What Is A Rebody? When Clones Go From Fun To Fraud... Fender Tags, Vin Swapping, And More Explained
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- This video has been on my to-do list for quite a while. I got to thinking about it again recently as my friend Dave was window shopping 1971 Plymouth Duster 340s - which for some reason are now a highly valuable commodity. So on today's episode, we talk about about some of the different ways that a less desirable classic Mopar magically turns into a more desirable and collectible car - ranging from harmless and fun, to downright illegal. As usual, there's a whole lot more that I could say on this subject. More than anything else, I hope this helps to convince prospective buyers of these cars to take off the rose colored glasses for a moment and really scrutinize the important details.
Simple solution: Build them how you want just tell the truth. Personally if you have a true collectable, be true to stock. But if you have a car that is common have fun. Put in a gen 3. Make a tribute...whatever. For instance I would never 440 the 79 300. But I would 440 or gen 3 my 79 318 Cordoba. Thats my story and Im stickin' to it!
I couldn’t agree more!
You can be as honest as you want to the next buyer, the problem is when THAT buyer goes to sell it. Will they be honest?
Fortunately you're not responsible for what someone else does. Unless you are very fortunate, and have lots of money a purely original unmolested car isn't a possibility. Unless it is factory fresh it isn't totally original. If you have ever changed the points or the oil filter it's not original....is it? So where does one draw the line? That's purely subjective. You're opion and mine likely differ on the subject. So who is right? I would say both of us are...unless we are trying to deceive someone.
I think your charger is trying to tell you that it is trying to identify itself as a super bee now. Hence that there was a bee near your fender tag
😅
😂😂😂
I should have mentioned a long time ago that your style and attitude has increased my enjoyment of my oldie. I don't give a rip what anyone thinks: the smile is on MY face. Thank you, Jamie!
Great subject. Yeah I don't have to worry about getting ripped off because I don't want to spend that kind of money on a car anyway. The cars I buy I assume do not have original anything. Sometimes I find out that they do. That's nice but I don't really care. Like who cares about mileage? Original mileage or total mileage it doesn't matter. Does it look good? Does it run good? Does it burn oil? Does everything function correctly? These are the cars I like. I've owned tributes, clones and cool drivers. I love them all.
Before my current two, I’ve never had a correct or original Mopar. And had never had any worth real money either. I have always lived in ratty driver land, where just about anything goes - but I have recently realized I have a pretty serious love for the look of a factory original engine compartment.
I agree with you on just build them the way you want and leave the original tag in place (if it’s still there). Lots of ppl have told me my 340 4spd swinger is just a slant 6 auto, I just ask them where theirs is? Usually that quiets them.
I like my Mopars "Restafied " restored and modified. Numbers , we don't need no stinking numbers !!!
Also like the cartoon of the blue Duster , with cop caps and trim rings , so wrong , but so right , where did you get it ???
Oh hell yeah! Well the car itself isn’t a cartoon but the little fella is. Haha. I found that picture online, but it says Volo Auto Museum in the picture.
Excellent content as always. I thought it was so cool as I was watching and saw you used my V24 fender as an example of a correct one. I felt like I hit the big time LOL.!
Haaahaha. Hoping this is a good thing. I know nothing about the source vehicles - they were sent by whoever has a registry of them to Dave for comparison. Cool!
Yes no problem at all. I was honored that you used it :)@@DeadDodgeGarage
As long as a car is honestly represented as a clone, tribute, or authentic, I'm ok with it.
Me too! That’s exactly it.
4 thumbs up,another good video. My 73 charger rally going back together to be a daily driver. Gonna be nice to look at and fun to drive.
Awesome!
Watching your channel makes miss my 71 Duster slant six with a 3 on the tree
This is a really great video that helps clear up any confusion. Great job!
I own two 70 muscle cars. My 70 Challenger is really a 71. It was a 318 904 with a 7 1/4 reared. Now it is white with a black interior. 340 727 and an 8 3/4 rear end. I’ve owned it since 1979. Also has R/T emblems. Looks just like Vanishing Point Challenger. Any Mopar man knows a 70 R/T never came with a 340. The original id tags are in place and not pretending to pass it off as a true R/T. I also own a 70 GTX and it was a 440-4 bbl car and no air grabber hood. Today it is a 440-6 with an air grabber hood. I’ve owned it since 1980. Some would be shocked that it was not restored back to it’s original state. But I bought the parts over the years to add to what I wanted. It still has it’s original I’d tags too. As long as you don’t try to fool someone into believing it’s something it’s not. Matter of fact is the 70 Challenger is easier to choose as a daily drive. I am on edge in the GTX.
I’m absolutely right there with you. These are your cars, and you built them how you wanted to enjoy them - not to fool anybody. Especially having owned the GTX 43 years! It seems pretty obvious what your goal was - to have fun. I’m all in on that.
I am always surprised how much your thinking on various mopar topics, mirrors my own. I don't care about fender tags either.
Nice I love having something to listen to at work
My 71 demons tag reads 318 2 barrel.... but it was built with a 4 speed and an 8 3/4. But I agree with you. The tag just tells you what it was. Or wasn't..... They're all cool.
I currently own a 1970 Challenger. The previous owner decided to kinda make it something it's not. The worst part is they hacked the hood to paste on a fiberglass T/A scoop, cutting out some bracing which is causing the patched-on scoop to crack. This, and a black-painted engine bay are my biggest pet peeves of this car.
Originally a 318 automatic/plain jane, it now sports a 360 of unknown origin. From what I can tell, the body is in really good shape, with original front fenders and an added R/T rear valence. The wiring is fairly well shot, and I gave up trying to piece-meal it in about 15 years ago. The car has been garage-kept for at least the last 25 years.
Aside from the wiring, it has some other problems like worn door hinges, and a driver's side window that constantly falls out of the track. It needs new trunk trim, and the original rear bumper is showing age, I think the front bumper is an after-market and looks pretty crappy as well. Needs exhaust. There may or may not be issues I'm not aware of. Aside from the headliner sagging, the interior is not bad. It has a rallye dash but speedo & gas gauge do not work.
My question is this: Is this car worth putting money into to get it roadworthy again? I'm not talking a full restoration, but probably a crate 360 (or a modern hemi swap), some repairs, and paint. I'm getting up in age, so I would have to pay a shop for the work. Would I be better off paying $30-$40K to re-work this car, or should I just sell it & buy an already restored Challenger?
