Jesus Christ: The Unanswered Questions - Rowan Williams (2019)
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- čas přidán 27. 03. 2019
- Rowan Williams says that how we understand Jesus Christ in central to how we understand everything, and he wrestles with the the defining question of our faith - who Jesus is. Recorded at St Paul's Cathedral on Wednesday 27 March 2019.
The tone of his voice and serene facial expression...and the contents of his theological talk conveys something nothing less than Divine...
For sure. Whether or not there is a god, I don't know, but Dr. Williams is clearly, genuinely a believer. Not the slightest hint of opportunism or insincerity. A very decent human being.
Yes. He is a saint.
Thank you Archbishop Rowan Williams for teaching, encouraging and inspiring us with your talk. God bless.
This rather reminds me of my undergraduate days at Cambridge. On learning that I was going to Rowan's lectures to better understand Aquinas, my friend asked, 'But to whom are you going first in order to better understand Williams?'
Couldn’t agree more😀
I’d love to know what his lectures were like. Did he take seminars too?
We now have an answer - Ben Myers’ book on Williams!
I'm no fan of RW, but when compared with the current Archidiot he seems to be almost Christ himself.
@@JOINFIGHTAGAINSTPORN I am confused. On the one hand you say you are not a fan of RW and then you call ABC Welby an idiot.
Are you saying Welby is intellectually inferior or is theologically shallow?
Listening to Rowan, whether or not one agrees with him in every particular, is a deeply satisfying *human* experience.
A concise but very true and fair phrase. Rowan is a gift
Also hes a witch : ) sorry warlock ?
@@perseomediterraneo.... but will he use his power for good or evil or king charlrs lolol ?
i think rowan williams thinks on a higher level, and not everyone is going to understand him. but its very enriching to listen to him.
Jesus said " l thank you father that you not revealed it to the wise and prudent,but to children who will learn". Matthew chapter 11v25.
A wonderful talk in which concentrating on the complex thoughts that Dr Williams presents is made nearly impossible by relentless adverts every 5 minutes
believe no man... for we all are flawed have sinned and have fallen short to the glory of father god ... jesus is king baby
From the video: 'God and creation do not occupy the same space.' God is everywhere.
It was an amazing evening. I have never seen an audience so rapt in attention. I need to view the video to continue taking it all in. Thanks to all who contributed.
I was bored to tears.
You would be
Always a pleasure listening to Rowan Williams again, I am glad there's a capture of his teachings online, thank you very much.
His voice is great. Intelligent man.
Right on point !! Message all need to hear!
With gratitude
Brilliant ! 🙏🏼
He speaks the truth
Fantastic!!!
25:40 *Jesus: 100% God-100% man* “Whatever you say about Jesus you’ve got to say that nothing less than the power of God is at work here-whatever you say about Jesus you’ve got to say nothing less than complete humanity is at work here [...] if you want to talk about Jesus in a full blooded Christian way you have to say _nothing less than God-nothing less than human.”_
"he Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; etc, etc" Well that is the Nicene creed. Hardly novel.
Very interesting presentation informative Thank you
Wonderful. Articulate, Affirmitive and Profound
BS
PENIEL face of christ MARANATHA KYMRY FYAH
a wonderful talk. God and the world do not occupy the same space, at least that space that seems familiar to us. This brings up however the twin and simultaneous transcendence and immanence that characterize God's relationship to the world. It is, as Rowan Williams himself notes in answering the first question: Christology needs Pneumatology. God and the world do occupy the same space, but that space is the Holy Spirit.
I wish I knew someone to speak about our savour Jesus or just to know some Christian people 😊
What do we find in the first four books of the new testament? Four (sometimes quite contradictory) narratives - so story and parable has always been central to the Christian message. Some say 'fairy tale' as if its disparaging, yet there is a lot of wisdom in fairy tales.
(BTW Rowan is my favourite Archbishop)
KayleeBrowncoat There are no fairy tales
A wonderful rehearsal of early medieval religious doctrine.
Goosh, I was falling asleep. If i had to sum up what Rev Dr Rowan said, I couldn't. I guess it is probably me.
I think he’s saying that we as the church should lay aside our identity as we’ve known it, stop focusing on theology and classic biblical ideas - stop protecting them and preserving them; and instead focus on being nice people and help clean up our environment. Lovely voice but I can’t say I agree with him. “Do the latter without forgetting the former” I would say and I imagine Jesus saying. In fact, do the latter in the strength of the former.
They gentlemen though... Genius
A true believe r fascinating
Imagine jesus parables with these theological trained speakers.
Theology becomes a conjecture of man, but what has god said about himself, which should be the essence and based on which man may struggle to comprehend!
He speaks the truth... scientists and ethiest going. Nuts.
Interesting intelligent gentleman, quite a soporific tone to his voice which helps me nod off. And now and again I think he says something that might actually be true.
❤❤❤
Yes god power is real ?
