Your shift demonstration ride brings back this memory: years ago I was chatting with a SEPTA bus driver on his lunch break in Philly and he invited me to ride along for a turn. I had time, so off we went. Corner to corner folks getting on and off. I asked about the trans, an allison angle drive job- he said it was just a torque converter that locked up at 50 mph. " Here, I'll show you" and we took off. He had that 6v71Detroit screaming under the back seat, and it was a rough street, everything rattling, windows, doors, everything. Finally, the little detroit suddenly bogged down and a loud screech came from the transmission as the lock-up clutch tried to grab ahold of the engine. He yelled "SEE THERE IT IS!" then slammed on the brakes panic style and dove for the curb. Stopped right at the bus stop sign. Doors open. I turned around and the passengers looked terrified, and two women behind me, who didn't seem to know each other, were clutching each other. Quite a bus ride!
Good lord! I can only imagine what would happen to that bus driver in the times we're living in now. Fired, news footage, law suites, public banishment...
I has a friend with a 63 Starfire convertable. 394 4 barrel, Roto Hydramatic. Three rebuilds later, he said "as long as I drive it like a grand ma" it's fine. First time I get on it, it's back to the trans shop!
@@olds394Why not, morons designed the thing, according to my old boss, who worked on many of them, lol. I did trans work exclusively for 20 years, got out of it back in '96, and have heard all the stories, but have never seen one.
What Mark said about other drivers is spot on. I hate driving my 62 Lincoln for the exact reasons that he gave. I leave space between me and the car in front in case they stop quickly. 9 times out of 10 some a@@wipe on their cell phone driving their SUV will cut in front of me. This happens in six lane traffic and also on local artery streets. Part of the problem is none of the drivers under 40 years old ever had drivers ed. Get off my lawn! Lol
Big cause of people who dont know how to drive is technology. The tech in cars these days basically allows people to ignore half the road and get away with it. In my 1992 taurus even people cut in front of me and swerve around and tailgate me all the time (even if im going 80+ on the expressway). They just dont understand that their life and others' are at risk every time they get behind the wheel. Maybe I should become a DMV drivers license tester so I can fail all the people who don't deserve to pass 😂
I have a couple of comments about both the engine and the transmission... First the engine. At the time when these were still on the road and in wide use, I was working in a Buick dealership full time and in an independent transmission shop nights and weekends. At the Buick dealership, we got quite a number of those V-8s in with leaking head gaskets. In most cases, the leaks were external in that they leaked coolant out of the sides of the head gaskets. Otherwise, the engines were quite reliable, and were not prone to putting rods through the side of the block like the infamous Buick 350 that was used in LeSabre and Skylark cars. As to the transmission, the biggest defect was really some poor engineering. For first gear, they used an internal fluid coupling instead of a torque converter. This had some pretty poor efficiency, which made for a soft engagement, but a really "slippy" first gear. When they shifted into second, the input shaft was coupled directly into a planetary gearset with full mechanical drive. At this time, for whatever reason, the fluid dumped out of the fluid coupling only to refill for third gear. Somebody must have really sat up nights figuring all of this out! One odd thing was that the input shaft was splined directly into a damper plate on the engine's flywheel, so removing one from the car was like a stick shift with cooler lines. Weird! I tried to repair one of them on my own, and never did get it to work right. I even took it to some of the old school guys for help, and even they couldn't find out what I did wrong. I finally just bought another transmission and ate the job. hope to never see another one of them!
Was the 350 known for throwing rods out of the block because of oiling issues or because of the quality of the rods? I owned a Buick 350 and I’ll attest to the block architecture being very strong and very well designed. Never knew they were known for throwing rods out of the blocks but I knew that they had famous oiling issues. Same as the 455.
@@theeoddments960 Probably more for oiling issues. When I worked in a Buick dealership, we would have an average of 2 a week towed in with rods hanging out the sides of the block. It was quite a treat to get one of them to the upstairs shop up the ramp equivalent of a boxed staircase.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH Jim, I think you have answered my current "Buick bewilderment" in your explanation of the very odd - pressure plate looking flexplate bolted to the crank of my fully complete '62 Buick 215 (even the plug wires are still connected) I got for $250. My next issue is I have to figure out a proper flexplate to match to my narrow bellhousing ('91 Camaro V6) t-700r with small converter. Already have the adapter kit eng. to trans. Cheers.
I never noticed much tranny peculiarity going from my '57 Olds 98 Starfire to '62 Olds Jetfire, maybe the turbocharged V8's big torque masked the tight shifts... '62 auto shifted at 4400 RPMs max... valve lifters pumped up by 4600 RPMs when manually shifting it with 50K miles on it... boost pressure on the underside of intake valves prolly contributed to lower RPMs pump up... Problem I did have with the '62 was the downshift valve started sticking in the valve body preventing being able to push the exhilarator pedal down... bought a '62 Buick special for $100 with 3 speed on the tree manual tranny and swapped that assembly in to replace the auto tranny... plus a floor shifter... czcams.com/video/Jzw5W1rRMog/video.html The TH350 auto tranny in my '75 Monte Carlo had imperceptively smooth shifts... The TH350 and TH400 are variations of the Chrysler TorqueFlite and GM even paid royalties to the same inventor... 200-4R/700R4 and 4L80 were 4th gear added overdrive versions of them...
It sounds like there are some straight cut planetary gears. Lovvve the pod IP. Such a cool car. Makes me sad they weren't more of a success. Fascinating. Thanks for Showcasing.
I could live with the rough shifts, but the unreliability is such a detriment to an entire generation of otherwise excellent GM cars. There was a 63 Catalina for sale near me recently, absolutely gorgeous, but I don't have the confidence to live with a slim Jim in today's world of difficulty trying to get parts and not pay a ridiculous fortune for them. Love the brochures! Automobile marketing back in those days is almost as much fun as the cars themselves.
If I were to get a car with a slim jim, original or not I'd feel bad for letting it sit due to their questionable reliability, so I'd probably end up trying to find a Jetaway or Powerglide to swap into it, or maybe a 700r4 if they make a BOP bell housing adapter for them.
@@mdogg1604 Damn, that's pretty impressive. By OD do you mean something like a 700R4/4L60 where gear 4 is basically your OD, or a manual with OD? If it's getting 23 with an auto that's pretty insane.
It was either the 200 or 700 automatic OD. I think some custom adapter/machining was necessary. I believe the 23 mpg claim. I still get over 25 mpg on the interstate with my '90 Cad DeVille. @@lsswappedcessna
The reason for the harsh 1-2 shift on these, and also the 2-3 in the earlier original 4-speed Hydramatic, is that it has to simultaneously engage and disengage two elements. The 4-speed used two 2-speed gearsets in a row, each providing either direct or reduction, so the 2-3 shift there was one gearset going from direct back into reduction while the other goes into direct. If one goes into reduction before the other goes into direct, 2-3 becomes more like a 2-1-3 and the engine flares up in the middle, while if the other goes into direct first, it becomes a 2-4-3 and briefly bogs down. However, since that transmission used regular clutches and bands, that simultaneous shift could still be somewhat accurately timed. Some modern transmissions do have 2-element shifts just with clutches and bands, and the shifts are electronically timed with a computer, but they still give harsher shifts than ones that have exclusively single-element shifts. On the Roto, one of the elements being controlled is actually the torque converter which gets emptied and filled with fluid to act as a clutch. In first, it's filled, and then on the 1-2 shift it has to empty and the front clutch apply simultaneously. However, emptying the torque converter of fluid obviously takes a lot longer than releasing a clutch, and therein lies the problem: both the clutch and converter filled gives third gear (direct), and it'll always take longer to empty the converter than apply the front clutch. Furthermore, emptying and filling the converter is dependent on the viscosity (related to temperature) of the fluid, so it's not very consistent. Thus during the 1-2 shift, while the converter is emptying but the front clutch has applied, the transmission is actually in 3, so 1-2 is always like a 1-3-2 shift. This is further harshened by the fact that 2 doesn't involve any transfer of power through a fluid but is a direct mechanical connection from the engine through the gearset to the output. Then the 2-3 shift is very soft since it only has to fill the converter again. Looking at the hydraulic schematics, it seems they did try to soften the 1-2 by slipping the front clutch with a pretty complex system of valves for the timing, but that only leads to higher wear and shorter service life. The TH400 that replaced it and became a GM standard was and is highly regarded as one of the best in reliability and shift quality; all of its shifts are single-element. tl;dr: Rotos always shift 1-2 roughly because they have to do two things at the same time or else end up in 3rd briefly, but one of those two things (the converter emptying) will always be slower than the other. Trying to slow the other thing down (the clutch applying) makes it wear out faster.
Sorry to have to correct you, but that unit in the middle of the transmission is NOT a torque converter. It is a fluid coupling. A torque converter needs to have a STATOR to direct oil flow. In this case, there is NO STATOR, thus making it a fluid coupling. Just two elements - pump and turbine. No stator.
