Chinese Miao Dao Two Handed Saber & Possible European Inspiration
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- Looking at the Miao Dao two-handed saber/sword, by LK Chen, and the possible European military inspiration behind its design.
LK Chen Silver Swallow Miao Dao: lkchensword.com/shop-1/ols/pr...
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"I'll show LK Chen cutting himself with the sword".
Luckly, that wasn't what it sounded it'd be.
I was worried
I also agree that the pipe-back blade design is probably due to European influence given the context in which it first appears. In the near future I am planning to do an in depth video going into the controversy surrounding the origins and development of the Ming dynasty dandao / changdao and hopefully make some things about the nature of its relationship with Japanese blades a little more clear.
Awesome, I look forward to it!
I'll keep my eye out for that to drop! 😁
In certain schools ofJapanese Kenjutsu, they use the Shinogi in a glancing manner as a way to engage the opposing weapon without risking bending the blade or chipping the edge. I'm wondering if the pipe-back can be used in a similar way. Perhaps I will need to get one to find out.
@@scholagladiatoria I just received the LK Chen Military Da Dao. Wait until you get your hands on one of those! It is a beast.
It is probably an attempt to modernize the Qing-era Changdao.
Given the Prussian influence on the Late Qing Military, the regional warlords & later the Republican Government, it is possible. The Germans did after all train Chinese divisions and sold them weapons (Krupp guns, Gewehr 88s and the iconic Mauser C96 etc.)
Two-handed sabers are probably my favorite type of sword. I also love the swiss saber.
For UK viewers, LK Chen swords are starting to arrive at The Knight Shop now.
Yes they have the first batch in stock right now, and another batch (the curved swords) on the way soon.
@@scholagladiatoria Given the overbearing laws we have here do these (and other similar swords) avoid the nonsensical "curved blade" issues? Can I (as a collector only) get one? My credit card hopes the answer is no. My interest in adding a few more interesting swords to my tiny collection hopes otherwise.
@@taylorfusher2997 What in the actual fuck are you talking about?
"I'm sorry, are you saying 'meow'?"...
😅
Would like to see more about this type of large, two handed sword like zweihander/ large longsword, Odachi, Miao Dao and how similar/ different are they to each other
The major difference in western and eastern sword design is that western swords are designed for countering heavier armour. Armour are way lighter in the east so they are more cutting and less blunt damage.
I noticed that dao and messer have similar translations, both imply a single edged blade of indeterminate length, which could either mean a knife or something akin to a saber.
Yes
"Dao" 刀 literally means "knife". "ChangDao" 長刀 means "long knife" and "DanDao" 單刀means "single knife"
@@kentl4386 bro I'm Chinese. I know.
@@SniperAngle12 Whoa sorry man
@@taylorfusher2997 what?
Well not really since Germans don't exactly call scissors or glaives types of messer like how Chinese call GuanDao and JianDao types of Dao if you know what I mean. :P
Great job summarizing this sword Matt! Of all the troublesome Dao to have to cover, miaodao is certainly a problem child that no two scholars will agree on :) Bravo on the discussion, and making the points accessible to everyone.
@@taylorfusher2997 what does this comment have to do with anything?
Hey, it’s cool to see someone interested in the Chinese weapons.
Like some people said, the Miao Dao as an historical origine in the Ming dynasty with the Dan Dao.
This blade a little bit longer and heavier, with a lot of defensive techniques against the spear.
I use this Dan Dao in armored fighting and it’s great to see how this weapon can be strong on hit and really quick in block and counter attack.
It’s now one of my favorite blade with the Chinese steel whip.
Thank you to talk about Chinese blades and theirs particularity.
I like the idea that Chinese sword desing wasn't stagnate but could adapt to new information and circumstances.
Since I haven't found it in the comments I feel like pointing out that the weapon shown at ~9:10 is not a Nodachi but a Nagamaki, characterized by the hilt that is longer than the blade. Gotta be pedantic here :^)
@@taylorfusher2997 Excuse you?
Well, it's actually a bit complicated the term "nodachi" since there is actually a historical Japanese source that calls a Nagamaki-like weapon a のべたち/nobe-tachi which "nobe" is an alternative way to say "no/野" in the term nodachi:
i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/93/a4/b293a4796386d29a5840c770e821db3e.jpg
The image I posted is of the Aizu Kage Ryu scrolls hosted at the Tokyo National Museum and the third scroll in that picture is a sword classification system of sorts. If you wanna know more, check out the comments of the "Japanese Sword Mythbusting - Part 2" on the Gunbai:Ancient Japanese Warfare blog.
Merci Matt !
I like when you track down engineering techniques through culture and eras.
It makes sense that this design was adopted in the early 20th century. Durability would not be much of an issue since no one was wearing armor at the time. Ming dynasty versions would have had to be more robust to withstand clashing with metal.
@@taylorfusher2997 lmfao what? 🤣
@@taylorfusher2997 tell me more
Cool to see the miao dao get discussed more in different martial circles.
The pipe spine is certainly one of the stand-out features of this sword, and is one of the reasons I personally enjoy using it. It allows for manipulation akin to halfswording, in various different combinations. And it's main play besides is very fast and agile, characterized by lots of twisting and somewhat hunched postures. For this practice, the weapon is perfectly designed in my opinion.
Yet as you said, it is very shrouded in controversy. There are many schools of thought trying to say miao dao dates back to Han Dynasty but this is patriotic propaganda. Two-handed swords and sabers? Yes. They indeed go way back. Miao dao? 20th century.
