At least let us skip it like in celeste
@@azure_wraith I feel like they've kept the deaths as long as they have because of how much spectation of other people playing the game has become an important part of the formula. Seeing all those death markers is a big part of the spectacle. (Still, an option to see some sort of replay with all the places people had died after completing a level would probably be more convenient. They already have a ghost of your own platforming in the editor testing mode, so they could even pull a full Super Meat Boy with it if they really wanted to.)
I mean if you're good you won't see game overs, for me a game over is like "you lost relax a bit and try again later"
To me, the "game over" screen is the way I know that I have to turn of the freaking console after wasting my 26 lives trying to complete a level. Without it my addiction would be so much higher
2:51 Probably the most accurate summary of Mario Maker 2's child made levels I'll ever see
Hi dad
translation of the title is just 'AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA'
not sure if it's meant to be the sounds of the fire bros or what someone thinks when they're put into this level
Christopher Moon Little Timmy’s first Mario Gaem
You again....?
relentless screeching.
Holy shit, that Yugioh-Ganon joke was perfect! You dare bring light into the Shadow Realm?
_"You must-- DUEL!"_
Nobody:
Game over: want to try again? Yes or no?
Who is crazy enough to choose no?
Game overs and stationary save points still have their place. All the explorative fun and challenge of Castlevania and Bloodstained would be lost if it just reset the room when you died. It's about becoming able to safely push your way to the next save point or warp room
Respectfully disagree with most of your points, but awesome video!
Well I disrespectfully disagree with your disagreement
@@flaviottyd I respectfully disagree with your disrespect.
I disrespectfully agree with all of alax's points. Fuck you, alax, you're totally right, you dumb piece of shit.
"Game Overs Need to Die"
Sonic Forces: Let me introduce myself
A perfect example of how removing game overs can further soil a game
@@LucasMBoysOurRoy That argument makes no sense. The game was already soiled hard, The lack of long deaths and gameovers merely just made playing through it an afterthought than an actual pain.
Sonic Forces did not suffer by lacking game overs, it lacked player agency.
ModeSeven That’s why I said “further soiled”. Forces has much worse problems, and the lack of game overs is a very small one compared to everything else. It’s more like the cherry on top of every other problem.
I probably should’ve clarified
@@LucasMBoysOurRoy you misread my reply. I stated the lack of game overs made the act of playing the game a more tolerable one. If there was a dark souls style 2 minute period every time you lost all your lives, THAT would soil it further as it'd be adding insult to injury.
You failed in this game you already aren't getting anything out of and on top of that the game is going to make you waste your time? I'd drop it in a heartbeat if I hadn't already.
WHAT WAS EVEN THE POINT OF RINGS 😭
Super Meat Boy hasn't been topped since when it comes to player death speed; however, this whole video kinda sounds like Egoraptor's complaints about Ocarina of Time.
"There's SO MUCH, GOD DAMN WAITING!"
Like so many impatient gamers have been complaining about second long jingles and such lately. Like, if time is that precious to you, why are you playing? Calm the fuck down, it's literally SECONDS. It's like whining that you have to wait 2 minites to microwave a hot pocket.
Granted, sometimes load times can take really long. Crash Team Racing has AWFUL load times and online gaming takes a hot minute to find a match. The death animation in Mario Maker 2? A slap on the wrist, calm yo' tits.
Mario 64, Banjo-Kazooie, Zelda, Metroid: NONE of these games would be as impactful without those little "You found the thing!" fanfares. I feel player deaths have a similar role in that regard.
But when its thousands on thousands on thousands of times it just gets grating. Theres only a certain amount of moons or items or missile upgrades in these games, but you can die an infinite number of times
@@pillowtalk__ Which is exactly why games that have you die thousands of times have short respawn times, while those that don't take longer.
@@enderallygolem and Mario Maker will make you die thousands of times
Fanfares are a sort of a reward, game overs are added punishments after you already been punished with death in the first place.
@@pillowtalk__ The Super Mario style games weren't designed with you dying a hundred times in a single room, unlike a lot of the *user* created levels of Mario Maker. Is it the Game Dev's fault for not thinking the player wouldn't play their game the way they thought?
"Do you know anybody trying to replicate Sonic's design because of how much attention its garnered?"
*Spark the Electric Jester 1 and 2 would like to know your location.*
You forgot Freedom Planet too.
@@ThatOneDudeWhoPostsStuff Speaking of Freedom Planet Two, where is it?