@@jimgarofalo5479 there''s a stator, but it's not on a one-way clutch like a typical torque converter. It's mounted to the output shaft. Weird design choice, but nonetheless, it still multiplies torque from a standstill so I would consider it a torque converter. Oldsmobile marketed it as the "accel-a-rotor", and you can see at 00:45 in the lower right corner. There's a disassembly video here on CZcams (just search for it) where at 15:50 you can clearly see the stator being pulled out. The original Hydramatic and the Controlled Coupling use true 2-element fluid couplings.
All of those sounds of the transmission shifting, the mechanical sounds, make you love these cars from the sixties. Glad to see this model in such great shape.
Neat car. New cars will never compete with the ride of the older American cars. Back when comfort and cruising was prioritized over the rough, tight, sporty feel found in todays cars. Great video.
Adam, thanks again for your 2nd video on the 1961 F-85. During my junior year (1963-1964) in high school, I had a similar 1962 4-door standard F-85 - white with blue interior, auto and factory a/c. Showing off to my buddies, I backed out of a driveway and slammed the gearshift into Drive whilst still rolling backwards. An incredible clunking noise eminating from beneath the floorboards ensued. After much worry, I took it to our only Olds-Cadillac dealer for an inspection. A workorder with the notation "auto needs a rebuild" and a $214 quote shook my little 17-year-old world. As my part time job as checker at a grocery store earned an incredible $1.15 per hour, I didn't know where to turn. A customer suggested that her auto mechanic husband have a look. A day later, Ray test drove it, pulled to the side of the road, lifted the hood, asked me to give it a little gas while holding the brake. From beneath the hood, I could see the engine raise up as torque was applied. Long story short, he replaced the engine.mounts and the noises went away. Small shop mechanics are a LOT better than certain dealerships. The only thing that I miss from that little F-85 was the "Ka-WOO" moan from that 2-bbl carb under hard acceleration!
The station wagon looks much like the Corvair wagon. I wish I still had the 1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon that I used to drive around in the late 1970ʻs. It was a really nice size. My dad had modified the engine (a 1964 Monza engine, base HP 110 but ours put out about 180), put stiffer springs and shocks on it, and it had the 4-speed manual (no PowerGlide, yay!). It was a lot of fun.
@@nunyabidniz2868I've had 3 early corvairs they were all sticks& reliable.I've heard they were strong as behind v8. With v8 swap they would still hold up
Listening to the upshift from 1st to 2nd brings back memories of a buddy of mine's 1964 Olds Dynamic 88. Since the car had a 394 cid V8, it moved quite well, but that upshift from 1st to 2nd is unforgettable. Oh, and it had an enormous trunk, ice-cold factory air conditioning, and that dashboard mounted sensor that automatically dimmed the high beams.
Auto hibeam... heehee... Where I am it's even easier. Half the drivers don't bother turning them off. The other half have those new lights that blind you anyway... I hate driving at night now.
@@adotintheshark4848 had a few hydramatic Cadillacs 1/2 shift was fast, usually before you cleared intersection 2/3 was big jump 3/4 was close again like 1/2
Good video! I've subscribed. I learned a bit about the Roto-hydramtatic. Never knew there were two versions, never knew the senior compacts used it. However, it was very hard to hear/sense what the transmission was doing thanks to ten minutes of non-stop conversation about how smooth the ride was ! 🙂
Adam, every session with Mark is a treat. The F85 drive was a revelation, but then what was GM thinking when it released the rapidly proven to be unreliable Sim-Jim Roto Hydra-Matic to the public?
@denniswilson8013 that makes no sense, the powerglide transmission they used in the rest of the cars was amazing albiet only a 2 speed - racers still use them to this day
It's litterally a grandma transmission because this car was aimed at older buyers, it was also aimed at being an economical option next to the manual transmission something grandmas bu 1961 didn't want. I think it was even cheaper to make than a powerglide two speed. But I would still take that transmission any day over this. My dad and I seen them all the time for sale at swap meets for that reason. Most would take the two speed over this too. But from a marketing perspective to an older person more speeds must mean smoother, superior ride an unfortunately not so much. I would call it one of GM's worst. There might be others one could name, the slim-jim was one of the wost I've seen.
That drive was actually sort of fun, to me! The idiosyncrasies of these ancient classics are really fun. But I'd say that if the Roto-Hydra-matic was paired with a four-cylinder, it might actually stall it! 🤣
After owning and servicing 6, 1964 Oldsmobile, FS models, I opted to swap in a TH400, behind the 394, of my ‘64 98 Coupe. What a major difference it made. Bought my first one, while attending tech college in Lima Ohio, circa 1983. My automatic transmission instructor, had been a GM line tech, when these were new. When asked if I could fix Slim Jim, he told me, “Son, they were junk then and they are junk now” Thanks for sharing this delightful video. Love the car.
The sound of the transmission brings back memories! I really like the script on the dash of this car. It was also interesting to see that it was not equipped with a radio. And the interior/dash looks as great as the exterior. P.S. They used to measure trunk capacity difrerntly than they do today.
I had one of these transmissions in my Australian 1964 EH Holden . I loved it, but they did not last too long, maybe 100,000 miles with the small 6 cylinder engines. I had a Australian Trimatic (turbo hydra 180 to you) fitted in 1988, still in there 35 years later. but a big drop in fuel economy. 24-25 mpg down to 19-20 mpg
I learned to drive on our 1963 Olds Super 88, with the "Ultra High Compression" Rocket V8, and Roto Hydramatic. The drive brought back (bad) memories. My best friend's mother had a 1963 F-85, which she bought used. The transmission failed not more than a year after she bought the car. Her replacement for the F-85 was a 1964 Dynamic 88.... Same boggy transmission, but it didn't crap out. Great to see Marc again!
We had a 62 Olds full size wagon and we had it for about 20 years. It was really a wonderful car. We liked the way it shifted. When the car was about 10 years old with about 100k miles, we did need a transmission repair. But again, we loved the way this car shifted and we loved the powerful engine.
So good to see the drive video of this car. Reminds me of my parents '62 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans. Loved riding in that car, and wish they'd kept it around until I was old enough to drive. Continued thanks for your videos.
My first car was "my father's Oldsmobile"...a '61 F-85 station wagon with the Rockette V-8 and the Roto Hydra-Maric. The engine overheated, and the transmission leaked like a sieve and finally went out on me after a relatively short time. My dad ended up getting me a 1964 Chevelle with a 230 six and a Powerglide! Oddly enough, my dad had a' '63 Star Chief with the four-speed Super Hydra-Matic (which was a tank!)
My 1st car was a Pontiac with this trans. Had it "rebuilt" & still had problems. Only good thing about it, it motivated me to trade it for low mileage '67 Impala convertible.
I remember back in the early 60’s, Dad bought Mom a nice new car after my brother came along. It was a 61 F 86 Sport Wagon, that I remember fondly. There were bucket seats in front and three rows, with enough room for 6 adults, or 5-6 kids and a driver. I’m not sure of the transmission, but I know it had an aluminum V8 w/4 brl dual exhaust, as Dad loved cars. I remember going for ice-cream in sat nights after the softball games, with Dad driving an coaching, plus three wagons full of the team’s players, the other two wagons were a 59 Chevy Impala with a 283, and the other was a 60 Ford Country Squire with a V8 is all I remember. There was this long uphill stretch with two lanes on each side, with a slow speed truck lane on the uphill side making it three lanes. When we all approached the hill we would all start yelling last car to the top PAYS! Well let’s just say Dad never had to pay, but he always did anyway, he was better off that the other two Dads, one of whom was his brother in law, my uncle, in the big Ford. But it was the big Chevy that always came in last, with at least one more kid than the other two! Since then I’ve always loved the sound of the secondaries opening in a 4 brl carb!!
"...create some kind of moment of menace or threat." Yup, I've definitely noticed this while driving old cars...the oldest cars I've driven were from the 60s. Operating an old car today, even if it can easily keep up with traffic, like a mid-60s V8 Mustang, seems to really enrage some people. I could understand if I were driving a Model T on the NJ Turnpike, but I had one guy lose his mind when he saw me driving a 1965 Ford Falcon V8. I was in right lane of a two lane road, doing the speed limit (45 mph) and was not in his way at all.
That's sad. Seeing a classic car being driven always makes me smile. When I drive mine, like most owners, I drive it with self respect, safety and appreciation. Never to be a nuisance on the road. People have become more entitled cruel especially on freeways. Sometimes it makes me take a longer route to avoid hot heads.
@@solemandd67 Go back and read my original post. I wasn't in this guy's way. I didn't cut him off, I wasn't blocking his way. He saw me driving an old car and then got in front of me and repeatedly brake checked me. As far as I can tell he targeted me for no other reason than I was driving an old car.
Very nice. I can't believe how early this transmission shifts up. My Dad built a plastic model kit of the 1962 F-85 from Jo-Han. I inherited it and that's what made me click on this video. Greetings from Canada.
These cars also used a two-piece driveshaft with a double Cardan joint in the center, which helped keep the tunnel smaller. Somewhere I have one of the little brochures like the one featured in the video. It was inside a Popular Mechanics magazine that I bought at a used book shop when I was a kid (50+ years ago). I can re seeing these cars when I was a kid in the ‘60s (who could forget that dash?), but these disappeared quickly, headed to an early demise, thanks to the Slim Jim.
