How to Design A Commander Deck
Vložit
- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- #mtg #thetrinketmage #trinketmage
Patreon:
/ thetrinketmage
New art, new look, new music! Let me know what you think of the new asthetic!
Channel Art by Beevuu:
Insta: / beevuu
Twitter: / beevuu
Music Credits:
"Tokyo Music Walker - One Summer’s Eve" is is under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) license.
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
/ @tokyomusicwalker4038
"Cosimo Fogg - Jazzaddicts" is under a Creative Commons license (CC-BY) 3.0.
/ cosimo-fogg
"Tokyo Music Walker - Early Summer" is is under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) license.
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
/ @tokyomusicwalker4038
Music promoted by BreakingCopyrigh: / @breakingcopyright - Hry
How i build a deck, step 1: throw something together on edhrec, step 2: i show my friend whos been playing for 15+ years, he is disgusted then fixes it. Step 3: Done
Kinda me lol
Haha same. Build deck then tweak with edhrec. Get my ass handed to me by my much more veteran friends in our weekly match, then take notes of what they'd adjust.
Really funny seeing this pov lol, I’m the vet who gets handed the edhrec pile, and my friends always say that this is their plan XD
😂😂 i feel like everyone has that friend that has the magic touch. That 1 friend that just knows how to streamline your idea after you have a rough "draft" varient
Lol
Great points here! I think each method has pitfalls. The first method, sideways has more in common with bottom up than top down. This is because both are heavily centered around a foundation of a theme and the commander is an afterthought. However, the theme in bottom up is based around the game and the theme in "sideways" building is based on flavor and fun, rather than the actual game. I would agree it is inherently weaker, but it's possible to make a great deck. The biggest pitfalls with bottom up are picking a weak theme, which might as well be "sideways" deck building or picking a random commander just because you like them and they help the colors. To me, the point of commander is having a Commander, so top down really makes sense as the preferred method, but one must make sure the deck plays without the commander. My scarecrows deck plays like table police when my commander is out, but functions as 5 color artifact combos without the Reaper King and it is perfectly fun and serviceable. But I agree it is nice to see more bottom up building, especially for people who are way too salty.
me
Top down or bottom up.... is it too much to ask for both?
Select a Commander, make a decision about which theme works best with that commander. Then build 99 cards bottum-up on that theme in those colours.
If you want some additional commander synergy just take a second pass through the 99 & see if there are any cards that could be cut in favour of something more synergistic: you'll have a much more critical eye when you actively have to cut a card to push extra commander synergy into the deck.
I've been doing this lately, I find a commander that I like, then build a deck bottom up to suit. I stay away from common themes. Eg I built a breya deck, I focused on a blink and direct damage theme. It plays well with or without breya, but built with breya in mind.
I think this method had been my most successful overall. The strategy is, find a commander I zen with, then work out a theme that that commander can assist, THEN build that. I do use top down sometimes but Yea those do seem to whiff more often.
I just made a comment about doing exactly this! Plan on doing it a lot in future!
This is the best of both methods imo, sure you could get more unique decks bottom up but there's a chance there aren't commanders you like for your decks theme, even if there's synergy.
This is what I typically do. Find a commander in colors I want, see what I want to do with it, and then build a deck that runs along the same/similar themes to that idea. I've never really understood the idea of only doing one or the other since I just do both lol
Bottom-up construction is something I've done a tiny bit of in the past, but moreso just to find a commander to play with. However, a few months ago I watched that Salubrious Snail video about making midrange decks, and it's kind of like a bottom-up deck design philosophy. The gist is that you look at your commander not as a card to build around but rather a card that will always be in your opening hand, using that to help cover any weakness your deck might have. Using this strategy, I made an Elfball deck online that can jam out a ton of mana pretty easily, but since they're all Elves, they tend to be pretty cheap and there aren't that many outlets. The commander I chose to fix that problem? Zacama. Had I looked at Zacama first and tried to build down from there, I don't think Elf Tribal would have been my first thought. It may not have even occurred to me. But it made for a cool concept!
Flavorwise you got a tribe of elves worshipping Zacama, like the Naya elves worshipping gargantua.
a couple weeks ago my bf and I tried something and had a blast- we pulled up an online random movie picker and built commander decks based on the movies we picked! I got "Tall Girl" and built a rainbow superfriends deck comprised entirely of tall women. My boyfriend got the movie "Edward Scissorhands" and built a sword-of deck that equips every single sword to his commander named Edgar. we both spent a few hours building what turned out to be super powerful decks and had an incredibly fun couple of games. 10/10 experience I would highly recommend doing this with friends!
