WHERE ARE THE SUPERSTAR SCRUM HALVES IN THE SOUTH? | Is it Harder to be a GREAT 9 Now?
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- Watching the Rugby Championship I was struck by the quality of the Number 9's now compared to my memories of the GREAT scrum halves down the years, most of which have come from the big Southern Hemisphere Nations. Are thew young players coming through going to be world beaters but just not there yet? Or have the law changes in rugby made the position more difficult to be great at? Or is there something else going on?
The trio of Joost, Gregan, Marshall in one era!
I haven’t listened yet but this was a Beautiful era in rugby, so competitive
Ah yes, Marshall wasn't in the list of greats. I think, second to Smith, all time best AB scrumhalf (or 7& 3/4s, 3&5/18ths or whatever NZ call scrumhalves)
@@ChasSimpson look up a guy called Dave Loveridge. I was very young when watching him, but just remember being mesmerised watching him. My dad loved the guy, still talks about him
Um, du preez?
@@Thudsrayz Amen brother. Justin Marshall was great at everything except his key skill, passing. Andrew Mehrtens only ever looked world class playing outside Graham Bachop. Marshall was a liability if you were a first-five. I would rate Loveridge and Smith as the top two. It's a shame that Loveridge had to wait so long to be picked for the AB's.
Reinach has always been special but never got given all the time he deserved and is now past his prime.
Nah he has always been average with very rare moments of brilliance. Nowhere near the natural talent of Joost or FdP.
has he ever done a good kick? I've at least seen bad or terrible ones every single game i can remember him in.
He was so explosive back in his Sharks days
@axxey could it be that kicking just isn't his natural game and that he's been forced into that type of game...
Disagree - overrated IMO
Joost stood out from day one. He was incredible at sevens as well.
Anyone who doesn't rate Faf de Klerk's attacking skills needs to go back and watch his seasons at the Lions, or the WC-2019 final!!! It's not his fault that every coach he's had since his move to Sale (including Rassie) were devoted to the tactical kicking / defensive game-plan. The guy got into the Bok team in the first place because he was an absolute attacking menace, as good as anything I ever saw from Joost or FdP. As a legit double world cup winner (played all but 7 minutes of both finals), Faf is an all-time great on principle! 🤘
@@adamvanderriet9669 great 9s are not great for one year they are great throughout their careers and can adapt.
@@davidwalker2402 Problem is structure. 9's was aloud more freedom as the rugby wasn't as structured as its now, it was a lot loser gameplay. Now its structured which causes greats not to become greats as that's lefts for the backline from 10-15
He's got older and slower delivery, I was super surprised in the world cup for example that SA didn't play him or Pollard(instead of only both or none) for reliable tactical kicking and instead consistantly played Lebbok with a dog unreliable halfback. Faf could have done the goal kicking better than Lebbok also.
You can have all the skills and workrate in the world, but if you don't have the game reading ability, steely nerves, and all-around respected presence on the field, you can't control a game like Joost or Fourie did.
Very interresting take from a French standpoint. I would add to all that Tim said about how we conceptualize rugby is not only about the 9 but about the 9-10 relation.
Indeed we have a word for the 9-10 couple, we called them "la charnière"(the hinge) of the team. As far as I know, the closet concept in other coutty is the pivot, and that id genreally limited to the 10. But for us, half-scrum is a position, half-fly is also position, but both halves makes another position. La charnière is a part of the game just as the front line is one, and both halved equally share the responsability to pace the game. This is why Jalibert is genrally a best player with Lucu than Dupont, because they learnt to complement each other over the years. So, all our 9s share the burden with the 10s in the Top14, and both positions are seen as prestigious.
Galthie-Lamaison 🤤
And … about Connor Murray. As a Bok supporter I was in Ireland in 2015 and watching many a game in an Irish pub. Murray regarded as talismanic - and even now when he is on the field it seems as though his presence boosts the team.
I think it's all rosy, the greats of the past grew into their greatness, let's give the youngsters a chance
So glad you included Agustín Pichot in the list of greats! He was an incredible leader and player.
He should have become CEO of World Rugby instead of that old fossil Beaumont.
After Hugo Porta, the greatest Argentinian rugby player ever!
TJ probably the closest to world-class among the current 9s. Reckon Grant Williams has the highest potential but he is still raw.
No way. Grant Williams is the best. And he is not raw at all.
Fair!
