Funnily enough Fantasy Flight Games did come up with a brand new ship for X-Wing, the Raider class corvette, which ended up being used in some star wars video games. It likely depends entirely on what kind of licence deal a company makes for an IP. Some are going to be more restrictive than others.
For me, the biggest turn-off is the inability of the game designers to create new and interesting characters. Imagine how cool and creative some Sith could be in Shatterpoint, but instead we only have the canon characters. For all its (many) faults, at least GW can add literally anything to its 40k/AoS ranges to keep them fresh.
Well GW basically recycle their designs over and over again, the differences are that people wants to buy the new minis , in other games recycle or remake designs are a death sentence
There are plenty more ships which could have been added to the game, especially from the new shows, but AMG just didn’t know what to do with the games. They were foisted on them by Asmodee, who took it away from FFG. AMG never asked for it, and I doubt they even wanted it. They stopped bothering with new models a few years ago, and the game has been on life support since then, with card packs being released, and not much else. As far as I know, AMG still have the licence to produce stuff for X-wing, and Armada, but have chosen not to, for whatever reasons. X-wing could even have been expanded to ground assault games, which would introduce a whole new range of models, but AMG don’t want to. It’s not an issue of the license - it’s a license holder issue. The game died, because AMG just didn’t get it. X-wing was outselling Warhammer 40K at one point - it is an excellent game. Thankfully, Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, and STL files, exist, so I can continue to play x-wing for many years to come, printing unreleased ships, and repairing/ replacing my existing collection, as they degrade, over time… Cheers,
It’s also worth considering that Asmodee, AMG’s parent company, just had over a billion in debt shunted into them by THEIR parent company, Embracer. Expect anything that’s not profitable to get looked at and possibly axed to save capital.
@@crisismethodactor that’s the thing, though. X-wing and Armada would still have been profitable, if they had done anything with them. But they didn’t…
@@Wolf359incyup, they got the property and then sat on it, no rerelease of earlier wave ships, limited availability of just about everything, no development of anything new. I was a big Armada collector, but couldn’t find a lot of the ships, never was able to find Hammerhead corvettes or Imperial light cruisers.
Modern wargamers seems to have a need for fresh and continuos releases and metagame. Personally I like a limited games and good rules that don't change, so that is not a problem for me. I can play for years, just like chess its a good game that haven't change, historical war-games or a boardgame from decades ago.
Star Fleet Battles: bought the rights to everything in Star Trek EXCEPT THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE, in 1971 for 1500 bucks IN PERPETUITY. Was allowed to do ships from the show and technical manual. Can use uniforms, iconography from the show, can use the history in the show as a jumping off point. Has progressed the “SFB universe timeline” since 1971 with their own continuity. Still running to this day.
@@LetsTalkTabletop The guy in charge of Star Fleet Battles is super meticulous about satisfying every single line of their original contract. Because he knows that Paramount wants the deal shut down.
No joke, Wedge’s X-Wing as an alternate paint scheme would have been in high demand. Also, FFG created the Raider-class corvette for X-wing TMG and it was included in Star Wars Battlefront II. The demand for Expanded Universe (Legends) ships was always high and began in First Edition releasing the TIE Defender, Z-95 AF4, the YT-2400 Outrider, the TIE Phantom, the Assault Gunboat, etc. etc. etc. Star Wars X-wing the miniatures game has so much to pull from that is known by Star Wars fans. The issue was the switch from first edition to second edition, followed by the pandemic, then the move to AMG and 2.5. AMG did an awful job of keeping the game relevant post-pandemic because most of the players who had the massive collections and had switched to 2.0 hated 2.5 and how it focused on objectives and got rid of squad building as it had been known for 9 years. Coupled with AMG’s typical poor communication with XWTMG’s players (and Armada, who technically had it way worse) the game was doomed. I know it is pretty typical for Star Trek fans to not pay much attention to Star Wars, but it was not the licensing issue that drove away paying customers.
I'm aware of most of the points that you pointed out about the downfall of x-wing, but the main point of the video was that licensed games have many limitations and hurdles. I'm sure none of those limitations are hurdles helped x-wing. I am aware that they mostly shot their self in the foot with their customers. But license games still have a lot of problems.
I know Ash at GMG has been making the point that IP games have a limited universe to work in, but I have yet to see it. Imperial Assault got sued out of continuing. Armada died off pretty quickly after release, loooong before they were out of ships to make, and they tried to reinvigorate it with the Prequels and barely even got started there. Legion seemed to start on the wrong foot and they've tried to pump its sales up the entire run by trying new things, but they're still putting new stuff out for it. X-Wing may have run low on fighters, but that game died because of a failed edition change, straight up. I think pretty much every game has a life cycle unless it's 40K, and also IP based games have a limited number of things you can ultimately make into miniatures, but I have yet to see the evidence that somehow these two things are one and the same. People act like license holders are super restrictive, but they never present any evidence for this, and you can find plenty of examples where in the role-playing games or games like Imperial Assault, gaming companies have been given wide latitude to make up stuff. And why wouldn't they, companies like Disney like money, FFG likes money, you make more money by making up new stuff, whether that's a new character to make a miniature with or a new storyline to make a TV show with. Why would they be restrictive with the one action you can take to continue making money with their IP? No, I think there are deeper reasons why these games hit a wall.
Decades ago Iron Crown Enterprises ran into this issue with Middle Earth Role Playing. ICE eventually lost the license because they ran out of things that Professor Tolkien wrote and started creating non-Tolkien material, which was a violation of the License.
I was heavy into Heroclix when it first came out. By the time they released their first double-based mounted figures, I had so many unwanted repetitions that I couldn’t justify buying them anymore. This naturally led me to abandoning the game not long after. I tried again with Star Wars Legion, getting into it late. I hadn’t played it too long before Shatterpoint was announced 😢
Legion’s not going anywhere, if that’s something you were worried about. AMG’s presentation at Adepticon featured Legion, new legion, heavily. Odds are we’re getting re-masters of the starter boxes in fully hard plastic next year.
I have bought so many miniature games over the years, and none of them (not even 40k, primaris suck) have survived. Now I usually just buy a starter set and try the game out, if I like it then I get enough models to play even if the game becomes discontinued. I have Star Wars legion and was concerned by the points you bought up before I purchased it, I now have enough models to make around 5-6 Empire armies, 4-5 Rebel armies, plus mercenary units. This means if it gets discontinued I still have a huge variety of armies I can make, and if I can't find an opponent I can still play with friends buy letting them use models from my collection.
Even when the game is not licensed, it could still go away. Look at WHFB before Old World. Look at Aeronautica Imperialis. The latter was so nice that not many people played it, but I have big fleets or Orks, Eldar, Tau and Imperial Navy. Look at Battlefleet Gothic. Being an in-house IP is no guarantee the game won't get cancelled.
