Is This Even Music? John Cage, Schoenberg and Outsider Artists
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- čas přidán 10. 04. 2019
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What is music? From John Cage to Legendary Stardust Cowboy, avant-garde artists have forever been pushing on the edges of what is considered music. Composers like Arnold Schoenberg, Harry Partch and outsider musicians like The Shaggs are constantly changing music.
Hosts Nahre Sol and LA Buckner examine the space between music and not music and create an original composition - but is it music?
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For those of you who are curious about how EXACTLY L.A. and I interpreted "SOUND FIELD," here is the overly specific answer:
L.A. used a lot of shape-based interpretation of each letter with his phrasing, dynamics, and sound. I think he relied on geometric direction to guide how he interpreted each part of the letters.
For my part (FIELD), I used pitches F and D, and interpreted the I as a cluster (on the score, a cluster looks like an I). I repeated ideas in 3 a lot because of how the E has three horizontal lines. And I also used minor thirds because the L has a 90 degree angle, which is 1/4 of 360 degrees. Based on that I divided an octave into quarters, which gives you a minor third. I used prepared piano/extended techniques as a tribute to Cage and other composers mentioned.
Thanks for watching the episode!
Very nice! I always think these kind of hyper-specific representations of a certain idea are really cool because they give a window into how the person (or persons, in this case) actually think about and interpret what they perceive. Thanks for sharing. :)
😊
this would work definitely work as composition! Like what I heard, tnx
Great episode yet again! I wish you talked a bit about how Schoenberg saw himself as CONTINUING the Romantic tradition of Beethoven through Mahler (as opposed to Cage who was breaking away from tradition purposefully). While his harmonic language is new his rhythms/sense of drama/formal structures are firmly in classical traditions.
so can we hear it?
My favourite John Cage quote is “music never stops, only the listening”. Not only does it re-centre listening as a creative act, it helps bypass the usually unproductive question of “is this even music?!” and get to more insightful questions like “if we pay attention to this as music, what can we learn and feel?” One slight quibble: by Schoenberg’s time, classical audiences would have been aware of music that had already moved a long way beyond Mozart’s tonality. Brahms, Liszt, Debussy and Wagner had started to leave older ideas of tonality behind, and Stravinsky was going further. True 12-tone serialism was still massively shocking, but not nearly so much as it would’ve been in Mozart’s time!
How in the world is it music?
Really tell me what am I missing here?
In one video he just clicks the timer and opens and closes a tiny egg shaped box a few times. Where is the art or the tune, the melody, the effort, the performance, the appeal, the cadence, anything. It is just daily noise you hear.
How is a truck engine not music?
@@dr.rebuttal3009 My man ask the real question here.
@@segmentsAndCurves which real question?
@@dr.rebuttal3009 The last question in that comment.
Whoa, never thought I'd see the day someone on the Internet discussed John Cage without bringing up (and usually exclusively focusing on) 4'33" 😂
Snark aside, y'all are making some really interesting and thought-provoking stuff here! Thanks for sharing with us all!
Good snark...But I like the fact that they skipped the obvious- Or maybe that's what you were saying in the first place ;)
@NEARMUSICBEATS Are you referring to 4'33"? It's Cage's most famous (or infamous) piece. 4 minutes and 33 seconds where the pianist plays nothing. It is a long (musical) rest.
@Trikeman728, Good point, too often Cage's vast contributions to music are eclipsed by all the focus on 4'33".
I was looking for this comment. I wonder why they didn’t include it?
@@emileconstance5851 "Vast"? You seemed to be referring to Cage but used a phrase more appropriate for Walter Piston. Cage was a "composer" minus the first 3 letters.
John Cage references Immanuel Kant in an interview saying “There are two things that don’t have to mean anything, one is music, and the other is laughter.”
Cage’s views were so ahead of his time, but he’s as much of a pioneer in music as Bach, Beethoven, or Mozart.
I friend of mine who did a dissertation on John Cage told me that I talk like he did. Ever since then, the water walk has made SO much sense to me. I find myself cooking, washing, and drying up like him walking around a stage with the stopwatch. He wants everyone to just chill out and stop having expectations of anything. Those psychedelic drugs, man.
John Cage is the man who saved my life and sparked the musical endeavor I'm currently on.
Cool!
Same here..
