M4 edge retention testing, Benchmade Freek and Spyderco Manix 2. What did I get myself in to now?
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- čas přidán 18. 02. 2020
- M4 from Benchmade and Spyderco, the Freek and Manix 2. Thanks to Kurt for sending along the M4 Freek for testing, I appreciate all you do. Just what did I find with this M4? What happened along the way? Check out Kurt's Instagram and CZcams channel with the links below for hardness testing.
Kurt's CZcams channel
/ @jcoolg192
Kurt's Instagram
jcoolg19?igshid...
Edge retention testing data sheets
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Contact me at gdniel@yahoo.com
Follow me on Instagram at Outpost76
As always I appreciate your time and thanks for watching.
Wow. That was pretty shocking! Great job figuring it out and thanks for doing all that work.
You're welcome
That's some dedication. Good job man. appreciated.
I like how my spyderco m4 sharpens. It always easily getting sharp no matter what grit for me. It's enjoyable.
My Spyderco M4 feels much better in sharpening as well.
Hey thanks for the video, nice work. Glad to see everything worked out in the end, but man that's a lot of edges to get it where it should have been right outta the box.
I agree
15 edges. You animal.. wow. Lots of work there.. thank you!!.
You're welcome
its funny because i was looking at my superfreek and thinking... i've sharpened this thing 5 times and it still has issues. this is a very interesting vid sir. thanks!
You're welcome, keep going and let me know when it gets going.
Wow. I’ve never seen, or heard of this problem on good ole m4. Thanks for all your hard work G
You're welcome
How bad...
This is incredible...
Thanks for all the work...
Keep up the great work...
You're welcome and thank you
Wow, production heat treat variance... well done!
Maybe, maybe not...
I believe they runed the heat treat of the blade by grinding too fast and definitly too hot...
With such a horrible grind job it is hard to tell how big the heat treat variance may be on this particular model...
Anyway for the price tag this is a joke... and this joke is on the customers...
Thank you,I have learned something new about knives today, I have never heard about burning edges during factory sharpening.
You're welcome, I did a whole video about overheated and fatigued edges. Its back a bit here on the channel and it explains it in more detail.
Really interesting to watch 👍
I sure am happy I never bought a SuperFreek. That is a tremendous amount of work on that knife to get repeatable results. Great video as always. Thank you for the info.
You're welcome and thank you.
Wow...That is pretty crazy that it took it that many sharpenings to get to "good" steel! Thanks for sharing G!!
You're welcome JB
I commend you for your consistency. Many of us sharpeners, myself included, would have stopped half way through the amount of sharpening you did and ruled it out as bad heat treat. Overheating of an edge can reach right down to the core, therefore, I stand by your conclusion.
Absolutely, Roman has been able to test some using the UCI hardness tester. One bad example showed an overhead blade almost 5 mm up from the apex and a 59.5 hrc at the spine and as low as 55 hrc at the apex. At one point I didn't think I would ever get to a good spot in the blade. I'm glad I stuck it out and got to see just how much was needed to make it right.
Wow that’s very interesting G!! With your example and Toms having similar results hopefully all the m4 freeks aren’t having the same performance issues!! I was thinking about picking one up but now??!!😳😳 Thanks so much for all your hard work testing and thanks for sharing brother!!!👊👊👊
You're welcome and I'll test more as I have the opportunity.
That's incredible! Over a dozen edges before you get through the cooked steel! Every hit on M4 Freeks has been between 62.8 and 63.1. Very consistent. I wonder if they are that consistent cooking the edges!? 😁
Spyderco's M4 averages 63-64..with a few going a little above that.
Great vid G! Thank you!
Amazing..
As I can test more I will to see if it's a wide spread problem. Tom is having issues like this with his and I've seen a few others post about their M4 Freek just not holding up as other M4 does. Thanks again for sending this for testing.
A lot of companies cook there edges gec is notorious for it I recently sharpened my grandads and it took me around 7 sharpenings to get to good steel
@@Outpost_76 i just ordered a freek. Should I cancel the order?
@@tyriskogen7981 even if it takes some work sharpening to get consistent performance the design and user experience is high enough I'd buy this knife over again. Definitely give it a try, if you don't like it there is more than enough interest in them to easily move it.
