@@globaltoleranceproject The difference is, Nietzsche thought that one becomes the other naturally. He did not understand that becoming the fallen angel comes from life not turning out as that person tried to live, in spite of often extreme effort, and also from great suffering, which in turn makes that person choose to become like that, or not. Only in fantasy does the good and the bad exist as full potentials, using the Rising Ape and Fallen Angel examples here. Only in fantasy, and fantasy alone, do they coexist, and can safely be explored and understood. Fantasy was in many ways Nietzsche's blind spot, and it is not just him; many professionals trying to understand human nature have that same issue, and always will.
"You need to believe things that aren't true, how else they can become" I love that line so much, it strips away a tiny bit of nihilism and replaces it with hope. If you believe in a world that ultimately doesn't care about your existence it's easy to struggle with finding purpose in your life, but one way to over come this is realizing that you can give meaning to you're own life and the world around. Things like justice, duty, love and hope may no be real in our world. But we can make them real and strive to create them in our lives.
"but one way to over come this is realizing that you can give meaning to you're own life and the world around." Umm that's not how I interpret it at all, and I don't think that's what's meant by it. Any meaning that you give to your own life or the world around you, if it's purely subjective and materialistic, is still nihilistic.
I dont think you got that right man. Though the last sentence, the sentece you quote, is kind of missleading and not part of the original phrases. This little play is more an argument for actual belief and against nihilism. Believing in things, we can not know for sure, is just human nature. We have a natural proclivity to believe, though this might be evolved by evolutionary pressure. But still, Humans need to belief in things to be, what we call "human(e)". Its just something what humans do. Death (or the Author) means that almost everybody believes in something, which cannot be proven by empirical evidence, even if they tend to not see it that way .There is no empirical evidence of something as justice etc to be found in the universe "And yet you try as if there is some ideal order in the world, as if there is some rightness in the Universe, by which it may be jugded." With that he kind of calls out to the (atheist or) rational types, which still hold justice etc. as an ideal, by pointing out that ideals like mercy and jusice, are also far fetched things you have to beliefe in. Things as far fetched as a belief in fairytales, christmas...or God.
Only in the Discworld can death, the ultimate absolute of an uncaring universe, be caring being or justice and mercy, who looks down upon a young girl, frozen to death in the snow and think "This isn't fair" and once, just once in all of creation, breaks the rules and gives her back her life and a future, just to bring a small measure of justice to this cold bleak world
He couldn't have, if he hadn't been filling in for the Hogfather. Albert even pointed it out that he's not allowed to do that. And Death knows he's not allowed to do it, even if he wants to, no matter how badly he wants to. He couldn't even do it for his own daughter and her husband when their lives were cut short by a carriage wreck. He had to reap them, too, and then had an emotional breakdown and desperately scoured the Disc to learn how to forget. There was a whole book, Mort, about what catastrophes happen if The Duty is ignored or unfulfilled even on a single life. But the Hogfather can. The Hogfather gives presents. And what better present is there than a future? Death used a technicality to get around one of his own rules because he cared and saw an opportunity. He wasn't there as Death, he was there as the Hogfather. And the Hogfather gives presents, and the present he gave her was more time, just as the lifetime ran out, so he could get her still alive self to a warm place and good food.
@@midnightflare9879 Not really. Death's lifetimer is empty. He will never die. When Atuin dies, as the last living thing under the Disc, and there is nothing left, Death will be reabsorbed into Azrael, the Death of Universes, of whom he and all other Deaths are just a fragment, in the same way that Death of Rats is a fragment of Death that took on its own separate existance. Death's full name is Death of The Discworld. What happened in Reaper Man was that the Auditors convinced Azrael to 'fire' Death, making him mortal. During which time he had a lifetimer. A new fragment of Azrael then congealed to replace him, because there can never be a vacancy on The Duty for long. However... AZRAEL has a lifetimer, in the form of the Celestial Clock, with it's Eon Hand and Millenium Hand, and it's big hand goes around only once. When the big hand finishes it's single circuit, Azrael will perform the Final Duty, and will reap the UNIVERSE. Thereafter, with no life left to die, Azrael will cease to exist at the same time, and die with it, and then there will be nothing.
lets just hope the real reaper is just as awesome as this one. talking to him would be one of the best experiences in my li......one of my best experiences.
Fun fact: Terry Pratchet would occasionally get letters from terminally ill children about how his character Death comforted them and how they hoped he would be like how Terry wrote him. After reading these Pratchett would often stare at the wall.
+jstin8 I think that's part of what inspired him to champion for palliative care and assisted death. Why let people suffer if death (both the process and the anthropomorphic personification) will give them peace?
It was probably the most meaningful compliment his writing could have gotten; "you gave hope to the hopeless, and comfort to the comfortless". I'm kind of tearing up at the mental image myself.
No. Be the change you want to see in the world. Don't just dream of it and take the world as it is with an open mouth, because one must always kiss one's killer, now ain't that so? I think, therefore I am; So what exactly are you gonna choose to be? Because every time we choose to be agents of order, justice, compassion, equity, they go from fantasy to a very tangible reality, otherwise "how else can they become?" It's not faking it til you make it; It's creating it so WE can make it.
I think it’s more apt to say that reality is what you make of it. Like saying “you need to believe in things that aren’t true how else can them become”. Meaning that all this stuff he says is fantasy is real because we make it so. Stuff matters because we make it so.
@@Darkloid21 exactly. country borders are only a thing because we believe they are. You can only go buy food with colored paper because we believe the paper is worth something
Civilization, justice, mercy and love are concepts which gives us our idealized world, but the problem these days is that everyone has a different idea of what all of it means, and for some it means nothing at all. Civility and society are made up concepts we all subconsciously agree to follow with the expectation we can have a peaceful, productive and fulfilling existence. But since we live in an ever degrading point in history where many just see modern life as a return to the rule of “might makes right”, you’ve got millions of people who act on instinct rather than principle. To many they just see society as a mass of animals to be manipulated, abused and stolen from without any sense of remorse. People believe things like mercy, sympathy and love are made up or childish to believe in, what’s worse is that many are so alienated through political manipulation or social engineering they believe it’s morally acceptable to wish death upon others who they don’t like for even arbitrary reasons. Mankind is losing its sense of imagination for what is best for it, we are a nation but we’re not a community.
In a way, but try to think of it a little more literally. The love you feel for you mom or family is just a chemical reaction that illicits a desired reaction from nerves in the brain, That dopamine and serotonin cocktail isn't chemically different than a drug high. its not love until you FEEL and BELIEVE it is love and so it becomes. IDK how else to describe it than like literal metaphors, something thats literal and factual but metaphorical and "feelings based" as well. Honestly its closer to a teaching in the bible or deep philosophy, purpose and values and things like that don't have physical bodies or matter you can store or touch but they are real because we REALIZE them and make them.
Every time I listen to the death speech I smile. We have human rights because someone imagined a society no longer based on the law of the strongest. We read a book so that someone imagined that education could be for everyone. We sit where we prefer on a bus because someone imagined they could. We progress even if imperfectly because someone transforms into reality what seemed only a short time before fantasy. Thanks Sir Terry Pratchett
How is any of that progress? Sounds entirely subjective. Either there is real meaning and purpose, or it's just peoples subjective and arbitrary imaginations.
@@tayzk5929 Certainly not all progress is perfect or for everyone. Often they are conquered and recaptured at great cost. Or get lost in the ruthless logic of the world. But in my perhaps foolish opinion the beginning of the end is when we stop imagining that something better is possible.
