Orchestration Tip: How (not) to Destroy the Percussion Section
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- čas přidán 26. 02. 2020
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Conductor:
Please light the entire stage on fire
Percussionists:
We’ve been preparing for this moment
:D
I just finished my concerto for ball bearings on a marimba, and NOW you tell me!
Have you seen mozart's ball bearing concerto in A major?
Lynnlo Don’t you mean Clarinet Concerto in A?
Yes. I especially like the way the trumpeters shoot ball bearings at the audience.
@@caterscarrots3407 What's the difference? ;)
ajtheown Well, I’m pretty sure that Mozart wouldn’t score for ball bearings.
As a percussionist, thank you so much! Everything you said was spot on. Timpani mallets on cymbals is a classic example bad arranging. Luckily, any percussionist that knows anything about anything will find a substitute. Your point about us being the ones to find the sound is also really important. There's just too much variation in instruments, playing technique, etc. for any extended technique to work perfectly everywhere.
Thanks so much for your kind comment, Mattheas! Great to be backed up by a pro!
Completely agree. Played a piece that called for striking a suspended cymbal with our rosewood claves. Lol yeah right, a thick stick will (and did) work just fine.
You will be surprised about the ignerentsys of my percussion section!!!!
This video also made me think about Michael Colgrass’ Winds of Nagual. The vibraphone part calls for some interesting mallet choices that need to be ignored, I find this interesting because Colgrass was a percussionist, though from a different time
@@SeanLaMontagne lol that's very strange
Percussionists does the job of 2 to 4 musicians.
Nobody would request the 2nd violins to play for some bars cello instead, but the percussionist can do 4 bars of vibraphone, 1 bar timpani, 1 bar tambourine, 4 bar bongos, 4 bar xylophone etc.
Rob F or if it’s Maslanka, all of the above at the same time
@@Butternades A good organ player plays with his feet two parts and with each of both hands two parts.
Pit orchestra woodwinds would beg to differ.
Years ago, at the Centre Beaubourg in Paris, France, I heard a performance of an extended work for solo percussionist by composer Nguyen Thien Dao. The whole stage was covered with percussion instruments, and the player walked from instrument to instrument as the score demanded, often having to play several at once. The composer was present, speaking about the work beforehand. At the conclusion of the performance, which was stunning, the thrilled composer came onstage and embraced the player, kissing him on both cheeks. The player looked exhausted -- that was a _lot_ of work! I wish I could hear it again!
that's not what I meant by cymbal "roll"
...or a cymbal "crash" :)
The climax of the final movement of George Crumb's _Ancient Voices of Children_ calls for a _ffff_ stroke on a tam-tam with a chime mallet. In the performance of this work in which I participated (as pianist), the percussionists decided that the resulting sound was so incredibly ugly to their ears that they chose to use a more standard mallet. Years later, I came across a video in which a professional percussionist explains tam-tam techniques, and among other things warned that using too hard a mallet could actually break the gong. So, in a comment, I brought up the Crumb example, and asked him how he thought it should be treated. He seemed surprised at hearing about what Crumb specified, then suggested trying using something other than the chime mallet, and experimenting to find what would give the desired effect.
Bad sheet music: Drop your cymbals and kick the timpani
Me: wut, I'm not even a percussionist
Fun fact, asking us to teleport across the section is also a nono.
Not quite orchestral percussion but this past drum corps season saw me playing drumset and auxiliary percussion. I had a rack set up with a bass and tam tam behind me. Then bedside me was the drumset. It took at least a measure to get between the two. The person arranging our percussion did not care about this and merely decided “he’ll figure something out” many times I simply had to switch what instrument something was played on, a tambourine part was revised to a chopper part on drumset, a bass hit became a kick and Toms hit. Some of these didn’t fit as well as others, he should have thought of that if he wanted that sound. Other times my life was not so easy and it saw me dashing back and forth between the two, launching myself off the chair with a mallet in hand in time to get to the bass drum, or maybe I could be seen holding a fuckload of stuff so I could drop it a measure later after I used it once, fourmallet grip with two mallets, a drum stick, and a bass beater, or me standing with a slide whistle in my mouth, and a slapstick in my hand. That one cause a safety concern for some of the staff but I made sure it was fine. Please composers, don’t do this to your percussionists. Take into account how many instruments a sane person can be in charge of and have around them, ergonomically it doesn’t work to have a marimba part with a shitload of aux parts as well requiring a table, just write a marimba part, and an aux part, or give them time to switch between instruments
The only reason I don't mention that here is because I cover this in the first book - but it bears repeating.