Thank you for your work and obsession
You're welcome, it's become a rabbit hole for sure looking for the best performing production knives.
Thank you G...🙌🙏...you my brother are a man of integrity.
It's so time production companies start doing wet grinding. I'm shocked that the SF took so many edges to get beyond the fatigued steel. You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Really appreciate you G. 🍺🍻
👍👍👍
I didn't think it was going to take that many when I started using it. Crazy.
@@Outpost_76 That was absolutely crazy brother. Your persistence and dedication is simply amazing. 🙌🙏
Now if BM could have practiced half of that with the edge grinding on the SF, then I'm pretty sure it would have saved you a whole bunch of aggravation.
Wow that’s crazy good video !
Thank you
Damn now I'm gonna have to run my new m4 freek!!!
Definitely run yours and see how it goes.
Like Roman has shown us on the BR he tested burnt edges can really extend further up the edge than we might think. More good data Gerald, but dang that's a lot of sharpening to get it right.
As Roman tests more we will get some good data to compare.
I have a Spyderco PM2 in M4. Glad to see that Spyderco is not burning the edges. I would hate to need sharpen it 14 times. Thanks for the video 😎👍
You're welcome
Thats why i absolutely LOVE CPM-M4 and the Spyderco manix-2!
Of course, i love my Benchmade super freek too, though.
I havent had any issues with mine but i typically touch up the edges on a ceramic rod and strop once a week or so so i dont ever run it past 1/2 a tank or so.
Its got great ergos, a great blade shape and the axis lock is excellent.
I prefer my Spydercos when i really need to work but my Benchmades and others do a great job too especially for EDC.
Burnt edges are pretty common amongst production knives. I personally have not had an issue with the Super Freek. I love mine.
I love mine as well! I don't just use mine to cut cardboard. I do general contractor work and cut with mine everyday and beat it up consistently, and you can tell because the cerakote damage but that's all that gets noticably damaged, I even cut other metals with it and sometimes pry. It takes a significant amount of sharpening and getting it just right but once you do it last a very long time
Great work as usual. I have a super freak and thankfully haven’t had any problems. 17deg edge holds well. Of course it is the only M4 that I own, but it seems to compare (eyeball) to my S35 and CPM20 steels. Great to see quantified experiment though!
My ZT 0561 in Elmax took a good 6 to 9 sharpenings to get into good unburned steel.
Since then its been a great performer. I cut over 300 feet of cardboard (rough estimate- breaking down 14 large outdoor furniture boxes) and still had a good working edge. Since sharpening and using for more EDC tasks,.its now 16 months later and it still shaves with only a stropping here and there.
Burnt edges are a real problem.
That same 0561 couldnt hold an edge to break down a handful of cereal boxes when new.
Pretty sure I know of another me that had its edge cooked. Nice to know it should get to where it should be after awhile. Thanks!
You're welcome
Thank you G.
Two of my very favorite knives, and most carried.
This is an odd one, for sure. M4 is not normally thought of as being as susceptible to edge burning, as many other steals. Having a tempering temp of 1050F.
Sharpened on a dull belt at the factory, possibly?
Of course some knife has to be the last one in line, at the factory. Before deciding on a belt change. This one, must have been it!
: - )
It's the first M4 I've had that took that much work to get going. I've had well over a dozen knives in M4 to compare. Its hard to say exactly what they did I just know I've seen many posts with guys talking about issues with the M4 Freek.
Finally got a BM Freek. Hoping it will work out. I will see how the factory edge performs. If it is similar to the one you tested my plan is to run it on a stone at a 90-degree angle and sharpen it this will very likely help get to the "good" steel.
Thanks for the video 😎👍
Damn..now the question is, is that a one off lemon, or is this a common problem with this knife in general? That sucks..it's a very popular knife..stores can't keep them in stock. I've been considering buying one myself, but now...??? I guess we won't know unless we get a few more to test. I'm glad it finally smoothed out, but who wants to put that many edges on a knife to get to the good steel? We all know that as you remove steel through sharpening, it gets thicker bte. It would be interesting to know the difference in thickness bte from the brand new to the 16th edge where you are finally into good steel, and just how much of it effected the geometry.
Thanks G. What you do is a big help to the community. I appreciate it, and I'm sure most of the other knife nuts do as well.