GW is a terrible company. They’re the epitome of greed which is why they stop supporting any of their products that aren’t contributing enough to their desired bottom line. It’s also why they’re constantly changing 40k around. They’ll add new armies so people spend a fortune for the next big thing. They’ll nerf that army you spent a year and $600 on and buff a different one. They seemingly care very little about streamlining and improving their gameplay. There isn’t really any thought to parity at all in 40k. I’m not saying companies shouldn’t make money but GW is slimy. They’re apparently going the woke route now which is causing a lot of uproar so I’m curious to see how that shakes out for them.
So, a few comments and questions for you: I find that games that offer miniature agnostic options help out when it comes to miniature issues. This way you can always set a scale of miniatures (25, 28, 32mm etc) and play with what you have and just not being owned by any company that will just... drop you at a tip of the hat. Game systems like Fullthrust and One Page Rules help in this regard and as long as YOUR collection matches, it's usually not an eye sore. In regards to how they did Armada and X-wing dirty, Yeah.... it's a spit in the face of collectors and gamers. It's really a shame that as consumers, we keep allowing this to happen time and time again. I am weary of playing any actual game system based upon IP on shows and what not. The new Star Trek: Into the Unknown game is just an armada for trek players, which I have a concern that unless they use other games like star trek online IP, that there just wont be enough content to keep alive. Armada had HUGE amount of lore and ships at it's disposal and look what happened to it. But in saying that, I can atleast collect ships super fast and have them for Fullthrust game system. My question: Where on earth did you get that federation shuttle! Is it a model or a 3d print?
Thanks! That is a 3D printed model of the shuttlecraft. Please check out my model agnostic fleet battle game Brutal Space! You build the ship's exactly how you think they should be, versus making them fit into a certain class like destroyer etc.
I think AMG looked at what it would take to produce future runs of models and decided there wasn't enough profit margin. That's part of why Destiny failed, the cost to produce custom dice wasn't going to turn a profit. (Which is probably due in part to the licensing fee and the debts left to them by Embracer Group.
The money grubbing behavior would have made GW proud, too. Things like releasing a ship no one wanted, except it had a good card in the pack. So, you held your nose and bought the pack to get that card for some other build.
That's literally what Underworlds does with universal cards. You don't like this warband? Well, if you want this powerful new universal card, pay up anyways!
I very much have a love/hate relationship with IP games. I've had a number of friends who'll buy in to most games that hit on an IP they love, but for the most part I feel like the best version of the story has already been done. I'm not interested in playing a game in Middle Earth or Westeros. It doesn't help that usually in fiction you want unbalanced forces to add to the drama, so a game gets caught in trying to be accurate to the lore, and in providing a great experience. A lot of IPs also feel very restrictive in how factions combine. You shouldn't have X-Wings and Tie Fighters in the same group for example. About the only scifi franchise I feel would be viable would be Babylon 5, but I don't know if there would be a market for that since it has been so long since the main series was produced. I'd love to see someone launch a game based on an original idea and have it succeed but I don't see it happening...
This is one of the reasons I moved away from mini games to just board games. As time went on I had less and less people that wanted to play (either due to time and, or money) and I mostly just do solo now. Mini games are huge cash dumps. I did Warhammer AoS and 40K for a few years and between the books, minis, paints and other accessories I dropped a small fortune on a few armies. I also got tired of their price gouging and constant rules changes. At least with board games, the ones with some type of dedicated solo for me, I just pay for the game, maybe some expansions and minor accessories and I’m good for a long while. At least then when I shelf it I’m not like “well there’s $1000” lol. Mini games are fun, but they keep your wallet open. Obviously I’m not saying all mini games are at GW levels of greed lol.
Yep. The trick I've found is to focus on the ruleset, and the miniatures be damned. Find yourself players (or just get your friends into it) who aren't precious about miniatures, and then go ham. I use easy Pick up and play rules like OPR for most of my games now, or Bolt Action or similar for any scenario not served by OPR. Everyone gets to decide what miniatures they want to use, nobody is precious about it, and everyone is having a nice time. I buy small 500 point or equivalent armies off ebay so I don't have to assemble and paint loads of models, and when it's game time, we just go "what do you want to do? Stormtroopers versus Uruk Hai? Let's GOOOO!" It's basically like the glory days of Rogue Trader, where nobody cared!
This is the computer game dlc model. Games are just consumables. This model spilt from the computer industry to the miniature industry. This is why fans of any universe should team up and adopt universal rules which allow any model to be used like One Page rule.
Original IPs have their own unique shortcomings too. If your IP doesn't interest people? Its dead before it started. Mechanics can keep interest but its only a matter of time before power creep, or simple complexity from new mechanics starts to lose attention. Lastly both ip and non ip are susceptible to 'we have to sell something' mentality. If its board game or rpg, and popular enough its inevitable you get a 'next edition'. Either way no system is perfect. The biggest thing you can do is play games even though they are 'dead'. Nowadays you can find plenty of communities for 'dead' card games (which are a dime a dozen). Do not let the perception of lack of commitment hurt your enjoyment. Play with friends. The rush to buy/play the next big thing just to be with that immediate large community is just as fleeting. Foster a small game group and play what you like.
Star Trek attack wing has still been hanging on. They still have a good deal left they can put out even if much of the standard stuff has been placed out already, it can be done.
I personally think mini agnostic games/rule sets are the best option. Add in a narrative factor (head canon or written progression) gives even longer lasting effects. The licensed characters give a product a shelf life or worse poor writing/creativity removes them from the characters they were. I use PrivateerPress a the best example of what not to do.
Huh. I guess I don’t care for licensed IP miniatures games upon reflection, since I don’t seem to own any worth mentioning. I have miniatures from at least three different licensed (and early unlicensed) Tolkien ranges, but no specific Tolkien rules to go along with them.
You nailed it! The Walking Dead, Aliens vs Predator, Aliens Another Glorious day in the Corps. Players are also a thing, they only want to buy stuff for their collection and have little interest in really supporting the game ie tournament play , you know real people! It also kills social media pages. Its all due to consumerism buy a ton of figures. don`t play the game.
I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that licensed games have to be of limited life span. You just need someone at the company with a plan. For example, FFG had their Arkham Horror card game which was a narrative game that could easily been converted to a Star Wars game. Making a story-based, narrative game would allow FFG to create new characters and location that could be then translated into their other games. Which is exactly what they do with their Arkham Horror setting. However, just before FFG lost X-Wing and Armada, there was an interview where the head of the studio basically said that he had no plan and FFG only made games if one of the game designers came up with the idea first. Which is why FFG as a whole seemed to lose focus a few years before the pandemic. You really need a well though out plan for how these games will grow for this to succeed. But Star Wars and planning seem to be as far apart as possible these days.