I own a ‘63 Pontiac Grand Prix with the 389 Tri-Power. It had the Slim Jim. The thing was always dripping trans oil. Even after a rebuild. I finally ditched the Roto and installed the 200r4. The best mod I have ever done. 70 MPH at 1950 RPM.
I owned a '61 F85 for 7 years (until '68) and drove it 70k miles. Loved it and no significant issues, except for the aluminum radiator, which needed cleaning several times.
You may appreciate I know a very clever and innovative car buff who figured out how to adapt a GM Turbohydramatic 350 to this aluminum 215 V8 used in the small Olds, Pontiac and Buick in the early 1960s. This is a huge imrovement over the auto trans used from the factory in the early 1960s. This same buff installed the electronic ignition distributor from a Buick 350 V8 into this 215 V8. Additionally he determined the crank from a Buick 300 cu in would bring this 215 V8 up to 262 cu in. The HEI ignition had the coil in center of distributor.
The 1-2 shift kinda reminds me of the TH125 in my 1982 Citation X-11. The H.O. V6 is so torquey, if you are laying on it, the 1-2 shift is very apparent and the torque steer will grab the wheel if you are not expecting it. The 2-3 shift is always imperceptable unless you are at wide open throttle. Never been an 1960's Oldsmobile fan, but this F85 has really sharp styling.
We had a '62 Pontiac Catalina with a 389 2V and a Slim Jim tranny. I don't remember ever having any problems with it. We lived in Colorado and my father was a mechanic. He didn't brag about it, but it was trouble free for over 8 years.
I loved my sister's new 1961 f-85 4 door. Transmission was manual in the column. You could take the key out of the ignition while you were driving. Her's was a deep garnet mist.
In the 80s, I bought a restored 1963 Oldsmobile F-85 Cutlass with the 215 aluminum V8 and yep, a roto-hydramatic. I bought the F-85 because of the low price at the time, and the impressive restoration job, both inside and out. It was a beautiful off-white color with a tan vinyl interior, bucket seats. The car looked new and turned eyes everywhere it went, even with the awkward '63 one year only body style that transitioned these cars from compact to mid-size.The 215 V8 was a miracle, silent, smooth, and fairly powerful, that started instantaneously in any sort of weather with just the slightest touch of the starter, and never leaked nor burned a drop of oil. But then there was the transmission. I don't remember exactly, but it wasn't shifting very well at all the day after I bought it, and clearly needed to be rebuilt. I remember being turned down by a series of something like 5 or 6 transmission rebuild shops, who laughed me off the phone the minute they heard the words "slim jim". Finally, I brought it back to the seller, who actually tricked a local transmission shop into rebuilding it against their will by not disclosing which transmission my car actually had until it was too late. After it was rebuilt, the transmission still never worked very well, but the car was at least drivable. The thing I remember most is that the torque converter frequently failed to unlock when coming to a stop, stalling the engine every time like a novice manual transmission driver who forgets to disengage the clutch. After around a year I had to regretfully sell the car because it just really wasn't drivable. I wonder where it is now ...
I owned an F85 wagon in the 80s but it was bigger, more like a Cutlass since it was a '67. Great car! Took me coast to coast in 1979 and up and down the Pacific coast with no trouble save for an axle and wheel sliding out about 3 or 4 feet to one side. That was interesting.
Horrible transmission. It died on my grandfather's great '62 Dynamic 88. This f-85 is very nice looking car. It's a shame GM had to screw-up the trans.
I love small wagons and these are great ones. I have seen many of these over the years, a grade school classmate of mine's family had the Olds version. They got rid of it in 1968 and replaced it with a very nice blue Chrysler Newport. I'm sure their fuel bill went up pretty dramatically after that.
I liked the way they shifted & didn't know of my friends having tranny trouble nor did I with my '62 Olds 88. That was when the 409 engine came out in Chevys and they blew up right and left! In 65 Chevy came out with the 396 which was an awesome engine.
I used to daily a 62 Super 88 (about ten years ago), and while I loved the car, the trans was indeed trash. I understand they could be built up and tuned right to perform ok, but my unit wasn't close to being in top shape - I did love the PNDSLR shift pattern though, and the high compression 394 was a pretty cool mill. Love all of your videos! Thanks!
Always been obsessed with these various GM transmissions. As I recall Olds and Pontiac used S instead of 2. Cadillac had drive with 2 positions. On the 1964 and newer the right position was equivalent of 2. On the older ones the right position locked out 4th gear. I never drove or even saw the original hydramatic.
Everything about this car and transmission is great. Much better than the new CVT junk they sell nowadays. Also much better than any single clutch automated manual. I like the slushy torque converter feel of the shifts. This is what I miss in newer cars.
When I was young & dumb I had one of these behind a 215 Buick, shoehorned into a MGB. Tire spin on every 1-2 shift,whether you wanted it or not. Eventually twisted the poor car to point I just welded the doors shut. I miss it.
In the last video you guys were commenting on the "T" logo , Oldsmobile used the Rocket logo for years and you can see it on the engine brochure flying across. I'm quite impressed with the exhaust manifolds..they look like little hedders. I had a rotomatic slim jim in my 64 Grand Prix, it was the worst part of the car. Keep up the excellent work👍👍👍
There is a running and driving ( but sat a long time ) Olds Fiesta Dynamic 88 394ci , export model, for sale in a shop 5 kilometers from my house here in France, for only 6000€ , and I reaaaaaaally want it. It's all original ( still original air filter box ^^, also has some brackets for some metal oil cans under the hood ) except the exhaust line. So cheap, so rare, sounds so good, looks so good, has a big V8. And I gathered some informations on it, I guess it has a roto hydramatic 375 (Model 10), and it's not that easy to find informations on this transmission, or shops selling parts for them. So thanks for sharing this experience video.
Nice car! I had a 61 Cutlass with the 215 4 barrel engine and the Roto transmission and I put 100k hard miles on it myself. It had over 100k on it when I bought it for $200 back in the 80's. My transmission shifted very well and was not nearly as loud as yours. If you just had yours rebuilt you need to take it back. It's not right. Also mine had a 120 mph speedo and I think I've still got the factory AM radio around somewhere.
Thanks for mentioning the speedo! My father bought a new '62 Cutlass with the 4bbl and 4 on the floor. When I saw the only100MPH speedo on this car I knew it was different from the car I grew up with. Ours was definitely 120mph.
One of my friends in high school father had the 1961 I believe Buick Skylark with the 215 aluminum block V8 and it was a very peppy car and we were hoping to one day put the engine into a Vega or Pinto ..
I had a '64 Olds Jetstar I. If you could find a suitable application, second gear was a lot of fun. That application for me was the coastal mountain roads south of San Francisco 😆. Loved that car! I got very good at swapping junk yard transmissions in and out of it with me on a creeper and the transmission on my chest. The engine (394) was a bit built and between that and me flailing the crap out of it the transmission longevity wasn't too good, but I had a blast!
What a great car, I bet a car like that would go forever is it was a manual shift. Wish you had segment of taking the air cleaner off the carb to see how it cooled the carb, I have never seen a air cleaner like that. Thanks for your time, work and posting......
I had the Roto Hydromatic transmission rebuilt in my '63 Olds 88 coupe, and it functioned fine after that, but it still had the odd shift trait. Some people described it as having a "bumped from behind" kind of feel, and I think that's a fairly accurate description of the sensation. Once you know that's just the way the trans operates, it's not a big deal and you get used to it. On vintage cars that don't get used much or subjected to heavy duty use, such a transmission is probably fine (if in good condition) but if you have ideas of hauling an equally vintage Airstream trailer around with your old car...you may want to rethink your plans.
I had '63 and '64 Grand Prixs with the Model 10 Roto. I was always very gentle with them, and I never had a speck of trouble, and I always liked the sound of the shift. ("The dramatic Hydra-Matic.") Maybe they would have given me trouble if I'd driven them harder, but they were beloved toys.
I had always wondered about the shifting order on a Hydra-Matic quadrant. I heard on a video here on CZcams that was done deliberately to take advantage of the close proximity of Low and Reverse to facilitate rocking the car out of snow, sand or mud. The roads were not as good when the Hydra-Matic was developed so practicality demanded this feature. Also, I have learned that the Hydra-Matic had push-to-start capability. Not too many automatics are capable of this. I do not know if the Slim Jim had this feature.
Any older auto with a rear pump can be push started, but usually around 30ish mph. Likely the same for this one, to get the fluid coupler spinning fast enough to spin the engine you would need to go fairly fast.
I owned a '64 Grand Prix for a couple of years, and I wholeheartedly agree on the operation of the Model 10 "Slim Jim" Roto-Hydramatic. The 1-2 shift with its precipitous RPM drop with the attendant bog and burble , and the RPM rise on the 2-1 downshift, coming to a stop. On mine, the transmission seemed to operate as designed, even with 178,000 miles (I suspect it had been rebuilt at least once). That wasn't the major problem with the car; the rings in the 389 were shot, so it smoked like a chimney. But, the car was only $395, in 1980. If I were to own another one, I'd figure out a way to swap in a four-speed Hydramatic from a Bonneville or Star Chief, or a Turbo 400 (with the switch pitch converter) from a later car.