Embrose Papier is in great form too, pity he isnt even in the squad, I think Grant Williams and Embrose Papier are the best in SA at the moment,
I think Hendrikse is very, very good. He reads the game so well. I think if he gets called up again and can stay free from injury he will end up being remembered as something special.
I’ve also been watching Nico Steyn from the Lions and I think he is on track to be a Springbok soon.
I'm a Stormers fan but Nohamba should be there in the mix.
What an interesting conversation to start, and I agree with you Tim.
As a kiwi Cam Roigard is something special. Out of all the good traits he's got I think his work ethic and resilience stand out, hope he comes back firing from a horrible injury. We also have Noah Hotham coming through, always looks so composed and you don't start games for the crusaders as a teenager if you aren't good
Agreed - his ceiling is very high. Feels very much like the heir to Smith's throne. What little I've sen of Hotham looks promising.
Cam roigard is useless
Wake up any more jokes.😂😂😂😂
@michaelmoynihan9591 😂...the only joke here is you. You constantly troll anything All Black related with nothing valid or constructively objective to say - just trolling sniping remarks.
Clearly the ABs have been living in your head rent free for years 😅
michaelmoynihan9591
Shuddup amateur
He can potentially be a Joost v d westhuizen type 9, bigger than most with an eye for the tryline
I think Faff de Klerk is often underrated.
He is a solid anchor for the team, always there. So much interaction with the ball and his workrate is incredible. He does not shy away from the giants, make huge dives, try saving ankle taps an tackles, and he generally keeps that up for 80 minutes every game.
Agree. I think Faf will be remembered for his contribution to the WC wins. He and PSDT make it look like Springboks have two extra players on the pitch.
I think Faf will be in that convo in the years to come. He is a presence on the field.
It wasn't just New Zealand that didn't anticipate how good Gibson-Park could be. Leinster only saw him as backup to Luke McGrath. It was Andy Farrell that saw his potential and plucked him from the Leinster bench and started him for Ireland. Just shows what an eye for talent Farrell has, that he could see something in JGP that others didn't.
I think Roigard/Ratima/Hotham are all going to be world class. May end up being one of the best ever groups of halfbacks NZ have ever had at one time.
And in a few years that trio will have Jordi Viljoen nipping at their heels who at 19/20 looked solid in his 4(1 start) games for the Canes.
Yeah I remember years ago someone bemoaning when Weepu retired, how are we going to replace him? I immediately thought of 3 uncapped young halves, Perenara, Kerr-Barlow, and Smith. Just had Smith in last place, my mistake. At the moment I could take those 3 names of yours, and add 3 more. There is no shortage of promising young halves in NZ and any of them could go onto greatness. Not losing sleep over halfback at all.
Great discussion and analysis, Tim. Your grasp of the game shines through.
Keep your eye on Grant Williams .....
Agreed. He needs a start, maybe Rassie will start him against ABs. His speed is a bonus too.
@@WyndhamPGP he definitely has the most spark and potential of the current SA crop. Maybe van den Berg will develop, maybe not - but he's not nearly there yet.
Ja,this thing of coming off the bench because you're a so-called impact player makes no sense.When Marx replaced Bongi as a starter ,his impact was way higher than when he got his usual 30 Min at the end of the game.
100% hope Rassie has GW locked into that 9 position as we head towards the next RWC.
@Jesus_is_Lord_316 Yea, both Faf and Cobus will be to old then, I think Grant and Hendrikse will be coming more and more into their own
We're only two games into the RC, with the latest round hamstrung by rain, so far too soon to judge. From a Bok perspective, we're only just starting to move on from the double world cup winning Faf de Klerk era (a guy who effectively owned the Bok jersey for the past 8 years), and Reinach is in the twilight of his career too, so the newbies are going to take at least the rest of the season to make their marks 🤘
I believe that the modern day rugby laws have made imaginative scrum halves obsolete .
You've made an interesting point. Care to elaborate?
Thank you for this video. As someone new to rugby I appreciate this type of content over your player rating videos.
Out of a great Springbok team Fourie du Preez was just about the most important cog in that machine, always two steps ahead of the game....what a player
Justin Marshal deserves to be amongst the great scrum half players.
He gets a mention in the vid
very very under rated player
If he could pass, I'd agree.