Benchmade, ZT and many other manufactures are well known for burning edges on there grinding wheels at the factory. iirc Benchmade now use the work sharp belt drive sharpeners when they go in for service, but not when they are being made. could have been a beginner at grinding, someone new to the company or maybe the person doing it sneezed a few times or was mad at his girlfriend. who knows.
You're welcome and I'll test more as I'm able to and see how they do.
Typical Benchmade. BM can never get the edge right. It's either off-center, or finished like it's off of a 200-grit belt-sander, or it's edge-burnt like your sample here. Just a shame for how overpowered the butterfly tax is.
I had the same problem with a bugout s30v it took over a dozen sharpenings to get a good edge
Same on 35vn 30vn
110v good 204p good rex45 good
90v took at least 3 sharpening.
I dunno these cpm and other dust steels are chippy rolly out of the box.
I didn't find the hype on any of them true until I abused and sharpened a lot.
Krikes at one point I was back to 154 just cause I knew what to expect and still feel that way but that's getting better now I'm into several sharpenings on the dust steels.
Just checking to see if any more testing was ever done and if anyone knows if BM’s process has improved. Still wanting the super freek but a little worried after this.
Man that's just sad to see tbh. So little care is put into those knives at the factory. And even worse to know that stuff like that even comes from custom knife makers.. especially with custom knife makers this is a huge problem. Nowadays more and more people go hard and thin bte but don't want to grind wet so they overheat the main grind..
I agree
KKnives Switzerland has done ultrasonic RC testing of the edges of Benchmade knives I believe and found the hardness at the edge to be drastically lower than the hardness where the blade meets handle, which is where testing is conventionally done. I suspect this is sadly the case with many manufacturers, but the problem becomes much more apparent with the carbide rich steels IMO, perhaps because the "matrix" of softer steel won't support a solid apex?
Thank you for this review of these two knives! Your tests are real world and that is priceless! I own the Super Freek. Which CPM M4 knives have you tested that you feel are the best, or had the best results? I'm looking for a less expensive alternative, in M4, that I can beat on more than my pricier $225 Freek!
Since M4 isn't very common in available production knives I'm not sure you'll find one much cheaper. The Native 5 BHQ is currently still available for 119 and Spyderco has been very consistent with M4. Not everyone likes Spyderco, however, it's your best chance of getting the best large production heat treat for a given steel. Kershaw did a Blur run in M4 in gray and blue but it was run softer at 61 to 62. I'll be testing the one I have when I can. It's too bad the Griptilian isn't in the custom shop anymore as you could get the plastic handle with M4 for 160. Another option is to look for a used M4 Freek, they show up for reasonable prices.
Wow Gerald, that is insane. What a shame a large knife maker like Benchmade hasn't figured out how to sharpen a knife without ruining the edge. Great job Gerald, but that is just too much sharpning to hit hard steel for me. It is commendable you stuck it out so long !!!!!
Thank you.
Dude! Mine too on edge 3 and still rolling edges on just cardboard freak’n cardboard!! I’m done too
Incredible amount of work. Manufacturers need to take note of videos like this and your S30V videos regarding overheated steel. Just thinking out loud: High vanadium steels are always going to require more high-speed belt grinding because of the wear resistance, which means more friction and heat addition. This ruins the heat treat of the base steel matrix. Its surprising considering the amounts of molybdenum in M4, because molybdenum, when hot, creates a secondary hardening process. I guess the conclusion is beware of "high wear resistance steels".
It's more the particular practices of how different companies go through the whole process. Most don't use any form of cooled grinding, some do. The heat treat done also plays a part. Abrasives used and so on. Some of these high wear resistance steels are made to work hot. Many different things at play as far as what could be the cause.
Thats crazy luckily my m4 seems fine but just normal everyday use so not sure but that sucks benchmade needs to get that straight for what they charge you shouldn't be having edge problems with m4 steel
Benchmade's CPM 3V and CPM S30V are substandard compared to other brands as well. Only a fool buys a Benchmade knife nowadays. They are, as a company, a shadow of their former selves.
I had a very similar issue with mine. Cuts great now but it took months to get there. I had hoped it was only mine and maybe a few others but thats clearly not the case.
I've had a couple dozen people tell me they had similar issues with theirs. I'm glad it came around for you.
