Can it REALLY be that good? Ray 6SN7 Reserve tube review
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- čas přidán 6. 07. 2024
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Buy Apos Ray 6SN7 Reserve here: US - bit.ly/A6SN7R, AUS - bit.ly/RayTubesAU
A review of the Apos Ray 6SN7 Reserve tubes with direct comparison to the Ray 6SN7 Select tube and use in the xDuoo TA-26 OTL tube amp.
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00:00 Introduction
01:15 Price & details
02:01 Where are they made?
04:57 Apos Ray 6SN7 Select vs 6SN7 Reserve
09:05 About the value proposition
10:38 Wrap-up
11:01 A quick warning!
#audiophile #audioreview #tubeamp - Věda a technologie
Props to Apos. I had a problem with a select tube and they sent another one immediately.
That's actually great to hear. What Amp were you using ?
Using a pair in a Freya+ preamp.
So happy with the service that I have a pair of reserve on the way.
That's great to hear that they were so responsive! Enjoy your Reserves - they're brilliant!
I missed out on this video this was exactly what i was looking for :) thank you
I like your deep dive into this particular example of the question of tube quality and the difference it may make in sound quality. One thing, though, you said that "I think there may only be (tube) factories in China or Russia, these days." There may only be "general purpose" tube manufactories in those countries, there is a tiny factory in North Georgia, USA, just south of the city of Chattanooga, Tennessee, that has bought the name, intellectual property, and some machines from Western Electric, and are making, right there, brand new, very high quality (and very high price) 300B vacuum tubes. Thanks for a bunch of very interesting work in the reviews and other videos you have made and shared here. All the best!
AND this same company is exploring the possibility of manufacturing tubes other than the 300B.
I have a Cayin HA 300 mkii amplifier. It came stock with Gold Lion 300B tubes, then I bought some Chinese "perfect clone" 300B tubes and also the genuine Western Electric 300B tubes
Let me tell you, those genuine WE 300B tubes are simply amazing! It doesn't require any painstaking A/B testing.
That difference... A HUUUGE improvement is as unmistakable as a Will Smith to Chris Rock slap across the face! Once they're plugged in THERE IS NO GOING BACK.
It's hard to believe that they're even the same kind of tube.
If they ever come out with a 6SN7 or equivalent, I will definitely give them a try
That's great to hear! Thanks for the info about the WE tube factory!!
There’s also tube factories in Slovakia (JJ), the US (Western Electric), Japan (Takatsuki), and I’m sure there’s a few more.
i see a new Tubes for my Schiit Freya :) THX for the reveiew :)
My pleasure. They'll be a perfect match, I think!
A couple of years ago I purchased a matched pair of NIB Mullard ECC32's, (6SN7 equivalents) they were over $1,000. Never been brave enough to use them!
I know that feeling (although not quite to that price). I eventually realised that there's no point spending a bunch and then not enjoying it. Plug them in and smile!
Black tubes are awesome.
I own four Shuguang Black Treasure 12au7 tubes.
Plus a Sophia Electric Aqua 5u4g to take care of my TA22 and TA30.
I’ve also owned a PSVane Cossor black glass 5u4g.
Good idea to put socket savers to add weight and height for vibration and coolness respectively.
You may want to find ways to reduce the vibrations on your tube amps.
Spring type iso feet are superior feet.
Takatsuki are a Japanese company that are often referred to as the king of 300B and 5u4g tubes. Unfortunately, they cost over $1000.
Thanks for the info and for sharing your experiences!
The Apos fits perfectly in the LYR3+.
That's great. How does it sound in there?
They sound really good. As you know each tube has its own flavor. I have many different ones NOS to new. 🎉 I do not have one I do not like. Has money been spent? Yes absolutely 💯. Has it been amazing and fun hearing different presentations with each! Our hobby is to enjoy and the LYR3 + is a lot of fun with my bifrost 2/64 and the Lohius. I also have the Vanatoo transparent one encore plus. They are very good powered speaker.
Thanks for your review. Tubes are amazing and I can run solid state also with the LYR+ also as you know.😊
That's great to hear! Thanks for the feedback on the tube in the Lyr+
I have two tube amps right now: The xDuoo TA-20 and TA-26. Even though I only have these two amps I started getting into purchasing tubes and now have a quite robust collection. While I do not possess any tubes above the 1,000 USD range I do have *a lot* of tubes below that mark. Many NOS, many used. There are many amps on the market I could buy *today* and put my own tubes into them. If you're in the EU or the US and would like to make an inquiry then by all means, do so. Note! I do not have a tube tester yet. It's on my to-do list.
