Fixing 5e's Challenge Rating | Game Changer
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- Today, we talk about D&D's Challenge Rating system: where it went wrong, and what we can do to salvage it.
BattleSim: battlesim-zeta.vercel.app/
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💬 DISCORD: / discord
📘 MY HOMEBREW: trekiros.com
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PNGTuber avatar by KoffeineYT [ / koffeineyt ]
Music: Adventure by Alexander Nakarada (www.serpentsoundstudios.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons BY Attribution 4.0 License
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#dnd #gamedesign
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00:00 Intro
01:24 Simplicity Over Accuracy
04:46 One Formula, Many Tables
06:44 Monster Math
09:05 Ambiguous Labels
10:44 Outro
Follow-up video & Frequently Asked Questions: czcams.com/video/LOcVlJfeq1w/video.html
web app needs improvements,
soft delete enemies by setting count to 0
multiclass?
import or link to DnD beyond character sheets?
As a long-term homebrewer and constant "simulator" myself, I must tip my hat to you for making such an accessible and efficient tool. I hope you have plenty of people in your life who are as proud of you as you should be of yourself
BIG facts! This is SO DAMN COOL!
This guy is a true hero. Thank you very much, good sir!
What do you mean by simulator? :)
@@soMeRandoM670 I mean running mock scenarios with my homebrew and different party compositions
@@francisweller839I want to hear from you how well this has worked cause I am attempting to setup a campaign for me and friends and it would be very helpful if I can reduce my work load in the long run
A DND “fix” video that isn’t clickbait?? ❤
Can’t even imagine the amount of work that went into this.
I'm sorry but how is this not clickbait? How is this even a fix? All the video does is explain why the CR system isn't working well for most people... and then offers a tool that completely bypasses the CR system.
It's a useful tool, I'll give it that, but there is nothing in the video or tool that "fixes 5e's challenge rating". The CR system could not exist in the first place (and not need to be fixed) and this would work just as well. It just automates what most people are already doing: ignoring the challenge rating and just trying to estimate how a fight is going to go.
@@araonthedrake4049 Fair criticism tbh.
I only realized this after posting the video, but I glossed over how I got to this solution. BattleSim is the 4th iteration of me trying to solve challenge rating in 5e.
My first attempt was much closer to the current challenge rating system. But with each iteration, I realized, the method was less important to me than the end goal: being able to quickly and accurately tell how an encounter is likely to go. So while I did spend a couple years doing what game designers cynically call "polishing a turd", eventually, this led me to BattleSim. But it took 4 years to get there, not just the 10 minutes of this video. Here was my first attempt:
www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/ce383d/customizable_5e_encounter_calculator/
This is absolutely insane lmao, and I mean that as the highest form of praise.
You actually (de)coded "vibe"-based encounter balancing and extrapolated it into a set of statistics.
Bro, when he said it was only his sixth video it blew my mind. The quality of these videos are easily on par with channels doing similar content, like pointy hat.
You are doing amazing work, and thank you for this!
(Also only realized while writing this that Pointy Hat only has 33 videos... You guys are incredible!)
The reason I'm offering free stuff with each video miiiiiiight be that Pointy Hat is my favorite channel :p
Crazy. This guy puts love into his videos.
@@Trekiros well maybe Pointy Hat and Trekiros - Game Changer are my favourite ttrpg channels! :p
literally what I was thinking reading the section. The video is really good
"Just getting started" already more comprehensive and logical than 80% of other DnD youtubers. Bravo my good Modron, instant like and subscribe
This comment is brought to you by Standard Array Gang.
Also thank you for creating Battle Sim because it's not only a fantastic tool but also it's proven that my back-of-a-napkin fudges for encounter difficulty were actually spot on all this time. My ego expresses its gratitude!
My rule has been to make sure the main baddy requires 2-3 hits to down a single player. Minions should only be annoying. Ie. 10 minion hits to down a player.
@@Taparu2 [takes notes takes notes takes notes]
@@Taparu2 is that based on the highest HP character or the lowest, or some median, just for reference?
@@abcrasshadow9341 I keep my players at the same level so there isn't usually an enormous hp gap. I would say lowest if I had to pick. Remember though that 20 dmg is 2 hit kill to someone 21 hp or someone with 40. Therefore a large hp range is covered by this rule.