If I wasn't on the East Coast, I would definitely give DDG a call. I like your style, and you know your stuff.
It’s a ‘70 Challenger, so it’s worth fixing for a lot of people. The question is if it’s worth it for you to undertake. If selling it and buying a nicer car is an option, it’s probably the best one.
Personally, I wouldn’t be throwing out an engine unless something is actually wrong with it. Challenger flat hoods are reproduced for around $600 plus freight. The hinges are probably junk too. An exhaust system is not expensive. A complete factory style replacement wiring harness is around $1000. None of these projects sound like a killer - but that all changes when you pay someone else to do it, and you consider that they also need to touch every single brake and suspension piece on this car. It also helps that I generally don’t believe in paint, shiny bumpers, and many of the other little details that make some people feel itchy. I am fine with enjoying a car as it is. It takes a lot of the pressure off.
Hopefully this helps, I don’t know. Haha. In any case, thanks - and yes, if you were closer, at least the mechanical end of this could definitely be a project for me.
@@DeadDodgeGarage
Wow, thanks for the speedy reply.
I bought this car for $5500 about 20 years ago, It ran strong and I wonder about where the motor came from, I was told it may have been out of a mid-70's pickup, and appears to have a factory 4bbl intake manifold. In the last year I drove it, it was prone to backfiring when being started, and wound up exploding a muffler. Is there a way I can figure out what motor this is? If it's anything special I would just as soon have it rebuilt. If not, a magnum crate would give me a better warrantee.
As far as the hood, I would prefer to put an R/T repro on it, as the existing manifold won't allow a flat hood, plus they just look so good. I've heard some brands are better than others.
I replaced the rear leafs & shocks 15 years ago, right before I parked it, so they are essentially new. The headers dragged over speed bumps occasionally, but I don't know much about adjusting torsion bars.
I'm sure my 63-year-old back could probably handle some of the mundane stuff like maybe the exhaust, but I am not into pulling the motor myself, and I definitely am not cut out to re-wire it.
Anyway, I'm still puzzling over what to do with it, and how much I would want to put into it. At least with this one, I pretty much know what I have at least body-wise, buying another "restored" car can be a real crap-shoot.
Anyway, thanks for your time, I didn't think I was gonna hear anything too revelatory. If I decide to do anything with it, I'll shoot you another comment.
I am the guy, who would go the opposite way around. I would build a typical sleeper car. As you might see in my profile picture. Less is more in my eyes. I really do like that golden, gray Charger (?) with the vinyl roof on the lifting platform. Particular that lovely patina...
Oh yeah, that’s Ralph’s ‘69 Charger, and it’s awesome.
Great video dude. This sort of thing also happens with vintage guitars as well. I would rather have a daily driver like the ones you have. They are not cheap by any means, but a car to have fun with, just like they were meant to be.
Completely agree! Thanks!
All of those are cool... The nefariousness could affect any of them and really should be avoided. Thanks for some insight into how such might possibly be avoided. I agree. Build what every you want and can afford. Just don't misrepresent what it is.
Good stuff,
I still like that I have my fender tag it’s just good history.and yes I won’t be building it to what the fender tag says. Just nice to know what she was born with.
Totally agree!
You forgot those of us who take 'rare' cars and do the unthinkable, leave them as-is and actually drive them. Took my original 383 4 speed a-body and 'ruined it' by swapping in a dual quad tunnel ram fuel injected big block, drive it every day.
I love everything about those…
The fender tags are always bent in the left upper corner. They would bend them at the factory I think for paint purposes.
Was that at all plants? I thought there was some variation there. But yes, I did mention this in the video. The tag on my Charger is bent at the top left, but incidentally the painted screw is in the top right - so obviously it has been off the car before, but reinstalled with the original hardware.
Like you said, everyone and their mother want to own a Charger RT, GTX ect…with a big engine (especially 68-70). There is nothing wrong with dressing up your charger or dropping a bigger engine in it as long as when you sell it, you tell the prospective buyer.
My 71 demon was a 340 tribute car, originally was a 225 /6, if it had been a real 340 car I'd never sold it but the chance for a real 427 4 speed factory side pipe convertible 69 corvette was irresistible!
Awesome! Hard to blame you… I guess… haha. No I do like those Corvettes. I think we’ve been over this.
@@DeadDodgeGarage 😊👍
I have a 69 dart 340 four-speed all numbers matching. I also have a 72 dart 360 automatic that’s been bastardized and built the way I want it. So, to each their own.
I’m totally into both - for different reasons. At some point I will put my Demon back to “stock,” but I’m really enjoying it as a hot rod too. Original 340 cars are awesome, but my usual choice flavor is a low level Swinger with my favorite parts thrown at it. There is a ‘72 in my yard now waiting its turn for that.
Yikes! Hope you’re okay and the cut isn’t too bad!
My ‘71 Dart Swinger was born a mid-level 318 nothing special, except for the Citron Yella paint job. Profession auto photographer Mark Brooks took his time and rebuilt it into a fun street & strip car worthy of the Scat Pack stripe & window stickers it now sports. But he was very clear about what the car was and now is before I bought it.
Fun fact: in 1971 Dart Swingers were kicked out of Dodge’s Scat Pack to make room for the Demon. Ouch.
Yep… so other than a small number of dealer ordered cars in Canada, the ‘70 is the last 340 Swinger. I really want one eventually. My ‘70 was a modified 318 car, and I loved it. I don’t need the real deal.
Cuts and scrapes on my hands are part of every day life for me. Being on my palm is inconvenient for some things but it’s healing up alright, I think.
Well, they can be both. As long as you leave the numbers and insignia alone, it can be done up as a 'muscle car' version and still be cool. I had a '71 Satellite Sebring Plus that I transplanted a 440 6bbl 4 speed and diff. out of a '69 Road Runner (a real A12 that was totaled) but left the '71 badging as it came. I upgraded the suspension and brakes too, added a hood scoop and some engine call outs. This was the early '90's. If you want a 'tribute' that's one thing. I just saw a video of guy that claimed to have a '1970 GTX'. Turns out it was a 4 Door sedan Satellite done up exactly as a GTX. Emblems, drivetrain and all. Basically all GTX hardware and callouts etc. on the 4 door sedan. That's just WRONG on so many levels I don't even know if the guy knew the difference. Had hidden door handles on top of the rear doors and shaved door handles. That's just sacrilege and over the line. A poser clown car.