Justin was not a good passer
As an Argentinian I always wondered if Marcos Moneta wouldn't make a great 9. He has de facto played the position in sevens when they want to run from the scrum, he has the fitness, the mental ability, he used to play 10 for his boyhood club, he certainly has the pace being the fastest sevens player currently. I mean it would be a shame to lose him as a sevens player, he has been the best in the world for some years now. But he could be a superstar 9
Bazan Velez was scrum half for the sevens team as well, and he had a hard time transitioning into 15s. I don't think sevens to scrum half is an easy transition, since the scrum half role in 15s is so different from any position in sevens. Which is also why we see most sevens 15s cross over in the loose forwards and backline.
Roigard is so highly rated in NZ. Its so unfortunate that he got injured as he was lighting up the super rugby beforehand. In his limited test matches, he already has a decent highlight reel. Hoping to see him against england in November this year!!!
Great video. For me it is Fourie Du Preez "Die Generaal". He was marshaling that great Bulls teams in Super Rugby, then for the Boks, but to me, his epitomy of performance and intelligence came to fruit in the 2009 British and Irish Lions tour to SA. Behind him, I'd rate Joost van der Westhuizen very high.
NZ have some excellent 9s coming though that favour a bigger more attacking mindset, something we maybe haven't seen since Byron Kelleher. Cam Roigard is largely hailed as the next great half-back, who'll compete with Cortez Ratima when he's back EOY. Noah Hothman is another young exciting 9 out of Christchurch who impressed against Fiji.
Grant Williams and EMbrose Papier are for me the two best 9's in SA at the moment, they are game changers,
Grant Williams!!
The new law interpretations may suit Papier.
@@coatknighthow so?
@Tar-ZA-n he has improved his speed around the ruck area and arguably one of the fastest around that area at the moment.
Yes Sir. From Argentina here a very Sad state of 9 and 10. At flyhalf S. CARRERAS, took over more as a need , great athlete. But he doesn't play 10 for his pro club so he needs to either move to a club that let's him play 10 or stop being the 10 at Pumas. 9 we really have a void. To importante of a position to have subpar 9.
Hopefully in this world cup cycle a young 9 comes out of the system.
But right now the position gets really exposed when there no perfect condition and the forwards don't dominate and produce extra time and extra clean ball. Sad times at 9.
France as you said has 6/9 scrum halfs that will start around the world
I think the best player in the world right now must be Cheslin Kolbe, he is very fast charging down conversion kicks, he can kick penalties even drop goals from half way, besides being a wing has played several back line positions including 9, scored a try in a world cup final, won back to back world cups, won an Olympic medal 2016, recently played hooker doing the lineout throw in, even first receiver on lineout throw in - considering there were 3 very tall options. Change my mind.
Scoring tries is the primary role of a wing, 14 career tries is sub-par. Not the best but certainly the most over-rated.
@@user-eq9jv5uf7d 15 tries, 1 every 2 matches which is what Bryan Habana achieved, he scores twice as many points on avg per match than Dupont. He did even better in 7s.
@@JohannesHamman Dupont is a halfback, his primary job is not as a finisher. Whichever way you sugar coat it, 15 test tries is well below par for a top international wing and will not feature in the top 100 top try scoring wings.
@@JohannesHamman Will Jordan has scored 33 tries in 33 tests, and even he doesn't have the best wing attack rate. Cheslin's stat is not as impressive as you think.
@@icefarrow7959 can we check how many world cup final tries he has, world cup final wins, 7s Olympic medals, 7s anything?
No doubt he is a good wing and heading to becoming a great one, my point is if people can throw around Dupont as the greatest rugby player there's others just as good. If you want to make Will's case to be in the mix, go for it. Cheslin plays for a team where majority of tries is score from the front. For a Springbok wing his stats are right up there. So how should one determine the greatest rugby player? That's the question.
If Grant Williams got more game time he would become one of the best the game has seen. Pure class, amazing skill and deadly speed.
💯
Two guys need a mentoon for me, both from the 1970's: Divan Serfontein from South Africa and Syd Going from the All Blacks. They were both very small but lightning fast.
Sjoh. Going back to the glory days. That was when Mannetjies Roux and Frik Du Preez were still going
SA Rugby needs to groom and nurture Grant Williams at 9.
He’s got everything needed to be the next scrum half superstar!
Totall agree.
Rassie is opening his options (beyond Faf), but I do think Grant is going to fill that space.
In terms of NH scrum halves, I think Rob Howley was just spectacular. And totally top tier. Better than anyone from England and Scotland. And likely Ireland Although Murry has been pretty good. (Irish fan)
The mention of marcus smith at 9 is so intriguing. A 10 who could see the game at 9, is a good observation. A 10 moving to 9 won't have that passing but he will make it up in creativity and game management
Love the observation on France vs England vis a vis scrumhalves....I think you hit the nail on the head.