Sir, please know you're an absolute madlad of great quality.
Great idea and execution of this. Probably the best way to try to navigate the blurry state of encounter balancing in 5E.
May this tool help those poor DMs running their own games outside of published adventures, as they seem strangely forgotten by WOTC.
This is a great tool! The original CR-System is so broken, that it only takes 4 normal frogs (which don't even have an attack) to count as a deadly encounter against one Level-1 character.
A normal frog is worth 0 XP, so no matter how many there are the encounter will always be below Easy.
Dude, I am a relatively novice DM, and I'm currently preparing my own material... Calculating CR has been such a pain in the neck and so confusing that I basically came to conclusion that the only adequate way to assess the danger and balance everything is to run the encounter multiple times on my own. Your tool is going to save me and many others hours of preparation, for which I thank you with all sincerity that I have. Amazing work, keep it up, please!
I make it very clear to my players whenever we sit down at the table that as a DM, I see stat sheets as a suggestion. I always tailor encounters to what I want the party to experience. If I put together a set piece where my players are up against a Roc while the sky echos with thunderous roar and the crashing tides threaten to pull them into the jagged depths, I'm not letting the fact that they are only level 5 or 6 stop that. As a bonus, this throws a wrench onto the mind of the metagamer and adds real value to the knowledge skills.
I really like that but instead I prefer to flavor the monsters with a new coat of paint. Where a experienced player would normally recognize I am using a Roc, I instead describe it differently but use the same stat sheet. This makes the stat sheets more of a template for my combat usage (which I really enjoy)
Very interesting. Cool tool too!
I work using the same kind of prediction in a spreadsheet, not taking into account any deathspiral that may occur.
1. set the order in which the party will kill the monsters (or experiment this later)
2. use hp, ac, saves, and average player damage to calculate each monster's time-to-kill in rounds
3. calculate monster lifetime in rounds: the first monster to be killed will last only their own time-to-kill but last monsters they kill will have lived the longest: the sum of all time-to-kills.
4. use monster damage to calculate their total damage in the encounter
Now you've got a few interesting stats:
- expected number of rounds
- expected suffered total damage (when players focus-fire and monsters don't at all)
If the total damage done by the monsters is bigger than the party's total remaining hp, you probably made it as hard as you'll ever want it to be, since perfect PC target prioritization and bad target prioritization by the monsters will likely still lead to a TPK, especially since death spirals aren't take into account. In this kind of fight, the player will have to be lucky or make good tactical decisions to win.
I try to minimize the number of rounds (lower HP/higher DMG), while finding a sweet spot in damage taken depending on the mood I'm looking for.
Your tool can do the same thing I see, and is more fine-grained. It's not the best for homebrew (yet) I think.
I think my own sheet helps me out better for now, because I use the sheet to design creatures while designing the encounter.
But if I were to run some book-only things, I'll try it out.
Nicely done! I also thought about trying something like this but was overwhelmed by the amount of data input. You deserve serious kudos for actually doing it!
This is an amazing project! Super excited to see how it progresses.
A couple things I've noticed so far.
1. it seems to assume party members will never heal their downed allies. So if a party member goes down, they're assumed to stay down for the remainder of the conflict. not the most accurate in my experience.
2. it doesnt seem to handle druids getting knocked out of wild shape very well. Instead of reverting to their base HP, the druid just dies when their wildshape gets hit. Paired with the first point, a druid that in real life would've continued to be very relevant will be simulated as just not part of the fight for most of it.
Dang, this this is incredible. In one of the official DungeonTalk podcast episodes, J-Craw talked about how the internal WOTC challenge rating spreadsheet is different than the published one. Theirs adjusts by decimal point, but the published CR information does it with whole numbers.
It seems like you've been able to kind of crack that, and it's really impressive. I hate the current challenge rating system and a TON of what 5e does with its "do it however you want!" approach to DM advice. This app is incredibly useful.
This is a pretty impressive tool. There are some aditional features it would be nice to see added, such as damage reduction, maybe a category of passive abilities, or reactions.
But they say that if a lawful alligned creature attempts to read javascript they must succeed a DC 25 wisdom saving throw or fall under the effects of the feeblemind spell, so I'm not volunteering to code any new features.