So enjoyable and challenging to listen to but the implications of the incarnation are far more profound than the ones identified in this talk. Christ dwelt amongst us, partook of our nature in order to save us from our sin by actively fulfilling the demands of God's law on our behalf and finally dying and rising again in bodily form to pay the price of sin and abolish the eternal consequences of death.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
“You must eat my flesh and drink my blood, for my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink”
Do this in memory of me
Hmmm sounds Catholic!
Tony Maloof John Chapter 6
Peter Hegarty Oh then I guess what your saying is that it is Catholic teaching.
Tony Maloof no it is a commandment of Jesus, the only thing in fact he said specifically to do in memory of him, I think it’s a key point he missed. Peace brother
@@TheVictoroftheDIY well, every Christian is catholic ... you know the "one holy apostolic cathodic, etc" in the Nicene Creed
The talk was very encouraging. I do, however, think that it’s possible to speak of “winning” without meaning others must lose. To say so is to abandon success & progress to the darker forces. The WH is understandably berated for its rhetoric, but has been, consistently, at pains to express its desire that all “win,” which is the short word for nations becoming prosperous and individuals fulfilling their lives. And that we can do these things via cooperation and responsible ecology. One can debate that, but that has been the message, at least, that I e heard.
I find myself mildly resisting only the first posited point from Aquinas, that God and God's Creation aren't at the same place. Surely the truth is that God and all his Divinity, distinct from all that was created by God, can be in the same place (eg the altar) but not at the same time. A fine point of detail perhaps, yet to my mind critical. Taking the altar as a place, we need to expect of all clergy as they prepare the host to be Eucharist, as they break the bread, to be saying words to the effect of asking God's presence through Jesus and all God's Angels, to sanctify the bread. The bread is of Creation and God is being asked to bring Divinity into that small thing, a wafer. The wafer need be in one moment just a created object, and in the next moment divine, but at the same place of the altar. It is by time rather than by place, that we need know God is distinct from his Creation.
Seems a little weird that Jesus wants us all to achieve a blissful eternal life and he provides the means by which we can achieve eternal life. However, it takes a lot of work to understand what those means are and not everybody can or will be able to figure it out.
The answer for this question is on the biblen ..
No, actually, to millions of us it is elementary… the heart short-cuts all the intellectualizing and cleverness. A tennis player does not need to understand the Newtonian theory of the laws of gravity to play well. Natural talent is purely intuitive - childlike.
Theologians are like passengers on a speeding train fascinated by the machinery at work - but the true Christian just loves the journey and the incredible views…
I know this probably sounds glib, but I hope you get my point…
Christ is quite simply our God - and our final judge - whoever we are… The Son of God … and now as One with God. There is nothing more to know than to give thanks for this gift - repent of all the stupid things we all do - and rejoice with all our hearts… Show in our actions how we love our fellows here …
The Gospel stories are straight forward - Jesus shows is all the path and the Light to follow… Not many, sadly, will take it or make it - but this is not because of anything complicated at all… the very opposite,… according to what Christ says for all to read or hear… Most children get it at once.
@@matthewstokes1608 K
Don’t worry about it. All will be well.
Has this guy ever argued the problem of evil and suffering ? If so where?
Wow, he makes everything complicated!
Nothing but riddles.
I would struggle to summarise what he said as I really could see that much was said at all.
Should also invite prof Bart Ehrman to talk about the New Testament
See my book christ is within al version 3 on amazon.
1.5x
Staying pace with new science discoveries has these spiritual alchemists burning midnight oil. My, how preaching has changed in a few decades.
Yeah, those wretched evangelicals are going to pay for trying to take over the government. I used not to care whether Christians practiced their religion or not. Now I won't rest till this evil is stamped off the face of the earth with reason.
itsatz atheist lunatic above!! Wont you Take a gun and kill us all?
@@appalachiahiker853 You frickin idiot, I said "with reason," not with guns. Can't you read? Your bible is a frickin fairytale, grow up.
@@appalachiahiker853 probably has a brain, neurons on Sleep mode. Indoctrination does that. Awake, and join humanity.
Stardust Stardust humanity means 58 genders, transgenders performing with girls, pedophilia being legalised, poligamy, SJWs and marxists. Only a fool can be an atheist
I would say that we are in front of a kind of "christian agnosticism"
He is getting bold after the death of Chris. Hitchens.
I have a PhD in philosophy, and I have no idea what he is talking about.
20 minutes to say Jesus is 100% man 100% God….
If Christians heard a Muslim teacher as eloquent as Rowan Williams, they’d still reject his belief. I’m struggling with that. Under the beauty of his arguments still resides the troubling question: is there a God, or is it a man-made myth? Today’s conspiracy theorists have shaken my beliefs by showing me how vulnerable and gullible humans are to lies and myths.
Yes! They are what has shaken my beliefs too.
lean not on your own understanding ...