I’m glad I missed these at the Chevrolet- Cadillac- Oldsmobile dealership I was a mechanic at for 15 years ! I had enough problems in the 70s & 80s ! Good times though -
Just found your channel love it, my kind of thing❤, thumbs up and a big fat 455 Rockette lol subscription!!! Earned !!! Sorry always did like that Kathy Mateo song. Old songs, well that one isn't that old, but, older songs you could really learn cars and did when I was a kid, GTO, Thunderbird, duce coupe, lol lots of cars had lots of songs, or parts of a cars, lol any how, love the classics, be it music and or cars❤! 👍
My former 1962 Skylark two door hardtop was also very soft, but oh so butter smooth. It had the dual path 2 speed transmission. The shift from Low to High was rather abrupt.
Regarding the old shift quadrant, NDLR with or without P was standard. Legend has it the change to PRNDL was because someone got into their new car with an automatic VS the old “three on the tree”. That person, out of habit, pulled the shift lever down First which was, of course, not First but Reverse. Supposedly the driver ran over and killed someone in a parking lot. Don’t know if there is any truth to that story, but it seems reasonable.
Unified shift patterns, like left side shifters on motorcycles are mandated by the feds. I still remember jumping off my Honda onto an old TR6 Triumph and doing some interesting braking and shifting. (I was a motorcycle tech back in the day.) Made life interesting.
I've heard a lot about these. Keeps me from buying a 62 Starfire but I sure LOVE my 60 Bonneville with it's wonderfully performing Hydromatic!! I also enjoy the quick take off of the Powerglides. Would like to try the 41 Cadillac version of the Hydromatic though!!
I have the next generation, a '66 F85, with the venerable GM 2 speed and the unfortunately uncommon 330 ci V8, it's a surprisingly good car for its age that I've daily driven in the past and currently shares a daily role with an 04 Suburban. I've driven many modern cars and I can honestly say it rides better than some of them despite having multiple 60 year old components still in place. Has plenty of pep, and thanks to not being the roto-hydramatic it isn't bad in town. Unfortunately the lack of gears means it DRINKS fuel. Measured my combined fuel economy at a staggering 9 miles per gallon!
I haven't read every single comment that precedes me but so far, I haven't run across the following facts about this transmission; the Rotohydromatic design allowed the car to be push started analogous to a manual transmission car. I had taken auto mechanic college courses at Oakland Community College back in the early 1980s at their Auburn Hills campus (extremely close to the now-extinct Pontiac Silverdome). There was a Rotohydromatic transmission core available to practice tear-down/reassembly on in that class. The trippy design factor on this transmission is that it had what looked like two torque converters; a conventional variation at the front and a smaller one at the rear. The front torque converter was a bolted-together assembly so you could take it apart to thoroughly clean it out during service/rebuild. The rear converter was much smaller and a sealed unit like later torque converters found on Chrysler Torqueflite 727 and 904, Ford C-4, C-6 and FMX and GM TH-200, TH-350, TH-400 and TH-425 transmissions.
You guys really beat this little car up I have a 63 convertible with the four barrel carburetor. I think it’s rated at 195 hp. I drove it regularly in the 80s for about three years. It sits in my garage now with 45,000 original miles on it. I never had any issues with the transmission sure it’s not as smooth as new ones, but it works very well.
I remember building 2 of the station wagon models and you could build it as a station wagon or a pickup truck or like a ranchero I thought that they were a really good looking car the 61 olds that is what I had wish I could find a wagon to day I would put a 265 or a 327 in it and drive it every wear great video thanks for sharing this with us
Hi Adam, My parents gave me a 1961 Olds 98 4dr hardtop, white over skyblue interior whenI was in high school. Thee car burned up 3 transmissions in a very period of time. According to my dad's friend who owned a transmission shop the trans cooler in the radiator was not sufficient to cool the fluid enough to prevent the transmission from burning up. My dad who was in the auto business ignored his friend's advice that he should allow him to add a trans cooler when the trans was replaced. After the 3rd transmission in a few months, we sold the car and I purchased a 1955 Pontiac Starchief 2dr hardtop cream/brown from a friend at college.
Early in my life, I owned three, 1960's Grand Prix; 2 '63's and a '64, all with Slim Jims. The first '63 was inherited from my dad, and dad thought of the gas pedal as an on-off switch. He often utilized that transmission's only positive feature, invariably pulling up to a red light in the right lane of our city's 4-lane Main Street, and with parked cars just a couple hundred feet past the light, it would be a drag race to get around the car on our left. The torque of the GP combined with the Roto's low first gear would shoot us around the left-lane occupant before that awful 1-2 shift. Despite the seeming abuse, that car never had trans problems, nor did my subsequent '63, but I wasn't so lucky with the '64. Finding someone who knew how to rebuild that trans even in a big metro like Dallas was a challenge. I don't know how those transmissions ever lived behind a 421 HO. Despite all the negatives, that transmission had a very mechanical/visceral operation; you always knew what it was doing. For me, it added to the classic Pontiac vibe, despite it's shortcomings.
My sister had a Pontiac Tempest that reverse was out. She could drive forward but when it came to back up she had to have help or park where she could drive forward. It had the 4 cylinder engine in it.
When I was a child in the late 60s-early 70s, my next door neighbor had one. His had a manual transmission, so I didn’t get to experience the bad shifting of the automatic transmission. On weekends he would invite me and my sister to the drive-in movies along with his children. That car was part of the last generation of American cars dominating the landscape in Haiti. The Japanese car invasion would send them packing, until this day. American cars are scarce there.
I learned to drive in a 1962 F-85 that looks just like this. I think it had vacuum windshield wipers, because they would slow down at heavy throttle. Other than the throttle cable sticking once i liked it. I was driving it in the early 70s.
We have a 62 Skylark with the 215, but it has the dual path 2 speed. Though also fairly weak, I love that transmission. It is very smooth and almost feels like a CVT.
Dual Path is one of the weirdest GM transmissions. Two planetary gears in the torque converter, and nothing but clutches in the body of the transmission itself. Tiny oil pan held on with a single bolt in the center.
My grandmother bought on of these new in 61. She had it till the day she passed away in 1980. White with a 215 with like 35,000 miles on it when we sold it in 1980.
I’ve had a few Leyland P76s with the Australian all alloy 4.4 litre version of that engine, that came with a similar deck height to the Buick 340, they came with the Australian Borg-Warner Single Rail 4 speed, which was quite different to the American equilivent (BWSROD). For example other than a narrow lip around the edge it had a totally flat top plate, unlike the older American BW 4 speed SR.
Your shift demonstration ride brings back this memory: years ago I was chatting with a SEPTA bus driver on his lunch break in Philly and he invited me to ride along for a turn. I had time, so off we went. Corner to corner folks getting on and off. I asked about the trans, an allison angle drive job- he said it was just a torque converter that locked up at 50 mph. " Here, I'll show you" and we took off. He had that 6v71Detroit screaming under the back seat, and it was a rough street, everything rattling, windows, doors, everything. Finally, the little detroit suddenly bogged down and a loud screech came from the transmission as the lock-up clutch tried to grab ahold of the engine. He yelled "SEE THERE IT IS!" then slammed on the brakes panic style and dove for the curb. Stopped right at the bus stop sign. Doors open. I turned around and the passengers looked terrified, and two women behind me, who didn't seem to know each other, were clutching each other. Quite a bus ride!
Good lord! I can only imagine what would happen to that bus driver in the times we're living in now. Fired, news footage, law suites, public banishment...
@@discerningmindyep. Crazy times we're living in now. 👎
I has a friend with a 63 Starfire convertable. 394 4 barrel, Roto Hydramatic. Three rebuilds later, he said "as long as I drive it like a grand ma" it's fine. First time I get on it, it's back to the trans shop!
Ouch
Have a 63 Starfire and never been any problem at all. But is important not let morons wrench on them.
Time to upgrade the tranny.
To own a car today with
Problems today you're lucky to have cleaver people are able to get the car fixe
@@olds394Why not, morons designed the thing, according to my old boss, who worked on many of them, lol. I did trans work exclusively for 20 years, got out of it back in '96, and have heard all the stories, but have never seen one.
What Mark said about other drivers is spot on. I hate driving my 62 Lincoln for the exact reasons that he gave. I leave space between me and the car in front in case they stop quickly. 9 times out of 10 some a@@wipe on their cell phone driving their SUV will cut in front of me. This happens in six lane traffic and also on local artery streets. Part of the problem is none of the drivers under 40 years old ever had drivers ed. Get off my lawn! Lol
i think a big part of traffic stems from the issue of suburban sprawl
@@circleinforthecube5170 Yea, that's definitely a talking point you took from idiotic youtubers lmao
Big cause of people who dont know how to drive is technology. The tech in cars these days basically allows people to ignore half the road and get away with it. In my 1992 taurus even people cut in front of me and swerve around and tailgate me all the time (even if im going 80+ on the expressway). They just dont understand that their life and others' are at risk every time they get behind the wheel. Maybe I should become a DMV drivers license tester so I can fail all the people who don't deserve to pass 😂
I have a couple of comments about both the engine and the transmission...