Oh man tall girl what a film
please can i get decklists 🙏
I never really thought about it that way. I realized I've always been a top-down player bc I like gimmicky commanders and playing around them. But sometimes I'd have games where my commander was destroyed and I had a really stale play experience after. This vid helped me re-evaluate my decks for sure, to atleast guarentee I can "do the thing" with my deck and have fun, regardless of winning/losing!
I hadn't played for over 20 years and just got back into Magic last summer and started playing EDH. I have some decks I basically net decked, but trying to brew my own now so i found this very helpful. Thanks!
Good luck with your deck building and welcome back to the game! Stay tuned I’ve got lots more deck building advice coming up!
I was in the same boat just over a year ago - left around Onslaught. It's a good time, and there's a lot of exciting discovery out there.
Net deck. Now there's a term I haven't heard in... years.
I’m right there with you buddy, I quit around Urzas Saga and just now got back in with the release of the Clue themed set. Imagine my shock when NOBODY in my local card shop had a 60 card duel deck and they all had these ginormous 100 card decks and you can only have 1 of each card? Seems like a marketing ploy to sell more cards.
that is is gonna be a shock when you realize most players don't even have a 60 card deck anymore. EDH was made by players though which is pretty sweet!@@rootfish2671
step 1: 100 basic lands 20 of each color. step 2: replace one with sliver overlord. step 3: ??? step 4: win every time
step 1: 99 mountains, step 2: Ashling, step 3: get forgotten mid game, step 4: uhhhhh, ka-boom?
@@itslilith2106 scam win speedrun
I love it when you come accross a video that perfectly explains the problems you've been having in deck building! Great vid :)
Ha, I'm over halfway through making a Rule 0 metal deck! All the cards have names of metal bands/metal songs or a metal reference.
I got Tezzeret, Master of Metal as the commander, then cards such as Deicide, Suffocation, Killswitch, Iron Maiden, Roots, Puppet Master, all the cards with Slayer in the title, Lord of the Pit and all creatures with Embalm. Cos they make White Zombies 🤘
Tezzeret master of metal is perfect for that!
So many creatures in magic look like GWAR characters
This is actually really solid advice. Great vid.
Thanks!
I love your take and really wish more commander players were like this. I feel like the over abundance of busted precon commanders have turned everyone into top down players that get bent out of shape when you remove their kill on sight commanders that their decks NEED in play. Very refreshing to see other people with a similar viewpoint to me.
Bottom up might result in a more effective deck, but it also results in the most common version of the theme you've chosen, and the commander you pick will often end up barely related to the rest of the deck. At that point, you're not really playing "commander", you're just playing 99 card singleton with a bonus card. Yes, Distorting Wake is bad even in a Hinata deck, but it feels much more like a Hinata card than the alternative multibounce options do, and in turn makes it feel more like you're playing with/against a "Hinata deck", as opposed to a standard WUR deck that happens to sometimes have Hinata out. The goal of any game is to have fun, and unless you're the kind of person who just enjoys winning, the most fun you're going to have is going to come from finding the right balance point between commander-centric synergy, broader thematic/subthematic synergy, and basic power level. The strongest possible deck is rarely the most fun possible deck. The right power level is the power level that allows you to win a reasonable proportion of the time while sacrificing the minimum deck identity.
Ive taken a blend as of recent with my deck building. My last deck was built with the idea “i want to make a companion deck that utilizes partner commanders, thus i can say i have a 3 commander commander deck”. From there, i took that idea, and came to the conclusion that i want my deck to generate a ton of mana, that way I could cast my companion whenever i desired. This lead me to use one of the green companions, and ultimantly i felt keruga to be the most fun pick for the deck. Theme in mind, rather than looking for deck pieces, i went looking for commanders, and stumbled upon erinis and a blue background. Thus, my simic self mill/ landfall deck all in service of my hippo overlord was born. And the deck is so bonkers good. Underplayed commanders mean you can monilith the commander a bit, since no one is going to remove a commander who has done nothing for 4 turns when a prosper deck is across the table… but my deck is so crazy that by turn 7 i tend to run out of basic lands in my deck (all 19)
Love the skitarii look of the new avatar, great video as always!
This is EXACTLY what i wanted. I just started to build a deck to play with some buddies after being out for a while. I really wanted the deck to function without the commander.
I settled on OTJ's olivia pre-con and upgraded it. I enjoy the outlaw theme and when in doubt i cam still slam them sideways for a kill or do something like revel in riches for a win.
I like the the new avatar and also, building bottom up decks! It makes for a more interesting deckbuilding process, for one thing.
Excellent video! I saw this recently with my brother building a deck that could synergize with some favorite enchantments of his: Death's Presence, Feed the Pack, and Gutter Grime. He ended up picking Skullbriar as the commander not as a voltron but as value town for those synergies in a recursion-heavy deck. Bottom-up building makes for some cool concepts that actually work in gameplay! You explained the concept very well.
