"That Doesn't Make Any Sense!" - Heated Debate on The Russia-Ukraine War With Michael Malice
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- In this short clip, Patrick Bet-David, Michael Malice, Adam Sosnick, and Tom Ellsworth discuss the Russia-Ukraine war.
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We need more ‘I don’t know,’ responses in this world. Kudos to Michael for not just saying something because he read it on the news or heard it on a podcast. Everyone wants to give answers regardless of how informed they are.
Exactly. We see too many people have opinion on god damn every subject there is even when they know 0 percent about. They still say I believe/think it is.... No why even have an opinion on something you know NOTHING about lol.
@@rbbb9918 HIs career is not international politics, his career is in political and economic theory, very different things. Although just based on my gut feeling and his takes on twitter I agree with your point. This seems to me some level of audience capture, I can't imagine he doesn't know a considerable amount about the conflict... Definitely FAR more than Patrick here.
as the Stoics say.. You don't have to have an opinion on everything. Malice is the smart one here.
Yup. Considering what we don't know is much more than what we do.
There so no “smart one” here, they are all fools.
It is totally fine to legitimately not have an opinion on an issue, however there is absolutely a problem with claiming to not have an opinion while you are actively suggesting that everyone else has it wrong.
He happened to just be born in Ukraine. Nothing else. He has no connection to that area. Makes sense 💯
Please, he should. Imagine not caring about people you have more blood relation too. He probably even has extended family over their but he doesn’t care.
@@honestfriend767 There's no such thing a blood relation unless you're family.
He identifies with the Js, not the U's.
this was super awkward
Looks like PBD just wants to disagree instead of have a conversation
Its either he is just plain annoyed that he is an advocate for anarchists or that his show needs a little more drama to pull audiences. Either way, he lost the argument by asking trying to force an opinion out of him
He’s a salesman. He’s trying to sell his podcast and Malice is not having it. Simple as that.
@@JM-vf8tk HE IS TOO FIXATED ON MONEY, HE THINKS EVERYONE OUT THERE IS LIKE HIM!! I KNOW ONE OF HIS OLD PERSONAL FRIEND, HE SAYS PAT ISN'T A KOSHER PERSON WHEN HE WAS SELLING HIS INSURANCE TO PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY TO THE LATIN COMMUNITY!🤷♂️
Disagreement is a part of conversation
Patrick's surface level thought process can't keep up w/ Malice on this one.
Wrong
Exactly. PBD isnt all he thinks he is. Im sorry but hes not.
PBD may be a great businessman, but he's not a real intellectual heavyweight. He frequently loses debates even when he is on the right side of the issue.
Yet AGAIN...Patrick has NOT a flipping CLUE, he is extremely ignorant. He's even a WORSE debater than he is an interviewer.
It's funny that a guy says he can't answer a question for not being informed while another guy says it doesn't matter if your informed just throw out your opinion. This show is an example of what's wrong with podcast.
the point he is making, is he is not the authority, people will handle problems differently on a personal level and community and come up with different solutions that is best for them
@@michaelgonzalez619 Maybe he needed to shake his head and interrupt so Pat could understand.
Well said
I agree. Makes David look very bad.
I don’t even get what the hell is the argument over….
Michael doesn't want to express an opinion about the war and how it should be resolved because he doesn't believe he knows enough about the truth of the situation to speak in depth on the matter, and Pat thinks Michael needs to have and express an opinion on it and that he should have to apply his philosophical positions to the situation.
Good summary!
@@Tyler_W well said
Patrick needs to let his guest speak. He keeps bringing up tangent questions
Because he’s arguing with a child.
Michael Malice has more patience than I do. PBD looks pretty ignorant here.
Malice looks really ignorant in this video
nope, Malice's anarchism is ignorant
@@horseman3222 His anarchism is irrelevant. He's not required or expected to talk on subjects he doesn't feel confident on. And anyone in this world that tells you that they're an expert on every single global political matter, is full of shit. Nobody is. So pressing him to provide an opinion he openly says he's not knowledgeable enough on the matter to have, is odd and grandstanding to say the least.