About my two xDuoo tube amps. The tubes with which these amps are delivered are only to send them to the customer in working order. That's it. These tubes are so bad that they don't even have a label or insignia on the glass so they're not even one of the better Chinese valves. The very first tube roll I ever performed was replacing the two 12AU7's in the TA-20 with a pair of 20 USD JJ Electronics tubes. The difference is night and day. Really. Currently I'm running a pair of NOS Siemens 12AU7's from the 1970's, Even better, yes, but not better than swapping out the Chinese stock tubes with the JJ's. In the TA-26 I have some Soviet NOS tubes which I have yet to roll again. I just got those Chinese tubes out of there ASAP.
NOS tubes can be very, very expensive. My advice to anyone who wants to use tube amps and who is in the xDuoo spending category is to buy used tubes. Used doesn't mean bad especially if the seller is providing you with measurements. You can buy many pairs of used 12AU7's for the price of one pair of NOS. I supposed used should be called "UOS" for used old stock. Buy two or three different brands so that you can experiment with the sound signatures so that you have replacements if a tube craps out.
Being the first person to turn a NOS tube into a "UOS" tube is a luxury as the NOS supply is finite. If you think about it, it's not like you get the best sound when you first start using the NOS tubes and then it's all down hill from there. Quite the opposite is true. Valves do burn in and get smoother. I have first-hand experience of this. Let someone else burn in the NOS tube and sell it to you for a tenth of the original NOS price. Being a tube amp owner does not need to be a rich man's hobby unless you opt to make it one. Many of the NOS tubes I currently own are either for a much nicer amplifier than the likes of xDuoo or for resale. I see no reason to spend hundreds of dollars on a pair of 12AU7's and immediately depreciate them, at least not for a cheap tube amplifier. One day when I spend a schiit-ton of money on an amp such as from Woo Audio then I will use NOS just for the luxury of it. Otherwise, no.
I can tell you how crazy the vacuum tube market is. Go and look up how much both NOS and used old stock Western Electric 300B tubes cost. This is a tube used in many Woo Audio amps. Then go and look at the price for the new stock 300B valves Western Electric is producing. The used old stock costs more than the new stock by a large margin. Is the used old stock better than the new stock? I couldn't tell you but that's the nature of supply and demand. Of the three options I would go for the cheapest which immediately excludes NOS WE300B. I don't have ten grand to drop on a pair of tubes.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with tubes. I agree that the NOS tube market is crazy!
Great review! VERY EXCITING!. ..I have a question about the tube, which I cannot seem to find on Ray's website, surprisingly? Tube dimensions. I want to try a pair of these in my Schiit Freya+. It sits in a cabinet and my headroom (height) is tight. Pretend that the pins are not there. I need a measurement from the bottom of the base to the top of the glass globe. Width is not a factor for me. 😀
The tubes are 10.5cm tall excluding the pins. From memory, that's 3.75 inches.
@@PassionforSoundThank you soooo much! 👍🏼…I can see a pair of these tubes in the near future.
10.5cm = 4.13 inches
Edit: scratch that…they are HUGE and will not come close to fitting in my cabinet. 😕
Thanks for saving me the disappointment of ordering them!!!!
Hold on. Let me check the measurements - that was from memory, but I posted the correct measurements for someone else...
Ok. I was actually correct on my inches recollection. They're 9.5cm / 3.75 inches. I hope that gets them in!
I used a 'socket saver' to raise the tube out of the way from the power tubes.
Yes, that can be helpful in some amps. Which amp did you do that with?
A WA3 from Woo, the sound stage and separation are impressive.The real testament is I can't stop using it and solidstate just seems lacking.@@PassionforSound
What would you recommend for the new Schiit vali 3?
I haven't tried any of the tubes it's compatible with so I don't know. Sorry.
For those prices I would think NOS tubes would be as good if not better - would have to be listened to. My favorite is the RCA 5692 but it's getting rare.
The rarity and lack of warranty are the biggest issues with NOS tubes so it's not about these sounding better, it's about predictable pricing and security of warranty, all without sacrificing quality of sound. 🙂
Upgrades with 6SN7s?
- Cayin HA-300 MK2 8W 19+10kg OTC SET (2x power Gold Lion Genelax PX300B, 2x driver Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, 4x rectifier RCA 22DE4)
- Feliks Audio Envy stan/perf 8W 15,1kg OTC SET (power stan. Electro Harmonix Gold / perf. Full Music 300B , driver PsVane CV181 mk2 6SN7)
- Viva Egoista 845 15W 30kg SET (2x power Shuguang 845, drivers Tungsol 6SN7 + 6N1P, 2x rectifier 5U4G)
Thanks for the suggestions!