Though FFG did co-create the Raider with Lucas/Disney -- and it was quite cool -- and what's also fun is that with a limited set of ships, you can control the range of SKUs and make it easy for new players to buy in without being intimidated! The challenge is for those big-collection collectors -- and I'm convinced that the key there is to make BIG or altername Game Modes -- epic, cooperative, mission sets -- and for Epic, it was a bit too slow (battles like that more fun with Armada), and Co-op was done brilliantly by Josh Derksen and the Aturi cluster rules, but never integrated into the main game until right near the end!
Making a game "evergreen" collectible is less about "oh, that new unit is powerful" and more about there ALWAYS being a chance to just add one more thing. Snackable expansion model. I am not a crackpot
Spot on. I’ve started to go for a lot of solo play and coop stuff because I will always be able to play it. I’ve also managed to get stuff going locally with Mordheim. You can generally find players and GW can’t screw with the game anymore. It’s set. I won’t touch 40k or AoS again. The games that are doing the best are the ones GW have lost control of. Blood Bowl is doing great and there’s a solid community, you just need to find them. Same with LotR(MESBG) dedicated players who will keep playing if GW drops it. I think Warcry will go the same way. Now if I could just find people to play WHFB 6th edition with I’d be set.
I will be shocked if GW does not re-release mordheim. They know it has a following and they've already reintroduced titanicus more or less, and blood bowl and necromunda. You got to keep feeding that cash machine!
Nope. I play armada and xwing. Armada developed a brand new ship that was added to canon. The starhawk was designed by the armada guys. It’s now in cover of books, and featured in the squadrons video game. X wing has loads of legends ships. I agree. I feel exactly the same with the impermanence of games. And that is the real reason these games died. Old people like us we can play the same game forever. We can Inovate, expand, homebrew forever. Before moving across the ocean I had a historical war gaming group. We played with the same rules for decades; new custom campaigns every few months. Same game. People can’t do that anymore. People are incapable of making any decision that was not given to them by a company. Countless people sold their armada and x wing the day it was announced. That means those people do not want to play something they can’t spend money to play. Same with 40K. People got a stronger relationship with the company they spend than with the games they play. …. Magic and DnD players must be mentally challenged. For the former it’s just paper cards on sleeves. Why not just print every card? For the later rules have been free forever! I have concluded people no longer build relationships with gaming communities. Only with companies conditional on consumption. Those same people will have violent reactions if you suggest they can play without buying more stuff.
Wow, I completely agree with your take on this. I also get frustrated with the consumption attitude versus actually enjoying a game for a long term. I have no problem playing dead games, as long as I can find opponents. I do enjoy solo gaming, and that's probably my primary version of gaming, but I wore game as a social thing and if the crowd leaves the game, it makes it harder to play it.
What do you mean? Are you referring to fantasy? They got rid of one system and replaced it with another but it was the successor to that previous one. You're kind of right if you're referring to fantasy but it's not entirely true
In my experience I generally agree here- the Star Wars IP never interested me to begin with but on top of that the licensed lines just seem so boring. Its why Im mostly a Historicals player at this point. There is one notable exception in Marvel Crisis Protocol. Its especially strange because I dont care for comic books, but it seems to be going well. Certainly there is a little bit of multiple copies of characters (we're up to 3 Peter Parkers, 3 Red Skulls, 3 Steve Rogers, 2 Hulks, etc) but to me that isnt as bad because these characters are reinvented in the comics all the time, and so thats how theyre done on the tabletop too. Plus AMG have commited to 32 mm scale pretty hard so I doubt if theyll go the way of heroclix.
Yep. The only reason MESBG still trundles on is because they have a glacial release schedule and GW really don't want the franchise in the wild. It is, after all, what built their empire. I knew the score about franchise games when I bought into Armada, but hoped that they'd at least run it to a less cringeworthy ending. But it is still, and always will be, true. After you sell your sixth Spider-man variant you are running on fumes.
Im iffy on them for the same reason you are. For example, i really enjoy the ASOIAF minis game, but because Zombicide is so much more profitable that's where CMON's efforts go. ASOIAF players are stuck with a static, poorly developed game.
Well, if you want longevity and games, cool many or not is like the worst company for it. They pump and dump games non-stop via kickstarter. The list is extremely long
My biggest puzzlement was Armada. Tringles versus ovals. and at the scale it was, a bit restrictive. They could have ditched the scale, they definitely did when they released the Executor. They could have made the ships smaller so it actually felt like a fleet battle. But no.
I have a friend who taught me to play, it’s actually kind insane, it feels like your commanding a lumbering ship and not something nimble, it feels very rough, but it nails the feel better than any other tabletop I know about
I mean.. if you're unhappy with licenced games because they go OOP, and you don't like non-licenced games like Warhammer because they have edition cycles (they also go OOP)... enjoy Monopoly, I guess?
@@LetsTalkTabletop You see the point, though - as a miniatures wargamer of any stripe you need to be happy with eventually either just using what you have in a "dead game" for any licenced game or older edition of an ongoing game, or moving with the times and updated editions. Or just not playjng at all. You're totally right that all licenced games have a finite lifespan, but then, so do we - and all of your tabletop stuff remains, even the PDFs stay on. The only real tabletop games with danger of true obsolescence are the (thankfully few) App-only boardgames. I've still got my 1st edition Space Hulk, Necromunda, etc and while I also have newer editions, I have the choice of playing either and they all still work fine literally decades later, unlike "The Crew" by Ubisoft. All my X-Wing 1e stuff still works on my table. (I checked!) Games like Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic survived for decades without official support due to the community maintaining ruleset PDFs, and now with 3D printing you can still pick up and play any Epic or BFG force from scratch even though there's still no support from GW. X-Wing already has players setting up a LRB of sorts. 3D printing reduced the barrier to entry a great deal these days. It's still obviously not as easy as going to the FLGS or Amazon and ordering a starter set for delivery tomorrow, but it's still possible to start playing "dead" games from scratch Needing the latest edition of 40k/ToW/AoS/Bolt Action/Flames of War/Battletech/MTG etc is more of a playing PUG games against strangers in a store issue or if you consider yourself a competitive gamer for tournaments/etc. If you have a games club or regular gaming group or even just a couple of friends you can continue playing anything that's a tabletop game until you die or lose interest entirely. edit - typos
In theory it could just be about growing the fan base and selling the existing products to new customers. As far as Star Wars goes, just play the game you have. It sounds like the problem is the customers, not the companies. It’s not the company’s fault that people stop playing their games and move on to the new hotness. The two experiences I had personally were with Warhammer Fantasy and Warmahordes Mk2. Loved both these games, had everything I needed to continue playing them... except opponents. That’s not really GW or Privateer’s fault. The problem seems to be, that for all the complaints about “changing metas” and points costs and discontinued models.., unless a game is in a constant state of flux, it’s declared dead, and community wanders off, chasing the new pretty butterfly.
