Orthodox Epistemology: Participatory vs Propositional Knowledge of God with Bishop Maximus
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2023
- #Logos #LogosRising #Christianity
In this stream I am joined by Bishop Maximus to discuss the unique dimensions of Orthodox theology, its participatory relationship to God, and how this differs so much from Western Christendom's focus on rational propositions . Make sure to check it out and let me know what you think.
God bless
Contact Bishop Maximus Here: romiosini@aol.com
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Wow. Edifying is an understatement! I listened last night and again this morning, and I'm about to listen again! Thank you George for getting this to happen, and thank you Patrick and Bishop Maximus for going into so much depth and not rushing through the conversation. Above all, Glory to God for answering the Bishop's prayer at the start of the conversation. 🙏🏻☦️ It's so true, piety has been all but forgotten to but a few. We are blessed to hear the advice of such a pious worker for Our Lord as Bishop Maximus. May his years of ongoing work be many!
Thank you very much Kristin. God Bless 🙏
Nice. He's in GOC under Metropolitan Demetrios of America. We need to get closer to these people and understand their value. They were in Communion with ROCOR until the union with MP. Fr. John Romanidis said "These Old-Calendarists have more grace then us!" He never joined them, but understood them.
We all hope this issue will be resolved soon enough. Saying this as an Old Calendarist myself, who has been struggling on this issue...
Fascinating quote! Do you happen to know where I can find it?
Thank you DPH for this wonderful stream. In time, I believe we'll all see that the toxicity towards people like Bishop Maximos comes from ignorance and also "internetdox" that aren't seeking an Orthodox phronema. Many of them just gaslight. Anyways, I watched Bishop Maximus talk about finding meaning and purpose when he was LIVE at St Photios Seminary and it was very enlightening. I love watching your show and I believe having him on was very good. Thank you again for this! ☦️
I completely agree ☺️.
Thank you DPH for having Bp Maximos on the stream. Hope to see future streams with him! Maybe have a possible future stream with him talking about the issues of ecumenism? Or a stream on the ongoing persecutions of the TOs in Greece.
This is one of my favorite podcasts ever. The "meaning crisis" is dear to my heart as I had been dealing with the "meaning crisis" all my life. This was such an enlightening lecture. Thank you Your Eminence and Patrick. I will be watching this podcast over and over. There is so much to unpack here.
Thanks for hooking it up George. God Bless 🙏
Thanks David and Bishop Maximos. A great conversation! Hope to see more.
Glad you enjoyed. Glory to God if it is edifying for people. 🙏
The chant *Blessed are You oh Lord, teach me Thy statutes* really conveys the positive struggle to repent and purify in a participatory relationship to the revealed and patristic propositional rules and dogma that Bishop Maximos so precisely described the relationship between early on.
Those propositions and dogma protect and aim our participation as Abba Agathon understood of heresy. God bless. ☦️☦️☦️
He is a great bishop. His writings on ecumenism and the calendar issue are really good.
@@T_Wozna Yes. I’m still in the OCA but I read one of his papers on ecumenism and conservative Orthodox fighting within being wrong. I have a great deal of respect for him.
I think Orthodoxy has objective standards and these talks, and the facts being brought up by our clergy and laity, Fr Heers, the coming summit on transhumanism, the CIA and history stuff the mason stuff etc will force these issues and everyone will have to put their cards on the table. I pray the right choice is made and will serve in my local parish until then, and hopefully longer. God bless.
@@Ac-ip5hd I am TO and I’m in ROAC. I always try to have cordial discussions and dialogues with those who were not in communion with. I think one of the biggest issues I had to deal with while I was in ROCOR-MP was with the anathema against ecumenism in 1983.
The ultimate question is if it became binding on all the local churches overtime or not. And if it did, what churches have fallen under it?
After looking at examples of local synods and councils anathematizing heresies and heretics, as long as the anathema corresponds with the Orthodoxy and the judgement declared in Heaven, it becomes binding on the entire Church. I won’t say more on the issue though. It’s just something to think about.
God be with you.
@@T_WoznaI’m Bulgarian Patriarchate. We’ve anathematized ecumenism ourselves. It takes time for local anathemas to become universal. Thanks for not being a insane TO trollbot. I believe that the traditional mainstream Orthodox and the GOC-K will someday unite.
@@ryrocks9487 Google "power of anathema by Vladimir Moss". Its a good read. I hope for unity in Truth.