Even in that treatise you showed, called Dan Dao Fa Xuan, it's author, Cheng Zong You, explicitly states that his teacher learned from the Japanese.
So in both method of use and design, much of it has been inspired by it's Japanese origins. There are some who apparently don't care to admit that it seems.
Very interesting theory on the pipe spine originating from European sabers though! I can definitely see that being the case.... especially if that means making it look even less like a Japanese sword.
The inspiration for Japanese swords comes from the Tang Dynasty in China, while the inspiration for Ming Dynasty Miao dao comes from Japan. This is normal. I do not believe that ancient European countries did not learn from each other's weapons
china is well known for its cultural expansion and how much influence it has had, especially in the Asian sphere. It is always nice to have a reminder of how much influence they took as well.
a sword inspired by Japanese technology, later modified with European technology. speaks to how adaptive china is.
great video.
It was really a back and forth between China and Japan. The Katana was a descendent of the Tachi, the earliest examples of which are very similar to Chinese swords of the Tang Dynasty. To over-simplify, without Chinese swords, the Japanese sword would have a very different history, and vice versa.
@@ambulocetusnatans Not to mention the Mongol influence on the curve/final shape of the Katana
people always mistook adopting the Japanese sword as taking Japanese technology. They still forge it in A Chinese way in the Ming dynasty.
Cultural transfer is always so interesting.
@@ascetic_aesthetic
Controversial topic but the Steppe nomads of Asia may or may not have had a strong influence on the development of the Scimitar, the Messer, the dha, the sabre, the Dao, the katana etc.
Would love to see you and/or Matthew Jensen do a thorough test on both this particular blade and LK Chen's Niu Wei Dao, among other things.
watched a lot of weapons videos but i don't know if I've never realized about pipe-back swords. learning stuff all the time
8:40 It's not necessarily piracy, yes, that did happen, but most importantly, maritime overseas trade was causing inflation with too much silver flowing into the Empire, therefore the Imperial court banned trade. This led to a lot of smuggling. At the same time, Chinese smugglers noticed (remember this was Sengoku era Japan) Japanese samurai were great warriors, and Samurai who lost their masters or had escaped Japan found employment in smuggling syndicates as bodyguards and hitmen. Also I would suspect many Japanese Daimyos and Samurai who lost their lands ended up and pirates and preyed on smugglers and Chinese fishermen too.
That sounds like a great setting for a TV show.
@@pariator9026 It IS the setting for many C-Dramas
Good point.
@@oliviercoen2978 Sao Feng from Pirates of the Caribbean vibes
@@oliviercoen2978 Ok if you want to put it that way then yes.
That was really interesting, I do like you video's that deal with sword development and history.
That was a super interesting video. Thanks captain innuendos.
I am german, not Brittas boyfriend. I am no collector or martial art practioner, but reading german language books about old weapons since late 1970s, german language arms magazines since 1982 and have seen lots of weapon collections in castles and museums, also i am intrssted in all kind of history.
Starting in Napoleonic era, german ( in this days including austrian) soldiers noticed that the frech heavy cavallry swords had been more usefull for trust ( Stoß) than german heavy cavallry swords. Also that French cavallry men had a more thrust based training, than german more cut based training. In German- French war, as far as i know, in traditional mounted combat, french soldiers had been often better fencers, also french carbines and firearms training was better, so after 1871 a modernisation of german weapons and training was necessary. So the more thrustbased M1889 replaced former heavy cavallry Pallasch and also Säbel/ saber of light cavallry ( the ,Blüchersäbel was given to Mounted Artillry) . Also civilian german sport/ competition fencers noticed, that they often lost matches/ bouts? against foreign fencers, and switched from german to italian fencing style ( so Academic fencing is last relict of german fencing tradition).
The M1889 sent to China had of course not Prussian eagle, Bavarian or Saxon lion, nor Württembergian Deer as ,coat of arms', but Chinese dragon. A point i, a german from former kingdom Württemberg ( nowadays with former Grandduchy Baden- guess what? State Baden- Württemberg) i don' t like it, when a weapon from imperial Germany 1871 to 1918 is called ,prussian', because it is ,german'. The weapons and equipment was the same, but the used coats of arms had been different. There had been Prussian Army ( Including the troops of Grandduchies, Duchies , the operetta armies of principalities and free cities had been disbanded and the men included to prussian regiments, only when mobilizing Regiments of reservists of the principalities and cities appeared again). The Württembergian Army ( one corps) and Saxon Army ( two corps) had an own General Staff, allways under prussian command. Bavarian Army ( three corps) had an own General Staff, only in wartime under prussian command, and bavarian uniforms had been in ,bavarian' not ,prussian' blue.
To Swiss Army: Their cavallry was traditionally small and consisted only of Dragoner/ dragoons. Also to every Brigade ( Regiment?) a small number of horsemen, called ,Guiden' was added.
My comment may gives few to no information about german swords, but some basic information of german military based things of this era.
Interesting comment. 👍
This is very interesting, not least for which that the miaodao's size seems to eliminate most of the "problems" of a pipeback blade while keeping the primary benefits (light and nimble in the hand). "One man's trash" and all that.
I know it's not your expertise, but I'm glad you've made a small expansion into Chinese swords. Fantastic as always, Matt.