Have the 6SN7 Select in the LYR3 and it's definitely better than the Stock Tube Schiit includes. Worth it to pay 3X more for the Reserve for a LYR3?
that’s up to your own discretion…
Yep. That's a hard one to answer. The Reserve tube is mighty impressive, but when you're spending over half the value of the amp, it's a tough decision.
@nforSound I decided to order the Reserve from Apos and Return the Select to Amazon. Somebody has to be the Guinea Pig and give the Reserve a go on the LYR3 or LYR+. Might as well be me. Seems like a worthwhile Leap of Faith. I'll chime in again after I test the Reserve
I have a feeling you'll be very happy, but keen for your impressions.
I have the old lyr 3, will these fit through the hole without a socket saver/extension?
That reserve looks a LOT like PSVANE CV 181 Tii., a 6SN7 equivalent. I'd like to know how those 2 compare against each other. I'm willing to bet they're twins
There's a good chance they're coming from the same factory, but I don't have a Psvane to compare.
Do you think i could get away with:
6N1P -> 6SN7 to 6922 Adapter -> insert 6SN7 in the Valhalla 2? to adapt one of these bad boys?
I'd swap in an Electro Harmonix 12BH7 or JJ Gold ECC99 on the other end.
For your upgrade! The Woo Audio WA33 might be able to work with a matched quad
Im not sure if there are issues using adapters into adapters. It's generally better to minimise the number of contact points in a circuit, but you might be able to get away with it.
As for my upgrade, the MZ3 might be my answer if I can get a big bottle to plate for it. 🤞
@@PassionforSound TBH i'll probably get the CFA Trifecta before upgrading tubes X'D. I'm too into IEM's with very low impedance/high sensitivity to benefit too greatly. Only with the RN6 can i get away with runing the Valhalla 2 on Low for a 4.8->26 Ohm output impedance balance.
@@PassionforSound OH! the 6N1P is the same as 6SN7. It's just one adapter. the bias voltage and current range is serviceable, I'm only concerned with the input impedance which is why it would be funny to have the big tubes on the input side (up front).
Don't tell me that! Looks contemplatively at the Folkvangr...
@@PassionforSound I listened to that with my VC's and IEM's at the Schiitr store in CA. It's amazing. I just can't help but think omg the cost of tubes.
Also the Mjolnir 3 is 100% worth the Hype and works with 4OHM iems'. It's a little scary but amazing. Just don't switch between gain/Push-Pull & single ended while plugged up. I will buy one when I move into my next duty station.
Um, you rocked it 😎
Glad you thought so! 🙂🙂
You need to get yourself a Feliks Euforia to test out those tubes.... Plus with the Atriums = wow!
That would be lovely, but I already have so many amps! 🙂
Could you advise best tube for slot at the back for ta 26?
I haven't done lots of rolling, but I like the Tung Sol 6AS7G.
philips jan 6080 tube
@@PassionforSound thanks but I couldn't source one of these
Sorry about that. I don't have any other current suggestions...
As is usual, the paradigm of how much feedback is used in a tube circuit is being ignored. In a circuit where little or no feedback is being used the sound of different tubes is likely to be quite different. However, in a circuit where there’s considerable feedback (20- 30db), such as cathode followers, it would be unlikely to hear much if any difference between high end select tubes and standard current production tubes being as feedback can minimize many tube nonlinearities including microphonics and noise. Tweaky single ended amps are more often than not designed with little feedback and tube upgrades can be worthwhile. Vintage tube gear, like your Dynaco’s, Heathkits, Scott, Fishers, etc., invariably use a ton of feedback, both locally and globally, and would generally not gain a significant benefit from high-end select tubes, except perhaps in the phono stage.
This isn't intended to be a breakdown of tube amp topology the specific characteristics of every amp on the market, just a review of a tube in some clearly declared, specific amps.
current prioduction tube manufacturing:
jj in slovak
several in china
electro harmonix/new sensor in russia
western electric in the US
theres one in germany, its a small outfit like WE in the US
and another...i cant remember where.
in my experience there is no downside to improving the tubes in a system. while you may not get the full effect on a "cheaper" amp, the improvement over something like new stock Sol's will be obvious. But of course their are limits, a $500 tube on a $199 amp is probably a waste of money but if you own a $1k or up pre or power amp, go crazy!
And last point: Rebranding an OEM tube doesn’t increase the tube supply. It simply relabels some of the already produced supply.