Yeah there is a large problem with that. Most people want opponents and they want something that's new or at least ongoing. Old Hammer does have quite a community behind it but it's not a fraction of the normal Warhammer community.
You should have looked into the Star Wars Destiny game. It was huge during the Sequel trilogy. Then FFG cancelled it 3 days after the last movie came out. It was blatant. Once FFG realized they weren't getting any new characters anytime soon they killed it, but kept X_wing, Armada, and Legion. The story of FFG is a sad one all around though.
Yeah, their founder definitely should have found someone else to run the ship. His management style has been described as “mercurial at best”…. My local store is owned by the guy and there have definitely been some idiotic decisions made.
5:56, its not like GW has exactly expanded on Space marines is it? They still have the few main types available they always had. Tactical, heavy and terminators and jump marines. I think they added a few more types during teh primaris marines and phase out of first borns but thats it. Its almost worse than been stuck in an IP cos all they do is bring out new models of the same units and constantly change the rules. Infact i;m tryign to think of a wargame that has an army that has consistantly expanded its unit type through teh years past its initial releasing out side of maybe 4-5 unit. Where as X-wing, every release was basically a new unit type which is a monumental thing try and do! And was done for 12 years. And with the extended universe they could have kept on doing it. It would be just more obscure ships and that doesn't bother fans really. Its nto really any different fromn GW adding a new unit really. No i don't think a licence is a problem.
Did you just suggest that Gamesworkshop comes to your home and takes your toys away because a new Edition of the Rules releases? Or do you think Fantasy Flight sends the repo squad to take your X-wings away, now that the license is gone? What kind of reasoning is this? Comparing it to live service video games where servers are being shut down and you physically cannot play the game anymore to miniature model games where all you need is some models and a ruleset, which all exist on the internet in PDF, legally or otherwise, and you literally could play it with cardboard cutouts on a base. The Game Police doesn't show up at your house because they detected you used a Revel X-Wing model kit to play the X-wing miniature game (obviously you'd have to adjust the scale a bit). Oh and shitting on Star Destroyers being all just a Pyramid shape... yeah... well... StarTrek Ships are all just a saucer with 2 nacelles hanging off a soapbar. Same stupid argument. Maybe don't shit on stuff you are not a fan of?
If someone thought about the issue for more than just a moment, it's not the fact that they come take your toys, it's the fact that as the years go on it is harder and harder to find opponents. There will be no more rules released, no more miniatures released, and no more support. I think that's probably pretty straightforward.
He's got a point about the older federation designs but they have mixed it up quite a bit in the recent decades. Also, he's only talking about one faction. Those aren't Star Trek ships, those are federation ships.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Bloodbowl had retained a committed fanbase without support for 2 decades. A dedication ultimately rewarded with a new edition. You also mentioned TWD getting a new edition again. I still have my Heroquest box from the 90ties and we have played them over the years. Miniature games are permanent, because all it needs is one set of rules and two people with the desire to play. This is vastly different from videogames where even new operation systems can render software obsolete.
@@mrspeigel3593 And the Olympic Class uses a Sphere instead of a saucer, not to mention the many Spade/Arrowheads... but that wasn't the point of that comment. Me being able to describe the difference between an Interdictor Stardestroyer and a regular one plays no bearing on stating you don't care and suggesting they all look alike, when the same can be said about the Fiction you like. Recognizable design language is a thing. Its why lot of Tyranid players will tell you that Tyranids have only 6 limbs.
I don't have an answer to what could have saved X-wing. Nor what kind of innovation could make licensed games successful enough in the long term to make them feel less like they're on borrowed time. But I disagree about how taking inspiration from obscure parts of the lore is an incorrect direction or decision for the game. Complaining about how there's obscure deep lore units in a niche game of an existing IP but then calling out hero marketing as cheap sounds like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. X-wing died because of multiple reasons. But I think blaming the game for introducing obscure ships from lore as a reason for its death is a disservice to a game that celebrates the marvelous machines of the franchise and the people behind the stick. Lightsabers and the force aren't the only things that make the franchise unique and its great to celebrate the other parts of it too. I think it's important that games like X-wing take the time to produce products that shine a light on these obscure ships because that's another vector to introduce things that old fans love to new fans as well. It's how interest in a sub-niche of the franchise can actually grow beyond just focusing on the main cast which becomes stale as people rightfully point out. X-wing is a game that was made for the player who may not have known that Vader flew a TIE Advanced x1 before playing the game but is just as excited to learn about that as learning about where Scyk fighters came from. Maybe there just isn't as many people interested in that part of Star Wars as we like to think there is and enough to sustain the game we love. And that's a pretty sad because that means less people to share a passion with.
Try my mini agnostic space fleet game Brutal Space!
www.brutalityskirmishwargame.com
Funnily enough Fantasy Flight Games did come up with a brand new ship for X-Wing, the Raider class corvette, which ended up being used in some star wars video games. It likely depends entirely on what kind of licence deal a company makes for an IP. Some are going to be more restrictive than others.
I didn't know that! I do know that Star Trek online has invented several ships that have now appeared in the TV shows.
In Armada they visualized the Starhawk and also made the Onager star destroyer.
For me, the biggest turn-off is the inability of the game designers to create new and interesting characters. Imagine how cool and creative some Sith could be in Shatterpoint, but instead we only have the canon characters.
For all its (many) faults, at least GW can add literally anything to its 40k/AoS ranges to keep them fresh.
Well GW basically recycle their designs over and over again, the differences are that people wants to buy the new minis , in other games recycle or remake designs are a death sentence
There are plenty more ships which could have been added to the game, especially from the new shows, but AMG just didn’t know what to do with the games. They were foisted on them by Asmodee, who took it away from FFG.
AMG never asked for it, and I doubt they even wanted it. They stopped bothering with new models a few years ago, and the game has been on life support since then, with card packs being released, and not much else.
As far as I know, AMG still have the licence to produce stuff for X-wing, and Armada, but have chosen not to, for whatever reasons.
X-wing could even have been expanded to ground assault games, which would introduce a whole new range of models, but AMG don’t want to. It’s not an issue of the license - it’s a license holder issue. The game died, because AMG just didn’t get it.
X-wing was outselling Warhammer 40K at one point - it is an excellent game.
