Were dogs originally food? (and other speculations)
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
2:16 Controlling a wolf's breeding
4:47 Was dog domestication deliberate?
6:56 Thanks to Keeps
8:38 Why domesticate dogs?
10:47 Were dogs food?
14:17 Were dogs ritual tools?
17:37 Dogs as fish eaters?
20:40 What does dog domestication say about us?
David's great lecture on dogs
• The History of Dogs: e...
Main source:
Losey, Robert J., et al. “Dogs were domesticated in the Arctic: Culling practices and dog sledding at Ust’-Polui.” Journal of Anthropological Archaeology, vol. 51, Sept. 2018, pp. 113-126, doi.org/10.1016/j.jaa.2018.06....
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Stefan! A khanti or mansi guy from Gari in Sverdlovsk region (that's in the same general area as Ust-Poluy) once told me about how his father treats his hunting dogs: he chooses a puppy, the puppy lives with him in the house (as opposed to other dogs), follows him everywhere, the master tries to teach the dog all the tricks, but only for one season! if the dog fails on the first few hunts or turns out to be too slow, the master kills it. That always happens before the dog reaches 1.5 years of age. They consider spending more time on a dog that is not too bright to be a waste of time.
Thanks for the hair, Keeps!
The fact that they bothered to bury the dogs at all must mean something. It involved a lot of work. If they were simply being culled they could have been removed from camp and would have been quickly scavenged by bears, etc.
Hmmmm. Having written that, it occurs to me that perhaps burying them was meant to avoid attracting bears, etc. to the camp. Disposing to dead livestock is still a problem in the American West because the carcasses attract bears.
Edit: I wrote the above before the end of video. You do address the meaning of burials at the end.
I believe that wolves are initially used as some type of "emergency" food in cases unable to hunt. Why not other animals like deers? Wolves are one of the few species which run in packs and if caught as puppies accept humans.
What is the key thing to survive for a tribe? Enough food. Protection would be a secondary need.
When you have enough food the tribes could feed wolves as well. And if there is no or less food the wolves become food. I would not be surprised if wolves are grown up only from spring until winter. After that, it would be easier to catch new ones.
But as young humans like to become friends with animals some may be staying with the tribe and domestication begins. Then wolves are used for hunting, protection, and so on. Typically, when we are forced to eat our friends we build rituals around them.
howdy from australia please look up aboriginal 50.000 year old mystery by zohar stargate ancient discoveries and king tut gold boomerangs and australian pyrmids turkey and other places in world with aboriginal symbols real history never taught why ? 120.000 or 50.000 years ago or more is a ? no lie all true please look it up tell me what you think in your own time is it fact or fiction? the truth is out there now think with open mind because it will blow your mind .aboriginal world ancestry all of it ? love if you done this cheers ray
"I'm more of a catboy" - Stefano Milo 2024
He knew what he was saying
nya
me too lmao mini tigers ftw
Khajiit knows many things
Maybe a T-shirt idea… 😂
Thanks for having me!
Best collab partners ever!
I adore your channel! So excited to see you here!
@@ArtisticlyAlexisthank you!!
@@electra424Stefan’s a great friend
Thanks for being. :)
The consensus of papers that I have read is that we did not try to domesticate wolves, because that is well-nigh impossible even with modern technology. Rather, we provided an environment that the wolves adapted themselves to. As you speculate about 6 minutes in, we provided a kind of selection pressure that chased off or killed those wolves who were unsuitable to be around our communities, and tolerated those who were more suitable, and the wolves themselves did the rest.
In a way it worked the same with cats. They were attracted to the bird and rodent pests that were drawn by our food storage, and those who could tolerate people found easy pickings and domesticated themselves.
That's much more in tune with how natural selection works than any idea that we grabbed predators out of nature at random and tried to tame them. We simply provided a new kind of niche for them to move into on their own.
Yes but why wolves and cats and not other animals?
@@saratemp790 Wolves and wild cats were intelligent, social, meat-preference omnivorous mammals that served well as hunting companions and ratters respectively. Eurasia is without other beasts that meat such criteria.
Makes sense, the amount of calories from our middens likely sustained many types of animals, as we now see in urban environments. With dogs especially, once we had a "friendly" population near to hand, we could develop some of them into a *useful* population
I'm of the opinion that cats domesticated humans.
I have Robin birds in me garden , who are very tame towards humans . They view us as cattle . Dogs wolves are very social animals , and like to hunt in social groups , they are also mostly omnivorous Similar to humans . So I don't see the domestication being an issue , its a very natural alliance
Why not all at once?: "This animal that keeps me warm at night, protects me and helps me hunt, that has good skin to make clothes, that also helps me transport things, that is fun to have around, that follows me everywhere...plus it's tasty if I can't find deer!!" To me they all seem like good reasons to domesticate dogs. Pigs are also very intelligent, they have good leather and are also used to find mushrooms, by the way.
"Three Dog Night".......means you need three dogs to snuggle with to keep warm. !!!
The wide-eyed malformed doggy clips when you mention eating dogs are such a funny touch
It's a great Sunday morning when Dan Davis History and Stefan synchronize their video drop at the exact same time to the minute.
💯
I like how you say that dogs may have been bred to be sacrifices when you show a clip of a pug. Considering that I think of pugs as a "sacrifice" to humanity's sense of inhumanity. The existence of a pug is such a cruel existence. That sound they make is them struggling to breath. Having bred them is one of the cruelest things humans ever did to dogs. (If you have a pet pug I don't think you're a bad person. You likely love that dog and it deserves to be loved. It's just part of a dog breed that shouldn't exist.)