Great video. Will be sharing this to multiple people.
this video helped me out a ton with one of my recent decks! I was doing top to bottom, but playtesting was going awful, so I recently rebuilt it bottom to top and now its more consistent and honestly better.
I never thought about it like this. Very helpful video, thank you.
Love the advice and the new sprite!
One major pitfall with bottom-up deck building is the lack of a commander-specific color identity from the outset. This often leads to 4 and 5-color decks that are even more reliant on Treasure tokens than on their commander. Regardless of how you feel about Treasures, token-hate is starting to give graveyard-hate a run for its money.
aye, new avatar looking clean man! great upload as always
This was great insight - I was so focused on glorifying my Commander that I forget the other 99 cards are on the main stage most of the time! Thanks :)
Lovin the new look!
I love your new avatar! Also, Great video! I find myself doing bottom-up deck more often now with my local commander league.
I appreciate the consistency of bottom up design, but I'm rarely inspired to build a new deck until I see a commander that I jive with enough to take the time to build. I'm willing to accept the feast or famine gameplay, but I do try to ensure there are still ways to win even if my commander becomes unavailable.
Also the new avatar looks good. It kinda reminds me of the style of commander stickers I get on Etsy for all my deck boxes from MegaChibiTheGatherin
Definitely the same here
I have been trying to build a mardu goad deck for a few months and this was a huge help.
One of my recent favorite bottom up designs was with mutate and Indominus rex. Like "hey you know how Slippery boggle is a really great mutate target? well what if it was huge and indestructible as well? *chef's kiss*
Good points, and definitely a valid way to build decks. In general, I have found that good commander decks use a little of both ways of thinking, and the bottom-up and top-down processes feed into each other.
For example, I might pick a commander first, which lets me start finding synergy pieces. Then, I figure out the best synergy pieces that fit together, and that lets me establish a theme. That might make me reconsider my commander, or fight harder for the commander to work, which brings me back to examining the deck pieces.
I've been working on Ommath, Locus of Creation for a long while now, but this is how I got to where I am in the deck construction process.
I started by choosing how many Landfall triggers I wanted to get each turn since Omnath caps at three triggers total per turn. I've rested on two per turn since the injection of mana is the strongest of the three triggers.
Then I looked up the Landfall triggers that would benefit from triggering multiple times in a turn, which happen to be token generators, big/wide buffing effects, card advantage, and mana acceleration. I noticed that among my Landfall triggers was Nissa from MOM: Aftermath. Who has an additional effect to grab a random Elf or Elemental from my deck and put it into my hand upon the second Landfall trigger each turn.
This got me looking at my creature types, and noticed that I have a good quantity of Elves and Elementals. Locus of Rage and Locus of the Roil care about Elementals, so I decided I would have an Elemental sub-theme along with my main Landfall theme.
All of this was discovered just from my own curiosity. I stopped using EDHRec a good few years ago, so these were all discoveries I made in the deck construction process.
This is a pretty nice video. And I do like the sprites, I came here pretty much because I spotted the skitarii.
I've honestly done a bit of all three (mostly the latter two). Top down works really well for commanders that essentially BEG to be the crux of the deck and just by design are essentially needed to make the deck function just by what they do (Prosper for example, or Tawnos Solemn Survivor) but it's almost a requirement that a lot more of the deck is going to need to consist of a solid protection suite to keep your commander alive or reduce the impact of the tax (flicker/blinks, fake your death effects in black, hexproof/indestructible effects, command beacon/netherborn altar effects, etc). The bottom up tends to be a lot more self sufficient but also tend to be a bit more vague and nebulous in terms of optimal ways to pilot the deck, which can be a bit of a downside for newer players or if you want an extremely streamlined play pattern.
Fantastic video, a massive helping hand! :)
I actually really love building decks from the side they can be so much fun added bonus it could also become a bodem up built deck as well
I just want to cast Cruel Ultimatum, Villainous Wealth, and Maelstrom Nexus
Well thought out video, subscribed
I don't think I've ever built a deck that was commander first until very recently. I built a Kardur deck because I found Eater of Days, and the idea of just, jamming Kardur, then dropping eater of days and leaving the table for a couple rounds made me laugh so hard that I built it.
Did a demon subtheme, and now I have a demon deck that makes me overwhelmingly happy and pulls off some nasty Shenans, and my commander functions mostly as a "the board is getting weird, why don't you all fight about it" card. It's almost a teferi's protection if you time it right.