The unanswered question is ,why does the church continue to despise those in adversity, and praise all those not in adversity, the very opposite of Christ's teaching. Of course ministers are simply not brave enough so they stay as safe as they can.a d the work of god doesn't get done.so try the other space and trust in God.
The Kingdom of God is a state of awareness of the presence of God. How to acquire this state is what is missing and needed. Then all these abstract ideas that confuse ppl are not needed. The first becomes last and the last first. Theology is too intellectual and complicated. Ppl need the experience to understand.
Seeing as the vast majority of the people of the world are poor oppressed weak or mentally ill they are the church of god and our lord Jesus christ God's beloved,,and not the privileged church goers who have given themselves a monopoly on God they are a small minority who god does not know " go away "" says god
The problem with jesus christ is that he did not want to be personified as Jesus, and is the cause of many conflicts it was done on purpose for that reason. He was his Father's will only,and so we can only speak of the son of god.
I would say that Rowan Williams did not understand and misinterpreted Jesus.
I shall explain my thoughts by describing analogies, Evolution has developed the mentality of a hawk to kill and eat sparrows. Wolves evolved a mentality such that they would kill and eat sheep. The sensitivity and compassion levels of a hawk and a wolf are very low and so they do not feel guilty about killing and eating sparrows and sheep. Using our human sensitivity one would think that wolves and hawks should be educated not to kill and eat sheep, or sparrows, and the wolves and sheep and hawks and sparrows should learn to live together in peace in their own social gathering. No sparrow has the tools and the means to educate a hawk, and no sheep has the means and the tools and courage to educate a wolf.
Jesus was an intelligent sensitive person, and he noted the pains and sufferings of the people in Roman times. Rome was built on cruelty, and the people were maltreated with crucifixions and entertainment provided by the activities taking place in Coliseums, where people were killed by Gladiators and Tigers and Lions, Jesus had no hardware means of how to help those who suffered, and he had no armaments to fight against the Romans to persuade their Senators and their Ceasers to introduce compassion in their rulings. The only activity that Jesus could come up with was a sort of social psychology that would attract the attention of the Romans and make them feel guilty for what they do to others, while at the same time giving some faith and hope to those who suffered in pain and those who were to be killed so cruelly. This philosophy is not much different from how Workers' Unions operate in industries to better the situation of factory workers and at the same time raise awareness of the employers that they could treat their employees a little better as a human society must not be run as hawks killing sparrows and wolves killing sheep and feeding on them. In this respect, Jesus was the savior of the poor and the sufferers and claimed to be sent by God for a better impact on both the Romans and the Poor.
Jesus must have looked at History and realized that many people before him looked at all the Energetic powerful experiences, such as storms and thunder and lightning and erupting volcanoes and high wind disasters as being backed by common energy that he could tap for assistance. Jesus did not know what Energy meant, but he certainly felt it around him when storms and what was experienced at sea by the fishermen he mixed with. Jesus came up with an idea with which he could kill two birds with one stone, teach the Romans that there is a higher power than they had and give hope and faith to suffering people. It is said that between the ages of 12 and 30 Jesus went to India with his uncle who was a trader and there was a "free University" that Jesus could attend. (In India Jesus was called Isha Nath. Isha means lord (as in Ishwara). Nath means master, but it indicated that he was a member of the Nath Yogi Order (Sampradaya).)
Jesus thought to call the "Energy" behind the Phenomenon that created storms and other natural extreme behavior, " His Father Energy" whom he could call for assistance. Jesus proceed to call himself, " I am a son of God the Energy", Then he related that to " We are all made in the image of God they Energy". Jesus even said, " Use bread and wine as my body and my blood" which is mass related to God the Energy. Jesus resurrected after death to change mass into God the Energy.
Alber Einstein claims that his God could be expressed and transformed as E=- mc^2. James Clerk Maxwell showed how Electromagnetic energy thought of a God, can travel through space in the form of
Curl( Electric Energy) = d( Magnetic Energy)/dt, Barach Spinoza saw God as the energy in Nature around him, Tesla, Faraday, and Marconi all dealt with the power of Electromagnetic energy. All engineers can transform coal, oil, gas, and atoms into heat and steam energy and in turn, transform it into Electromagnetic energy to be launched into space through an antenna. All this is resurrecting coal and oil into energy. The sun's light rays fall on leaves and plants change into trees and sustain animals which sustain humans and all evolve while energy is in mass form. When living creatures die they all resurrect and are transformed back into energy normally electromagnetic energy.
If Jesus called Energy his father and so he was Energy as the son of his " Father " and so we are all sons of God".and we all can resurrect from mass to Energy after we die.
All this being heard by the Romans will instill FEAR in them, of some superpower coming over to take their Empir, while if such belief was projected to those who were poor and in pain and suffering, then they would have faith and hope rather than despair because of their incurable destinies.