All three of these are already implemented, actually!
If you make a lv5 rogue, you'll get Uncanny Dodge as an example of a damage reduction ability that's a reaction
Vampires, Trolls and others have examples of regeneration as a passive ability
I tried to keep the simulator as simple as possible so it wouldn't take longer to input the encounter than to actually run it, but for very impactful stuff like that, I made sure it was possible to tell the simulator about it!
@@Trekiros ah, I see. I should have looked at the presets some more before jumping straight to the customise options.
The elder language of “jahveh-schript” is something I do not understand, but must respect.
I'm pretty new in the DM world but I realized on day one that those standard CR are often not even to be taken as guidelines.
Thank you for making this tool, after the last session I literally thought about testing all those encounters beforehand.
Luckily I found your video just in time. I'm looking forward to more of your content.
The crazy thing about a rakshasa is that it's CR could potentially be way under tuned in a party of spell casters. I'm glad to see a tool like this to help balance while taking party composition into account.
Thank you very much for this, I always struggled with encounter-balancing myself and i will definitely try this out
There are at least a dozen easter eggs in this video. Which ones have you found? 😇
I don't know if they're easter eggs but I do enjoy the variety of VTT's you're using to illustrate your points. Owlbear Rodeo icons ftw. My VTT of choice when Tabletop Simulator is not an option for everyone.
@@laguaridadelgremlin That one was a lucky coincidence, but Owlbear Rodea ftw indeed :p
Do you have a Discord?
@@yunusahmed2940 Yup, link in the video description!
Tarrasque pops up when you mention monsters that don't perform well...
Probably the most amazing tool I have seen for 5e since I started GMing. It deserves to be known world wide. Thank you so much for this!
This is staggeringly amazing. Incredibly impressed with the idea behind this. Haven't used the tool yet though, so i cant comment on the quality of the actual tool.
Don't usually comment but I am genuinely impressed, and thankful this was recommended to me. Fantastic work, and a beautiful tool that I will certainly use a lot in prep. Sharing this with all the DMs I know.
The last video I watched from you was the video about legendary resistances, which I hated and thought was wrong about a lot. Then I saw this video and have to say I was EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL not only did I not like your takes on that video, but I also am a HUGE fan of the CR system and lastly there is a bunch of videos on CZcams videos talking about the failings of CR which often misses the point of the system and therefore don't actually bring up a failing but rather dislike a design choice.
You, on the other hand, did not fall into this trapping, and I absolutely love what you did here. I kept waiting to see you slip up, but the time never came. You just made good points and reasonable fixes that did not change how we ought to approach the game.
The only small tiny issue I have is that you got rid of the easy-deadly scale, (which I do think you have a good reason for doing) a thing I would be interested in instead, since you took that away is a scale on how much resources and what percentage of what kind of resources were burned since that is all the old system was really trying to get at anyway. Something like 12% of party's max health used, 10% of party's spells used, 20% of miscellaneous or individual party members resources expended (things like rage, ki points, battle Master stuff, all would go here). Also, I think it would be fair to allow a toggle on and off of the original wording for easy-deadly just for a reference with it turned off from the start.
Amazing video and amazing website. I can't wait to see more of your videos.
I'll buy the books when WOTC stops sending mercenaries to people's houses to steal their cards.
Hirelings
Running a west marches game and constantly having to plan for different party comps. This is a gift as lvls get higher. Thank you!
Looking forward to giving this a try. Had my first PC death last week and I still don't know how
I love your videos! Its so awesome how much efford you put into every one of them and they are not only very informative, but also really fun to watch. Really looking forward to your next ones
Okay, this is only the second video of his that I've watched and already I don't know how I survived as a DM beforehand. All these things are so useful.
- Made a complex app because computers have way more brainpower than people
- Absolutely loves standard array
- Just went and fking entered all of the monster stat blocks
- Reject subjective labels, just gives you all the data
oh so this is a channel run by an actual entity from the clockwork realms, I see
I’ve been really impressed with your takes and video quality for such a new channel, and this seemed a wild jump in scope and thoroughness. If this is where the channel is starting, I’m super interested in where it goes. Keep it up!