Curious why the obvious security feature of having a watchdog that barks escapes consideration. Given two adjacent competing clans, and the fact the vast majority of warring casualties occurred in dawn raids, then the clan with dogs has a massive advantage.
I lived out in the Mexican countryside for a year and in a Mexican town for the past dozen years. Dogs are definitely used as security systems in both places. In town people have roof dogs to discourage thieves from entering a house from the rooftop patio. In the countryside, they tie the dogs up around a perimeter (and also use cactus as barriers).
One thing I’ve noticed is dogs in Mexico learn early about the thrown stone. Simply bending down and pretending to pick up a stone can be sufficient to ward off an aggressive dog.
I noticed this omission too… and I think even wild dogs would be useful to warn the humans they were more familiar with to any unfamiliar animal’s approach.
Humans would logically reward such behaviour and the wild dogs would continue to follow that group around.
An excellent point! It is worth noting that the domestication process would have to be fairly far along for barking dogs though...wolves don't bark.
I read an interview with a police chief, who said that the best watchdogs are not big ones like German Shepherds, but little yappy dogs, because their barking is the most annoying, and will bring the neighbors to check things out. 😅
@@zolacnomiko Selective breeding for barking is not something I’ve ever thought about.
I think you’re theory of culling violent dogs/wolves is spot on. Actually it is a practice that still takes place in my neck of the woods. Sadly. I live in Northern Canada, and there are several remote communities where dogs, often huskies, which are much more closely related to Wolves, often are allowed to wander the community. With time however, if these dogs breed, and their population grows beyond the means of the “owners” ability to feed them, they start to revert to pack mentality. And as these packs grow they become aggressive and less domesticated. There was a case in recent years where a person in one of these communities disappeared, and was later found to be eaten by a local pack of wild dogs. Very sad, but following this all the dogs that showed aggressive behaviours and were not living with a member of the community (ie domesticated), well, they were all culled. This practice has happened for years in many northern communities. Unfortunately, without proper monitoring of the dogs and their breeding habits the dogs that aren’t cared for will have to fend for themselves. I believe other methods are currently being employed to monitor community dogs, however it can’t always be kept under wraps.
A reliable and reputable spay and neuter program would be awesome up North, but I don’t think we’ll ever get one that people aren’t just a little suspicious of. Esp given the reports of pets being stolen or destroyed by some of the less ethical charities that have tried.
And even if we did, there are “rescues” in the southern portions of the country that almost seem to turn “puppies from up North” into a business. When I lived in Winnipeg, “it’s a rescue from up North” was a very popular breed that fed directly into a certain type of white liberal’s preconception of what Indigenous communities are like. They make too much money off these dogs to want to stop the breeding.
About three decades ago I lived half a year in Dawson City and the dog situation was depressing. In the summer, all the university students showed up to work in hotels etc. Hundreds. Some percentage adopted puppies, cause puppies be cute! Then fall arrives and they realize transporting a dog back home is expensive. And their landlord/dorm doesn't allow dogs. And have you checked out vet bills? Suddenly all these abandoned, young dogs are running around town. Unfixed, homeless, and hungry. Many fell to the dog catcher who didn't actually do a lot of catching. But some I'm sure survived to produce more puppies for the next season, starting the cycle all over. Really sad.
@@CorwinFound I hear what you’re saying about Dawson. It’s the same where I live in Whitehorse. What I’m talking about is the communities that are essentially reserves. We don’t actually really have many reserves up here, but communities that are mostly made up of First Nations members. And before I go on, I really need to emphasize that I respect the hell out of the First Nation’s people. What they have had to endure since colonization and the forced joining of a society that was completely different than what they were previously used to was horrific. I am not First Nation’s myself, but I grew up seeing the multi generational effects of having their culture and language stripped from them, and forced to learn another language, practice a different religion and lifestyle they were accustomed to. It’s really beyond sad. And I have tremendous respect for the fact that they are trying to get back any semblance of what was sacred to them before. Anyways, I’m saying all of this because most people who are not First Nation themselves really don’t fully understand their ways. And traditionally wolves becoming dogs was a big part of their life. It was these people’s ancestors that are the reason we now have dogs. All defendants of dogs worldwide are due to this intimate relationship between wolves and humans. It lead to the domestication of wolves and with that, slowly over time, desirable traits of dogs became integrated into the communities. Where I am going with this, is traditionally the wolves/dogs were allowed to roam freely, as members of the society. And yes, sometimes problem dogs/wolves needed to be dealt with. Today, these animals are much more Dog than wolf. But there is still the belief that dogs should not be tied up or contained in cages. Dogs will wander the town. And for the most part it is not problematic. But again, this does not jive with Colonial/white man society. It is a source of conflict between the law and traditional ways.
I hope I am not offending anyone with this. As I mentioned before I very much respect their ways. And I know they are constantly being told by White people what is best. And as you can imagine, with their history, that that’s a very sore spot for them.
As for the solution, I think it really needs to come from the First Nations people. They have had to deal with this problem for thousands of years. And they did so in a way that worked for them. As an outsider we might not like the culling of problem animals, but it is a practice that happens worldwide where wild animals interact with society. I just thing it’s a bigger discussion that needs not happen. And the right people need to be at the table to have that discussion.
@@PlayNowWorkLater yeah, just one quich google search and found a few articles; "Saskatchewan First Nation says disposal of dogs killed in cull was poorly handled" - "Canada cruelty charge over cull of huskies" - "Investigation into sled dog slaughter also an amazing historical record
Qikiqtani Truth Commission investigated whether RCMP deliberately killed sled dogs"
Happened recently even!
wolf domestication has always been one of my favorite topics but I never really considered it was on accident I think that's pretty brilliant
By accident, nothing is on accident.
