Ledger Recover: What The Hell is Happening? With aantonop and lopp.
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- Recently, Ledger, the hardware wallet company, rolled out a new key recovery service called Ledger Recover. The community has a lot of questions about this service and has been asking Andreas for his take on the situation. In this livestream, Andreas and Jameson Lopp discussed the issue. As a reminder, all of these statements are opinion only based upon current knowledge.
Follow Jameson at / @jamesonlopp
While Andreas has moved his monthly Q&A's to informal, patron-only sessions, this topic has had such broad impact and he's been asked so many times to weigh in that he's agreed to do a topic focused livestream on CZcams for everyone. If you'd like to learn more about Andreas current work, visit his patreon at / aantonop
Here's the usual description:
Looking for an entertaining, trustworthy, unbiased opinion on bitcoin and open blockchains? This is it. During this livestream Andreas will answer questions about bitcoin and open blockchains, like Ethereum and the lightning network. Andreas never talks investment but if you want to learn about the technology then don't miss this event.
BECOME a Patreon Community Builder: / aantonop
JOIN this CZcams channel: aantonop.io/yo...
LEARN from Andreas in one of his popular Workshops which will teach you practical crypto skills. There’s even a FREE Intro to Bitcoin & Open Blockchains to get you started. aantonop.io/ta...
You can also learn from one of aantonop's many books. Andreas has written three technical books for developers about blockchain technology, Mastering Bitcoin, Mastering Ethereum, and Mastering the Lightning Network (2021) published by O’Reilly Media. He’s also written The Internet of Money Series books, which explain why bitcoin, ethereum, and open blockchains matter. Learn more at aantonop.com
#Bitcoin #BitcoinEducation #BitcoinQ&A
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It is such a delight to see you, Andreas!!
I really appreciate the fact that you recognized the communities concerns and immediately made a reaction video. Thank you for your time Andres.
Mr. Andres is an exceptionally outstanding individual whose expertise and insights are tremendously valuable to the development of the cryptocurrency field. I admire his profound understanding of technology and contributions to the community. His video content is authentic, informative, and helps us gain a better understanding and mastery of cryptocurrency knowledge.
Can always rely on Anton. My first Bitcoin influencer. Thank you!
Ledger should have created a new device Ledger Z and that has the firmware installed that optionally can do the recovery feature. Leave the existing ledger devices alone without any additional optional recovery feature in.
Ledger should share this stream. Andreas and Jameson have done a great job explaining the details. Now I have a clear understanding of the situation. Thank you guys!
Andreas is working overtime volunteering for Ledger.
Why would they share it? He recommends moving away from Ledger if you have meaningful money on there
What if we don't upgrade our ledger firmware or apps? Will we be safe?
Two of the greatest minds in Bitcoin. Thank you for doing this guys !
Your analysis summary was exactly mine - yet so many other youtube channels not discussing this - Ledger is REMOVING the decentralization aspect of Bitcoin, which one of the biggest reasons you want to be in Bitcoin. It's amazingly insane how easily our society want to default back to the comfort of making responsibility someone elses problem. The mental gymnastics Ledger play to justify this crap is both humorous and disturbing.
Totally agree
Yea, it’s like turning bitcoin holders into something like how the banking system works… the government just makes a phone call and BOOM, your money is confiscated… some of the new people don’t actually understand how bitcoin is different from the fiat system so they probably are fine with “ledger recover.”
I am really glad I listened to the whole interview. There is a old Roman Maxim that says " Let those who can be fooled, be fooled. Fools will trust their private keys to learn why it was a mistake to do so. Thank you aanonop as I have watched your videos for the past 8 + years and have learned a great deal of knowledge as a result of you sharing. Sending you waves of love and appreciation.
I was waiting for this confirmation. Thank you Andrea. I will be switching to a new device asap. Ledger is having a Bud Light moment…
The stupidity of your statement is astounding.
I think BTC needs Andreas now more than ever. TY Andreas
Thank you Andreas. Long time listener. I have always enjoyed the information and analysis you bring to the community.
$5,000 tip? wow.
@@thinkblue8089 Haha i should clarify, those are Mexican Pesos (MX), so around 300 USD.
Wow! Thanks so much for your generous Super Thanks. I do my best to provide high-quality, honest, and unbiased analysis. It's nice to hear that you appreciate my work. Best to you and yours.