@@vimes3303 The point is wether "something better" is just subjective imagination, some people's good change other people would consider bad. Or wether there is a true Goodness that has a more fundamental reality than just peoples imaginations and subjective opinions.
@@tayzk5929 Doesn't matter. That was the whole point of Death’s speech. It's how they want the world to be and so, they act as though it is so that it becomes more like that world.
@@Lobsterwithinternet If you're interpreting the speech simply as people want the world to be a certain way, so they act that way, that leaves the speech pretty banal and meaningless. That would be my only point.
"The sun would not have risen, a mere ball of flaming gas would have illuminated the world" is the rising ape without the falling angel. He was on point from the beginning.
To me I am amazed reading pratchett, hes got a diffrent way of looking at things, makes you both laugh , cry, and think. To me he is the best athur of anything really, I cant get enough
There is objective reality and there is objective MORALITY. We do not have to believe in any lies to be humans, we need lies to have excuse to kill each others thinking we're doing the right thing. Peace.
@Sompompir Plemeniti You have completely missed the point. Perhaps lies lead to us killing each other, but lies also lead us to such concepts as human rights, democracy, equality before the law and yes, justice, honour, mercy, duty. Also, are you so naive to believe that you understand objective reality?
Justice, mercy, honor, duty are all "lies" that keep society together. Society is the greatest weapon humanity has against natural selection. In the end, that's what good and evil are. Evil acts such as theft and murder are things that disrupt society and hurt everyone. Good acts are those that breed trust so society can continue to function.
@@Briselance Wow, it's been 13 years since I left this comment, haha. Fundimentally Justice and Beauty are human concepts and, as such are arbitary and ever changing, they also only exist within the human mind, they are not components of the universe. As Death says, grind reality "down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest seive" and you won't find any such qualities. But, that doesn't matter, because if we believe it we can make it true. Justice may not exist, but we can pretend that it does and try to make it real.
@@Briselance Not to Pratchett, like all atheists. They deny true justice, beauty etc but they still arbitrarily and subjectively still can't help but talk about it and affirm it's existence when they themselves feel like it. They reject God and erroneously put themselves in God's place to determine what is right, wrong, true or beautiful.
@@Briselance Yes, they are what you perceive, a perception is a interpretation of the world you make, word are not reality, they are a interprétation poeple share to try understand the same stuff.
@@orctrihar Words are vessels used to describe reality. They are what you perceive, you say. Justice is but an interpretation, then. A man wrongly accused of a crime would have a keen perception of justice. Telling him that justice is but a lie would be being in the wrong. If you can feel the consequences on injustice, then you can know what justice is. And by then, you know it is most assuredly not a lie.
Right there! Tucked into this wonderful, funny, fairy tale story is one of the most profound ideas ever realized. The universe does not care. It is just physics and chemistry. Justice, honor, compassion, love are all made up by humans. But by believing in them we make them real!
There are terminally ill patients who have written to prachett saying that they hope Death turns out to be just as he described him ... apparently these letters cause him to go and stare at a blank wall for a few hours
Pratchett's take on Death resonates with a line from a somewhat-obscure comic series called 'Elfquest'. "The wolf fights to stay alive, but Death, when it comes, is neither friend nor enemy. It *is*."
I use this scene to teach my students philosophy. "Take the universe and ground it to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then SHOW ME one atom of Justice, one molecule of Mercy." They're all fantasies, all fiction, but it does not make them unimportant or untrue. I am an atheist, I do not subscribe to any religion, but this line is my holy text.
It could also be the other way around: the rising Ape strives for enlightenment, but is still a prisoner of it's own animalistic instincts, while the fallen Angel is no longer as pure as it once was, but still remembers it's Virtuous past. It could even be both ways at once.
i love the way belief is portrayed here: in too many works of fiction, they focus on religion as belief. Ptrachet shows that things like justice, honor, and mercy can be believed in just as strongly, even if their is no real proof they exist.
This is the sort of thing that truly separates man from animals. We govern ourselves and our behavior in accordance to concepts just as much as we do environmental challenges. I don’t think animals can show justice, or even revenge. They see something that hurts them, and they either avoid it or kill it to eliminate future danger. Revenge and justice I believe is born out of a human demand for empathy in those around us, and it is often a lack of empathy that causes the harm that inspired a call to justice or revenge in the first place.
Not religion (belief in a god), but belief, in general, such as in other people. Where did the concept of chivalry come up but some noble who said his own personal opinion and made others believe him?
M Actually, many religions do require the aforementioned, it’s just Hollywood and anti-religious extremist like to misinform that all religion is corrupt. Even then, that’s not the point. The point is that the mere and truest form of justice, mercy, duty etc cannot be defined by one human, nor understood, because the truest form is nonexistent, yet we try and believe that there is such a true form because we want to. We all have our own view of what justice and mercy is, just like how different religions see the world in their own way so no true definition exists, even if we take science into consideration, it’s neither the same nor does science know everything about humanity.
There's an amusing short story that I heard of, where that's literal. After you die, you sit around in a giant boring waiting room (Purgatory) until the last person who knows of you dies. *Then* you can move on. Some people are very very impatient to be forgotten :-p
You know, that line about believing the lies is both inspiring and chilling, because that can be turned right around into writing monsters into heroes.
Precisely. Belief, faith, religion, whatever term you want to use... it's a tool. And just like any other tool, it's neither good, nor evil. It *is*. And it's the people using it that use it for good or evil. Belief can make heroes into monsters, or monsters into heroes. We make our own devils, and angels, out of what we already have inside us. That's the glory and the terror, in one package.
Calling mercy and justice lies? That is a lie in itself. Just because there is no physical form to justice doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that we can't see its consequences.
@@Briselance He literally *explicitly* countered your argument in the clip you JUST watched... "...show me ONE atom of justice. ONE molecule of mercy..." You HAVE to believe in them IN ORDER to *CREATE* them. If you don't put in the work to bring about justice or mercy, then they *will not exist.* This is categorically factual. It is non-negotiable. You have missed the entire point of the dialogue. A rock will still exist whether you believe in it or not. "Justice" and "mercy" are abstract *concepts,* not real, tangible, physical things that have an inherent presence of their own. Justice and mercy *NEED* someone to *believe* that they can exist in order for them TO exist. The are *ENTIRELY* dependant on a lifeform's cognitive belief in them in order to have *ANY* presence in the universe. They are lies because we keep telling ourselves that they are *intrinsic* properties of existence, even though they *only* exist because *we* believe they exist. If the whole universe was nothing but rocks, ice, and stars, and the most rudimentary Laws of Physics required to sustain those things, then there would be no "justice" or "mercy" in existence. *Gravity* is real. It is not a lie that we tell ourselves. It has very clear properties despite literally being an invisible force enacting itself upon *EVERYTHING* around us. You take away all life in the universe, and yet gravity keeps doing what it was doing like nothing changed. See the difference?
This is perhaps the best argument for faith/belief I have ever heard. It is a logical fallacy when you get down to it (Ad hoc ergo propter hoc) but a lot of our best qualities, when absolutely reduced, are fallacious. I'd rather live in a fallacious world that is filled with justice and mercy than a wholly coldly logical one... even if that world is a bit silly from time to time (keeps us on our toes). When faith makes a person more generous, compassionate and loving I will never seek to insult it or take it away. When faith causes suffering, then I will mock it and deride it for the B.S. that it shows itself to be. Mathew 7:18 and Dhammapada 1:1-2 for the textually minded, seem to agree with this sentiment
Niklas Pedersen Actually I'm an agnostic atheist who appreciates the beauty and poetry in deeply spiritual texts. Within them I think there are hidden bits of wisdom that smart people have managed to sneak in over the years. I'll read Rumi next to the Buddha and the day after that I'll enjoy a sample of the Songs of Solomon. I don't hate faith and I see the beauty in what it can do for people... I love the argument in this movie and think it is one of the few that "works" for me on an emotional level, even if I don't agree or feel the same way.
