Boxing: modern vs old school. Are they even the same sport?
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2023
- Q&A with the Coach. How do modern boxers compare with old school boxers from 1920-1980? Better question: are we even comparing the same sport? No… no we are not.
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Ramsey Dewey is a retired pro fighter, combat sports coach, referee, and fight commentator… and occasional musician based in Shanghai, China.
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This video features original music by Ramsey Dewey
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I fought professionally in Mixed Martial arts, Sanda, Muay Thai, K1 and American kickboxing from 2004-2011 when I was forced to retire due to a broken skull and being blinded in one eye. I hold a brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Black belts in multiple traditional martial arts, including Taekwondo and kyokushin karate. I also train in catch wrestling, sambo, taijiquan, judo, and boxing.
I currently coach at the Animal MMA gym, the Extreme Fight Lab, and the Mordor Fight Club, all in Shanghai, China. - Sport
Jack Dempsey even said back then that boxing skill has been diluted, god knows what he'd think about it today
He never had to deal with the speed and power of tyson or the hight and reach of the klichko brothers. I respect what he had to say, but he would get crushed. The sports has changed, but there is still great talent being born.
@@fatcatpeople he would simply cut down to a lower weight class these days, you’re talking about his physical traits vs modern heavyweights and ignoring the skill part of the equation. Although I do personally believe boxers in the 70’s to 90’s were completely beyond anyone in the 1910’s to 1960’s
@@fatcatpeople yeah, maybe in the rule set of recent years hed lose . but the rule set of his time , I’m sure he’d stomp a lot of guys
@@sinelacico823 looking at some of those fight's I was never impressed with there skills. I think its the romance of the old verses new. Im tired of it. Tyson would walk through thise guys. I respect them all but the elites like tyson and the rest have evolved past them.
@@rivermoore6179 a lot of the rules are saving boxers, like it would save him with a standing 8 count. It would give him time to realize he had been passed by younger stronger fighters. Even at this prime he would loose to the best 90's fighters. ✌🏾
The biggest difference with boxing in the 1800's that you didn't mention was that holding and hitting, and throwing were allowed. Often, a major strategy was to get in close, put them in a headlock, and punch them until they escaped, or even throw them with the hope that the impact on the dirt would knock them out.
In the 1700's the difference was even greater; back then, there were no rules about what part of your body you hit with. While kicks were uncommon, they were legal, as were elbows and headbutts.
If anything, historical boxing most closely resembles boxing for MMA.
kind of like muay thai, minus the headlocks
I noticed older boxing coaches know a lot of clinching and trapping
You can notice that a lot of striking arts lost their grappling elements for sake of sport rules, clarity etc. Savate in ring is just kickboxing with specific distance and footwork, but as whole it included cane fighting ang grappling. A lot of karate people have no idea how much throws and locks are hidden in kata and they try to interpret almost everything as hits or blocks. Similar thing with wushu people, especially when they focus on competition forms. I love sanda for its huge number of catches and throws and i hope it will never turn into just another form of kickboxing.
There is a manual on boxing written in the 1860s that actually goes through the mechanics of the standing guillotine choke! Apparently physically choking your opponent into unconsciousness was allowed as long as you both stood the whole time and neither of you touched below the belt.
@@connorperrett9559 Now that,s something i did not know yet, gotta check on this. It seems once more that a lot of modern defense, fighting etc. is just reinventing and rediscovering of techniques.
Does it feel like Older boxers approached it more like a martial art, whereas modern boxers approach it more like a Combat Sport? If that makes any sense.
🤔good question
Maybe because they didn't look at it mainly for self defense situations, now people pick up boxing to prepare for self defense scenarios. A sign of the times we're living in, more chaos and unpredictability in everyday life.
@@frankwoods6821 🤔👍🏽
Bare knuckle boxing was a street fighting system, that evolved into a sport over time. Originally there were very few rules in boxing matches.
@@frankwoods6821 nah crime rates are way down since then
Bare knuckle boxing with Greco Roman clinching and throws would be awesome!!!
It’s called pankration. It’s a legit ancient sport that’s still practiced today.
I always daydreamed of a martial art that only combines folkstyle wrestling and boxing (asides the ability to fight off your back) with no kicks elbows or knees just every punch you can use in boxing and every technique allowed in collegiate wrestling I feel like that would be so fun and effective and a great base for anyone that wants to get into mma
Utlimate upper body martial art, sign me up!
16oz gloves by themselves changed the dynamic of punching big time. There are things you can do, and things you can't, that drastically alter striking.
I've watched Jack Dempsey vs Georges Carpentier, recently, because I'm a boxing nerd and proud to be french, and I was actually shocked by how long clinches went without being separated. It felt like it wasn't the sport of boxing I knew (well, it WASN'T the sport I knew) but my god was it fascinating.