I started the VRAI project around a year ago(which is what my channel is) and is basically an art project I use to practice composing (so expect alot of half baked ideas lol),but it is very helpful and provides a secondary output for my ideas without the pressure of well trimmed and refined compositions ,which I am constatly working towards.I actually started learning about music first with many experimental 20th century composers and only learned about classical music and western practice after the fact ,so appreciating experimental music almost comes natural to me.
How?
@@dr.rebuttal3009 4:33 of silence made him realize he is an idiot
Thanks for Discussing Cage's work and philosophy without just reducing him to 4'33"! Love the callback to Cage/Harrison with the ending as well.
czcams.com/video/EMtX-P8EuEw/video.html
0:45 Arnold Sch... *NO WAY* ...oenberg *oh, ok*
I don't get it.
Superphilipp I didn’t get it either haha.
Google Arnold Schwarznegger I guess
Get to the choppa!
What killed the dinosaurs? The Ice Age!
For those of us on autism spectrum, outsider music is not quite jarring at first listen. We might be weird at first but I feel that plays a role in what our tastes/interests are. My definition is music is universal, most things can be musical.
I agree with Edgar Varèse - "Music is organized sound."
@FinnRiffs Official Channel Yes that is true. He and I discussed Varése one time.
@FinnRiffs Official Channel Yes. When I lived in L.A. I was working a concert video of his. Spent several hours at his home. We talked about things (besides the project), things such as - music, the “Black Page”, great avant-garde composers, his studio that he was re-wiring and things like how the manuals to his new Synclavier are the size of two NY phone books. A demanding and very business like approach. I’m a composer/musician and I gotta tell you he can be one intimidating dude. Fun Fact: When he went upstairs for dinner he put on “Baby Snakes” for me to watch and asked Moon to bring me down a fresh cup of coffee.
It's more specific, Music is the purposeful creation and corralling of sound in meter. Of those 5 criteria, only the last is required for music to occur: meter. Without a beat, we do not recognize an attempt to communicate with music.
@@scran "Noise" can easily be musical....so long as it occurs within the context of a beat. Without a beat, the average person has no ability to frame the noise as music.
It's the same problem Cages 4'33" has. Perform it as a solo vocal piece on a street corner and no one will have a clue you're attempting to make music. They'll just think you're standing there waiting for someone, or whatever. I fixed this with a variation a few years ago by adding the performance note "The intended audience must be given the opportunity to discern the beat, throughout."
For the performance on the street corner, this could be accomplished by tapping your finger against your leg. Some of the people walking by will notice you're tapping your finger and most people seeing that would assume you're thinking about music - at which point you're both thinking about music and the ambient sound around you becomes part of the performance, which is what Cage intended but didn't pull off. And that can only happen because of the beat.
@@bwacuff169 I really don't think meter is necessary. Plenty of music is written without any markings for tempo or ryhthm's. And much music has no discernable pulse. Say you were to listen to one of those soundscapes for sleeping, it's just a single chord that changes harmony and texture at arbitrary intervals, is that not music?
Even this episode on outsider music is rather "outsider", not as palatable as say "how the Trap sound is formed" or "what makes a song sad." Way to challenge the status quo in music education! Onward and upward!
oh you included the Shaggs, you are awesome. outsider music forever. for me outsider music is the opportunity to say screw all the rules, i don’t need to be a virtuoso, i just need ears and ideas. and that is very freeing creatively, it takes a lot of pressure off and can reintroduce the idea of “children’s play” back into the joy of making music, which is so important to creativity, but is often lost at the first hurdle of scales practice.
Well ideas. Ears. Who needs ears.
Why draw lines when you can draw dodecagons?
XD
Suvi-Tuuli Allan
Or dodechohedrons?
Suvi-Tuuli Allan
Or dodecahedrons.
dogecoins
How about Dodecadragons
My pal's name is foot foot
(foot foot)
Who are parents..?
@@MreenalMams i am parents!
oh "where can my foot foot be?"
Yes, that's what I'm here for. XD (Not for Schönberg)
The amazing thing for me about this whole journey you guys take with this is the fact that you break down sound... not just music, or the culture or any other specific focus on the phenomenon of sound. You creatively not only package but also explore sound, as artists...
Thank you so much for this.