@@christophercarrigg3775 : How is he ignorant. His parents moved out of the Ukraine when he was 2 years old. When his parents lived there it was during the Soviet Union era. I don't blame him for not wanting to just talk about a sensitive topic when he doesn't have all the answers.
His perspective relevant and in demand. What’s the crime?
Oh dear poor Patrick can’t get his head around Malice’s reasoning. 😂
because it is very poor reasoning
Malice's reasoning is only good for mental gymnastics... it's not practicable no matter how he tries to go round it.
Because Pat is a War Hawk and Neo-Con. He is loosing his mind now with 4 day work weeks, and countries coming together through peaceful settlements and not war!
@@horseman3222it's perfectly logical reasoning
His reasoning is ridiculous. I'd like to punch the guy in the face to knock some sense into him.
PBD didn’t want to have a conversation he just wanted to be contrarian. Pat I usually like your approach, but in this one you seemed more interested in superficial, ad hominem points with straw man tactics. Not your finest hour.
That's what he always does. Look at the conversation with Paakman.
We all have crappy days and lapses in judgement. I just think he was so caught up in the Anarchist argument lost all focus of his critical thinking. Hes only human. Still tries more than most. Either that or he was making drama to get views.
This was hard to watch. If he says he hasnt all the facts move on to the next Q
I always thought Malice was just always misunderstood while he had something important to say and so I listen to him carefully. But I only noticed this His anarchism only sounds good in theory but highly impracticable. It won't even survive a decade, before Hierarchy resurfaces. Even malice couldn't mention any society operating any system close to anarchism other than mentioning certain instances where he thinks anarchism is working. But we are talking of a society here... HOW WILL ANARCHISM WORK MALICE? give me a blue print
If you want a blueprint, read his book. I haven’t read it but I bet it’ll give you more info then you could get from a CZcams comment. Or are you just talking to hear yourself talk, so to speak.
@@smileychess well, I haven't read his book, but this is not his first interview I am seeing of Him talking of anarchy. Buy you haven't read it too, so you can't say. Following your logic, all he could have done then was refer people to his book. Interview over. But he can't still articulate his points well enough to convince me of reading his book. Thank you.
Not a blue print, but societies like The Rojava and The Zapatistas in Mexico are a good resemblance of what a society with stronger anarchistic/libertarian characteristics can look like. They’re not “anarchist”, but have more elements of anarchism.
Anarchism is kind of antithetical to your request for a blueprint, because the implied purpose of a blueprint for society is that the blueprint is therefore imposed on everyone else, which anarchism isn't for.
I don't think Malice does a flawless job of defending his view's viability, especially not here. But it should be noted that he is not an anarchist in the sense of being opposed to hierarchy; he disagrees with that vehemently and thinks hierarchy is inevitable in human society. It's common for anarchists who've heard of him to not consider him an anarchist on that basis, though it should be noted that some early anarchists didn't focus much on the hierarchy issue. (Spooner is a good prominent example.)
I’m with him on this one
We really have no idea what’s really going on over there.
We’re getting one sided news over here
That's why it is equally important to get independent/cotzen journalism and foreign media perspectives.
the US has contributed alot to Ukraine, unfornately we have continually been reactive and not proactive in sending them what they need to finish off the Russians.. We still need to send them the longer range missiles and jets, in order to push the russians out of the occupied territories of Donetsk and Crimea. The sooner they push Russians out, the earlier we can reduce our Aid to Ukraine.
MM is an extremely intelligent & well spoken troll.
I'm sure he would consider this among the highest of praise.
@@Tyler_W he def would. i still think he's trollin w his whole anarchist thing. someone as smart as him should know it can never scale
Hard to believe Michael doesn't have an opinion on Ukraine.
Malice makes a great point that Americans like PBD expects everyone to have an opinion on everything for the sake of agreeing or disagreeing with them to feed their self validation
Dude wrote a book on North Korea and I’m pretty sure I’ve heard em give his opinion on other countries before.
What has the war got anything to do with anarchy? Either way people have to fight against the invasion whether people take orders or everyone's acting out on their own
ALL of Congress should have the common goal of brokering PEACE between Russia and Ukraine, period.