Thankfully, Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, and STL files, exist, so I can continue to play x-wing for many years to come, printing unreleased ships, and repairing/ replacing my existing collection, as they degrade, over time…
Cheers,
It’s also worth considering that Asmodee, AMG’s parent company, just had over a billion in debt shunted into them by THEIR parent company, Embracer. Expect anything that’s not profitable to get looked at and possibly axed to save capital.
@@crisismethodactor that’s the thing, though. X-wing and Armada would still have been profitable, if they had done anything with them. But they didn’t…
@@Wolf359incyup, they got the property and then sat on it, no rerelease of earlier wave ships, limited availability of just about everything, no development of anything new. I was a big Armada collector, but couldn’t find a lot of the ships, never was able to find Hammerhead corvettes or Imperial light cruisers.
Modern wargamers seems to have a need for fresh and continuos releases and metagame. Personally I like a limited games and good rules that don't change, so that is not a problem for me. I can play for years, just like chess its a good game that haven't change, historical war-games or a boardgame from decades ago.
Is it modern gamers asking for new meta or is it companies trying to drive sales by adjusting the meta for every tournament?
Star Fleet Battles: bought the rights to everything in Star Trek EXCEPT THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE, in 1971 for 1500 bucks IN PERPETUITY. Was allowed to do ships from the show and technical manual. Can use uniforms, iconography from the show, can use the history in the show as a jumping off point. Has progressed the “SFB universe timeline” since 1971 with their own continuity. Still running to this day.
Pretty amazing game, this.
Yeah! What a crazy deal they got. That almost seems like a mistake. LOL
@@LetsTalkTabletop 1971, 6 years before Star Wars. The power of merchandising was unrealized and in some cases illegal:)
@@LetsTalkTabletop The guy in charge of Star Fleet Battles is super meticulous about satisfying every single line of their original contract. Because he knows that Paramount wants the deal shut down.
That would be the exception not the rule. No license like that will ever be seen again
No joke, Wedge’s X-Wing as an alternate paint scheme would have been in high demand.
Also, FFG created the Raider-class corvette for X-wing TMG and it was included in Star Wars Battlefront II.
The demand for Expanded Universe (Legends) ships was always high and began in First Edition releasing the TIE Defender, Z-95 AF4, the YT-2400 Outrider, the TIE Phantom, the Assault Gunboat, etc. etc. etc.
Star Wars X-wing the miniatures game has so much to pull from that is known by Star Wars fans. The issue was the switch from first edition to second edition, followed by the pandemic, then the move to AMG and 2.5.
AMG did an awful job of keeping the game relevant post-pandemic because most of the players who had the massive collections and had switched to 2.0 hated 2.5 and how it focused on objectives and got rid of squad building as it had been known for 9 years. Coupled with AMG’s typical poor communication with XWTMG’s players (and Armada, who technically had it way worse) the game was doomed.
I know it is pretty typical for Star Trek fans to not pay much attention to Star Wars, but it was not the licensing issue that drove away paying customers.
I'm aware of most of the points that you pointed out about the downfall of x-wing, but the main point of the video was that licensed games have many limitations and hurdles. I'm sure none of those limitations are hurdles helped x-wing. I am aware that they mostly shot their self in the foot with their customers. But license games still have a lot of problems.
I know Ash at GMG has been making the point that IP games have a limited universe to work in, but I have yet to see it. Imperial Assault got sued out of continuing. Armada died off pretty quickly after release, loooong before they were out of ships to make, and they tried to reinvigorate it with the Prequels and barely even got started there. Legion seemed to start on the wrong foot and they've tried to pump its sales up the entire run by trying new things, but they're still putting new stuff out for it. X-Wing may have run low on fighters, but that game died because of a failed edition change, straight up.
I think pretty much every game has a life cycle unless it's 40K, and also IP based games have a limited number of things you can ultimately make into miniatures, but I have yet to see the evidence that somehow these two things are one and the same. People act like license holders are super restrictive, but they never present any evidence for this, and you can find plenty of examples where in the role-playing games or games like Imperial Assault, gaming companies have been given wide latitude to make up stuff. And why wouldn't they, companies like Disney like money, FFG likes money, you make more money by making up new stuff, whether that's a new character to make a miniature with or a new storyline to make a TV show with. Why would they be restrictive with the one action you can take to continue making money with their IP? No, I think there are deeper reasons why these games hit a wall.
Yup. Licensed games have a very short shelf life. Xwing honestly had a good run.
Decades ago Iron Crown Enterprises ran into this issue with Middle Earth Role Playing. ICE eventually lost the license because they ran out of things that Professor Tolkien wrote and started creating non-Tolkien material, which was a violation of the License.
I was heavy into Heroclix when it first came out. By the time they released their first double-based mounted figures, I had so many unwanted repetitions that I couldn’t justify buying them anymore. This naturally led me to abandoning the game not long after.
I tried again with Star Wars Legion, getting into it late. I hadn’t played it too long before Shatterpoint was announced 😢
😰
Legion’s not going anywhere, if that’s something you were worried about. AMG’s presentation at Adepticon featured Legion, new legion, heavily. Odds are we’re getting re-masters of the starter boxes in fully hard plastic next year.
Yup, good examples, especially with clix.
I have bought so many miniature games over the years, and none of them (not even 40k, primaris suck) have survived.
Now I usually just buy a starter set and try the game out, if I like it then I get enough models to play even if the game becomes discontinued.
I have Star Wars legion and was concerned by the points you bought up before I purchased it, I now have enough models to make around 5-6 Empire armies, 4-5 Rebel armies, plus mercenary units. This means if it gets discontinued I still have a huge variety of armies I can make, and if I can't find an opponent I can still play with friends buy letting them use models from my collection.
That's a nice attitude to have!
Even when the game is not licensed, it could still go away. Look at WHFB before Old World. Look at Aeronautica Imperialis. The latter was so nice that not many people played it, but I have big fleets or Orks, Eldar, Tau and Imperial Navy. Look at Battlefleet Gothic. Being an in-house IP is no guarantee the game won't get cancelled.
GW is a terrible company. They’re the epitome of greed which is why they stop supporting any of their products that aren’t contributing enough to their desired bottom line. It’s also why they’re constantly changing 40k around. They’ll add new armies so people spend a fortune for the next big thing. They’ll nerf that army you spent a year and $600 on and buff a different one. They seemingly care very little about streamlining and improving their gameplay. There isn’t really any thought to parity at all in 40k. I’m not saying companies shouldn’t make money but GW is slimy. They’re apparently going the woke route now which is causing a lot of uproar so I’m curious to see how that shakes out for them.