How perfect that today my favorite PBS Digital Series, Sound Field, mentions a band I've shared with everyone since my English teacher in high school first gave me a cassette of The Shaggs' Philosophy Of The World #mypalfootfoot. Keep up the great work Nahre & LA, love the series!
we are so honored to be your favorite! wow. Also, huge fans of The Shaggs
....I love this channel so much. I mean. You HAD me at the invention of Funk, but now you're touching down on Outsider music and John Cage?
I was fondly reminded of other times composers pushed the boundaries of what music was considered to be at the time, using nonstandard musical instruments. Mahler's 6th Symphony, Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture (with actual cannons) and Wagner's Forging Song from Siegfried come to mind. To say nothing of Moondog.
You both have so much fun on these videos. Thank you for sharing them with us.
there's something really liberating and exciting in outsider and avant garde art in general, in the sense that everyone is capable to express themselves in the most outlandish and unexpected ways possible and the possibilities are truly endless
This video goes beyond my musical experiences I had in the paste related to music. This video definitely opened a a new door for me!
I always remember this John Cage quote (total paraphrase): if something sounds bad, listen for another 30 seconds. if it still sounds bad, listen for another minute. if it still sounds bad, listen for 5 minutes. if it still doesn’t sit well, listen for 20.
Aaah, the sound of cracking knuckles, clicking fingernails, squeaking styrofoam, fork tines on rough china and fingernails on blackboards. The music that goes straight to the core of my being and cannot be ignored. 😱😁
Paused to say thank you guys for this. I know nothing about music but after listening to you guys I feel like an encyclopedia of music has poured into my brain one volume at a time. Thanks again.
So glad to hear that, thank you for watching
Interesting to note that Cage himself said that he would had never done what he did if he hadn't studied Zen buddhism. In fact, all his alternative compositional methods he created so it would have an effect in him simillar to meditation, that is, reducing the self-clinging that is what prevents us from being deeply happy.
7:30 this is what the expectation of creating anything should feel like. I love it when I know a huge mental/creative process needs to be resolved, or at least explored. Also, I'm so very glad I subscribed to one of the most rewarding channels. Keep doing what you're doing, best wishes from a pseudo-artist living in the border.
I love John Cage, his ideas on sound are just so beautiful and powerful
Top quality videos and such an interesting approach with you two. So grateful ❤🙏🏼
Another fascinating video! Couldn't ask for a better way to start off the day!
Really enjoyed this episode. Being brought up with a classical piano background, I used to have a pretty distinct line between music and not-music, but that has faded over the years. I believe there is music anywhere and any time we care to listen to it.
This episode was fantastic! Excellent job guys!!!
Personally, I don't really have a boundary/definition for music. A lot of people disagree with me, for reasonable reasons, but I feel like any sound can be music in the right context. For me, it just depends whether I'm thinking about it that way. So I guess what I'm saying is that for me, music is really a state of perception than an actual tangible thing.
If that's a bit too pretentious of an answer, I also like the "I know it when I hear it" definition, which makes music a pretty personal and subjective thing. People bring different perspectives to what they are listening to, so they hear it differently than one another. That's why I like thinking as music as purely subjective. Also, I think it makes the world more interesting to me.
Ramblings aside, either one works for me. All I know for sure is that this channel is definitely doing a good job talking about whatever that weird thing called music is. :P
What a great way to explain modern art music. And I think you chose some truly excellent examples of the weird and wonderful art that pushes the edges of our ideas.
For myself, I honestly feel that it's music if it gives YOU a message, a special feeling, if it does something for you if that makes sense. I listen to music sometimes to relax: I certainly would not choose Schoenberg for that purpose. Not because his work is "bad" or "not musical" but because his work demands attention, not relaxation.
I appreciate music that demands attention and thought from its audience. Music that demands an adjustment of attitude, or direct interaction with the work, is fascinating. None of it can ever be the same twice!
For a moment when you started talking about making music out of a sentence I thought you might end up with something similar to "It's Gonna Rain" by Steve Reich.
This was a fascinating episode, thanks so much for your hard work, LA and Nahre! I'm so happy I stumbled upon this new channel and I hope it continues to grow so it helps my understanding of music follow the same trajectory. ↗ :)
Your intro of setting up a question of paradigm is a great way to begin a subject like this. Very cool.
I love your videos! If you guys are feeling the crowd for video ideas, I'd love to see an episode dedicated to music like math rock
Always looking for new episode ideas, keep em coming
Ah yes! Sign me up!
yes i also really would love an education in mathrock, particularly how it developed into a band like deer hoof who had a whole other take again!