Neil degrasse Tyson disagrees but then he's a r@pist, so.... Oops I forgot you can't state that particular fact on CZcams without getting a 24 hour ban.
@@seanoneill9130Nothing? Citation needed...
Perhaps “by chance” is a better term than by accident.
I enjoy this form of speculation. It’s both evidence and imagination based. Stephan is pretty clear that he is engaging in speculation, but it’s not baseless.
My speculation is that there was something in the psychology/sociology of each species that increased the probability of social integration and personal relations between dogs and man.
@MarcosElMalo2 Well its not going to be just one factor, every factor mentioned by anyone on this thing is probably fairly valid...
21:28 did the research state the ages of the fully articulated dogs buried near humans vs the other dogs? If the fully articulated dogs were on average older than than the other dogs that could add to the idea that the articulated dogs were cherished ones
Yes they were adult dogs!
Some researchers have speculated that the dogs were originally a kind of insurance against famine.
If you spend some surplus food to breed a dogs during the summer, then you can eat some of them during the winter when times are tough.
-As an example the Inuits definitely ate sledge dog meat during lean times.
So pigs, only for peoples who lacked access to pigs.
Human poop may also be a part of dog domestication. From my experiences of camping, hunting and working in the wilderness with dogs, I learned that many dogs gladly eat our poop. The thought may be disgusting, but poop has lots of protein and calories for a hungry dog or wolf. Plus, by consuming our poop, dogs/wolves help keep our living area hygienic and reduce odors that might attract large predators.
Cats dispense doggy candy bars too, and they make it game by burying them
I had a trained protection dog. He wouldn't think of eating any kind of poop, or drinking from a toilet. That's a great way to get a disease, such as parvo.
I love dog
Careful if your dog does that. My dog ate some human poop he found when we were hunting, was all sleepy and wobbly for 2 days. Apparently the THC in edibles is only partially absorbed and a lot comes out the other end. THC is dangerous for dogs but not extremely so. There are other drugs that come through that would be much worse.
@@paul9156c All dogs should/must be vaccinated for parvo, starting when they are a puppy of 6-8 weeks old. Regular boosters are also necessary.
20:40 At the High Rhine salmon was once the cheapest thing to eat during season (before the Rhine was canalized and then poisoned by industry), only the poorest of the poorest ate it and even them were tired of it. So, yes, fish was once plenty and used mostly as dog food, even in historical times.
Fridtjof Nansen sacrificed his dogs, one after another, to feed the remaining pack during some of his Arctic expeditions, a strategy he reportedly learned from the Inuits. The sled dogs did not initially accepted the meat, until they got hungry,
what a shitty thing to do...
@@simonphoenix3789 Better than eating your human companions, although sometimes they resorted to this too. Plus, as your supplies dwindle, there is less need for carrying capacity and more mouths to feed. On an unrelated note, don't let them give you a cow tattoo in Russian prison, it means you are on the menu in an escape attempt.
This was the first thing I thought of as well. I lived in Churchill, Manitoba for a bit. One of the old guys up there explained to me why he still kept sled dogs instead of using a ski doo. If the weather turned bad and your 3 day trip ends up taking 10 days, well, you can't eat a snowmobile. There are stories of having to sacrifice a dog to feed the pack in desperate times.
@@simonphoenix3789 What would you have done?
Eating meat is also pretty shitty
That Keeps Ad intro was perfect! As an archeologist and ancient historian, your channel is a gem and I love how it brings lay people into the fold of anthropology. I truly admire the dedication and love you have for the discipline.
David deserves half of the revenue lol
As someone who just about lost my Rico on Thursday, this video is fascinating! How his ancestors came into our lives is a interesting topic.
For the earliest part of the domestication process, it's probably useful to look at the recent sort of semi-domestication of silver foxes. Selection for nothing other than tolerance of humans, basically friendliness, brought along for the ride familiar morphological traits -- some floppy ears, different coat patterns, curly tails, and so forth. These physical traits started appearing along with behavioral differences within a decade.
Maybe all that was required was a group of people with a food surplus (fish is an interesting idea), willing to toss some scraps to the curious, bold, friendlier Pleistocene wolf individuals -- wolves exploiting humans locally out-reproduced human-intolerant wolves. And then over a period of time, maybe not all that long, the human group has a resident bunch of odd-looking wolves hanging around, who may be doing useful things like guarding the camp, going out on hunts, etc.
At that point, humans have sort of auto-semi-domesticated wolves from which to select the friendliest pups ... and then _eventually_ you're off to the races with selective breeding and full domestication.
As I understood it -- maybe there's been more recent research on the subject -- dogs descend from a Gray Wolf subspecies or sister clade that was distinct from any extant Gray Wolf subspecies. IIRC, there was a possibility that extinct Japanese Wolves may have been the closest critter to the dog ancestor.
Maybe it took an odd, wolf-tolerant group of humans to kick off the process of encouraging human-tolerant wolves. Maybe wolves were especially venerated by such a group. ... it also occurs to me that having friendly doggish-wolves around discourages unfriendly wolves. So people could have simultaneously encouraged one sort of wolf and discouraged another.
I strongly suspect explotation as food was a much later thing -- many thousands of years after the beginning of the process. It just seems to me that wolves were far smaller in number and less, uh, caloric, with smaller pelts, than big herbivores that were everywhere in the Pleistocene.
I love the theory that wolves were domesticated just because of a few goofy, overly friendly individuals that just liked hanging around people.
The people probably realised they were the skinny runts, they weren't a real threat and mostly ate the scraps, unwanted offal etc. Let them sleep by your fire because if the wolf jumps up and stares into the night it's a great alarm bell.