I couldn't agree more. I never saw a reason for faith before, but after watching this video, I think I can make room for some. I'll have to read this book.
My family members don't want to watch it because of the skeleton ... they think it's a horror movie :( ... when in fact it's an awesome movie about the nature of belief.
I watched this before and felt compelled to say this. Mostly for those who may be bothered by others who believe in religion. Some people believe not only because they think it's right or true. It's because it gives them hope. It makes going to the afterlife easy I suppose. It brings a kind of comfort and that we might not be alone. In our times or hardship when you have no one. The idea of a God being by your side can be very helpful. It can get you through the hardest times. It did for some of my family members at least. When you have no one to go to you can go to God. I'm not the most religious person anymore. However even I needed hope before and yes I did find it in God. Was it false hope? Perhaps but I'm still alive today and I made it. I'm not here to debate this I just wanted to say this and leave it be.
Julie.S Lovely and i agree with all that you say. though to be a pessimistic realist, most atheist bothered by religion is what is done in the name of it and what it excuses. similar to how people object to most "alternate medicine"
eythor19 Yeah I know what you mean. It's actually entertaining sometimes how one goes off on a tangent about religion and it leads to nothing. Most Atheists I know don't even seem to care and just go on their way.
Julie.S Being an atheist is a passive thing after all. They don't think about shit like the afterlife or anything. Just when shit is done in the name of religion such as denial of evolution and science. But there are assholes everywhere and those who want to hammer in the anti-religious sentiment. Hell, I was like that for a time.
eythor19 I agree with you. However being religious does not equal the denial of evolution or science in every case. I'm an example of that. There is logic some just choose not to use it. Many Christians I have talked to over the years have given me a 50/50 chance view of it. Some deny evolution and some believe. My family taught me that evolution is real and that there can be a balance. Some people are more accepting and others aren't. I believe problems happen when one party tries to force their view on the other.
The best explanation of why religion exists, and one of the most profound speeches in literature, Terry Pratchett said more in a sentence than most authors do in a whole book.
I’m a atheist so my perspective on why theistic religion exist is that some people need to believe there is a higher power out of Despair and life after death to feel closure for me I am content believe in no life after death I am not disturbed by that but some people are and so they believe because their brain wants them to
Thank you for posting this. I was trying to explain this scene to my girlfriend and I just wasn't doing it justice. Terry Pratchett is freaking brilliant!
Listening to this line legit made me cry again. Ian's voice is so perfect as Death in getting across on the message of of faith and justice. I remember mulling over the line for weeks when I first heard it and went though so many emotions from pity and apathy to acceptance and release. Nothing spiritual is physically real, but our beliefs is what makes it real. Assuming there's a karma that does the work for you isn't the same as helping another person and bringing justice to broken systems. One cannot lose hope on progress, otherwise it will disappear if it's not nurtured and cared for.
"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind; it doesn't take you anywhere, but it tones up muscles that might." -- Terry Pratchett Unfortunately Mr. Pratchett has Alzheimer's. I've watched two brilliant and funny people in my life drizzle away bit by bit to it. I can't stand to watch it happen to him. Another big lie is that Death is the ultimate scary end. No. There are things much worse than death.
What I took away from this is that justice, mercy etc... don't exist, but the fact that we believe in them make them as real as the earth beneath our feet.
I don't know if this line was in the book, but it fits so well. Pratchett kept forgetting that he was writing about a children's fantasy world, and not the real world. Which is what made it awesome.
It was. They shortened the dialogue scene a bit for it is more deep and longer in the book but despite that the scene is still good in context of the film.
The first time I watched this, I thought he was being nihilistic, which was why I tried to find something wrong with his reasoning. I've since learned bits and pieces of his history, and he has performed act of mercy, compassion, he has shown a sense of justice, he's been courteous to someone who'd just been murdered to the point of apologizing when he got distracted, and he cared enough about her to make her a holiday card. Death believed in and valued mercy, compassion and justice, but he also understood how fragile they are, that they can only exist if we believe in them.
Justice and mercy are individual experiences (as any fantasy is, to a degree). But we can share that subjective experience with others to make it more real. (that is to say, more outward. If other humans start defining similar concepts to our individual notions, they will remain a concept in our shared reality, not just something that dies with the individual. Maybe that is why we belief. To push the individual subjective onto the shared objective.
divinesleeper Also ideas (as gods) grow with belief. By acting as if you belief in them you make the idea more real in the world. So one could say, the idea acts through you. Without people / believers, there would be no ideas. Also ideas, as you say, transcend the individual.
you need to believe in things that aren't true, how else may they become" that line made cry uncontrollably... edit: perhaps it did so, because it reminds me that existence has no meaning at all, no real reason for all this suffering, no justification for all those sacrifices we all do to make this bearable...
Nihilism at its depth says, 'Nothing in life matters. Nothing Cares. And the universe will ignore your suffering... but just because it does not care does not mean you shouldn't live your best life.' Life is, by and by what you make of it. Some of our standards may be based in deep-rooted psychological need to keep a tribe together, some of it may be what you've made and informed yourself of over the years. All of it is wholly yours, and you exist, you speck in the universe. But you'll shine all the same, glow, and inspire. Nothing in life may matter, but the impact you leave behind will always speak volumes.
Continued: It is the same with things like good and evil albeit at a different level. We assign these labels to the world around us in order to make sense of the universe. The properties of these things are indeed real, but the "concept" of them is made by humans to give it greater meaning.
+shepard1707 Which is interesting, because this is also what faith is about in a certain sense. As a religious person, this is one of my favourite scenes in all of cinematic and novel history.
+Hello Future Me This scene in the book used to trouble me due to its somewhat cynical tones. I agree though that this scene could also be about what faith is and what it means to humans in their moral workings.
Fully thought out cynicism and Nihilism, and faith, are not necessarily entirely disconnected. They simply have a different idea of where morality springs from.
Nnnooo, not really, no. Nihilism is about "it's pointless to believe that there's justice, mercy and/or duty in the universe"... Nihilism is also about how it's pointless to be a Nihilist and, ultimately, how it's even pointless to talk about philosophy. True Nihilism is actually pretty silly in how self-defeating it is... No, this right here is what _Existentialism_ is about: Accepting that there have never been any gods, that life has no purpose, that everything we do is meaningless, that we're sitting on a planet that's completely indifferent to all of our triumphs and tragedies and that's hurtling through an uncaring emptiness completely devoid of any higher values, and yet facing the adventure that's life with the intent to give one's own life a purpose and creating higher values to aspire for... So yeah, this is basically "anti-nihilism"...
Nihilism is not the belief that life is ultimately pointless and that the world has no sense. That is the "Nihilism for Idiots" edition. Nihilism quite rightly points out that nothing has sense by ascription. Nothing has sense, until we construct it. And something else: Nihilism does not propose depression and defeatism. The Übermensch according to Nietzsche (not Hitler) is someone who is born into the same circumstances as we are: we are chained by pressures other than our own. We are not free to live leisurely; we have to overcome something, be it an enemy, societies restrictions, poverty. You name it. We are caged until we overcome that, and once we have removed the cause of our unfreedom, we are free. Also free of meaning in our lives, since our ultimate achievement has been made; that is negative freedom, to be free OF something. Nihilism, and the Übermensch are about positive freedom, freedom TOWARD something. Arriving in a world bereft of its original purpose, the Übermensch can move on to greater things and construct his own meaning.