Patrick couldn't handle being wrong 😂🤣😂 ... he's out of his league... good job Malice 👏
What was that pesky Minsk agreement that nobody is talking about
you must mean the pesky Budapest Memorandum and Russian-Ukrainian Treaty Of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership...
@@carlob5551 That went out the window when Ukraine (with instructions from USA) started killing their own citizens in 2014 in Donbass. Then came the Minsk agreement which constantly violated for 8 years, killing 15000 Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens. So what Friendship and cooperation are you talking about? Ukraine did this to themselves but the one who carries the most blame is the US. Blaming Russia for this is idiotic, they did what they had to do.
@@fxgarden3271 parroting Kremlin propaganda, eh? It's hard for Putin fan boys to wrap their head around the fact that ordinary Ukrainians were behind the 2014 protests against Russia's puppet Yanukovych who, once impeached, immediately fled to Moscow. Btw, the separatists in Donbas were/are Russia financed militias and mercenaries without relevant local support.
@@fxgarden3271 First what happened is that Crimea was annexed by russia and then they created a proxy war in donbass supplying separatists.
@@fxgarden3271 Well son, like all Nzi Putinites, u do like distorting history and the facts....let me educate u son...Nobody was killing or oppressing or fighting with anyone in Ukraine until Nzi Putin invaded and land-grabbed Crimea in 2014 and subsequently agitated / armed Eastern separatists (and sent Russian troops in to support them in the guise of locals) to orchestrate a violent civil war against the Ukrainian state. The Ukrainian government sent troops to the region to sort the situation out who were fired upon (with Russian supplied weapons), they fired back and since then a civil war has been raging in the East and yes, when you start a war unfortunately people get killed. Unlike the Budapest Memorandum and Russian-Ukrainian Treaty Of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership which were freely signed, there would have been no Minsk Agreement if Nzi Putin had not invaded Crimea in 2014 and orchestrated the separatist into civil war, and in any case, all parties made a commitment under that agreement, but none complied, so its not even right implying the Ukrainians alone broke the agreement, imposed on them under duress, at the point of a gun !!!. . This is just another land-grab step by Nzi Putin in his egotistical ambition to reconstitute the USSR...all that propaganda u utter is just manure.
What’s ‘heated’ about this bro? 😮
PBD having a heart attack and MM calm
😂
Why are all these titles so clickbait? There’s nothing heated about this nor do I need it to be.
It was a little heated. Both were frustrated with each other. I just hope PBD wasn't doing it to create drama for clicks.
Malice, whom I'm very fond of, doesn't want to get into the Ukraine issues. I have heard him say that he believes several people were killed in Jan 6. Not true. So I know he's not THAT informed on all events.
Patrick wins most arguments but he may have lost this one
I hate when PBD interviews people he disagrees with, he's just too arrogant sometimes
The look on Michael's face when he keeps getting interrupted speaks volumes.
as a huge fan of PBD (idek who the other guy is) I have to say PBD took an L here. If everyone only talked about things they know and feel confident about the world would be a much better place.
Obviously he’s copping out on answering because what he really thinks is that Russia should be able to take Ukraine. He doesn’t want to come right out and say this, so instead he says that he has no knowledge of the situation and so can’t speak on it.
This is what all these people who are critical of support of Ukraine cop out and refuse to say, that we should just let Russia take Ukraine. And it’s their refusal to come right out and say this that makes them look like weasels.
Exactly. They always say vague things and when pressed try to weasel out, act all offended, or do a gish gallop and toss out 20+ assertions to cover up their opinion. When you are running away from your own opinion it should be a clue that something is wrong with your argument.
Yeah why can't they say something like - the solution is to go back to pre-2014 Ukraine. Atleast then we are clear about what's the goal.
Or maybe perhaps his opinion is exactly what he says it is. He doesn’t have one. This is his whole point, you don’t have to have an opinion on every god damn thing especially if you don’t know anything about it.
He isn’t informed so therefore, he doesn’t have an opinion. Simple as that.