Great conversation! The 'juicy stuff' is what drew me to Orthodoxy (by way of 'The Way of a Pilgrim') but living a Christian life and working on purifying the soul of the passions has been an absolutely life changing experience; very nourishing. Gotta learn to walk before you run, I often need to be reminded of this 😅❤️🔥🕊️
59:57 I find it ironic that right after Bishop Maximus said “the technology works” the WiFi dropped!
😂 😂 😂
I want to see a conversation between Bishop Maximos and Jonathan Pageau!
I went to Greece once, the island of Kos. The people are indeed very kind and generous. We went to eat breakfast at the same place and after a few days they started to give us a discount for no reason. They really insisted 😂 so we politely accepted. We did give tips but that’s normal, it’s weird to get a discount. I don’t care about the money but the generosity of spirit really struck me. Greek people are great!
What made Greek culture great is Christ. Remove Christ (Orthodoxy), and the greatness disappears
Didn‘t expect this one. Truly Amazing!
This was another wonderful discussion full of valuable lessons on diverse levels! One observation is that this one fleshes-out Fr. Dcn. Ananias' Logic lecture in which he refutes materialism, and it is an excellent companion to his Philosophy of Science lecture (both posted in the past few weeks). I have studied this one again by extensive replay, and will hope to do so again! Thank you!... Edit: I forgot to say it is also a broad illustration of TAG!
Axios!...Finally true brothers...and with "Genuine" Greek Orthodox Bishop to boot! Thankyou both! AXIOS, AXIOS, AXIOS! Ev. Desp.
Great conversation! May we all, cradle orthodox people and converts, experience, preserve and develop the orthodox phonema in our lives and in our relationships, always with humility and fear of God. This will be a powerful weapon for people trapped into the spirit of the world to reorient their lives towards the lived experience of the orthodox faith.
When I see a Bishop I can barely speak. David asks boldly.
Is he a bishop though? Seeing as there is no communion between his group and the larger EO church. Would be like talking to a Catholic Bishop.
@@RandomUserName92840 This comment really shows how in the dark World Orthodoxy actually is. Do you know why we aren’t in communion with The “Majority”? Because of the heresy of Ecumenism.
This was fantastic. Have him back in the future.
Very interesting conversation. Thanks for this one.
Thank you 🙏
I love to listen to your content while I do things on my computer. It's like a gold mine of knowledge!
Thank you. Glory to God it is of use.
Love to hear from Biship Maximus. Such a wise man!
I think I am going to go back and listen to his conversations with John Verveke now!!!
Fantastic conversation ! Many blessings
Thank you for this, instant like
This conversation was right up my alley! Appreciate the stream
This was a very edifying and informative video! Could listen to many more talks between you and the Bishop. Thank you two for your work. ☦
Banger stream 🙏
Awesome discussion.
Lord,have mercy on us all.
Slava Bogu.
☦️🙏💔
💔☦️🙏
🙏💔☦️
2:06:40 I came out of antitheism into Orthodoxy in 2012 officially, but came out of the fog politically in 2021. The poke did it for me, as did NEJM publishing Woke racial preferencing as legit scientific articles. Evolution and old earth just fell a few months ago; Glory to God!
I'm still struggling with the question of how to unify the evidence for evolution with my desire to believe in God.
Some people say the way to unify it is by believing God created evolution.
But based on the evidence it looks like evolution created religious people because religiosity has an evolutionary advance in group selection and religion was the first post-ethnic identity construct, allowing tribes to collaborate, trust each other and fight together against larger tribes, so religious tribes were evolutionarily more successful, and different religions are in evolutionary competition (e.g. Christianity vs Islam) and underwent their own evolutionary processes (e.g. the Germanization of Christianity during the Christianization of Europe).
First
Is it possible to experience ("the participatory" element spoken of) God, whilst meditating on the propositional?
💖☦️📿
Hey David really enjoyed this talk I was wondering if I could PM you or maybe talk over the phone with you about Orthodoxy and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and speak about “participation” and how those 2 ideas connect and if you might have insights about that topic.
If you would like to talk privately you can do so by signing up for a 1 on 1 session. God Bless 🙏
davidpatrickharry.com/shop/one-on-one-education-consulting-session/
@@ChurchoftheEternalLogos Will do Thank you David
I haven't watched the whole video yet. I've stopped where they discuss how orthodoxy is all about, I don't know if this is correct, controlling the passions. A particularly unpleasant symptom of major depression, itself a symptom of the Meaning Crisis, is anhedonia, or, the inability to feel any passion whatsoever. Just wanted to try to share my insight...though finding words is difficult.