Nobody:
Alax: *I HAVE A FOLDER OF HANDS-*
...and feet with socks...
10:25 Waow I think I understand why you dont like Hollow Knight.
That's not even a hard jump
I'm sure I've done similar stuff in my time playing the game too, but still... That worm was telegraphed as heck.
@@jankbunky4279 Also I just realized that he had max soul, and could've healed at any time
whhyy
I assumed he just died there to get quick footage of dying in Hollow Knight for this video.
As a wise bug once said
"GIT GUD"
Could've talked about super meat boy where you literally respawn the frame after you die
this is a very good point, time to retry a challenge is an issue that needs to be closely balanced, or many players will give up on certain challenges. Things like having the bonfire be far from the actual boss/ threat is one of the top reasons players give up on dark souls. Being too forgiving can also be a mistake, part of the thrill of dark souls is knowing that if you die, you dead, fool- and it gonna take you a hot minute to get your souls back., if you can even manage it. so in that way, games with less forgiving retry mechanics become risk management simulators-which can actually be a really fun aspect of the game! "Do I go into the next room? or do I backtrack and heal up first?"and other such situations ad a layer of strategy to the game. but if your game doesn't gain anything from risk management as a game mechanic, cutting down on the pain the player experiences for failure is key to encouraging continued engagement. thanks for coming to my ted talk I'm here all week
i agree. I ragequitted dark souls 3 for a good half a year because i got pissed because i kept dying trying to get to the boss who is an annoying piece of shit so i stopped playing and didnt retry because last time i played it was hell. Even though I play hard games, I think i dont actually like the difficulty. Besides, if you want to play a game that is basicilly the same as learning a skill, then I'd rather just play fighting games. Which I do.
Just sounds like you're salty about losing to a bad level in 100-Mario endless challenge to me.
True
@Muse Suse ty
Iceypumpkin head agree
true
Not to be overly semantic, but 100 Mario Endless Challenge doesn't exist. It's either 100 Mario Challenge or Endless Challenge.
I really do like the stile of Mario Odyssey not having lives but having something of a little value being taken away if you die
Coins are worthless and only to buy cosmetics
@@dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668 "coins are worthless"
*Proceeds to explain why coins aren't worthless*
Ok.
I wish they did something where if you ran out of coins, you respawned back at the odyssey with Cappy worried about you, syaing you need to be more careful.
Funny thing is the game I've currently gotten back into helps supports this argument as well. The offbeat RPG Battlechasers Nightwar. It's a game that takes a lot of inspiration from older JRPGs (a little too much in places sadly but, it's still a fun time) but has a constant auto-save feature with no "save points" to be found. The game always keeps track of your progress to the point where you could turn the game off in a middle of a dungeon and continue from where you left off. The game even has a "save and quit" option in case you're not sure when you last "saved" to ensure you start back where you left off. And yes, you can save and quit in the middle of a dungeon whenever you please!
3 years later, game over times are so small that you don’t die.
Honestly I don't want game overs to go away.
Why not have it set to a difficulty?Like you're not going to see a game over on easymode or a practice mode but you could probably have it on a hard or expert difficulty. Just don't exploit them with saves, and game overs can mean something again.
Yeah, the fear of losing progress is actually a really strong tool that can help create some really tense moments.
Cat: "I can't read."
**Talks in text**
I think it depends on the pace of the game as a whole, if it's a fast paced game that requires lots on input at one time it's important to have the brief moment of pause if you mess up so you can recollect your thoughts and try again (i.e fighting games, sonic style platformers, arcade style games) But in a slower paced game with more to take in, it might be more ideal for players to be able to jump back in a little quicker (i.e open world, rpgs, adventure games) It just depends on preference. Maybe developers should have the first few fails be more pronounced and then allow a function for players jump back in quickly, such as continues, mash-outs or Salty runback mechanics which you sometimes see in fighting games.
Yeah, gonna have to disagree with you on this one man, I appreciate the fact that opinions are opinions, but honestly, unironically "Git gud".
You see Alax, not every game is the same. Celeste would be one of the worst platformers with slow respawn times and life systems, as well that a Mario game probably wouldn't be as good if you could just start 3 secs before you died.
I think one of the best ways how I see game overs is with a game called "Sonic 2", that game sure gave me hell, not gonna lie, and everytime I got a game over, I got frustrated... but, I realized... "huh, it seems that I am clearing Emerald Hill Zone quite faster compared to my previous attempts."