I haven't used my knife but am considering to carry the knife but if I have to sharpen it 15 times then I don't want to use it.
Excellent video G. I know we talked about this between us before but I figured I'd put it out there for everyone now. I'm having the same exact issue with mine. It's only on edge 3 though so I'm optimistic that it won't take as many sharpenings as that one was. Just strange rolling and chipping under light use.
It will be interesting to see just how many edges it takes for yours to show some good performance. Like yours this was cutting cardboard that chipped and rolled the apex. Nothing crazy to cause the damage.
One thing i remember is that Benchmade laser cuts there blades out. This can be problematic for some steel's like m390/20cv. as major heat prior or aft to heat treatment is not good. but i dont think this is a huge problem with m4 in particular, please correct me if im wrong. i would assume this is due to burning the edges when grinding the cutting edge. When you do so many blades a day some are bound to get miss handled and use a bit more pressure.
I know they dry sharpen and I've purposely overheated a few different steels to see just how fast it can happen. That would be my guess as well, too much heat during sharpening. I'm going to talk more about this at some point. I have some things I'd like to cover and talk about.
Over a dozen edges..... makes me think I'm not crazy when i think my knife steel keeps getting better after multiple edges. I guess you shouldn't overcook your steak or your steel! Thanks for the testing.
You're welcome. This is by far the most times I've had to sharpen any knife to get repeatable performance.
Couldn't decide if l wanted this or the Ritter in 20cv l know there 20cv has had a few issues also but I think I'll take my chances on the 20cv Thanks u made my decision a little easier Man that super freek is sweet looking though 👍👊
Bro
Reconsider that seriously
Check out the knife engineers vids on m4 and what he says about cv20.
I was gonna do the same rsk g2 in 20v picked up a coated delica m4 and wow.
Just got the 🌶 pm2 from smkw with m4 blade, hope it’s as good as your manix!
Do you think a high speed steel like Rex 45 would be more resistant to having a burned edge?
Yes. The added Cobalt helps a bunch with that.
Are you preparing for some serious surgery procedures?
Overheat on a high speed steel idk tempering is in the high 900 to low 1000 deg f sounds more like decarb in the heat treat
Roman has done testing to see just how hot a blade gets down by the edge and it's far hotter than you would think it is. I'll have to ask him again what the temperature readings were to be exact.
I sharpened a bbq guys brisket and ribs knife. A 10" chef's knife whose edge had tiny chips. I at different times and then in combination I used 600/1000 diamond sharpening tools, 800/1200 water stones, a Ken Onion belt grinder/sharpener and an 10" honing bar for kitchen knives. I figured out he'd left it on the grill routinely and cooked alot of the primary grind away. I was nearly a 7/8 inch into the hollow grind before the edge wouldn't chip during sharpening. He never admitted he cooked the blade but his girlfriend did.
I have a M4 Spyderco PM2 and a Benchmade M4 Freek the Freek is only on edge 3 but I’m not impressed with the Benchmade M4 compared to the Spyderco.
Wow! Have you had any feedback from Benchmade? Had thought about this model but...not now! (Great output, btw 👍)
I am surprised, even shocked. I know things happen. Someone interrupts you or you need to pee real bad or the last blade outta the oven. I like Benchmades alittle better than Spydercos because if their warranty. And I think the freak looks alittle better in the hand than the manix, just cause of handle girth. Thanks for putting this out.
Timothy Becker when you have shit craftsmanship you need to have a good warranty.
What an immature childish thing to say. @@Danik0211
My m4 940 has crap edge retention, has had around 4 edges already
15 edges or 15 sharpenings but the blade loocks like new. when i sharpen my blades its visible after one sharpening . but maybe he counts asharpening just a few fasses onfine ceramic.
15 sharpenings is just that. All testing edges come from diamond plates using a KME. Each one is what a sharpening is, raising a burr on each side then refining that down to the ending grit. I like many don't raise a bigger burr than necessary which doesn't sharpen away steel for no reason. If you can visibly see a difference after one sharpening your service life isn't going to be very long on that way.
My bailout and Super freek took 9 and 11 edges to get to fresh steel. The only M4 BM knife I have ever had that didn't have a severely burnt edge is my SMWK exclusive bugout, it took 3 edges to reach good steel as edge 3 and 4 tested within 3% of each other on card board.