Yay! We finally get the review :)
I love when the best elements of history team up in one cool new thing and then get modern advancements in materials.
i love your content about chinese swords and weapons
The Prussian M1889 Sword. Pretty dang cool if I say so myself.
I own one my self and i really like it. Cuts great, food point control... the grip was a bit strange in the beginning, but you get used to it quiet fast. i really can recommend it
Do you perhaps have a video on the beautiful medieval arming sword that is ever present on your wall?
@Zoomer Stasi - There were actually 3 migrations to Japan: Jomon, Yayoi, and Kofun. Two of these had Chinese influences. The Jomon were mostly from Siberia, Northeast Asia, Korea, and Manchuria. The Yayoi were heavily Northeast Asian, but was a more diverse a mix from northern East Asians to southern East Asians (from Korea and Manchuria and Northern China to Eastern China to possibly Southern China). The Kofun migration was mostly/heavily Han Chinese from Central, Eastern, and Southern China.
Look up the latest gene studies about the Kofun about how they are mostly Han Chinese from Eastern and Southern China and how they have the strongest gene contribution to the modern Japanese.
That said, despite lots of evidence of significant genetic influences and mass migrations into Japan from Korean, Han Chinese, and non-Han Chinese peoples, that does not automatically equal the Japanese royalty descending from or having significant heritage from these people. It would be reasonable to assume they had these genetic influences, but we can't say for sure.
Sources:
Here are articles discussing how in terms of genetics, the Yayoi have some northern Han Chinese influences and some NE Chinese influences in addition to the typically known heavy Korean influence. The Kofun are mostly/heavily Han Chinese influenced.
Title: "The latest research in Japan: the descendants of modern Japanese or Chinese Han people have almost the same genetic characteristics"
"On September 18, according to the Japanese "Asahi Shimbun", an international research team composed of academic institutions such as Kanazawa University and Tottori University published a paper in the American scientific journal "Science Progress" that same day. Through the latest research, it is believed that The descendants of modern Japanese or Han Chinese and East Asians have almost the same genetic characteristics"
Title: "Ancient genomics reveals tripartite origins of Japanese populations"
"However, a shift toward East Asian populations implies the presence of additional continental ancestry in Yayoi. Ancient individuals from East Eurasia show a geographic cline from the south to the north on PC2: Southern China, Yellow River, Northern China, West Liao River, Devil’s Gate Cave, Amur River, and Baikal. The three individuals from the Kofun period fall within the diversity of the Yellow River cluster."
Here was another article from Ashai Shimbun: "DNA study points to three ancestral populations for modern Japanese"
"The Kofun people had genetic characteristics widely found among East Asians but not in the Yayoi people. They also shared genetic characteristics almost identical to modern Japanese.:
"Large-scale migrations from the continent date back to about 3,000 years ago during the Yayoi Period. The researchers said additional immigrant groups, such as Han Chinese, came to Japan, handing down textile, civil engineering and other technologies during the Kofun Period."
Japanese propaganda. It’s probably bogus results they made up so that they don’t have to be related to Koreans. The Japanese and associated weebs are always trying to legitimize themselves as an ancient civilization even though they weren’t.
@@FlippableFlappy This was done by tracing ancestry with genetics, so it's not like someone made it up out of nowhere. Being influenced by Han Chinese is not mutually exclusive from being influenced from Koreans. The Japanese were influenced by both peoples. In fact, the articles specifically say the Japanese have Korean ancestry from the Yayoi migration periods too. Yayoi were basically northern East Asians that includes mostly Koreans and northeastern non-Han Chinese (eg. Manchurians), and some northern Han Chinese to a lesser extent. The Kofun migration period being primarily Han Chinese (from eastern, southern, etc China) sounds logical when you realize that period coincides with the collapse of the Han Dynasty, the Han Dynasty's Three Kingdoms wars, and the collapse of the Jin Dynasty with the Invasion of the Five Barbarians. Centuries of turmoil would lead to mass migration to other parts of East Asia.
That is one of the most well sourced comments I've ever seen on CZcams. Good job!
Jomon, Yayoi, and Kofun are era divisions, not racial names. Changing from the Heian period to the Kamakura period does not mean that races change.
Communists in Japan and East Asia wanted their Japanese ancestors to be immigrants from communist countries. When there was no Photoshop, they wanted Jomon and Yayoi to be of different races, so they were forging a photo of Yayoi's bones by flipping the copier. Asahi Shimbun is working with communists. So Asahi Shimbun ignores the crackdown on Uighurs and does not report them. There are Japanese-style ornaments and tombs at the ruins in southern Korea. These are newer than those of Japanese ruins.
The South Korean government is filling the discovered ruins. So Korean scholars are protesting the Korean government.
Their ideals have been destroyed by the development of genetic analysis in molecular anthropology and the classification of comparative linguistics.
So the Communists spread the forged information to those who didn't know the situation.
The Japanese haplogroups are D1a2a and C1a1, which are unique to Japan. The Japanese language is Japanese-Ryukyuan, so it is unique to Japan.
When immigrants from East Asia become rulers, the Japanese language should be the Sino-Tibetan language family.
That's why Chinese people sometimes call Japanese people D-series.
Since China is a conquest dynasty, each dynasty has a different ethnicity and culture. So modern Chinese and ancient Chinese are different ethnic groups.
Around 1920, Sun Yat-sen created the concept of the Chinese nation based on communism.