Ford and Smith as 9, so interesting to imagine! As a french, i would have loved to see that but i must say I am more and more curious to see Marcus Smith trajectory, it is a joy to see him play. As for Santiago Arata who plays in Castres, it is said that he might move to Stade Toulousain with Antoine Dupont. Lets see , it would be crazy but i think it is definetly more interesting to have them in different team, for us at least cause I think he would have a blast in Toulouse
Thanks Tim - i agree with the French - scrummies are more important than the flyhalf and backline potential starts with the scrumhalf (obviously the forwards have to be good) as once that ball has been hooked (it's fed right under the Eight mans feet these days) it's the scrumhalf who then determines everything - flyhalf is totally dependant on the scrumhalf....
Agree sir...for SA....last " good" scrum halves were Fourie du Preez and Joost!
Good scrum halves marshal their teams. JGP is the best northern hemisphere 9 because he shapes his team to victory.
❤ from 🇿🇦
As I was growing up in SA, many, many years ago, the Scrumhalf used to be the one to control the forwards and link to the Flyhalf who would control the backs. But the game has evolved loads since then. Now the forwards are usually controlled from the back of the pack and the backs are controlled by both the Flyhalf and the Fullback. The Scrummie's job has totally changed over time, and each one seems to just concentrate on a much narrower set of skills.
I recall Robert du Preez senior. His long pass allowed Naas Botha to stay out of reach of opposition tackles and put over drop goals at will.
What an awesome, balanced and honest view of the current no 9's in the Southern hemisphere. I do think that Faf will go down in history to be at least on par with Fourie du Preez, but I agree that this is the ONE position where they lack the talent of the northern hemisphere (even if it is only Mr du Pont that we are talking about)! Would love to see Grant Williams be given enough opportunity to develop in the "new" SA no 9.
If Grant Williams is properly backed, he has the potential to being a great.
There is a "new blood" era. As part of the spine of the team a scrum half is one of the keys. Working behind a strong or dominant pack is easier for the SH to develop and rise to prominence. Rules are changing too.
With this in mind Dupont, Fourie du P, George G, etc have not all served in teams with depth of talent. Depth fits Strategy as a team - teams win matches not just individuals who shine - case example: RWC 2023 SA Vs France or SA Vs the ABs.
Peter Stringer and Conor Murray have both been excellent scrum halves, just saying.
I think some older All Black's fans may choose "Super" Sid Going as their best ever 😊
Haha...good shout
As a Bok fan, I agree - Going was a legend in his day.
had a fantastic running game
I met Sid Going in July 1970 in Johannesburg at the Casa Mia Hotel. He was a wonderful guy and he was very kind to a pesky 9 year old kid. I actually sat down and had lunch with Sid and Chris Laidlaw. The All Bkacks were pure class.
@@leoncolwin8645 you are a similar age to me , Sid had a bit of a cult following with all the kids in nz around that time . We all pretended we were Sid in the backyard rugby games . He was a much loved player .
Syd Going from the NZ 70's teams sticks in my mind as a really great 9
I enjoy your analysis and the change in narrative with this one but even more, as a Kiwi, your attempts at doing a Kiwi accent always make me laugh - keep it up :).
Good discussion. The game has changed, players are quicker, general law changes, ruck crocodile pick ups, have all had an effect, for good or bad!
Yes you are right , the good ones coming through are all quick, box kicking from the scrum base is getting more important
Agree 100 current no 9 worldwide is not up to standard.
Our 9 is fine.
As a Bok fan, Faf does, or at least did, have great attacking skills. I never quite liked him being told to do so much box kicking, but the team won two world cups with much of that in the strategy. Be that as it may, Faf emerged on the scene not as box kicker, but a great attacker. He is not one of the all time greats, but just wanted to weigh in on the implication that he was not an attacker.
But I think you’re right. The current bunch does not come close to, for example, Joost van der Westhuizen.
And definately for Australia, George Gregan was just a man we as Bok fans feared, even though it came across as “hated”. Same with Aaron Smith.
With Australia not being on form, a scrum half comparison is going to be unfair, but even the All Blacks today have nobody in that position that inspires that type of respect. Same wirh Pichot. So yes, all 4 Southern Hemisphere powerhouses are light on memorable scrum halves at the moment. That said, I wonder how Kolbe would have been as a (full time) scrum half.