One of my favourite bottom-up designed decks was I wanted to make a Gruul deck that made heavy use of extra combats and damage multipliers. I could have gone for a typical gruul value engine commander, but I decided to go with Anzrag the Quake Mole, and have a slight Voltron subtheme. Once my board is set up, I could swing anzrag at someone with a ton of weak creatures, whilst sending the main board at an empty enemy, and because of Anzrag's ability being a one-time "get as many combats as your opponents have creatures to block anzrag" ability, he really helped the deck
Bottom up design is exactly why I sit on deck ideas for years.
Currently I am waiting on a synergistic commander that lets me play cards from your library. I'd like to be in grixis so I have access to more cards that do this thing, but a good commander for it was printed in dimir, so I'm basically considering options.
Definitely love to build this way
One of my favorite ways to build decks is a 'secret tribal' deck. Basically I try figuring out what a tribe is 'good at' and then choose commanders who I think can compliment that theme. One of my favorites is my Reyhan/Alena Hydra Deck. Basically I dump my mana into X spells for Hydras, which will enter with huge power that'll give me mana off of Alena. Right now I'm trying to figure out a partner build using Tormod for a Skeleton Deck. Great video btw!
Nice video ! Personnally I have my own way of making my commander decks. It's not optimal but it gives a lot of punch. And I'll give the name of the sledge strategy juste because it's fun.
You start as a top down commander (you go down the hill with your sludge) when you build it, you take your commander then you put every cards that work with it in your deck. Then you select your cards so that you get around 63-64 nonland (generally with around 10 ramp, 10 draws, 2-3 boardwipe that all work with the commander).
Every good cards that were cut are put aside.
Then you start doing bottom up (you take your sludge to the top), by taking every cards you've put in the deck and think "does this work with another card in the deck, like at least 2 or 3, if my commander wasn't there".
Then once you're finished cutting cards, you do the top down all over again (with less cards to add of course)
Edit : if there is not enough cards that work with each other, the method doesn't work and you're commander is too useful for the strategy. In this case I put a lot of protection for my commander or ways to get it back since he's that much of the center of the strategy
Perfect timing on this video! I've been struggling with a deck I've been working on a human tribal that's a mix between voltron and token creatures acting as cannon fodder blockers while my big powerful (highly synergistic) creatures swing for massive damage.its been a real pain in the ass but it's getting there.
Efit: subbed btw
I only just started playing a couple of months ago. I bought a precon that came with Imprisoned in the Moon and Darksteel Mutation. I get the best reactions when I stick them on someone's commander and their whole world crumbles.
My first custom commander deck ( a solid 7) was somehow all of these at once. I went in knowing I wanted to do wolf tribal, and knowing Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves was going to be my commander as I drew him years prior and always wanted to use him in a deck, but I also had a bunch of specific cards I wanted to use. The deck ended up being a Token Wolf Tribal, where I make a ton of wolves, pump them up, and murder everyone. It also have my favorite infinite combo in all of magic
Never seen one of your videos before this one, but I really do like the spritework.
My method is:
1) Select commander
2) Determine the win condition
3) Add a suite of draw, ramp, and removal in my colors that either synergize with my commander, play into my win condition, or are too good to pass up
4) Decide 3-4 things the deck needs to be able to do in order to satisfy its win condition, and add a suite of cards that do that for each thing
5) Add a suite of "fun cards," cards that just synergize extremely well with the commander but don't fall into another category, pet cards I never leave home without, or fun, bombastic cards that do cool things.
6) Add lands. I usually shoot for an even split of basics, mana fixing, and utility lands. I do not have the budget for fast mana bases.
These are great tips for beginning players like myself I really enjoyed the advice
Great video. I love building top down for obvious reasons, but the strongest decks are without a doubt the bottom up. It's a fine balance.
Since the commander is effectively a guranteed card in hand you can use it to shore up a weakness or free up deck slots. For example Piru is a boardwipe so you can avoid running (m)any others or use it to cover a weakness to burn decks.
i tend to go somewhere between top down and bottom up, where i start with some regular cards i like and find other cards that work well with them, then find a commander that supports or is supported by those cards, then finish the deck with cards that work well with the commander
Bottom up, that’s the way I like to…. Uh… build commander decks
I think that top-down works, so long as you are willing to dedicate slots to commander protection. I run a Niv deck, and that can be rough because people see him hit the board, and you usually dont get to untap before he's gone. However, he is the engine that drives that deck. So, to make sure he stays on the board, I have a good 6-7 slots dedicated to just cards that will keep him on the there, and i dont play him until i get a card in hand that i can use for protection. I have an anhelo deck that runs similarly, although tbf in that case, Anhelo just makes my big scary spells bigger and scarier, so its less crucial that he hits the board, and he doesnt have the same infamy as Niv. Keeping in mind the way people perceive certain cards and commanders, even when deckbuilding, is really important, and i think it can make a top-down style work.