Before long you realise it makes quite a good hot water bottle when your feet are cold.
Before you know it you've accidentally made a best friend to last a thousand generations.
I have a similar but different theory. So we know that raven and crows have hunting pacts with wolves. They show them deer and get rewarded with some of the carcass, both are happy. Often crows even become friends with the pack, warn them of coyotes, play with their young that kind of thing. Now back then there would be animals that are simply too big for wolves to hunt, like the mammoth. But hey wolves are smart enough to work with other animals, so they show humans where the mammoths are and get rewarded. Over time they develop a friendship and let those weird bipedals play with their young , which leads to even deeper bonds.
Reading this comment with my pup curled up at my feet ❤
There is no way that’s how it started imo. A wild animal wants food, people know this and they are not going to let the wild ones around their babies. At a certain point after selecting for non-aggression maybe they started taking the pups and training them
@@The_SOB_II nobody said they invited the wolves into their tent to play with their babies, so this is a complete straw man.
I would listen to a podcast of you two talking about stuff like this for hours, more collabs, please!
i have a russian friend who grew up in the 80s in siberia... they weren't poor. and are not natives... his parents worked in a mining town...
they ate dogs
eating dogs is rather a big of a taboo for all Slavs, so i call your bs
@@puzzled012 when the 90s hit russia. as a child i remember all the stray dogs disappearing... and so did the pigeons.
so u can keep your opinions to yourself while i present facts.
my friend is not even ashamed of eating dogs. they even once ate the dog of an annoying neighbor.
@@puzzled012 Well, I am from the Czech Republic, and while in general that would be true, but there are a few places where they eat dogs. I know of one village where dogs disappear before local festivities... So eating dogs might be happening in places you might not expect.
@@puzzled012 Not everyone living in Siberia is a necessarily a Slav either.
Dog eat dog.
Can you do one on cats?
Meow 😺
Yes
🐈
We never domesticated cats... They domesticated us!
Cats are more tamed than domesticated. They even still look just like their wild relatives.
Hi Stefan! I've been rewatching your older content these last few days, and it's still really great stuff. You rule, man!
This was incredible. I had been searching for a documentary on this subject for a long time but nothing scratched the itch really. 10/10 subscribed to you and David
You have to let the hair do its thing man. Obviously you were destined to be the old British archeology guy with crazy half bald hair and possibly a beard too. Come on, man, we need more Time Team looking nerds. That’s how you know who’s really an expert.
y'know, I've always been a bit worried about balding, but the idea of looking like an expert right outta time team is making me rethink that
I used the keeps stuff for 2 years with no effect, and when I got off it it made my beard develop bald spots and all the hair on my temporal half of my head fell out. Keeps is not worth it, I got steroids and my head hair back but no beard forever, now I just buzzcut it@@j_fenrir
Stephan wouldn't look right with more hair on that dome
Vastly disagree. Time Team has always needed more women and fewer of the glorified ugly old men talking about how cool each other is. However, Stefan Milo is awesome and way above the biases of the BBC. He includes male and female experts with a pretty even hand, I think, and is modest and cool.
@@christabedwinnot really mate. If you think the quality of a TV show is based off of the appearance of the person presenting it, then you are the issue
I never grew up with dogs either! I got my first dog at age 33 and it was a pug--not exactly a primordial beast. She really does consider herself to be a fearsome beast though, and makes sure that we know any time someone isn't following the rules. She will alert to crows hovering too close to the yard, and desperately tries to tell the goats to get in line and behave themselves. It's a very interesting behavior. The cat kills things and does his cat things. The dog really has bonded differently which is so surprising to me. Taken as a puppy, I can see how early pre-domestic dogs could have easily bonded with their human group if their temperament were just friendly enough. The crazy thing is, she has let us know EVERY TIME something serious has happened. The goats escaping, a coyote on the property, the neighbor's house on fire, a stranger coming too close. She's so dumb and we never give her any credit...she's never been wrong. Dogs would have been extremely useful companions simply for their ability to alert (besides hunting or carrying stuff)
I raise small livestock for meat and milk....20,000 years ago I don't think I would have objected to eating dog if I had to "cull the herd"...it's just a practical logistical consideration any time you host a domestic group of animals. Assholes get culled. Doesn't matter what kind of animal it is I don't think.
did you buy your pug from a breeder and knowingly support the continuation of a breed that's very existence is animal abuse? just had to ask
Being 100% fair that picture at 12:17 was made I believe during the Siege of Paris(1871) when people were literally starving to death.
Just a week before I'm getting my first dog
Eat it 😂😂
Bon appetit.
Don't eat it 😂
Hopefully you will study up on what it takes to be a good dog owner. Unlike most idiots with dogs.....
One week til epic meal time😋
i spent ages hunting with sighthounds as a kid and young adult in a different era that seems like a 100 years ago. if you have ever hunted with your dog you will know everything just clicks it seems the most natural thing in the world to do. the dogs love it, and i got a great sense of achievement being able to lead a pack. ive hunted pigs foxes hares rabbit and even a kangaroo or two back in the old days.
most of the nomadic/tribal peoples used to cull their children, the mongolians and even the vikings used abandonment the scythians used to throw excess children to a pit of hungry dogs so the story goes etc etc so its not much of a surprise that were culling excess dogs as well.
what do wolves get from a hunting partnership with humans? our mind and our ability to kill things. even before ive left to go on the hunt i know where we are going and what game we are likely to find there, plus because i stand i can see over the grass and see game off in the distance. you can 'cast' the dog by pointing your arm. dogs are the only animal that know what pointing is, not even apes know. you can even point with your eyes and the dogs can follow what you are doing.