This was a really interesting and good conversation! Wonder if there are any other positions that might have suffered similar fates?
Perhaps we can’t have more than 2/3 great scrum halves at the same time across the world and we should just be contend with Du Pont and JGP for now?
Grant Williams has potential to be a great!
🎯
Jayden Hendrikse will return as starting scrumhalf for the Boks, he is the game management, general type scrumhalf who Rassie likes to start game. Grant Williams is perfect off the bench, the speed and sniping from the ruck hits best in the second half. Happy with scrumhalf in SA.
Hasn't been the same since his injury before the World Cup. Not the fastest at clearing rucks either, so considering the new law application may not suit him either.
Hendricks pathetic, overrated, hopefully never to play for Boks again.
Jaden is a tortoise, he is average at best.
Agreed on your thoughts about 9 and 10. Rules should change that if he touches the ball at the back of the ruck the ball is out and opponent can go for a tackle or charge down. That will force coaches to play faster with more complete players.
I do think you are right about the culture in the countries. Its all about who the game drivers are. In 2009 Furie de preez was the game driver for the boks but as time went on South Africa moved the control of their team to the flyhalf. These days Pollard controlled the game and with all the x-factor flyhalfs coming through I do not see that changing. I do not think the drop off is to be worried about since some countries do not need that sort of scrum half. Atleast not anymore.
I have always rated Rory Kockott, South Africa really lost a great and I have been so frustrated with the Boks. I honestly believe Du Pont was sculpted by Rory's guidance.
Kockott, and his one Poeye arm, were great. Good point about the time with Dupont at Castres!
Interesting point as a mentor. Not so much as a player.
I think it's down to the evolution of the game. We (the Springboks) had greats like Joost & Fourie du Preez, but from a SA perspective, the current Rassie era team is (I think) all about the collective and not about the individual. Faf might not be the greatest individually, but his combination with Pollard or whoever is what matters. Being the link between our dominant pack and exciting players like Sacha FM is what it's all about. Creating the opportunity for them to carve up teams is more important thanbeing a superstar SH.
I don't think we'll have a Du Pont or someone like that soon, but hey? 1 player doesn't (always) make the team, does it? Again, this is just my opinion, don't come at me hahaha!
We don't have Dupont, no... But we do have Cobus Reinach. Scores his tries at a much higher rate, holds the record for the two fastest world cup hat tricks ever. Double world cup winner AND has achieved away wins against most of the top tier nations.
And guess what? I would still pick Faf. Because when you have to chase or defend 1 point with five minutes on the clock, I don't care how many like breaks this guy can do; Im thinking whether he has enough grit and determination to see this game through.
And very few people in rugby history has more grit than our blonde bombshell.
We also used to play directly off 9 a lot back then, even going 9 to 12 a lot, and the game was slower. We now play at a higher tempo and use 10 and 15 as play makers more than we used to. I doubt we'll see a superstar no 9 in this system to be honest just because of where the emphasis is in our game plan
@@Brendan_M_ All goes to what we want out of a scrumhalf. We have an insanely aggressive option in Cobus Reinach - just go look at his try scoring record.
But we go with Faf. Because accurate box kicks, always being present behind the ruck, immovable defense around the ruck and a calm demeanor is worth more to us currently.
@@randomlyfactual1943 Agree 100%! He has the dog inside him and I think that's what counts. Never give up. Never quit. Let's do it. And I admire him for it. Faf is also my 1st choice SH, but yeah, we don't have the 1 standout SH that'll change the game offensively. Defensively? All day long.
@@gerhardcronje8915 Plus... That Speedo by now is iconic. I mean, which celebrity will have a beer with him in 2027? That's the question we should be asking 😂
Thought provoking. Yes many countries always focus on the star being the first five eight. Gregan was always a factor when Australia was a force in rugby. Marcus Smith would have been a remarkable half back
When I heard "This is a bit of a different video" I immediately blurted out "but it's a good video Tim, and we need to talk about it."
Solid analysis. I was wondering whether I was falling into "rose-tinted glasses" these last two weekends, but as a South African I immediately felt that things would be different if Du Preez and Gregan were on the pitch. But as you point out if we have Sasha FM or Manie Libbok as playmaker at 10 does that take some focus away from the 9?
The French have a generational talent with Du Pont and building excitement and gameplan around that type of playmaker makes for engaging rugby. But I wonder if it wins games in the current meta? South African and New Zealand have been handy without superstars in that position. France and Ireland were close to glory bult ultimately fell short in the recent world cup.