This has been exactly my experience with Vorinclex, MR.
I’m running Boots, Greaves, Commander’s Plate (A very kind LGS owner threw it in with a 200+$ order when I mentioned I wanted one but couldn’t justify the expense), Tamiyo’s, Heroic Intervention, Snakeskin Veil, Silkguard (Kamigawa Strive that also Hexproofs everything Modified, and protects Equips/Auras), and Smuggler’s Surprise.
My deck will function just fine if he goes, but I know he’s KoS and have to plan for the enmity of the entire table.
This was a great video! I tend to do all 3 of these at different times. Sometimes a mix of both in the same deck. For example right now I'm building Tom Bombadil Sagas and Polukranos Hydras. Both of these are both top down and bottom up in a way. I'm building a theme around my commander's payoff. But the theme can exist on its own. But sometimes I just like to have a theme. So like I also have a 4 color Aragorn deck that is historic tribal but the theme is "weird or hard to pronounce card names." I'm also building a 5c "Universes Beyond" tribal deck that could care less if the commanders are on the field.
I'm definitely going to try this method. I started making a list of my favorite cards, and landed on esper enchantments. Zur the enchanter is too big a removal target, but Zur2 can protect my enchantments, and the deck doesn't fold if he gets removed. I like this idea a lot.
I mean one thing about top down building is that it really lets you build with weird random cards you won’t see anywhere else which in my opinion is a good thing because you get to use a lot more unique stuff and it’s fun to do that and you can’t really see anywhere else
I sort of agree but you can do the same with bottom up. I’m not arguing for goodstuff decks
@@thetrinketmageand this is where you differ from every other video I've seen talking about building decks bottom up
Think it's worth mentioning as an extension of bottom up design - you can further refine your cards by picking a strategy as well. Like if you're building auras you can go for an aggro strategy with lots of pumps and keywords, or a more midrange strategy with lots of repeatable auras (rancor etc) to trigger enchantresses over and over. Great vid!
Yes, but sometimes that's just the risk I am willing to take. Part of the fun of running different commanders is getting the opportunity to run cards that are generally bad in other decks. Like, there's probably numerous better artifact/enchantment destruction spells I could be running over Seal of Primordium in my Muldrotha deck, but it's really cool to get good value out of a random card I had that I would have otherwise never used. It does suck that my deck's power level takes a hit whenever the commander isn't out, but that's why I've got to treat it like is something worth keeping out. If my commander's getting pinged off the table so many times that I can't summon it anymore, then it's clearly my fault for not playing in a way that allows me to protect what I consider a important part of my strategy.
For a while now I've been building decks from the top-down or a mix of top-down and bottom-up, either going for the same tribe the commander have or the theme it provides.
Bottom to top is a great way for newbies to construct better decks. I agree. I have a 5C "Detectives tribal" with Ramos as the Commander. He is a good card by itself, and the fact that he can remove counters to give you mana to use the clues or other things is amazing.
Sorta also a Top Down design, but starting at a different point is when you build around a secret Commander in the 99. Usually a card that isn't allowed to be in the Command Zone normally and then you chose cards around that and how to get your secret commander into play reliably and keep it there.
I love secret commanders! I’ve made a few decks with them watch my Tawnos deck tech to see one
my favorite hidden commander is the enchantment wild pair
I like a mix of top and bottom, one of my favorite decks, Jon Irenicus Shattered One, started with me seeing I had a lot of black/blue control cards. I found a cool/fun comander in those colors, then went top down, looking for creatures that have fun interactions with Jon. Now I give my friends ridiculous fun cards and still control the flow of the game.
My favourite decks are goofy tribal decks that always start by going on scryfall to just search up that goofy theme, so this really resonated with how I brew
A deck i really want to play around with is the Infinite Armory- equipment artifacts and cards that synergize off having equipment or allow you to get the armory out.
I prefer top-up deck design. It's where you pick Derevi as your commander, build entirely around her, and never get punished for it.
While I definitely agree that bottom up decks are more consistent, as I’ve been making more of those style decks recently, I also find they lack that “wow” factor specifically unique to commander decks. Your deck does a thing well and it does it great, that’s cool. But so is seeing some random draft shaft card that does nothing on its own suddenly win somebody the game because the group was focused on other scarier threats then their commander at the table.
I don’t think that wow factor is unique to top down design. When I say bottom up is more consistent it means it’s less feast or famine. Urza can be designed top down and have zero wow factor
I'd argue that that's just something you can implement in the deck after the fact? Whereas if you do it top down you might cram the deck with too many of those effects vs if you had to remove other functional cards to fit in the unique cards
@@Ultinuc I can agree with that point and is something I tend to do with my bottom up decks.