Very cool! I love Nareh Sol and everything she puts her hands (and ears) on becomes wonderful
Your videos are always so fire! They always really challenge my biases and encourage me to explore genres of music I just had no clue about before!! I'm absolutely blown away that Nahre & LA can make so many quality original tracks that are outside of their comfort zone. That shit sounds so fun!
Thanks for watching Charles. Much love fam
Great video! Really awesome to be exposed to different types of composition and dissonant textures.
This channel rocks! Please never stop making these! Subscribed.
I make p comparatively conventional punk rock/electronic synth pop. But hearing Harry Partch, John Cage, Pierre Boulez, and Luc Ferrari changed the way I think about everything. “Pop” music loosely defined (as opposed to “art” music, jazz or modern classical) remains closest to my heart, but the techniques of dissonance and chance and textural bizarreness (for lack of a better term) of the avant-garde made me want to get serious about music in general. I also appreciate, side note, how you guys talk about Outsider music without the implicit condescension so many people use. People see outsider art like an amusing freak Show and treat the artists like crazy people or children. Anyway cant tell ya how helpful this vid is, esp for sharing to my musician friends who are skeptical about Cage and free jazz and all that
now y'all gotta get into noise
Droneology next.
Henry Cowell with his tone clusters, Karlheinz Stockhausen with his spatial compositions, Steve Reich's pendulum music, Pierre Schaeffer's Musique Concrete, Varese, and the list could go on and on just for atonal/20th century avant garde not to mention outsider music. (definitely check out the outsider music wikipedia page if you haven't already) Definitely room for a part 2!
Yep, there's room for a round 48 and more, 😁
Amazinnnggg. Music students are so lucky to have these videos now. 🤩
another day another Sound Field video...! love it!
LOVE this channel (and both of it's hosts!)....I'm "musically-curious". Although I do play the guitar well enough, I don't have a formal music education....but this kind of outside musical theory just fascinates me (I am a big Bowie and Brain Eno fan as well)...thank you so much for bringing it "out"
Late to the party, but had to watch, and it was good to see so many heroes and musical breakthroughs talked about and experimented with in under ten minutes.
Speaking of acquired taste, my entry to modern music was via Paul Griffiths' book "Modern Music" (before a later edition was renamed "Modern Music and After"), which placed Debussy at the starting gun in the final round and Schoenberg's twelve tone system as a bulwark against the ongoing dissolution of the classical music tradition he loved so much. The dissonance in the Tristan chord also churned up huge waves that seem to have never stopped - people still don't seem to know what exactly the thing is. A couple of personal favorites in the story that pre-date Schoenberg, each of which could fill a book (and has done, and plenty more).
I have the book but I haven't read it yet.
omg. i'm so happy to find this channel.
Good one - thank you.
Creation and vision make the art. The sounds provide the vessel, the embodiment and realization that carries the experience through time to bring a feeling, message, atmosphere, or moment to the audience and into reimagination and memory.
This is such great content! Love this channel :)
Perfect episode! I just finished reading "The Rest is Noise".
This has to be my new favorite channel!
Glad you found us!
Great video guys !! So happy it landed on my suggestions ! I’m an electroacoustic music student in Montreal, and if you find interest in that kind of music/art, check out Pierre Schaeffer’s « musique concrète » beginnings and all that comes after. I find it quite funny that a lot of music composers in Europe and in the Usa were looking into the same ideas of playing with sound at the same time without really knowing about each other ! Subscribed and will watch your other videos 😉 Have a great day 🤘
So this is what style of music Ross Geller was pioneering
Electrifying....infinite time (time (time (time...))) ...⏱⏰⏱...☝🏻...🧘🏻♂️
The contents are great indeed but I was surprised by the production. Obviously Nahre and LA are not together in the same place through this whole episode but the team managed to make it not awkward at all. A work of very efficient and effective production.
this is great love your channel, now i don't feel as much as a freak with my sounds lol thanks for posting this
When I first heard Bach as a young teenager back in the 60’s it sounded pretty far out at the time. After repeated listening, I had discovered a new world of music, same thing as the first time I heard Charlie Parker. Great music usually requires a learning curve until you start to love it. So my advice is to give any music a little time, and if after that you still don’t like it, move on. Frank Zappa isn’t going to appeal to everyone but if you finally get it, what a gift.