I'm not sure if we're lacking a crop of incredible 9s, or whether the modern game (minus France) is best played with solid, if not remarkably attacking, 9s.
Great points, well made. I think you're on to something. It's really interesting to see how the game evolves and roles changing dynamically. Easier to assess looking back than AS it's happening, but fun to try!
Cam was brilliant for the Canes before his injury and will be the best half back in the world when he is fit and injury free. I'm also looking forward to see how Jordi Viljoen develops who didn't look out of place at super rugby level .
Hi guys, kiwi supporter living in SA. There were so many great scrumhalves in Southern hemisphere of the past, in my opinion Joost was SA's best #9! He was a complete player. Fourie du Preez was good, Faf was instrumental building up to 2019 rwc win he always kept his team on the front foot! Nz to many to mention, yes I agree with some comments Cam Roig. is an in your face player an extra inside center on defence and a player that can run hard at defensive lines etc. George Greagan 1 of the greats of the modern era. Tim in my opinion du Pont is a great player in a good team, sometimes also a showman, but will we ever see the French winning a rwc during his reign as 1 of best ever #9? What is his winning percentage as an influential player some statistics we can look at. His winning records against the likes of Ireland, boks and the kiwis. Great show Tim .👍
Aaron Smith didn't make the All Blacks until he was 24. Cam Roigard and Cortez Ratima are only 23 and Noah Hotham is only 21. All three of them look very good, with the potential to become great. But even Smith had to start somewhere, and these guys all have an opportunity to grow into the types of players you are talking about. I feel the ABs are stacked, but with potential. That's largely because with Smith and TJ not a lot of other guys got opportunities in recent times. Now with Smith retired from international rugby and TJ getting older, this young group has a golden opportunity to write the next chapter.
Williams will be right up there, Rassie's been preparing him for 2027 WC all along, he's got x-factor.
Played scrumhallf myself and the new style doesn't require your 9's and 10's to dictate play as much as they did in the past.
It's now become a 15 man game and that's also the reason for Rassie's success and the fact that we only had 1 player in the World XV in 2023.
If and when you develope the skills of all 15/23, you don't need a Fourie Du Preez or a Naas Botha.
Further proof is Du Pont, currently the best but he doesn't have 22 other skilled players to assist him, and that's why they didn't lift the WC.
Best ever; (1) Gareth Edward's (2) Du Pont (3) Fourie Du Preez
Loved Joost, he was like a 4th looseforward on the field to his own detriment, but Fourie by far the best and complete schrumhalf we've ever had.
Du Preez never got the credit/recognition, which was due to him, but you will often hear his teammates singing his praises when people ask them who were the best players you played with.
Often you'll find that those players also played with both Joost and Du Preez.
I loved this video!
Great questions and thoughts!
What an interesting notion, to think of Marcus Smith as a 9. I think you’re on to something in looking at the cultural differences that may impact selection. As for South Africa, I do think Grant Williams has a lot of upside, and if he can get more starts at the position, he could quickly start to look like an Aaron Smith. For the Kiwis, it’s too bad the young and talented Cam Roigard has suffered a rather serious knee injury that’s kept him out of circulation for months; he’s another one with huge potential, albeit a really different style of play than Smith or Perenara.
Roigard is a once in a lifetime half back, his return should open up the ABs attack because he’s a threat in tight. Aaron Smiths pass with TJs ability to operate as another loose forward.
Hard to go past the Bok team of the 1980s as their greatest of all time, with players like Danie Gerber, Carel du Plessis, Naas Botha, Uli Schmidt, Flippie van der Merwe, Jannie Breedt, Wahl Bartmann and so on. From a NZ perspective, they probably would’ve beaten our 1987 world cup winning team, and that one is accepted by many as being our greatest ever.
Yes, they actually beat the NZ rebel team that had only 2 different players that won the 87 wc. Divan Serfontein was the scrum half. Probably the 3rd greatest 9 after Joost and Fourie. Gerber, Carel du Plessis, Ray Mordt ect. Was an amazing team
I think it's tough because the position is shared with Antoine DuPont. No scrumhalf playing in the same era as DuPont will be remembered as fondly as he will be. That being said, I am very excited for our future with Grant Williams. Absolutely electric player, will be in the conversation for a great South African scrumhalf one day, but can't make a list of all time greats when you share your years with DuPont.
Boys and Girls, there is and was only one 9, Joost van der Westhuizen.
The rest including Du Pont will never touched him.
Even Jonah said it! .