First the engine. At the time when these were still on the road and in wide use, I was working in a Buick dealership full time and in an independent transmission shop nights and weekends. At the Buick dealership, we got quite a number of those V-8s in with leaking head gaskets. In most cases, the leaks were external in that they leaked coolant out of the sides of the head gaskets. Otherwise, the engines were quite reliable, and were not prone to putting rods through the side of the block like the infamous Buick 350 that was used in LeSabre and Skylark cars.
As to the transmission, the biggest defect was really some poor engineering. For first gear, they used an internal fluid coupling instead of a torque converter. This had some pretty poor efficiency, which made for a soft engagement, but a really "slippy" first gear. When they shifted into second, the input shaft was coupled directly into a planetary gearset with full mechanical drive. At this time, for whatever reason, the fluid dumped out of the fluid coupling only to refill for third gear. Somebody must have really sat up nights figuring all of this out! One odd thing was that the input shaft was splined directly into a damper plate on the engine's flywheel, so removing one from the car was like a stick shift with cooler lines. Weird! I tried to repair one of them on my own, and never did get it to work right. I even took it to some of the old school guys for help, and even they couldn't find out what I did wrong. I finally just bought another transmission and ate the job. hope to never see another one of them!
thanks for all the knowledge
Was the 350 known for throwing rods out of the block because of oiling issues or because of the quality of the rods? I owned a Buick 350 and I’ll attest to the block architecture being very strong and very well designed. Never knew they were known for throwing rods out of the blocks but I knew that they had famous oiling issues. Same as the 455.
@@theeoddments960 Probably more for oiling issues. When I worked in a Buick dealership, we would have an average of 2 a week towed in with rods hanging out the sides of the block. It was quite a treat to get one of them to the upstairs shop up the ramp equivalent of a boxed staircase.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH Jim, I think you have answered my current "Buick bewilderment" in your explanation of the very odd - pressure plate looking flexplate bolted to the crank of my fully complete '62 Buick 215 (even the plug wires are still connected) I got for $250. My next issue is I have to figure out a proper flexplate to match to my narrow bellhousing ('91 Camaro V6) t-700r with small converter. Already have the adapter kit eng. to trans. Cheers.
I never noticed much tranny peculiarity going from my '57 Olds 98 Starfire to '62 Olds Jetfire, maybe the turbocharged V8's big torque masked the tight shifts... '62 auto shifted at 4400 RPMs max... valve lifters pumped up by 4600 RPMs when manually shifting it with 50K miles on it... boost pressure on the underside of intake valves prolly contributed to lower RPMs pump up...
Problem I did have with the '62 was the downshift valve started sticking in the valve body preventing being able to push the exhilarator pedal down... bought a '62 Buick special for $100 with 3 speed on the tree manual tranny and swapped that assembly in to replace the auto tranny... plus a floor shifter...
czcams.com/video/Jzw5W1rRMog/video.html
The TH350 auto tranny in my '75 Monte Carlo had imperceptively smooth shifts...
The TH350 and TH400 are variations of the Chrysler TorqueFlite and GM even paid royalties to the same inventor... 200-4R/700R4 and 4L80 were 4th gear added overdrive versions of them...
It sounds like there are some straight cut planetary gears. Lovvve the pod IP. Such a cool car. Makes me sad they weren't more of a success.
Fascinating. Thanks for Showcasing.
I could live with the rough shifts, but the unreliability is such a detriment to an entire generation of otherwise excellent GM cars. There was a 63 Catalina for sale near me recently, absolutely gorgeous, but I don't have the confidence to live with a slim Jim in today's world of difficulty trying to get parts and not pay a ridiculous fortune for them.
Love the brochures! Automobile marketing back in those days is almost as much fun as the cars themselves.
Yup, same here, love the Pontiac and Olds body styles 62-64 but not the transmissions. Manual trans cars of that era are rare also.
If I were to get a car with a slim jim, original or not I'd feel bad for letting it sit due to their questionable reliability, so I'd probably end up trying to find a Jetaway or Powerglide to swap into it, or maybe a 700r4 if they make a BOP bell housing adapter for them.
Rod & Custom years ago mentioned a '63 Pontiac where the owner swapped to a GM overdrive, getting 23 mpg on the highway.
@@mdogg1604 Damn, that's pretty impressive. By OD do you mean something like a 700R4/4L60 where gear 4 is basically your OD, or a manual with OD? If it's getting 23 with an auto that's pretty insane.
It was either the 200 or 700 automatic OD. I think some custom adapter/machining was necessary. I believe the 23 mpg claim. I still get over 25 mpg on the interstate with my '90 Cad DeVille. @@lsswappedcessna
The reason for the harsh 1-2 shift on these, and also the 2-3 in the earlier original 4-speed Hydramatic, is that it has to simultaneously engage and disengage two elements. The 4-speed used two 2-speed gearsets in a row, each providing either direct or reduction, so the 2-3 shift there was one gearset going from direct back into reduction while the other goes into direct. If one goes into reduction before the other goes into direct, 2-3 becomes more like a 2-1-3 and the engine flares up in the middle, while if the other goes into direct first, it becomes a 2-4-3 and briefly bogs down. However, since that transmission used regular clutches and bands, that simultaneous shift could still be somewhat accurately timed. Some modern transmissions do have 2-element shifts just with clutches and bands, and the shifts are electronically timed with a computer, but they still give harsher shifts than ones that have exclusively single-element shifts.
On the Roto, one of the elements being controlled is actually the torque converter which gets emptied and filled with fluid to act as a clutch. In first, it's filled, and then on the 1-2 shift it has to empty and the front clutch apply simultaneously. However, emptying the torque converter of fluid obviously takes a lot longer than releasing a clutch, and therein lies the problem: both the clutch and converter filled gives third gear (direct), and it'll always take longer to empty the converter than apply the front clutch. Furthermore, emptying and filling the converter is dependent on the viscosity (related to temperature) of the fluid, so it's not very consistent. Thus during the 1-2 shift, while the converter is emptying but the front clutch has applied, the transmission is actually in 3, so 1-2 is always like a 1-3-2 shift. This is further harshened by the fact that 2 doesn't involve any transfer of power through a fluid but is a direct mechanical connection from the engine through the gearset to the output. Then the 2-3 shift is very soft since it only has to fill the converter again. Looking at the hydraulic schematics, it seems they did try to soften the 1-2 by slipping the front clutch with a pretty complex system of valves for the timing, but that only leads to higher wear and shorter service life.
The TH400 that replaced it and became a GM standard was and is highly regarded as one of the best in reliability and shift quality; all of its shifts are single-element.
tl;dr: Rotos always shift 1-2 roughly because they have to do two things at the same time or else end up in 3rd briefly, but one of those two things (the converter emptying) will always be slower than the other. Trying to slow the other thing down (the clutch applying) makes it wear out faster.
very nice tutorial...Thank you..
Excellent explanation!
Oh.
Sorry to have to correct you, but that unit in the middle of the transmission is NOT a torque converter. It is a fluid coupling.
A torque converter needs to have a STATOR to direct oil flow. In this case, there is NO STATOR, thus making it a fluid coupling. Just two elements - pump and turbine. No stator.
@@jimgarofalo5479 there''s a stator, but it's not on a one-way clutch like a typical torque converter. It's mounted to the output shaft. Weird design choice, but nonetheless, it still multiplies torque from a standstill so I would consider it a torque converter. Oldsmobile marketed it as the "accel-a-rotor", and you can see at 00:45 in the lower right corner.
There's a disassembly video here on CZcams (just search for it) where at 15:50 you can clearly see the stator being pulled out.
The original Hydramatic and the Controlled Coupling use true 2-element fluid couplings.
All of those sounds of the transmission shifting, the mechanical sounds, make you love these cars from the sixties. Glad to see this model in such great shape.
That V8 was ultimately developed by Leyland Australia into a 4.4 litre version (taller deck for longer stroke) for the P76 sedan in the early 1970s.
That engine eventually got out to 5.2L/318"... later all iron version out to 5.7L/350"...
Neat car. New cars will never compete with the ride of the older American cars. Back when comfort and cruising was prioritized over the rough, tight, sporty feel found in todays cars. Great video.
Adam, thanks again for your 2nd video on the 1961 F-85. During my junior year (1963-1964) in high school, I had a similar 1962 4-door standard F-85 - white with blue interior, auto and factory a/c. Showing off to my buddies, I backed out of a driveway and slammed the gearshift into Drive whilst still rolling backwards. An incredible clunking noise eminating from beneath the floorboards ensued. After much worry, I took it to our only Olds-Cadillac dealer for an inspection. A workorder with the notation "auto needs a rebuild" and a $214 quote shook my little 17-year-old world.
As my part time job as checker at a grocery store earned an incredible $1.15 per hour, I didn't know where to turn. A customer suggested that her auto mechanic husband have a look.
A day later, Ray test drove it, pulled to the side of the road, lifted the hood, asked me to give it a little gas while holding the brake. From beneath the hood, I could see the engine raise up as torque was applied. Long story short, he replaced the engine.mounts and the noises went away. Small shop mechanics are a LOT better than certain dealerships. The only thing that I miss from that little F-85 was the "Ka-WOO" moan from that 2-bbl carb under hard acceleration!
