The Controversy Over Nuns (Bhikkhuni) in Buddhism
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- čas přidán 21. 03. 2021
- In the past few decades a controversy has arisen over the restarting of nuns' orders in two schools of Buddhism. We will discuss the controversy as it relates to the Theravāda school, and note in passing that a similar controversy exists in Tibetan Buddhism as well. We will look a little at the history involved, at why it has become so controversial, and at how we might approach the problem in the present day.
Thanks to Upayadhi for her kind help in researching this video!
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✅ Videos recommended:
Women in Buddhism - • Women in Buddhism (My earlier video, discussing more of the deep history).
The Buddha’s Forgotten Nuns (2013 documentary about the revival of the bhikkhuni order): • The Buddha's Forgotten...
✅ Vinaya passage mentioned:
suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd10/... Monks of Kosambī quarrel
✅ Other resources, papers, books:
Alliance for Bhikkhunis: www.bhikkhuni.net/
Articles on Bhikkhunis and the controversy: www.bhikkhuni.net/library/
Bhikkhuni FAQ by Bhikkhu Sujato: santifm.org/santipada/2010/bhi...
Bhikkhu Anālayo, “The Legality of Bhikkhunī Ordination”, Journal of Buddhist Ethics (2013). www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hambu...
Bhikkhu Anālayo, “On the Bhikkhunī Ordination Controversy” (2014), www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hambu...
Bhikkhu Anālayo, “The Validity of Bhikkhunī Ordination by Bhikkhus Only, According to the Pāli Vinaya” (2017), www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hambu...
Bhikkhu Anālayo, “The Case for Reviving the Bhikkhunī Order by Single Ordination” (2018), www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hambu...
Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Revival of Bhikkhunī Ordination in the Theravāda Tradition (2009). www.bhikkhuni.net/wp-content/u...
Bhikkhu Bodhi, “Can the Theravada Bhikkhuni Order be Re-established? It Already Has” (2012). www.bhikkhuni.net/wp-content/u...
Leigh Brasington on the Ordination Controversy: www.leighb.com/nuns.htm
Judith Hertog, “The Sakyadhita Movement” (2019). www.lionsroar.com/the-sakyadh...
Susanne Mrozik, “‘We Love Our Nuns’: Affective Dimensions of the Sri Lankan Bhikkhunī Revival”, (2014) blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistet...
Martin Seeger, “The Bhikkhuni-ordination Controversy in Thailand” JIABS (2008).
Bhikkhu Thanissaro, The Question of Bhikkhunī Ordination (2018) www.dhammatalks.org/books/Que...
Mindy Zlotnick and Donna McCarthy, “A History of the Bhikkhuni Order” present.bhikkhuni.net/2600-yea...
discourse.suttacentral.net/t/...
discourse.suttacentral.net/t/...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...
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My sister died and was buried at Amaravati monastery UK in 2004. I was grateful for the help and support of the nuns that attended and spoke with me. Ajahn Sumhedo has encouraged the growing female community but within the Theravada traditional rules on ordination. I am saddened that there has been a falling out with Ajahn Brahm who I also admire greatly. Thanks for discussing the difficulties in your video, Doug.
You’re very welcome Martyn’s Nan. To be fair I’m not sure of the relation between Ajahns Sumedho and Brahm now, so I can’t say if there really was a falling out or not. Perhaps you know more.
Both Ajahns are still friends - though Ajahn Sumedho chose to be decorated for compliance to the Thai Sangha and not the Vinaya, even though he speaks loudly about the Vinaya (guilt?) and Ajahn Brahm did not, Ajahn Brahm chose what is in the Vinaya and not what the Thai Sanga want, he chose the Buddha, Vinaya and humanity. Ajahn Sumedho will have to live with that Kamma - maybe in next life as he'll likely reincarnate as a female in a Buddhist country with overpowering knowing to be a Buddhist Nun, because this is not Arahant is it. Blessings.
There is a bit more to it than that. I know personally as I spent that time in India with him. I will not say what I heard from his lips except hat he had nothing against Bhikkhunis per se, but he knew he wasn’t the person to do so. Please please do not disparage him, as many have done, as you/they do not see the full picture. He is at a very high stage …perhaps doesn’t suffer at all and therefore to speak against him is not good for those who do so. Ajahn Sumedho has done so much for western Buddhism and in the west, we as females cannot necessarily understand everything as we don’t see past lives etc. Wishing you well.
I have been close friends with Bhikkhunis in Thailand that have been "illegally" ordaining women underground for almost two decades, helping women escape dire circumstances and find peace in a community. They are incredible women that have been persecuted. They have rebuilt so many times after being chased out of villages, shot at, had their temples burned down, often with the help of local government. They are elderly now and are currently once again rebuilding after persecution. It breaks my heart. They are wonderful meditation teachers and humanitarians, and have only ever wanted to uplift the lives of other Thai women and girls.
Yes it's very sad, Felicia. I hope over time things improve.
The official Theravada position in this matter is IMO a textbook example of the clinging to rules and rituals that Buddha himself warned against. It's appalling how often religious establishments behave in the exact opposite way to the values they claim to stand for
Yes, it's pretty sad. Though I'm not sure there really is such a thing as an official Theravāda position. I think there are now at least two competing positions within the Theravāda fold.