Excellent! Keep on making us think. You’re the Best!
Great video, glad there are less box kicks.
Please do one on the fullback, i feel that's a position that's also changed and not as prominent?
Roigard was the best player in NZ to start the year he'll be back
He's the one I'm most excited about.
I'd be cautiously optimistic if I were you. He took a big injury, and sometimes players just never fully recover. Let's not forget Fakatava's never been the same since he got an ACL injury on the same knee, twice.
Joost, fourie Du Preez 👌🏻 easily best springbok scrumhalves of all time 🇿🇦🇿🇦
Gregan was unbelievable along with his halfback partner in crime no.10 larkham 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Tim,that was brilliant insight and highly repeatable,top man
I agree that Faff, while good, is not in the same league as Joost and Fourie were just on another level when it came to bossing the game. I suspect to a large extent it is because Faff was playing to a formula that ended up constraining his ability to impact the game. What it does mean though, is that for the past 5 years, nobody else really got a look in except Kobus. With the changing of the guard that is happening, the Springboks have an exciting crop of youngsters that need game time to prove that they should own the No 9 jersey. Only then can we begin to start talking about the next (potentially) great Springbok scrummie
Loved the angle on scrumhalves
I think Grant Williams, Kobus Reinach are right up there. Faf is extremely slow and rather lethargic at the breakdown these days and so fresh blood is absolutely necessary. In the days of Jooste and Du preez they played out of their skins but the general feeling was always there that they did not know how to win as a team most times unlike the double world champs we have now. The game has evolved but its the way the current crop can adapt their game makes them extra special.
I think Matt Dawson, Gary Armstrong and a couple of other GB&I stand outs would be with a shout in a top 10 discussion. Dawson was a World Cup winner, Lions worldie and top club player with amazing kicking options from tee and hand. Armstrong redefined borders half back play and dominant in so many areas. Tough as nails
Personally I think Grant Williams will be a superstar. Not sure why he's not getting starts at 9 at the moment. Would like to see him start in 3 or 4 consecutive test matches to see if he's up to it.
Back 2 back world cups we have done fine with Faf. His defence is legendary
For NZ maybe 10 is the focus of all : formation, pundits debate... I call it the Dan Carter effect. The 10 supersedes or sits asside the 9 jersey in the culture. To be fair it something that always dominated how teams played. Just my two cents and sorry 'bout my English.
Fred Michalack used to play both halves according to the whim of his coaches because he could do both but was a 10 at heart, it goes to show the french mentality about it. Also, Dupont was convinced that to pursue a pro career he should be a scrum-half when he was more of fly-half until 15-16 years old.
Roigard, Ratima and Hotham, future AB names to remember
Cause of the Lions tours,we rate Gareth Edwards in the top 3 Scrummies of all time,just behind Fourie and Joost
Winning forward packs make scrum halves look great.
A great point. Look at the difference between TJ Perenara last week to this week
I honestly think that defensive pressure has changed the way 9's can play. Most attacking plays are now made of the 10/15 with the exception of Du pont because he has a good boot and can play of the role of a 10. Most other 9's now only distribute the ball or box kicks for pressure and territory. I believe reinach could shine of he is given more time to get settled
This is a really solid argument!
The game has changed Tim, team tactics require certain actions for certain plays. Du pont is very because he is a game changer. I feel if they are given the chance they would do it.
Waiting for this since your Du Pont GOAT upload. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a team of solid performers is now more likely to assure regular wins, than a team where there are scattered superstars. The game appears (to me at least) to be more structured, and those past mavericks have less room to operate. 2c.
Really solid point, that. And could argue the scrum half role is more about simple things done well, consistently, than anything. Get ball away or kick, just do it fast.
Indeed, the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. There are most probably better players in almost every position in the Bok squad, but as a collective, they are a cut above.
Yes, Joost is a legend but not only in SA. He was just the nicest guy.
Faf will go down as a top 3 SA scrumhalf and reinach maybe a top 5. As always we will only know how good they are once they retire and can be compared to the greats. As a South African I think grant williams is our best 9 and we still have others that haven’t even been picked for the squad (Hendrikse,Papier,Jantjies,Nohamba) who could still have a shot at the 9 shirt
Think this is pretty harsh on Perenara historically. At times over the past 12 years, I truly believe he has been the second best 9 in the world, he just happens to be from the same country as the guy who was the best over that time span until Dupont came around.