Supply and demand. There was never enough supply to meet the subsequent current demand in the years after production, so now, there are more than enough people that will take creative measures to meet the market needs. Some are legit or skirting the 'gray' areas and other are downright criminal. You need to become acquainted with numbers and codes and fonts otherwise you WILL GET BURNED. Being educated is your best defense. Only one reason to get fake tags and numbers made up and it's not for a 'tribute' or any benign reason. It's to scam someone out of money.
It also gets into the area of if you have a legit car at what point is it no longer the same car if you replace 50,60,70, or 80% of the sheet metal with AMD panels or panels other than it was made with? Today you can 'restore' a whole car around a firewall, radiator support and a couple of frame rails or less. Everybody will have a different answer on that. I would say over 50% it's no longer the same car. If you ask anybody, there IS a difference in a largely 'original' car and a 'reconstructed' car (which is the legal description as far as the DMV is concerned) in both quality and value. Everybody has their own views and opinions and I doubt it would ever be settled.
Yep… completely agree with what you just said. I am not a high end collector. I have a couple decent cars, but have no intention of buying “investment grade” in this life or the next. If it isn’t usable as car, it isn’t worth owning in my world. I’d like a Hemi car - and frankly it doesn’t matter if it’s original or not. It just needs to have the important part… but you’re right. I may not know every code, but I do know what I’m looking for - quite well, in fact. I knew from the grainy Craigslist pictures that something was not on the up and up with this car - before the trim tag variations were ever discovered.
I bought an original bone stock '71 V code car in 1983, complete 48k miles for $2000. I almost didn't buy it. Still own it. Air Grabber, Super Track Pak.
In 1995 I saw an original Hemi 'Cuda for sale at Carlisle for 29 or $30k. Had about 30K or so miles. It was that boring "brown" color with a tan interior, auto, column shift, 8 3/4. Even then it was a 'deal'. I couldn't afford it, but the funny thing was people were steering away from it because they thought it was 'too cheap'. I gave it a good looking over and it looked like the real deal to me. It was an 'original car' with minimal if any repro parts.
My brother had an original '68 Charger R/T that he sold in 2004 which he had since 1984. It had the drivetrain rebuilt with 64K original miles. Sold it for 18K 20 years ago. He'd $hit if he knew what they are going for now.
Just looked at some classifieds yesterday and couldn't believe the prices. Clones and tribute cars are going for what the real cars were getting 10 or less years ago. Almost like it doesn't matter anymore. Just blew me away. Rollers and projects are 20-30k. You can still find deals but it's not going to be in the classifieds or on a board listing.@@DeadDodgeGarage
The tag on my 68 Notch-Back says grocery getter.....
But that was 55 years ago....now she screams 495HP 318/392 stroker!
Awesome! Some day I will do that with a 318…
@DeadDodgeGarage I just got her painted Sublime green and I'm in the reassembly stage...including gear vendors overdrive, Alterkation suspension, sequential port fuel injection, air conditioning.....and more!!!!! Wish you were nearby to help me - I have a hernia that's slowing me down...LOL
I knew very little about classic cars and had no idea this was even a thing. Growing up there was 3 1970 monte Carlos on our property and one was a green SS. In high-school I took the 3 cars and made a good solid car. I put the bucket seats, shifter, engine and other SS stuff on the basic monte carlo because it was solid with no rust. I drove the car and started going to shows to meet other people. After about a dozen meet ups and shows a guy was hounding me to sell or trade the car and I finally agreed. Turns out I was a scum bag and I was the type of people they didn't want in the club. I was embarrassed and angry because of the treatment so I haven't involved myself in cars for about 15 years now but started watching videos again hoping to build another car. I was just a kid and I didn't know there was rules to building a classic car and it kinda makes it unappealing too
There really aren’t rules if you’re just building something for you. But I don’t think I would take a car like that to a show. They tend to be full of dick heads…
@@DeadDodgeGarage I was 17 and just trying to find people who were also interested and could help me because i screwed up a lot things up over 3 years making that car. They were dicks. They claimed it was impossible a teenager built the car I had and I was there trying to offload a car scumbags built etc. These guys had schizophrenia man. I wasn't even trying to sell a car, I was trying to meet like minded people
Great video, appreciate the lesson!
Jamie, you're speaking my language yet again. After you take apart a few of these cars you realize they're basically all the same under the petticoats. There's no special voodoo baked into a 340 or Hemi or 440-6 car. Sure, they're cool, but there's no way I would ever pay a premium because a car came from the factory with a certain option list and set of numbers stamped into the body. It just doesn't matter to me. I'll let the collector crowd worry about that stuff while I worry about having fun with my cars.
Yep… I totally agree - except I did pay the premium for my 340 car. On the other hand, it was a very special opportunity beyond simply buying a 340 car.
@DeadDodgeGarage Dale's Demon is different to me because it's a survivor. I do put a premium on survivor cars, even something like a 6 cylinder 4 door. I think it's cool that someone cared enough about a car to keep it in great shape for 50+ years, no matter what's on the build sheet. If it happens to be a 340 Demon (or like my friend's survivor 68 383 Barracuda fastback) then even better! The owner just hasbto understand they are a caretaker or a curator or sorts, and they have a responsibility to the car, which is cool in its own way.
If you take 90 percent of the sheet metal from a solid car to replace it on a rusted out one, would this already be considered a rebody ?
Damn it! I had intended to make entirely this point but got sidetracked and forgot. It’s the grandpa’s axe question… is it still a ‘70 Hemi ‘Cuda when all but the roof structure, one frame rail, and some of the firewall is brand new?
rebody for sure!!@@DeadDodgeGarage
Your 73 Charger wants me I think. Beautiful car.
Not mine - I sold that to a guy who had it painted and put a ton more money and work into it. It’s looking really good now. We are nearly ready to drop the drivetrain in finally.
I don’t care about fender tags either. I don’t need my car to be exactly like it came from the factory with overspray in all the right places. I don’t need a tribute or a clone. I’m not interested in fooling anyone or being fooled. I just want a car that I can set up the way I want it, for me, not for Mecum.