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN. Then what would have happened? A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD. There's an artist's view of the world if ever there was one. Beautiful. Love this adaptation so much, Ian Richardson is Death straight out of my head.
It is an intellectual achievement to see the grounding of what can really be called a 'you are your body' belief in materialism expressed in genre fantasy in contrast to the more thematically teleologically or purpose-based pitches on what reality is that not commonly or construed from genre fantasy. At least, outside of books.
Interesting execution. If I'm not mistaken, the point here is that morals do not exist, they are lies, but we humans pretend they do or live as if they do, because that is the only way to become human, but in reality, morals are just things we have fashioned out of our minds into existence . But that doesn't really make sense, because that means that we already grasp or presumably know what morals are, we are just trying to make them exist, or in a better word "present" in our world. In reality, morals actually do exist in some plane of reality beyond our comprehension and they are real, which is why we realize we need them. How can I want tomatoes if I don't know what tomatoes are ? It's like saying I met a person who doesn't exist. You can't know and comprehend a concept if the concept itself doesn't exist. I can't know what 1,2,3 are if I don't know what numbers are. And for something to be known, it's concept must exist. So, morals or their concepts do exist, they are real, or else we couldn't have known what they are. And humans can't make a concept out of nothing, they need inspiration. And concepts of morals can't be inspired, rather they are things which inspire other concepts. The concept of a knight facing beasts is a resultant from the concept of bravery, valor, and courage, not the opposite. Basically, I get the idea of the video here, and I agree, we NEED concepts like morals in order to be human, but that doesn't mean that the concepts themselves don't exist without us or can be inspired by other concepts.
The point of the metaphor was that some things we as a whole believe to be real (and often depend on) are often times things that have no real physical form. Ideas like Justice and Fairness only exist due to our own belief in them and not just because they have a physical shape. Monsters and characters like Santa, Jack of the beanstalk exist if only to sow the seeds of what we base our morals off of. So in other words. YOU ARE PURPOSELY TAKING THE METAPHOR TO SERIOUSLY! Ironically proving it.
@SollaceLux Shame Terry said he's not going to be writing anymore books with Death as the central character. Can't blame him for that really seeing how his Alzheimer's is getting progressively worse and he had already stated that once it has reached the point where he can no longer make any new books he's going to end it. So yeah the last thing I would want to think about is Death.
Sadly, this misses one final, vital point: We believe in fantasies, but it's important that we choose to believe in the good ones, or we'll fall for the evil ones.
Death has difficulties judging what is good and evil. Personally I think he dislikes working overtime even if things like time and space are kind of irrelevant to him.
Actually, more recently, he's deemed to have Alzheimer's. Then again, the books are the sort of thing I'd reccomend everyone read once, if only to be able to question what's going on around them.
This is an example of Death explaining the reason that the balance between sub reality and reality are important to create an cosmic balance ( while speaking in riddles at the same time…so I get this concept in riddles without belief in something more than the norm then how can humanity ever aspire to greater things if they’re only narrow minded and petty in their ability to believe there’s more in life than what can be easily explained by others…) it’s an basic cryptic zen response…
@Peteman12 My response with be in the form of a quote. “It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of a son of a bitch or another. Ain't about you Jayne. It's about what they need.” - Captain Mal Every hero is human. Ben Franklin, Albert Einstein, and even Mahatma Gandhi were definite confirmed bastards. If we had no Animals dressed as heroes we wouldn't have nearly the amount of heroes and then we would be on a rock going around a mere ball of flaming gas.
A knife has no meaning of its own. The person who uses the knife gives the knife meaning. Our lives are the same. Our lives are meaningful to those who interact with us.
'The place where the falling angel meets the rising ape' - pure poetry.
"Between ape and angel" is part of an epigram about becoming from the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche.
@@globaltoleranceproject The difference is, Nietzsche thought that one becomes the other naturally.
He did not understand that becoming the fallen angel comes from life not turning out as that person tried to live, in spite of often extreme effort, and also from great suffering, which in turn makes that person choose to become like that, or not.
Only in fantasy does the good and the bad exist as full potentials, using the Rising Ape and Fallen Angel examples here.
Only in fantasy, and fantasy alone, do they coexist, and can safely be explored and understood.
Fantasy was in many ways Nietzsche's blind spot, and it is not just him; many professionals trying to understand human nature have that same issue, and always will.
Terry Pratchett was a Poet and an English Professor.
Every English Professor would reject him as a companion. Nietzsche would as well. @@Victor-056
Rumi talked about man being between beast and angel centuries before that@@globaltoleranceproject
"You need to believe things that aren't true, how else they can become"
I love that line so much, it strips away a tiny bit of nihilism and replaces it with hope. If you believe in a world that ultimately doesn't care about your existence it's easy to struggle with finding purpose in your life, but one way to over come this is realizing that you can give meaning to you're own life and the world around.
Things like justice, duty, love and hope may no be real in our world. But we can make them real and strive to create them in our lives.
Uhhh this *is* a part of nihilism.
"but one way to over come this is realizing that you can give meaning to you're own life and the world around."
Umm that's not how I interpret it at all, and I don't think that's what's meant by it.
Any meaning that you give to your own life or the world around you, if it's purely subjective and materialistic, is still nihilistic.
I dont think you got that right man. Though the last sentence, the sentece you quote, is kind of missleading and not part of the original phrases.
This little play is more an argument for actual belief and against nihilism.
Believing in things, we can not know for sure, is just human nature.
We have a natural proclivity to believe, though this might be evolved by evolutionary pressure. But still, Humans need to belief in things to be, what we call "human(e)". Its just something what humans do.
Death (or the Author) means that almost everybody believes in something, which cannot be proven by empirical evidence, even if they tend to not see it that way .There is no empirical evidence of something as justice etc to be found in the universe "And yet you try as if there is some ideal order in the world, as if there is some rightness in the Universe, by which it may be jugded." With that he kind of calls out to the (atheist or) rational types, which still hold justice etc. as an ideal, by pointing out that ideals like mercy and jusice, are also far fetched things you have to beliefe in. Things as far fetched as a belief in fairytales, christmas...or God.
@@tayzk5929 Optimistic Nihilism
@@paragondreams340 you mean an Existentialist?
Only in the Discworld can death, the ultimate absolute of an uncaring universe, be caring being or justice and mercy, who looks down upon a young girl, frozen to death in the snow and think "This isn't fair" and once, just once in all of creation, breaks the rules and gives her back her life and a future, just to bring a small measure of justice to this cold bleak world
Actually, Death is not absolute at all in the Discworld. Death has his own time, and when it passes, a new Death rises and comes for him.
@@midnightflare9879 But didn't Death kill New Death because New Death was a maniacal egomaniac? discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Death
He couldn't have, if he hadn't been filling in for the Hogfather. Albert even pointed it out that he's not allowed to do that. And Death knows he's not allowed to do it, even if he wants to, no matter how badly he wants to. He couldn't even do it for his own daughter and her husband when their lives were cut short by a carriage wreck. He had to reap them, too, and then had an emotional breakdown and desperately scoured the Disc to learn how to forget.
There was a whole book, Mort, about what catastrophes happen if The Duty is ignored or unfulfilled even on a single life.
But the Hogfather can. The Hogfather gives presents. And what better present is there than a future?