Basically $500 for a pair. Thats a tough one as you can almost get any NOS pair for that price..other than the really rare ones. Apos has a 12 month warranty though..plus if its noisey or microphonic in any way one can return it. I wonder what the life expectancy is? 10,000 hours would be nice
The key benefits here are that they're truly new so you'll get maximum life (hours of hard because it depends on the amp), they have warranty as you said, and they are readily available at a predictable performance level that's on par with excellent NOS tubes.
I think that you are an under-appreciated audio reviewer. I follow a number of content creators in this genre and you are among the better but you're not getting the subs, the view counts or the likes I think you deserve. What should we do about this?
I'm rather disinterested in social media but if I was more active I would spread the word. I mention this first because I don't know how active you are promoting yourself on the socials. If you already are active on the socials then keep on truckin'.
To the subscribers and viewers, if you're active on the socials please help the channel and spread the word. And no - I have no relationship to this channel other than being a regular viewer. I'm shilling out of sincere altruism.
Thank you for the support! I've been looking at the growth of other channels for some time now and can't work out what they're doing differently. I can only.assume that it's activity on forums like Head-Fi, etc.
In the short term, sharing links to reviews you like or telling fellow enthusiasts about the channel will always help. 🙂
@@PassionforSound , I think they are growing because they tend to review the items that are getting the hype, or at the very least, the items are popular. When a viewer searches for a review, they are looking for the item and then click on the reviewer's page.
Your reviews are often concerning more esoteric, less sought after audiophile items, so people don't find your reviews as often as they find the other channels.
I love the way you're reviewing: always balanced and fair dinkum. Don't change that. But if you want more viewers, it might be worth your time reviewing some of the more popular (or hyped) items too, just for the hits on the search algorithms.
Anyway, keep up the great work. I don't mind that only a few of us watch your videos: We're in an exclusive club. :D (I've been watching your videos for ages but decided to subscribe today for the APOS 6NS7 tube reviews.)
Thanks for the comment and the sub. I think you're probably right and it's actually one of the challenges I face being in Australia - I can rarely get access to the products as early as those in the USA, especially those connected with a retail outlet like Headphones dot com. As the channel grows, I'll hopefully get more opportunities despite the relative isolation of being in Australia. 🦘 🌏 🙂
I see a silver MJ3 back there.
Really? 😉
Looking forward to your review of it. ☺@@PassionforSound
I still don't know what you're talking about... 😁😂
All these tubes are making me go inPSvane 🤪
Soz, couldn’t resist
I like it!
the price gouging is out of control.
Now if we could just get APOS to make 6922/7308 tubes so I can stop testing piles of Russian ones off an ancient tester.
Haha. Yes, I have a wish list too: 12AT7, 6922/6N1P, 6N6P, KT-66, EL34 😁
Tubes can become a money pit, trust me I know, the upgrades your chasing never end . Eastern block counties like Russia have some of the best out there, for me the biggest difference in your audio, comes from the pre stage . Great fun but expensive .
I agree. It's one of the reasons I'm a fan of quality new production tubes - lower cost and less risk.
LOL, 😂 no, the Ferrari / Fiat metaphor is wrong. You couldn’t get a Ferrari out of a Fiat assembly line. Here, the situation is entirely different. The specs of a 6SN7 were codified exactly by RCA/Sylvania in 1939; all parameters included. What Apos supposedly does is pick the best conforming units at the end of the assembly line. That, in itself, is a valuable QA service, but it’s still a 6SN7 that falls within the parameter ranges defined in 1939, not a Ferrari.
And NOS tubes are still likely to be better.
It's a metaphor, not an exact case study. The point being, the components and materials used in the Reserve tube must be different than those in the Select because the sonic differences are significant.
As per your suggestion of NOS tubes, if all 6SN7s were so similar, there would be no benefit going NOS.
And, finally, I've bought a number of expensive NOS tubes and have yet to hear one for the same price as the Reserve provide the sonic quality of the Reserve.
This Reserve appears to be a LINLAI CV181-H. Linlai is a step above Psvane.
As for “it sounds better”, that, obviously, cannot be argued, as it is a subjective opinion.
As long as you believe it, you are being honest and you should carry on.
PS: All NOS 6SN7 made to specs sound the same indeed.
Russian Tubes are the best
LOL no.
only if bought from Ukrainian sellers
@@bongofury3176 if bought from a Ukrainian seller it's probably fake.
there are lots of tube sellers in Ukraine just like there are lots of toilet sellers in Ruzzia@@dangerzone007