Anyway, back to the video
It was a way different sport back then!
@@gi7685 Of course we do ! Why shouldn't we ? ^^
@@gi7685 I wonder, do you obnoxiously butt in if someone who isn't European says they're proud of their heritage as well?
so we are basically describing several of the ways that Tyson Fury wins fights
At the end you brought up how changes in track and field equipment are a big variable when it comes to faster world records over the recorded history of these sports. I also think that another important factor to consider is the total growth in the human population at large as well as the amount of people who have free time to participate in the sport. The fact is that we have a much larger amount of people in these sports than we did in the past which means that we have a higher chance of finding the genetic outliers when it comes to performance in these sports. Eliud Kipchoge is the world record marathon runner from Kenya. If he lived 100 years ago, it is unlikely that he would have been able to compete in any marathon let alone become a world champion with a full time career dedicated exclusively to becoming better.
Excellent point!
Wonderful point
In rock climbing we compare climbers with no rope and climbers with a rope. For me the ropeless guys are the best. My grandpa used to box in 6 ounce gloves and said there was less brain damage because opponents would not be able to take the pain of being hit by 6 ounce gloves,and not come out of the corner at the start of the round.He used to work in a coal mine for a full day ,then fight a pro fight the same evening. Next day he would be back down the mine. Different breed. You make a good point on soil depletion.
Soil depletion?
After Ultimate Self Defence Championship, will Ramsey join Geoff Lawton for Ultimate Permaculture and Food Forestry Championship?
Climbing - has all kinds of different rule sets. Free solo (no rope), bouldering (low height, no rope but spotter with landing pads), sport climbing (fall protection rope, bolted routes), trad climbing (rope, set your own fall protection), Speed climbing (rope, get up wall as fast as possible with this exact layout of holds). Different rules, different "best" climbers.
Alex Honnod who is probably the most impressive free solo climber (did El Cap) is many grades below the top climbers in the other disciplines. He just has the right mental wiring for the deadly activity of free solo. Alex himself will tell you that. He has done the route many times with fall protection ropes before. The others are pushing the limits of technical difficulty, while free solo is follow behind but INTENSELY mental.
Your grandfather sounds like a hard man.
The thing about boxers is their stamina. Wrestlers are always freaky strong, and boxers always have freaky stamina. Stamina in boxing is timeless. They went dozens of rounds back in the day, but even an eight round fight takes crazy stamina. Most people can't hit the heavy bag for a single minute, let alone fight for eight rounds.
The BKBF bare knuckle boxing fights seem relatively closer in spirit to boxing in the early 1900s. Active clinches allow you to pull down to hit someone, etc.
I wanna say the Meta of boxing has changed to a more fast paced one that uses more footwork and faster strikes because most pros had most of their fights in amateur boxing which are really short fights while the old school ones always fought 15 rounds
Hearing the stories of old school boxing makes me grateful for the tech we have today. It reminds me of how old school karate was way different.
A huge thing is new weight classes, Jack Dempsey is just a cruiserweight by today's standard vs modern super heavyweights.
One thing about the modern runners versus the older ones. There was a TED talk with a sports scientist that discussed this point in great detail. I forget his name but he did mention that Jessie Owens 100m time of 10.3 seconds adjusted to modern running conditions would be 9.8-9.9 seconds on a modern artificial track with spiked running shoes. It does make me wonder though. I did a quick search and if I'm correct, Bob Hayes was one of the last top pro athletics guys to run the 100m on a cinder track and had a personal best of 10 seconds. Remarkable to think when his sporting career wasn't exclusive to athletics. He was a footballer (hand egg thrower) too.
Going back the original question, I'd like to fast forward a couple of decades and ask instead of Jack Dempsey, how do you think Joe Louis would fare against modern heavyweights?
I can see him being cruiserweight champ, but if he was big enough he’d definitely take a few heavyweight titles these days.
@MicahNstuff Joe Louis kod 6ft6 270lb Primo Carnera. Joe Louis would be fine.
@@antoniomosley9410 fair enough
Back then, they were used to fighting until one boxer quits or drops. They were definitely tougher, however, in my opinion technique wise, the new age boxers are a bit more technically sound because techniques have been tried and tested over the course of time.
It's impossible to compare the technique of the old school and the modern fighter because as mention in the video, different RULE SETS !!!!!!! Because rule sets have a great impact on a figther`s technique.
@@user-dn2cx3vd4c you're absolutely right my friend. A fighter cannot add any illegal technique to his arsenal, mush less, waste time practicing it every training session. Have to twin within the set rules
@@frankjaxon2581 Forget illegal. More like physically impossible because modern boxing gloves changed the techniques of boxing.