Basically, Jesus meant to use the concept of the then-unknown ENERGY to frighten the incompassionate Romans and any cruel employer who run the slave trades through any part of history while at the same time the concept of the power of Energy would give faith and hope to those who had no straw to hang on when they are helpless in various situations.
Whatever Rowan Williams said about Jesus being related to God and other Spirits, which included physical as well as divine relations, was all contained in Albert Einstein's equation E= mc^2 where if we take E as an Electromagnetic wave which can be a resurrection or a transformation of mass into energy. We can also include James Clerk Maxwell who knew how Electromagnetic God could travel through space according to the relation Curl( Electric Energy) = d( Magnetic Energy)/dt,
The God that Jesus described was exactly the same Energy God that was accepted by Albert Einstein, James Clerk Maxwell, Baruch Spinoza, Tesla, Faraday, and Edison, It was the Energy that is enclosed in coal, oil, fuel, gas, electricity and all the electromagnetic fields that come out of an antenna or fall on a leaf to make it grow as mass where it could later be transformed, resurrected and reincarnated into another type of mass.
Jesus was referring to this Engineering God that is found in the Architecture of every Cathedral Church, ship, aircraft, home, and all the tangible and guaranteed items which help every family life a better life. It was in the last 250 years that the engineering and the mathematical fraternity understood the Electromagnetic Energy God that Jesus was referring to relating himself and all of us to " Our Father the Energy God". It was the Engineers who solved it all and not the philosophers of neither Popes nor Rowan Williams with all his confusing vocabulary delivered with perfect diction and the Queen's English depicting the old mytholg=ological gods as the Vikings and all the other religions in existence.
Jesus was mentally miles ahead of those around him and he had no choice but to talk in parables that most fishermen around him misinterpreted. as a blue sky God.
Note that Simon the Fisherman was never called Peter. When the Work of Mathew, Mark, John, and Luke was being translated from Hebrew to Greek, the work for Rock was Petra and so when Jesus said, " Simon you will be the Rock that I shall build my church on". The Greek scribes said that Simon became Peter, but in reality, Simon was never called Peter.
Also, Jesus never said, " I am the ( only) son of God". He said, " I am a son of God". God as Energy- mass- evolution- Energy transformation, resurrection, reincarnation explains it all.Ai 1:00:27 this Mass-Energy concept would explain how Bread and wine are related to the body and blood of Christ and an energetic concept. The fervor that Rowan Williams shows as a religious man is also shown by engineers who know what energy exists in materials and electromagnetic fields which consist of three phenomena which are, (E Electric Field), (H Magnetic field), and (P Poynting Vector), Williams should go and Understand James Clerk Maxwell and do it in silence and not in symbolic flowery language form in front of modern electronic cameras using electromagnetic fields. and their energy. God is a silent energy mass form where one finds him residing in and out of our homes in engineering products, and that covers almost everything we deal with.
This is strange. God is not an energy. God is a spirit. He is a holy spirit. And his name is Jesus christ. The son of God inherited his Holy name, Jesus christ as well. God is ever present in our lives but not always in our conducts except for those who honor him.
Mr. Rowan knowledge of Jesus christ is full of man made ideas and opinions and not according to the Bible.
If you want to hear more on who Jesus christ is, listen to pastor Gino Jennings on CZcams and listen to all his teachings.
@@leviticusemmanuel4421 Thank you for your comment. Yes, to conventional religious people it sounds strange, but to engineers who always deal in practical real terms, it is all real functions that exist all around us in Energy and mass form. The conventional spiritual God existed for a long time, but till 100 years ago most of the people on earth were poor, sick, slaves, and plagued and did not even have toilets and good health. Now the engineering God,, shaped in all the tangible guaranteed products found in and out of our homes, is what most of the people in all nations, and in all religions, prefer to host and live with. It is all Energy to mass- evolution then back to Energy transformations.
These are the steps that God followed in synchronism with the mentality of the people, through the ages
* The Powerful, Poetic, Perfect, Spiritual, Sonata God (0). This is a perfect spiritual absolute God that is not meant to be explained but only accepted, This is regarded as a gift, something extraordinary, the perfect kernel, the mystery to all solutions, and will remain always beyond our imagination. This God exists in our minds and in a space beyond the space and time of the universe we know. This God changes its existence in the mind of people and he is shaped according to the culture, and mentality of the individual. Many religions use rituals to symbolize this Poetic God, to impress people and they earn a good living by exploiting other people with inspirational speeches and writing books, where the belief is never guaranteed, but it certainly intoxicates the human mind. This Poetic God never appears in tangible guaranteed form for the material comforts of needy families but it earns a comfortable life for Evangelists and other preachers.
* The Energy God (1). This is Albert Einstein's God, and he is found in a form as described by both sides of the equation E= mc^2, where E is any type of Energy and m is mass and matter, and c is the velocity of light. This is a real God and can be transformed from Energy to matter which can 4evolve and then matter can be resurrected back to Energy. The velocity of light c suggests that we must account for light characteristics. In many holy books, one finds that it was said, " Let there be light and there was light!"