Sad to sharpen a year or more worth of edges off my SF and Bailout just to reach good steel. The edges was burnt so badly that when the apex would just totally fail. Your cutting and its sharp sharp sharp BAM dull and this would happened in 50 to 100 feet of card board and That's using the whole edge not just a 1 inch sec.
I could tell something was major wrong on both of them as the micro chipping, super flippy floppy burr that hangs on for dear life.. as soon as they touched the stones I knew something was off, I own a LOT of knives in M4 (hell prolly close to 25 M4 spydercos not including all the other brands in M4 I own so I know what it feels like on the stones very well) and know it very well when sharpening. Both of those knives had that smearing feeling on diamond stones that soft poorly HT knives have. I wasn't worried about it as it's the first sharpening and I fully expect it to be 2 to 3 edges before I'm in fresh unburnt steel... I started getting upset when I'm at 7 edges in and they still feel the same.
Once I got in to clean steel and on all 3 of them I can safely say that spyderco does their M4 better then BM. Out of the 25 or so Spydies in M4 I own I have never had one go more then edge 4 before it would test within 5% of the last edge and normally they are testing consistent on edge 3.
I have never seen any M4 except for on the bailout and SF have the apex chip and totally fail with just cutting card board. It wad weird how it would fail as well, it was like a light switch, it would be fine for 50 to 75 feet then all the sudden go from hair popping to dull in one or two cuts. It's like the apex was there and then once it started to lose some of its sharpness it just completely failed... not the normal it gets less and less sharp the more you cut.. now they preform great and I really love the SF but pissed at having to remove that much of my blade for nothing. That many edges and the BTE thickness is a lot thicker now then what it would be if I was only on edge 3 or 4 so the knife doesn't cut as good as it should and without a regrind I'll never have that super slicey high preformance cutter that I should have. I have deff thought about having the SF reground with a FFG down to 8 to 9 thou BTE because I do really like the knife it just really gets to me that I lost all those edges just to get to fresh steel. The bailout I literally never carry, after I got it to fresh steel and carried it a few times it hasn't seen my pocket since and that have been like 2 years ago.
The bugout I do carry a lot, it's a consistent left pocket/backup knife for me and gets a lot of pocket time in that roll. I will say this tho BM M4s edge retention isn't as good as Spydercos m4 not by a long shot. Spydercos M4 feels better on the stones, takes a crisper edge and holds it noticeably longer then BMs m4.
BM just isn't the company it used to be, the only BMs I buy anymore are 2nd hand knives from years ago when BM made a truly great product. Any of their new stuff (I've bought about 8 new BMs up to about a year and a half ago when I decided no more new BMs for me) has such poor quality control, gritty actions (they do break in nice on the axis locks most times but most feel bad out the box) very inconsistent secondary bevels that vary 2 to 3 degrees from tip to heal and 2 to as much as 5 degrees different from side to side along with primary bevels that are very seldom even close to matching.
My 535-3 (the last knife I bought new from them, carbon and s90v bugout) secondary bevel on one side varied from 16 to 21 degree from tip to heal on one side and 18 to 23 on the other on both sides the bevel literally looked like waves and the primary bevel was about 3 degrees different from one side to the other that's horse shit. Now I will say the s90v on it was done really well and felt just like spyderco S90v (that's a good thing spyderco does a great job on their S90v, my cutlery shoppe manix 2 LW in S90v is the best production S90v I have ever had and the 535-3 is close to it) but the grinds was such a mess it killed some of the joy I had for the knife. I was in good steel on it on the 4th edge and by the 4th edge I had the secondary bevel perfect and consistent and just put a 15dps bevel on it and it's great now. The edge I have on it the progression was done on my Venev Dragon plates 80, 150, 400 and finished on 800 then stropped on nanocloth with CBN emulsion on 7 micron, 5 and finished on 3 micron and its a sticky toothy edge that will whittle hair and destroys card board and fibrous materials after. Weeks use 10 passes per side on 7, 5, 3 micron loaded strops and it brings it back close to off the stones sharp. I would buy their S90v again so long as I could handle the knives first and pick one out that had consistent bevels and decent action however I can safely say I would NOT ever buy a knife from them in M4 again and that's sad because M4 is my single fav EDC knife steel, with S90v being a close second and then 20cv being 3rd.