@@Moses_VII ikr even if the referee don't break the clinch, Jack Johnson will still have a hard time clinching because of the gloves.
Yes without the gloves they can't do the flashy moves. Like bare Knuckle or MMA the punching is more scrappy and less entertaining like boxing. A hundred bare Knuckle punches to the head would destroy the hands.
Mr. Ramsey, i appreciate your content. You remind me of my high school wrestling coach, you've given me a lot of knowledge and motivation through your videos.
That’s some fascinating stuff about nutrition. Kind of embarrassed I didn’t consider that, it’s a bit obvious once you pointed it out. If you have any idea where that research came from, I’d love to read it. Great video and thanks.
Man nice voice you have
Well thank you!
Jack Johnson and Dempsey both cross trained in wrestling
Boxing was indeed a different craft.
Excellent points about knowing the rules. This was evident in Dempsey's long count with Tunney. New rule that he didn't abide by and it "may" have cost him. While I think you're also right about training, the basic boxing training I don't think changed much, but the work was a bit different. I use Marciano as an example of that. He would pick up big rocks over his head and throw them. In short, more field work than say someone in a gym throwing a medicine ball around. Which is reminiscent of the movie Rocky IV, where Rocky was out in the snow running, sawing logs, while the Russian was in a state of the art facility to train. Yeah, it's a movie but...still applies I think. I think men in the old days were simply harder than they are today as they had less to work with. Hard to say if they're better boxers than today though. Those guys were sluggers, even Joe Louis who was revered for his footwork, but until you got Ali, Louis footwork wasn't much better than Jim Braddock. Anyway...great video once again.
One major advantage today is modern medical knowledge and through this probably recovery. We can also give the boxers better medical treatment post career, not that it helps during their career, but still good stuff.
I learned a lot about boxing from this video, thank you sir! 👍
Boxing has also evolved. One example of that is technical skills and workout methods. Another example; In the old school boxing days, hard sparring would increase your resistance for taking hard punches. While that to a certain degree could apply to taking punches to the body, it is not so when it comes to taking hard punches to the head. So professional boxers today will not go hard in sparring except for the last few weeks before a fight. At least not if they appreciate longevity.
Great vid! Thanks!
What a great question! I like the way you broke it down Ramsey. I never really thought about it like that. I just finished watching the last episode of the self-defense championship. I enjoyed it very much. The only reason I knew about it was because I stumbled onto your channel while looking for a good video explaining the differences between one Fighting Championship and the UFC. Thank you again for that one it was great. I hope you will still be involved in the next season even if you are not one of the competitors.
Thanks for the history lesson. It was quite interesting!
Older Boxing seems sloppy compared to today (late 1800s to 1950s) BUT they were MUCH TOUGHER than todays boxers.
i tend to see that in athletes nowadays, even in NBA talent and athletic is better but players back then were tougher
Fantastic video!
Thanks for the answer! Made my day.
Damn, Coach Ramsey is right... Its not just the sport, the whole world has changed, not just competition rules but sports science and medical science. These are the people who worked better under those specific conditions, so there should be a discusison on whats mutual ground before going who's better....
This was a pretty insightful video
Modern fighters (some of them) might have a better understanding on concussions and therefore spar lighter, gaining a better chance of a long career and thus higher level skills. Or maybe Dempsey knew this instinctively and avoided damage?
Love you! !
In the 1800's throws were also allowed, so every takedown would also end the round. Grappling was a much bigger part of the sport than it is today. IIRC Daniel Mendoza get very hurt because his oponent grabbed him by the hair and held him up while punching him so he wouldnt fall down and end the round.
Super interesting that you brought nutrition and soil depletion into this! Protecting our planet and eating well! Super interesting stuff.
Good one ramsey
I love how you mentioned the nutritional value of food. If you look at great body builders of their time you can see around the end of the bronze era to the mid silver era a drastic shift in diet. George Hackenschmidt's diet was considered insane during his time, but it was a gallon of milk, eggs, and a lot of vegetables. You could try that all you'd like with modern milk, and eggs and you won't see that kind of success without going well over what George said he ate.
It’s like how Andy Cruz Isn’t guaranteed to become a champion just because he was one of the best amateur boxers because a lot of things are different so he probably won’t be able to get away with throwing such soft punches in longer rounds because his opponent has more time to knock him out
Great point. Amateur boxing has a unique rule set that sets it apart from professional boxing. An Olympic gold medal in boxing basically means the guy probably has good potential as a pro boxer, but it’s rare for people to simply assume it’s a guarantee straight track to a title. Take Ryoto Murata, for example. After he won the gold in the Olympics, he’s had a decent pro career, but he hasn’t proven to be an untouchable world beater by any stretch of the imagination.