the kill is the most dangerous part of the hunt for a wild animal. theres no one who is going to set a broken bone or no one who can wire your broken jaw back up in the wild. if some two leg with a pointy stick comes up and does the dangerous part and none of the pack gets injured that is a great thing for the wolves.
my thoughts on how we teamed up are that we would have been seeing them hunt in the territory that we also hunted in. using the persistence method as well. being the apex predator humans probably would have pushed lower predators off their kill. people still do it in africa now if you search for 'man steals lions kill' you can watch 4 dudes do it today. it would only take someone to start to share with the dogs for spiritual or just fairness for the wolves to work out this is a good deal lets do it again.
why did we have them in camp. because a good watch/guard dog always gets up and checks when it hears a strange sound. and sometimes back in the deep past those strange sounds were other humans the most dangerous animals.
i think dogs are humanities greatest invention. they have a super power of being able to make friends with pretty much any other animal from polar bears to dolphins to otters to elephants to magpies you name it and a dog has made friends with it.
i hope that helps clear some things up. give your dog a pat for me
There's no substitute for experience when thinking about a theory like dog domestication. A lot of scientific theories about early humans are much easier to appreciate with personal practical experiences , such as hunting , hiking , dinghy sailing , dog walking , getting fit. I often use the arm signal for walk direction and treats direction with jack Russell as she's deaf now and knows exactly what that means . However she still trumps on smell and that often indicates there's other animals in the woods
Animal murderer
Regarding pointing. I have heard that. Only some breeds respond to pointing. Pointing being: The dogs looks at where you are pointing rather than just looking at your hand. The dogs that respond to pointing are from heavily domesticated lines. Less domesticated lines do not respond to pointing. If that research is correct, then it seems unlikely that it was a factor in early contact.
@@Reginaldesq do you count greyhounds deerhounds wolfhounds and saluki heavily domesticated? i mean they pretty different from a wolf but they dont seem to have changed much over the past few thousand years going by rock art.
@@adamroodog1718 I read the research a while ago and dont remember which breeds they considered heavily domesticated. I dont think they considered looks, i'm pretty sure they used genetics to determine domestication level.
Hey Stefan! Love your videos, my wife and I have watched every upload and just absolutely adore you and the fantastic content you create. Thank you for being an absolute legend ❤
My Father, back in the 1920 had dinner with a friend from grade school on the Rocky Boy Indian reservation in Montana. After he finished his first serving he was invited a second , when he started to refill, his friends father said " Dig deep and a get some puppy. Yep, my pappy ate dog..
Tastes similar to lamb or goat meat
Many years ago I read a novel about the Lakota by Ruth Beebe Hill.
These people were pushed by a wave of native American migration that resulted from the European settler colonists spreading westward from the East Coast.
They entered the American Steppe inn the early 18th century after the ponies introduced by Spanish settlers and explorers had become established on these grasslands. And they had dogs. These dogs were primarily a source of meat and used as pack animals. Apparently any puppy that bit a human was destined for stew.
Your videos are so fun to watch. I'm so happy I discovered your channel.
My grandma’s fave food was young dogs. I was taught to throw stones at dogs that came too close, and one young dog learned that the hard way. The stone hit right in the middle of the head killing it instantly. My grandma saw it and was so proud and happy. Dog soup for dinner! And she fitted the fur on my anorak.
I ask this question out of curiosity, not malice.
What culture are you from?
@@WormBurger relevant - Greenlandic
Based.
Thats awesome. This might give you a laugh. When I was a teenager we had drug dealers living across the street. They had 2 Dobermans. My brother was out the front of our house when the Dobermans escaped and charged him. He picked up a stubbie (half size beer bottle) of the ground and threw it at the front dog hitting it right between the eyes, it yelped and ran away, the other dog followed it. Sadly, we didnt get dog for dinner :)
Out here snitching on your own family.
@StefanMilo your Passion in these videos and your ability to find these niche subjects and make the relevant and interesting. Always such a joy to watch you at work. Sending much love from Australia 🦘
While any animal can become my friend, I'll throw in the steer bar: Team Cat. Always and forever.
Yes. Let's face it: the moggers domesticated us.
Everyone has an opinion, it's just that yours is objectively wrong 😅
I know this video is about dogs but I must say, I love the chemistry between both you and David. It seemed like yall were just goofing around and I love it! When yall laugh and smile it makes us laugh and smile too!
Stefan's a great dude. Thanks! I like it too.
@@davidianhowe keep up the great work! It’s because of you and people like you that we get to learn all of these fascinating things about our ancestors and their furry friends! Things we would never know without you!
The Zoom meeting was really enjoyable. I'm very impressed with the ad lead; I saw it coming, but he didn't.
You're my favourite CZcams channel! Thanks so much for producing consistently interesting and great content
In Alaska now, sled dogs are fed mainly on salmon stored over the year caught on salmon wheels and nets. It's a cost effective way to feed lots of dogs.
If you want to have a discussion about hunting and hauling dogs in Siberian cultures, feel free to hit me up
This couldn’t come at a better time. I wasnt in the best spot and I needed this. Thank you Stefen
Hope you're doing well ❤
I love the snowy backdrop as you walk through the forest as you talk so naturally and confidently! Your humour is fantastic. Thanks for the great video 🎉
If I could give you 4 thumbs up I would! You are so truly interested in every topic you take on and so excited to share that interest with us. I love it. Thank you. The work you put into these videos shows!
I almost fell out of my chair during that, “there’s a lot going on here clip.” 😂
IKR? 😆
I could talk for an hour on this subject.
