The fact that Kosh did this shows that not only did he see a better man in G’kar, but that he was one of the only Vorlons who truly cared for the younger races.
This can be viewed on a number of different layers. Face value there’s G’Kars revelation and huge turning point in his arc. But after seeing the whole series you see the Vorlons in a completely different “light” (pun intended) and you realize all this was not as it seemed. BUT then again- I do think as much as Ulkesh was an asshole, Kosh did care and wanted to genuinely help. Just….wow!
I dunno. Kosh is one manipulative sob - maybe the other Vorlon just respected the younger races enough to let them make their own mistakes 😜 /Seriously though, this is such a great scene. 😄
People ignore and ridicule Science Fiction but this scene is arguably one of the deepest, profound and greatest pieces of Wisdom that should be recognised as an important philosophical lesson alongside the Greeks!
@@napoleonsolo5929 He also appeared in Star Trek several times, but his most memorable role was when he played a ruthless Romulan Commander Tomalak in Season 3 of "Star Trek: The Next Generation" (as you can see here: czcams.com/video/0vmdSWX2FZM/video.html ).
He was underrated. I had only known him as the One-Armed Man from The Fugitive and Tomalok from Star Trek TNG. He was great in both those roles but he shined brightly as G'kar.
@Auspician Well yes, Kosh did the large part of his work mostly unseen. That's why it's so remarkable how he chose to directly act here and not behind three layers of secrets.
But did he? G'Kar didn't see him. Londo didn't see him. Garibaldi didn't see him when security arrested G'Kar. NO ONE actually saw Kosh there. No one but us. Which begs the question of how much has Kosh and the Vorlons really been interfering? We know later on that they've interfered with every species guiding them even down to an evolutionary level, a civilizational level. Never directly, never where they can be seen, but anywhere, any time they are not being observed a Vorlons probably has their thumb on the scale.
Kosh speaks with the authority of someone who knows EXACTLY what is going on. He knows that the conflict between the Narn and Centauri is a reflection of the war between the Vorlon and the Shadows (granted on a much shorter timeline and on a much smaller scale) and he is desperately trying to convince the younger races to not repeat the same mistakes his people made. Also, there's a bit of sadness in his voice when he talks about the need for sacrifice. He knows he's not just talking about G'Kar and that he's going to have to make some very tough and very personal choices in the immediate future.
@@TheSamuraiGoomba i feel he saw the hate between narns and centuri and the endless conflict heading towards destruction's as a mirror reflecting the cycle his race and the shadows were trapped in, perhaps if he could save them, it show perhaps that the vorlons and shadows could be saved as well, It no longer matters who started it, it only matters is who is suffering
I have always seen this scene with a much darker context. The Narn do not have telepaths; because of this, the Narn cannot directly fight the Shadows, who are only susceptible to telepaths. (We learn in Season 5 that the Vorlons created the telepaths in each species, only for the Narn to lose all of theirs in the last fight with the Shadows, involving Babylon 4.) Thus, Kosh is telling G'Kar that in order for the Narn to have any meaning in death, they must be cannon fodder so that the other races will live. So in a way, yes, Kosh is being a parent, but he's choosing which child is destined to die so that the others may survive.
"If we are a dying people, then let us die with honour by helping the others as no one else can!" My favorite line in this speech. Kosh sees the Narn could die. Instead of letting their light flicker and die he urges G'kar, no pleads to him that they can still have an impact. A chance to show the other races a better path. To turn that flicker into a burst of light to a better way.
Looking back over the whole story arch if B5 it became obvious to me, that Kosh wasn't a normal Vorlon. He probably was one of the few who didn't forgot their true destiny, not just to demand order but to offer guidance to the young races. He was probably one of the Vorlons who actually could answer the question "who are you?" to himself.
I need to rewatch this again... It's been a long time since I watched the whole thing (S2-S3 are my fav seasons by far). But darn I would wish for a remaster version. The show's CGI in the first 2 season didn't age half as good as the original Startrek did (the non-remastered, original one). Soon(tm). I wish they'd rerun it on cable, then I coudn't get enough of it... Umm, maybe I should write to space channel and see if they have a chance at putting this in their schedule.
@@Francois424 They can't remaster the effects, the files were lost when the original system had a disk failure. Although it's a shame the system wasn't kept around, the Amiga community might have been able to salvage it anyway (like Perefractic did for a system that ended up having raw footage from 'Titanic').
I have always loved the line ''If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame.'' At a certain point, someone needs to say ''Enough. It doesn't matter who is at fault anymore, this needs to end...'' and walk away from the fight.
I hope I don't get hate for saying this: That exact line is what I keep hearing when I see what's going on in parts of the world. "Obsessed with each others death, until there is nobody left. At someone point it won't matter who was right and who was wrong if nobody is left to remember...and we will be not but a memory. Unless we turn away from the cycle of death toward something greater."
This is the stupid interpretation of this scene, completely at odds with other parts of the series. "Sometimes peace is another word for surrender", "never start a fight, but always finish it". The message isn't to walk away from a fight, the message is not to give in to hate and vengeance. What does Kosh do when he sacrifices himself? HE INSTIGATES DIRECT WAR BETWEEN THE VORLONS AND THE SHADOWS. Fighting to protect yourself or others is good, fighting to destroy or enslave your enemy is wrong, even if the enemy wanted to do the same to you. The problem with G'kar and the Narns wasn't that they were trying to secure themselves against the Centauri and reclaim lost territory, the problem was that they were willing to enslave and commit genocide against the Centauri, and to violate weaker races to get resources.
@ObeMossop there's no hate here, only agreement... one of the reasons I came to find this video specifically is because I was thinking the same thing and wanted to hear it word for word. It's in my next Homily. I often quote Gkar in my work.
“They are a dying people. We should let them die.” And yet Kosh comes here and sets G’Kar on a path that will eventually save him and his people, and over time, eventually the Centauri too. What happened to the Vorlon that didn’t care about the Narn and the Centauri? Kosh’s character development is subtle, but it’s there and it’s a joy to watch.
They die, and are reborn. That little thing about the different races discovering the genetic and medical similarities, sharing all their data, and G'Kar looking to recover the telepath gene, the way he is last seen leaving with a human telepath, following up something from the very first episode...
But it wasn't sent to the world leader dude. It was sent to us. The roots of the society. If we live it...then...it spreads upwards to them....the 'leaders'. If we don't get it...no one will.
Too late, they have suffered they have sacrificed and for you to tell them they wasted their time is an insult. "We will carry on the fight. And I want you to watch and know that you let me and your species down".
+Zholla Mychalis to true... +Str8Murder also true... But there is something about the "individual" and the Collective of the individuals that I hope reaches autocrats, as egotistical or deluded they might be.
+MrNintoku I have actually always thought that myself :D Like, they should really hear this. But I suspect that they are too far gone, wrapped too tightly in the cycle of blame and hate, they would not care. As long as mankind exists, palestinians and israeli will never have peace because that enmity is just beyond reconicliation, no matter the logic of these words. Hate makes people blind to the truth.
Kosh found in G'Kar a man that could be of use to what is to come. But I also think he actually cared and cared far more than the other Vorlons ever would.
I always thought that the line “it doesn’t matter who started it, it only matters who is suffering” is possibly one of the best lines ever written and should be the opening text of ever religious book ever printed. And if you don’t shed a tear when G’kar breaks down, we’ll, there is no hope for you. 😢 😅
"You have the opportunity here and now to choose, to become something greater and nobler and more difficult than you have been before." Words to live by.
So true. Except I would beg to differ about how the Universe does not offer choices like that very often. We have the choice every minute of every day whether we’re going to embrace the darkness or the light.
@@billmcclure2171 True but G'kar couldn't see the choice until Kosh put it in front of him because G'kar was too blinded by hatred at the moment. Kosh had to open his eyes for him to see he could choose to be something greater and nobler and more difficult than he had been before.
I am a member of a religion, the Baha'i Faith, that is heavily persecuted in Iran (and now Houthi-held Yemen, which Iran supports). When I'm in tears and ready to scream "WHY??? when I hear about the latest human rights violations there, this scene gives me both hope and perspective. "Some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved" struck me as extremely harsh the first time I heard it, and it took a long time for me to understand the wisdom in it. But---yeah.
@@awesomemccoolname7111 Peace, the brotherhood of humanity, and the sequential nature of religion (so, one god who sends messengers as mankind needs them). Have you read about the B5 reboot?
@@minissa2009 I have heard about it. I'm worried tbh. MJS has kinda gone off the deep end in the last few years, I dunno what he is going to do with B5.