This concept united ancient and modern China, justifying the rule of minorities such as Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans and Uighurs as Chinese.
Chinese (中国人) is a word that has been around for a long time, but the Chinese (中華民族) is a concept that was created around 1920.
Democratic groups of Chinese have rebelled against the concept of the Chinese nation (中華民族) as a political fabrication.
@@tn1881 Wait until you hear all national identities are political fabrications if you use genetics as a guage. Which is why we don't use genetics but use culture. Unless you are a nazi of course, Hitler loved that didn't he. Not a true german unless 100% Aryan!
Sun Yat-sen is a communist? Damn you are really speacial.
The longer hilt makes for a great leaver though, for quick cuts.
Love this channel. That is all.
This is exactly the sword I'd want to carry if people still carried swords 💚💜
A lot of European weapons were imported during the Taiping Civil War (1850-1864) as well. Firearms were most in demand, but various foreign mercenaries fought on both sides and there was a lot of illegal arms trafficking, so it'd also have been possible for new elements of sword design to enter China at that point without appearing in official records.
Any saber cut tests of lunges with and without moulinets? Be cool to see how much material each way could get through.
I particularly dislike pipe-back baldes, but this looks fantastic. VERY tempting....
The miao dao is a damn beautiful sword.
That Sword looks very formidable
Wow...what a blade. Im impressed.
Would probably make more sense to say "LK Chen himself, cutting with the sword." instead of "LK Chen cutting, himself with the sword." Seeing it written out is not so bad, but just saying it out loud can lead to some linguistic misunderstandings 😆
I noticed that too. I knew what he meant, but I can see how that might be confusing.
I really love this Miao Dao and I am wondering how easy it is to import it into the UK, it looks straight, but it has an ever so slight tender curve, hasn't it? Can I import it to the UK without any trouble?
What's that purdy sword with the fancy hilt, diagonally mounted on right side of screen? Has there been a video on that already?
Maybe chinese blacksmiths started to mass produce prussian desgned sabres for the military, and since they had become familiar with them they used some of their design aspects even for chinese swords.
Yes that is possible. I have in fact owned an old (maybe WW1 era) Chinese copy of a Prussian sword myself.
The Imperial Chinese army adopted German styled cavalry sabres at the turn of the century. You see the appearance of Kung Fu forms with them at the same time.
Can you give a look at Zaghnals? They're really cool!
For the import/ Export sabers, you could Look for "Aushilfssäbel". They were also used up to ww1
Just learned about this thing tonight. I'm writing a story and im definitely gonna put this in for some of my characters now xD
Do you think wearing rings can be some sort of protection for the hand when handling swords and other weapons without it getting in the way (not on all fingers but like 2-3 each hand?) I know it may not offer a lot but its something better than nothing. As well as being both esthetic and functional though minimal. Less weight more mobility. Big rings little rings. I remember a video you talking about swords or other melee weapon being a "what if" thing in modern society I think, I cant remember. Perhaps one that can articulate single fingers along with regular rings on other fingers? Example would be Captain Jack Sparrow - Pirates of the Caribbean. Vaan from Final Fantasy 12. On his thumb in a picture of him sitting down you can see he is wearing it as a ring would fit.
Id love to see you react to the Old Republic star wars trailers! they feature amazing lightsaber duels and it would be cool to hear your thoughts
would a more cohesive transliteration of dao be “blade”?
since that can generally be anything with an edge. the blade of the glave, etc.
the blade and scabbard of the Miao Dao will make total sense when mounted on a shorter more protective European hilt
Dao as a word is basically like messer; can be knife or certain sword length single edged wespons.
It's a bit more complicated in Chinese since dao/刀 can apply to glaives like the PuDao/朴刀 or GuanDao/关刀 and even things like scissor aka JianDao/剪刀. It doesn't seem like the word messer in German applies to polearms or scissors. :P
Ok, now you got me curious to look up austrian sabres in the book i have about them between 1848 and 1918.
There are several pictures of pipe back blades that aren't what the commisioned model of sabre atually had as dedicated bladeshape. (All of them officers sabres) So different choices and reusing of existing blades was common here too.
The dedicated commissioned austrian/austro hungarian pipe back blades i found are:
The M1904 cavallry sabre (the last model there was, but often also had the blades of previous generations and just the commisioned hilt),
the M1858 marine boarding sabre
the M1891 sabre for marine musicians,
And the M1850 Sabre of the "Arcieren Garde"
There is no mention why they chose different blade cross sections in the book, but the book mentioned when there were dedicated reasons for decisions (like the unsymmetrical hilt of the M1904 cav. sabre) or problems. (like wrong materials used that got detected in testing ect.
I've a question (many along the same vein, for now I'll stick to this one).
From what I've seen in multiple channels now, is that (unlike lightsabers) there is no one sword that fits all styles.
Every ⚔style or system is design for a one of few specific ⚔types with only so much overlapping. A crusader sword can't be used as a katana and vice versa, nor a shotel can be used as rapIer or a swordbreaker. But, back to that little gray area where most styles meet a common ground, I recently noticed the way to use a jian dao isn't that different from how to use a rapier, like verdadera destreza. Mostly, the bigger difference I noticed in those styles (with my untrained eyes, so please correct me if am wrong ) is the footwork, with Chinese swordsmen doing those fancy kneelIngs stretching one behind, and keeping their free hand stretched rather than on the hips, and quick wrist twists, and here is where my query: is there any european saber that can used the same as an oxtail dao (or twin dao), as efficiently as with its own system? Say, the swordsmean is using sabers with its particular style(s), then switches things by going all wushu, see if the oponent is caught offguard, what, if any, is/are the best sabers he could use? If there really is a saber that similar to oxtail dao, or am entirely off and need to watch your entire from vid 1 forget about any other
I just bought this like five hours ago and here’s the review 😂
Can we see how it was like before pipe back? And compare 2 property and construction?