* The ElectroMagnetic God (2) may be a transformation of the Energy God (1) and makes up light, Radio and TV transmission, all electronics and electrical products found in and out of our homes, including mobile radion, internet and landing lobes in the airport and all communications system, in cables, transmission lines, and antenna. He is a good God and every modern home loves to host him rather than go and listen about the Poetic God (0) at any old Cathedral.
* The Engineering God (3) is a derived God from the Energy God(1) and the Electromagnetic God (2) This God(3) includes, mass and matter where all sorts of transformations and resurrections and reincarnations can take place, An antenna and a hot piece of steel can glow and radiate the Electromagnetic God(2) and the glowing metal can be shaped into washing machines, cars, airlanes ships, hospitals, communications systems, cathedrals, churches schools, hospitals and medicine, and surgical tools, and ultrasounds and MRI and X- Rays, artistic pieces, sewers, toilets, perfumes, music and rivers and forests and all nature with its engineering and biological life itself. The Electromagnetic God( 2) can fall on a leaf and a plant and a branch and a tree to change energy into the matter or the Engineering Biology God((3) where animals and humans evolve and grow, and any matter can die and change and resurrect back to the Energy God ( 1)
In all the above cyclical processes, many people prefer to think that it is all related to and all supervised by the Poetic God (0). who reside in a domain outside our universal space and time but also held within the boundaries of many human minds.
Whatever pastor Gino Jennings preaches on CZcams, he must relate, Jesus and man and God, to fit in somewhere in what was described above. If Jesus called the Energy God(1) his father, then, through Albert Einstein's discovery, that E= mc^2 and James Clerk Maxwell's relation that, Curl ( Electric)= d( Magnetic)/dt then, what sounds strange, is in fact related to what all religions depict in another language symbol. People in every land on earth now prefer to host in their home, the transformed and reshaped Energy God( 1) and its tangible and guaranteed home comforts, while they still enjoy the concept of a Poetic God(0), as the human mind cannot be only filled with material and realities, and a little Poetic language filling is good for the human souls and spirit.
@@carmelpule6954
Which planet are you writing from or staying ?
I admire your independence, imagination, energy, and thought processes. Keep it up!
Everyone should read Pilgrims Progress then you can spot the real way
So you believe in the "universe" do you? That's the only "verse" that is not found in the Bible! I believe in the Bible, not "science falsely so-called". For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness (1 Cor 3:19). I'm glad I have faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!
Ex-muslim here amen glory belongs to our lord n saviour jesus
Abadir Zulu Amen brother!!
I think this is more like University challenge then theological debate.I think Jesus is simple and does not need philosophical explanation.As Catholic sinner I believe Jesus founded a church called Catholic church.As I believe that Jesus founded that church untill the end of time,who would persuade me that his church would stop in 15 century,in order to find the reformed church.Did he by mistake give the keys to Peter?.I believe reformed church is not Divine will,but human will,because there is a big difference between Jesus himself without a sin,who founded the church,and a Catholic sinner named Martin Luther,who found the Protestant church.Anyway, the real love of Christ towards the world is missing here.
At 29:50-58, you say, "and how, strangely enough, John Calvin has a shot at putting this with clarity and with force." Why "strangely enough"? Because Calvin didn't normally talk with clarity and with force? I certainly understand that a great deal of what Calvin wrote was, at the very least, problematic. But the "strangely enough" does nothing but to throw shade on a fellow who, by grace, also got a lot of things right. This particular expression is a rather unfortunate back-handed, albeit slight, insult, and was quite unnecessary, in my opinion. Peace to you.
I suspect RW was referring not to Calvin but to the paradoxical strangeness of God showing up in the world as a homeless Nazarene trouble-maker executed under Rome for blasphemy and treason, and then returning from the dead in a series of even stranger resurrection appearances.
Jesus was probably a Buddhist monk. His teachings are very similar to Buddha. It was just presented in a different language. This would also explain why nothing was written about him after age 12 until age 30. He was probably in or near India during those years learning about the teachings of Buddha.
No. Jesus taught about personal relationship to the personal Creator, with the goal of everlasting perfection of individuals united to one another in fellowship with Him. As far as I know, Buddhism denies that the ultimate reality is a Person, and its aim is escape from suffering in the extinction of personal identity. It also tends, perhaps paradoxically, to promote isolation from others in pursuit of personal relief from suffering, rather than the Christian responsibility for helpfully sharing in the sufferings of others.
When you say, "probably a Buddhist monk" & "probably in or near India", are you using the word "probably" in the mathematical sense? If so, what are your calculations based on? If not, then what?
@@anselman3156 Absolute twaddle. When you say "helpfully sharing in the sufferings of others", are you talking about all the majority of humanity who were not indoctrinated to believe in jesus, in addition to the many billions who existed during the nearly 200,000 years before jesus was even claimed to have existed, and who you think are going to burn for eternity? Or were you talking about some other, more important, suffering?