-We are a dying people. So are they. Obsessed with each others death, until death is all we can see and death is all we deserve. -They started it! -And will you continue? Until there are no more of us and no more of them? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, it only matters who is suffering.
When I first heard this speech I thought of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. JMS used a lot real world themes in this show, which is probably one reason why Babylon 5's story arcs really hit home for a lot of people.
@@BlueHooloovoo And also for Mira Furlan who plays Delenn. At the time of the airing of this show her home country of Yugoslavia was undergoing great turmoil. There were bitter wars as it fractured into six smaller countries: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Slovenia.
Suddenly something about this show makes much more sense. The lesson Kosh taught G'Kar here is one the Vorlons and the Shadows needed to learn. He couldn't get his people to listen, so he set the stage for Sheradin and crew to deliver it.
I just thought of the two political sides: Left and Right. Like the Vorlons and the Shadows, they are manipulating each other until they've doomed themselves. I'm sorry but I just think the show is a perfect story for this time and all chaotic times to come in the next few hundred years... no matter what. As the saying by George Santayana goes, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
@@saberiandream316 look on youtube for "fall of eagles bismark 1." The chanselor said it best: -I never cared for titles or ideologies, all that matters is power and who wields it.
I think in all of science fiction programs, Londo Mollari and G'Kar are the perfect example of antagonist/protagonist. Mike Stracynzski did a fantastic job with this series, which rivals any other long running series.
This is the absolute moment that G'Kar finally saw the light and realized that his vengeance against the Centauri Republic was nothing more but a waste of time and was about to destroy him... and his people. The most philosophical science-fiction television series of all time. The show deserves more respect.
A bit of an allegory with the Vorlons and Shadows situation themselves... both a dying people. My favourite scene I think in all of B5. I can never tire of it.
@@billmcclure2171 Not physically, but culturally. They got stuck in a rut with their dispute then stagnated and got to the point where all that made them who they were and all that they wanted became forgotten. Because of their constant fighting and obsession with beating each other, they were dying and once they destroyed the younger races, all that they were would be gone. Thus, they would be dead even as their bodies lived on, assuming they didn't just kill each other after they got done with the younger races. In that case, they'd be literally dead.
Of all the Vorlon's, Kosh was the wisest, the noblest. He KNEW that eternal war would only kill everyone. That is why he defied his own people. Vorlon, Shadow, Human, Minbari, Narn, Centauri, if you cannot let go of war and violence, if you cannot let go of hate, you are inevitably, eventually, doomed. The only way to avoid it is to break the cycle, to cherish life, every life, and to never INSIST on being right all the time. It's okay to be wrong because being wrong is how you learn to be right. We, as a species, still have such a long way to go to truly learn that lesson...if we ever can.
I've heard people say that this was simply to set the Narn up to be used later on as security for Babylon 5, but I never really believed that. Rather, I believe that this was a rather poignant effort by Kosh to save G'Kar (and by extension the Narn race) from themselves. It's a further show of how he cares, or at least grew to care personally about the younger races as before he said to Sinclair "they are a dying people, we should let them pass." Yet here, he helped the last leader of the Narn grow as a person. I think this was his roundabout way of trying to help Londo too (since he was probably "off limits" due to accepting the Shadow's help). I think he sincerely hoped that G'Kar and Londo could save each other, and perhaps their species, from the problems and vices that were slowly killing them.
I've always thought this more as preparing G'kar for what Delenn will tell him later. Then he realizes the whole truth behind this. That his people already had been sacrificed to gain a chance to win the Shadow War. While he was not able to forgive Delenn, he could accept her decision and reasoning.
You're both right to a degree This Kosh cared about the younger races, unlike the other Kosh. He knew that continued fighting between the Narn and the Centauri would not only lead to the destruction of their two species, but also that of the entire quadrant. He knew that by reaching G'Kar, who was always an honorable person, even when he was consumed by hatred, he could change the path of all the younger races and save everyone. He knew that such a path would be hard and that sacrifices were made earlier and would have to continue, but he did it for the good of all.
No, I agree, Kosh wasn't doing it just to manipulate, he truly cared, not only about the Humans and the Minbari but all of the younger races, he knew that continued fighting between the Narn and Centauri would doom everyone and he knew that G'Kar was a good man, even when consumed with rage, G'Kar could be reached and directed in a way that could change the galaxy (and it worked, G'Kar became the heart and conscience of the Alliance, especially in later years, season 5 and in the novels)
Jalaras Studios the wisdom that Koch preaches here seems to be aimed at himself, after all it would be him that would sacrifice himself for the other races. And gkar understands that. he would not be grieving for his people but Kosh. that is my theory at least
I think Kosh realized that he had to be a parent not just to a race but to their specific leaders and give them a true part of himself instead of blind dogma or weapons.
I always liked that at the start of the series Kosh deemed both Centauri and Narn as dying people but him staying at the station actually changed him too and he actually stepped in and did what their race (Vorlons/Shadows) were supposed to do guide younger races.
Remember that all of the ambassadors are there (except possibly for Delenn, and she was always being shoved out of her Grey Council position), because no-one else wanted the position. Kosh Naranek was the only Vorlon who really wanted to help the younger races. Compare him with Kosh Ulkesh...
"We are a dying people. So are they. Obsessed with each others death, until death is all we can see and death is all we deserve." "They started it!" "And will you continue? Until there are no more of us and no more of them? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, it only matters who is suffering." Wonder if anyone's realized, considered or mentioned that Kosh could have been speaking about the Vorlons and Shadows, here, as much as the Centauri and Narns. Realizing this would explain why Kosh took a stand and actually helped Sheridan, rather than simply manipulate him as the Vorlons wanted. Now that is some deep writing on Straczynski's part.
Nice. Although he did say some would have to be sacrificed. When I looked back after watching the whole thing the first time I interpreted that to refer to how the Vorlon purged entire worlds that were tainted.
Both Kosh and G'Kar grow in character throughout the course of the show. They dared to find a better path separate from the racial stigmas of their people. They both sacrificed themselves for a higher cause and showed courage in a time of darkness. They are my two favorite characters in Babylon 5.
I personally always drew paralells to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when I heard that line. Still do. An ongoing cycle of hatred that never ends because both sides want to have the last shot in before´even considering peace talks. In such a circumstance, one side MUST say "alright, enough is enough; either they startyed it or we, but there is no point to this anymore, this is just death for death's sake. Let's talk and resolve this once and for all because this is just ridiculous". But no one can ever do that.
not quite. Star Trek is a victim of its own success. When Star Trek started, they took chances. A multinational crew and the first interracial kiss for example were revolutionary back then. Then Star Trek became a cash cow for Paramount so it no longer took the chance to shake things up like the original series. B5 took a similar approach of taking chances and ran with it. That is why B5 was better.
I will never understand fans need to stir up rivalries. Fun fact: actors from this show were on Star Trek as well and many actors from both shows love the other. Just enjoy them as they are. I certainly do.
@Norma Cenva lmao if you want to get free jabs at trek at least make an effort. People who have watched both ds9 and B5 generally agree that babylon 5 was the superior show. i don't think you could name a single person that believes ds9's plot was better (opinions on character writing on the other hand is pretty 50/50 from what I understand). Besides people can still enjoy both trek and b5 while preferring one or the other.
Yeah it comes with the territory. People like that feel the need to prove something. As if commenting something like "why do people keep saying something despite the fact that no one has ever said that something," validates their opinion. It's like the "am I the only one who thinks" comments on videos where 90% of the people generally think the same thing. It generally only happens when it comes to movies or tv shows that are extremely good but very niche or just not popular.
"It is enough!" "Who............ Who's there?" "Just us." "Who are you?" "I am .. who I have always been." "Father?" "It is too late for me, G'Kar. It is not too late for you. Honor my name. Honor...my name." "No!" "We are a dying people G'Kar. So are the Centauri. Obsessed with each other's death, until death is all that we can see.... and death is all we deserve." "The Centauri started it." "And will you continue... until there are no more Narns.... and no more Centauri? If both sides are dead. No one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it G'Kar. It only matters who is suffering." "No. I have an obligation to honor my Father's name." "And how have you chosen to honor that name? What is there left for Narn if all of creation falls around us? There is nothing.... no hope.... no dream... no future... no life. Unless we turn from the cycle of death towards something greater. If we are a dying people, then let us die with honor by helping the others as no one else can." "I do not understand?" "Because you have let them distract you... blind you with hate! You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another, we must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because, if we fail in this, then none of us will be saved...and the Narn will be only a memory." [G'Qarn disappears] "You have the opportunity here and now to choose. To become something greater and nobler and more difficult than you have been before. The Universe does not offer such chances often G'Kar." "Why now? Why not earlier? All this time, where have you been?" "I have always been here." ---- Kosh Narenk [in the form of G'Kar's late Father G'Qarn and in the angelic form of G'Lan] convincing G'Kar to let go of his hatred in order to save him from himself (from "Babylon 5" Season 3, Episode 6 "Dust to Dust")
What immense philosophical and emotional depth this show had! I still credit B5 for starting the current "golden age" of television. It was far different than any show before it.