I think old school boxers in BKFC would be a more fair comparison to be honest. Even then there are important differences obviously.
Ramsey, I was wondering if you have had any experience or knowledge of kenpo karate? Its a style I used to train in for a few years and some of it seems legit but my instructor also taught dutchstyle kickboxing and mma. The rest of the art however seems a bit odd and overly hypothetical and conceptual rather than realistic. I was wondering if you have had any experience or knowledge of the art i would love to hear your opinion. Thank you😁
Great points! Yes, the soil/food was much more nutritious back in the days. Therefore I try to go for certified organic whenever I can. On first sight it looks like it costs more, but the truth is you need less of it to feel full, because of its higher nutritional content. And also: less toxins (ie pesiticides etc)! And you can't really put a price tag on health anyway. "You either pay the farmer today, or you pay the doctor tomorrow" someone said brilliantly. So in the long run, it is way way cheaper.
Also, regarding the fact that running records get better and better over time: I agree that that could be because of the better equipment. But it also brings a story to mind, and that is the story of the 4-minute mile. Have you heard it? It's about how, for the longest time, nobody could run a mile in under 4 minutes. Experts deemed it impossible for a human being to do. But then suddenly Roger Bannister did it in 1954. And then once he had done it, a bunch of others followed suit. And now since then, apparently more than a 1600 people have done it.
The reason I bring up that story is because, perhaps one of the reasons why running times get better and better over time, is because of people's mindsets. Because they can only do what they imagine is possible to do, and what seems realistic to them, is probably to only be able to beat the given current record, by a little bit. And not too much. And therefore, records get a little bit better slowly over time. But that is just my unqualified opinion (or idea).
Good stuff man! I applaud you for mentioning soil depletion. I hope you don't get censored for conspiracy theories.
Let’s hope! A lot of people these days can’t tell the difference between long-standing documented science that people conveniently ignore and conspiracy theory! It’s happened before!
Sad but true.
Think the biggest difference in quality without massive changes was boxing 60s to 90s compared to 2000 onward
This is true for all sports. Judo today is very different from judo 100 years ago. Basketball today is a very different game to basketball 25 years ago, let alone 50 years ago, or 75 years ago -- because the rules are very different
One bit of training that has come on much more since the 80s is Mitt work. The first guy apparently to do it was Rocky Marciano. But many guys didn't do it at all until the 80s. I think there are some definite advantages to mitt work at least if the trainer knows how to use them correctly but Emanuel Steward always argued that it had the disadvantage of making guys not follow through on their punches and he was adamant that the guys in the late 90's early 2000's were not punching as hard as a fighters of the late 70s early 80s. He did use mitts to a certain extent but he much more emphasize heavy bag work.
Another thing people reference is weights when they argue modern boxers are better. I personally think some weight training can be good...but the reality is many elite fighters rightly or wrongly still don't use weights and instead use all body weight work (think of Floyd Mayweather). So you can't really chalk up all success to weights.
Finally I think one advantage modern fighters do often have is, let's face it, performance enhancing drugs...but that's not going to improve skill.
Thank you Ramsey, I am grateful for your wisdom. ❤
What is your opinion on Shotokan Karate?
On the soil depletion, I learned in ag in high school how to handle that. You cycle crop fields. Oh and fertilizers help as well.
Very informative video couch but next time please sprinkle a little bit old footage of those boxing matches inside, if they're still available today
Standing 8 Count was one of the dumbest rules of all-time.
In the mid-80s, switching to day-before weigh-ins has proven to be another mistake.
In the early '80s, the '70s, the '60s, the '50s, the 40s, etc, it was same day weigh-ins, and fighters fought in their weight class. No fighter would ever dehydrate 18 lbs and then attempt to fight like that a few hours later.
Cutting from 15 rds to 12 rds hurt the pressure fighters and guys that relied on endurance. Commissions will say it was based on scientific studies that showed more damage and concussions took place during the 13th, 14th, and 15th rd: bollocks, they cut the rds because tv stations could better fit a 12 rd fight better into their scheduling than a 15 rd fight.
Fun fact: football ("soccer") and futsal (indoor football) are totally different, as beach volleyball and indoor volleyball
I hope your knee is feeling better. Great video, by the way. I always think the same thing when people compare modern athletes to their predecessors in other sports. Every time you turn on a talking head and they talk how so and so is the GOAT, it's like, sure, but they don't account for rule changes, equipment changes. Hell, most talking heads aren't accounting for playing in an arena where everyone and I mean everyone was smoking like a chimney.
2 months after the USDC, my knee is in really bad shape. I do appreciate your concern! Jack Dempsey stood out from his peers specifically because he didn’t smoke in an era when tobacco was promoted as medicine. People back then thought he was weird because he thought not smoking gave him an edge over his opponents.