Damn.
So much respect for this content.
Helping me make sense of Sociology of Music at CSUCI.
God bless y'all.
I just found this channel. Brilliant! Subscribed! And my favorite definition of music comes from Edgard Varese: "Organized Sound".
So glad you found us
Good timing, I just subscribed today. Great content guys
Thanks for subscribing, we really appreciate it
Just subscribed when I saw Nahre. Great video. Thanks
I absolutely love this show!
Irwin! I love that guy! That was a nice surprise. Harry Partch and The Shaggs in the same video. Thanks for the great video.
I finally got Schoenberg after many attempts... over more than three decades. I put on a performance of an LP of Pierrot Lunaire I was planning on selling on eBay, because I hated it so much... and it just clicked. Finally. Too bad. The LP was getting $40. It's not leaving the house now.
Really loving this series. An episode idea for you: Queen's vocal harmony construction!
I needed this channel to raise my music intellect! Thanks
I think the essence of music is more in the intention than in the result itself. As long as it's made with sound aims to be beautiful in some way it's music. You can make music with random noises and make non-music playing the piano.
"Each work of art ought to imply the standards by which it is to be judged." That has been my guiding principle for any sort of music or other art. And it means that there needs to be some kind of organizing idea at the forefront of the work.
Wow, loved this video! Great job! I'm inspired!
With synths, especially software based, you can go through a bunch of presets and just be inspired to create music using just the one synth sound; exploring how the characteristics change over the register, like being given a Libretto and you have to write the music for it. A recommended exercise, especially in improv.
When I was in the eighth grade, I had a particularly badass band director. He gave us this definition of music.
"The organization of sound and silence in time."
He gave us that definition simply to stress the importance of rests to a group of young, green music students.
I have stood by this definition ever since. It clarified my own view of what music is. And, personally, I feel that this is the most accurate definition I have heard, or that I will ever hear. Because it leaves open all possibilities for how music could be interpreted in the future.
It would seem to me that the single sticking point, if there is one, would come down to music necessarily being sound, i.e. vibrations of a medium like air that falls in the range that can be perceived by the ear or by something analogous to it. On that point, I can't see any way around or outside of it. However, I can imagine there being future technology that we could not currently conceive of that might allow for a new vision of what music can be. Who knows?
That band director is no longer with us, sadly. I miss him and will miss him the rest of my days.
You were lucky to spend time with a badass band director! Thanks for sharing your definition.
Amazing stuff guys you two absolutely killin it man!!!
Thanks Matt =!
The hardest music to digest I ever heard was by the legendary gerogerigegege. I still cna't quite wrap my head around it, but I love how it challenges my notion of music. I guess it's more of an experience.
I love what you guys are doing ,please keep doing it. And a small request, please do something on math rock , post emo, and how instrumental music affect people in general.
Much love !
I've been listening to the Shaggs literally all week... not expecting to see them in this video. This has to be the universe manifesting/telling me something lol. Wish I had the money to buy one of those Avalon guitars... one day...
I love this!!! It's amazing to me how much music mirrors other art forms; how you can trace the schools that influence visual art in trends across music and architecture and philosophy - and how much those things, together, relate to shifts in cultural narratives. I feel like the wide upheavals in the philosophy of morality that were partially a rejection of stifling 50's conformity culture, the ones that showed up in abstract expressionism in the visual arts, were underrepresented in music - partly because it's a more monetized artform, but also because people just enjoy pleasant sounds regardless of where they fit in the zeitgeist. Successful auditory artists thus had a much higher bar for 'pleasantness' than other forms, except on the very extreme outskirts. So interesting to see outsider music more eclectic than, say, the Violent Femmes.