I personally also know that most places/venues don't give percussionists crazy much room. So even technically playable things become impossible, if we have to squeeze past 2-3 people in a matter of few bars. We sometimes get to move smaller instruments between pieces (i.e. in one piece I use the triangle or piatti and in the next another person), but its always a "fun" headache
Was a bit hard to concentrate on your words because Bartók is just so freaking awesome
Some composer's requests are a bit like "Dear Cello player, tune it like a viola. Have fun with the broken neck."
It is also a great idea that composers learn how instruments are actually played, even from an elementary level. When you know how instruments are played and what is possible (even winds and strings), you have a better idea of what is acceptable practice and even is capable (incorrect ranges of keyboards).
Literally everything you said about keyboard percussion, specifically how to handle instruments with wood bars...
Thank you
Basically unless you wanna damage a near $30,000 instrument in one performance, don't do anything "innovative" with it beyond yarn/rubber mallets. If you need it to cut, move it to Xylo.
Sean LaMontagne most mallet instruments unless either unique (and vintage) or one offs never go much higher than 20k. And those are only marimbas. Vibraphones top off at 10k and xylophones 5k. Unless you count keyboard glock and celesta which are not even played by percussionists. BUT I 110% agree with the sentiment of the message because they are so fragile. Nothing hurts me more than seeing resonators played on
@@Flar3on12Gaming
You could easily spend 30 grand on a 6 octave marimba. However I don't know of any schools that own such a rare version of the keyboard.
Sean LaMontagne many of those are custom one off instruments of which I excluded in my comment. No mass manufacturers make 6 octave instruments. Planet marimba (an amazing company you should check out!!!) makes many 6 octaves cheaper than 15k (price of a regular 5). Bass marimbas could however easily cost 30 grand. But are exceedingly rare
These are excellent notes for any composition student who's thinking of using extended techniques. Case in point- even the piano is more delicate than one might imagine. When I was an undergrad composition student, a classmate and friend of mine Craig Walsh, wrote and performed a piece for prepared piano. It was fantastic, (side note- it was called "Black Scissors" and I think you can even google it and listen to it!) anyway, we were all impressed. But afterwards, THE DEAN sent out letters to the whole school saying that we were NOT to, FOR ANY REASON, "prepare" a piano "a la John Cage." Apparently, after the piece was done, the screws and nails he put in the piano strings and whatever else he did to alter the striking action of the piano gave much agida and chagrin to some poor piano tech.
I am a percussionist and a composer, I WANT TO DIE FROM WATCHING THIS!!!
my "fellow" percussionist from my school should watch this because most of them don't know what there doing!!!!
Aaaug!!!!
Don't die. We need more percussionists like you. :)
@@OrchestrationOnline thanks
The timpani mallet one is not so bad when you make and wrap your own mallets. At one point, I started using rubber tipped mallets on cymbals where the tips were door stopper balls. Another one would be aluminium tipped mallets wrapped in cord, which were made out of drawer knobs and the list goes on.
Some of the bad techniques you mention make me wonder if some composers are more interested in being shocking and edgy than in creating actual art.
Maybe a small few, but mostly it's just lack of information.
@@OrchestrationOnline That is a very fair assessment and kind rebuke of my own silly basis. ^_^
ballroomscott you were just suggesting what the video made things seem like. No biggie
As a percussionist and composer, thank you so much for this video.
As an orchestrator and educator, you're very welcome! I appreciate your feedback very much.
A percussionist for "West Side Story" used the drum stick for xylophone.
Rob F it be like that in musicals honestly. Musicals have some of the worst challenges from an ergonomics and technique standpoint. You gotta cram everything and do Stevens grip with a bass beater two mallets and a drumstick, or hit the xylo with a drumstick
@@captainkiwi77 Nobody would request a cello player to play violin for some bars and change back. Or the piano player to change between piano and harpsichord
@@robfriedrich2822
In orchestral pieces, the keyboardist always plays both piano and harpsichord if both of the instruments are not being played at the same time.
I love how just wacky percussion can get and stuff you might have to do.
TL:DR Striking an instrument with a material that is harder than the instrument (or striking surface) will cause damage
As a percussionist, thank you. Thank you, thank you!
playing something in band right now where the gong player has to dunk the gong in water
Did something similar with a steel plate, so not as daring. But still having an open water near the rest of the equipment was nerve racking nonetheless.
Are you by any chance in 2nd hours gms
@@vidkid1067 nah
for anyone interested, it's electricity by brian balmages
jocab henke THATS the same song the other hour (that I’m not it) played for their band festival (that’s why I asked if you were in that band). I asked before the festival but it was Thursday and their band as well as mine got all 1s.
Very useful video, thank you Thomas!
😮
I simply am unable to believe composers are asking for the examples cited in this video: maddening!
I can't tell if some of this is satire - who the hell came up with the idea to drop metal ball bearings on a mallet instrument?!?!
They get dropped on other percussion instruments, so it is only a matter of time before someone gets the bright idea if it hasn't happened already.