@@RamseyDewey It might be time to see a specialist, coach. I have knee problems myself. It's not fun.
It's interesting watching films of old games or fights and seeing the haze of smoke and imagining today's athletes trying to compete in that.
Great points about the importance of differences in the rules. That made me think of the style vs style matches that youtube is full of. Especially taekwondo vs kickboxing. These usually happen under kickboxing rules (I haven't seen a single one under tkd rules), and kickboxers usually win. And then people make a conclusion that tkd is worse, instead of being just different.
Entertaining and very knowledgeable videos. Absolutely love them. I was thinking about referee's in combat sport if they need any medical knowledge for the combatants? If so, do they need just basic first aid, or is it more in depth medical knowledge they need. I was pondering on this because I'm a graduate sports therapist and I'm starting to train in mma.
Many thanks for the videos and knowledge, hope all is well.
"How do you train with an egg and a slice of bread a day?"
That's the neat part: You don't. Unless his slice of bread is 500g, he is talking total bs.
What's your opinion on folkstyle/freestyle/greco-roman wrestling, and whether one of these styles might be a bit more applicable to a normal fight or not? I get that folkstyle focuses on control of the opponent, while the two styles included in the olympics and world competition focus more on movement and the impact/power of the techniques. What's your take on it?
I know you didn’t ask anyone else however I believe it’s pretty obvious American Folkstyle lends itself far better to MMA and self-defense due to the control aspect you mentioned. In international wrestling take downs and back points can be awarded without absolute control which takes it further away from fighting(martial) and more artistic. In UFC’s history no champion comes strictly from a freestyle or Greco background. Nearly all are former college wrestlers or at least state placers in high school. Even the Dagestani elites practiced a more folk-style type of wrestling in their grappling experience. Yoel Romero would be the closest yet even he struggled against college wrestlers until he adapted his training to a more folk style type. In the US he had high level college wrestlers to train w/ and being a powerful athletic freak helped him to improve his MMA wrestling quickly. I also feel Greco alone is slightly better than freestyle alone for fighting. The advantage international wrestling can have is the compatible level on the world stage: the elite on the planet w/ the mental edge that it takes to be among the best on earth.
I was a young kid when the standing 8 started. One boxer died due to heavy battering so this was implemented. I think it was in the early 80s and I know it got removed from the rules set on 1998
Rules is a one thing the whole fighting technique in boxing evolved and today there is more technical fighters
7:27 this is a common and central rule in amateur boxing
Dude that bit about the soil is insane!
Isn’t it though? Man, the most recent research on soil depletion is frightening.
@@RamseyDewey it really is, I went and looked it up after the video.
It’s one of those things that seems like it should be urgent, “hey, proper soil could take millennia to reform, so slow down!”
I would be super curious to see correlational studies between soil depletion & testosterone decline in men because I’ve heard ppl attribute that to diet.
One thing that i think is hurting boxing today is it's almost exclusively PPV. Back in the old day boxers were well integrated into our everyday lives. We all knew who they were and even their stories. Some became villains and others hero's, peoples champs. We gathered around the tv to watch the fights. Now I don't even know but a handful of boxers and if I do its just because I read their name in a headline . Never saw them box. Taking away things like the Friday Night Fights series was the final straw. I see a few boxing matches on cable now, but I rarely watch because I'm not emotionally invested like I was with Ali , or Foreman, Sugar Ray , Tyson.
Interesting that you mention nutritional value of food being less nutritious due to soil depletion. Ian T. Taylor, in a phone conversation, also said the same thing. To make up for that lack of nutrition in food, I think he said taking nutritional supplements.
On Nutrition -
Babe Ruth was a few months older than Jack (both born 1895), and he was on more what we would think of as an athlete's diet, ~6000 calories. Breakfast: Steak, potatoes, 6 eggs, etc. He did put on weight over his career, but he was still putting up all-star quality seasons at 39 that most players never get to.
Food producers milk the rules too!
What kind of bread you're getting. Wonder bread vs 100% whole wheat bread from a bakery (or homemade) are different substances. Process down to white flour and toss some of the bran back in with a little artificial coloring and sell the biproduct to someone else. How big is the loaf and slice? I find bakery bread both bigger and I slice it thicker.
We're also getting fruits and vegetables picked before they're ripe to support travel distances and shelf life. Find a fresh picked ripe tomato, and then get a super market tomato. You can taste the difference. Depending what day you get to the supermarket, you can see the fully green bananas. Everything about super market food is selected for shelf life, speed to maturity, and appearance as ripe. Taste and nutrition are not important factors. Even beef - grain fed vs grass fed are visually different. The grain fed will be bigger and fattier.