Brochures, literature, and repair manuals are awesome. Please keep inclluding that on occasion.
The station wagon looks much like the Corvair wagon. I wish I still had the 1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon that I used to drive around in the late 1970ʻs. It was a really nice size. My dad had modified the engine (a 1964 Monza engine, base HP 110 but ours put out about 180), put stiffer springs and shocks on it, and it had the 4-speed manual (no PowerGlide, yay!). It was a lot of fun.
That 2-spd PowerGlide GM put in the Corvairs was a "better idea" worthy of Ford... You were lucky to have one with one of the (rare) 4 spd manuals! 🤑
@@nunyabidniz2868I've had 3 early corvairs they were all sticks& reliable.I've heard they were strong as behind v8. With v8 swap they would still hold up
What a great demonstration of the Roto-Hydramatic transmission. A beautiful car indeed. The brochures are a great resource, thanks for sharing.
One of my favorite GM bodies AND a groovy mid century neighborhood!
Listening to the upshift from 1st to 2nd brings back memories of a buddy of mine's 1964 Olds Dynamic 88. Since the car had a 394 cid V8, it moved quite well, but that upshift from 1st to 2nd is unforgettable. Oh, and it had an enormous trunk, ice-cold factory air conditioning, and that dashboard mounted sensor that automatically dimmed the high beams.
I had a '60 Pontiac with the older HydraMatic. It worked without breaking, but its shift from 2nd to 3rd was a big drop in RPm. They were like that.
Auto hibeam... heehee... Where I am it's even easier. Half the drivers don't bother turning them off. The other half have those new lights that blind you anyway... I hate driving at night now.
@@adotintheshark4848 had a few hydramatic Cadillacs 1/2 shift was fast, usually before you cleared intersection 2/3 was big jump 3/4 was close again like 1/2
Good video! I've subscribed. I learned a bit about the Roto-hydramtatic. Never knew there were two versions, never knew the senior compacts used it. However, it was very hard to hear/sense what the transmission was doing thanks to ten minutes of non-stop conversation about how smooth the ride was ! 🙂
Ha. Sorry!
It would have been nice if there WAS LESS TALKING so we could actually hear the shifting......
Adam, every session with Mark is a treat. The F85 drive was a revelation, but then what was GM thinking when it released the rapidly proven to be unreliable Sim-Jim Roto Hydra-Matic to the public?
Not quite sure. I’m surprised it passed durability tests.
Couldn’t have passed anything ! Manual transmission only - for that model !
@denniswilson8013 that makes no sense, the powerglide transmission they used in the rest of the cars was amazing albiet only a 2 speed - racers still use them to this day
@@kellismith4329 FWIU automatic Pontiac Tempests had Powerglide because they were using rear-mounted transmissions so shared them with the Corvair.
It's litterally a grandma transmission because this car was aimed at older buyers, it was also aimed at being an economical option next to the manual transmission something grandmas bu 1961 didn't want. I think it was even cheaper to make than a powerglide two speed. But I would still take that transmission any day over this. My dad and I seen them all the time for sale at swap meets for that reason. Most would take the two speed over this too. But from a marketing perspective to an older person more speeds must mean smoother, superior ride an unfortunately not so much. I would call it one of GM's worst. There might be others one could name, the slim-jim was one of the wost I've seen.
That drive was actually sort of fun, to me! The idiosyncrasies of these ancient classics are really fun. But I'd say that if the Roto-Hydra-matic was paired with a four-cylinder, it might actually stall it! 🤣
After owning and servicing 6, 1964 Oldsmobile, FS models, I opted to swap in a TH400, behind the 394, of my ‘64 98 Coupe. What a major difference it made. Bought my first one, while attending tech college in Lima Ohio, circa 1983. My automatic transmission instructor, had been a GM line tech, when these were new. When asked if I could fix Slim Jim, he told me, “Son, they were junk then and they are junk now”
Thanks for sharing this delightful video. Love the car.
The sound of the transmission brings back memories! I really like the script on the dash of this car. It was also interesting to see that it was not equipped with a radio. And the interior/dash looks as great as the exterior. P.S. They used to measure trunk capacity difrerntly than they do today.
Back in the day the trunk was measured by how many high school kids could squeeze in the trunk for a Drive-In Movie........ lol
I have admired these for over 50 years. Innovation, creative design, beauty.
Especially the Jetfire: czcams.com/video/Jzw5W1rRMog/video.html
I had one of these transmissions in my Australian 1964 EH Holden . I loved it, but they did not last too long, maybe 100,000 miles with the small 6 cylinder engines. I had a Australian Trimatic (turbo hydra 180 to you) fitted in 1988, still in there 35 years later. but a big drop in fuel economy. 24-25 mpg down to 19-20 mpg
What a joy listening to you and Mark take that beautiful car for a drive. Thanks!
I learned to drive on our 1963 Olds Super 88, with the "Ultra High Compression" Rocket V8, and Roto Hydramatic. The drive brought back (bad) memories. My best friend's mother had a 1963 F-85, which she bought used. The transmission failed not more than a year after she bought the car. Her replacement for the F-85 was a 1964 Dynamic 88.... Same boggy transmission, but it didn't crap out. Great to see Marc again!
Nice follow up! Have a good day!
We had a 62 Olds full size wagon and we had it for about 20 years. It was really a wonderful car. We liked the way it shifted. When the car was about 10 years old with about 100k miles, we did need a transmission repair. But again, we loved the way this car shifted and we loved the powerful engine.
Thanks Adam and Mark. That was insightful and enjoyable.
So good to see the drive video of this car. Reminds me of my parents '62 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans. Loved riding in that car, and wish they'd kept it around until I was old enough to drive. Continued thanks for your videos.
My first car was "my father's Oldsmobile"...a '61 F-85 station wagon with the Rockette V-8 and the Roto Hydra-Maric. The engine overheated, and the transmission leaked like a sieve and finally went out on me after a relatively short time. My dad ended up getting me a 1964 Chevelle with a 230 six and a Powerglide! Oddly enough, my dad had a' '63 Star Chief with the four-speed Super Hydra-Matic (which was a tank!)
My 1st car was a Pontiac with this trans. Had it "rebuilt" & still had problems. Only good thing about it, it motivated me to trade it for low mileage '67 Impala convertible.
I remember back in the early 60’s, Dad bought Mom a nice new car after my brother came along. It was a 61 F 86 Sport Wagon, that I remember fondly. There were bucket seats in front and three rows, with enough room for 6 adults, or 5-6 kids and a driver. I’m not sure of the transmission, but I know it had an aluminum V8 w/4 brl dual exhaust, as Dad loved cars. I remember going for ice-cream in sat nights after the softball games, with Dad driving an coaching, plus three wagons full of the team’s players, the other two wagons were a 59 Chevy Impala with a 283, and the other was a 60 Ford Country Squire with a V8 is all I remember. There was this long uphill stretch with two lanes on each side, with a slow speed truck lane on the uphill side making it three lanes. When we all approached the hill we would all start yelling last car to the top PAYS! Well let’s just say Dad never had to pay, but he always did anyway, he was better off that the other two Dads, one of whom was his brother in law, my uncle, in the big Ford. But it was the big Chevy that always came in last, with at least one more kid than the other two! Since then I’ve always loved the sound of the secondaries opening in a 4 brl carb!!
That’s a really nice looking car. It’s a shame that their so rare. I’ve never seen one in the wild. The wagon was very cool. Thanks Adam.
"...create some kind of moment of menace or threat." Yup, I've definitely noticed this while driving old cars...the oldest cars I've driven were from the 60s. Operating an old car today, even if it can easily keep up with traffic, like a mid-60s V8 Mustang, seems to really enrage some people. I could understand if I were driving a Model T on the NJ Turnpike, but I had one guy lose his mind when he saw me driving a 1965 Ford Falcon V8. I was in right lane of a two lane road, doing the speed limit (45 mph) and was not in his way at all.
Some people become dicks when behind wheel, almost like jeckle & hyde
That's sad. Seeing a classic car being driven always makes me smile. When I drive mine, like most owners, I drive it with self respect, safety and appreciation. Never to be a nuisance on the road. People have become more entitled cruel especially on freeways. Sometimes it makes me take a longer route to avoid hot heads.
@@solemandd67 Go back and read my original post. I wasn't in this guy's way. I didn't cut him off, I wasn't blocking his way. He saw me driving an old car and then got in front of me and repeatedly brake checked me. As far as I can tell he targeted me for no other reason than I was driving an old car.
@@MrSloika jealous people try to damage something they don't have without reason
Now that was fun…love to hear that the F-85 was such a smooth ride…and the brochures were icing on cake.
Very nice. I can't believe how early this transmission shifts up. My Dad built a plastic model kit of the 1962 F-85 from Jo-Han. I inherited it and that's what made me click on this video. Greetings from Canada.
Adam! I just learned that you and I are now colleagues! Congratulations, on your new role, I hope you have much success.
LOL, I thought the fly was on my monitor. Thank you for shoeing it away for me.