As far as I know, the word "Miao Dao" appeared very late, but this form already appeared in the Ming Dynasty, but it was called "Chang Dao (long knife)" at that time. And some official documents at the time clearly stated that it came from Nodachi.
I think matt mentioned that too, but i guess hes curious about the exact blade profile of miao dao because its different than the ming dynasty blades. Mia dao is pretty much 20th century sword although derived from older blades so its used surprisingly reacently just century or so.
@@lalli8152 I find this whole conversation very strange tbh, we wouldn't talk about early 18th century cavalry sabres and late Victorian ones being completely different weapons, even if they show much greater divergence than Ming Changdao and republican Miao Dao. The Miao Dao is a form of Chinese sabre that starts to appear at the turn of the century, but we know that two handed sabres of varying specifications had been in use continuously since the late Ming.
@@Sifuben Maybe not completely different weapons, but actual sword geeks will go in lenght about where specific thing came from. For example more typical saber, then how they went to pipeback in england, dropped it went to different blade style. Also just all the different patterns of sabre its no different than studying all the various military dao designs in china, and figure where some exact design choise came etc. Its just curious thing why chinese went with that blade profile all suddenly when their older swords didnt have that. Pipeback blades are bit odd, and rare thing anyway i think for good reason. They have their benefits, but huge draw backs too, but this chinese sword seems to fix some of those problems. It still would be fairly fragile edge compared to nodachi or older two handed chinese dao designs, but very keen, and slicy against soft targets like flesh for example.
@@Sifuben we absolutely talk about how weapons evolve. And this is no exception. It has a clear lineage but during the turn of the century the weapon adopted European influences and became something slightly different.
@@adambielen8996 yes, but that isn't really the tone of the video, although tbf to Matt he's drawn heavily from Ben Judkins article which while interesting and having good information suffers from being overly taxonomic and glossing over the Qing use of Zhan Ma Dao (a common phenomenon in Chinese martial studies because there's less widely available written material)
9:08
Could be wrong, but that art depiction looks more like a nagamaki than a nodachi.
Is the 'pipe' hollow like an actual pipe? Or is pipeback a bit of a misnomer and just means the blade has a thick rounded spine?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall in a previous video that Matt released on pipe-back swords that the origins of the pipe-back in Europe actually might have come from the Ottoman Empire. So the Miao Dao would be a weird Chinese sword with design origins in Japan adopting a pipe-back European sword blade that was adopted from the Turks... My head hurts now... :P
It's one of the most sexy two handed swords ever made.
Maybe some pirate tried combining a tach or odachi and kinda jerryrigged it to fit into a Chinese dao or jian handle much like a wodao/wātou which were rare cross-breed blades used by chinese, Korean, and Japanese pirates.
8:51 yes, they were rowin' in !
Do the Chinese have any manuals that teach usage of sword ?
the book that you are showing pictures from should have mentioned this 'saber' can be used for thrusting like spear and cutting like saber. it should also has a hand length of blade section close to the handle that has no edge for hand grabbing and better two-handed control. not sure if this blade has it, but good blade indeed. good design. foreign import design of pipe-back blade or self developed, using a light weight but reasonably strong blade design on heavy two handed blade is smart.
I want every LK Chen sword I see on here!
(For the sake of clarity, I will refer to the earlier Ming version as the Dandao and the later descendant as the Miaodao.)
My theory, based on what I understand, is that the earlier Dandao is meant to be used as more of a sword: it's more curved, (I assume it to) have a saber grind and tapering tip, and if you look at the Dan Dao Fa Xuan written at the period (translated by Jack Chen, which is where he got the name for his website Chinese Longsword from) it has more "traditional" techniques: feet lifting and moving, the sword high and low, and many cuts. However, by the time of the Miaodao, it was meant to be more of a polearm, and emulate more of a spear/bayonet role that would be repeatedly thrusted while charging but still kept a cutting capacity. In that role, this design would make sense: a long, straight blade with fairly constant width that is light and nimble.
@scholagladiatoria hey matt. I have a video idea hope you like it : I was wondering how cavalry worked. (charges especially) cause from my perspective they should get killed instant. Bigger target to arrows, hard to protect horses so very vulnerable to anything striking the horse. Horses basicly appear to me like a massive weak point. So how was a cavalry charge effective? How did They hinder enemys from just killing their horses or cutting their legs? Greetings hope u like my video idea :)))
I know what I want for Christmas 😉
2 handed cut oriented swords are 1 of the best secondary weapons for citizen militias even in the age of firearms
Militias usually used a crossbow in conjunction with the miaodao, there is a manual illistrating that.
Bit of an odd point nit-pick to pick up on, but I've wondered about this before and this is kind of a question to everyone: why do you refer to those very large European swords as zweihander, spadone or montante? I know it'll be to do with Italian and German martial sources we still have access to, but I'm curious to why you prefer them.