Check out "The Arc of Boxing The rise and decline of the sweet science" by Mike Silver. He makes a compelling argument that back in the 40, 50, and 60s boxers were superior. His reasoning: practice. Boxing and baseball were the 2 most popular American sports at that time. Every young boy wanted to hit like their favorite athletes. Boxing gyms were around every corner. Pro boxers were fighting dozens of times in sometimes a single month against top level competition. Imagine if today's athletes went into baseball and boxing, generally, instead of Basketball and football. We had phenomenal talent from that time and incredible coaches. Everybody was sparring top level guys, getting more practice against each other. He makes other compelling arguments as well. Definitely worth a read!
Hey Ramsey thank you for your content. I’m no superstar athlete. I’m a 54 year old former college wrestler from Cleveland Ohio that dabbled in karate, boxing and MMA. I so far have yet to disagree w/ anything you’ve put forth. Your insight is purely realistic and honest. Thank you for giving us a dose of reality and keeping it interesting.
I would like to know what you think of self defense styles like the fairbairn method or target focus training.
on point as always. Been practicing the power line lately, fascinating stuff. I hate this hubris we have about the past, we think we are o' so much smarter than they were, but we really are not. More variety doesn't mean quality.
Case in point, I objectively think the overly carved wood/stone work of south east Asia too be unattractive , compared to the seemingly simple designs of the Norman cathedrals. Complicated doesn't mean quality , simple means to boil it down to the very core of the design. In stead of X=738490, Its far superior to have X=1.
I think the old school boxer had deep wisdom, and I intend to learn all I can from them. Its a treasure trove ! Also , been enjoying your Audio book! Its great!
Great Video Ramsey. Now I have a question. A school opened near me recently. The instructor says he does Panantukan and FCS Kali. From what I read Panantukan basically created the boxing we know today (if what I read is wrong please correct me). So would it be a good school to go to (both to learn how to fight as a combat sports athlete and for self defence) since he is basically teaching boxing combined with weapon fighting?
There are many differences back then. One is the 15 rounds vs 12 rounds. The number of fights is very different. Back then boxers fought very frequently amassing 100+ fights in just a few years. Which aged them quite quickly compared to today but it also made toughness much more important as a longevity factor. There is more video footage and pre fight analysis today, its easier to expect opponent's movements and train for that. It would not be fair to put an old time boxer where they come in with little knowledge of the opponent but fighter of today had plenty of footage of his opponent to analyze.
Interesting topic.. to the issue of boxing specifically, weigh training, as in many sports is in play.. When I played basketball in the 80’s coaches didn’t want you lifting weights.. now it’s basically essential.
I saw a TED talk on whether sprinters of today like Usain Bolt are faster than those in Jesse Owen’s time… he then went on to explain essentially no, giving credit to track construction, shoes, and starting blocks that did not exist in Jesse Owen’s time.. tracks today are like sponges compared to the clay tracks of old…
He also talked about tennis and how the graphite racquets used today are superior to the wooden racquets of old…
Technology may have advanced our performance, but we’re still human at the end of the day
You mentioned that sports records are always being broken, then attributed this to many training factors (shoes, the make-up of the ground, etc.). But if performance is like a bell curve that does *not* shift higher with the decades, there is always a probability that an established record will be broken in the current year. The higher that the record is pushed, of course, the less likely it will be broken, so the rate of record breaking should slow down through the years. I don't track this, so I don't know if that is happening.
Boxer of old was more like mma fighter with restricted rules. They had much broader of skillset.
Some lunatics said video on my page showing the average 70s fighter was way more advanced and fluid than the whole louis era was opinion,how is video evidence opinion?
I think an important distinction to make is are we comparing the best of the times or the average practitioner? Because I think there are definitely athletes who have the skills to break free from the limitations of their time. But I feel like the average athlete has a huge leg up, because of all the technical knowledge we gained, in both sports science, as well of all the innovations in technique that has happened through the years.
Ramsey, can you please compare sanda and Muay Thai? I feel like Muay Thai would benefit from throws like sanda have, what so you think?
I have thought of it as the same art with different context (different rules) resulting in the prevalence of different systems... 🤔
Another important aspect you didn't mention was the older standards for recruiting professional athletes. It was once held that the perfect "athletic body" for any and all sports and competitions was what we could be considered the Average Joe. Not too tall, not too short. not lanky, not bulky. Just overall balanced. Recruiters weren't specializing their efforts on people with specific attributes for a while. Eventually we realized tall and skinny was best for basketball, and built like a fridge was great for football. The same was for boxing. We started realizing how useful reach advantage was for punching, and it wouldn't surprise me if, as the boxing stance changed, we started seeing more skilled boxers who were shorter and faster.