Bebop and especially free jazz were basically abstract expressionism in sonic form
Now, things are getting really interesting here with this awe-inspiring work and the excitement consistently reaches its apex in every new enthralling episode!💥🧠 My encounter with this inspiring video is one of the truly definitive moments for which I consider myself very lucky that I live in this information/technology age/era in which the Internet culture shapes our lives significantly and through it, we can have unlimited access to mind-expanding, transcending contents like this magnificent (as always!) episode! Although I really love all of your episodes to this date, this one is my personal favorite now and what even greater is that it's just the 6th episode in the show and you always provide top-notch quality content so I can't even imagine how upcoming episodes would be! 🤯 What I love most about this incredible show (also about life and nature) is the diversity in every respect; everything is diverse and unique including musical backgrounds of the hosts, their distinctive valuable contributions to discussions, philosophies, approaches, listening preferences, and various selected subjects for the episodes, different genres, artists, styles, eras, movements, etc. and in my opinion this highly diverse nature is one of the main reasons why this show is truly great and innovative in every aspect! ✨🎶
In this constantly changing world, everything is affected by the pace of the inevitable change that we are facing and it affects our current ideas, frameworks, theories, scientific understandings, worldviews, philosophical approaches, and in addition, conservative views in every field are being frequently questioned as well because not always they offer solid perspectives for today's world and for this reason, it is possible that what once audiences called modernistic or avant-garde can be considered quite conventional for today's standards, for example, it's been said that Beethoven's famous "Pathetique" Piano Sonata in C Minor, op. 13 of 1799 had some reactions in its day due to its harmonic dissonances and profound, modern sound compared to other works of the era, however, now we don't see this composition as an outsider work of art, it seems our perception and music cognition has been shaped non-stop through constant changes in daily and cultural life, too and for this reason change always seems inevitable.
As the one and only John Cage once said: "I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas, I'm frightened of the old ones." seems relatable for today’s world and cultural conjuncture. Maybe one day people from the next generations will find today's music and art highly conventional and conservative, too, who knows, but I think what matters is to find encouragement to try to find new means of expressions in sound by thinking outside the box, to me only in this way the diversity and richness of the artistic endeavors can be enriched with either progression or regression, sometimes regression can lead to progression depending on the perspective and vice versa but I think what's important is that if every artist would try to stay within their comfort zones without attempting to try something novel or profound, this would become a serious danger for art in terms of creativity and diversity. Therefore, in my opinion, what remains valid is that the need for visionary and creative people like you are increasing and it's really great that you have this encouragement to create something iconoclastic and inspiring here to influence people!
If there would be an award for "Best Newcomer Show/Series on CZcams", I'd definitely pick the winner as this show without a single doubt! I mean, I feel alive intellectually and emotionally when I see the new uploads and always try to watch them again and again to learn something new and exciting! Even, after watching this episode, I've tried to collect my impressions and feelings towards this episode for nearly 3-4 days to write a grateful and thorough comment. Since the subject of this video is always intensely dear to my heart, I didn't want to write something in a hurry, instead, I wanted to make it right and create a comment which can be beneficial/insightful (I hope) for everyone who'll read it one day. Since the show and the dedicated crew behind it are always trying to be at their peaks in terms of quality and effort, this is gradually building up a rewarding pressure on me to write a more solid and informative comment in every new episode and this clearly indicates that you've achieved something amazing and inspiring: despite the fact that you try to connect with people and touch their lives in this entirely virtual platform and in this day and age, you've literally managed to re-create this Renaissance atmosphere in which both you and us learn constantly through this high-level interaction and enthusiasm! In other words, this is not just a music education show from now on, it is more than that, this show is becoming a whole new education movement that consists of high-dose philosophy, psychology, literature and every form of art either aural or visual, in short, it's about every music-related subject that can be exciting and inspiring for highly curious minds of all ages and backgrounds on the Internet!
Long story short, we can't thank you enough and I'll always support what you'll do next! You deserve all the appreciation and recognition and I'm sure that you'll get much more of them sooner than you've expected!
As always, big love and respect and thank you so much for this immense influence, dedication, love and effort you put in every outstanding work of yours!! ❤️🙌 👏😊
P.S. It's so interesting that the word "avant-garde" is derived from the French military term "advance guard" in English. According to Collins English Dictionary, it means "a military unit sent ahead of a main body to find gaps in enemy defences, clear away minor opposition, and prevent unexpected contact" or "a temporary military detachment sent ahead of a force to prepare for a landing or other operation, esp by making reconnaissance". Therefore, advance guards are relatively small in number compared to the main troop, they're ahead of the main body and they sacrifice themselves in order to protect their main force/troop against possible attacks. From this definition that can be said that an "advance guard" should have vision, foresight and strong observation skills in order to predict possible attacks by being ahead of others while approaching incidents. It seems this definition can provide a solid reference for the value of "avant-garde", outsider artists in the history of art, too. "Main body" may refer to the majority of mainstream artists whereas "advance guard"s are iconoclastic artists who constantly try to question current norms and approaches by trying to thinking outside the box and outside their comfort zones.