@@onecardshort2934 You have made a false assumption about what I think.
@@onecardshort2934 My dear friend , What I posted is my opinion. I do not need to come up with a mathematical calculation for that. I also have no interests in getting into a debate with anyone on here.
Jesus is a creature?
That is old-school Nestorianism.
Whatever happened to “only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages… begotten not made….”?
Are we now throwing away the Creed, to which this lecture earlier referred?
Strictly speaking, Jesus' human nature (soul and body) is a creature, to which the God the Son united Himself in the Hypostatic Union. He is one divine Person, with a full divine nature and a full human nature. That's the ancient, orthodox, Nicene-Chalcedonian understanding.
@@Robb3348
The Word is eternal, and Jesus is eternally fully human and fully divine.
“Before Abraham was, I am.”
Jesus is not a creature.
If one starts talking about Jesus in that way, one must end up with a separation of his natures and ultimately two hypostases.
Rowan Williams himself has very articulately said that “the existence of Jesus is not an episode in the biography of the Word.”
It is why the Creed explicitly states “begotten not made”.
@@sophrapsune The crux of the Nicene doctrine is the ancient distinction between nature and person. In this philosophy, you for example are a human person (a unified subject of consciousness, will, and intellect), who possesses a human nature (consisting of a human body and a human soul). God the Father is a divine person, who also possesses a divine nature. Jesus is defined at Nicea as a divine person (God the Son), who of course possesses a divine nature, but who also chose to assume (that's a weight-bearing word!) the human nature called "Jesus of Nazareth"; thus He is one divine Person (a unified subject) possessing two natures. His human and divine natures are distinct and "unconfused," and yet ontologically united in the one divine Person, the second person of the trinity, God the Son, the eternal Word. So it is correct to say that Jesus' humanity is created (or a creature), which God the Son united to Himself (at Jesus' conception, or Mary's "fiat", which is why that moment is regarded with hushed awe in the tradition). The distinction between nature and person is unfamiliar to us moderns; one has to make an effort to understand the nuanced meanings of those two words. So for example, traditional orthodoxy held that Jesus is not a human person, yet he possessed a complete human nature. The creed is saying that *the Son* is "begotten, not made." It's not referring to Jesus' humanity. "Begotten, not made" is an explicit rejection of Arianism (which was the *raison d'etre* of the Council of Nicea). Arius held that Jesus was divine in some lesser sense, but not God *sensu strictu.* Jesus' human body did not exist before Mary's "fiat." The "I" who "am" before Abraham is God the Son, not the humanity of Jesus of Nazareth. Yet, the only one who said "I" when the human body of Jesus said "I" is God the Son; there is no human person there where Jesus is, but there is a complete human nature. That's hard to put together, yet that is the orthodox affirmation. The issue of how many wills Jesus has is a further, historically later elaboration of this theological conundrum. (Cf. the Wikipedia article on "monotheletism.") The whole point of the Nicene doctrine is to somehow hold Jesus' humanity and divinity in some kind of creative tension, without denying either. What I'm saying here is the traditional, orthodox catholic position. I'm not saying I agree with it, btw. You're probably familiar with the diagram showing that Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit, yet all three are God. So there is distinction of person between the Father and Jesus, yet they share the exact same divine nature (IOW Jesus' divinity is strictly equal to, nay identical with, the Father's divinity). This is also why it's not correct to say that the Father incarnated as Jesus, nor that the Father suffered on the cross (a heresy known as patripassianism). It's not even strictly correct to say that God the Son suffered on the cross; the divine Person is impassible (incapable of suffering); but Jesus' human nature suffered there. Again, this isn't how we moderns think, but it is how the ancient church formulated the issue. So when we moderns hear the orthodox formulation that "Jesus was not a human person," we react negatively, because we are thinking in the relatively sloppy, modern way of thinking about what "a person" is. Yet this definitely is what was taught in the ancient church councils. When Williams speaks of "nothing less than God," etc., he is referencing the work of Roger Haight, a contemporary Jesuit theologian, in his book "Jesus, Symbol of God." Haight is trying to get at what the ancients were saying with the Nicene formulation, while avoiding the "nature and person" vocabulary. Haight is saying that what orthodoxy is trying to get at when it asserts that Jesus is "true God," would be better put, in our contemporary terms, since we don't think terms of nature and person, by saying that "nothing less than God" was at work in Jesus' ministry. That's a much less robust claim, obviously! In evaluating how successful he was in being faithful to ancient orthodoxy, it's worthy of note that Haight was silenced by the Vatican for that book, and hailed by more liberal theologians.
@@Robb3348
As soon as one claims that “begotten, not made” does not refer to Jesus’ humanity, one has created two separate hypostases that become united in history. That is a Nestorian understanding, that the human Jesus is a creature in whom the Word dwelt.