You guys are an example of what he’s talking about. “No he’s being evasive and vague, we definitely can’t just listen to the words coming out of his mouth. He’s hiding his opinion! He’s hiding one because everyone has to have one!”
PBD is very ignorant on this and well i understand cause CZcams might sensor him
PBD wasn't ready for someone to say: "I don't know. I don't have all the facts."
Malice is in la la land
Patrick be like, “which murder gang should win?”
Michael be like, “how should I know which murder gang should win?”
Patrick be like, “anarchy can’t work cause you don’t endorse a murder gang.”
If anyone wants the proper answer it’s that under anarchism this the Crimea and Donbas situation wouldn’t be such an issue. The people there wouldn’t have laws from a foreign culture imposed on them and could operate with their own freedom.
If the actual argument is “AnCapism can’t beat the big scary army that can’t conquer a country who has an average male age of 40” please read Chaos Theory by Robert Murphy (Part 2) and remember that the government sucks at warfare.
I think the issue is PBD cant wrap his head around what he saying. I think what Malice is saying thst under anarchy there wouldnt even be a country per se rather it would just be a bunch of communities (probably mostly snall) governing themselves.
But that would never work, it goes agains human nature. Even if you forced everything to function as small societies, sooner rather than later would some of those societies start growing and conquering others, reestablishing our current status
But thats what gave way to problems that our ancestors dealt with back then. Slavery, perpetual war, famine, disease, etc. If you tribalize the whole world the cycle will just restart itself in a more violent sense because of the technology we have now.
@@beastlydevil777 Oh I agree. I was just speaking to what I think the communication issue was. I think Malice brings up some good points, but I'm not sure if I'm sold on the whole idea.
@@beastlydevil777 and according to malice, our ancestors still weren't anarchist, because they had Hierarchies. I need malice to actually show me how anarchy could be practice
@@iphang-ishordavid2954 anarchy is the absence of order. Chaos is what our ancient kin had to deal when their was no real established order that could keep the peace. Only temporary forces that rose and fell as time went on. The smartest thing and most dangerous thing people did was come together to make a better life and also give birth to a new rise in brutal combat.
They cut it right when Pat was getting cooked😅😂
Michael has seen and heard some weird stuff about how Ukraine operates but didnt want to bring it up and seem biased
He had to use extreme to defend his point we all know who does that
Micheal malice’s audience is overwhelmingly right wing or anti woke/current thing and support for Ukraine is seen as woke, but he has ties to Ukraine has to take on the fence opinion.
He is right there. How ever it ends. Half will be pissed
@@Dan16673 the same for any conflict, nothing is good people will die.
But I’m just saying I don’t buy that he has no opinion, I think he’s covering his own ass because he has a largely right wing Audience
@@Bickle121 maybe.. who knows
@@Dan16673 true I don’t really know and I haven’t seen lots of his stuff but from what I have seen he just seems like a basic “I’m not right wing” right winger for the most part
@@Bickle121 kinda. in ww2 many more people happy the nazi lost than the other way.
Let me finish..... Stop shaking your head😅😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Because PBD was interrupting constantly for 2 hours.
@@smileychess 😅😂😜SMH😅😂😜
@@OscarLopez-sh3lo - So, he wasn't interrupting constantly for 2 hours?
Malice broke PBD's brain.
I’m still trying to figure out what Russia did to America
Russia don't need to, our Govt is destroying this country at a far quicker pace.
I've always known this about PBD
I believe PBD is trying to find out “what an anarchist perspective/position towards that war is” malice decided to punt while at the same time is publicly supportive a national divorce/secession which would likely lead to similar results
The two aren't similar situations. The various states of the USA are not Russia and Ukraine. There are very different shared cultures and histories. Malice is being asked to opine on a subject he doesn't believe he fully understands. Admitting you don't know something and having the humility not to then try to make declarations about how to solve problems he doesn't fully understand is not "punting." It's showing humiiity and actually behaving according to his own principles that people who dint have any experience or familiarity with the lives and problems of others have little room to tell them how they ought to solve those problems.