1. In 2014 undercover agents found a place in China that were killing 100-200 dogs per day with the leather being destined for the US. If you bought gloves from Walmart, there is a chance they were from dogs.
2. In the valley in which I live I have witnessed owls and grey foxes hunting together. They even sound surprisingly similar. I have looked up various American Indians stories and beliefs but have found nothing on the subject. I call in both foxes and owls with my mouth often. (same as everything else in the woods. In fact, during the eclipse, I had 3 turkeys answer me while one came into my yard. They didn't give a damn about the sun and moon.)
3. No one seems to remember how Darwin mentioned the relationship between species that hold similar places in the environment in Origins of Species.
Stefan and David together, what a great day to be alive!
Start the week with a little Stefan and some cheery history telling. Yes please! Most appreciated. Thank you Stefan for sharing your knowledge and passion with us. As ever, great video!
Ok hear me out:
What if, wait for it, one tribe chief is minding his own business when the most violent village wolfdog pup suddenly maims or kills his firstborn kids. He got so sad and mad and vindictive and killed the pup, and ate him in his anger.
The tribe priest sees this and, to curry favor with the chief, tells all that the chief just gained the spirit of the strong wolf, and in a world with scarcity, everyone else starts eating the meanest wolfdog puppies to gain their strength and spirit. 10000 years later we have lovely dogs with cute eyes that have no fighting spirit in them, only cuteness overload, and we stop eating so many of them.
I mean, it's not too much of a jump to think that culled dogs served as sacrifices and meals, right? I think that a lot of times we moderns think that ancient/prehistoric people used things for a single purpose
Wow Stefan, an absolute gem of a video here I love learning about the history of our loved fluffy little ones, even the dark aspects of it so lots of love again ❤❤❤
So good to see your videos Stephan. Also so good to see you doing those healthy hikes…so we know you will be able to do this great thing for many years more.
I live i northern Sweden and am a Hunter. I have two dogs of a local Spitz breed who i hunt moose and small game with.
I recently saw a documentary about a Wolf Pack on a arctic Island in Canada and had sort of an a-ha! moment.
The way wolves hunt large game usually becomes a stare down where moose, muskox, bison or even mammuth just stand their ground and wait for the wolves to grow tierd. The wolves on the other hand try with howls, lounging at the pray or by any other means to scare the pray so that they can get a opening on the herd.
For me it would make sense that humans who cohabitated with wolves and these megafauna would hear these long drawn standoffs and be curious about what was going on. How long would it take before a Hunter figured they could fling a spear or arrow at the animal the wolfes were holding up and thus efficiently taking it down?
This is exactly how we hunt with "primitive" Spitz type dogs today. They essentially follow me in the woods looking for pray, track them down and then just keep the moose still by constant barking. I sneak in and kill the moose. This method is called baying i belive.
So i wonder if dog domesticaation was an effect of the wolves innability to take down large game in "head to head combat", our curiousity and ability to fling sharp projectiles?
Also regarding the time frame. I understand that on a genetic level domestication takes several generations but if we think about "behavioural domestication" it might have happened really fast even within a couple of years. The wolves are smart and figure out that if they stay relatively close to a human hunting party, make a bunch of sounds when they find a bison or moose dudes with sticks will show up and kill whatever they bark at and they will get some of the food. This is quite literally exactly how it goes today and how my dogs learn to hunt.
Anyway, just my thoughts as someone who hunts "megafauna" with very"primitive" dogs. I dont really like the term primitive but they are these dogs are the closest to wolves genetically, visually and defenetly keep some behavioral traits i have not seen on souterners dog types. Would be interesting to hear what you think Stefan!
I think everything was food originally.
First of all, I love you and everything that you have done. Honestly, you genuinely love ancient history and it makes me that much more invested in what you have to say about it. Keep up the amazing work, I always look forward to seeing what you have to say next!
Kinda makes you wonder if the puppies evolved to be extra cute because we were less inclined to slaughter them when they hit us with those adorable eyes
Unlikely, baby wolves have already maxed out their cuteness.
Rabbits and lambs are cute, too. And yummy.
I thinknits true. I happen to think thats what happened with our own children too...
@@DG-iw3yw those that were not cute were fed to our dogs? 😉
@@ronald3836 We fed our least cute children to our cutest pets, and our least cute pets to our cutest children.
You’ve never had a dog?! And I thought you were a sound chap
What you lack in pelage is drastically overcompensated by your brilliance, clarity, erudition, and enthusiasm. Thanks for sharing with us!!! Prester Bob
your commitment to standing in a forest & telling us cool stuff is one of my fave things abt u
A million words has been written on this subject. I suspect it was all very simple. A den of pups was discovered and one was eaten immediately, the others kept alive for further meals. A human got attached to one of the pups and it was removed from the menu. The start of domestication had occurred.
I have read some people speculate that dogs are the most successful human parasite that ever came down the pike. And every time I eat, my dog's paws on my knees and that pitiful look he gets on his face reminds me of that truth. But seriously, even from the beginning there was most likely no single use for the wolves that began to associate themselves with humans. I can easily imagine that sometimes they helped us hunt and watched over our encampments at night, and sometime our arrows were aimed at them if there was nothing else to be caught.
Parasite? We use them for hunting and emotional support among many other things. It's a symbiotic relationship, not parasitic.
A parasite gives you nothing. A parasite takes everything away from you. Dogs give much more than they take. Even more so in times where you can use all of them.
@@hellboy7424 some parasitic intestinal worms can reduce autoimmune conditions or allergic reactions.
Thank you, Stefan! Your content never fails to make my day better! :) Your videos are like a calm escape from a restless world. It‘s the effort and fascination you put into these subjects, which makes your work very special. Thank you!