Where is that Monastery in Guatemala is it Lake atitlan
St. Ignatius in Santa Cruz Naranjo, Guatemala
@@slowboywhiteboardv4 cool
Go read his article called “The True Orthodox are Truly Orthodox”. He completely destroyed the whole “fighting from within” movement years ago. It’s not even close. It’s crazy that people actually are siding with the ecumenist and calling the True Confessors of the Faith schismatics. The more you actually do your history and look into the topic… You’re gonna realize the “Canonical Church” is a pseudo Church with pseudo bishops and Pseudo Saints. That’s a True Orthodox Bishop.
Please, forgive and pray for me, Eucherius, but I tend to be the contrarian in many instances, like now, however I actually nearly totally agree with you here, though where I differ I doubt you'd even guess. Why I am commenting is that there has been a great deal that has gone on in True Orthodoxy, especially in Greece over the past fifty years that greatly scandalized the faithful and led many to seriously doubt and question it's legitimacy and in many cases give up sadly. There is also the issue of how to deal with Modernism and Sergianist tendencies WITHIN True Orthodoxy! I can't tell you how shocked I was to see a whole TV series Bishop Christodoulos, GOCTV, praising John Romanides called "Franks, Romans and Feudalism" just praising this modernist heretics heterodox ideas and disgusting anti-Western bigotry. How do you deal with a Bishop in the GOC subscribing to and teaching the heterodoxy of a New Calendarist Heretic? And why join HOTCA if Romanides was right?
There is so much I could write but I'm guessing you know about much of it.
An angle so many seem to miss because it isn't as obvious in the cases of Greece and in Romania is that the loss of Royal authority or lacking thereof coincided with the adoption of the Gregorian calendar and the sliding into Modernist and Ecumenist heresy. In America the Greek Orthodox at one time were even split between those who were Royalist and the Venezelists. In Romania the Monarchs were Papists! They had even tried to force the Gregorian calendar onto Romanian Orthodox in Wallachia before Meletios Metaxakis in 1916!
What Metropolitan Demetrios is doing and what Bishop Maximus has done here is really great though and I hope with showing their Love and Great knowledge, Acumen and Erudition what has happened many times in the past miraculously against seemingly insurmountable odds will happen again and a massive return Orthodoxy will occur.
@@christianplace1006 We’ll. One bishop that takes a stance like that doesn’t really encompass all of True Orthodoxy or the GOC-k. Every single True orthodox jurisdiction is going to have issues. That’s apart of the human side of the church. What the GOC-k isn’t is Ecumenist and most of the people I know are against Romanides. Even the Matthewites have taken some of his stances in the past. But, if the GOC-k isn’t for you we have other True Orthodox jurisdictions that are True Confessors of Orthodoxy. I wouldn’t be so fast to denounce them all as a whole. That’s like Fr. Steven Allen, the guy doesn’t agree with a lot of things going on in the GOC-k but he’s spoken out on a number of topics and it’s enlightened people. That rarely happens in world orthodoxy. It’s like a echo chamber on that side of things. Disputes will happen but True Orthodoxy is the Church of Christ at the end of the day.
@@christianplace1006 I replied but I’m shadow banned and I can’t rewrite all that again. Basically what I said was we have issues in all True Orthodox jurisdictions. One bishop doesn’t change much. The majority don’t have that viewpoint. It’s a little different in the case of world orthodoxy because we are talking about the WCC and the entire hierarchy of each jurisdiction being controlled by Freemasons and Ecumenist. Some would say “but not all our bishops are ecumenist” and that’s true. But, we have to look back in history to have a proper view of this. People still venerated icons and stayed under the iconoclast and they inherited that heresy for not breaking communion. Canon XV is clear and what happens after you break from heresy? You set up a proper orthodox synod. They’d say we “created a new Church”. No, we are a continuation of a proper orthodox hierarchy. It’s a pick your poison situation. Stay with the ecumenist or become True Orthodox and deal with a handful of bad bishops that make stupid decisions based on a lack of knowledge. Even the Matthewites have fallen for some of Romanides talking points. It happens when so much calls itself Orthodox and you constantly have to be on your toes to discern what really is. I can tell you this… I am GOC-k and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t think he’s heretical. News to me that they even posted a video of anything he backed. I can ask about it and I’ll tell you what they tell me.