Hell yeah! That’s exactly my thing. I do like a good bit of originality here or there, but only because it’s cool to me - not because anyone else thinks so.
People out there making replicas and clones and I'm over here Frankensteining 3 different trim levels because I like the lights from one, the hood from another, and the interior from the third. 😅
😅 I’ve done that! And I’ll do it again! Make it what you want. Haha.
Thank you!
No problem with "cool driver" cars with added options etc. , but sometimes things are downright insulting. I have a friend with a 1973 Charger SE with acceptable upgrades such as a 440 4 speed but it also has a 1971 R/T hood with louvers, R/T badging, Go-wing, Bumble bee stripes, 72 hideaway grill, orange engine paint with 69 air cleaner and a ton of other little incorrect parts that really make him look like a know nothing dolt because the car was pretty decent before he added the extra incorrect for 73 cosmetics.
Yeah… I’d have to say stay away from the Mopar shows with that one. I see things pretty similar to you - I would definitely prefer these upgrades be more stock, and understated. The R/T badges on a car that couldn’t have been one really make my stomach turn… I saw that on multiple late Challengers at the recent Sunbust show and I just didn’t understand it at all. But I will say, if you’re going to do that with any car, the ‘73 Charger is the perfect blank slate. The one we are building here is absolutely plain outside, single color with no stripes or badges to speak of, but will have an orange 440 and may end up with a hideaway grille - if we can source a good one. It will also have black intake, valve covers, and air cleaner, so it’s definitely not going to win any concours awards. But it will be subtle and understated under the hood, which is definitely my preferred style compared to garish chrome. We also moved the bumpers inward on 71-2 brackets to make it less hideous. I feel like that’s a reasonable move.
My ride is a WP29U2 for those in the know. In my younger days I wanted to put a power bulge hood on it and most people have told me the same. As time passed I realized that the SE models and their premium styling are best left stock. I have seen many fully restored to the tee SE's with the wrong hoods and it kinda detracts from the elegance of the model. On the other hand the WL or WH models look way better with a power bulge hood regardless of originality.
I am in a kind of unique situation. I have a numbers matching 73 Roadrunner 340 and pretty much all original except I have a 318 under the hood (the 340 is sitting in the garage in need of an overhaul). I bought it back in 1979 (yes, it reveals me as old), so it was too new at the time to be anything other than numbers matching. But today it has hail dents, rust, and a few other dings, dents, and imperfections and it needs some mechanical work. The problem is that it really isn't worth enough (yet) to restore without getting underwater really fast. So, for now it's going to remain a "cool survivor driver". It doesn't really look all that bad for a 50 year old car, so I am just going to rebuild it mechanically, and maybe put in some new weather stripping in the doors, etc, and just enjoy the thing.
I have a similar deal with a 73 Challenger Rallye 340, it was bought in the 90s previously modded with a built 440 4 speed combo, 4.10 sure grip, manual steering and brakes. To restore it back to original specs would cost way more than it would be worth. It was a 340 auto, power steering car originally. Currently I'm contemplating making a it road kill type car just to have fun with but I'm getting a bit old to be muscling a heavy beast with all manual drive train. Had quite a few easy driving 318 cars in my youth , wish I had one now .
Go for it there boy enjoy it@@clembob8004
Numbers match is great but I've always built what I like or what the customer wanted.Never claimed anything to be something it's not.
Luckily I don’t have enough money to worry about getting taken. My option codes:
KGP - Krylon Grey Primer, WD2 - Whiskey dents (both quarters), 3MR - 3 Families of Mice Under Rear Seat
🤣 damn right!
Awesome video, par usual
*Per
I’m sure a lot of people have weighed in on this question. Given how 50 year-old Mopars are going to be rusted, where do you draw the line on “restored” or “rebody”? Lol 😅Most of the second gen Chargers being restored today, could be considered a rebody by some people’s standards. I call them restored even though more than half their original sheet metal is new AMD metal panels. Same is true for the A, B and E bodies being brought back to life. The only way to save an old Mopar or any other 50 year-old muscle car is to rebuild the body.
In the mid-1980s I found a unique and very cool 1971 Challenger R/T that was loaded to the max and was an original GY3 Citroen Yella car with white stripes, top and interior. It also had a power sunroof! Turned out it was ordered as a dealer demonstrator.
The car was rusted pretty bad and I knew it needed more than a couple gallons of bondo to make it right. That’s how a lot of old Mopars were restored in the 70s/80s-they were bondo-fied!!
In 1987 I found a very competent body shop willing to do a restoration the right way for me. The body was acid dipped and about half the sheet metal was replaced. No one was restoring an old Mopar like that in that period. Basically Mark Worman could have learned something from this restoration which was completed in 1990. It was rebuilt on a body jig.
There wasn’t any repop sheet metal being made except for the trunk floor and collision repair panels. So I found some NOS panels like the front floor pan, inner fenders and valences. The fenders and trunk lid came from an LA car. I bought full quarters with the rails and trunk extensions from Ted Stephens (that Ted Stephens). The hood came from a just wrecked R/T-SE U code car. The rest of the car’s original metal was kept in place.
I was pretty anal about the whole resto. So I replaced some things that could have been repaired on the body. I bought an NOS grill and badges, space saver and replaced the carpet, upholstery and headliner and top of course.
The interior of the ca r was still all there and nice. It all went back in and is still in the car today. The dash pad was and still is perfect! The original instruments were cleaned and recalibrated, the AM/FM and cassette were serviced and installed. I had Just Dashes recover the door panels. The six way seat adjuster went back in, as well as the console.
Now some people might say it was a rebody. I call it restored and I took pictures of the whole resto process and even the replacement body parts before they were painted. All used parts were acid dipped even though they looked good. I put together a restoration album of the 20 year process and sent it with the car when it was sold.
I was proud of the resto I did on the car and glad I could save it for the hobby. I was writing about the restoration in the late 1980s in MMCI’s club magazine. People were excited to hear about the car and the resto process.
It wound up with a 5 page feature in MCG mag circa 2006-2007. It was again mentioned in the same mag in late 2019 before it went to auction at Kissimmee in Jan. 2020.