Death used a technicality to get around one of his own rules because he cared and saw an opportunity. He wasn't there as Death, he was there as the Hogfather. And the Hogfather gives presents, and the present he gave her was more time, just as the lifetime ran out, so he could get her still alive self to a warm place and good food.
@@midnightflare9879 Not really. Death's lifetimer is empty. He will never die. When Atuin dies, as the last living thing under the Disc, and there is nothing left, Death will be reabsorbed into Azrael, the Death of Universes, of whom he and all other Deaths are just a fragment, in the same way that Death of Rats is a fragment of Death that took on its own separate existance. Death's full name is Death of The Discworld.
What happened in Reaper Man was that the Auditors convinced Azrael to 'fire' Death, making him mortal. During which time he had a lifetimer.
A new fragment of Azrael then congealed to replace him, because there can never be a vacancy on The Duty for long.
However... AZRAEL has a lifetimer, in the form of the Celestial Clock, with it's Eon Hand and Millenium Hand, and it's big hand goes around only once.
When the big hand finishes it's single circuit, Azrael will perform the Final Duty, and will reap the UNIVERSE. Thereafter, with no life left to die, Azrael will cease to exist at the same time, and die with it, and then there will be nothing.
@@GuukanKitsune But then, what will Azrael do? Create something else? Reuse his previous creations?
lets just hope the real reaper is just as awesome as this one. talking to him would be one of the best experiences in my li......one of my best experiences.
Fun fact: Terry Pratchet would occasionally get letters from terminally ill children about how his character Death comforted them and how they hoped he would be like how Terry wrote him. After reading these Pratchett would often stare at the wall.
+jstin8 I think that's part of what inspired him to champion for palliative care and assisted death. Why let people suffer if death (both the process and the anthropomorphic personification) will give them peace?
It was probably the most meaningful compliment his writing could have gotten; "you gave hope to the hopeless, and comfort to the comfortless".
I'm kind of tearing up at the mental image myself.
THANK YOU.
Well done!
The most poetic way of saying "Fake it 'till you make it."
No. Be the change you want to see in the world. Don't just dream of it and take the world as it is with an open mouth, because one must always kiss one's killer, now ain't that so? I think, therefore I am; So what exactly are you gonna choose to be? Because every time we choose to be agents of order, justice, compassion, equity, they go from fantasy to a very tangible reality, otherwise "how else can they become?" It's not faking it til you make it; It's creating it so WE can make it.
I think it’s more apt to say that reality is what you make of it.
Like saying “you need to believe in things that aren’t true how else can them become”. Meaning that all this stuff he says is fantasy is real because we make it so. Stuff matters because we make it so.
@@Darkloid21 exactly. country borders are only a thing because we believe they are.
You can only go buy food with colored paper because we believe the paper is worth something
Civilization, justice, mercy and love are concepts which gives us our idealized world, but the problem these days is that everyone has a different idea of what all of it means, and for some it means nothing at all.
Civility and society are made up concepts we all subconsciously agree to follow with the expectation we can have a peaceful, productive and fulfilling existence.
But since we live in an ever degrading point in history where many just see modern life as a return to the rule of “might makes right”, you’ve got millions of people who act on instinct rather than principle.
To many they just see society as a mass of animals to be manipulated, abused and stolen from without any sense of remorse.
People believe things like mercy, sympathy and love are made up or childish to believe in, what’s worse is that many are so alienated through political manipulation or social engineering they believe it’s morally acceptable to wish death upon others who they don’t like for even arbitrary reasons.
Mankind is losing its sense of imagination for what is best for it, we are a nation but we’re not a community.
In a way, but try to think of it a little more literally. The love you feel for you mom or family is just a chemical reaction that illicits a desired reaction from nerves in the brain, That dopamine and serotonin cocktail isn't chemically different than a drug high. its not love until you FEEL and BELIEVE it is love and so it becomes. IDK how else to describe it than like literal metaphors, something thats literal and factual but metaphorical and "feelings based" as well. Honestly its closer to a teaching in the bible or deep philosophy, purpose and values and things like that don't have physical bodies or matter you can store or touch but they are real because we REALIZE them and make them.
Every time I listen to the death speech I smile. We have human rights because someone imagined a society no longer based on the law of the strongest. We read a book so that someone imagined that education could be for everyone. We sit where we prefer on a bus because someone imagined they could. We progress even if imperfectly because someone transforms into reality what seemed only a short time before fantasy.
Thanks Sir Terry Pratchett
How is any of that progress? Sounds entirely subjective.
Either there is real meaning and purpose, or it's just peoples subjective and arbitrary imaginations.
@@tayzk5929 Certainly not all progress is perfect or for everyone. Often they are conquered and recaptured at great cost. Or get lost in the ruthless logic of the world. But in my perhaps foolish opinion the beginning of the end is when we stop imagining that something better is possible.
@@vimes3303 The point is wether "something better" is just subjective imagination, some people's good change other people would consider bad. Or wether there is a true Goodness that has a more fundamental reality than just peoples imaginations and subjective opinions.
@@tayzk5929 Doesn't matter.
That was the whole point of Death’s speech.
It's how they want the world to be and so, they act as though it is so that it becomes more like that world.
@@Lobsterwithinternet If you're interpreting the speech simply as people want the world to be a certain way, so they act that way, that leaves the speech pretty banal and meaningless. That would be my only point.
"The sun would not have risen, a mere ball of flaming gas would have illuminated the world" is the rising ape without the falling angel.
He was on point from the beginning.
My two favorite authors, Tolkein and Pratchett. Tolkein taught me how to be a better person. Pratchett taught me how to be better at being a person.
I am very happy that so many people found this scene as deep and touching as I did. A whole philosophy about life in a couple of minutes.
To me I am amazed reading pratchett, hes got a diffrent way of looking at things, makes you both laugh , cry, and think. To me he is the best athur of anything really, I cant get enough
There is objective reality and there is objective MORALITY. We do not have to believe in any lies to be humans, we need lies to have excuse to kill each others thinking we're doing the right thing. Peace.
@Sompompir Plemeniti
You have completely missed the point. Perhaps lies lead to us killing each other, but lies also lead us to such concepts as human rights, democracy, equality before the law and yes, justice, honour, mercy, duty. Also, are you so naive to believe that you understand objective reality?
Justice, mercy, honor, duty are all "lies" that keep society together. Society is the greatest weapon humanity has against natural selection. In the end, that's what good and evil are. Evil acts such as theft and murder are things that disrupt society and hurt everyone. Good acts are those that breed trust so society can continue to function.
YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE, HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?
Powerful stuff that... and so true.
So is Justice not true? Is Beauty not either?
@@Briselance Wow, it's been 13 years since I left this comment, haha.
Fundimentally Justice and Beauty are human concepts and, as such are arbitary and ever changing, they also only exist within the human mind, they are not components of the universe. As Death says, grind reality "down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest seive" and you won't find any such qualities.
But, that doesn't matter, because if we believe it we can make it true. Justice may not exist, but we can pretend that it does and try to make it real.
@@Briselance Not to Pratchett, like all atheists. They deny true justice, beauty etc but they still arbitrarily and subjectively still can't help but talk about it and affirm it's existence when they themselves feel like it. They reject God and erroneously put themselves in God's place to determine what is right, wrong, true or beautiful.
@@Briselance
Yes, they are what you perceive, a perception is a interpretation of the world you make, word are not reality, they are a interprétation poeple share to try understand the same stuff.
@@orctrihar Words are vessels used to describe reality.