One of the best parts of babylon 5. If you have not watched it and can handle the oldness of the show i recommend you watch it. There is more of this good stuff.
Andreas Katsulas as G'Kar was fantastic. He made G'Kar into an amazing REAL character. He's an amazing actor to have shown the emotional growth of G'Kar.
Turtle1631991. There was, of course, that same advice offered by the Nazerine and similar advice by Hilel the Elder two millennia ago. You may have come across that in your travels, but ignored it out of popular cultural bias. Even if you don't subscribe to mysticism or religion, the philosophy is sound. Remember that even Gkar's vision ended in seeing an ascended deliverer. You do know that B5 was Christian metaphor from start to finish. No attempt at preaching, just trying to help. Tomorrow is always a new and fresh day with no mistakes in it, yet.
One might remember that the show's creator (J. Michael Strazynski) is an avowed atheist, and the "ascended delliverer" was simply the way Vorlons appeared to those who saw them. (Or did you watch the entire series?) This does not lessen the validity of the philosophy, but to ascribe religious significance is not an accurate perception of the creator's intent.
"I have always been here." That line gave me chills. Then seeing G'Lan with the epic music....wow, Babylon 5...just, wow. Kosh did what he did to save not just G'Kar, but the entire Narn race, from themselves. They had a much greater destiny than power or politics or glory.
This scene is one example of why I consider Babylon Five one of the greatest SciFi shows of all time. This scene is an example of outstanding writing that was filmed well and acted well.
The line about being more difficult bothered me for a time. See Kosh wasn't just saying that G'kar could be tougher than he was before. He is saying that G'kar has the opportunity to do the most good by willingly choosing the path of greater suffering and struggle.
It's amazing for how what could have been a hokey episode about Narn telepathy via drug abuse resulted in such a powerful and emotionally gripping scene. I wasn't ready for its message when I first heard it. It was only after the Sept.11th attacks that its message finally resonated with me...
I already understood the message from person experience when I first heard it. I used to be a very vengeful person myself. I very much connected with G'Kar. Before his revelation is like the way I used to be, and my friends now would probably compare me to him after the revelation. Struck home.
I come here often, when I feel like ending myself. It is a true sign of greatness that I come to this scene to look for help. It is true perfection. Best series I have known in my life to the present day.
I’m so sorry to hear that man, but please don’t feel that way, I don’t know what you’re going through but you have so much to offer both to yourself and the world, don’t throw it away. God is always with you even in the worst of moments, if you accept him and embrace his teachings then he will give you the strength and guidance to overcome any tragedy or obstacle and live a better life. It might not mean much from a stranger, but I wish you the best all the same.
This scene is explaining what Kosh meant when he said "They are dying people" And he clearly started to care more for them than in the beginning. This scene is as much about him as i is about G'kar. I think Kosh didn't fight the shadows to prove the Vorlons were right. I don't think he cared if the Vorlons were right. He did it to stop their cycle of conflict and suffering. Kosh never tried to impose order or discipline on people - he only speaks about peace and the sacrifices that need to be done for it. He became one of those sacrifices. I really liked Kosh. Maybe if he was more straightforward he'd still be alive. Or maybe he'd just be misunderstood. His subtle character growth that one can see only after the shadow war, and after knowing the Vorlon ways, was really well made in my opinion. It's not as big as that of Londo and G'kar, but it is there.
That's why Kosh was my favorite character! And it's not like we ever saw very many other Vorlons. Kosh was pretty cool, distant and apathetic when he first arrived at the station. ("We take no interest in the affairs of others.") Perhaps if other Vorlons had spent more time living among the younger races, they too would have developed compassion and empathy for them/us. At least the Vorlons didn't go around all willy-nilly blowing up everything in sight just to start a fight, at least not until the Shadows pushed them to it. (The Shadows were like the ultimate internet trolls, just itching to start a fight. Ugh!)
I also like that when Kosh answers Sinclair's question about which race are the "dying people" with a "yes" he's answering both of Sinclair's questions at once. (The Narn AND the Centauri)
Some say it was Kosh who manipulated G'Kar into the Narn being cannonfodder, but in the end, his truths were universal, and it was G'Kar who had his revelation and sieze upon it, to enhance his and his peoples spirit.
This to me is one of my favourite scenes in all of television. It's powerful, has a life lesson, great acting and a really satisfying turn in a character arc. What more can you ask for?
Andreas Katsoulas of course was an outstanding actor and performer, all throughout this series. But the actor playing G'Kar's phantasm of a father brings this particular scene alive. Listen to the passionate pleading in his voice to bring G'Kar around from his vengeful mindset to see the bigger picture of what is happening - just plain pitch perfect in every way.
Kosh really wanted this cycle to end. His kindred were so obsessed with their goals that they were just as lost as the races they were meant to guide. Kosh removed himself from that cycle and finally found those who would break it. Its funny, he always speaks like a prophet when he is a vision, and yet as him self he speaks like a riddle.
Bab5 was an amazing series - touched on many issues using a science fiction setting! So sad that a few of the main characters have died (including Andreas Katsulas)
More than a few now: Andreas Katsulas (G’Kar) Richard Biggs (Dr. Stephen Franklin) Michael O’Hare (Jeffrey Sinclair - Valen) Jeff Conaway (Zach) Stephen Furst (Vir)
this may be the most important episode in the series for G"kar.He makes the transformation from the evil and powerseeking narn that he was to the leader he was to become...this is when he saw himself for the first time and knew he had to change to save himself....from himself.
He was never evil, he was only consumed with rage and hatred A good man can act badly when consumed with rage There are three modes (three gunas) of existence, the mode of Ignorance, the mode of Anger/Passion and the mode of Goodness (the first 2 are destructive, only the last can allow for transcendence) G'Kar was never ignorant, but he was angry, very angry and hateful, maybe it was partly justified, but he allowed it to become self-destructive. This event moved him into the mode of goodness, and he helped to forge the Alliance (without him they would have lost the Shadow War and the Alliance would have died)
The 3 Gunas...I like that...but its neglacting one....the power of the ego. How much evil have been done in the name of label...identity alone....no cause...no substance...just identity.
G’Kar’s character growth and his complicated relationship with Londo were my favorite parts of this series. The writing had such depth to it, truly my favorite series ever.
G'Kar is the greatest science fiction character ever. He is wise but not perfect. And unlike any other show he was kind of a pervert. lol And he liked human women.
To be fair, apparently human women liked him. A lot of the actresses on the show mentioned how sexy G'Kar was and it wasn't his appearance but his charisma and charm that made him kinda 'hot'. An interesting observation. Your mindset can improve your attractiveness to others. Confidence, wisdom, charm, charisma are all attractants to human beings. :D
It's the dialogue and the style of story telling that utterly separates Babylon 5 from any comparison to Star Trek or Star Wars... And unlike the other two... It utilized themes and subjects that links directly into to our civilization and not some utopian visions or super natural ability that's never existed! A fantasy... That's truly relatable!
The irony is that the Vorlons and Shadows still hadn't fully comprehended this lesson. Kosh himself finally did just before he died thanks to Sheridan.
Kosh had it exactly right. You don't need to bash the younger races over the head, resort to genetic manipulation, or even an active propaganda campaign to encourage them in the right direction. Sometimes, all it takes is the tiniest of subtle pushes, a few words said to someone with the capacity to become a great leader.
Interesting that Kosh was moved enough to intervene. Presumably he sensed the interrogation mentally. I suspect that Kosh was always something of a progressive (as Vorlons go), but his association with the younger races on the station I think reminded him of the original goals of the First Ones, before the Vorlons and Shadows had their falling out.
"All this time... where have you been?" "I have always been here." Simple, and yet so poignant... Very possibly my favorite scene from the show. Katsulas and the other actor really surpassed themselves.
Uh... not quite sure where you get that idea from. Whenever humans have encountered anyone who's the slightest bit different, it never turns out well, especially for the "weird" one(s). We certainly didn't offer the aliens domination of our world in the movie "Independence Day."