I sold the car in 2017 to Tim Wellborn. He sold it in 2020. It recently sold again in 2024 and was bought at Kissimmee by the guys of Mopars5150. They did a CZcams video on their Kissimmee purchases and show. Yes, I was the guy in the photos.😅
There were numerous well-known Mopar aficionados who lusted after the car after it was finished.
If you want to save a car or bring it back, rebuilding the body and restoring the car is the only answer. As long as you don’t mis-represent a car, I am personally good with that. I call this a restored car, not a rebody. A rebody is a car that had its numbers switched out or it was back-halfed with a clip from another car. Those are my thoughts.
I agree. When you’re piecing together a car like that - especially using NOS metal as you did - you are doing your best possible version of rebuilding the car the way the factory did. It’s the grandpa’s axe question. And I don’t know what the answer is. I will be replacing nearly the entire back half of my ‘69 Charger, but as you say, that’s par for the course on them. I don’t see that as a rebody. A rebody is when you take a completely different car and stick another car’s numbers on it, then pretend that it is that car. That’s really what I’m going after here.
I agree when you get a older car like these and they are not original build the car you want, but when the times comes to sell don't cheat someone
The thing about a properly done re body is this. The doner's shell went down the same assembly line at roughly the same time with a different build sheet.Period.
As apposed to rebuilding with brand new sheetmetal stamped out who knows where 40-50 years later. I mean is the firewall that sacrosanct if you've already backhalfed the car from a lesser donor( muttering something about 70's F body GM's).
I completely agree with that, and I wish I had gotten further to my thoughts on it in this video. If a buyer is given that information, I have zero problems with it. I did say that the bodies are all essentially the same. AMD stuff kinda sucks… I’d much prefer factory steel.
The dead Bee is just Mopar's spirit animal being in it's natural habitat: Under the hood of a Mopar lol
I love Mopars, but I doubt I'd buy one with no fender tag. Maybe if it had a good vin and I could get the build sheet. I believe missing a fender tag cuts 40 percent of the value off a car.
Not off a standard car. I mean off a car that is rare because of it's options.
I'm spoiled, in a way. I bought my Mopars when they weren't worth a fortune, so no one was faking them, or the the fakes or tributes were crude and obvious.
Right. Definitely a different time back then… I get what you’re saying, but I bought my Demon with no tag without hesitation. Seeing pictures of the owner standing next to it holding a trophy in 1973 helped. And the window sticker of course. It was really obvious that the car is what he said it is. 40% seems a little high - but yeah, if we’re talking high end collector cars, it really needs to be there. On your standard cruising model, it essentially means nothing. I do like that it’s present on my Charger - but I didn’t even look when I bought it. I didn’t care.
I'm with you on the "rebodies". Nothing pisses me off quicker than slicky boys trying to rip you off
in this, what is supposed to be a fun and relaxing hobby.
At 62, I'm never going to be in a position in life to afford an original hemi or some such, but I have had
my share of "pedigree" Mopars over the decades (original factory performance models), favorites of
which have been late 60's b-bodies - yes, with a 440 of course.
Current example is a '68 GTX named Fred (ask her, I didn't come up with that).
Fred is an original GTX, tags and stamps and all - and not a damn thing in the running gear is original on hiim.
She says he's "pretty" - I say it's been a decade + of reworking the whole damn mess into the "Day 1000"
he is now, but here's the thing:
I drive the car. Regularly. I don't even own a trailer...
Y'all, be straight up with folks in this life please. It's all we really have when we kick the bucket in the end.
- Ed on the Ridge
My thoughts if you want a hemi car do a transplant . It will still be expensive but way below the cost of an original. I see nothing wrong with that as long as it is represented as non-original.
I love it! I don’t think I’ll ever own a real Hemi car either - I want a clone that I can drive the wheels off of. Your car is gorgeous, and I could give a damn what’s original on it. I am all about cars that get used and enjoyed - that’s what I’m in this hobby for.
I love a survivor car. Just left setting for something they never got around to . All the OEM never really been worked on or like your Demon survivor its been worked on but. Right
Me too. I love my Demon for exactly that reason. Sure, little things have been changed here and there, and there are some extra holes in various places. Beyond that basic stuff, the car is nearly all original - scrapes, dings, dents and all. I love it, and would never even briefly consider painting it. I will have the two small rust areas fixed and the paint patched in just those spots some day. But that’s it.
Think about all of the 69 Z28's there are. Then and now.
Yep… and Chevelle SSs. Haha.
Now I am worried that my 65 Valiant with a 170 may not be all original, haha.
I do think I said the words “collector grade car” at least once 😅 no offense - you probably know by now I love all A bodies.
I couldn't find a real '74 Monaco 440 police car, so a '75 318 poverty spec civilian car backdated to a '74 with all the proper cop stuff and a 440 sitting on Shumacher engine mounts is going to make a pretty accurate Bluesmobile. Tribute? Clone? I don't care, but it's still got the original fender tag and VIN tag, so anyone who knows anything is going to see that E44 or the G and know what's going on.
Hey I don’t care either. That sounds awesome! I’d drive the hell out of it. If recent history is anything to go on, I’d probably be drifting it in a field at any available opportunity.
I agree, make it what you want but don't try to fool anyone. I have a 72 Charger SE that came with a 400 engine and vinyl top. I put in a 440 engine, added power bulge hood, chin spoiler, rear spoiler and did not go back with the vinyl top. Still has the ugly quarter windows and the original fender tag, it aint fooling anyone but I like it.
Awesome. Sounds pretty similar to what we’re doing with the ‘73 here, although it’s not an opera window car. Some day I want to turn one of those into a real life Roger Dodger, complete with blown big block…
I think the one year only vertical looking quarter windows (not like the gill fixed quarters of 73-74 SE) look good in a 72 SE. Better than the backwards c pillars of the regular 72 and all 71 Chargers. I have a P code one myself.
I’ve had a few Mopar’s over the years. All performance models. But the one I have now is a very late 70 with a very low production paint option. Everything I’ve done to it can be unbolted and put back to stock.
If it wasn’t a low production paint car. It’d have a 440 and other mods
I have no problem with clones or tributes as long as a seller doesn't try to sell it as the real thing, especially if they want real-thing money. Build what you like, enjoy it, and if somebody says "that's not real" just say "but it looks good going down the street, doesn't it?"