Such consistent quality, always a delight to watch a Trek video 😄
Absolutely killing it with these videos, my guy! You've been helping me a lot as a new DM get my encounters in working order, so huge thanks for that
Holy crap. I wasn't expecting such a well worked out and thought out tool! First time I've watched one of your videos, immediately subscribed - huge props!
this looks fantastic! Unfortunately, three of my five PCs are multiclass, which seems very difficult to adjust on here (I gather I can probably add actions from the Less Mechanically Impactful side into the equation, but I dunno how that will effect things in a more complex simulation like this)
Anyway, congrats and keep up the good work!
And please let me know if multiclass options ever get added in!
This is incredible, I am genuenly baffled by how great the Dnd community is, there are so many creators such as yourself whio just give out unbelivable cool stuff like this on a regular bases. And as a Computer Scientist in the making I am fairly certain that this tool was actualy a lot of work. I am genuenly amazed...
That is some next-level dedication. Thank you for putting all that work into BattleSim. I'm looking forward to trying it out.
Great work on the sim! Just one thing: i noticed that most resistances, like a werewolf resistance to non silvered weapon, are absent. Still it really surprised me because it trivialized encounters i thought hard, I don't know if my assumptions were wrong (I am still a newbie dm) or if it somehow favours the party.
Looking forward to trying this and thank you for doing all this hard work and freely sharing it!
Was literally just thinking about coding this, you're the goat!!!! I can't believe your not a bigger youtuber!
You are a real G. Been wanting a powerful yet simple calculator to determine a realistic enemy encounter based on my party.
Ok, Quasi-Modron aside, this is a fantastic video. Hell, the topic is brilliant and you've provided something that's incredibly actionable. Best of all, unlike a lot of game advice about D&D out there, you've provided the lego bricks but not told people what to build. Love it. Now to slowly (next 1 hour) go through your other videos to enjoy (consume like an addict) your videos! Lookin forward to more!
You put way too much work into this, and I'm ABSOLUTELY here for it! First video I've seen from you, but as a fledgling DM who's slowly trying to find his footing, prepping combat encounters has been tough. This is an incredibly helpful tool!
This is fantastic content, first video from you I've seen in my recommended and now I'm going back to watch the rest. Keep it up!
This is the first video of yours that I've seen and it's exactly what I needed! Keep up the good work!
Yo!! It's finally been done! We've needed this for so long!!!
(Commenting for the algorithm, not because I have anything unique to add. Everyone needs to see this)
wow, this thing is gonna save me so much time! thanks for putting in so much time and work into this, what a great resource!
Brilliant work. And highly surprising that this is only your 6th video! I have subbed and look forward to seeing more.
Well argued and presented.
Also on another note. I really enjoy the pink outline on your font in the tumbnails its pleasant to look at and makes it easy to see its your dnd content.
I just used this tool to help balance the big battles for my very first session. The ones that I used it for were much more interesting and tense than the ones I didn't use it for. Thank you c:
Ma dude, you deserve all the praise you could get. DnD has been around for 50 years, and you made something that changes the way DM's work in a masterful way. hope you get the recognition you deserve
Honestly I cannot even express how much I love this website. I have had a lot of trouble with challenge rating, to the point I threw out the numbers and used a feeling more than anything. This really helps a ton.
Just discovered your channel and wow, INCREDIBLE takes. Keep at it!
this is fantastic and you are absolutely mad (affectionate) for putting this together. thank you for making this DM's life sooooo much easier
Dudeeee you are insane, thank you for all that work, Ill share this video with all my dm friends, keep it up ;)
I am extremely impressed by this!
This will be greatly useful for planning. You put so much customization while keeping it easy to use.
Truly well done!
This looks amazing! Subscribed, I hope to see more content like this 👏
The point buy mafia have noted your dissent.
Seriously though, this might be *the* tool I consistently use, thank you so much!
This was an incredibly well done video and I am thoroughly excited to checkout battle sim!
Wow. Really impressive Work on the backend. As always 😊
I litterally spent a month trying to do this on excel since i don't speak the ancent language, I am so happy to see this
I'm not gonna lie your comment about how many dungeons you put in your dragons just gave me a campaign idea of really really big dragons...