I do have to say this: Both Babylon 5 and Star Trek have a great story. But Babylon 5, knows what to do. What to make you feel, what questions you have to ask. You can tell they made sure to make an interesting and profound story. Everyone has a character, everyone has a story, everyone has an adventure to deal and struggles. Babylon 5 has always made sure to develop their characters. That's why I enjoy it and will keep enjoying it to the end.
I feel in someway that this was also a means for Kosh to make up for something his race allowed. When the Shadows were upon Narn centuries before the Shadows had eradicated the Narn telepaths. Centuries later G'kar sought a means of bringing Telepaths back to his people, but instead found a drug that enraged him beyond measure. The Vorlons could have stopped the Shadows for good long ago. Kosh knew it, but they didnt. This was his way of repairing that damage a little and setting the Narn on a better path.
this scene blows star war's and star trek out of the park for me because it touches something I think would come to most living beings come to all our lives. When we are at the precipice of choice and we go down one path or the other how many times maybe by dreams do we envision ourselves going down the unwanted path the dark path alone. We in our isolation a friend comes and picks us up dusts us off and said "come my friend" and guides us off on to a better path together. This scene rocks me to that place just a thought
So many powerful lines in this scene, but what gets me every time is just G’kar breaking down and weeping; realising all the pain and suffering he has contributed to and what could have been avoided
I loved this scene, the best in Babylon 5 ever! "I have always been here!" The turning point of G'Kar life. A powerful lesson about the price of war revenge and war....consumed with hate only destroys you.
One of the most unrecognised greatest actors ever a brilliant performance along with his other brilliant colleagues starring in Babylon 5 I just love the way Molari and G'Kar trade insults and end up on the same side and there's a good reason G'Kar has his hands around Molari's neck 20 years later its just hard to believe almost all the episodes were written by one great writer JMS I would spell it out if I could J Michael Strazinski ?? How this guy wrote this stuff some in sequence some many years out of sequence there's just no other show like it except for the one series of Crusade It was rumored that the great JMS was to write the new story for the revamped Forbidden Planet but I guess it never eventuated its a hard act to follow that movie But I just love this show I was so happy when I discovered they had every series of Babylon 5 and Crusade with every TV movie and the beggining movie for Babylon 5 in a boxed set its just a must have for fans of this universe Great space battles no phaser beams or transporters or faster than light ships just the old jump gate concept immortalised in Robert A Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky Its just such a wonderful concept completely different to Star Trek and Star Wars but brilliant visuals on such a tight budget just an all round wonderful science fiction tale just brilliant
This is why Kosh Naranek is my favourite character on B5, his wisdom and affection for the Younger Races is exemplar. He grew over time to the point where his disgust with the endless cycles/swings of Order & Chaos led him to help the Younger Races discover another way out of the conflict that would break the endless cycle. He believed so strongly in this, that he forced his people into action, to intercede for the Younger Races. He would've been disgusted at his people's overreaction later after his passing with Planet-Killers after his voluntary self-sacrifice. As clearly they learned nothing from his example that the Younger Races needed to be offered proper guidance, not threatened into blind obedience.
Man, I wish I could give this comment about, oh, five thousand likes. No one ever really seems to understand Kosh in this way. They just lump all the Vorlons together and say "They're just as bad as the Shadows" or, more often, whine about how terrible they are for "manipulating" the younger races. Well, the way I see it is that the Vorlons gave us the gift of telepathy, taught us to behave in a civilized manner, and hell, they even rehabilitated Jack the Ripper! And like in this scene with G'Kar, they do most of that simply by giving us little nudges and suggestions about how a gentler, wiser approach would be better for everyone in the long run. With the Shadows though, wham-bang, you just immediately get a brain implant that FORCES you to do what THEY want, i.e. promote wars, violence and genocide. You're just a piece of replaceable organic machinery to them. That's why I'm so deeply troubled by how many B5 fans actually side with the Shadows because it speaks volumes about what kind of morals and ethics are valued by such a large portion of our society. You can't talk about this kind of stuff in fan groups without getting banned, but the parallels there with today's hostile political landscape are just so obvious. One side actually cares about people and their welfare; the other does not. It's so sad that more people can't "wake up" like G'Kar did.
@@billmcclure2171 It's their lack of empathy. Living another person's life as G'Kar did with Londo, might teach anyone with any wits what they need to know.
@@stevetheduck1425 That’s exactly what JMS’s other show was all about. Pretty surprising coming from someone who’s often as callous and acerbic as his good buddy Harlan Ellison always was. P.S. Please say hello to your brother Howard for me.
The fact that Kosh did this shows that not only did he see a better man in G’kar, but that he was one of the only Vorlons who truly cared for the younger races.
After watching the show a few times you realise Kosh planted the seeds to try and end the war. He did it with Sheridan as well.
@@zoidberg444 Kosh was playing 10d chess before everyone on the show even learned how to play checkers.
This can be viewed on a number of different layers. Face value there’s G’Kars revelation and huge turning point in his arc.
But after seeing the whole series you see the Vorlons in a completely different “light” (pun intended) and you realize all this was not as it seemed.
BUT then again- I do think as much as Ulkesh was an asshole, Kosh did care and wanted to genuinely help.
Just….wow!
I dunno. Kosh is one manipulative sob - maybe the other Vorlon just respected the younger races enough to let them make their own mistakes 😜
/Seriously though, this is such a great scene. 😄
Lyta said that Kosh cared for others, while his replacement didn't.
People ignore and ridicule Science Fiction but this scene is arguably one of the deepest, profound and greatest pieces of Wisdom that should be recognised as an important philosophical lesson alongside the Greeks!
Well fucking said. 100% agree with you
There's an old saw among writers. "Write nonfiction when you want to tell a story, and fiction when you want to tell the truth."
ClockwerkMan very nice
This and G'Kar's "What is truth and what is god" speech
Yardash Truth is a river...
Andreas Katsulas was one of the very best actors on TV ever. His performance on B5 was a gift to us all. We miss him...
We were lucky to have him.
@@napoleonsolo5929 He also appeared in Star Trek several times, but his most memorable role was when he played a ruthless Romulan Commander Tomalak in Season 3 of "Star Trek: The Next Generation" (as you can see here: czcams.com/video/0vmdSWX2FZM/video.html ).
I love that man.
He was underrated. I had only known him as the One-Armed Man from The Fugitive and Tomalok from Star Trek TNG. He was great in both those roles but he shined brightly as G'kar.
One of the rare times Kosh actively intervenes. That alone speaks volumes of how important this was.
@Auspician Well yes, Kosh did the large part of his work mostly unseen. That's why it's so remarkable how he chose to directly act here and not behind three layers of secrets.
But did he? G'Kar didn't see him. Londo didn't see him. Garibaldi didn't see him when security arrested G'Kar. NO ONE actually saw Kosh there. No one but us. Which begs the question of how much has Kosh and the Vorlons really been interfering? We know later on that they've interfered with every species guiding them even down to an evolutionary level, a civilizational level. Never directly, never where they can be seen, but anywhere, any time they are not being observed a Vorlons probably has their thumb on the scale.
Kosh speaks with the authority of someone who knows EXACTLY what is going on. He knows that the conflict between the Narn and Centauri is a reflection of the war between the Vorlon and the Shadows (granted on a much shorter timeline and on a much smaller scale) and he is desperately trying to convince the younger races to not repeat the same mistakes his people made.
Also, there's a bit of sadness in his voice when he talks about the need for sacrifice. He knows he's not just talking about G'Kar and that he's going to have to make some very tough and very personal choices in the immediate future.
I loved all of the subtext in Babylon 5. Such a well made tv series.
What an epic episode that was. G'Kar went from a Raging Barbarian to a Noble Paladin from that time forward. I loved that change on him so much.
The beautiful thing is it's organic and natural, and G'kar always had that goodness in him, but it was buried under his anger.
I'd say he became more of a diplomatic Bard... ;)
Getting knighted by King Arthur helped.
G'kar's character arc was something to behold. His dynamic with Londo was as memorable as the Spock/McCoy relationship. One for the ages.
That’s what we saw over five years, but I wonder what became over the next twenty years until his end.
Kosh Being a Parent to his children in a nutshell.
I love these scenes. The only times he actually shows who he is.
One of the only Vorlons who really gave a damn about his kids.