A sure give away on a fake fender tad is if it is screwed in instead of rivited. Chrysler used round headed river to apply the fender tag.
No, that’s completely incorrect. They are screwed in place on these muscle era cars. It is also normal to see tags with one painted screw and a bend on one corner. VIN tags are rosette riveted to the dash - at least from ‘68 on.
@@DeadDodgeGarage you know better than we! I thought the had rounded heads…..
I turned my 318 powered '68 Coronet 440 into a not very accurate 400 powered R/T. I guess it's a tribute car.
"Fun and enjoyable"
Awesome!
My ‘66 Belvedere II was just a rolling chassis when I got it 8 years ago . Was a 273 car so nothing special . Started with a blank canvas and decided to do a sort of super stock tribute with some modern upgrades . Still not finished but she’s more than half way there . Suspension, brakes , fuel system , wiring and 440 hp are done . No interior yet just two bucket seats out of my buddie’s can-am atv ( hey they were free ) restored the dash , steering wheel and column , disc brake conversion up front , big block torsion bars , ss leafs , 3.55 tru trac diff . I can now see the light at the end of tunnel 😂
What do you get when you restore a g-code '71 Challenger to the 'nines' and re-engine it to a 440. What you get is snarky remarks at the local cruise and car show from someone what ain't got no car. So ask me what I think.
What I think is - don’t go to the car shows. Enjoy your stuff for what it is. Screw those guys. You can always go for one of those custom tags that says “I, Galen Govier, do hereby certify that not one piece of this car is original or correct.”
How much does Galen charge for one of tose tags?@@DeadDodgeGarage
Correction, one of THOSE. (grammar police)
A 71 Challenger is a very desirable car no matter what engine it came with and no matter what engine it has now. Only a MORON would criticize your car. If you told me you took out an original 440 six pack an put in a Chevy 350 I might question your choice, but even then I'd love the car.
Yeah , that would be like the guy that installed a late model Challenger grille on a 70 or 71 Challenger that I saw for sale on e-bay@@auteurfiddler8706
They're all cool.
I struggle. .
Scenario 1: old rusty car has 99% of body panels replaced with AMD, NOS or used parts.
Scenario 2. Entire donor car (99%) is used ..
Both brought back a rare classic back to life. Both end results are the same. But opinions differ.. value?.. They're only "original" once. To me a restored car is new again at the time of restoration. The debate goes on...
Hello from Wisconsin
Absolutely. I didn’t even touch on the replacing-every-piece-of-sheet-metal option in this video. It kinda slipped my mind. I agree that using original steel instead of AMD stuff absolutely has its advantages. Like I said - the important part to me in all of this is what the car does. In my eyes, making any of these cars into what you want it to be is cool. The problem comes in when a builder does something like this dishonestly without informing the buyer or auction house, and tries to get real original car money out of it. That’s where the line is for me.
This was why Graveyard cars filmed the first car. It was totalled to the point that only a rebody would really be possible. They did it the the hard way by building it from reproduction parts and filmed it to prove it wasn't a rebody. It took three times as long and cost three times as much money. Is it three times better than the rebody?
Will it be worth three times more?
I don't know. I do know I have my eye on a rare Mopar that would need a rebody to get it going in my life time.
Some times the panel numbers are cut out of a real #'s matching car and welded in to replacement sheet metal. This saves the originality of the car. The company that does this knows the fender tag and broadcast sheet are legit. I've found broadcast sheets under the rear seat in three Chargers.
It’s the grandpa’s axe question. How much of it can you change and still have it be the same car? How about when you weld the numbers into a low level car, then pass it off as the high level car the numbers are associated with? That is what is alleged to have happened with the Challenger in the thumbnail.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I know what you're talking about because I know an expert who inspects cars like this for buyers. He's told me that if the seller knows he's coming and they have something to hide, they will refuse to let him look at it. I think he's told me about that Challenger and others. I was about to buy a car that showed up on the forum and there was a lot of discussion about how the car had to be rebodied. I sent the photos to this expert I know and he was able to validate that it was/is what the seller said it is. He had nothing to gain by verifying it, he was kind enough to respond to my questions. I was going to buy this car but as I was preparing to go get it, the seller decided to raise the price substantially higher than what we had agreed on...should I say he is from NYC?
There is a well known guy who had essentially a basket case Daytona Charger. With the help of experts in Cleveland GA, they brought it back to life. While I understand your grandpa's axe question, I would respond with examples of how few of these cars are still around. If one of my cars were in some catastrophic accident - heaven forbid, and I still had the vin plate, fender tag, and broadcast sheet, should I just declare it dead or take advantage of technology that will save it?
I have a '71 real 'Cuda 4 speed. I bought it from a guy who bought it at a swap meet. it was nearly dead but the VIN was good so he decided to buy it and save it. He has a lot of stuff so was able to replace sheet metal with originals. I bought it as a painted shell. He sold me a date correct original V code 440 Six Pack engine to put in it since the original block was cracked. The seats were shot and ultimately I did most of the interior - and did a better job than a shop thanks to really good CZcams videos (like yours). To see that sweet baby back to life is a joy that is hard to describe. And, no, I don't tell people that it is an original Six Pack car, it is an original 'Cuda 4 speed.
To address your concern, no, I don't agree with deception. I am fortunate enough to know this expert and defer to him anytime I have concerns.
Over the years I have learned that there is a story behind almost every Mopar, which I find fascinating and endearing. Unfortunately there are too many horror stories.
@@richardweyland116 Absolutely. I totally agree that they are worth saving. I don't think there are any 'Cuda parts cars anymore - Among many other cars that used to be throwaways. You would never sell that car and lie to a prospective buyer about what it was done to bring it back. Heck, I bet you would just plain never sell that car. Haha. I am 100% in support of people saving them just like you did. It's when the fraud part come into the equation that this becomes a big problem. If you slap a vin and fender tag from a rusty Hemi car onto a perfect slant 6 car, then say that's the car... it isn't. It's also quite illegal.
The cool driver is a great way to go. You can drive a non-original hemi car at a cost FAR below an original numbers matching hemi cart and enjoy it just as much. The fender tag has nothing to do with how the car drives.
Probably enjoy it more, actually! I hope to have a car just like that in the fleet some day. I had always planned to build one out of my ‘66 Charger.