I like the term greatsword (just as a useful, modern term) because it seems to just be a clearer, distinct term for referring to this "class" of very large sword that cannot be worn. "Zweihander" just means "two-hander", which is vague. "Montante" apparently means "mast
/pillar" which is an interesting metaphor I suppose. "Spadone" means "broadsword", which is again, vague. Using these terms is perhaps useful to talk about specific, regional styles of sword; but to use them to refer to a whole category seems a bit suboptimal to me
I think it more accurately refers to the style of the swords. By the broad definition of greatsword, a nodachi can also count as a greatsword, but it clearly doesn't look like the European greatswords. An enlarged longsword would also count as a greatsword and somewhat look like the European greatswords yet at the same time isn't quite the same thing. While on the other hand, montante/spadone/zweihander while having slight regional differences, have a very clear commonality between them in that they have a ricasso, spurs at the end of the ricasso and their use sometimes involves gripping the ricasso. But this is just my opinion and i am merely an enthusiast with no real credentials to back up my claims.
@@SniperAngle12 Yeah my use of "greatsword" makes no distinction between culture or style. While I am also no expert, and I agree that most depictions of montantes/spadones/zweihanders have these spurs/lugs, there are also examples that are just very large longswords. The inclusion of side rings is also common for weapons referred to as montantes/spadones/zweihanders so perhaps that's an additional definer?
I suppose my point is often that montante/spadone/zweihander alludes to a level of specificity that is almost never actually being attempted, so it seems a bit confused. Greatsword, while more vague, seems more accurate most of the time. "Europe greatsword" would perhaps be the right level of resolution for most situations when people use montante/spadone/zweihander - but that's perhaps a bit too clunky. I also think that a lot of people like to use non-english words just because they think it sounds fancier tbh, even when it means something as useless as "two-hander" ^^
@@tommeakin1732 that's certainly right haha. Greatsword might be a good umbrella term to describe the 3 swords.
Is there any difference between Zweihander, spadone, and Montante I wonder
All of those terms are a lot more fun to say 😉
Thank you for posting this video... your explaination are very plausible...and even China did have its own indigenious design on swords that does not mean , stop from absorbing ideas from other nations as well. However there is something that might need further research is that the modern miaodao might have " slight different interpretation especially prior 1949 and after 1949. It does have certain political definition actually because Miaodao under Guoshu of the Republican era could have some differences compared to Miaodao under Wushu. This is not meant to create arguements among practitioner but Guoshu under Republican era meant to operate in the light under the conflict of war and national survival mode. Whilst Wushu operated under subjectively peaceful terms and nation building. IF any of these differences can be highlighted , it would be a good information to study how modern miaodao evolved even within modern Chinese history as well.
I never noticed Matt's like 6'4" that sword comes up to my chin!
I'm only 6'1"
I forgot you took the scabard off when you measured it
During Ming dynastic book (紀效新書) that Dan Dao (單刀) is 208cm and weight aroud 1.6kg. I wonder is that possible to make a sword such light without pipe-back?
刃長五尺，後用銅護刃一尺，柄長一尺五寸，共六尺五寸(208 公分)，重二斤八兩 ( 1.4752 公斤)
營造尺: 1 尺-> 32公分
明 斤: 1斤->590g 1兩->36.9g
1900 Chinese officers looking slick in those uniforms.
You cracked the case! Chandao literally mean Langmesser
It's sort of wild imagining this as a 20th century sword
Stainless steel is okay but brass doesn't rust either and it looks a lot better and more traditional. Though I'm sure LK Chen would be happy to make that for you if you ask nicely.
I yve to confess to some disappointment that we didn't get a cutting demo here. I'm a patient dude, but homie... you gotta cut some stuff!
😍 😮 that blade.
What kind of armor would a Chinese soldier wear with such a sword? I’m curious how they would kitted out, with such a weapon?
The origin of Miao Dao is more possible derived from Japanese swords in Ming dynasty of China. But double handed swords were popular in China 2000-1400 years ago in the period of Han and Tang dynasties. Japanese swords were mainly derived from Tang swords.
Okay even The typical cross session introduced during the time of the ming was not recognized as something from tang,nodachi appeared during the Nanboku-chō period and a sore type not often acknowledge blade development history.
"Wantō (湾刀): Early Curved Japanese Swords" on Gunbai.
This sword is created by general Qi ji guang i think during the ming dynasty to combat japanese pirates. The katana is a formidable weapon and they made this blade and there's specifically a moveset with this blade to defeat pirates.
katana, It is a dao used by the ancient Chinese when they moved to Japan (ancient Japan before the 13th century was the history of the establishment of a regime in China). It is similar to the Chinese Tang dao 唐刀 and miao dao苗刀.
How would the wodao relate to the miaodao? Are they related?
dao is the pinyin of chinese word 刀，it is just the sword.
@@yuluoxianjun cool, thanks. 😎👍
ever see "Iron and Silk"?
(the book is tremendous)
he has a 2-handed sword
but doesnt seem quite
the same as this one
I saw the movie for "Iron and Silk" and the protagonist is using a changjian/长剑 which isn't exactly a changdao or miao dao like the one here since it's a double-edge straight sword.
Never hear it referred to as "pipe-back". Always heard it referred to as "having a gutter/blood groove".
Is the pipe back blade the same as the t back on a kyber knife from Afghanistan?
Similar, yes.
@@scholagladiatoria thankyou. I had a feeling they were similar. Thankyou for your channel. I learn emencely from you.