@@petethehawk5186 So...what are you trying to say?
So, a few comments and questions for you:
I find that games that offer miniature agnostic options help out when it comes to miniature issues. This way you can always set a scale of miniatures (25, 28, 32mm etc) and play with what you have and just not being owned by any company that will just... drop you at a tip of the hat.
Game systems like Fullthrust and One Page Rules help in this regard and as long as YOUR collection matches, it's usually not an eye sore. In regards to how they did Armada and X-wing dirty, Yeah.... it's a spit in the face of collectors and gamers. It's really a shame that as consumers, we keep allowing this to happen time and time again. I am weary of playing any actual game system based upon IP on shows and what not. The new Star Trek: Into the Unknown game is just an armada for trek players, which I have a concern that unless they use other games like star trek online IP, that there just wont be enough content to keep alive. Armada had HUGE amount of lore and ships at it's disposal and look what happened to it. But in saying that, I can atleast collect ships super fast and have them for Fullthrust game system.
My question: Where on earth did you get that federation shuttle! Is it a model or a 3d print?
Thanks! That is a 3D printed model of the shuttlecraft.
Please check out my model agnostic fleet battle game Brutal Space! You build the ship's exactly how you think they should be, versus making them fit into a certain class like destroyer etc.
I think AMG looked at what it would take to produce future runs of models and decided there wasn't enough profit margin. That's part of why Destiny failed, the cost to produce custom dice wasn't going to turn a profit. (Which is probably due in part to the licensing fee and the debts left to them by Embracer Group.
The money grubbing behavior would have made GW proud, too. Things like releasing a ship no one wanted, except it had a good card in the pack. So, you held your nose and bought the pack to get that card for some other build.
Don't say that too loud or GW will catch wind and all minis will be blind boosters. They already tried that once.
@@LetsTalkTabletopfortunately, it seemed to be a flash in the pan for GW. My LHS still has the blind box Blood Angels no one wants.
That's literally what Underworlds does with universal cards. You don't like this warband? Well, if you want this powerful new universal card, pay up anyways!
We still play Battletech, 1st Ed AD&D, 1st Ed Star Wars all of which are around 40 years old.
I very much have a love/hate relationship with IP games. I've had a number of friends who'll buy in to most games that hit on an IP they love, but for the most part I feel like the best version of the story has already been done. I'm not interested in playing a game in Middle Earth or Westeros. It doesn't help that usually in fiction you want unbalanced forces to add to the drama, so a game gets caught in trying to be accurate to the lore, and in providing a great experience.
A lot of IPs also feel very restrictive in how factions combine. You shouldn't have X-Wings and Tie Fighters in the same group for example. About the only scifi franchise I feel would be viable would be Babylon 5, but I don't know if there would be a market for that since it has been so long since the main series was produced. I'd love to see someone launch a game based on an original idea and have it succeed but I don't see it happening...
And then there’s CMON with asoiaf making up units left and right in the Game of Thrones IP all with George RR Martins blessing.
This is one of the reasons I moved away from mini games to just board games. As time went on I had less and less people that wanted to play (either due to time and, or money) and I mostly just do solo now. Mini games are huge cash dumps. I did Warhammer AoS and 40K for a few years and between the books, minis, paints and other accessories I dropped a small fortune on a few armies. I also got tired of their price gouging and constant rules changes. At least with board games, the ones with some type of dedicated solo for me, I just pay for the game, maybe some expansions and minor accessories and I’m good for a long while. At least then when I shelf it I’m not like “well there’s $1000” lol. Mini games are fun, but they keep your wallet open. Obviously I’m not saying all mini games are at GW levels of greed lol.
Yep. The trick I've found is to focus on the ruleset, and the miniatures be damned.
Find yourself players (or just get your friends into it) who aren't precious about miniatures, and then go ham.
I use easy Pick up and play rules like OPR for most of my games now, or Bolt Action or similar for any scenario not served by OPR. Everyone gets to decide what miniatures they want to use, nobody is precious about it, and everyone is having a nice time. I buy small 500 point or equivalent armies off ebay so I don't have to assemble and paint loads of models, and when it's game time, we just go "what do you want to do? Stormtroopers versus Uruk Hai? Let's GOOOO!"
It's basically like the glory days of Rogue Trader, where nobody cared!
subbed! love your content so far! right up my alley! keep up the great work!
Thank you so much for saying that!
Small correction. New items and lore can be added to the IP if the license allow or the owner approves
FASA's Star Trek was my jam for years, same with Star Wars by West End. But as soon as Star Wars ended I said I was done with IP materials in games.
T-wing does exist in Star Wars legends. It was a cheap interceptor.
This is the computer game dlc model. Games are just consumables. This model spilt from the computer industry to the miniature industry. This is why fans of any universe should team up and adopt universal rules which allow any model to be used like One Page rule.
Original IPs have their own unique shortcomings too. If your IP doesn't interest people? Its dead before it started. Mechanics can keep interest but its only a matter of time before power creep, or simple complexity from new mechanics starts to lose attention. Lastly both ip and non ip are susceptible to 'we have to sell something' mentality. If its board game or rpg, and popular enough its inevitable you get a 'next edition'.
Either way no system is perfect. The biggest thing you can do is play games even though they are 'dead'. Nowadays you can find plenty of communities for 'dead' card games (which are a dime a dozen). Do not let the perception of lack of commitment hurt your enjoyment. Play with friends.
The rush to buy/play the next big thing just to be with that immediate large community is just as fleeting. Foster a small game group and play what you like.
Star Trek attack wing has still been hanging on. They still have a good deal left they can put out even if much of the standard stuff has been placed out already, it can be done.
I personally think mini agnostic games/rule sets are the best option.
Add in a narrative factor (head canon or written progression) gives even longer lasting effects.
The licensed characters give a product a shelf life or worse poor writing/creativity removes them from the characters they were.
I use PrivateerPress a the best example of what not to do.
Shameless plug, but you should check out my miniature agnostic game Brutality Skirmish Wargame.
@@LetsTalkTabletop it’s on my game groups docket for this fall 😅
YESSSSSSS!!
Huh. I guess I don’t care for licensed IP miniatures games upon reflection, since I don’t seem to own any worth mentioning. I have miniatures from at least three different licensed (and early unlicensed) Tolkien ranges, but no specific Tolkien rules to go along with them.
You nailed it! The Walking Dead, Aliens vs Predator, Aliens Another Glorious day in the Corps. Players are also a thing, they only want to buy stuff for their collection and have little interest in really supporting the game ie tournament play , you know real people!
It also kills social media pages.
Its all due to consumerism buy a ton of figures. don`t play the game.