@@TheSamuraiGoomba i feel he saw the hate between narns and centuri and the endless conflict heading towards destruction's as a mirror reflecting the cycle his race and the shadows were trapped in, perhaps if he could save them, it show perhaps that the vorlons and shadows could be saved as well, It no longer matters who started it, it only matters is who is suffering
I have always seen this scene with a much darker context. The Narn do not have telepaths; because of this, the Narn cannot directly fight the Shadows, who are only susceptible to telepaths. (We learn in Season 5 that the Vorlons created the telepaths in each species, only for the Narn to lose all of theirs in the last fight with the Shadows, involving Babylon 4.) Thus, Kosh is telling G'Kar that in order for the Narn to have any meaning in death, they must be cannon fodder so that the other races will live. So in a way, yes, Kosh is being a parent, but he's choosing which child is destined to die so that the others may survive.
"If we are a dying people, then let us die with honour by helping the others as no one else can!"
My favorite line in this speech. Kosh sees the Narn could die. Instead of letting their light flicker and die he urges G'kar, no pleads to him that they can still have an impact. A chance to show the other races a better path. To turn that flicker into a burst of light to a better way.
we are all kosh
Just remember that we're all dying. What matters is what we do with the seconds in between. And most people just waste them.
Looking back over the whole story arch if B5 it became obvious to me, that Kosh wasn't a normal Vorlon. He probably was one of the few who didn't forgot their true destiny, not just to demand order but to offer guidance to the young races. He was probably one of the Vorlons who actually could answer the question "who are you?" to himself.
Earlier he says they are a dying people. "The Narn or the Centauri?" "Yes."
"I have always been here."
STILL sends chills up my spine.
CancerLicker me too!!!
it always amazes me how good science fiction always touches the theme of god - especially the ones who think they are atheists :)
'We have always been here'
I need to rewatch this again... It's been a long time since I watched the whole thing (S2-S3 are my fav seasons by far).
But darn I would wish for a remaster version. The show's CGI in the first 2 season didn't age half as good as the original Startrek did (the non-remastered, original one).
Soon(tm). I wish they'd rerun it on cable, then I coudn't get enough of it... Umm, maybe I should write to space channel and see if they have a chance at putting this in their schedule.
@@Francois424 They can't remaster the effects, the files were lost when the original system had a disk failure. Although it's a shame the system wasn't kept around, the Amiga community might have been able to salvage it anyway (like Perefractic did for a system that ended up having raw footage from 'Titanic').
I have always loved the line ''If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame.'' At a certain point, someone needs to say ''Enough. It doesn't matter who is at fault anymore, this needs to end...'' and walk away from the fight.
No one walks away.
I hope I don't get hate for saying this: That exact line is what I keep hearing when I see what's going on in parts of the world. "Obsessed with each others death, until there is nobody left. At someone point it won't matter who was right and who was wrong if nobody is left to remember...and we will be not but a memory. Unless we turn away from the cycle of death toward something greater."
This is the stupid interpretation of this scene, completely at odds with other parts of the series. "Sometimes peace is another word for surrender", "never start a fight, but always finish it". The message isn't to walk away from a fight, the message is not to give in to hate and vengeance. What does Kosh do when he sacrifices himself? HE INSTIGATES DIRECT WAR BETWEEN THE VORLONS AND THE SHADOWS. Fighting to protect yourself or others is good, fighting to destroy or enslave your enemy is wrong, even if the enemy wanted to do the same to you. The problem with G'kar and the Narns wasn't that they were trying to secure themselves against the Centauri and reclaim lost territory, the problem was that they were willing to enslave and commit genocide against the Centauri, and to violate weaker races to get resources.
@ObeMossop there's no hate here, only agreement... one of the reasons I came to find this video specifically is because I was thinking the same thing and wanted to hear it word for word. It's in my next Homily. I often quote Gkar in my work.
"Let this be your last battlefield "
“They are a dying people. We should let them die.”
And yet Kosh comes here and sets G’Kar on a path that will eventually save him and his people, and over time, eventually the Centauri too. What happened to the Vorlon that didn’t care about the Narn and the Centauri?
Kosh’s character development is subtle, but it’s there and it’s a joy to watch.
They die, and are reborn.
That little thing about the different races discovering the genetic and medical similarities, sharing all their data, and G'Kar looking to recover the telepath gene, the way he is last seen leaving with a human telepath, following up something from the very first episode...
"It no longer matters who started it, it only matters is who is suffering" that message should be sent to every world leader.
But it wasn't sent to the world leader dude. It was sent to us. The roots of the society. If we live it...then...it spreads upwards to them....the 'leaders'. If we don't get it...no one will.
Too late, they have suffered they have sacrificed and for you to tell them they wasted their time is an insult.
"We will carry on the fight. And I want you to watch and know that you let me and your species down".
+Zholla Mychalis to true... +Str8Murder also true...
But there is something about the "individual" and the Collective of the individuals that I hope reaches autocrats, as egotistical or deluded they might be.
Especially the Palestinians and Israeli's
+MrNintoku
I have actually always thought that myself :D Like, they should really hear this. But I suspect that they are too far gone, wrapped too tightly in the cycle of blame and hate, they would not care. As long as mankind exists, palestinians and israeli will never have peace because that enmity is just beyond reconicliation, no matter the logic of these words. Hate makes people blind to the truth.
Kosh found in G'Kar a man that could be of use to what is to come. But I also think he actually cared and cared far more than the other Vorlons ever would.
R.I.P Andreas Katsulas (18.05.1946 - 13.02.2006)
"Respect for his great Performance as G´kar"
Lightsoul yes the one and only
Agreed. Rest in peace Mr. Andreas Katsulas. You will always be G'kar to me.
Correction. He died in 2006.
@@GB-oo2mt THX now it is correct
@@Lightsoul1987 No need to thank me mate. 2006...it seems long time ago.
I always thought that the line “it doesn’t matter who started it, it only matters who is suffering” is possibly one of the best lines ever written and should be the opening text of ever religious book ever printed.
And if you don’t shed a tear when G’kar breaks down, we’ll, there is no hope for you. 😢 😅
"You have the opportunity here and now to choose, to become something greater and nobler and more difficult than you have been before."
Words to live by.
So true. Except I would beg to differ about how the Universe does not offer choices like that very often. We have the choice every minute of every day whether we’re going to embrace the darkness or the light.
@@billmcclure2171 True but G'kar couldn't see the choice until Kosh put it in front of him because G'kar was too blinded by hatred at the moment. Kosh had to open his eyes for him to see he could choose to be something greater and nobler and more difficult than he had been before.
I am a member of a religion, the Baha'i Faith, that is heavily persecuted in Iran (and now Houthi-held Yemen, which Iran supports). When I'm in tears and ready to scream "WHY??? when I hear about the latest human rights violations there, this scene gives me both hope and perspective. "Some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved" struck me as extremely harsh the first time I heard it, and it took a long time for me to understand the wisdom in it. But---yeah.
you are not alone... my friend.
It's not so great when you realize the vision are basically just using him.
Still a great scene.
What is your religion about?
@@awesomemccoolname7111 Peace, the brotherhood of humanity, and the sequential nature of religion (so, one god who sends messengers as mankind needs them). Have you read about the B5 reboot?
@@minissa2009 I have heard about it. I'm worried tbh. MJS has kinda gone off the deep end in the last few years, I dunno what he is going to do with B5.
In all fairness, it’s far easier to understand if you aren’t on the side being sacrificed.
-We are a dying people. So are they. Obsessed with each others death, until death is all we can see and death is all we deserve.
-They started it!
-And will you continue? Until there are no more of us and no more of them? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, it only matters who is suffering.
When I first heard this speech I thought of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. JMS used a lot real world themes in this show, which is probably one reason why Babylon 5's story arcs really hit home for a lot of people.
@@BlueHooloovoo And also for Mira Furlan who plays Delenn. At the time of the airing of this show her home country of Yugoslavia was undergoing great turmoil. There were bitter wars as it fractured into six smaller countries: Bosnia and Herzegovina,
Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Slovenia.
Suddenly something about this show makes much more sense. The lesson Kosh taught G'Kar here is one the Vorlons and the Shadows needed to learn. He couldn't get his people to listen, so he set the stage for Sheradin and crew to deliver it.
I just thought of the two political sides: Left and Right. Like the Vorlons and the Shadows, they are manipulating each other until they've doomed themselves.
I'm sorry but I just think the show is a perfect story for this time and all chaotic times to come in the next few hundred years... no matter what.
As the saying by George Santayana goes, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
@@saberiandream316 look on youtube for "fall of eagles bismark 1." The chanselor said it best:
-I never cared for titles or ideologies, all that matters is power and who wields it.