@@christianplace1006I’m sure you already know what I’m going to say. The majority of the GOC-k view Romanides in a negative light truthfully. But, even the Matthewites have taken a few of his talking points and repeated them. I might have seen what you are talking about actually. This would be a good question to ask Bishop Maximus or Metropolitan Demetrius. The Church is both human and divine and we as human beings are in a fallen world and we are sinful. We don’t always make the right decisions and sometimes bishops and priests can be wrong. Even Saints can get things wrong. What is important is that they are not Ecumenist. I know what you mean by Sergianism and Modernism. I can tell you this, Metropolitan Demetrius is a very Holy Man and he tries his very best. Mistakes have been made in all True Orthodox Jurisdictions. Not every situation can be handled correctly. Moderation is important. We don’t want to give World Orthodoxy any ammo but it happens from time to time. The devil is constantly attacking the Church and we have to be mindful of where our thoughts are coming from.
You know True Orthodoxy is the Church. You know the majority have good intentions. You know the apostasy of World Orthodoxy. Mistakes are one thing… Heresy is something totally different.
Reminder that people still venerated icons and Confessed Orthodoxy perfectly but they stayed in communion with the Iconoclasts and were considered outside the Church and had to repent and be received back into the Church. Everything flows down from the bishops and if your hierarchy is in heresy you inherit that same heresy. I would be careful jumping to conclusions when it comes to saying Sergianism and Modernism is in the GOC-k. Does it happen? Yes, it can and probably is happening but not on the scale of the apostasy of World Orthodoxy. Here is a quote from Vladimir Moss
“even into those splinter groups that have separated themselves from the prevailing apostasy, the wolf of heresy may enter and start devouring the sheep. Moreover, there is the ever-present danger that the True Christian, living on one of these islands of God’s Archipelago, may lose hope, may come to believe that his little island will be eventually overwhelmed by the tsunami of apostate Orthodoxy, and therefore decide to throw himself into the waves of the sea, or decide to join himself to one of the false churches of official Orthodoxy. To such a Christian the word of the Lord is applicable: “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom” (Luke 12.32).
Well here in Italy there is no awakeking for now, people here are indifferent to religion. The young ones are even blaspheming God.
> "the fact that technology works is evidence that the science is true"
> cue technical difficulties
lol
27:45 He talks about the saints in the Orthodox Church, does he accept the sainthood of ss Nektarios of Aegina, Paisios the Athonite, Porphyrios of Kavsokalyvia & Iakovos of Evia? Please, next time you have him on your show, ask him this simple question. The schismatic GOC groups do not recognise the sainthood of these giants, the think the "new calendarists" lack grace, so they can't have saints. Some of them go beyond denial and are slanderous
The TOs have saints that the NCs do not accept as well. We don’t get the luxury of using saints and elders as Pokémon cards. I would do some research into the history of TO and the amount of zealots that are saints.
@@T_Wozna So you admit you do not accept the sanctity of ss Paisios, Porphyrios, Iakovos of Evia, Nektarios of Aegina, Evmenios? What about st. Sophia of Klisura?
@@apmoy70 Why are you asking emotionally charged questions when you apparently already know the answers? You aren’t going to get a “Ha! Gotcha!” Answer. The answer is simple. The GOC-K does not recognize NC elder canonizations because they aren’t in communion with the EP. You do not recognize some our saints as well. That doesn’t entail that either position is correct. You should know this and stop asking emotionally charged questions.
Instead you should be asking questions like this:
If the NCs (state church of Greece) are right, why did they brutally persecute the zealots for over 60 years? I suggest picking up the book The Struggle Against Ecumenism so you can get a small taste of that the dealers have endured over the years.
Also, your charge of “ schismatic”is very careless and it seems to be coming from a “zeal not according to knowledge”, because according to your own standard, you would have to label ROCOR schismatics since they were in communion with zealots up until 2005. The GOC-K also does not uphold the same confession of Faith as the rest of the mainline jurisdictions, so they cannot be “schismatic”.
We ought to be careful with the words we use since every idle and careless word we use we are going to be judged by.
@@apmoy70 If you actually knew anything about St. Sophia, then you'd know that the old calendarists venerate her as "Myrtidiotissa", the name she was given by Cyprian of Oropos and Fili when he tonsured her a nun, which is hardly in dispute. The new and old calendarists claim competing miracles of her revealing the name she wished to be called because of this. Further, the old calendarists would question if you doubt the piety of Elder Ieronymos of Aegina, or of Metropolitan Philaret of New York, both of whom are glorified by them, but considered saints also by many under the new calendar.