Matt did a video on this before and it seems like the European pipe back might have been inspired by t-sections seen on blades from areas influenced by the Ottoman Empire like Afghanistan. Check it out if you're interested: czcams.com/video/aK34V1P07bs/video.html
15:12 I suppose the reason that pushed the Prussians to choose to equip their officers with this kind of blade is above all logistical. An officer actually has little opportunity to use a sword other than as a "staff of command" in these newly dominated eras of firearms becoming truly effective in these times. It also seems to me that ordinance pistols take on the role of a tool of coercion in these periods and make the sword all the more symbolic. So why equip officers with durable blades when a less expensive sword in materials can do the trick? Especially since it seems to me that Prussia at the time needed its steel in order to create an efficient railway for the movement of its troops (something which will be at the origin of the formidable logistical efficiency of the German army in 14-18).
@@taylorfusher2997 think you're ask it on the wrong channel.
best sword i ever owned
Grammar. "This is a video of LK Chen cutting with the sword himself" is much better than "This is a video of LK Chen cutting, himself, with the sword".
In a recent video I thought to myself: "...Is he saying Meow Dao...?" Now I can't stop hearing it. I'm so sorry, Matt, LK. New dad brain, pay no mind.
The Miao Dao was developed by General Liu Yuchun who was known for his Duilu Taizu Tongbeiquan. He acquired a Ming era two handed saber system from Xie Yutang. Xie Yutang’s system is contained in the first of the two main Miao Dao forms taught. The second form was Yuchun’s own interpretation of two handed saber usage and its usage is radically different from the first set. Much of the second set seems to have been taken from a staff form called the Feng Mo Gun.
The Miao Dao is extremely light to support the mobility and actions required by the second form. Since the Fengmogun used a wax wood staff, a two handed sword borrowing its methods would have to be very light, and not too much over the weight of wax wood staff. As such Yuchun probably asked for or specified the lightest possible saber geometry for his weapon design. That means either a heavily fullered design or a pipe back, with the pipe back winning out for Yuchun’s desired form usage.
The Miao Dao is a counter spear weapon and Yuchun also developed a two person spear vs Miao Dao set.
The Miao Dao were known to be somewhat delicate in usage, and there are a number of reports of them breaking when employed against the Japanese Gunto in service at the time.
As an aside I believe LK Chen’s Miao Dao is a bit short. The hilt is supposed to be around 25% of the weapon length. The reason for shortening the blade could have to do with issues surrounding heat treating very long blades at his shop.
greetings, first of all I would like to tell you how much I enjoy your videos.... I would like to suggest you to take a look at the movie Alatriste (2006), Viggo Mortensen, spain XVII century rapier galore !!!!
What "back blades"?
I dont understand
Pipe back blades
if I were to give a rough guess as to why they adopted the pipe back blade in some parts of Europe is probably because they thought the pros outweighed the cons so went with it
Why did countries like Prussia go to pipeback blades after Britain and France had dropped them? (Why did Britain and France go back to fullered blades?) Why did the Chinese 20th C miaodao adopt pipebacks?
Simple. Every design has advantages and disadvantages. *And "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."* 😜
(Seriously though, when we talk about principles of evolution, the rigorous principles of it qua biological evolution are *sigh* rarely properly understood by people talking about cultural/technological evolution--especially (double sigh) for those of us geeking out over weapon functionality. Natural selection doesn't "nitpick" on designs that fit any niche, especially when they're, on balance, approximately as functional as each other. *All* factors matter, including and especially cultural. And what, ironically, is often a HUGE cultural factor? Whether people *believe* a design is better--whether "time tested" and traditional OR the opposite. Regardless of any empirical truth. [If anything, one might say the most revolutionary mindset is the guts to say, "eh, six of one half dozen of another." 😏])
@@taylorfusher2997 🤦♂️
As a native german speaker i also want to point out that one of the peculiarities of this sword´s name is that it is almost identical to the german writing of how a cat sounds.
Miao Dao, "Miau" makes the cat, in german. Spoken it gets even worse as the combination a-o is so similar to a-u, at least in german.
苗刀,its pin yin is miao dao.means Miao nation s sword.Miao苗 is one of the 56 chinese nations.they mainly live in south west China,where there are many high trees and mountains,snakes.
@@yuluoxianjun China has some incredibly beautiful regions.
But my comment was mostly about how the name of a region and the perception about a cat meowing sounds like in german is near identical.
mai dao is more than 2000 years old, i saw some one in north west china training this old sword. in 14 century one general used almost the same sword that is not mai dao but copy of katana.
Here’s a link to the Miao Dao Master Tian Xiufeng’s demonstration video: czcams.com/video/89ZZPfc0Pak/video.html
Groove part is called Hi in Japanese. Hi means gutter, which is the Japanese word for liquid drainage. Muscles that receive a strong impact contract. The contracted muscles stick to the blade like a sucker. By removing air and blood from Hi, you can pull out the blade from the muscles that stick like a sucker.
Since the 10th century, China, Mongolia and Korea have been importing katana from Japan. They couldn't beat the Japanese who use katana. China developed Qijiadao, wodao, and miao dao based on katana and used them in the military.
These are 16th century Chinese records.
Min's General Qi Jiguang (1528 - 1588)'s military book Jixiao Xinshu "This was the first time I knew this when a Japanese samurai attacked China. They moved like a dance, and the forward rushing force seemed to flash light, and our Ming soldiers were just distracted. The Japanese are very active and move about 3m at a time.