I have no idea how to express this weird feeling calling "progression", but that's one of the best things that Sonic 2 gave me, that's why so many people think it's the best sonic game... or even the best platformer game, the fact you start to see how well you're doing levels, and how the most annoying or hard obstacles that gave you trouble now seems like a breeze is just that satisfying.
H E C C, that's why the idea of speedruns exists, clearing a game as fast as possible, a.k.a mastering the game's mechanics and seeing how well you perform into a video game. That's why I think one of the most important factors of a video game is called "replayability", the simple fact that you can still have fun into a game even if you already beaten it or even 100% complete it, is what differentiates from good games, to amazing games. (I mean, if you are reading this comment stranger, what's your favorite game? and after answering that, how many times have you played that game? I am sure that number is at least higher than 1. And If it isn't, I would recommend popping your favorite game right now and have an amazing time with it again.)
Sure, not every video game should put game overs into them, I mean, how the hell would that work into Super Meat Boy or Celeste? And yeah, not every game needs be mastered to be loved. But I am sure that removing the concept of lives or game overs as a whole would hurt so many amazing games, instead of helping them.
I appreciate the sentiment that no tool is useless,
but at the same time, there is a reason why carpenters almost never use hammers.
@Arte71 I have a similar feeling with games that give you lives. I love Mario Odyssey but the fact it removes lives feels a little too handy cap for me. video games with lives feel like resources making you play smart, conserving lives so you don't make the same mistake twice and makes you think of another way around, in Mario Odyssey it feels like there are no consequences for dying except losing a few coins which hardly feels like a consequence sense coins are plentiful or if you have a ridiculous amount, basically do the same thing over and over until you get it right. But I see the problem with games with lives as well some where they are scarce or like a lot of Mario games cheat the system by finding a way to collect atone of live where the consequences of losing a life means nothing. I'm not saying some games should have lives otherwise they would be impossible or unplayable, especially if it's a game where its expected that you're gonna die a lot of times on the first level and further on.
I don't see how game overs improve the sonic 2 experience, you can still see your progression as you play even without the waste of time that game overs bring if you die quickly then respawn. In fact in my opinion game overs make me want to progress less because it waste my time and gives me fear to try something new to increase my progress because I don't want my time to be wasted by the game overs, over and over again, it makes me want to quit the game and play several months later when I forgot about what pissed me off. Celeste where even after like 30 deaths in one room I want to keep playing because I can get right back into the action.
Dang man you typin a comment to a youtube video or writing a five page school essay?
@@doginablanket4118 This took me like 5 minutes to type, besides the spelling errors I am quite proud of it tbh o3o
TLDR:
I ain't like waiting.
You know what is a lot better than Game Overs ? Wrong and bad ends.
Even just simple deaths animations can make game overs almost interesting.
Corpse Party is an example, where the wrong ends are very detailed...and disturbing.
Alax praises meatboy without realizing he is praising meatboy
Except for the retro levels, those make you skip cutscenes, watch a lives counter, kick you out to the map, thankfuly normal gameplay isn't like that
3:09 “I got all the Bsides” **Doesnt have any of the Bside hearts** wat
"Game Overs Need to Die"
Me:"Okay I REALLY believe you !!!"
?
@@AllStar909 ikr
What does this mean
Is that a just a pancake reference?
I'm glad Earthbound has its game over screen, it's so damn charming and that music, PHEW!
It really shows ness getting back up. When I played, I pictured hhim saying to himself as he faces the opponent that felled him "I can do this all day."
3:20
Hotline Miami, a game that will relentlessly drag you through the dirt, the split second you die you press 'R' to restart and youve already started the level
Video: Game overs need to Die
Me: *HMM... YES. THE FLOOR HERE IS MADE OUT OF FLOOR*
Game over might be an archaic relic of a time when how long you played was tied to how many quarters mom was gonna give you but it also provides a deeper incentive for not dying and makes overcoming an obstacle satisfying
I think it’s frustrating but there is merit to it lasting so long
There are better ways to punish players than ~1 minute game over screens (that's a worst-case scenario).
Forcing somebody to wait should not be a punishment, especially now that we as a society are busier than ever
@@harrylane4 if you're so busy then why are you still playing games?
@@pin-_-7777 would you like to spend 65 minutes of a slow dying and respawn animation?
@@NUKELEDGE well thats what we call a punishment for being bad at the game.
@@pin-_-7777 You didn't answer the question. If I took those 65 minutes out of the gameplay and put you in a room with that video on, which you be ok with watching the whole thing before uninterrupted gameplay?