Unfortunately, in history, avant-garde movement has faced some dark moments, too, during the 1940s and in post-war era, in Germany and Eastern Europe, the works of iconoclastic composers including Schoenberg, Stravinsky and Debussy were banned through the bureau called "Reich Music Chamber" and they also banned Jazz by claiming that these modern forms of music are "degenerate" and "inferior". And also in Eastern Europe, the works of iconoclastic vanguards such as Arvo Part and Gorecki were culturally suppressed. Therefore, it is of great importance to preserve the cultural legacies of these great vanguard artists whose immense contributions were suppressed and who have significantly changed the way we understand the nature of music with their creative outputs and influential stances. We owe them a lot.
Btw, I consider listening to highly dissonant and atonal works as an effort which resembles developing tolerance or building up a stronger immune system, the more you listen to them, the more you start to love them and in time you find yourself wanting higher doses of listening to create similar effects. When I first listened to one and only John Coltrane's singular record "A Love Supreme" 5-6 years ago, I couldn't understand what's going on and didn't grasp the importance of it at first listening but in time when I listened to it at different phases in my life I gradually became a jazzhead and literally fell in love with this record. I think everyone can get used to experimental, avant-garde works by showing patience and love.
On the definition of "music", I think music is a big part of being human, I have this simple hypothesis that music might have been developed before languages through imitating the sounds of nature, predators and other animals like birds. Since birds have highly developed vocalization skills maybe humans mimicked their abilities to develop communication means, I don't know it's highly controversial but interesting to think about. Charles Darwin described music as "the greatest mystery" and I think studying music cognition by examining its outputs on the brain is of great importance to gain some valuable insights into different dimensions of it. To me, music is beyond being an aural art, music is what makes us quintessentially human as our universal language and as the great neurologist Oliver Sacks said in his influential book "Musicophilia":
"One does not need to have any formal knowledge of music nor indeed to be particularly "musical" - to enjoy music and respond to it at the deepest levels. Music is part of being human, and there is no human culture in which it is not highly developed and esteemed."
I'd like to finish my words with this inspiring quote by one and only Debussy:
"I love music passionately. And because I love it I want to free it from barren traditions that stifle it."
Thank you for your immense inspiration! As always a truly enchanting episode and please keep up the great work! I'm looking forward to watching the upcoming episodes! Big love and respect! ❤️✨🎶🧠🙏😊
I appreciate this video that makes me keep thinking.
I'm a massive 'Cage' fan......Or anyone bold enough to brake from the traditional......'Different is always better than better'......Great watch, glad to have found your channel......Liam
Wow, beautiful video. Thnx ...
That last bit about outsider music sounds so apt! I definitely have experienced this at two extremes of metal music. On the one hand there is ambient and drone from bands like Sunn O))) , that takes some cues from John Cage with use of noise, and on the other there is the almost complete chaos and dissonance of some technical death metal bands like Portal.
In my own case I would say that there was a process of slow acclimatization. I don't remember liking Sunn O))) or Portal on my first listen. Then I heard particular songs/albums that were more approachable - Kannon by Sunn O))) and the songs Curtain and Werships by Portal. Same pattern with Gorguts. Got into them via Colors of Sand (fairly approachable for someone familiar with technical metal) and now I can "find the music" in their song Obscura.
This is an awesome comparison! Thanks for your thoughts
Brilliant show!
Excellent stuff, Nahre and LA! I enjoyed this one all the way through. (I connected with many of the methods discussed: in my piano suite about eggs, I used a 12-tone row generated by an egg carton, as well as used pitches E-G#-G# as melodic motives, like how you interpreted SOUND FIELD.) Is your “SOUND FIELD” piece a larger work, more than is shown in this video? Would love to hear more of this type of composition from you two. Thanks for the high quality content!
I live in the present and don't understand what the text at 0:13 means. I must be old XD
Great video, as usual :D
Taking a tentative hack at it: "If I may speak frankly: LA is amazing and impressive - no exaggeration."
Los Angeles is on fire to be honest.
Amazing guys, hugs from Brazil!