Same, imagine you have like a sleeping dragon but only its mouth can be seen the rest looks like mountains, then you could also have the nostrils be a sort of trap because they either push you from a brige or pull you from the brige in periods(to hint at your players that it might me a real sleeping dragon, because you are not gonna tell them.) As soon es they then get into the dragon or get a meguffin of sorts the drafon awackens and now the mission is to get to the earth safely.
this is super awesome! from one DM to another, thank you 🙏
Man, that looks amazing, I love how you broke the problem down and then proceeded to create free solution for everyone! Definitely going to use it in the future
dude this is insanee thanks very much for this tool! Definitely going to try it out
DAAAAAYUM, all praise lord trekiros for his brilliant hard work! Nobody's doing it like him!
Thank you! This looks usefull :D Got a few encounters coming that I want to balance so thanks for making this tool.
This looks fantastic. Glad to have stumbled across you!
Props to you! This is something I've wanted to do for a while, but lacked the time and programming knowledge. Looking forward to trying it out!
A mind blowing amount of work and thought went into this. Major props
This is awesome. A quick check of my estimates for my level 10 group vs a level 10 dragon ends up with the same estimate you have. A possible improvement is to add in a value that shows the estimated resources used in the encounter. In general my group feels like they need a long rest after using 50-55% of their resources. I assume each group will vary. Resources include HP, spell slots, inspiration points, superiority dice, etc.
Amazing work, I can see this helping lots of people!
You are a hero. I feel like fine tuning everything is going to be a bit tedious at first, but if this tool can help me finish my campaign in a satifying manner i will be forever grateful.
Right at the moment you said that you had to input stats of hundreds of monsters by hand I realised how much I love pf2e for it has free online database with all monsters stats, spells, magic items ets that you can easily interact with using JS
This is great, thank you for all the effort you've put into this!!!!
This is a great help will have fun making an encounter with this, Thanks!
This is incredible! Thank you for your hard work!
This is just become my new favorite tool. You're absolutely brilliant.
Outstanding!! ❤ Thank you for the hard work! Can’t believe I have just now found this.
Oh hell yeah I am trying this out. Thank you so much for the in-depth and easy to follow video as well! I've subscribed for more (and to do ten million damage)
Amazing tool, you have my respect for all your hard work. Thank you!
Wow this must have taken so much time and effort. Thank you!
Great work. Exceedingly helpful. Well explained and entertainingly so. Thank you. I've subscribed.
How did you know that I needed this!? I'm currently preparing to run my first campaign as DM and am so worried about balancing the encounters - this changes everything!
Absolutely great tool. One of the most deserved like and subscribes I have ever given.
Just found your channel from this video, very impressed with the tool you've built! And impressed at the dedication to input all those monster stats!
Subbed and looking forward to seeing more and playing with the tool more
This is incredible, so much work goes into creating something like this. You are an absolute badass. Thank you so much for creating such an awesome tool!
Love what you did there mate. Hope you keep it up.
I love this! Amazing work, that surely must have talen ages!
I have tried a similar method of more accurate calcluations using an excel-spreadsheet, but this is much more advanced!
Totally going to use this from now on
Thank you so much for this, I love that it allows you to add monsters to the party
I once saw someone else make something similar, but this tool is far more approachable as someone who is not used to staring at spreadsheets! Thanks so much!
What a gift. The effort and dedication shows in the quality of the simulator wow. Thank you.
Yes! This is what computers where meant to be used for! Not writing , not painting, but simulation and raw hard math! Thank you for your work.
WHAT THE HECK it's amazing work, thank you so much!
This is a really cool idea and i bet it took a lot of work. thanks for making it
This is my new favorite channel. Tackles the real issues and provides the detailed answers I didn't even know I needed.
you are criminally underrated I'm watching this for the 4th time and keep sharing it with my friends so it gets boasted. this is brilliant
This is really awesome, I was actually planning on making a similar system myself, but I'm glad I don't have to! Awesome job!
I've been using the encounter builder in DND beyond, and all the things you explained were spot on, all my encounters have been "deadly" in DNDb standards, but I like to give magic items to my player as a way of granting them a sense of progression while not speeding up the leveling process. So, I've been tweaking the monsters hp and damage in the middle of an encounter for the sake of storytelling and immersion more often than I'm proud of. So from the bottom of my noob dm heart, thanks!