@@Tyler_W at 6:35 PBD was able to get his answer
That host got cooked trying to outsmart a smarter person than him.
huge pat fan but kinda cringy to hear him try to argue michaels points that are being laid out perfectly clear an valid.
They way country’s interact together in the world IS anarchy. So it does work at the highest level.
PBD looks cute when he’s trying to think.
Hey pat whats your opinion on open heart surgery
Where was this grilling and attitude when arrogant NDT was on? Very cringe interview and not due to the guest.
Was that common sense answer too much for Patrick, think we found his kryptonite guys🤣🤣🤣
Malice has a very vague reasoning style. Human nature will stop his anarchy theory. Anarchism is in dire need of rebranding.
I am shocked at how much support Malice has in the comments here. Patrick is asking him to comment on a real world situation, but all Malice is offering is broad thought experiments. What value does his philosophy and ideas have if they cannot be applied--with specificity--to reality? It's just armchair anarchism.
Patrick's word choice of "higher level" was poor. Better terms might be "relevant, useful, or germane."
But I only recently (and randomly) came upon Malice. Maybe he has a very rabid fanbase.
Poor MM!I mean really
Malice tap dances beautifully around direct questions. 😂
He seemed nervous a lot in this episode
@@serga7486 Malice is nervous when he knows ppl don't buy his anarchy bs.
Tap dances, go watch the Pakman interview. Pat danced all around and couldn't answer any questions posed by Pakman.
@@jacobwatson3781 Patrick does just fine during interviews... Your opinion is noted, tho.
@@jacobwatson3781 True, PBD did a waltz during the Pakman interview, but here he did a good job of trying to elicit a direct answer. It didn’t happen, but still.
Anarchy is hard for Patrick to get his head around.
The man that has an opinion on everything has no opinion on a war involving his country he is from. LMAO
I don't blame him for saying that. His parents left the Ukraine when he was 2 years old so he doesn't know much about the current situation.
@@briendoyle3823 He has very strong opinions about an awful lot of things to suddenly not have an opinion on the #1 news story of the past year.
@@WilkinsMichael : True Michael. Except usually he is trolling people with his opinion or he's just like everyone out there pushing a certain narrative. This time though it's close to home for him so maybe he wants to tread lightly. Or maybe he just hasn't figured which way the tea leaves are swaying.
“I don’t know if anarchist principles would work in a country I’m not familiar with” is akin to saying he doesn’t know if anarchist principles would work anywhere because he doesn’t know what the US would look like under those principles either.
You don’t adhere it Washington, D.C.’s Laws…. Okay go there and break them. The idea that you get a group of people together and there would not be a form of hierarchy (government) is ridiculous. Humans want and crave stability outside of a few people who love chaos.
Smaller communities that maximize voluntary transactions
Hes asking what govts should do in anarchy. Govts dont exist in anarchy. Thats like saying whats the anarchist solution if two frogs were in a dispute over territory. The question makes no sense so there is no real answer.
Trying to apply anarchist principles in statist frameworks is impossible
The more I watch PBD, the more I realize he's just a stooge for his preferred party
PBD, your overpowering personality with this guest is making you look weak and petty.
You can't ask how will anarchist principles work and then apply it to a government when anarchism simply means the absence of government
"how can it be, you're a smart man, you're well read and you don't have an opinion?"
it's staring you right in the face. sometimes it's better to say i don't know
Anarchy means do what you feel is right in youre heart... May the best man win
The more I see of Michael Malice, the more I like him. I'm not an anarchist but the form he is arguing, while not practical, would be nice. It is clear here he is annoyed with PBD for the constant interruptions. Seems like Malice feels like he cannot complete a thought.
Why does Michael give such immense non answers on these issues
Being wealthy is not an indicator of intelligence or the ability to communicate effectively. Pat has a huge ego as with anyone that makes Being wealthy their priority.
Anarchy is the absence of Gov't. Right? But there has always been and will always be Gov't. People naturally want to be led. It's sad but it's true.
Not true, there have been some ex Ireland Iceland Somalia etc etc perhaps they are bad but they are real
Mike- wear orange by law!