I think in all of science fiction programs, Londo Mollari and G'Kar are the perfect example of antagonist/protagonist. Mike Stracynzski did a fantastic job with this series, which rivals any other long running series.
Long running, but intentionally from day one set to end after 5 years.
Rivals? No. Babylon 5 does not rival. It SURPASSES
This is one of those scenes that established Babylon 5 as one of the greatest Sci-fi shows ever made.
This is the absolute moment that G'Kar finally saw the light and realized that his vengeance against the Centauri Republic was nothing more but a waste of time and was about to destroy him... and his people.
The most philosophical science-fiction television series of all time.
The show deserves more respect.
A bit of an allegory with the Vorlons and Shadows situation themselves... both a dying people. My favourite scene I think in all of B5. I can never tire of it.
They weren't dying. They were essentially immortal. Their philosophies just weren't needed anymore, so they left.
That had never occured to me. It explains a great deal, including why Kosh was not a typical Vorlon. He understood.
@@billmcclure2171 Not physically, but culturally. They got stuck in a rut with their dispute then stagnated and got to the point where all that made them who they were and all that they wanted became forgotten.
Because of their constant fighting and obsession with beating each other, they were dying and once they destroyed the younger races, all that they were would be gone.
Thus, they would be dead even as their bodies lived on, assuming they didn't just kill each other after they got done with the younger races. In that case, they'd be literally dead.
Of all the Vorlon's, Kosh was the wisest, the noblest. He KNEW that eternal war would only kill everyone. That is why he defied his own people. Vorlon, Shadow, Human, Minbari, Narn, Centauri, if you cannot let go of war and violence, if you cannot let go of hate, you are inevitably, eventually, doomed. The only way to avoid it is to break the cycle, to cherish life, every life, and to never INSIST on being right all the time. It's okay to be wrong because being wrong is how you learn to be right.
We, as a species, still have such a long way to go to truly learn that lesson...if we ever can.
I've heard people say that this was simply to set the Narn up to be used later on as security for Babylon 5, but I never really believed that. Rather, I believe that this was a rather poignant effort by Kosh to save G'Kar (and by extension the Narn race) from themselves. It's a further show of how he cares, or at least grew to care personally about the younger races as before he said to Sinclair "they are a dying people, we should let them pass." Yet here, he helped the last leader of the Narn grow as a person. I think this was his roundabout way of trying to help Londo too (since he was probably "off limits" due to accepting the Shadow's help). I think he sincerely hoped that G'Kar and Londo could save each other, and perhaps their species, from the problems and vices that were slowly killing them.
I've always thought this more as preparing G'kar for what Delenn will tell him later. Then he realizes the whole truth behind this. That his people already had been sacrificed to gain a chance to win the Shadow War. While he was not able to forgive Delenn, he could accept her decision and reasoning.
You're both right to a degree
This Kosh cared about the younger races, unlike the other Kosh.
He knew that continued fighting between the Narn and the Centauri would not only lead to the destruction of their two species, but also that of the entire quadrant.
He knew that by reaching G'Kar, who was always an honorable person, even when he was consumed by hatred, he could change the path of all the younger races and save everyone.
He knew that such a path would be hard and that sacrifices were made earlier and would have to continue, but he did it for the good of all.
No, I agree, Kosh wasn't doing it just to manipulate, he truly cared, not only about the Humans and the Minbari but all of the younger races, he knew that continued fighting between the Narn and Centauri would doom everyone and he knew that G'Kar was a good man, even when consumed with rage, G'Kar could be reached and directed in a way that could change the galaxy (and it worked, G'Kar became the heart and conscience of the Alliance, especially in later years, season 5 and in the novels)
Jalaras Studios the wisdom that Koch preaches here seems to be aimed at himself, after all it would be him that would sacrifice himself for the other races. And gkar understands that.
he would not be grieving for his people but Kosh.
that is my theory at least
I think Kosh realized that he had to be a parent not just to a race but to their specific leaders and give them a true part of himself instead of blind dogma or weapons.
I always liked that at the start of the series Kosh deemed both Centauri and Narn as dying people but him staying at the station actually changed him too and he actually stepped in and did what their race (Vorlons/Shadows) were supposed to do guide younger races.
Remember that all of the ambassadors are there (except possibly for Delenn, and she was always being shoved out of her Grey Council position), because no-one else wanted the position.
Kosh Naranek was the only Vorlon who really wanted to help the younger races. Compare him with Kosh Ulkesh...
"We are a dying people. So are they. Obsessed with each others death, until death is all we can see and death is all we deserve."
"They started it!"
"And will you continue? Until there are no more of us and no more of them? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, it only matters who is suffering."
Wonder if anyone's realized, considered or mentioned that Kosh could have been speaking about the Vorlons and Shadows, here, as much as the Centauri and Narns. Realizing this would explain why Kosh took a stand and actually helped Sheridan, rather than simply manipulate him as the Vorlons wanted.
Now that is some deep writing on Straczynski's part.
Thanks. :)
Nice. Although he did say some would have to be sacrificed. When I looked back after watching the whole thing the first time I interpreted that to refer to how the Vorlon purged entire worlds that were tainted.
Both Kosh and G'Kar grow in character throughout the course of the show. They dared to find a better path separate from the racial stigmas of their people. They both sacrificed themselves for a higher cause and showed courage in a time of darkness. They are my two favorite characters in Babylon 5.
I personally always drew paralells to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when I heard that line. Still do. An ongoing cycle of hatred that never ends because both sides want to have the last shot in before´even considering peace talks. In such a circumstance, one side MUST say "alright, enough is enough; either they startyed it or we, but there is no point to this anymore, this is just death for death's sake. Let's talk and resolve this once and for all because this is just ridiculous". But no one can ever do that.
and people still say Star Trek is better? Babylon 5 was ahead of its time!
not quite. Star Trek is a victim of its own success. When Star Trek started, they took chances. A multinational crew and the first interracial kiss for example were revolutionary back then. Then Star Trek became a cash cow for Paramount so it no longer took the chance to shake things up like the original series. B5 took a similar approach of taking chances and ran with it. That is why B5 was better.
I will never understand fans need to stir up rivalries. Fun fact: actors from this show were on Star Trek as well and many actors from both shows love the other. Just enjoy them as they are. I certainly do.
True i would say,the best
@Norma Cenva lmao if you want to get free jabs at trek at least make an effort. People who have watched both ds9 and B5 generally agree that babylon 5 was the superior show. i don't think you could name a single person that believes ds9's plot was better (opinions on character writing on the other hand is pretty 50/50 from what I understand). Besides people can still enjoy both trek and b5 while preferring one or the other.
Yeah it comes with the territory. People like that feel the need to prove something. As if commenting something like "why do people keep saying something despite the fact that no one has ever said that something," validates their opinion. It's like the "am I the only one who thinks" comments on videos where 90% of the people generally think the same thing. It generally only happens when it comes to movies or tv shows that are extremely good but very niche or just not popular.
Fun fact, the actor who played G'kar's father in this scene also played Bishop Brennan in Father Ted.
"It is enough!"
"Who............ Who's there?"
"Just us."
"Who are you?"
"I am .. who I have always been."
"Father?"
"It is too late for me, G'Kar. It is not too late for you. Honor my name. Honor...my name."
"No!"
"We are a dying people G'Kar. So are the Centauri. Obsessed with each other's death, until death is all that we can see.... and death is all we deserve."
"The Centauri started it."
"And will you continue... until there are no more Narns.... and no more Centauri? If both sides are dead. No one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it G'Kar. It only matters who is suffering."
"No. I have an obligation to honor my Father's name."
"And how have you chosen to honor that name? What is there left for Narn if all of creation falls around us? There is nothing.... no hope.... no dream... no future... no life. Unless we turn from the cycle of death towards something greater. If we are a dying people, then let us die with honor by helping the others as no one else can."
"I do not understand?"
"Because you have let them distract you... blind you with hate! You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another, we must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because, if we fail in this, then none of us will be saved...and the Narn will be only a memory."
[G'Qarn disappears]
"You have the opportunity here and now to choose. To become something greater and nobler and more difficult than you have been before. The Universe does not offer such chances often G'Kar."
"Why now? Why not earlier? All this time, where have you been?"
"I have always been here."
---- Kosh Narenk [in the form of G'Kar's late Father G'Qarn and in the angelic form of G'Lan] convincing G'Kar to let go of his hatred in order to save him from himself (from "Babylon 5" Season 3, Episode 6 "Dust to Dust")
What immense philosophical and emotional depth this show had!
I still credit B5 for starting the current "golden age" of television. It was far different than any show before it.