These cars also used a two-piece driveshaft with a double Cardan joint in the center, which helped keep the tunnel smaller. Somewhere I have one of the little brochures like the one featured in the video. It was inside a Popular Mechanics magazine that I bought at a used book shop when I was a kid (50+ years ago).
I can re seeing these cars when I was a kid in the ‘60s (who could forget that dash?), but these disappeared quickly, headed to an early demise, thanks to the Slim Jim.
I own a ‘63 Pontiac Grand Prix with the 389 Tri-Power. It had the Slim Jim. The thing was always dripping trans oil. Even after a rebuild. I finally ditched the Roto and installed the 200r4. The best mod I have ever done. 70 MPH at 1950 RPM.
I owned a '61 F85 for 7 years (until '68) and drove it 70k miles. Loved it and no significant issues, except for the aluminum radiator, which needed cleaning several times.
You may appreciate I know a very clever and innovative car buff who figured out how to adapt a GM Turbohydramatic 350 to this aluminum 215 V8 used in the small Olds, Pontiac and Buick in the early 1960s. This is a huge imrovement over the auto trans used from the factory in the early 1960s. This same buff installed the electronic ignition distributor from a Buick 350 V8 into this 215 V8. Additionally he determined the crank from a Buick 300 cu in would bring this 215 V8 up to 262 cu in. The HEI ignition had the coil in center of distributor.
The 1-2 shift kinda reminds me of the TH125 in my 1982 Citation X-11. The H.O. V6 is so torquey, if you are laying on it, the 1-2 shift is very apparent and the torque steer will grab the wheel if you are not expecting it. The 2-3 shift is always imperceptable unless you are at wide open throttle.
Never been an 1960's Oldsmobile fan, but this F85 has really sharp styling.
We had a '62 Pontiac Catalina with a 389 2V and a Slim Jim tranny. I don't remember ever having any problems with it. We lived in Colorado and my father was a mechanic. He didn't brag about it, but it was trouble free for over 8 years.
Lovely ride. I like the standalone instrument cluster on top of the dash, and the speaker grill holes on top with no radio. 😃
I loved my sister's new 1961 f-85 4 door. Transmission was manual in the column. You could take the key out of the ignition while you were driving. Her's was a deep garnet mist.
Wow, such a Gr8 Ride, even with the quick automatic shift from 1st to 2nd gear, Marc and Adam.😊🤲
In the 80s, I bought a restored 1963 Oldsmobile F-85 Cutlass with the 215 aluminum V8 and yep, a roto-hydramatic. I bought the F-85 because of the low price at the time, and the impressive restoration job, both inside and out. It was a beautiful off-white color with a tan vinyl interior, bucket seats. The car looked new and turned eyes everywhere it went, even with the awkward '63 one year only body style that transitioned these cars from compact to mid-size.The 215 V8 was a miracle, silent, smooth, and fairly powerful, that started instantaneously in any sort of weather with just the slightest touch of the starter, and never leaked nor burned a drop of oil. But then there was the transmission. I don't remember exactly, but it wasn't shifting very well at all the day after I bought it, and clearly needed to be rebuilt. I remember being turned down by a series of something like 5 or 6 transmission rebuild shops, who laughed me off the phone the minute they heard the words "slim jim". Finally, I brought it back to the seller, who actually tricked a local transmission shop into rebuilding it against their will by not disclosing which transmission my car actually had until it was too late. After it was rebuilt, the transmission still never worked very well, but the car was at least drivable. The thing I remember most is that the torque converter frequently failed to unlock when coming to a stop, stalling the engine every time like a novice manual transmission driver who forgets to disengage the clutch. After around a year I had to regretfully sell the car because it just really wasn't drivable. I wonder where it is now ...
The f85 is an absolute sweetheart. I love that vehicle the way it looks and the way it rides
Though slow and unreliable, I gotta say the small whine sound it makes is pretty cool.
I owned an F85 wagon in the 80s but it was bigger, more like a Cutlass since it was a '67. Great car! Took me coast to coast in 1979 and up and down the Pacific coast with no trouble save for an axle and wheel sliding out about 3 or 4 feet to one side. That was interesting.
Horrible transmission. It died on my grandfather's great '62 Dynamic 88. This f-85 is very nice looking car. It's a shame GM had to screw-up the trans.
Thanks for this, I had questions about the transmission after the last video
I love small wagons and these are great ones. I have seen many of these over the years, a grade school classmate of mine's family had the Olds version. They got rid of it in 1968 and replaced it with a very nice blue Chrysler Newport. I'm sure their fuel bill went up pretty dramatically after that.
These very early '60s GM cars in some way had been ahead of its time. Experienced Pontiac Tempest of this kind around very early 2000s.
I liked the way they shifted & didn't know of my friends having tranny trouble nor did I with my '62 Olds 88. That was when the 409 engine came out in Chevys and they blew up right and left! In 65 Chevy came out with the 396 which was an awesome engine.
I used to daily a 62 Super 88 (about ten years ago), and while I loved the car, the trans was indeed trash. I understand they could be built up and tuned right to perform ok, but my unit wasn't close to being in top shape - I did love the PNDSLR shift pattern though, and the high compression 394 was a pretty cool mill.
Love all of your videos! Thanks!
Always been obsessed with these various GM transmissions. As I recall Olds and Pontiac used S instead of 2. Cadillac had drive with 2 positions. On the 1964 and newer the right position was equivalent of 2. On the older ones the right position locked out 4th gear. I never drove or even saw the original hydramatic.
S=super
@@bobbyheffley4955 I remember asking my father what the 'S' meant on our new 1965 Grand Prix, and he said it meant 'Super'.
Cads from 59 /63 had em, then got turbo 400
Everything about this car and transmission is great. Much better than the new CVT junk they sell nowadays. Also much better than any single clutch automated manual. I like the slushy torque converter feel of the shifts. This is what I miss in newer cars.
Looking at the suspension coil spring placement surely has helped with that soft ride.
Not geometry, just spring rate (thinner coil wires, more windings).
When I was young & dumb I had one of these behind a 215 Buick, shoehorned into a MGB. Tire spin on every 1-2 shift,whether you wanted it or not. Eventually twisted the poor car to point I just welded the doors shut. I miss it.
In the last video you guys were commenting on the "T" logo , Oldsmobile used the Rocket logo for years and you can see it on the engine brochure flying across. I'm quite impressed with the exhaust manifolds..they look like little hedders. I had a rotomatic slim jim in my 64 Grand Prix, it was the worst part of the car. Keep up the excellent work👍👍👍
"Headers", @1cargaragenyc.. They're spelled 'headers'.. fyi
There is a running and driving ( but sat a long time ) Olds Fiesta Dynamic 88 394ci , export model, for sale in a shop 5 kilometers from my house here in France, for only 6000€ , and I reaaaaaaally want it. It's all original ( still original air filter box ^^, also has some brackets for some metal oil cans under the hood ) except the exhaust line. So cheap, so rare, sounds so good, looks so good, has a big V8. And I gathered some informations on it, I guess it has a roto hydramatic 375 (Model 10), and it's not that easy to find informations on this transmission, or shops selling parts for them.
So thanks for sharing this experience video.
Nice car! I had a 61 Cutlass with the 215 4 barrel engine and the Roto transmission and I put 100k hard miles on it myself. It had over 100k on it when I bought it for $200 back in the 80's. My transmission shifted very well and was not nearly as loud as yours. If you just had yours rebuilt you need to take it back. It's not right. Also mine had a 120 mph speedo and I think I've still got the factory AM radio around somewhere.
Thanks for mentioning the speedo! My father bought a new '62 Cutlass with the 4bbl and 4 on the floor. When I saw the only100MPH speedo on this car I knew it was different from the car I grew up with. Ours was definitely 120mph.
1:07 also formed the basis of the Repco-Brabham 620 Formula 1 engine, which employed an extensively modified version of the F85's block casting.
One of my friends in high school father had the 1961 I believe Buick Skylark with the 215 aluminum block V8 and it was a very peppy car and we were hoping to one day put the engine into a Vega or Pinto ..
Wave a 215 in my vega now. no heavier than vega 4. Stock springs work well
I had a '64 Olds Jetstar I. If you could find a suitable application, second gear was a lot of fun. That application for me was the coastal mountain roads south of San Francisco 😆. Loved that car! I got very good at swapping junk yard transmissions in and out of it with me on a creeper and the transmission on my chest. The engine (394) was a bit built and between that and me flailing the crap out of it the transmission longevity wasn't too good, but I had a blast!
What a great car, I bet a car like that would go forever is it was a manual shift. Wish you had segment of taking the air cleaner off the carb to see how it cooled the carb, I have never seen a air cleaner like that. Thanks for your time, work and posting......
I had the Roto Hydromatic transmission rebuilt in my '63 Olds 88 coupe, and it functioned fine after that, but it still had the odd shift trait. Some people described it as having a "bumped from behind" kind of feel, and I think that's a fairly accurate description of the sensation. Once you know that's just the way the trans operates, it's not a big deal and you get used to it. On vintage cars that don't get used much or subjected to heavy duty use, such a transmission is probably fine (if in good condition) but if you have ideas of hauling an equally vintage Airstream trailer around with your old car...you may want to rethink your plans.