~5:50 Stefan if you see this, where the subtitles say "they might have taken an that (indistinct)" what he's saying is "they might have taken an atlatl"
Congratulations on 400k subs! keep up the good work 😍
Your channel makes me marvel at our existence. I really like your guests too!
I had dogs when I was young. One was a big collie dog. He was the best pal a boy could have. My Dad told the story that he worried about me being alone with such a big dog. So he followed us to see how we got along. If I got too close to the busy road, the dog herded me away from the road. If I got too close to a ravine, the dog he
ded me away from the ravine. The dog herded me away from anything he thought was dangerous. My Dad decided, I was safer with the dog looking after me, than if I was wondering around on my own. He also learned to not call for me, because I was playing and not paying attention. He would whistle for the dog and the dog would herd me home.
I’m on time! Awesome! Thanks Stefan I needed something like this today..
There was a YT channel of a guy who falls into the self sufficiency category..
(I’ve been a lifetime outdoors person, bushcraft stuff has been an interest for over 40+ years)
This guy runs a sled dog team, and he needs them, he lives literally in the middle of nowhere. As a practical matter for his family and lifestyle he can’t ‘afford’ to keep a ‘pet’.. so there was a big push back from viewers, when he turned his retired dog into mittens.. 😢as a dog person it is so sad, but as a FACT of life that doesn’t have “room” for an animal that doesn’t perform a necessary task, that animal is culled.
It’s why a lot of people couldn’t handle true “farming” these days.. life is HARD..
This video is just excellent. Really informative and fun. Kind of shocked it doesn’t have more views. Is it the thumbnail?
You have a fantastic way of open thinking! Thank you
Fascinating video. Thanks for all your hard work.
Nothing better than a Stefan upload ❤
Excellent report. I just loved the snowman pic. Seeing yr pic as a happy and cute boy, I realize one motive why yr videos are so good. You still hv a happy child inside.
Wonderful video as always Stefan!
Great to see David Howe again! A great guy!
Some of your points in this video are so thought provoking...
If you want to see some dogs and snow together, watching the start if the Iditarod in Anchorage Alaska is pretty neat
Food for thought! Thanks again Stefan!
I love the area you're walking through. I know it's in the US but the snowy weather conditions and the scenery make me miss English winters.
Strange, I know. 🙂
My reservation is the initial assumption that early domestication was intentional. Even if you found a den and brought back puppies for your daughter, the first time it bites or snaps it is history. There were no SPCAs to rehome animals.
Thanks for your videos, I find them informative, interesting and really enjoyable. 19:12 I love your personable and self deprecating way of presenting. I watch a lot of science and archeological videos and yours are amongst my favourites. I also love that you’re a ‘cat man’. Men who love cats are special.
I love dogs! But I love this channel even more, for the interesting and original view points it brings!
what a genuinely excellent piece of thinking.
The concept of a smaller wolf being easier to tan is just a modern concept of time and money.
Go back a few generations and it by what its best for, like woodchuck for laces and furred deer for bedding.
You need a quiver? you look for a little critter, there's a baby white bison one that I wish I had. Rabbit is only good to line things, I skin/peel rabbbits without a knife after a little poke to get a finger in (sorry, relevant tho).
Deer, bear and wolf are just about a perfect compromise between thickness/flexibility and durability.
I'm probably the only one here who has worn a full brown bear cape. It's about the hottest thing ever with the hair on.
I'd want elk boots, deer pants and shirt with a wolf cloak. All my laces cow, bag strapz as well, pig skin pack and bags. Red fox quiver, martin or skunk gloves. I'm assuming 4 seasons and temperate.
I wouldn't do chuck laces, I've pounded-out and braided my own sinew and its like comparing cotton string to steel cable.
Last thing I'd do would be to think about shortcutting with an inferior material. When my hammer broke, I didn't put on a pine dowel to save time, I got a chunk of hickory stovewood and took a drawknife to it.
We've lost most of that.
This is a great video! Personally I think it was a very slow, complicated process with triggers from both sides. I can imagine brave, lone wolfs trying to follow humans, or a lost pup following humans. If the lone wolf was tolerated it would try to protect it's human herd. The pup would quickly pick up on routines and humans would notice some form of training was possible. Super fascinating.
My guess about the holes in the mandibles is that it's a part of a puppet. String held the mandible against the skull and the jaw was raised and lowered. I would suppose the fur had been put back over the skull and jawbone like a puppet.
I think the reason I started watching your video is you look remarkably like a cousin (substitute British accent for Southern US) I grew up with. We were more like brothers than cousins, hunting, fishing, getting into trouble together....you name it. But I really enjoy your content and presentation now and like your amicable presentation style and often unique perspectives on early humans. Keep up the good work!
I met someone who looks remarkably similar to Stefan, but he's from South America (Spanish descent).
@@98Zai Great....now I'm having to struggle with the idea my cousin may be from a batch of clones.
@@RaisinBran-ir4iq I'm increasingly worried that we're all related somehow!
Great work, excellent narrative. 👍😁
There's a really interesting - and illuminating - story about dog domestication that came from the Soviet fox domestication programme. Foxes were selected for behavioural traits but it ended up coming with physiological changes on the side.
Love this collaboration
Another lovely surprise from you on waking! I watched this while eating my breakfast (cheese and bacon omelette, not a doggy). Fascinating. Siberians still like to eat wolves, as attested by Glenn Villeneuve, (star of the reality show Life Below Zero) when he appeared on the Joe Rogan podcast.
The chonky boy in the cave painting, I can't 😭💀💕 0:20
The eating of the sandwich 😂😂 such a great channel I love it !