I think mainly what I was focused on is something I find myself seeing more and more is commander decks that have nothing to do with the commander and just run as many staples in the colors they choose as they can when there are so many interesting legendary creatures to build around in this format.
Now of course there is complications like if the colors you want to go in don't inherently support your strategy or if you are trying to go for a more hidden commander deck but even then there tend to be ways to have your commander do something meaningful if you ever get to casting them or have sneaky hidden synergy of their own.
I think bottom up is good, but people might already have a commander in mind, so this is what I would do. I would choose a commander and build something around it, then I would add cards that can help get to the main strategy of the deck, and finally I would add in the lands and ramp cards. This is similar to the top down strategy, but it could end up with a better structure.
Totally agree! ❤ I have a Dynaheir deck that is built around artifact shinenigans. The only reason I play dynaheir is to make my artificers tap instantly but the deck can play perfectly without! (It's a secret osgir deck).
I built two of my favorite decks, Hogaak and Niv Mixzet Reborn, as a combination of both top down and bottom up. Hogaak was:"Big, likes big graveyard, like lots of bodies" so I built a combination of go wide/go tall centered around graveyard synergy. My Niv Mizzet Riborn deck was built with a limit on non 2 color cards, it has 6 support artifacts, 36/37 lands, and every other card is a 2 color card, with a minimum of 4/5 of each pair. Both decks play just fine without their commander, but go over the top with them.
I did a hybrid of this. My Armix|Rebbec deck started as top-down (pulled a Rebbec and started evil laughing) then tried to build around Artifact synergy. Eventually settled on Armix because he is solid as a removal tool and plus the challenge of "Artifacts, No Blue" means I get to run weird tools
I would note that for bottom up, you can design the deck such that the comander fixes some problem with the deck, like with the comanders for card draw, you could put a lot less draw in the deck and focus on what you want to do
i am very casual, but my method usually is a balance between top down and bottom up. the commander is kept in mind, but the commander is there to set the theme for the deck, rather than rely on him. a lot of the time, i fall into combo decks like Niv-Mizzet draw combos or like when I started building for Mahadi and found stuff like Supernatural Stamina and Feign Death giving infinite sac capability on a single creature. but- i'm seeing other value as well in things like Arahbo decks wanting cat tribal or Morska simply enabling and benefiting from more of a draw value deck than an explosive draw your entire deck deck like Niv-Mizzet.
Alternate method. The layering method.
You find a theme and idea around a kinda sideways method. You then go top down on it to help tune it. Maybe even include some play testing.
Then bottom up it. If you do it properly you can also use also use other tools to figure out draw rates for combos and other consistency based things as well as mana requirements and best methods of color splits.
Using this method for a kinda unusual and fringe marchese the black rose deck.
Idea is control but not typical grixis control. And based around rogues and a few party cards despite not being the best mechanic as far as party goes.
Goblins and fae mixed in. And some support from out side creatures.
Idea is try and have a wide array of buffers and ways to generate counters. And making use of flicker blur phase and sac outlets for enter the battlefield effects.
Gonna be doing a bunch of stealing with some cards. But also heavy mill and copying spells and making use of grave retrieval.
Idea is a bit of a hyper control and combo deck. But based around an aggro form of control and controlling multiple aspects of the game. Krenko combos for goblin tokens. Simmalacrum combos for land ramp heavy. Demonic tutor and the creature version along with goblin recruiter and some other tutors for cool set up combos.
Sengir for making use of skirk prospector and palishak mons sac outlet damage combos with krenko. Like 10 goblins and a dirty combo.
Lots of legendary creatures. But a bit of a competitive level fringe deck. Some popular and commonly used cards but in a bit of a fringe aspect.
Few interesting combos. But a lot of mill and exile. Ability to steal lands and table wipe by turn 8 on perfect opening hand. But also built to handle long game and not going for the most perfect uber win fast plays.
Fae trickery on like a horror movie and old school medieval fairy tales type vibes. Bringing some goblins and vampires and horrors.
But alot of fae are rogues and same with goblins. Easy to buff them with counters and also reduce casting costs. Same on the instants and sorceries side. And alot of anti human theme cards that add alot of additional support.
But add in sengir and I have a giant big bad based off sacrificing combos with token creatures and stuff that'll come back.
Smaller creatures makes the whole dethrone thing easier and let's you get rolling early game.
But dead eye and a known untap artifact equipment combo piece with a few pieces makes for a gnarly combo. Krenko makes goblins you sac goblins for red and other colors. You desd eye and untap but can tutor out loads of cards or use many many spells you tutor out in a turn. Or ramp every land left in your deck tapped onto the field.