The evolution of sports is beautiful :3
Hey Coach, I watched a video about shaolin practitioners conditioning the bones of their head to withstand hits by gently (then more forcefully) bonking it against a wall over the course of years. Is this insane, or would it actually be helpful for fighters?
Hey Ramsey, if you are interested in the soil depletion argument I suggest you check out Dr. Zach Bush
Great video great view sounds great audio. Boxing 🥊. 👍. Live stream CZcams channel.
Hi Ramsey! I love that shoulder lock that you show 10seconds into the video. I use it when I roll but I find that more often than not I am unsuccessful with it and I don't have the same control as I would with most other submissions. When I have been successful I've accidentally hurt my training partners or made them panic because it comes on very fast from an angle they aren't expecting. Normally I prefer to view submission techniques as a series of positions of control that ends in a submission. Do you have a technique video for that submission that will help me gain more control?
I’m guessing you’re not pinning the far side shoulder first. If you do that, there’s no reason to do it quickly or injure your training partners. You can pin the far side shoulder by either looping your far side arm around the neck, or digging your far side elbow into the far side armpit, or, if you are grappling in a gi, hold the far side collar or lapel. czcams.com/video/FRwSL4jBKUg/video.html
@@RamseyDewey Thank you so much for the link and the advice. You're exactly right I dont control the far shoulder
14:15 oh shid oh no
Soil depletion is easily remedied through regenerative farming. For more information look up white oak pastures.
So easy, right? Which is why everyone is doing it… right?
@@RamseyDewey it’s an issue of beliefs and politics.
@@RamseyDewey Also have you looked into regenerative farming? White oak pastures not only do it they teach about it. There are, of course, many other information resources.
@@bloodoftheunicorns2621 It's an issue of making as much money as possible as quickly as possible. A fallow field doesn't generate immediate wealth, government subsidies to grow crops that get dumped do.
Also a slice of bacon and click of bread for Jack Dempsey was way bigger than a slice of bacon and a slice of bread today. Still one egg one slab of bacon and one slice of dense whole wheat bread is insanely less food that way we eat today.
Bread back then was not aerated like it is today. My mom used to make whole wheat bread,, her bread was dense, and filling and a slice was nearly an inch thick because any things and it would crumble. We used to get bacon from a farm, and it was thicker slabs about 5 times thicker than the thick cuts you get at the store today. We used to get eggs from that same farm, and yes, they were pretty much the same as eggs today in size, but my mom would scramblevthem with freaking Cream from that farm not whole milk, cream. Notbhalf and half, I'm talking cream, 100% full cream, add salt and shake to make butter cream! That breakfast, was heavy in calories, and we only got it once a week because of the effort involved.
In about a year, I plan to move into a better house, and I want to try bringing that part of my life back.
Speaking of old martial arts, which one do you think is quite underrated ? (when i say old, i talk about Batitusu, pancrace, old form of savate and so on)
I wonder if the filming ability of modern people has even more effect when studying your opponent. A boxer in the early 1900s had to be a quick study, whereas a modern athlete can tailor their strategy to their specific opponent.
Do you have any links to the sources of this soil research?
Your comment about shoes had me thinking of gloves. Don't the thicker boxing gloves cover for sloppier punches? I think the new boxers would break their hands in the first few rounds of an old-school boxing match.
A lot of what we call food today isn't food... LOL
Im pretty sure that 67" reach Marciano would have no chance against super long heavies like Fury or Lennox.
The talent pool nowdays is much bigger, back then anyone the size of an ufc welterweight would be a hw in boxing.
Some lunatics said video on my page showing the average 70s fighter was way more advanced and fluid than the whole louis era was opinion,how is video evidence opinion?
This is why I don't like asking "why don't we see xx move/ xx style in MMA?" or questions like that.
Even the approach to fighting within a single tradition (i.e. boxing) has changed significantly with the rules.
It doesn't mean the "old" ways of boxing were "ineffective" or "impractical".
It's just that fighters need to adapt to the new rules.
Even more so if we're talking about people from one tradition (e.g. a certain TCMA lineage) going into another (MMA).
They're going into what's explicitly considered a different sport! Of course the way they fight will look different (assuming they do follow the rules)!
e.g. In traditional Chinese martial arts duels, you fight on a stage/area with no surrounding barrier, and you can win by throwing your opponent off that stage/area. Certain styles, like Taiji, tend to train towards that outcome.
When fighting in a ring, or especially a cage, that way of ending a fight has been shut off (literally).
So naturally, say, a Taiji practitioner would have to rethink how he/she deals with the opponent,
and the result would not "look like" (the popular conception of) Taiji.
To ask "why doesn't he use 'Taiji moves' in the ring?" is to misunderstand how all this works.