OrchestrationOnline my studio professor, xylophonist Susan Powell has a piece written for prepared xylophone, and while it doesn’t use ball bearings, it’s not entirely different, however she and her husband who play the piece “build a better mousetrap” are both professionals
It always makes me (a timpanist) really upset when people put ANYTHING on the timps
Im in school orchestra. And the students dont know what this instrument is about. I had whole bags on the timps and one player put his shoes on a cymlbal.
@@mr.dizini5586 usually when its small things, it just irritates me, but when full bags are on the timps? That actually damages them because the weight will warp the head of the timpani
Tympani: Music's natural beer coaster.
Thomas, could you do a video on percussion ensembles? The difference in tone and the strengths and weaknesses of the percussive sounds as opposed to an orchestra? My percussion ensemble arranged Holst's Mars, with mixed results and I would be interested in your take on arranging for such a sound.
Thank you for the tip about not using timpani mallets with cymbals. I have actually done this, because it makes a nice soft sound, but not that often and I've never noticed any damage to the mallets or fuzz on the cymbals. Nonetheless, I won't be doing it anymore.
I've recently expanded into percussion and what I hadn't realized is how quietly it's possible to play it and timpani mallets are great for this. I can play in the middle of the night without disturbing my neighbours without any kind of practice dampers. Of course, you can't really let loose in that case. On the other hand, they do say that the only thing worse than a bass solo is a drum solo.
3:37 this is interesting, because Danzón timpanists constantly hit the shell as part of the traditional Danzón patterns. Then again, I suspect Danzón Timpani are made to be hit that way
I love you man!
State your intentions and then let the musician figure it out! So much of this advice applies for the organ as well.
We need an Orchestration Online for the rest of music - somebody who teaches harmony, counterpoint, etc. in this same manner.
See Alan Belkin for Harmony and Counterpoint. He also has some great writings on orchestration.
Thank you
In one of the bands that I play at, never had any problems. Then I joined another band, and they have timpani mallets for cymbals. Quickly found out that they don't live long compared to the yarn mallets in the other band.
I appreciate this. I don't want to pay for more equipment
I’d really like if commercially available scores came with a separate percussion score such that the percussion section could see easily which parts fit together/contrast/etc. rather than having a separate percussion 7 part with 2 triangle hits on it. Aside from safe and non-damaging playing techniques... there are lots of things I’d like to see with percussion composition. Like percussion 1 is usually bass and snare while percussion 2 is usually cymbals and aux instruments... but there’s no consistency in part distribution and often no indication of the expected number of players. Sometimes percussion 4 will randomly have parts only playable by 3 people while percussion 2 might be just a single player... why? Who would write like that on purpose? It drives me nuts.
In extended works, I regularly make both full percussion scores and separate parts for stands. That way the principal percussionist can decide who gets to hit what when a lot easier.
OrchestrationOnline I would love that. Never seen it, but that’s awesome. As a percussion educator I’m constantly irritated by the way parts divided vs how many percussionists it takes to cover them.
@@OrchestrationOnline
That is the standard for marching band field shows.
5:24 Have you heard of Wintergaten's Marble Machine?
Martin uses a vibraphone (metal bars instead of rosewood or padauk bars), and also has a silicone layer planned for the bars on the MMX.
Thank you for your extremely useful video! However, I cannot find an example of someone playing the underside of a snare drum...would you know where I could find a recording.
Check out live performances of Scheherazade or other pieces with very soft snare playing. This is a technique that's occasionally used for clarity at low volume.
OrchestrationOnline I've not seen this technique used for sheherazade yet. If you did that in any of the European orchestras you'd probably get kicked out.
Literally every middle school band class
:D
Great video! What's the piece that sounds starting at 2:39?
(fire a gun at the timpani)
😂
(fire a nerf gun at a drumset… wait… czcams.com/video/NazMW7viG5M/video.html )
Ha... pretty sure my conductor told the entire room that the percussionist should destroy their instrument while playing...
Just so long as the conductor is willing to buy new ones after every rehearsal and concert.
Tchaikovsky : Just use a canon
2:26 the shining
I ve played cymbal rolls with timpani sticks (because we dont have any cymbal soft sticks) and they have never been destroyed by that. Can you explain, why they would? Isnt the surface of cymbals kind of smoth?
I do explain why in the video. The metal surface grabs at the fabric of the beater, rough or smooth. Eventually the wrapped core of the beater can crash. This has been the experience of the many percussionists I've consulted. If it hasn't happened yet, then it may, so watch out. Check out some of the pro percussionist's comments below, they back me up on this.
frisbee cymbal, got it
that intro
Heeeeeeeres' johnny
hi. will you discuss how to notate a suspended cymbal? Or if anyone knows how and using musescore?