Fast lands slow lands and others. You can tune it down to where you have a higher likelihood of getting those onto the field untapped. And use alot of other good untapped lands and shock lands.
Shock lands and gain lands don't fully balance out but you wanna have less life points early on.
Side sideways thoughts went into the deck. But then top down and bottom up to make it work properly.
Think the old fae stuff and d&d type fae stuff. Mixed with the whole Ralph from Simpsons uh oh I'm in trouble. And a series of unfortunate events. Meets Lovecraft a lil bit. And hellboy with the tooth faeries.
You will be swarmed. You will be tricked and manipulated. And you won't know how bsd it is till it's too late generally. And strong enough to hold it's own.
But designed to gain steady advantage and ramp. And also be able to target various areas of opponents weaknesses and handle them decently well via a control deck philosophy.
Methods of goading other players creatures and punishment for not being able to fully stop the decks movements due to counters and trickery. And seemingly small fry just annoying. Keeps people off your back.
You appear to be a relatively creature side weak fae control deck in grixis colors. Or a swarm deck built not the best.
But it synergizes well. And some of the stuff is meant to be held back. Example.
Token swarm of 1 1 goblins with some counters. Bit scary but small fry when you see them using it as partial resources for mana ramp and not going infinite.
But add pashalik mons and bam damage. Add the combo pieces for krenko. And hobgoblin bandit and sengir and it's a no matter what almost table wipe or board wipe and direct attack while you maintain everything. Enough spell counters set up and yeah.
Mill let's you make strong use of pyschic intrusion. Copy a spellcounter. Now any mana and repeated usage. Which also works with cycling counters. Zombie decks are the only potential real issue or uber fast decks. And if you appear small threat assessment is a thing.
I would just like to add that you shouldn't be afraid to change things up if a particular deck either doesn't live up to your expectations or just gets boring after a while. I have a Rielle, the Everwise deck that originally started with Arjun, the Shifting Flame. The deck has gone through several iterations (chaos, wheels, spellslinger, combo, etc.) until I finally found what worked for me and the way I like to play.
Many commanders are flexible enough to be used in a handful of different playstyles, and if you like a specific commander, don't tunnel vision with them into a single playstyle. Switch it up.
I've tried all 3, and I can say that Bottom-Up works best, it's just definitely the one that requires the most work.
Funny thing. I had a Painbow deck, my first deck ever. Obviously running five-colors in a deck that doesn’t naturally control the both but wants big creatures on your field sounds nice but it was relatively slow. As I learned and bought other decks, I learned not to value to end goal without first stabilizing (ramp, solid, consistent boardstate, and ways to not get too overwhelmed before “popping off”) long story short it is now a prismatic bridge deck, that does the big creature thing but with a safer mid range strat. lol so it was not so much too down or otherwise more of a in and out strategy that focused on the original theme. Its my first born love lol
I sometimes use the bottom up method, but I usually find myself doing the top down method while keeping away from a lot of the effects that rely on my commander. I will add some of the payoff is great, but not too many. A good ideology while building is add cards that are good on their own and great with your commander out.
This is why I prefer pantlanza over gishath, because pantlaza just helps the engine going faster, but the deck absolutely does not need pantlaza in play for it to go crazy. Whereas gishath is built in a certain way where you are trying to ramp him out asap, if someone removes him then well, gg.
Personally, I use both Bottom up and Top down methods while building. I start with choosing a commander and a theme (the theme doesn't necessarily have to fit the commander), then build the deck around that theme and over time make changes to the list to better synergize with the commander without over relying on it.
I've been playing with tribal Merfolk for almost a decade now, with most of that time having Sygg, River Guide as the commander. Over time, I decided to add green to the deck, swapping out Sygg with Tuvasa (when she came out) and increased the enchantment count, molding the deck to having themes of tokens, enchantments, and tribal merfolk all in one.
I try to "approch the middle" rather than waiting for a solid theme or building around a commander, I take a few similar themes that could even coexist and a few commander options that support one or more of my themes/ goals for the deck. I then see which cards I already own and use that to narrow down my theme and commander options. Usually my approach somewhat resembles a bottom up build but just a different way to do it. I've also noticed building around the commander entirely can cause problems, my Niv Mizzet Parun spellslinger tends to be pretty quiet until it suddenly detonates and everyone dies through (surprisingly) non infinite combos. meanwhile my Oloro deck which just uses the commander as free insurance to play slower/ more controlling is a fairly well rounded deck with a little extra health and card draw then it would otherwise have had.
Great video!
i almost always design top down, and usually just run at least 10 cards to protect my commander in one way or another, whether its reanimation, return to hand, etc. something like Snap is basically a protection spell for your commander, as well as being just generally a good option
I am and will forever be a Sideways deck builder. My favorite one was my "Murica" Ruhan of the Fomori deck.