I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that licensed games have to be of limited life span. You just need someone at the company with a plan. For example, FFG had their Arkham Horror card game which was a narrative game that could easily been converted to a Star Wars game. Making a story-based, narrative game would allow FFG to create new characters and location that could be then translated into their other games. Which is exactly what they do with their Arkham Horror setting.
However, just before FFG lost X-Wing and Armada, there was an interview where the head of the studio basically said that he had no plan and FFG only made games if one of the game designers came up with the idea first. Which is why FFG as a whole seemed to lose focus a few years before the pandemic. You really need a well though out plan for how these games will grow for this to succeed. But Star Wars and planning seem to be as far apart as possible these days.
GWs license was for the movies is the problem. It’s basically a dead game and has been for years and years.
Though FFG did co-create the Raider with Lucas/Disney -- and it was quite cool -- and what's also fun is that with a limited set of ships, you can control the range of SKUs and make it easy for new players to buy in without being intimidated! The challenge is for those big-collection collectors -- and I'm convinced that the key there is to make BIG or altername Game Modes -- epic, cooperative, mission sets -- and for Epic, it was a bit too slow (battles like that more fun with Armada), and Co-op was done brilliantly by Josh Derksen and the Aturi cluster rules, but never integrated into the main game until right near the end!
Making a game "evergreen" collectible is less about "oh, that new unit is powerful" and more about there ALWAYS being a chance to just add one more thing. Snackable expansion model. I am not a crackpot
Spot on. I’ve started to go for a lot of solo play and coop stuff because I will always be able to play it. I’ve also managed to get stuff going locally with Mordheim. You can generally find players and GW can’t screw with the game anymore. It’s set. I won’t touch 40k or AoS again. The games that are doing the best are the ones GW have lost control of. Blood Bowl is doing great and there’s a solid community, you just need to find them. Same with LotR(MESBG) dedicated players who will keep playing if GW drops it. I think Warcry will go the same way.
Now if I could just find people to play WHFB 6th edition with I’d be set.
I will be shocked if GW does not re-release mordheim. They know it has a following and they've already reintroduced titanicus more or less, and blood bowl and necromunda. You got to keep feeding that cash machine!
Nope. I play armada and xwing. Armada developed a brand new ship that was added to canon. The starhawk was designed by the armada guys. It’s now in cover of books, and featured in the squadrons video game.
X wing has loads of legends ships.
I agree. I feel exactly the same with the impermanence of games. And that is the real reason these games died.
Old people like us we can play the same game forever. We can Inovate, expand, homebrew forever. Before moving across the ocean I had a historical war gaming group. We played with the same rules for decades; new custom campaigns every few months. Same game.
People can’t do that anymore. People are incapable of making any decision that was not given to them by a company.
Countless people sold their armada and x wing the day it was announced. That means those people do not want to play something they can’t spend money to play.
Same with 40K. People got a stronger relationship with the company they spend than with the games they play.
…. Magic and DnD players must be mentally challenged. For the former it’s just paper cards on sleeves. Why not just print every card? For the later rules have been free forever!
I have concluded people no longer build relationships with gaming communities. Only with companies conditional on consumption.
Those same people will have violent reactions if you suggest they can play without buying more stuff.
Wow, I completely agree with your take on this. I also get frustrated with the consumption attitude versus actually enjoying a game for a long term. I have no problem playing dead games, as long as I can find opponents. I do enjoy solo gaming, and that's probably my primary version of gaming, but I wore game as a social thing and if the crowd leaves the game, it makes it harder to play it.
When i first saw this i basically knew this would happen...i played Star Trek AW...the IP with that was worse.
Yeah, Star Trek attack Wing performed even worse financially.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Star Wars for the general gaming public is more popular than ST anyway...''Oh look ANOTHER Vorcha...''
"Games Workshop probably isn't getting rid of Warhammer any time soon." You mean, again?
What do you mean? Are you referring to fantasy? They got rid of one system and replaced it with another but it was the successor to that previous one. You're kind of right if you're referring to fantasy but it's not entirely true
@@LetsTalkTabletop I think they got rid of Fantasy in 2010 and brought Sigmar out in 2015. So a good gap.
A lot of people still play 2nd edition 40k, from like... 1993. The oldhammer community is growing fast, due to the suck that has been 8th/9th/10th
In my experience I generally agree here- the Star Wars IP never interested me to begin with but on top of that the licensed lines just seem so boring. Its why Im mostly a Historicals player at this point.
There is one notable exception in Marvel Crisis Protocol. Its especially strange because I dont care for comic books, but it seems to be going well. Certainly there is a little bit of multiple copies of characters (we're up to 3 Peter Parkers, 3 Red Skulls, 3 Steve Rogers, 2 Hulks, etc) but to me that isnt as bad because these characters are reinvented in the comics all the time, and so thats how theyre done on the tabletop too. Plus AMG have commited to 32 mm scale pretty hard so I doubt if theyll go the way of heroclix.
Yep. The only reason MESBG still trundles on is because they have a glacial release schedule and GW really don't want the franchise in the wild. It is, after all, what built their empire.
I knew the score about franchise games when I bought into Armada, but hoped that they'd at least run it to a less cringeworthy ending.
But it is still, and always will be, true. After you sell your sixth Spider-man variant you are running on fumes.
Solid video dude!
Im iffy on them for the same reason you are. For example, i really enjoy the ASOIAF minis game, but because Zombicide is so much more profitable that's where CMON's efforts go. ASOIAF players are stuck with a static, poorly developed game.
Well, if you want longevity and games, cool many or not is like the worst company for it. They pump and dump games non-stop via kickstarter. The list is extremely long
Flying Frog Productions have built their own IP with Shadows of Brimstone, Fortune & Glory and others
Try Malifaux best game i know
My biggest puzzlement was Armada. Tringles versus ovals. and at the scale it was, a bit restrictive. They could have ditched the scale, they definitely did when they released the Executor.
They could have made the ships smaller so it actually felt like a fleet battle. But no.
Lovely model but the game looked slow...mush smaller ships and leave the fighters out of it.
I have a friend who taught me to play, it’s actually kind insane, it feels like your commanding a lumbering ship and not something nimble, it feels very rough, but it nails the feel better than any other tabletop I know about
I mean.. if you're unhappy with licenced games because they go OOP, and you don't like non-licenced games like Warhammer because they have edition cycles (they also go OOP)... enjoy Monopoly, I guess?
Lol. But monopoly has so many editions too!!!
@@LetsTalkTabletop You see the point, though - as a miniatures wargamer of any stripe you need to be happy with eventually either just using what you have in a "dead game" for any licenced game or older edition of an ongoing game, or moving with the times and updated editions. Or just not playjng at all.