My late grandma would always pet dogs, call,them such a good boys and how they would make great furs and mittens some day. I realized a lot later that she was not joking and that this was common practice up to 1930's
In a nice way, they can help you stay warm even after they die. Or provide you food, it's sad but I can understand.
There is an ethnic group of Pacific Islanders from a small island who have dog for large gatherings and, having been around them for a time, I did try dog. It was just a food to them and I can’t say I have the moral high ground when it comes to eating animals….that said…
I do LOVE my dogs! I have a Norwegian Elkhound who is an old breed and he has a real knack for hunting, but it was our little chihuahua who was the best at it! She was always catching grasshoppers and we started to call her Saltamontes.😂 So whatever the reason dogs are in our lives,I know I’m glad to have them.
Hunting with moose-dogs may be ancient, but the Norwegian Grey Elkhounds are a modern breed. All Elkhounds are descendants of cross-bred scenthounds and hunting spitzes, and the Norwegian Kennel Club did a lot of pedigree research to figure that out. Even genetic research shown Norwegian Grey Elkhounds are more closely related to scenthounds than to other hunting spitzes
@@ZaryaTheLaikaSo they’re not old like what? A piggle or chiwennie? How old is old in your eyes? When did an elkhound “breed standard” become a thing? April 21st in the year 421 at around lunch time? Did someone with a Akita travel from Japan and say,”hey there. I can take this dog, make it smaller, crave your “elg” meat AND can give you a choice of colors; grey or black”? Or was an Elkhound not too far off from the spitz breeds that came from Siberia? Did the Sami create the breed? Or did the Tchudes bring them? I think there’s a real issue in archaeology in that without information, we just do not know. I appreciate that you read the wiki page and wanted to “correct” me saying they’re an “old” breed, but we just do not know HOW old. Clearly old enough to be in Iron Age burial mounds…but were they there before that religious practices? Using the data, Micronesians only existed briefly at around year Ø, then again (real briefly) from the years 1100 to 1200CE when Nan Madol was built and then disappeared until Europeans started to explore/colonize. (This was a bit tongue in cheek because there is more data than that, including ethnolinguistics). But do get what I am saying and how it relates to your response? I’m not trying to be mean, but I do not know what old means to you and don’t care for a regurgitation of a kennel club.
A side complaint; I personally can not stand pedigree organizations such as the AKC because they are about breed standards and there are way too many unwanted dogs out there. So @#$& them. They may be doing the research, but they feed the problem of so many people not keeping a dog for life. I may have eaten dog before, but I don’t get a puppy just to send it away when it’s a hyper teenage dog.
But I hope all is well and best of luck in your future CZcams comment endeavors.
Cheers
@@thelostone6981 Norwegians asked Americans to stop repeating that myth. They have pedigrees proving the Norwegian Grey Elkhounds were purposefully crossbred with German scenthounds 100 - 150 years ago.
Here is the genetic research proving Norwegian Grey Elkhounds are not related to Swedish Elkhounds nor to other hunting spitzes (Karelian Bear Dogs, Finnish Spitzes, Norrbottenspitzes, West Siberian Laikas and East Siberian Laikas):
Pohjoismäki JLO, Lampi S, Donner J, Anderson H (2018) Origins and wanderings of the Finnish hunting spitzes. PLoS ONE 13(6): e0199992
Being crossbred with German scenthounds make the Norwegian Grey Elkhounds a modern breed, not an ancient landrace type.
@@thelostone6981 So if you have a problem with me telling you Norwegian Elkhound is not an "old breed", blame Norwegians for telling Americans to stop lying about their own dogs.
When the genetic study on Nordic and Russian hunting dogs came out, the Norwegian Elkhound breeders were like "yeah, we knew our dogs are more genetically European than Uralic or Siberian. We have the pedigrees telling us this."
@@ZaryaTheLaika”Norwegians asked Americans to stop”…not the Norwegian I’m married to! 😂🤣😂 🇳🇴🇳🇴🇳🇴 Don’t pull that crap my friend because you’re grouping an entire people into one homogeneous group and it just doesn’t fly.
But what? The Norwegian elkhound is related to a Swedish breed…DESPITE BEING FROM THE SAME REGION?!? THIS IS YOUR PROOF?!? So WHAT?!? And I like how you went right past my point of data points….you shot right past what I was saying, didn’t answer the “old breed” question and I can’t take you seriously. You think this is a gospel truth, but it is not. Go lick your wounds elsewhere because this rigid way of thinking shuts down critical thinking about a subject and shuts down scientific inquiry. But you seem very uptight about this and maybe need hugs and kisses…
Hugs and kisses! 😘😘😘😘
Love your guest speaker. More please.
Love the final comment "such is life innit" spoken like a true English man. 😂
Still loving the channel bruv and keep at it geezer.
Really great work, maybe a tad too imaginative for "hard science" but, a terrific story for sure....
Another fascinating topic, Stefan. I have heard it said (I don't remember where or when) that dogs became fully domesticated only when they psychologically remained puppies - ie., lacking aggressiveness towards humans for their entire lifespan. If that is true, then it stands to reason that varying degrees of the expression of the trait would occur among the different breeds of dogs. Spaniels, for example, being least aggressive, Pit Bulls being the most aggressive, all from selective breeding. Just a thought.
Would be a dream to have Stefan and Forrest Valkai do a video together. Both have this radiating enthusiasm that is always a joy to watch!! And I'm sure they
You watch Forest too?! I love him. If you like Stefan and Forest you should check out History with Kaylee and North02
Kayleigh sorry. Not Kaylee
@@michellerudish6919 North02's 2h long Neanderthal video is my go-to sleeping video😅
@@InsongWhang LOL. That is a really good video.