Yeah my S90V version was exactly the same smh I legit thought I had gotten a lemon so I just beat the crap out of it and used it/sharpened it many many many times and lo and behold eventually it started to perform and act like S90V should but unfortunately by then the knife had taken on so many scratches and wear that I just kept it as a hard-user with now proper edge retention!
Also my 20CV Hogue Ritter actually held its edge and took a much keener edge than the both the benchmade freak versions S90 and M4 so what does that tell ya right there? Lol, Hogue has their shytt together with sharpening and heat treatment if they're able to make 20Cv outperform both S90V and M4 which both should far far outperform any 20Cv without any fatigued steel that is...
What's working edge
That is terrible. I thought I really liked my supposedly Super Freek but now not so sure. I know I can't sharpen as well as you or BJ. If it takes that much to get to good steel I am in bad shape. I have used mine but more on paper and thin plastic water bottles. Thanks for sharing the results now I have to figure out what to do with it.
I'd be happy to sharpen it for you and as long as it's doing well for you then don't let this example change your mind.
I think that was a ploy to get you to do all the work,the next guy gets all the glory-
Lol
Own the Freek love it M4 is sick kid 😎 🔪
It’s like moldy cheese, you just have to scrape the bad part off
What is your fine edge and then writing edge? What is the difference sorry I’m
Late to the party!
I've since clarified it but the fine edge is when it stops shaving and the working edge is the total amount of cutting before it won't slice 20 pound weight printer paper all using a 1 inch section of blade.
Wow I really give you credit. 15 sharpenings on the same knife just for testing until you got results that were sufficient. Talk about a lot of work. I’ll pry go ahead and skip an m4 freek and find another knife in m4 to try. May get the spydie.
As I find more to test I'm definitely going to see how other examples do.
Baffling burnt blades Batman!
Potential sub. Who TF is Kurt?
Jcoolg19 on Instagram and the one who does all the hardness testing for the different channels. He is under the same name here with hardness testing videos.
czcams.com/channels/NphOsKyFcYmeq-kU0IXyqw.html
@@Outpost_76 now I know
What do you use for sharpening?
For all testing I use a KME with diamond stones.
Buy spyderco. Tenacious in m4. Cuts forever without dulling
Is the Chaves up for testing?
It's done and will be up in the next few weeks.
@@Outpost_76 Thank you sir!
This irks me. For the price we're paying for these premium knives, the manufacturers should all be doing water cooled grinding to prevent this from happening.
Hey is JcoolG19 2, still around?
Not on CZcams or Instagram anymore.
Not on CZcams or Instagram anymore.
@@Outpost_76 I sent him a bunch of knives and can’t get ahold of him to get them back. Hope he’s alright.
There’s something oddly therapeutic about the sound of those cuts!?!
ever thought about using a tungsten pull thu sharpener to get the burnt steel off? blasphemy I know.
I've kept my process the same so I can see when a steel begins to perform and how it acts in use and testing.
Why didn’t you just send it in instead of wasting all,of that time?
I’m so tired of BM’s lack of “give a shit” with their knives. They’ve gotten to fat with people buying knives and not questioning them. I’m done with BM’s. Never ever had any issues with Spydercos. Seems like they take heat treat and craftsmanship more serious than BM. Between the bailout 3V debacle and their burnt edges, I’m through with BM’s.
It’s a great knife. If your not a 100% sure stifle it Edith. That’s that particular blade and it cuts fine and get better anyway. Who the hell cuts that much cardboard everyday anyway. Really. Use a box cutter. This review made some kid somewhere lose sleep over nothing. It’s a tool. It will cut. Cheers
Yet, people talk about Chinese quality. You should visit Europe and listen to what they think of American quality, you are always the best when you only hear yourself speak.
For what you pay for a Benchmade, this shouldn't happen.
Do you ever listen to your presentations. You have recurring pauses in your cadence, pauses that are not relevant to the context. Almost like it hurts you to talk. As a listener, makes me feel like I am always waiting, slow mo. Very painful. Just passing by. Will keep on passing by.
Benchmade Is such overrated, overpriced garbage.
Great info! I imagine you feel pretty comfy sharpening a Freek 😂
Absolutely, lol.