Perhaps they'd ask if you subscribe to the demonic idiocy of certain metropolitans and Greek archons who call St. Isaac of Syria and St. John the Wonderworker schismatics or heretics, as though any father of the church could have imagined the phrase "schismatic saint". Maybe they'd even ask if you dare deny the sainthood of Chrysostomos of Florina, whose body is said to be incorrupt.
Then they'd go "wow, do you not accept the sanctity? do you not accept the sanctity?" just like you.
@@ardbeg10yr I repeat, do you accept the sanctity of ss. Paisios, Porphyrios, Iakovos of Evia, Evmenios?
I think the negative critique of the wests rational approach is humorous when done by a bishop with a phd who teaches philosophy, and a scholar with two masters degrees working on his dissertation.
how do you say I don't understand what epistemology is without saying it? Hint^
@@Jadedx_ if we can have an epistemology about God, that means we can come to know God, at least in part, through reason.
Isn't he a schismatic?
No, as explained in the beginning of the video...
NO
@@benchernjavsky7097 explain to me how his position isn't schismatic
@@Giorginho he explains that he received a blessing from Met. laurus and Bishop Luke of ROCOR to go under Met. Pavlos of the GOC since they were in communion at the time. If he is schismatic would you believe then that ROCOR is schismatic?
@@benchernjavsky7097 "communion at the time" is doing a lot of work there. Why are they not in communion now?
"Bishop" Maximus is apart of the schismatic group GOC. I was wondering why he was so lax and giving out his email haha.
Don’t call them schismatics. That’s a serious charge against someone who has the same faith, and who were recently in communion with us…
The Macedonian Church was “schismatic” for a while… and now look where we are.
You call us schismatics. We call you Ecumenist heretics. We don’t have the same faith.
Is Father Seraphim Rose a schismatic?
Good discussion but why have it with a schismatic “bishop”?
So I can't have a conversation with an Old Calandarist about philosophy? We're not going to liturgy. Not taking communion. Not belonging to his church. Simply discussing philosophy and that's too much for you? lol I don't get it bro. We literally addressed him not being in communion with EO to start off the convo. Dyer has talks with Tim Gordon on philosophy. Are OC worse than Papists? No one legitimated any church that is not in communion with EO by simply talking to them.
@@ChurchoftheEternalLogos ok 👍
@@ChurchoftheEternalLogos well said
@@ChurchoftheEternalLogos
I hate this term ''schismatic''. It is a hateful and unorthodox term used way too loosely amongst Old and New Caledarists against eachother and within all juristictions. It is very divisive and does nothing but promote the spirit of the evil one. If you take it too far then everyone is a schismatic - MP and the Constantinople Patriarchate have anathemized eachother, etc. It is not for us mere men or even clerics to say who is or is not schismatic. That takes a proper ecumenical synod to decide. There are also proper stances that bishops can also take such as ''walling off'' from other orthodox bishops if they believe heresies are being committed such as severe ecumenism. Just look at GOARCH.
I find it used too often by the orthodox ''virtue sigallers'' who have way too much hubrus in them. I call these people the ''Ortho-Karens'' or ''OrthoWoke''.
Orthodoxy is the spirit of LOVE and not hate or divisiveness. We orthodox should all work towards unity through love and not divisiveness and hate. That is nihilistic.
le cringe
Evanggelos Bousis and Peter Dundas, both of Greek descent, became the first gay couple to hold a Greek Orthodox Baptism for their children in Greece on Saturday.
The couple’s children, Alexios and Eleni, were baptized by his Eminence Archbishop Elpidophoros of America at the Panagia Faneromeni Church in the southern Athenian suburb of Vouliagmeni.
To use a silly analogy on the idea of baseline illumination I would call it "Ortho-sense".
As I grow in faith my Ortho (Spidey) sense is becoming better. I am increasingly able to read people better. I know easier what questions to ask and spot the abominable views and sentiments of people of this age we live in.
However, I constantly have to remind myself and give thanks to God whenever I discern things well. It is only by His grace that I am able to do this.
It is He who keeps me from falling into traps wherever the demons place them. It is tough because sometimes I catch myself thinking "I'm smarter than you" or "what do you take me for?" as if I would even be able to discern anything properly without Gods help.
I always contrast it to how lost I was before in the ways I saw the world. The egotistical and narcissistic and arrogant approached and disposition of the "old" me years ago.
We must let the old man die.
Glory to God for all things and may he have mercy on us sinners. ☦️🙏