Whoa thank YOU for supporting Andreas on our behalf.
@@JustADeadName amazing non the less. You’re a good man
Thanks Andreas! I actually came to your channel to look for an explanation to the events of Ledger and wanted to ask you to do a video about it. Cheers for taking your time and sharing your views and opinions
Yeah, what's troubling to me is that the Ledger company now has the technological capability to comply with a subpoena .... a subpoena issued by a judge who is demanding to "see inside" the crypto wallet of a given targeted person; and perhaps also a court order could be issued to Ledger to "freeze" the contents of someone's wallet. The Ledger company has now created for itself the legal obligation to allow politicians to snoop on wallets or to freeze assets; this obligation did not previously exist, because Ledger didn't have the ability to do this previously. At the present time, it's unlikely that a judge would issue a subpoena to Ledger so that he could go pilfering through MY device; but who knows what may happen in the future.
It was already possible to see inside any ledger wallet, since all the cryptos they support run through their app and through their node. So they basically already can find out what you own if they want to, with this new feature there is no need to freeze, they have the keys and can do everything they want with them if subpoenad
@googlesmostwantedfrog147 the other thing that you can't figure out.... because you're too stupid.... is the hacks that might be possible now... with the new technology... that weren't available before... with the prior technology. Try to get a clue.
Top quality content as always. Looking forward to watch your videos back on youtube on regular basis.
Wow, I've reported like 100 scam comments while watching this video 😅
Me too, let's hope it helps
I only do this on channels I care about. Like this one!
I did too. nobody gets hundreds of likes promoting BS
Ty. Its nice to read real comments. :)
Thanks so much for publishing this, wouldn't trust anyone's insight more.
We should be given a full refund from Ledger because this was not part of the agreement/marketing of the original sale.
So basically, don't do firmware update and move to another HW as quick as you possibly can but also while first taking the time to understand how the new HW device functions and operates before making it your main device.
also only move to a manufacturer that exclusively releases open source firmware, unlike ledger
@@putyograsseson 100% ColdCard and Blockstream Jade seem like good options. ColdCard seems like the better out of the 2. Trezor is no longer a good option since they recently partnered up with Wasabi
I am happy to see this topic covered… I personally will now only treat my ledger like a bank account, since governments can freeze them… if you want something that’s truely use, you’re better off holding your keys.
I suspect Ledger know exactly what they're doing. They'll gain more users than lose - people generally like their hands held, and they'll get a pat on the back from Governments. Sad day for self custody, Ledger are dead to me.
Great video. 1:02:22 We really should be pushing the idea of Proof Of Keys Day (or whatever you want to call it) as January 3rd each year. It's such a good idea to review everything to make sure you know what you're doing and have a plan if something terrible happens. Too many people only care when it's too late.
I'm a big fan of owning two hardware wallets. One is my primary. And the other is a dupe I can wipe out and reinstall in order to prove to myself that my seed words are what I've written down, and that my passphrase is 100% correct. It's really important to doublecheck everything. That's what I do every year on January 3rd (January 3rd, because that's the day Bitcoin was launched). Stay safe!
P.S. Eff Ledger. I'll never trust them again.
This ledger incident was good for Bitcoin, we got to see Andreas in public again! 😂
So many scam comments! Blows my mind.
Amazon bot spam are crazy
Excellent stream. Thank you both.
Nice to see you back on CZcams Andreas!!
This is the man to listen 🎧 to and listen good !! ❤
Happy you mention the 5i countries.
Amazing public service. Thank you.
Really great stream! I consider myself fairly competent but there's a LOT of great information in here. Always learning!
Thanks for hosting this, Andreas!
Thanks Andreas, but you guys didn't mention that Coldcard has a security element similar to Ledger's and they are no Open Source, Blockstream Jade which is a bitcoin wallet only is Open source.
Thanks Andreas, you are The Man 👍
Then ledger must give my money back. Because when I bought ledger device, there wasn't any recovery option etc.. My seeds couldn't be taken out..
The fact that it’s an opt-in service should mean that you can selectively add the this feature to the firmware update or not. But forcing it on all devices is a big what and why
Hi. My question is: why do I need to create a fresh new seed if I decided not to upgrade and not to use my ledger device anymore? Is the seed created in the first place on the device not secure? That’s what I really want to know. Thank you.