You'll see a big difference that happened from the late 50s to 60s with guys using their hands to deflect punches much less.
It has to do with the thumb of the gloves being attached to the body of the fist. The reason they did that was to minimize intentional and unintentional thumbing in the eye. But it also changed the defense game and made controlled and directional perry's less a part of the game.
In the 90s a lot of amateur shows were using gloves with no thumbs detached....
There are a lot of other factors that Ramsey did not mention. Some of which are less palatable than others.
Jack Dempsey was an all around violent man. He had a lot of fights outside the ring. A very large number. And that was completely accepted at the time. Fighting in rail yards for food. That kind of thing. Modern boxers don't have anywhere near as much exposure to fighting.
Sonny Liston also led a violent life. Including fighting policemen. Again, it's not the lifestyle that current boxers have the same degree of exposure to.
You have the ever present influence of organised crime. It's never been a completely straight game. And it sure wasn't a straight game in Liston's day.
And from say the 1950s/60s onwards you have steroids. Who was/is on them? Who was/is on other substances to improve their performance?
You also have a numbers thing. How many young boys see boxing as their route out of poverty now? How many see MMA as the route? How many see dealing drugs on the street corner as the golden ticket? The more boys and young men going through the boxing gyms the more chances of those best physically and mentally suited emerging and getting to the top.
And we know the numbers going into boxing are not expanding in line with population growth.
We also know the medical types have been doing their best to keep the numbers in the sport as low as they can, and if they had their way they would get it banned entirely.
So many variables, so many reasons not to be trying to compare apples and oranges.
I think Ali's era still had wrestling, he hand fighting with George Foreman in thier match.
I think a major difference is one is more conductive to use if you are forced into a street fight or do a MMA fight. And the other is specialized for a safer environment.
Older boxing or pugilism has more versatile and adaptability. But I think modern boxing has more refinement in punching mechanics and strategy.
I think though in fight matchups the skill gap is different for boxing. I think current judokas if also taught submissions could fight older judokas very or moderated easily. But I think with boxing it could go potentially either way.
I think another way of looking at it is old pugilism, GJJ, and older judo was born in a different time period so its later permutations was modified to be more widely assemble for average people.
And MMA in a way is indirectly recreating the stuff they did but through different techniques and rules.
I would add in general for all sports that the talent pool is greater do to less poverty in general, and availability of media to even know a sport exists. 100 years ago a middle schooler was a rare thing you'd already be done with school and maybe saw a baseball game or 2 in your local town before you had to focus to full time farm work. Now you can start something like MMA or gymnastics at 12 and practice that until you're an adult. In 1920 you might not even know gymnastics existed and maybe saw some wresting once at a circus or something.
Important hing to note: boxers back then were not hitting pads, so this may or may not be a factor in how good they were
The weight classes are different nowadays too. Many forget that although Jack Dempsey was a heavyweight he was only 85kgs and 6'1. Those numbers wpuldn't even put him at Cruiserweight. And with all the clinching, a 6'9 Tyson Fury would just lean on him and basically squash him. Even Joe Louis who considered decently tall for his time was 5'10. The closest thing to a modern heavyweight back then would be Primo Carnera who's 6'5 at 120kgs, which is like the average height for a heavyweight now and he was considered a behemoth. The size difference would be too great, it would like fighting someone at light heavyweight. I feel boxing has been optimized now where instead of the large array skills that were displayed by older boxers, now there are certain skills that just encompass a realm of boxing so there is less time needed to "perfect" the art. There is simply less to learn now
Joe Louis was almost 6’2”…not sure where you’re getting 5’10”…
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Louis
That’s not how nutrients work. Even if there was way more nutrients in wheat and fruits and vegetables and eggs that wouldn’t make their calorie content higher. It’s not surprising that people back then were smaller.
Maybe you already answered this before coach, but who is your favorite MMA fighter? Or better yet who are your top 3 all time?
I'd love to see a Bareknuckle League with a ruleset that allowed for chancery/clinch fighting and some grappling. Unfortunately, it would probably die out quickly due to the lack of wild punching, the stalling and lack of consistent, crazy knockouts. Also I think most Boxing Commissions require wraps at the least, which wouldn't be true bareknuckle. :(
Hey HEMA guys, where's the love for Old English Boxing at??? ;P
What are your thoughts on BKFC? It's bareknuckle, allows for clinch fighting, and is actually becoming pretty popular. Should be able to find a decent bit of it on CZcams. I love it in ways I haven't loved boxing since the 90's. Honestly I prefer it to MMA as I feel MMA's ruleset has just led to it being no Gi BJJ 2/3 of the time.
its amazing how you can make good insightful content like this, and then go to the "20 ways i know you dont know how to fight" style click-bait/rage-bait type thing