Pat- thats a stupid law im not doing it
Mike- thats anarchy
Pat- BUT THERE ARE LAWS IT WONT WORK...
😵💫
This anarchy talk seems really stupid. Go live in a country where there is no order and pray your strong and cashed up with power because your getting preyed on if your not.
Two ears one mouth….Host needs to be a better listener!
SOooo....Malice is more JewISH than UkrarIAN. Okay.🤔😝😎
Pat. Is not a good interviewer he is better when he just let's others talk. He should study on how to listen before he speaks and let his guest answer before he talks back or over them.
Malice is brilliant! The depth of his arguments … 🤓
Once you’re in denial that you run a pyramid scheme (mid-level marketing), you’ll be in denial that your advocating for political pyramid schemes (gov’t).
He's obviously being careful what he says. He Would make a great politician.
This is an L for PBD. Hope he takes some feedback from the comments and adjusts.
“We’re not the ones paying the price” but we are paying 🤦🏽♂️
depends on what you think the price is
Well, is your wife being r*ap*ed or your child abd*cted?or are you being murdered just because your neighbor decided to kill you in the middle of the night?
The price isn't always what you think.
He's very opinionated when its Asian countries. But the literal country he & his family is from all of a sudden its too complicated and sophisticated of an issue..........
He is LARPing as an American born here with no knowledge of the outside world.
I hope Pat brings in Scott Ritter or Col. Douglas MacGregor to ask that type of questions
He wont. Patrick is going to back up US government propaganda till the end
@@murecerickman really
@@murecerickman 100%. He's Ukrainian. Malice knows not to say these things.
respect to Michael for his patience
Much respect to Michael for standing his ground here. I don't know enough about anarchism but, let's face, the other systems aren't faring so well currently.
pbd probably thinks america is a democracy
I’ve watched the podcast and Patrick really can’t wrap his head around Malice’s points, when really his points aren’t rocket science
It isn't that he's incapable. It's just incongruent with his presuppositions about how society is supposed to work, hence his apparent annoyance and frustration.
Pat is fishing for drama here and it’s unbecoming. This is the same slippery slope main stream media slid down. The emotional pull to keep things a show, to keep attention, to keep some sort of stimulus going is the root problem.
They become a slave to other peoples (ours the audience and the viewing metrics we provide) attention.
This is a sad clip to see of pat honestly. Love this podcast and I hope Michael malice really gave them a self reflected learning lesson.
The problem with anarchy is people. I get what Malice is saying but theres always a Hitler...
PBD sounds so dumb here
This guy (Patrick?) seems dense.
Ehh, Patrick can't say that you came off looking anything but smug and entitled in this. Much similiar to the Brett weinstien episode...
Why would an American who believes anarchist principles have a point to be made on the actions of 2 other distant countries? Because he was born there while it wasn't even it's own country? Seemed like he tried to politely refuse to hop onto the Ukrainian sound byte bait that's making its way across every podcast...seems like Malice is the freethinker on this one.
I just love how these guys cannot make any sense of Michael!
The three stooges believe intelligence means non ignorance. These three sees everything from one lens and one perspective
Oh you're talking about the " soft landing where Ukraine isn't a nuclear wasteland
Anarchy is the way to go …
Then how would jt look like in Ukraine right now ….
I have no idea I’m not interested and I don’t see how it would fit at war time ……
So what is an anarchist do when there is war ????
Come on ..
Michael seems like he’s never been questioned or considered the opposition to his extremist views on anarchy.
Patrick was an awful host and couldn’t hold his own, intellectually.
Malice for pesident!
When it doesn’t make sense it makes CIA make sense
This conversation hurt me. You don't have to have an opinion on everything. That is true. But if you spend your days in front of a mic, You should probably have an opinion on one of the biggest issues in the world right now.
Why should he? He's an anarchist 🤷♀️ and moreso because a topic is popular doesn't mean you must have an opinion.. You are allowed to be unsure
So the guy who has an opinion on everything doesn’t have an opinion on this topic?
Exactly! If it was someone else OK but if it is Malice it is a dodge.