Stop asking serious questions
Cos your seeds might be compromised in the future .
Jameson said it best: a lot of the outrage was that people have realized key exfiltration is possible. I think this is generally a misunderstanding across the entire space of what the guarentes of these hardware devices actually are. 21:24
A bunch of crypto-reactionaries losing their crap again over misinterpretation and gossip; sometimes this space is very embarrassing.
Glad I went with Trezor when I got into bitcoin.
Thank you guys. One point I’m wondering: why I will need or you‘re recommend a fresh seed with switching to an other device? If the seed is generated by ledger why it is not longer save on a bitbox02 and so on? I can‘t imagine any scenario the seed is not longer save. Thanks
how do Ledger know that the vast majority has less than 50k in their device?
Good question 🤔
Because they have access to your wallet address (which isn’t secret) and they can see the balance on the blockchain.
Hey anyone reading this understands what aantonop said at 19:50? "an identifier must be available to someone". sounds scary!
You are all missing the most important thing tho, to recover the shards and recombine them you need the original pin! Even if not the same device, the pin is unique to the combination of your shard encryption and you id, so even if a gov could link two shard togheter to a o person they ll still need you to give the pin, like it was before this firmware anyway
how hard is it to brute force a pin? Trezor's pin, for example, is only 7 digits long, which is 10,000,000 possible combinations. that's an easy job, even a calculator could brute force that pin
Why would one choose for shamir instead of multisig? Also weird that multisig was not discussed here.
Bottom line is ledger lied about being able to access keys on the device.
Awesome! Miss you lives and new videos. Glad you're back
hi and thank you both for your expertise I have and old nano s device which as stated will not be enabled to run this new service which Ledger is offering the firmware on my s is up to date my
concern is that they will discontinue the firmware updates for the nano s
Thanks Andreas
Excellent video as always and good to see you back! @aantonop what are your thoughts on the Tangem cold wallet?
Where's the Trezor love?? all i hear these days is ledger ledger ledger. i bought a Trezor T for two simple reasons: all open source code and a leading hardware wallet maker. the thing that spooked me with the ledger was the "secure element chip" that is proprietary and controlled by a company that may or may not have my interests at heart. if Trezor goes out of business, my device will still be in business.
oh, and Trezor is currently working on its own open source secure chip.
Is it a good idea to move funds from ledger nano X to ledger nano S ??
This was the education I needed. As Always, thank you!
Hello, what you think about tangem wallet?
Slip-39 doesn't work for existing BIP39s without issues. You would need use SSKR. There are compatibility issues and overall situation with shamir shares suck as it stands.
Why did they not announce their intention 4 weeks before launch to gauge public sentiment before going ahead with it
41:50 I don’t understand how they could release something like this without checking with the likes of you two!
Andreas, excellent, congratulations!
Thank you, Andreas and Jameson. Much appreciated.
Don't trust verify... open source is the way to go. It's what bitcoin and most of crypto is based on. Why change paths?
Can you trust Ledger enough now to use their nodes to send and recieve your Bitcoin? If they launched this, why wouldn't they take the money from big data and bigger brother? Run your Ledger over your own node with any of the wallets Andreas mentioned in the video.
Is there an alternative to ledger?
Great interview guys, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.
04:30 start
Shame on Ledger, give users a choice or I'm leaving
can your seed phrase be hacked or exfiltrated if you don’t sign up for ledger recover? don’t you hav to give the phrase to them? they can’t do it unless u tell them your key?
Your answer is in the question already.🔮
Thank you guys 🙏😀
This was very helpful, thank you very much!
Thanks for sharing this video. So much panic in the space.
Beware of amazon XRM5T coin scam.
Spot on Anton re: Assange. The victim of government war crimes...
Andreas is the Man 🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🦾🤙
Great video and much appreciated, brother
Thanks guys, great perspective and suggestions in general 👍
whats wrong with using a new device with the same seedphrase you used for ledger to access your account. Surely if you havent updated the hardware then the seedphrase is still safe isn't it?