This morning I was listening to Howard Stern on the radio and he was interviewing Paul Mcartney, who mentioned John Cage as an influence when they were getting ready to record the Sgt. Pepper’s album. I was introduced to the “music” of Cage, just a few weeks ago, so I recognized the name, which lead me here. I’ve always been a fan of avant-garde music, like Capt. Beefheart and Frank Zappa, however I now realize that’s not really avant-garde music to the extremes discussed in this video.
I love how John Cage continues - and will continue - to troll the world of music for generations. The man truly thought of music as something beyond our own perceptions.
Thank you for this!!
I like the word my school (UMBC) described the category "outsider" music, as "new" music. If you think about it, most of the western-based music made by people today are still based off of the rules of traditional tonality. I like the idea that the 12-tone "scale" and pieces like 4:33 were "new" pursuits in the world of music, because they actually were trying to explore new territory. I used to have to listen to this kind of music multiple days every week but like Nahre said, it becomes something you learn to listen past and then you can actually hear what the composer is trying to say.
Thanks for this vid, it was dope!!!
this was a marvellous video!!
This was super cool. Y'all should definitely look into Eleanor Hovda. I would love to see a video on her approach to using extended techniques across the ensembles.
I think when it comes to music vs. not music, I maybe want to define it backwards from the audience, instead of forwards from the work? Like, music is art that impacts us in the way that music impacts us - it is art which rewards you when you bring the skills to bear on it that you formed over a lifetime of listening to music.
Like, as a listener to music, you learn to distinguish between consonances and dissonances, you learn to find regular patterns in the rhythm of performances and put what you are hearing in the context of these patterns, you learn to judge sounds as notes or rhythmic hits or extended noise with timbre - metaphorical color - and their relationships to each other in sound and time. You develop your perception of tempo and your perception of spans of time, opinions about how the progression of sound over time tells a story. You develop a family of skills. Music is sound being understood through the exercise of those skills, I think.
...and I think that makes the line between music and not music subjective, because the question is: can *this* listener understand what they are experiencing with their knowledge of music, or are they unable to? And because people approach the task of understanding music with different tools, different habits, different preconceptions, different past experiences, there will be space where "is this music?" becomes more and more ambiguous.
Yes! Context is absolutely everything!
Well put! There is also a point where the language we use to try to define or explain music limits us in many ways. What does the word music mean anyway? -Nahre
If passively defending a composition requires an essay, chances are it's not music.
And if it is music then narrate to me why two and a half hour of back to back farting rabbit noise is not music. Why isn't chewing noise music? And if these are musical then so must be ASMR videos.
@@dr.rebuttal3009 If people are telling you that you're *required* to like John Cage, you have my permission to flip them the bird and walk away. But don't harass people for thinking it's cool stuff.
@@Packbat
1. I'm not harassing you. I didn't say one bad word or any disrespect.
I am merely asking something. My manners might've been a little churlish I agree.
2. Nobody forced me to like this music. But, I am inquiring out of my own curiosity. I want to know why you think this is music and how it is different from say ASMR.
Captain beefheart, merzbow, aksak Maboul, anyone?
yeah i was waiting for a mention of captain beefheart or at least frank zappa
Your outsider composition came together REALLY well. I'm very curious as to how you both interpreted the letters; what made you come up with the sounds you did to represent them?
My favorite avant garde artist is probably Scott Walker mainly how he started from a fairly well known pop career and decided in his later years to become this extremely brooding and experimental musician. Also very influential to Bowie.
Another would be John Zorn
The only thing that stays the same is change. Best to always be in the Now and follow your Bliss. Happy day, or not, you decide 😃 Cool visual video, has good heartfelt brain feels. Like how you all made it creatively your own.
Actually I don't draw a line, I prefer erasing them...
💜Cheers SoundField💜
This youtube channel is amazing! Could you do a video about music in videogames? (the legend of zelda)
To answer your last question: I don't draw the line between what is music and what is not. Does it matter? I draw a line between what I like to listen to and what I don't. Great video! Cheers.
Wow, amazing content, I really loved this!
I *******
Nice job👍🏻
Thank you🙏🏻🤘🏻
All right so here's my question... when are you two gonna release an album (or series of albums?) featuring the compositions y'all come up with for this channel?
I like John Cage’s 4’33 and his ongoing song that started in 2007, and is about 369 years long I assume.