He is definitely slightly past his prime now, and injury has robbed him of some of his spark, but at his best, he was the best try scoring 9 I've ever seen, an elite defender and a brilliant overall attacker and creator.
I agree with you apart from the best try scoring 9??? That was Joost
@@derekallan1341 certainly Joost was amazing, Dupont is also great on top of everything else he has. For me though, TJ is still the best, has an amazing record for NZ given how little he’s started and being the top try scorer in Super Rugby history as a 9 is absolutely remarkable.
@@blueboy1788 Joost was better than TJ passing tackling and try scoring. TJ cannot match Joost
This applies only to Australia, but when you went through the list of skills, athletic traits and split-second decision-making required of a top scrum half, it immediately occurred to me that nowadays in this country there is about a 5% chance at best that a young player showing that potential ends up in a rugby union pathway, and a 95% chance they end up on the way to being a rugby league ’spine’ position player or an Aussie Rules midfielder. What’s changed over the last 20 years is that rugby league scouts will sign young guys like that directly out of the ‘traditional’ rugby union schools!
Idk about all the other teams but the boks look solid at 9 for the future. Faf is out until next year it seems meaning we are gonna get to try out some of the newer players. Grant Williams is a fire scrummie that can do everything. Jayden Hendrikse is only about 24 and just came back from a long term injury and he's destroying people in the currie cup. Morne van den Burg has massive potential and people being ultra critical of him after the last game need to stfu because I'd like to see them step out into an international game at the age of 22 for the second time ever and throw the ball around in those conditions. He has massive potential and dismissing him over a game where he wasn't great but was playing in some of the worst conditions I've ever seen is completely unfair. Not to mention Nohamba who's another lions player who's only like 24 and he is a major talent. His only major issue is that he can't defend for shit (only attempts on average like 4 tackles per game and is only successful 48% of the time)
For me it makes sense that the one who touches the ball most, should be one of your best playmakers. I would not mind watching a game where Manie Libbok or DMac plays scrumhalf.
Super Sid Going has to be among the 'all time greats'...
Agree FdP and 2007 Boks was peak. Current team is well coached but only Etzebeth is a superstar. Joost was a great sniper but not quite FdP.
Joost was opportunistic and athletic. FdP was more of a team player who did his job with the precision of a Swiss watch.
Cam will be a superstar. He's got everything
Nohamba should get a chance imo. Lions should stop trying to make him a flyhalf because they don't have depth there.
His defense may be the issue.
Good question! From SA perspective you're right about the new Faf still to come through. You're right about the likes of Reinach too - I also don't see him as an enduring name. He's like a Divan Serfontein. My money's on Grant Williams, or perhaps Nohamba when he's fit.
Some great food for thought here, thanks as always, Tim. Do you think that the way you've described the role of the modern scrumhalf is any different to what it's always been? Including the floating defence. No 9 was my position and even in the 80s, it was about making sure you're at every ruck and making the right decision. If they had the ball you immediately headed across the field, tracking the ball behind your defending backline. So I'm not sure the job has gotten any harder? Although, second-guessing myself, the game was a lot slower back then, in terms of rucks being wrestling matches because they were allowed to hold onto the ball on the ground, as you remember. So the speed of continuity wasn't the same as today, very true.
This Du Pont thing - no one I've spoken to here, including my friends like me who were watching Gareth Edwards as kids, rates him in the category of best scrumhalves ever. And we find the idea of the best rugby player of all time quite strange. Personally I just can't mention him in the same breath as even French players like Jean-Pierre Rives or Serge Blanco. But as you said, that's a different can of worms, ha ha!
So back to 9s - we've had many a chat over here about whether Du Pont really fits in among Edwards, Gregan, Smith, Joost, Fourie du Preez, Justin Marshall, Sid Going et al. Hell, it was his mistake that almost lost the Olympics 7s match to the Blitzboks. I'm open to the idea that I might not have watched him as much as I should have, but that's my 2c :)
As an aside, I still mourn for what could have been Ruan Pienaar's career. He was still a fantastic 9, but SA rugby kept trying to turn him into a 10, and then a utility back. If he'd been allowed to just play 9, I thought he had the potential to be one of the greats in history. But sport can be cruel, right?
I wonder if the forwards and game plans were the same back then as today if those scrum halves would have performed the same…. I just can’t see someone sniping around a scrum or a ruck the way Joost used to actually working these days. Absolute legends of the game, but think the game has changed allot since then
The All Blacks could potentially have 3 world class 9s by the next world cup. Will be selection nightmare for Razor.