They are what you perceive, you say. Justice is but an interpretation, then. A man wrongly accused of a crime would have a keen perception of justice. Telling him that justice is but a lie would be being in the wrong.
If you can feel the consequences on injustice, then you can know what justice is. And by then, you know it is most assuredly not a lie.
The human condition summed up in less than 2 minutes. The man was a genius.
Right there! Tucked into this wonderful, funny, fairy tale story is one of the most profound ideas ever realized. The universe does not care. It is just physics and chemistry. Justice, honor, compassion, love are all made up by humans. But by believing in them we make them real!
There are terminally ill patients who have written to prachett saying that they hope Death turns out to be just as he described him ... apparently these letters cause him to go and stare at a blank wall for a few hours
Pratchett's take on Death resonates with a line from a somewhat-obscure comic series called 'Elfquest'. "The wolf fights to stay alive, but Death, when it comes, is neither friend nor enemy. It *is*."
One of the best speeches in the entire Discworld franchise. R.I.P Terry Pratchett. Thank you for giving us such wonderful stories.
TS2Dethmonkey in a way it summarizes the entire Discworld franchise
GNU Sir Terry. A man is not truly dead as long as his name is spoken. Let us ensure that it rides within the Clacks of our Internet for all time.
I use this scene to teach my students philosophy.
"Take the universe and ground it to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then SHOW ME one atom of Justice, one molecule of Mercy."
They're all fantasies, all fiction, but it does not make them unimportant or untrue.
I am an atheist, I do not subscribe to any religion, but this line is my holy text.
Funny, I'm no atheist though this line captured the reasons for my belief in this uncertain world.
Yet these things still exist...
@@youropa6953 Yes, they exist, but only as ideas and the tangible things we see are the consequence of those ideas.
And thus begins a Dawkins conversation
Kind of missing the point it feels like if you don't include the rest of his speech.
It could also be the other way around: the rising Ape strives for enlightenment, but is still a prisoner of it's own animalistic instincts, while the fallen Angel is no longer as pure as it once was, but still remembers it's Virtuous past.
It could even be both ways at once.
Exactly.
i love the way belief is portrayed here: in too many works of fiction, they focus on religion as belief. Ptrachet shows that things like justice, honor, and mercy can be believed in just as strongly, even if their is no real proof they exist.
Benjamin Zbogar all those subject are believe to be part of the universe in religions...
But justice, honor, and mercy do not require religion to be believed in.
This is the sort of thing that truly separates man from animals. We govern ourselves and our behavior in accordance to concepts just as much as we do environmental challenges. I don’t think animals can show justice, or even revenge. They see something that hurts them, and they either avoid it or kill it to eliminate future danger. Revenge and justice I believe is born out of a human demand for empathy in those around us, and it is often a lack of empathy that causes the harm that inspired a call to justice or revenge in the first place.
Not religion (belief in a god), but belief, in general, such as in other people. Where did the concept of chivalry come up but some noble who said his own personal opinion and made others believe him?
M
Actually, many religions do require the aforementioned, it’s just Hollywood and anti-religious extremist like to misinform that all religion is corrupt.
Even then, that’s not the point. The point is that the mere and truest form of justice, mercy, duty etc cannot be defined by one human, nor understood, because the truest form is nonexistent, yet we try and believe that there is such a true form because we want to. We all have our own view of what justice and mercy is, just like how different religions see the world in their own way so no true definition exists, even if we take science into consideration, it’s neither the same nor does science know everything about humanity.
RIP, Terry Pratchett.
A man is not dead while his name is still spoken
Elprofe britanico then in a way, Sir Terry is immortal
There's an amusing short story that I heard of, where that's literal. After you die, you sit around in a giant boring waiting room (Purgatory) until the last person who knows of you dies. *Then* you can move on.
Some people are very very impatient to be forgotten :-p
I've always found Pratchett to be an invaluable source of truly deep philosophical insight. Probably more than lots of academic philosophers.
With Death you can actually have the deepest conversations about life.
Grey Warden and Champion of Kirkwall
That’s both poetic and ironic!
This is quite easily the single most important exchange of dialogue in the history of the spoken word.
The last line always makes me cry. Beautiful speech.
DAMN IT MOVIE I NEVER HEARD OF! WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME FEEL THINGS!?!
because this is not simply a movie, its terry pratchett
So that you can now compensate never hearing of it by watching it and reading all of Sir PTerry's books.
Before, I was not planning on doing any of the Santa, Tooth-fairy, etc, but this one scene completely changed my mind.
Well, my vision for the world is one where we dont lie to our kids or each other (avoiding much tragedy) while still imparting a humanist message.
One of the best speeches in recent literature. The Hogfather is full of such silly wisdom and warped, but solid humanity. RIP Sir Terry.
As is all of Pratchett's work, really. He nailed human nature as very few writers ever do. Shakespeare had it. Pratchett had it too.
You know, that line about believing the lies is both inspiring and chilling, because that can be turned right around into writing monsters into heroes.
Precisely. Belief, faith, religion, whatever term you want to use... it's a tool. And just like any other tool, it's neither good, nor evil. It *is*. And it's the people using it that use it for good or evil. Belief can make heroes into monsters, or monsters into heroes. We make our own devils, and angels, out of what we already have inside us. That's the glory and the terror, in one package.
Calling mercy and justice lies? That is a lie in itself. Just because there is no physical form to justice doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that we can't see its consequences.
@@Briselance
He literally *explicitly* countered your argument in the clip you JUST watched...
"...show me ONE atom of justice. ONE molecule of mercy..."
You HAVE to believe in them IN ORDER to *CREATE* them. If you don't put in the work to bring about justice or mercy, then they *will not exist.*
This is categorically factual. It is non-negotiable. You have missed the entire point of the dialogue.
A rock will still exist whether you believe in it or not. "Justice" and "mercy" are abstract *concepts,* not real, tangible, physical things that have an inherent presence of their own. Justice and mercy *NEED* someone to *believe* that they can exist in order for them TO exist. The are *ENTIRELY* dependant on a lifeform's cognitive belief in them in order to have *ANY* presence in the universe.
They are lies because we keep telling ourselves that they are *intrinsic* properties of existence, even though they *only* exist because *we* believe they exist.
If the whole universe was nothing but rocks, ice, and stars, and the most rudimentary Laws of Physics required to sustain those things, then there would be no "justice" or "mercy" in existence.
*Gravity* is real. It is not a lie that we tell ourselves. It has very clear properties despite literally being an invisible force enacting itself upon *EVERYTHING* around us.
You take away all life in the universe, and yet gravity keeps doing what it was doing like nothing changed.
See the difference?
you know the writer of the novel did a good job when they use his written dialog almost verbatium in the movie version
Only one way could have this scene be better: Sir Christopher Lee speaking those wise words of inherent absurdity and heroism of humanity.
This is perhaps the best argument for faith/belief I have ever heard. It is a logical fallacy when you get down to it (Ad hoc ergo propter hoc) but a lot of our best qualities, when absolutely reduced, are fallacious. I'd rather live in a fallacious world that is filled with justice and mercy than a wholly coldly logical one... even if that world is a bit silly from time to time (keeps us on our toes). When faith makes a person more generous, compassionate and loving I will never seek to insult it or take it away. When faith causes suffering, then I will mock it and deride it for the B.S. that it shows itself to be. Mathew 7:18 and Dhammapada 1:1-2 for the textually minded, seem to agree with this sentiment
Omg wow, here's the christian who makes a beautiful speech into a religional argument. Just great.