I thought about this as it applied to my own deck, I have a deck that’s both sideways and top-down helmed by isshin called Daddies tribal (because there are a lotta hunky men that care about combat triggers). I also have a “Steal opponents things deck” helmed by Lazav that’s both bottom-up and top-down, since it focuses on getting Lazav out fast so I can steal as many things as possible with them, but still functions without them.
But then I realized I have a third category. This may be a variation on bottom-up, but I have two decks where my commander is basically a sorcery, so there isn’t much of an issue with getting them out. Dargo/Jeska, and Codie, Vociferous Codex. I play my commander and then immediately sacrifice them to combo off, the commander is the wincon that can’t really be stopped as long as I find the right opening.
I opened a Hinata in the prerelease and I built the deck and played it exactly one time and put it away forever. I don't know how I would rebuild it, but it was definitely a learning experience for me.
Playing more protection or counterspells can help keep the commander around for longer
I do an evolving deck. The more I play, more cards I am introduced to. As such, my deck will constantly change styles. For example, I used Jodah the unifier tokens like godlin makers, egg counters, and more for making the board wider as scraps as my main bodies get bigger. However I change a few cards an did domain Johan. Later that's to the spoiler for them 40k series, I got cascade from my legendary cascade, putting usually 3 creatures from 1 spell. However my last build was Praetors using the world break tree. Since I run 5 colors, getting to 11 mana was a bit easier.
My gruul deck is my first venture into bottom-up design and it's been a blast so far! I wanted a gruul stompy deck that makes ridiculously huge creatures by doubling power multiple times and attacking with them.
I've made a bunch of different gruul decks with a bunch of different commanders at the helm, but there are so many cool ones that it was tough to choose just one. So, what did I do? I made a deck that supports all of them!
Minsc&Boo is the current commander at the helm, but the deck is designed to be able to work with a bunch of stompy gruul legends at the helm (Xenagos, Ruby, Tana, Etali, Halana&Alena, etc) without changing the core strategy of the deck. M&B just happen to be generally strong and do a lot of things that the deck wants, so it's the "default", if you wanna see it that way.
Unique outside the phone !!!🤟
Top down works incredible for cedh though (mostly because you have *insert core staples here* anyways so your commander specific options are gonna be more commander specific to begin with [anje wgd])
i made a sea monster deck with arixmethes as the general, It is both thematic and powerful. Was a sideways and top down design as my local playgroup do not play much land destruction. It is my most fun deck to play currently even if it lacks in some departments.
Your little admech avatar is awesome. Very cute/creepy
My favorite sideways deck is a niche deck based around the idea of ghosts possessing items, so it's a vehicle heavy deck with a moderate spirit tribal subtheme. Unfortunately the best commander I could find was Kaikar, which thoroughly does not fit thematically lol
Sounds like a fun deck though!
@thetrinketmage it is!! Haven't won yet, but my little haunted cars are fun anyways 🥰
The first time o built my atraxa grand unifier deck, i build around her. But after several iterations, now i have other creatures to blink in the deck, and more mana sinks for my ramp. That's a different approach that i like, evolving your deck with the time passing.
I made a "Where Will You Be When Diarrhea Strikes?" EDH deck.
Norin, The Wary + lots of explosions.
And poison counters.
In theory your advice is definitely a good way to build. I would say that it depends on experience level, I mostly design top down, and I would say I mostly build very strong decks, but it is not like I haven't fallen into the top down pitfall, specifically with my Reaper king deck. While it can still be strong, and it does win most 1 v 1 games (though I dislike 1 v 1 in commander), it is basically not really a competitive deck in any way unless my commander is on the battlefield, and I have felt that before. Now I have like 12 other decks that are doing just fine, and I would say most of them are top down.
But I do also have a bottom up, which is my merfolk deck, which I am making atm, getting the cards soon. And looking forward to seeing it in action.
I build my decks around the theme but I build from the end state backwards. I find 2 or 3 ways to win and that determines the colors. Then I build the rest of the deck to synergize between them.
the metal band deck is actually sick
Step 1. Make a list of every card that's ever been printed that fits the gameplan / theme and can go in the deck.
2. Cull that down over several passes until there's only ~50 left.
3. Add some more removal / ramp / etc to smooth it out.
An interesting take Salubrious Snail had on top-down approach was picking a commander with the intent of it as an always-available fix to a structural weakness in the deck. iirc he built a Glissa Sunslayer deck that used her primarily as a strong defensive threat (with mild combo synergies) to hold down the board and focus on curving into mana-heavy late game bombs. It had little to do with Glissa’s abilities, and treated her more like a card you could always rely on drawing.