Since the length of katana is 1.6m, it will be attacked even at a distance of 4.8m. It is difficult to approach with my soldier's sword, it is too late with a spear, and if I encounter it, everyone will be cut off and killed. This is because their weapons are sharp and they are free to use powerful and heavy swords that can be swung with both hands. "
明 戚继光 纪效新书
此自倭犯中国始有之。彼以此跳舞光闪而前，我兵已夺气矣。倭善跃，一迸足则丈余，刀长五尺，则丈五尺矣。我兵短器难接，长器不捷，遭之者身多两断。缘器利而双手使用，力重故也。
Min Martial Artist Cheng Zongyou (1561-1636) Martial arts book Dan Dao Fa Xuan "We call that Japanese weapon dandao. Use a swinging sword with both hands.
This is a technique unique to Japanese people. The technique is well trained, precise and solid. Japanese swords are easy to handle, and each one makes sense, including the handle and scabbard. No other sword can match the Japanese sword. A well-polished Japanese sword reflects the light of the sun and hits our eyes.
The light makes our hearts cold. In Japanese swordsmanship, the change from side to side is strange and mysterious, and it is not predictable to ordinary people.
Therefore, even if you use a long-handled weapon such as a spear, you will always lose to the Japanese sword. "
明 程冲斗 单刀法选 单刀说
器名单刀，以双手用刀也，其技擅自倭奴，锻炼精坚，制度轻利，靶鞘等物，各各如法，非他方之刀可并，且善磨整，光耀射目，令人心寒。其用法 左右跳跃，奇诈诡秘，人莫能测，故长技每每常败于刀。
Min's military strategist Heliang chen's military book Zhen ji "The Japanese thief's attack is only hit twice or three times with katana,
Often I can't prevent it. You should know the ingenuity of their katana sword technique. "
明 何良臣 阵纪
军中诸技，惟刀剑法少传。若能滚入，使长短兵不及遮拦，便为熟矣。如日本刀不过三两下，往往人不能御，则用刀之巧可知耳。
Chinese Ming Dynasty Military Studies Mao Yuanyi (1594-1640) "Katana is extremely robust and sharp, The Chinese sword is not as good as katana.
Mongolian scholar Zheng Si-xiao (1241-1318)
"Even if ten Japanese people encounter 100 enemies, they will fight against them. If they don't win, they all fight until they die.If they do not die in the war, they will be killed by the king's hand when they return. Japanese women are also very temperamental and should not be attacked.katana is extremely sharp. "
鄭思肖『心史』中興集 元韃攻日本敗北歌
倭人狠不懼死，十人遇百人亦戰，不勝俱死，不战死，歸亦為倭主所殺。倭婦甚烈，不可犯。幼歲取犀角刈 小珠，种額上善水不溺，倭刀極利，地高險難入，可為戰守
The Japanese were mercenaries from Southeast Asia to India.
According to British soldier Sir Edward Michelbourne (1562-1609), the Japanese were feared throughout Asian countries.
"The Japons are not suffered to land in any port in India (Asia) with weapons; being accounted a people so desperate and daring, that they are feared in all places where they come."
a while back i saw a video talking about a Yue Fei Dao, a chinese sword where the hilt was the same length as the blade, made famous by a general of the same name who used it to fight mounted opponents. is this another derivation of the dandao, or did it develop independantly? I always struggle to find sources on it, and if you have any knowledge of it i would love to hear it
I'm not familiar with Chinese examples but this sounds very much like a Japanese Nagamaki, so perhaps another case of being inspired by Japanese swords and fighting styles.
@@rabidfurify No the other way around, Nagamaki is derived from the Nodachi, which is inspired by the Chinese Zhanmadao.
@@lolasdm6959 it's not, nodachi came around during a time when Japan didn't have contact with China and two-handed sword usage fell out of favor in what is now China, you can also just look at that the previous Dynasty(song) two-handed swords to see the difference.
@@eagle162 What? Fallen out of use? Sure if most soldiers never seen a two handed sword in their entire career, then yes, two-handed swords were pretty much always out of use in China. Two-handed weapons in China were always speacialist weapons for elite troops.
What do you mean Japan didn't have contact with China, Japan had constant contact with China since the Han dynasty, merchants come and go purchasing and selling on Chinese markets. Swords can be traded.
Zhanmadao first appeared in China during the Han dynasty, 206 BC - 220 AD, Nodachi appeared centuries later during the Kamakura period 1185-1333.
To say Zhanmadao came from Japan is the mark of ignorance. In fact the Japanese had the word "Zhanbato" before the word "Nodachi", meaning they were probably running around with imported weapons before they figured out how to make their own.
@@lolasdm6959 what I mean is Japan cut contact with Mainland Asia this happened a few times in history and contact does not go that far back, this is literally mention by Qi Jiguang discussing their lack of two-handed swords which is why he commissioned the creation of what is called miao dao nowadays the original name was wodao (literally meaning Japanese sword) Nodachi came around during the Nanboku-chō period,no Zanbatō is a much later name and there's actually no such thing as a Japanese
Zanbatō it's just a Japanese pronounciation for a Chinese weapon, it's a name used for a bunch of different weapons in media like manga or video games which is where the confusion comes from.
Check out ZHAN MA DAO (斬馬刀) and CHANG DAO (長刀) on great ming military and other sources link there.
1000th like.