Niklas Pedersen
Actually I'm an agnostic atheist who appreciates the beauty and poetry in deeply spiritual texts. Within them I think there are hidden bits of wisdom that smart people have managed to sneak in over the years. I'll read Rumi next to the Buddha and the day after that I'll enjoy a sample of the Songs of Solomon. I don't hate faith and I see the beauty in what it can do for people... I love the argument in this movie and think it is one of the few that "works" for me on an emotional level, even if I don't agree or feel the same way.
I wish everyone thought like that.
"Logic, Logic, Logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end".
-Spock, Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country
I couldn't agree more. I never saw a reason for faith before, but after watching this video, I think I can make room for some. I'll have to read this book.
This stuck with me as a kid and sticks with me today. Terry Pratchett made me who i am, and i cant ever thank him enough
I really enjoyed this movie. going to make it a Christmas tradition from now on.
Phelan anyone know the whole hogfather myth ? (need the right "little lies" for my own kids, where better to start)
My family members don't want to watch it because of the skeleton ... they think it's a horror movie :( ... when in fact it's an awesome movie about the nature of belief.
My second favourite Death. Only because Death of the Endless from Sandman is number 1, but its a close call
Both are creations of great British authors and they even worked together to create one hilarious novel.
I watched this before and felt compelled to say this. Mostly for those who may be bothered by others who believe in religion.
Some people believe not only because they think it's right or true. It's because it gives them hope. It makes going to the afterlife easy I suppose. It brings a kind of comfort and that we might not be alone. In our times or hardship when you have no one. The idea of a God being by your side can be very helpful. It can get you through the hardest times. It did for some of my family members at least. When you have no one to go to you can go to God.
I'm not the most religious person anymore. However even I needed hope before and yes I did find it in God. Was it false hope? Perhaps but I'm still alive today and I made it.
I'm not here to debate this I just wanted to say this and leave it be.
Julie.S Lovely and i agree with all that you say. though to be a pessimistic realist, most atheist bothered by religion is what is done in the name of it and what it excuses. similar to how people object to most "alternate medicine"
eythor19 Yeah I know what you mean. It's actually entertaining sometimes how one goes off on a tangent about religion and it leads to nothing. Most Atheists I know don't even seem to care and just go on their way.
Julie.S
Being an atheist is a passive thing after all. They don't think about shit like the afterlife or anything. Just when shit is done in the name of religion such as denial of evolution and science.
But there are assholes everywhere and those who want to hammer in the anti-religious sentiment. Hell, I was like that for a time.
eythor19 I agree with you. However being religious does not equal the denial of evolution or science in every case. I'm an example of that. There is logic some just choose not to use it. Many Christians I have talked to over the years have given me a 50/50 chance view of it. Some deny evolution and some believe. My family taught me that evolution is real and that there can be a balance.
Some people are more accepting and others aren't.
I believe problems happen when one party tries to force their view on the other.
Religion or faith in fact does nothing for you. How can it? It doesn't exist. Anything you think came from a god, came from you.
The best explanation of why religion exists, and one of the most profound speeches in literature, Terry Pratchett said more in a sentence than most authors do in a whole book.
I’m a atheist so my perspective on why theistic religion exist is that some people need to believe there is a higher power out of Despair and life after death to feel closure for me I am content believe in no life after death I am not disturbed by that but some people are and so they believe because their brain wants them to
@@Hecateofcrossroads , have you read Small Gods by Pratchett?
@@qwot1 no
Thank you for posting this. I was trying to explain this scene to my girlfriend and I just wasn't doing it justice. Terry Pratchett is freaking brilliant!
Listening to this line legit made me cry again. Ian's voice is so perfect as Death in getting across on the message of of faith and justice. I remember mulling over the line for weeks when I first heard it and went though so many emotions from pity and apathy to acceptance and release.
Nothing spiritual is physically real, but our beliefs is what makes it real. Assuming there's a karma that does the work for you isn't the same as helping another person and bringing justice to broken systems. One cannot lose hope on progress, otherwise it will disappear if it's not nurtured and cared for.
If Terry write a Superman story it would be a masterpiece.
Oh good no... every villain and hero would be like the riddler!
"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind; it doesn't take you anywhere, but it tones up muscles that might." -- Terry Pratchett
Unfortunately Mr. Pratchett has Alzheimer's. I've watched two brilliant and funny people in my life drizzle away bit by bit to it. I can't stand to watch it happen to him. Another big lie is that Death is the ultimate scary end. No. There are things much worse than death.
What I took away from this is that justice, mercy etc... don't exist, but the fact that we believe in them make them as real as the earth beneath our feet.
Well yes and no, technically no they dont exist, but with enough belief they become integral to our world, just as the earth and sky
Death is a guy youd like to meet. I've never been afraid of death or dying, but if I ever had been, this version of Death is somewhat comforting.
GNU to Terry Pratchett - what an absolute champion of all that's the best of us
There is something very Camusian about this which I’m loving
I love how Death can say that. brillient
I don't know if this line was in the book, but it fits so well. Pratchett kept forgetting that he was writing about a children's fantasy world, and not the real world. Which is what made it awesome.
It was. They shortened the dialogue scene a bit for it is more deep and longer in the book but despite that the scene is still good in context of the film.
@@denniszaychik8625 Thanks for the clarification
@@sumez4369 You're welcome. :)
Keep this video up. Don't take it down ever. And thanks.
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.
And this quote gets to sum up a complex philosophical point in my university paper on human rights and human nature in general :)
You know that you got yourself a good book or a movie when the reasoning that Death provides goes deep.
The first time I watched this, I thought he was being nihilistic, which was why I tried to find something wrong with his reasoning. I've since learned bits and pieces of his history, and he has performed act of mercy, compassion, he has shown a sense of justice, he's been courteous to someone who'd just been murdered to the point of apologizing when he got distracted, and he cared enough about her to make her a holiday card.
Death believed in and valued mercy, compassion and justice, but he also understood how fragile they are, that they can only exist if we believe in them.
an amazing quote, from an amazing character, created by an amazing writer...
Beautiful dialogue, just beautiful
Justice and mercy are individual experiences (as any fantasy is, to a degree). But we can share that subjective experience with others to make it more real. (that is to say, more outward. If other humans start defining similar concepts to our individual notions, they will remain a concept in our shared reality, not just something that dies with the individual.
Maybe that is why we belief. To push the individual subjective onto the shared objective.
divinesleeper Also ideas (as gods) grow with belief. By acting as if you belief in them you make the idea more real in the world. So one could say, the idea acts through you.
Without people / believers, there would be no ideas.
Also ideas, as you say, transcend the individual.
Thanks Terry, RIP
Beautiful
you need to believe in things that aren't true, how else may they become"
that line made cry uncontrollably...
edit: perhaps it did so, because it reminds me that existence has no meaning at all, no real reason for all this suffering, no justification for all those sacrifices we all do to make this bearable...
Nihilism at its depth says, 'Nothing in life matters. Nothing Cares. And the universe will ignore your suffering... but just because it does not care does not mean you shouldn't live your best life.' Life is, by and by what you make of it. Some of our standards may be based in deep-rooted psychological need to keep a tribe together, some of it may be what you've made and informed yourself of over the years. All of it is wholly yours, and you exist, you speck in the universe. But you'll shine all the same, glow, and inspire. Nothing in life may matter, but the impact you leave behind will always speak volumes.
Continued: It is the same with things like good and evil albeit at a different level. We assign these labels to the world around us in order to make sense of the universe. The properties of these things are indeed real, but the "concept" of them is made by humans to give it greater meaning.
A brilliant piece of dialogue.
Both, which is precisely what makes humanity special.