Yea I think if it hasn’t been updated you are good. Also the nano S doesn’t get this new firmware. Only the x. So in theory you could just use a nano s, but the trust factor with ledger making this move might scare people off from that. I have both an X and a S and if and when I change hardware wallets I will most likely use the same phrase and just import it into the new device. As long as it’s bip39 it will import. Plus I’m btc only, so I don’t even need to use ledger with all the btc only wallets out there like the jade and the cold card. Good luck!
Nice conversation, thanks
Always giving great perspective; thanks for this.
That new service should be backed up by some kknd of insurance since you got to pay 10 dollar a month
It shoul be in bitcoin thou cause 50k is not enough and is less value every day
THANK YOU!!!!!!
The legitimate "For the people" OG
omg I was thinking the other day, I wonder what Andreas thinks of all this??
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this!
This video is about 2 weeks old (Bitcoin Miami conference was going on). The Ledger “scandal” was fresh in everyone’s mind and has now more or less played out. But I believe my comment is still relevant.
If nothing else the “panic” was a natural process in a truly free market system. But as Andreas & others have constantly pointed out that self custody is the fundamental element to the entire cryptocurrency economic ecosystem. Personal responsibility & solid security behavior is key (pun intended). It’s what we as seasoned members of this community should be guiding our friends, family, colleagues & clients as we promote specifically decentralized economics & cryptocurrency in general.
Thus, adoption is accelerated by a small degree as confidence in the technology grows.
I’m just sayin..
As an I.T. disaster recovery specialist of over two decades, I fully endorse what Andreas espouses at 50 minutes into the discussion.
Upgrading your security to a multisig regime would address your concerns of having it all on a Ledger device.
Honestly I was hoping Ledger would rethink this step and perhaps there would be new options for the user like choosing whether or not to install any firmware at all with these new "export" features.
Btw why the hell would a high security company like Ledger not open-source the most crucial pieces of code in their product?
Thank you, salient information as ever.
Thanks for this video 🙏
This was awesome. Thank you.
With Adam Back would be cool.
what does it take to develop actual hardware circuit where key operations do not depend on firmware? I guess key gen and sign are few ops that are needed to be like that
I’m no expert whatsoever, but from my extremely limited understanding of cryptography/computer science, this doesn’t seem to be implementable, unfortunately.
Thanks Andréas i am waiting your video
I would like to know if someday the government or the powers that be subpoena those three companies under threat of jail time to turnover all their accounts information. is that possible? I should’ve listened before I asked that question. You just answered it. The answer is yes.
Awesome breakdown.
Serious hackers will target big name wallets... what hacker would bother to spend time attacking my home brew raspberry pi and epoxy solution?
Hi. I had an understanding that we need to generate a new seed with a Shamir capability in order to use it, but cannot apply Shamir on existent seeds. Is this incorrect? Can this recovery feature be implemented on old and already in use seeds?
They say it can not. They say shards are generated on creation of new seed after optin-IN for the Recover svc.
How do multi-signature wallets work in terms of private security? Are those any more secure than just a basic Ledger wallet? Private key any more secure in multi-sig wallet?
Was the new firmware deployed at the announcment?
Why cant any other HW firmware company cant do simillar thing in the future? Why cant trezor do this in 1 tear and do a software update?
Thank you a lot!
can some1 explain me key differences between ledger and coldcard in their operation system etc? thx very much
Hi Andreas - how do you travel with the Steel Capsule? It obviously shows on the airport scan machines, have you ever been asked about it? What if they want to examine this in detail?
Probably puts it in a place where the sun don't shine
@@cybersechs1368 Nice try but it'll show on the body scan 🙂
Not Your Keys Not Your Coins.
Consider a hypothetical scenario where a malevolent government exerts its influence on Ledger to distribute a compromised firmware update. Upon acceptance of this seemingly innocuous upgrade, the updated firmware could potentially extract your seed from the secure element. This seed could be surreptitiously relayed to the hands of this unscrupulous government.
The sobering consequence of this sequence of events is that, with a simple click to update your firmware, you may unwittingly surrender all your cryptocurrency holdings.
@@Randy-BBMM You can design the hardware so even a firmware upgrade can not extract the seed/private keys. I would expect nothing less from a high end hardware wallet. Ideally it should only ever be able to sign transactions you physically approve.
Can you provide a name or link to that fireproof and waterproof container you have? I can't find it online.