The key, orthodox experience is that we know only one Christ, so to describe Jesus as a creature in whom the Word dwelt is foreign to the tradition.
There is one Christ with two natures, as you describe. We can only talk apophatically of the mystery of how those two natures relate, “unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, and inseparably”.
sanctimonious fella
the word you're looking for is "modest"
Rowan Williams needs to be born again.
John 3:3
I have always said that I am born again (1975). In my 40 years as a Christian I have read the Early Church Fathers and medieval scholastics. I have come to realize that evangelical Christianity is a simplified message of Christianity into a very thin theological system. "Believe in Jesus and be saved' is a modern Protestant misreading of the New Testament mostly because 'believe' and 'saved' are simplified into modern concepts that do not match the richness of the 1st century meanings. R. Williams' or NT Wright's books present deeper meanings of these terms more aligned with Paul of Tarsus, Iranaeus of Lyons, Gregory of Nyssa, Augustine of Hippo, and (yes) Thomas Aquinas.
@@VinceEcclesAre you a Roman Catholic?
I was a Roman Catholic for 36 years of my life before I became a Christian.
"Repent and believe the Gospel" - Jesus
@@CumbriaPreacher I was a Mormon in my youth. I became a traditional Christian and attended evangelical churches. I became discouraged in those churches and now read many ancient authors in Christianity including Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic. It had given me a broader understanding of our Christian heritage. There are crappy and good thinkers/believers/theologians in all the denominations.
@Stacy Caruso Jesus also hid divine truths from the wise & intellectual but revealed them to babes. This is apparent in this drawn out convoluted attempt at intellectualising the spiritual
1:21:05 to End.
I don't think it's your place to judge the faith of another or to create squabbles over petty things (Romans 14). He has a clear love for Jesus, and is doing the work of the Spirit.
I thought this was going to be something else... Was looking for KNOWledge. I am tired of presupposing things that are not evident.
Have you got some good suggestions for hearing about knowledge?
@@magnoliabird Depends on what you are looking for... I subscribe to the skeptic credo that anything asserted without appropriate evidence can be dismissed just as casually.
@@onecardshort2934 I subscribe to the feeling that there is an essence that is inexplicable and that is what I hold to. There are too many amazing mysteries - and turning everything to stale vanilla and boring nothingness just does not do it for me. I prefer the magical beautiful and divine.
@@magnoliabird Sorry I thought we were talking about knowledge. I was talking about knowledge. Feelings are something different, very important to humans I agree, but rather unrelated to knowledge.
One Card Short would you mind substantiating that credo with evidence?
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 18: 8-9. 34:54 minute mark.... Aren't these scriptures asking us to amputate?
9.53 A bad month for theologians, huh? A strange perspective for a Christian, one might think.
Well, you surely know what he means, right? It was a good month for Heavens, to welcome these children of God. But for those who remain down here, it's a loss, as they won't benefit their insight any more.
In light of the gospel, a 'bad month' is a pretty ridiculous idea. I mean if what Jesus said and meant is true... I have nothing but humorous pity for modern 'theologians'
I think there's a story of the Saint Aquinas (the ultimate theologian) murmuring as he passed that all he did was nothing.The gospel, taken seriously, hardly needs theology. But god bless them
Can't help but cringe a little at the start. A necessary evil I suppose: Upfront details on how to buy Rowan's book from St Paul's cathedral by card or cash. Jesus losing his temper and expelling traders from the temple?! I'm sure someone can explain that the biblical story is not a parallel here but it spoils my (unrealistic I suppose) purist vision. He's a great presence though (Rowan that is)
not Jesus?? hahaha jk
he dont even have a bible doe
And yet he references passages throughout. He has memorized, lives and breathes Scripture.
I have listened to many of his lectures he has one of the best voices ever. and he has perfected the art of rhetoric he says absolutely nothing well. He never answers the questions he is asked and he totally gets away with it.
He answers the questions with a carefully measured and nuanced language to ensure there is no misunderstanding if you follow what he is saying. He does not give simple answers in most situations, because there are not many simple answers to the questions he is asked, and there are not many simple answers to the questions he himself asks.
He gives a very straightforward answer at 1:13:00, and if you really listen, I think you will note that he provides as many possible answers and clarifications as he can with every response to every question he is asked.