I can't really help you for musescore, but as a percussionist, we really appreciate when composers precisely specify what they want for cymbals : suspended cymbals, crash or splash cymbal..
That thunder maker has a drum head, so i will play it with sticks.
Yes, i'm a drumset drummer
It means I can't ask the timpanist to use a clarinet as a stick to play tunes?
Of course not! The metal keys might damage the heads of the timpani.
Those images of broken instruments hurts
Love the video, but for next time can the text not be in super-italicized script? It's super uncomfortable to read- great video, though!
That's only during the opening summary of the tip, and I read out the words aloud. It's just a style thing I used for this run of a half-dozen orchestration tip videos before the release of the book. By the next time I make tips like this, I'll probably have a completely different format.
7:00 - I thought bass drums were untuned?
ALL drums are tuned. Some drums are unpitched. There will only be a vague sense of tuning, but it's there.
Untuned 30 inch and untined 18 inch still sound differently 'untuned' relatively ;)
To add to what Thomas said, the overtones present with untuned drums get so muddled that the fundamental pitch is indecipherable and thus gives the illusion of having no pitch. Tuning such drums will still alter the fundamental pitch, but it will be almost impossible to recognise it
Drums should always be tuned, in fact, that's what those notches around the head are for, you use a drum key to tune them
@@Snavels gotta give them lugs a good turnin
Yet here I am, the immature percussionist who still finds it funny that a stick has a butt and that there is a part of the snare drum called a butt flap.
I have done most of these things and my instruments are completely fine
Define "most." Dropped, slammed, or rolled cymbals across the stage, hit them hard with metal beaters, rolled on them for prolonged periods with proper timpani sticks? Dumped ball bearings over a marimba, or heated it, splashed it, gouged the tonebars by scraping, hit them over and over with hard mallets? Played hard on snare bottoms? Hit a concert bass drum fff dead centre? That is mostly what I talk about.
OrchestrationOnline I have hit cymbals with beaters and rolled with timpani mallets I have also hit the shells of timpani and hit bass drum dead center fff
@@maxhoff7063 So you've done three of these things, not most. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate alternate perspectives - but you should know that pretty much every pro percussionist I consulted would avoid any request such as I mention here. I'm working to make scores better for all percussionists, as I really don't want your gear to get screwed up by clueless demands.
I... was expecting comedy...
Yeah, same
I have honestly never used percussion instruments besides tympani(unless piano would count as percussion). I'm more likely to add a piano than a marimba for instance. Still a percussive attack and still the glissando possibility, but with no real fear that "Oh no, I've notated it wrong" or whatever. As for bass drum, I use the tympani for a similar role sometimes, giving a fortissimo punch to the orchestra. The tympani is less likely to break from a fortissimo strike. In fact, I have seen a few cases of the tympanist sort of mirroring the conductor's fortissimo gesture, bringing both of their hands to one side as they rise and then bringing them down with a lot of force to where it needs to be struck.
Snare drum? Again, sometimes I get across something similar in the tympani by getting the strikes up to trill speed or being very rhythmic. Cymbals and gong? I'm just afraid they will drown out the orchestra so I don't use them. Triangle, similar but in reverse, I'm afraid the orchestra will drown out the triangle so I don't use it.
Triangle, glockenspiel and other small bell-like instruments cut through much more than you would think. Cymbals and gong won't overpower a fortissimo brass section, but yes at their loudest you'd never hear a flute underneath.
All percussion instruments can be played at quieter dynamics than ff of course
Hey there Caters, you need to do a lot of score-reading and not be so worried. It's easy to get distracted by all the thematic instruments, not pay attention to the rhythmic elements, and then not be sure what to do with your own percussion scoring. But there's so much great music out there. Start with the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings Percussion, and Celesta. Both those pieces have extremely involved percussion parts you can learn from, and they're both available on IMSLP.
You're underestimating us percussionists :)
You really only need to worry about damage if you're asking for extended techniques. If you stick to typical usages, you'll be fine. You can find a lot of this information on youtube, and I'm sure there are orchestration books that do a good job discussing it as well.
Honestly, a big part of your problem is that you don't really seem to understand the difference in various percussion instruments. Bass drum and snare drum aren't filling the same role as timpani. They are each very different instruments with a wide range of timbres and applications. For just one example, think about the frequencies they deal with. Bass drum is arguably the lowest voice in the entire orchestra, although this depends on the instrumentation and the drum. Timpani sites in the range of the human bass voice (which isn't that low considering that tuba and double basses will often go an octave underneath this). Snare drum fills up the high frequencies. If timpani playing a roll is intense, imagine the three of them together!
In terms of your balance issues, percussionists will to manage that on their own. Every instrument you stated has a huge dynamic range. Even if you tell me to play a ff cymbal crash, I might still play it at mf if I or the conductor think that ff is too much.
Thank you