I had '63 and '64 Grand Prixs with the Model 10 Roto. I was always very gentle with them, and I never had a speck of trouble, and I always liked the sound of the shift. ("The dramatic Hydra-Matic.") Maybe they would have given me trouble if I'd driven them harder, but they were beloved toys.
Love that dashboard! ✅
I had always wondered about the shifting order on a Hydra-Matic quadrant. I heard on a video here on CZcams that was done deliberately to take advantage of the close proximity of Low and Reverse to facilitate rocking the car out of snow, sand or mud. The roads were not as good when the Hydra-Matic was developed so practicality demanded this feature. Also, I have learned that the Hydra-Matic had push-to-start capability. Not too many automatics are capable of this. I do not know if the Slim Jim had this feature.
Any older auto with a rear pump can be push started, but usually around 30ish mph. Likely the same for this one, to get the fluid coupler spinning fast enough to spin the engine you would need to go fairly fast.
I owned a '64 Grand Prix for a couple of years, and I wholeheartedly agree on the operation of the Model 10 "Slim Jim" Roto-Hydramatic. The 1-2 shift with its precipitous RPM drop with the attendant bog and burble , and the RPM rise on the 2-1 downshift, coming to a stop. On mine, the transmission seemed to operate as designed, even with 178,000 miles (I suspect it had been rebuilt at least once). That wasn't the major problem with the car; the rings in the 389 were shot, so it smoked like a chimney. But, the car was only $395, in 1980.
If I were to own another one, I'd figure out a way to swap in a four-speed Hydramatic from a Bonneville or Star Chief, or a Turbo 400 (with the switch pitch converter) from a later car.
I’m glad I missed these at the Chevrolet- Cadillac- Oldsmobile dealership I was a mechanic at for
15 years ! I had enough problems in the 70s & 80s ! Good times though -
Just found your channel love it, my kind of thing❤, thumbs up and a big fat 455 Rockette lol subscription!!! Earned !!! Sorry always did like that Kathy Mateo song. Old songs, well that one isn't that old, but, older songs you could really learn cars and did when I was a kid, GTO, Thunderbird, duce coupe, lol lots of cars had lots of songs, or parts of a cars, lol any how, love the classics, be it music and or cars❤! 👍
In 85 I bought a 63 Chevy Nova SS convertible with a 194 6 inline and a powerglide 2 speed automatic. The powergilde was a pretty good trany.
Thank you Adam and Mark for showcasing how a Roto Hydromatic drives. That 1-2 is odd but it foreshadowed how the TH200-C had a similar feel.
That trans just shifts firmly…at least in my experience
My former 1962 Skylark two door hardtop was also very soft, but oh so butter smooth. It had the dual path 2 speed transmission. The shift from Low to High was rather abrupt.
Regarding the old shift quadrant, NDLR with or without P was standard. Legend has it the change to PRNDL was because someone got into their new car with an automatic VS the old “three on the tree”. That person, out of habit, pulled the shift lever down First which was, of course, not First but Reverse. Supposedly the driver ran over and killed someone in a parking lot. Don’t know if there is any truth to that story, but it seems reasonable.
Unified shift patterns, like left side shifters on motorcycles are mandated by the feds. I still remember jumping off my Honda onto an old TR6 Triumph and doing some interesting braking and shifting. (I was a motorcycle tech back in the day.) Made life interesting.
What a beautiful car. Seems like a nice, soft ride as well.
Well, I watched the Video to get more precise information about the roto hydramatic, but that was missing.
But great video about a great car. 👍👌
A gentleman on Eluethra owns 1 of these.1961 red with white vinyl interior.
I've heard a lot about these. Keeps me from buying a 62 Starfire but I sure LOVE my 60 Bonneville with it's wonderfully performing Hydromatic!! I also enjoy the quick take off of the Powerglides. Would like to try the 41 Cadillac version of the Hydromatic though!!
the fantastic, dramatic, dynamic, roto-hydra-matic
I have the next generation, a '66 F85, with the venerable GM 2 speed and the unfortunately uncommon 330 ci V8, it's a surprisingly good car for its age that I've daily driven in the past and currently shares a daily role with an 04 Suburban.
I've driven many modern cars and I can honestly say it rides better than some of them despite having multiple 60 year old components still in place. Has plenty of pep, and thanks to not being the roto-hydramatic it isn't bad in town.
Unfortunately the lack of gears means it DRINKS fuel. Measured my combined fuel economy at a staggering 9 miles per gallon!
I haven't read every single comment that precedes me but so far, I haven't run across the following facts about this transmission; the Rotohydromatic design allowed the car to be push started analogous to a manual transmission car. I had taken auto mechanic college courses at Oakland Community College back in the early 1980s at their Auburn Hills campus (extremely close to the now-extinct Pontiac Silverdome). There was a Rotohydromatic transmission core available to practice tear-down/reassembly on in that class. The trippy design factor on this transmission is that it had what looked like two torque converters; a conventional variation at the front and a smaller one at the rear. The front torque converter was a bolted-together assembly so you could take it apart to thoroughly clean it out during service/rebuild. The rear converter was much smaller and a sealed unit like later torque converters found on Chrysler Torqueflite 727 and 904, Ford C-4, C-6 and FMX and GM TH-200, TH-350, TH-400 and TH-425 transmissions.
You guys really beat this little car up I have a 63 convertible with the four barrel carburetor. I think it’s rated at 195 hp. I drove it regularly in the 80s for about three years. It sits in my garage now with 45,000 original miles on it. I never had any issues with the transmission sure it’s not as smooth as new ones, but it works very well.
I remember building 2 of the station wagon models and you could build it as a station wagon or a pickup truck or like a ranchero I thought that they were a really good looking car the 61 olds that is what I had wish I could find a wagon to day I would put a 265 or a 327 in it and drive it every wear great video thanks for sharing this with us
Nice neighborhood!
Hi Adam, My parents gave me a 1961 Olds 98 4dr hardtop, white over skyblue interior whenI was in high school. Thee car burned up 3 transmissions in a very period of time. According to my dad's friend who owned a transmission shop the trans cooler in the radiator was not sufficient to cool the fluid enough to prevent the transmission from burning up. My dad who was in the auto business ignored his friend's advice that he should allow him to add a trans cooler when the trans was replaced. After the 3rd transmission in a few months, we sold the car and I purchased a 1955 Pontiac Starchief 2dr hardtop cream/brown from a friend at college.
Early in my life, I owned three, 1960's Grand Prix; 2 '63's and a '64, all with Slim Jims. The first '63 was inherited from my dad, and dad thought of the gas pedal as an on-off switch. He often utilized that transmission's only positive feature, invariably pulling up to a red light in the right lane of our city's 4-lane Main Street, and with parked cars just a couple hundred feet past the light, it would be a drag race to get around the car on our left. The torque of the GP combined with the Roto's low first gear would shoot us around the left-lane occupant before that awful 1-2 shift. Despite the seeming abuse, that car never had trans problems, nor did my subsequent '63, but I wasn't so lucky with the '64. Finding someone who knew how to rebuild that trans even in a big metro like Dallas was a challenge. I don't know how those transmissions ever lived behind a 421 HO. Despite all the negatives, that transmission had a very mechanical/visceral operation; you always knew what it was doing. For me, it added to the classic Pontiac vibe, despite it's shortcomings.
My sister had a Pontiac Tempest that reverse was out. She could drive forward but when it came to back up she had to have help or park where she could drive forward. It had the 4 cylinder engine in it.
When I was a child in the late 60s-early 70s, my next door neighbor had one. His had a manual transmission, so I didn’t get to experience the bad shifting of the automatic transmission. On weekends he would invite me and my sister to the drive-in movies along with his children. That car was part of the last generation of American cars dominating the landscape in Haiti. The Japanese car invasion would send them packing, until this day. American cars are scarce there.
I learned to drive in a 1962 F-85 that looks just like this. I think it had vacuum windshield wipers, because they would slow down at heavy throttle. Other than the throttle cable sticking once i liked it. I was driving it in the early 70s.
We have a 62 Skylark with the 215, but it has the dual path 2 speed. Though also fairly weak, I love that transmission. It is very smooth and almost feels like a CVT.
Dual Path is one of the weirdest GM transmissions. Two planetary gears in the torque converter, and nothing but clutches in the body of the transmission itself. Tiny oil pan held on with a single bolt in the center.
Former Hydra-Magic Engineer here... thanks for the great video!
I need you to help me on my F85 getting the linkages to make the hydra shift at the right points 😂😂
My grandmother bought on of these new in 61. She had it till the day she passed away in 1980. White with a 215 with like 35,000 miles on it when we sold it in 1980.
So much "Action!" in that power train.
I’ve had a few Leyland P76s with the Australian all alloy 4.4 litre version of that engine, that came with a similar deck height to the Buick 340, they came with the Australian Borg-Warner Single Rail 4 speed, which was quite different to the American equilivent (BWSROD). For example other than a narrow lip around the edge it had a totally flat top plate, unlike the older American BW 4 speed SR.