@@mtg6792 the reason I said he didn’t answer the question is because Jesus and the Christ are two separate individuals and he doesn’t know that and he should. He misquotes all the scriptures he mentions when he mentions one he doesn’t know that Paul is not an apostle and the list goes on. Let’s take the subject Who is the Christ. The word itself means Anointed turn to John 16: 1-14 here you will see the Christ Jesus sends him in to the earth he is also known as the spirit of truth. Let’s see it again in Matthew 23:8-9 Jesus is the master and lord of the Apostles but he adds in one more person when he said Even Christ And so there is no misunderstanding between Jesus and the Christ and God he then said call no man your father because you have one father who is in the Heaven. You should now see all three Jesus and the Christ and God
Now if that’s not enough turn to 2nd Esdras 7:28-29 and you will see Jesus first comes and brings in his saints then after 400 years then his son Christ will die and come into the earth. You should see it Now. But if not there is more. Ever wonder why Jesus Road into Jerusalem on a donkey and pulled behind him a colt with no one on it? He was telling you there is someone else besides him to come. This person is the Christ. And he is on the earth right now in hiding. I gave you but a few scriptures there are more many more. I’ve just taught you more than the Archbishop knows. Ask and you will find. Get the King James 1611 Bible with all the books in it then read it in the mind set of the ancient writers not in the mindset of today read Isaiah 28: 9-10 precept upon precept Line upon line meaning in reverse they way it was meant to be read not line over line the way we read it. And the book will start to open itself up to you. I will show you one last thing turn to Matthew 24:5 for many will come in my name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many. Now I’ll show you the meaning. Many false apostles will say they are sent into the world by Jesus and they will say that Jesus is the Christ and this will be the deception because Jesus is not the Christ- the spirit of truth is as we read in John 16:13 and this spirit of truth when he comes will show you all the things you need to know to gain life it’s him that will set you free not Jesus- now turn to John 8:32 and you will know the truth and he will set you free. For more deeper understanding you can read the coming Chastisement by Yves DuPont. And the Great French monarch - this man is also the Christ the Christ like Jesus has many names he is also the Angel of the church of Philadelphia read Revelations 3:7-10 you will see it’s he this Angel that gets the Crown of the world not a Jesus as Jesus is ruler from the Heavens and he is not coming back to earth to rule it he is giving that over to the Spirit of Truth, Philadelphia, AKA The Anointed one the Christ. Read it all in the proper context. Then you will start to see.
unanswered questions? ye of little faith.
I lost mine by holding the bible up to critical scrutiny.
@@onecardshort2934 Whose critical ideas did you submit to? Might they be held up to critical scrutiny?
@@anselman3156 "Critical ideas", what does that mean? "Submit"? I didn't use that word. I critically scrutinize all of the theories that I come across to one degree or another. It makes a big difference when the source is credible, of course. Do you just believe what people tell you without question?
@@onecardshort2934 I was just wondering if you had taken on board the views of others who proposed their own "critical scrutiny". It is unlikely that any of us is entirely detached and uninfluenced by others in our evaluation of things. Of course, I do not just believe what people tell me without question. People are very unreliable and even deceptive, especially when challenging the revelation of God in the Bible.
@@anselman3156 Part of the deal is if a claim is not evident, you need to check the facts for yourself. If the person or source making the claim does not provide credible evidence, the person or source lacks credibility. Also, if a source is demonstrated to be consistently false over and again, one has every right (and duty) to dismiss it out of hand. Have you not read your bible?
The comments though... YES his accent, diction and cadence make him lovely to listen to. His appreciation for, and elevation of man’s capacity is nice. However, do words not have meaning? He tries to conflate God with His chosen Messiah, when anyone reading the Canon of Scripture will realize that God and His Son are (2) distinct persons.
there is no answer when asked if jesus is god? according to the bible
He can't speak in simple everyday language like jesus parables. These intellectual theological minded people have no understanding of paul preaching with the power of the holy spirit.
Fake bishops can only proclaim a fake jesus.
The Anglican Church is just so dead. If they were trying to be more irrelevant. I don’t think they could do a better job.
I have an unanswered question How can anyone seriously believe this fairytale?
itsatz People much smarter then both of us. Find this to be more then just a Fairy tale. So qiibble with them.
@@jeremywilliams3465 Maybe they are lying to you so you'll give them money?
itsatz My church douse not ask for my tieth to go to them but just that I tieth. The Good The True and The Beautiful are much harder to find with a material world view often as a substitute you get the abserd in it's place. I would say that the Christain worldview at best intagrates the Imagination and Reason.
@@jeremywilliams3465 I'd say the Christian world view is to give up facing reality.
@black leaves That's the human dilemma, isn't it? Each one of us, when it comes to our thoughts and feelings, is completely isolated from everyone else. Words don't bridge the gap, Poetry may come closer, but still falls short. I'm also aware of the physical reality that all matter is made of energy and solidity is an illusion. But there are fundamental forces out there that you can be sure of. Like pain. You can philosophize all your want, but if you are in pain you have no choice but to alleviate it. It is real.
Incomprehensible mumbo jumbo!
A Female bishop? Tsk tsk.
ikr
Lot of talking. Nothing said
What a terrible subject theology is. Always speculating about everything and never knowing anything ...
This lady is the worst
I think someone forgot to tell him.it is about Christ, and not him. He is oozing arrogance
One more thing if he needs to preach he should remain in a church. His presence on the campus is an abomination since it is a place of learning and teaching not relegious activism