I think “clones” to an extent are completely fine depending on what you’re cloning. Cars like 1970 cougar eliminator,super bird,or Dayton. I completely understand. I think the clone come into an issue when it’s adding a stripe kit or something very minor to identify as said model. The “v24” is kinda one of those models. Where if you’re a diehard for the scheme (like David did with crop duster) I don’t really see a problem,but when you pass the “clone” off as the real thing for notoriety or wealth there’s a problem.
I respect cloners and purest. Whoever, I respect guys/girls driving and caring about whatever it is they drive significantly more.
That’s exactly it. I’m all for doing it for a car you want to drive and enjoy. It’s when you try to pass it off as genuine for a profit that it becomes a problem.
Well what matter is my base model charger about having the numbers match mostly all original from the factory, build sheet, certa card, vin tag, fender tag, warranty paper work, numbers matching, i new it wasn’t F with.
There will be stuff added that would have been available for a 1968 charger, but not a R/T badge or stripe, because I like the plain Jane look and the 383 is just fine, but if I have my choice of engines if mine didn’t have one or mine blew up, would be a high nickel content 400…..
I love my 383. If it blew up, I’d fix it or find another one I guess. I don’t know anything about 400s having a higher nickel content - but they have much stronger block webbing, at least starting around ‘73ish.
Ahhh I can’t remember we’re I read it now, but I think it was some of the earlier years, I want to say 73 and earlier, have to look it up again if I can find it, but I know and I got this from a book…. "The 1976-1977-1978 blocks for the 400 and 440 are a thin wall casting design. As such they shouldn't be overbored more then.020."
Thanks Jamie
Yes!
Rebodies, that’s why I’m not a big fan of cars that have been done, I won’t say restored, since they never originally had paint on absolutely every surface, and that is how they disguise all those body numbers they have welded into a base car.
Great video!! Would you consider telling me what my tag says?
While I’d be happy to look at it, to decode it, I would have to plug it into one of the online decoding tools, as I don’t have the majority of codes memorized. You might just consider doing that yourself and cut out the middle man! Haha.
I'm with you man make your car yours! And as far as the haters go, FUGM!Somebody's mopars are everything but stock/original...all puns intended
Damn right. This is why I’m not a car show guy. Haha.
Clones are fine if you know what you're getting
It's when they don't say it's a clone and then you find out you get pissed.
You know if it's a LeMans with GTO badges fine
Is it a Cutlass with 442 badges okay fine.
Don't say it's the real deal if it's not.
While I'm not a big fan of restomods you know if you want to take an original motor and put a crate motor in that's fine but tell somebody it is don't just sit there and say it's all numbers matching.
That's why you always want to bring someone knowledgeable if you're going to put a big investment now if you're buying a beater that's a different story to me.
It's too much shoddy shit goes on in the world anymore like that.
I had a friend that bought a Peterbilt and he thought he was getting the vintage one that he wanted he really wanted one of the old round had lighted one's not rectangular prior to 1983.
Well he didn't do his math and he found out the guy that owned it was actually an 89 and they just put a bunch of different things on it so I guess you live and learn it looked like a vintage roundhead lighted classic early eighties Pete but it wasn't.
See that the in guitar world a lot to unfortunately 🎸🎸🤬
Have a good weekend 🍻Cheers DDG
Exactly what you said - it’s where fraud and deceit enter the picture that I have big problems. I could care less what a car was born as and then built into to suit the owner’s taste. I think that’s awesome - and it some cases, way cooler than stock. But now that I’m a little older I appreciate a nice factory slant six car too.
Build it the way you want,as long as you don't try to rip someone off who cares what you do to your own car as long as you stay within the law, the VIN number will always be on it anyway and that will tell what it was in the beginning
Exactly!
great content there jamie.. i like a car safe to drive, not a trailer queen, mancave eye candy,or rich collecter stuffed away in never gonna be seen again lands unknown.... build it the way you like enjoy,,, drive, burnout, not worry about a paint chip.. they were drivers first as all!! gear heads will agree...collectors dont have the same gene set as car nuts., gear heads .. enjoy the vehicle you love!!!
Damn right! My thoughts exactly. Sure, I love a pretty old car as much as the next guy… but getting it out and doing stuff with it is so much more important to me.
remove fender tag weight reduction!
Oh hell yeah!
I'm lucky. No one cares about a '67 270 Dart and I'm not going to try to pass it off as a GT, so I'm just sticking in a nicely built 360 magnum to replace the 273. I will probably keep the 273 in case someday someone wants to put it back to original. I did put the 68 GTS hood on it, cuz I like 'em, but not putting any GT or GTS badges on it. I don't get trying to pass your car off as something it isn't.
Cool to build, drive, and own a clone; total unethical to sell and pass off a clone as the real thing … but it happens all too often! Buyer beware! I do agree with you, though. I am building a 64 Barracuda project as a “budget build”. From what I can determine, the body tag literally rusted away (all that was left of the body tag that remained was a bit of a rusted metal “washer” around the two screws that one held the tag onto the inner fender). My car was originally a 273 V8 with a pushbutton AT. Both long gone. It’s going to become a 225 slant six with a floor shifter 904 (unless I can come up with everything needed to make it a 4 speed “on the cheap”; which seems highly unlikely! It does not now, nor will it ever under my guardianship, have a body tag … faux or otherwise. Do I care? Nope!
love your channel
Thank you!
I agree.
I'm restoring a 71 scamp it had a 6 cylinder and auto I'm installing a new rebuilt 354 hemi 10/1 and a 4 speed painting the whole car hemi orange that engine has cost me about 8000 building.its ridiculous how much parts are
Parts are nuts, but I love everything about that project.
My 73 charger Vin number will always say 318 but I don't care it will have the 400 that is in it now (unless I find a better big block) neither will i mess with the fender tag, I am building it for my own fun and if (i probably never will) sell it i will tell the person that it was a 318car to begin with, no harm no foul.
What about custom builds? Take a Frame and bundle from it?
Custom stuff is a whole different ball game. I’ve shared my thoughts on that kind of stuff quite a bit in various videos. To each their own.
Even 318 Chargers are still going up in value and are in demand. Many are being converted in to Hellcat restomods that sell for $$$. An expert can tell if the fender tag has been manufactured. In the Mopar world, clones are worth a lot because the genuine vehicles are so expensive. If someone is trying to pass off a clone as an original, that's not a cool thing to do and an expert can tell the difference. I could think of another expert who isn't as cranky as the guys you mention.