You're totally right that all licenced games have a finite lifespan, but then, so do we - and all of your tabletop stuff remains, even the PDFs stay on.
The only real tabletop games with danger of true obsolescence are the (thankfully few) App-only boardgames.
I've still got my 1st edition Space Hulk, Necromunda, etc and while I also have newer editions, I have the choice of playing either and they all still work fine literally decades later, unlike "The Crew" by Ubisoft. All my X-Wing 1e stuff still works on my table. (I checked!)
Games like Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic survived for decades without official support due to the community maintaining ruleset PDFs, and now with 3D printing you can still pick up and play any Epic or BFG force from scratch even though there's still no support from GW. X-Wing already has players setting up a LRB of sorts.
3D printing reduced the barrier to entry a great deal these days. It's still obviously not as easy as going to the FLGS or Amazon and ordering a starter set for delivery tomorrow, but it's still possible to start playing "dead" games from scratch
Needing the latest edition of 40k/ToW/AoS/Bolt Action/Flames of War/Battletech/MTG etc is more of a playing PUG games against strangers in a store issue or if you consider yourself a competitive gamer for tournaments/etc. If you have a games club or regular gaming group or even just a couple of friends you can continue playing anything that's a tabletop game until you die or lose interest entirely.
edit - typos
One page rules exist.
These types of properties mostly bore me. I avoid them too.
X-Wing got killed cause of money problems.
In theory it could just be about growing the fan base and selling the existing products to new customers. As far as Star Wars goes, just play the game you have. It sounds like the problem is the customers, not the companies. It’s not the company’s fault that people stop playing their games and move on to the new hotness. The two experiences I had personally were with Warhammer Fantasy and Warmahordes Mk2. Loved both these games, had everything I needed to continue playing them... except opponents. That’s not really GW or Privateer’s fault. The problem seems to be, that for all the complaints about “changing metas” and points costs and discontinued models.., unless a game is in a constant state of flux, it’s declared dead, and community wanders off, chasing the new pretty butterfly.
Yeah there is a large problem with that. Most people want opponents and they want something that's new or at least ongoing. Old Hammer does have quite a community behind it but it's not a fraction of the normal Warhammer community.
You should have looked into the Star Wars Destiny game. It was huge during the Sequel trilogy. Then FFG cancelled it 3 days after the last movie came out. It was blatant. Once FFG realized they weren't getting any new characters anytime soon they killed it, but kept X_wing, Armada, and Legion. The story of FFG is a sad one all around though.
Yeah, their founder definitely should have found someone else to run the ship. His management style has been described as “mercurial at best”…. My local store is owned by the guy and there have definitely been some idiotic decisions made.
5:56, its not like GW has exactly expanded on Space marines is it?
They still have the few main types available they always had. Tactical, heavy and terminators and jump marines. I think they added a few more types during teh primaris marines and phase out of first borns but thats it. Its almost worse than been stuck in an IP cos all they do is bring out new models of the same units and constantly change the rules. Infact i;m tryign to think of a wargame that has an army that has consistantly expanded its unit type through teh years past its initial releasing out side of maybe 4-5 unit. Where as X-wing, every release was basically a new unit type which is a monumental thing try and do! And was done for 12 years.
And with the extended universe they could have kept on doing it. It would be just more obscure ships and that doesn't bother fans really. Its nto really any different fromn GW adding a new unit really.
No i don't think a licence is a problem.
Did you just suggest that Gamesworkshop comes to your home and takes your toys away because a new Edition of the Rules releases? Or do you think Fantasy Flight sends the repo squad to take your X-wings away, now that the license is gone? What kind of reasoning is this? Comparing it to live service video games where servers are being shut down and you physically cannot play the game anymore to miniature model games where all you need is some models and a ruleset, which all exist on the internet in PDF, legally or otherwise, and you literally could play it with cardboard cutouts on a base.
The Game Police doesn't show up at your house because they detected you used a Revel X-Wing model kit to play the X-wing miniature game (obviously you'd have to adjust the scale a bit).
Oh and shitting on Star Destroyers being all just a Pyramid shape... yeah... well... StarTrek Ships are all just a saucer with 2 nacelles hanging off a soapbar. Same stupid argument. Maybe don't shit on stuff you are not a fan of?
If someone thought about the issue for more than just a moment, it's not the fact that they come take your toys, it's the fact that as the years go on it is harder and harder to find opponents. There will be no more rules released, no more miniatures released, and no more support. I think that's probably pretty straightforward.
Hey mister, Star Trek ships can have up to 4 nacelles 😊
He's got a point about the older federation designs but they have mixed it up quite a bit in the recent decades. Also, he's only talking about one faction. Those aren't Star Trek ships, those are federation ships.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Bloodbowl had retained a committed fanbase without support for 2 decades. A dedication ultimately rewarded with a new edition. You also mentioned TWD getting a new edition again.
I still have my Heroquest box from the 90ties and we have played them over the years. Miniature games are permanent, because all it needs is one set of rules and two people with the desire to play. This is vastly different from videogames where even new operation systems can render software obsolete.
@@mrspeigel3593 And the Olympic Class uses a Sphere instead of a saucer, not to mention the many Spade/Arrowheads... but that wasn't the point of that comment. Me being able to describe the difference between an Interdictor Stardestroyer and a regular one plays no bearing on stating you don't care and suggesting they all look alike, when the same can be said about the Fiction you like. Recognizable design language is a thing. Its why lot of Tyranid players will tell you that Tyranids have only 6 limbs.
I don't have an answer to what could have saved X-wing. Nor what kind of innovation could make licensed games successful enough in the long term to make them feel less like they're on borrowed time. But I disagree about how taking inspiration from obscure parts of the lore is an incorrect direction or decision for the game.
Complaining about how there's obscure deep lore units in a niche game of an existing IP but then calling out hero marketing as cheap sounds like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
X-wing died because of multiple reasons. But I think blaming the game for introducing obscure ships from lore as a reason for its death is a disservice to a game that celebrates the marvelous machines of the franchise and the people behind the stick. Lightsabers and the force aren't the only things that make the franchise unique and its great to celebrate the other parts of it too.
I think it's important that games like X-wing take the time to produce products that shine a light on these obscure ships because that's another vector to introduce things that old fans love to new fans as well. It's how interest in a sub-niche of the franchise can actually grow beyond just focusing on the main cast which becomes stale as people rightfully point out.
X-wing is a game that was made for the player who may not have known that Vader flew a TIE Advanced x1 before playing the game but is just as excited to learn about that as learning about where Scyk fighters came from.
Maybe there just isn't as many people interested in that part of Star Wars as we like to think there is and enough to sustain the game we love. And that's a pretty sad because that means less people to share a passion with.