It's not too often a person gets to meet one of their gods
This scene is best piece of philosophy concerning the futility of hatred and vengeance I have ever came over.
One of the best parts of babylon 5. If you have not watched it and can handle the oldness of the show i recommend you watch it. There is more of this good stuff.
Andreas Katsulas as G'Kar was fantastic. He made G'Kar into an amazing REAL character. He's an amazing actor to have shown the emotional growth of G'Kar.
Sorry. Mixed up my accounts :-D
Turtle1631991. There was, of course, that same advice offered by the Nazerine and similar advice by Hilel the Elder two millennia ago. You may have come across that in your travels, but ignored it out of popular cultural bias. Even if you don't subscribe to mysticism or religion, the philosophy is sound. Remember that even Gkar's vision ended in seeing an ascended deliverer.
You do know that B5 was Christian metaphor from start to finish. No attempt at preaching, just trying to help. Tomorrow is always a new and fresh day with no mistakes in it, yet.
One might remember that the show's creator (J. Michael Strazynski) is an avowed atheist, and the "ascended delliverer" was simply the way Vorlons appeared to those who saw them. (Or did you watch the entire series?) This does not lessen the validity of the philosophy, but to ascribe religious significance is not an accurate perception of the creator's intent.
For those who have not watched this gem, it's pretty much the best television show, ever.
"I have always been here." That line gave me chills. Then seeing G'Lan with the epic music....wow, Babylon 5...just, wow.
Kosh did what he did to save not just G'Kar, but the entire Narn race, from themselves. They had a much greater destiny than power or politics or glory.
So did the Centauri.
Once in a while hearing G'kars words helps make sense of the chaos that is the real world.
This scene is one example of why I consider Babylon Five one of the greatest SciFi shows of all time. This scene is an example of outstanding writing that was filmed well and acted well.
"It doesn't matter anymore who startted it. It only matters who is suffering."
So damn true.
The line about being more difficult bothered me for a time. See Kosh wasn't just saying that G'kar could be tougher than he was before. He is saying that G'kar has the opportunity to do the most good by willingly choosing the path of greater suffering and struggle.
This series had some of the best monologues ever written. Deep, profound, and beautiful.
G'Kar is one of the greatest characters in television history.
"Some must be sacrificed, for all to be saved."
Damn... Still.
in the age of poor cgi and cheap production values, it was the stellar writing and performance of its cast that made b5 timeless.
It's amazing for how what could have been a hokey episode about Narn telepathy via drug abuse resulted in such a powerful and emotionally gripping scene. I wasn't ready for its message when I first heard it. It was only after the Sept.11th attacks that its message finally resonated with me...
That is what great fiction gives us, a perspective for our future.
I already understood the message from person experience when I first heard it. I used to be a very vengeful person myself. I very much connected with G'Kar. Before his revelation is like the way I used to be, and my friends now would probably compare me to him after the revelation. Struck home.
"The next time you want a revelation, could you possibly find a way that isn't quite so uncomfortable?" - Marcus Cole
G'kar's Father is played by Irish actor Jim Norton, aka. Bishop Brennan from "Father Ted".
So...... He DID kick him up the arse!!!
This show was on a level that few reach.
Few even know it's there.
I come here often, when I feel like ending myself. It is a true sign of greatness that I come to this scene to look for help. It is true perfection. Best series I have known in my life to the present day.
I’m so sorry to hear that man, but please don’t feel that way, I don’t know what you’re going through but you have so much to offer both to yourself and the world, don’t throw it away. God is always with you even in the worst of moments, if you accept him and embrace his teachings then he will give you the strength and guidance to overcome any tragedy or obstacle and live a better life. It might not mean much from a stranger, but I wish you the best all the same.
This scene is explaining what Kosh meant when he said "They are dying people" And he clearly started to care more for them than in the beginning. This scene is as much about him as i is about G'kar. I think Kosh didn't fight the shadows to prove the Vorlons were right. I don't think he cared if the Vorlons were right. He did it to stop their cycle of conflict and suffering. Kosh never tried to impose order or discipline on people - he only speaks about peace and the sacrifices that need to be done for it. He became one of those sacrifices. I really liked Kosh. Maybe if he was more straightforward he'd still be alive. Or maybe he'd just be misunderstood. His subtle character growth that one can see only after the shadow war, and after knowing the Vorlon ways, was really well made in my opinion. It's not as big as that of Londo and G'kar, but it is there.
Kosh is the only Vorlon to ever exhibit mercy and compassion instead of just being a detached observer like the rest of his race.
That's why Kosh was my favorite character! And it's not like we ever saw very many other Vorlons. Kosh was pretty cool, distant and apathetic when he first arrived at the station. ("We take no interest in the affairs of others.") Perhaps if other Vorlons had spent more time living among the younger races, they too would have developed compassion and empathy for them/us. At least the Vorlons didn't go around all willy-nilly blowing up everything in sight just to start a fight, at least not until the Shadows pushed them to it. (The Shadows were like the ultimate internet trolls, just itching to start a fight. Ugh!)
Oh _that's_ what he meant about sacrifices! At first reflection I interpreted that to be a defense of world purging.
I also like that when Kosh answers Sinclair's question about which race are the "dying people" with a "yes" he's answering both of Sinclair's questions at once. (The Narn AND the Centauri)
It's different from how characters like Kosh are usually portrayed. Ancient beings are often portrayed as static.
This was G’Kar at his lowest point. This was the point when he started to rise above who he had been before.
I always said, this scene right here would be some quality watching for Palestinians and Israeli ...
Or England and the IRA, or the "occupier" and the resistance.
And russian and ukrainian too(
I was just thinking the same thing
Still believe that in 2024??
@@panaderofilms More now than ever, for sure.
Amazing show. Kosh appears to G'Kar as his father, just as he later appears to Sheridan as his father.
Kosh gave g'kar his great wisdom. Later in the story arc. We find out. Kosh is talking from personal experience. With the vorlon an shadow conflict.
Some say it was Kosh who manipulated G'Kar into the Narn being cannonfodder, but in the end, his truths were universal, and it was G'Kar who had his revelation and sieze upon it, to enhance his and his peoples spirit.
This to me is one of my favourite scenes in all of television. It's powerful, has a life lesson, great acting and a really satisfying turn in a character arc. What more can you ask for?
The writing was too beautiful. So underappreciated.
This is the kind of paragon speech I wanted to hear in mass effect!
out of the entire Series this is probably my most favorite scene. It is simply that beautiful
And this, kids, is how you turn a bloodthirsty character hell-bent on vengeance into a Messiah.
and they plan on rebooting this, hard to mess with perfection!
Andreas Katsoulas of course was an outstanding actor and performer, all throughout this series. But the actor playing G'Kar's phantasm of a father brings this particular scene alive. Listen to the passionate pleading in his voice to bring G'Kar around from his vengeful mindset to see the bigger picture of what is happening - just plain pitch perfect in every way.
Kosh really wanted this cycle to end. His kindred were so obsessed with their goals that they were just as lost as the races they were meant to guide. Kosh removed himself from that cycle and finally found those who would break it. Its funny, he always speaks like a prophet when he is a vision, and yet as him self he speaks like a riddle.
Bab5 was an amazing series - touched on many issues using a science fiction setting! So sad that a few of the main characters have died (including Andreas Katsulas)
More than a few now:
Andreas Katsulas (G’Kar)
Richard Biggs (Dr. Stephen Franklin)
Michael O’Hare (Jeffrey Sinclair - Valen)
Jeff Conaway (Zach)
Stephen Furst (Vir)
@@dreadcthulhu5 And also Jerry Doyle (Garibaldi, in 2016) and Mira Furlan (Delenn, early 2021).
The Narn and the Centauri. The Shadows and the Vorlons. Ruin and stagnation.
God damnit JMS stop being so good with parallels.
G'Kar's turning point.
Guess he never knew he was just a pawn for the Vorlons.
Kosh had only a few lines through out the series, but had the most impact on the lives of those living on Babylon 5.
I love this scene. It's stuck in my mind all these years. Especially the part when he screams "ALL OF IT MOLARI!!'
this may be the most important episode in the series for G"kar.He makes the transformation from the evil and powerseeking narn that he was to the leader he was to become...this is when he saw himself for the first time and knew he had to change to save himself....from himself.
He was never evil, he was only consumed with rage and hatred
A good man can act badly when consumed with rage
There are three modes (three gunas) of existence, the mode of Ignorance, the mode of Anger/Passion and the mode of Goodness (the first 2 are destructive, only the last can allow for transcendence)
G'Kar was never ignorant, but he was angry, very angry and hateful, maybe it was partly justified, but he allowed it to become self-destructive.