This really helps with the life long existential crisis I can't seem to shake. Don't fear the reaper bro.
i can't get enough of this.
What hope does the harvest have, if not for the care of the reaper man?
I am waiting for the day I wont get chills form this quote... The day I wont have tears in my eyes.... :)
This really makes you think. i like that
I always liked the version in the novel:
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point?"
"MY POINT EXACTLY."
Nope, all of those things are spooks.
This. This right here. This is what Nihilism is REALLY about. Put in the best words, and with the best voice, they can be put in.
+shepard1707 Which is interesting, because this is also what faith is about in a certain sense. As a religious person, this is one of my favourite scenes in all of cinematic and novel history.
+Hello Future Me This scene in the book used to trouble me due to its somewhat cynical tones. I agree though that this scene could also be about what faith is and what it means to humans in their moral workings.
Fully thought out cynicism and Nihilism, and faith, are not necessarily entirely disconnected. They simply have a different idea of where morality springs from.
Nnnooo, not really, no. Nihilism is about "it's pointless to believe that there's justice, mercy and/or duty in the universe"... Nihilism is also about how it's pointless to be a Nihilist and, ultimately, how it's even pointless to talk about philosophy. True Nihilism is actually pretty silly in how self-defeating it is... No, this right here is what _Existentialism_ is about: Accepting that there have never been any gods, that life has no purpose, that everything we do is meaningless, that we're sitting on a planet that's completely indifferent to all of our triumphs and tragedies and that's hurtling through an uncaring emptiness completely devoid of any higher values, and yet facing the adventure that's life with the intent to give one's own life a purpose and creating higher values to aspire for... So yeah, this is basically "anti-nihilism"...
Nihilism is not the belief that life is ultimately pointless and that the world has no sense. That is the "Nihilism for Idiots" edition.
Nihilism quite rightly points out that nothing has sense by ascription. Nothing has sense, until we construct it. And something else: Nihilism does not propose depression and defeatism. The Übermensch according to Nietzsche (not Hitler) is someone who is born into the same circumstances as we are: we are chained by pressures other than our own. We are not free to live leisurely; we have to overcome something, be it an enemy, societies restrictions, poverty. You name it. We are caged until we overcome that, and once we have removed the cause of our unfreedom, we are free. Also free of meaning in our lives, since our ultimate achievement has been made; that is negative freedom, to be free OF something. Nihilism, and the Übermensch are about positive freedom, freedom TOWARD something. Arriving in a world bereft of its original purpose, the Übermensch can move on to greater things and construct his own meaning.
*runs out of no where* snow ball fight *throws snow ball at death and runs* lol
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
Then what would have happened?
A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
There's an artist's view of the world if ever there was one. Beautiful.
Love this adaptation so much, Ian Richardson is Death straight out of my head.
"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape."
This is such a nice profound bit.
..so you can believe the big ones.
YES,JUSTICE,MERCY,DUTY-THAT SORT OF THING.
Death is always honest
It is an intellectual achievement to see the grounding of what can really be called a 'you are your body' belief in materialism expressed in genre fantasy in contrast to the more thematically teleologically or purpose-based pitches on what reality is that not commonly or construed from genre fantasy. At least, outside of books.
Reboot!
GNU Terry Pratchett
a man is not dead while his name is still spoken
The creative divine spark.
Why did this make me cry?
The best moment of the Story
everytime i hear that it makes me feel sad.
Such a touching grandfather/granddaughter moment. XD
Happy Hogswatch, everybody!
Holy damn this scene feels so emotional.. Maybe everyone could do with hearing those words. It's like a weight being lifted
My GOD does this hit hard
Interesting execution. If I'm not mistaken, the point here is that morals do not exist, they are lies, but we humans pretend they do or live as if they do, because that is the only way to become human, but in reality, morals are just things we have fashioned out of our minds into existence .
But that doesn't really make sense, because that means that we already grasp or presumably know what morals are, we are just trying to make them exist, or in a better word "present" in our world. In reality, morals actually do exist in some plane of reality beyond our comprehension and they are real, which is why we realize we need them. How can I want tomatoes if I don't know what tomatoes are ? It's like saying I met a person who doesn't exist. You can't know and comprehend a concept if the concept itself doesn't exist. I can't know what 1,2,3 are if I don't know what numbers are. And for something to be known, it's concept must exist.
So, morals or their concepts do exist, they are real, or else we couldn't have known what they are. And humans can't make a concept out of nothing, they need inspiration. And concepts of morals can't be inspired, rather they are things which inspire other concepts. The concept of a knight facing beasts is a resultant from the concept of bravery, valor, and courage, not the opposite. Basically, I get the idea of the video here, and I agree, we NEED concepts like morals in order to be human, but that doesn't mean that the concepts themselves don't exist without us or can be inspired by other concepts.
Terry Prachett is a genius!!
Oh he is. It's just mixed in all of the silliness and frivolity are messages that do need to be said.
despite the age on this video, the quality is so good
Reading the books in my early 20's I always imagined Death's voice to be more like Andrew Eldritch....only louder...a lot louder.
The point of the metaphor was that some things we as a whole believe to be real (and often depend on) are often times things that have no real physical form. Ideas like Justice and Fairness only exist due to our own belief in them and not just because they have a physical shape.
Monsters and characters like Santa, Jack of the beanstalk exist if only to sow the seeds of what we base our morals off of.
So in other words. YOU ARE PURPOSELY TAKING THE METAPHOR TO SERIOUSLY! Ironically proving it.
"It could even be both ways at once."
If everyday life is any indication it most likely is.
love Pratchett. words as good and with as much meaning as a Dylan song of old - but better. Oh, Terry you DO believe!
@SollaceLux Shame Terry said he's not going to be writing anymore books with Death as the central character. Can't blame him for that really seeing how his Alzheimer's is getting progressively worse and he had already stated that once it has reached the point where he can no longer make any new books he's going to end it. So yeah the last thing I would want to think about is Death.
I liked Death's voice that I imagined, better.
Thanks Pterry, good bye.
+Iadrov As a Pyramids fan, I appreciated this
Sadly, this misses one final, vital point: We believe in fantasies, but it's important that we choose to believe in the good ones, or we'll fall for the evil ones.
Death has difficulties judging what is good and evil. Personally I think he dislikes working overtime even if things like time and space are kind of irrelevant to him.
Actually, more recently, he's deemed to have Alzheimer's.
Then again, the books are the sort of thing I'd reccomend everyone read once, if only to be able to question what's going on around them.
This is an example of Death explaining the reason that the balance between sub reality and reality are important to create an cosmic balance ( while speaking in riddles at the same time…so I get this concept in riddles without belief in something more than the norm then how can humanity ever aspire to greater things if they’re only narrow minded and petty in their ability to believe there’s more in life than what can be easily explained by others…) it’s an basic cryptic zen response…
Is...is this Lady Mary?
Terry, what have I told you about you changing my perspective on reality?
Reinforcing mine.
@Peteman12 My response with be in the form of a quote. “It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of a son of a bitch or another. Ain't about you Jayne. It's about what they need.” - Captain Mal
Every hero is human. Ben Franklin, Albert Einstein, and even Mahatma Gandhi were definite confirmed bastards. If we had no Animals dressed as heroes we wouldn't have nearly the amount of heroes and then we would be on a rock going around a mere ball of flaming gas.
sorry, ment to click the thumbs up button
A knife has no meaning of its own. The person who uses the knife gives the knife meaning. Our lives are the same. Our lives are meaningful to those who interact with us.
this movie, just...wow