Right. That’s kind of the whole problem. I have very knowledgeable people in my camp who aren’t too grumpy. Haha.
All motor is cool 😎
I hear ya...why I gravitate to Slant cars...no one cares about them.
But alas...my '61 Pioneer 2-door postie was born with a Slant, and has a '64 Slant in it. Runs fine, yet I located one out of a '61 Seneca within driving distance to make it "original." I'm on the fence whether i should bust out with the $200 to get it. I may just paint the truck engine I have yellow and throw that in to make it more anti-original. LOL, we all have our sickness...mine is a little more affordable than the Hemi guys (though we run the same spark plug tubes).
BTW, thanks for informing folks who unlike us do care, and thus could easily get hornswoggled buying a fake car.
Ohh that sounds cool though. As far as original type slant or truck engine painted yellow… whatever is your pleasure. Haha. Some people take engine color really seriously. I did recently repaint the one in my Charger to the factory turquoise, so there’s that. It’s also a factory big block ‘68 Charger though. My performance engine builds have all been Chrysler Red for ages. I love it. Good way to figure out if I’ve been there or not 😅
@@DeadDodgeGarage Yes, it's liberating having cool stuff, but stuff no one really cares about...Yet. I feel like I should get this '61 engine and stash it in the event that the market all of a sudden thinks original Slant cars are worth something, LOL. My first FL car was a '60 Seneca 4-door Slant beater I paid $70 for (1986), and the seller thought I was a sucker.
The Slant in my Swepty was originally yellow, and someone painted it black, probably the shop that rebuilt the engine years ago.
You hit the nail on the head...Do what makes you happy, and don't be a dick and dupe someone for profit.
Again, thanks for the vids. This is one of my fave car channels.
I would not replace one slant with another to make it more original, just if the first one was bad. I would just paint it original to the year and model paint.
I was telling my car buddy that my 73 'cuda got about 7 mpg when used for LA commuting. And it was all stock and I drove it gently. When I drove a 2500 Diesel I actually saved a lot in fuel costs.
He was shocked but I told him my big block Mopars got even worse mileage used the same way. So I wasn't expecting much.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder what a slant six would do in stop and go commuting.
@@auteurfiddler8706 Sage suggestion, and probably what i will do to get this thing up initially. Already found the proper carb to replace the Holly 1920 (which I hate anyway). I may just get this one to have it. i am also considering the idea of building a period-correct hot-rod Slant, anyway. The idea of using my 1960-1961 truck Slant for that appeals to me, and they have some better components. It all comes back to the side note of this video, which is "build it how you like it." A truck-yellow Slant with an Offy dual-carb set-up under the hood of a spring green '61 Pioneer seems like a good idea.
"What's that 🐝 doing there".
You always catch my favorite bits. Haha.
All are good when honesty is present. (Hahaha, honesty!) Fraud is not at all cool....
Yeah, that… haha.
Ahhh, the joys of owning the 'crap' cars- the years without 'cool' features, go to an event & enjoy.
(You know Jamies voice for this character)
"You Ruined It!!, ROLLCAGE!!! FUEL CELL!!!, You should have left it STOCK!!!, drum brakes, 2 barrel 273, and single exhaust were PERFECT!!!- and it's the WRONG COLOR, TOO!!"
Yup, he read the fender tag- surprised the he didn't say something about how incredibly valuable the huge rear window was, too.....
Haaahaha… yeah, sounds about right.
@@DeadDodgeGarage That was at a local 'all mopar' cruise-in long ago.
Those 'totally stock per the fender tag" guys were on a crusade- all they really did was tick people off.
The ex-WSP 440 swapped B bodies, the 'white hat special' 'Cuda with wrong paint, interior, and engine- went bananas on the owners.
This hobby is supposed to be fun!.
On 68 and older mopars the vin doesn't match the radiator and rear trunk lip numbers.
I say build them for fun. Who can afford those rare desirable cars anyway?
No, that isn’t the VIN - it’s the VON, which can only be matched to the fender tag. A small but important detail for those older cars.
got a 68 fast back barracuda in the works, she was wrecked and slowly melting back into earth when i saved her. Shes going to be a very bad fish very soon.
Outstanding! I need to get back to work on my ‘67 instead of letting it rot in the driveway 😭
A cool driver please!
Damn right!
Everything is cool
I say buy a beater n just drive the crap out of it n eatin corn dogs
All cars are cool
Damn right!
I made it! What's for lunch? Good thing it wasn't roast Mopar.
Headaches and more coffee, probably
Seeing as I made my car into a clone of the quinton ‘death proof’ car.
So… my opinion is unvalid😂😂😂
Oh, your opinion is very, very valid. I have long wanted to do that… I used to have a skull and cross bolts decal in the back window of my Swinger. Just as a little note of aspiration… my ‘68 is too damn nice. Someone said in the comments on the ‘69 Charger video from last week that every Charger absolutely needs to be restored to factory condition - and I couldn’t disagree more…
Personally I really don't care as long as I like it because I'll never have the money to buy the "real thing"
I dont mind if a 15.000 Dollar hemi cuda is rebody when i drive it in winter .....hahahaha
What do you call it when you build something cool that never existed. I’m taking a 66 Valiant Signet convertible and turning it into a 66 barracuda convertible. I call it the car that should’ve been.
You call it a party, I think. Haha.
@@DeadDodgeGarage it’s gonna be a 372 stroker with a 4 speed. So a party it shall be.
I hate the rust monster. I don’t like hearing that it’s eating my car! Lol
I apologize. It gets worse when you own 20 of them 😅
👊🏻
I like stock cars. But that's just me.
bottom line don't be a crook. thanks for the education.
As long as your not trying to scam folks,,,I don't really care!!
Bingo!
Is having a fender tag attached with metal screws, may be a flag? Weren’t most fender tags attached with rivets?
No. They were screwed in place - at least in the muscle car years. And although this varies by plant, seeing them with a bent corner and only one painted screw like on my ‘68 is common, because they were attached, but bent up to allow painting underneath the tag.
No sir, fender tag screwed on, vin tag riveted
Absolutely screwed on the vin was a special on the dash was a special pop rivet