This event moved him into the mode of goodness, and he helped to forge the Alliance (without him they would have lost the Shadow War and the Alliance would have died)
The 3 Gunas...I like that...but its neglacting one....the power of the ego. How much evil have been done in the name of label...identity alone....no cause...no substance...just identity.
Ego is part of ignorance
Ego is what keeps you trapped in materialism and the concept of body as self instead of soul
G’Kar’s character growth and his complicated relationship with Londo were my favorite parts of this series. The writing had such depth to it, truly my favorite series ever.
You call "mind rape" an act of a "good" man?
ALL OF IT MOLLARI....ALL OF IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
acting! hes was the best
Yes he was
G'Kar is the greatest science fiction character ever. He is wise but not perfect. And unlike any other show he was kind of a pervert. lol And he liked human women.
He is tied with londo.
And Centauri women.... And any women.....
To be fair, apparently human women liked him. A lot of the actresses on the show mentioned how sexy G'Kar was and it wasn't his appearance but his charisma and charm that made him kinda 'hot'. An interesting observation. Your mindset can improve your attractiveness to others. Confidence, wisdom, charm, charisma are all attractants to human beings. :D
Andreas was a fantastic actor.
G'Kar is my favorite character in Babylon 5. Such an incredible change from angry and revenge filled to a good loyal and honorable man.
Lando and Gkar elevated this show to greatness.
And Delenn and Sheridan.
The real Kosh, and G'Kar. Two of my personal heroes.
It's the dialogue and the style of story telling that utterly separates Babylon 5 from any comparison to Star Trek or Star Wars... And unlike the other two... It utilized themes and subjects that links directly into to our civilization and not some utopian visions or super natural ability that's never existed!
A fantasy... That's truly relatable!
The irony is that the Vorlons and Shadows still hadn't fully comprehended this lesson. Kosh himself finally did just before he died thanks to Sheridan.
Kosh had it exactly right. You don't need to bash the younger races over the head, resort to genetic manipulation, or even an active propaganda campaign to encourage them in the right direction. Sometimes, all it takes is the tiniest of subtle pushes, a few words said to someone with the capacity to become a great leader.
.... I have always been here.
Interesting that Kosh was moved enough to intervene. Presumably he sensed the interrogation mentally. I suspect that Kosh was always something of a progressive (as Vorlons go), but his association with the younger races on the station I think reminded him of the original goals of the First Ones, before the Vorlons and Shadows had their falling out.
"All this time... where have you been?"
"I have always been here."
Simple, and yet so poignant... Very possibly my favorite scene from the show. Katsulas and the other actor really surpassed themselves.
if only Kosh were here now to guide us all to revelation.
He has always been here... (inside each of us. Most of us just refuse to listen.)
Its sorta odd isnt it...if an extra solar being came here we would offer it world domination...for the merit simply of being not human.
Uh... not quite sure where you get that idea from. Whenever humans have encountered anyone who's the slightest bit different, it never turns out well, especially for the "weird" one(s). We certainly didn't offer the aliens domination of our world in the movie "Independence Day."
This is it. It already happened.
A message more relevant now then ever before...who has the courage to surrender them self's to break the cycle?
I do have to say this: Both Babylon 5 and Star Trek have a great story.
But Babylon 5, knows what to do. What to make you feel, what questions you have to ask. You can tell they made sure to make an interesting and profound story. Everyone has a character, everyone has a story, everyone has an adventure to deal and struggles.
Babylon 5 has always made sure to develop their characters. That's why I enjoy it and will keep enjoying it to the end.
I feel in someway that this was also a means for Kosh to make up for something his race allowed. When the Shadows were upon Narn centuries before the Shadows had eradicated the Narn telepaths. Centuries later G'kar sought a means of bringing Telepaths back to his people, but instead found a drug that enraged him beyond measure. The Vorlons could have stopped the Shadows for good long ago. Kosh knew it, but they didnt. This was his way of repairing that damage a little and setting the Narn on a better path.
This has to be one of the most profound scenes in the whole of Babylon 5 franchise!
this scene blows star war's and star trek out of the park for me because it touches something I think would come to most living beings come to all our lives. When we are at the precipice of choice and we go down one path or the other how many times maybe by dreams do we envision ourselves going down the unwanted path the dark path alone. We in our isolation a friend comes and picks us up dusts us off and said "come my friend" and guides us off on to a better path together. This scene rocks me to that place just a thought
I wish the people on both side of the political spectrum in America could watch this 🙂
We are all Kosh.
As Aliens go i thought G`Kar character was the kind of alien i would love to meet.
So many powerful lines in this scene, but what gets me every time is just G’kar breaking down and weeping; realising all the pain and suffering he has contributed to and what could have been avoided
I loved this scene, the best in Babylon 5 ever! "I have always been here!" The turning point of G'Kar life. A powerful lesson about the price of war revenge and war....consumed with hate only destroys you.
"I have always been here" even mirrors G'Kar's own great quote about a part of all of them staying with Babylon 5.
BABYLON 5 is AWESOME.
Andreas Katsulas's performance was made by the many great actors around him, including the guest actors. They complimented his performance.
"Who are you?"
"I am... a painful memory, and a promise."
It's not just what you do in life. It is also what you leave behind.
"There's no better present than a future."
Probably the best scene out of a show that had no shortage of them. Inspirational.
Without question, B5 is the story of G’Kar and Londo. They are the hub around which the rest of the story spins.
One of the most unrecognised greatest actors ever a brilliant performance along with his other brilliant colleagues starring in Babylon 5 I just love the way Molari and G'Kar trade insults and end up on the same side and there's a good reason G'Kar has his hands around Molari's neck 20 years later its just hard to believe almost all the episodes were written by one great writer JMS I would spell it out if I could J Michael Strazinski ?? How this guy wrote this stuff some in sequence some many years out of sequence there's just no other show like it except for the one series of Crusade It was rumored that the great JMS was to write the new story for the revamped Forbidden Planet but I guess it never eventuated its a hard act to follow that movie But I just love this show I was so happy when I discovered they had every series of Babylon 5 and Crusade with every TV movie and the beggining movie for Babylon 5 in a boxed set its just a must have for fans of this universe Great space battles no phaser beams or transporters or faster than light ships just the old jump gate concept immortalised in Robert A Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky Its just such a wonderful concept completely different to Star Trek and Star Wars but brilliant visuals on such a tight budget just an all round wonderful science fiction tale just brilliant
This is why Kosh Naranek is my favourite character on B5, his wisdom and affection for the Younger Races is exemplar. He grew over time to the point where his disgust with the endless cycles/swings of Order & Chaos led him to help the Younger Races discover another way out of the conflict that would break the endless cycle. He believed so strongly in this, that he forced his people into action, to intercede for the Younger Races. He would've been disgusted at his people's overreaction later after his passing with Planet-Killers after his voluntary self-sacrifice. As clearly they learned nothing from his example that the Younger Races needed to be offered proper guidance, not threatened into blind obedience.
Man, I wish I could give this comment about, oh, five thousand likes. No one ever really seems to understand Kosh in this way. They just lump all the Vorlons together and say "They're just as bad as the Shadows" or, more often, whine about how terrible they are for "manipulating" the younger races. Well, the way I see it is that the Vorlons gave us the gift of telepathy, taught us to behave in a civilized manner, and hell, they even rehabilitated Jack the Ripper! And like in this scene with G'Kar, they do most of that simply by giving us little nudges and suggestions about how a gentler, wiser approach would be better for everyone in the long run. With the Shadows though, wham-bang, you just immediately get a brain implant that FORCES you to do what THEY want, i.e. promote wars, violence and genocide. You're just a piece of replaceable organic machinery to them. That's why I'm so deeply troubled by how many B5 fans actually side with the Shadows because it speaks volumes about what kind of morals and ethics are valued by such a large portion of our society. You can't talk about this kind of stuff in fan groups without getting banned, but the parallels there with today's hostile political landscape are just so obvious. One side actually cares about people and their welfare; the other does not. It's so sad that more people can't "wake up" like G'Kar did.
@@billmcclure2171 It's their lack of empathy.
Living another person's life as G'Kar did with Londo, might teach anyone with any wits what they need to know.
@@stevetheduck1425 That’s exactly what JMS’s other show was all about. Pretty surprising coming from someone who’s often as callous and acerbic as his good buddy Harlan Ellison always was. P.S. Please say hello to your brother Howard for me.