Alax shared the same philosophy as one of the worst game devs ok existence: *"Game Overs are a failure of the game designer" - David Cage*
10:38 "Make it an option!"
In Crash Bandicoot 4, they do make it an option. At the beginning you can choose between Classic Mode (having lives with a game over taking place if you lose all of them), or Modern Mode (having a capless death tally that immediately brings you back without fear of having a game over) and, it works really well with me only having to wait 3 seconds for crash to die.
Super meat boy figured this out years ago and I'm sure it wasn't even the first
*Slowly Drinks Tea*
*Clears Throat*
“Hmmmm, Git Gud”
*Continues to Drink Tea*
The lives in Mario Maker are great for endless mode though.
Everytime you release a new video I watch teh Intro like 5 times because I like it so much. It just kinda slaps ngl.
It’s all about atmosphere and how iconic they are to gaming. I think they’re important.
9:24 bottom row, third from the left. Very nice hands, I'd love to get an applause from those hands
and I thought the "c0b" file was the best, thanks for show those hands c;
You made a pineapple video about Game Overs and you made a pizza video about death animations.
WHY’D YOU PUT THEM TOGETHER?!
Oh yeah, ten minute mark.
I get the video being a bit wrong but it’s not for the ten minute mark. Death animations go together with game overs it’s just that the video was mostly about deaths and not game overs, if the video was titled differently you wouldn’t care.
ImTheBluestBird Yeah, not angry, just thought it was weird.
I can understand not liking the long death screens
but saying that you dont want to finish hollow knight because you have to face challenges again, that you are most likely going to get put up again, every time you walk back you get better though, it doesnt make sense, if every game was where you just start back in the same spot you were last time it would be way too easy, and then theres no reason for healing stations either in the life based health system games since you can just get them all back by dying
but in games like celeste they work because after such a challenge you kinda deserve a checkpoint
btw if you like games like that i would reccomend katana zero, same death mechanic as celeste and feels just as good to play
Without Game Over if the Arcade genre was counted in this as well, then this wouldn't makes anymore sense at all. Have we all forgot that there's the game like GTA and some rated M games where the game over doesn't exist at all, when you can just die then respawn and repeating the same two steps as your heart contents even you die in stupid way as possible. Game Over was just only unique for the Arcade purpose, but if we talked about the non-Arcade video game especially, then it would be an optional if that game wanted the Game Over or not
I have a feeling that Alan wouldn't like Dark Souls.
Or Fighting games.
Or any game that punishes you for sucking for more than 3 seconds of yours time.
Fighting games aren't that bad though, you're very often sent back into neutral fairly quick, you often get a chance to turn the tides on another fresh round and when you lose you can jump back in to another fight, no intrinsic punishments and you've gained a better understanding of yourself and your opponent.
Except tekken7 load times, oof that's rough when someone wants to change character
ALAN
I think that one series where game overs are okay is fire emblem
Loved that the discussion of this video devolved into a rant on death animation time. As a BIG super meat boy fan I can't agree enough that self contained, room based challenges with death timers shorter that reforming meat outta thin air are the way to go with any precision platforming.
10:56 and another thing with BotW game overs is that they can be different a lot. Instead of a stupid set animation that will forever make me incredibly angry just by seeing a clip of it, in BotW the ragdoll animation honestly just feels really funny, enhanced by the fact that you know that you know both that you definitely messed up, as BotW never throws your nose or toe straight into a single pixel of spike or any other stupid crap like that, and also you know that even though you did mess up, you can get right back to somewhere close by. Plus, I just love watching Link just fly off a cliff after getting mauled by a Moblin.
Now microtransactions need to die
I can’t agree more.
NJG Me too
EA: NEVER!
That includes the "cosmetic only" ones
to me game overs arent the problem it's how they are utilized.
Then in darksouls, some bosses have a 1:1 sprinting back to actualy fighting ratio, which is bs. Sometimes it can be as bad as 4:1 for something like ng+ 4 kings.
Celeste is my favorite game ever. Like seriously it beat out Battleblock Theater in my favorites. But I’m happy you talked about it because from what I’ve seen on CZcams nobody talks about the mechanics of death and talk about “HEy, iT LOoKs GoOD AnD THe MUsIc Is GuD!” Like seriously yeah it looks incredible and the music is killer, but I like the fast resplendent because I will have a guaranteed chance to remember what I did wrong and fix it. Game Overs should meet their game overs like you said. Alright I’m gonna go do the C-Side of the Core in Celeste now. Wish me luck!