There is no such thing as an official Theravada position. Each monastery and lineage will express their view and behave accordingly. In Myanmar, some monasteries ordain nuns. Some don't. They are highly de-centralized. No Monastery has power over others. The most they can do is cut off the communication. If the controversy is really huge, then monks will come together and hold a sangha council to decide on the issue. only then the official position is possible. 2000plus years of Buddhism only 6/7 sangha councils were held.
As a bhikkhu living in Southeast Asia I have to keep my head down and not smirk too hard when I come across double standards and viniya rules that we follow that are picked and choosed from out of the whole entirety of the set, this is a very informative video thank you... I hope that the bhukkinis get all the support they need to be recognized as how they want to be seen...!
Me too ... let's hope it gets worked out. 🙏
I remember the controversy that Ajahn Brahm stirred. It was big.
I don't get it. The buddha HIMself made nuns by agreeing. What more do you need to know?
The fact that Buddhists reject each other based on sex and type of Buddhism is just sad. It's non Buddhist imo.
It shows a massive amount of cognitive dissonance. It's an extremely un-dharma thing to do in my opinion.
Yes it’s really sad isn’t it. Thanks for your comment Elise.
They are of the opinion to be born a woman is a low birth and a woman can't realise enlightenment. More like the monks can't control themselves sensually and blame women. Its very, very difficult to believe a word what the monks teach when they are of this opinion. Is there no difference between Catholicism and Buddhist monastically? NO.
@@noonespecial4171 Only in Theravada tradition, Mahayana tradition treat women as equal and ordain women fully. In Zen, a Mahayana school, women has the same opportunity for enlightenment and to be priests as monks. Vietnamese and Korean Zen follows the Vinaya in ordination and ordains women.
The issue basically boils down to the fact that the Buddha said that once the lineage dies out, no one can revive the path. He said this about both monks and nuns. Unfortunately the female path died out. It is silly, but I can see why the idea of the clinging to what was the message of the vinaya.
To me it feels very much like clinging to rights and rituals. When the alternative is having absolutely no nuns, it’s hard to imagine the Buddha not insisting there could be another way.
Yes, I agree Jake.
I am overwhelmed with this video, I was totally unaware of this nuns ordination issue.
I am rather upset by it cos I always thought that in Buddhism there's never arguments over gender.
Like you said....it's an issue of the male gatekeepers, happening in other religions too. It's a long long way for gender equality...
Thanks so much for your video....💝🌻... I need to watch it again...
You’re very welcome Pauline, yes it is pretty shocking on many levels. 🙏
It's a matter of lineage not gender. The schools that exist today are only legally allowed to ordain men. Those that could ordain men and women or just women died out. Asian culture is very much integrated into quite a rigid system of bureaucracy which is a lynch pin of their culture. It is not for western practitioners to impose modern Western values on Asian culture.
@@nigelsheppard625 I don't believe anyone was suggested that?
@@nigelsheppard625 It’s not about Western values. The Buddha ordained women. He was delighted by Khema and his other female disciples. Those who have kept women out of the monastic order, are actually defying the Buddha's wishes. If you were discriminated in this way, you might have a different opinion.
@@nigelsheppard625 Nor is it for you to decide on what or how westerners communicate about their Buddhism. You are in error friend, and would do well to resist your natural urge to defend your wrong position.
Thank you for posting this video Doug!
As a (male) Theravada practitioner, I have been concerned with this issue for a while. I’m slowly reading Rita Gross’ “Buddhism Beyond Gender.”
I knew that Ajāhn Brahm supported bhikkuni ordination, but am pleased to learn that he’s not alone in his support for bhikkuni ordination.
You're very welcome Charlie. Yes, there are a lot of people supporting it, fortunately.
Hi Charlie are you Filipino Buddhist?
I had no idea about this issue, very informative video Doug! I understand the point of view of the legalists and traditionalists, but ultimately I side with the view that a nunhood can and should be reinstated. Dharma does not belong to any one sex. Thank you for posting Doug, peace and love!
You're very welcome Kyle, thanks for the comment!
Ayyy Ajahn Brahm mentioned :D very nice!
Greetings Doug. Having lived through some of the events you describe, the legalistic issues are not so salient any more. There are enough well practicing sanghas taking the progressive approach to vinaya. Since this video was published, on June 23, 2022, the first ceremony to fully ordain women within Tibetan Buddhism in modern times concluded in Bhutan. At the request of the King of Bhutan, His Holiness the Je Khenpo, the spiritual head of Bhutan’s largest Buddhist school, the Drugpa Kagyu, presided over a ceremony to grant bhikshuni vows to 144 women. [Lion's Roar]. My sangha, Dhammadharini, organized some ordinations in 2021 that helped to grow the Bhikkhuni Sangha in Germany. The Alliance for Bhikkhunis is a good place to track the evolution of Theravada Bhikkhuni Sangha world-wide.
Thank you so much for your comment, Ayya Sobhana, that's very nice to hear. And yes, there is a link to the Alliance for Bhikkhunis in the show notes for any who are interested. 🙏
The fact alone that there's a controversy, something that has to be discussed ... sad story! 😕
Yes it’s quite sad really.
Wow! Didn't know about this issue at all. Thanks for the enlightening video as usual.
You're very welcome AJ! 🙏
Doug, this is a very helpful video as I knew parts of this but not the scope you lay out here. The sort of sensus fidelium that is going on between lay people and the bhikkuni sanga is Sri Lanka is important and I was unaware of it. This has been one of your best videos. Thanks for all the work pulling it together.
You're very welcome Matteo. Glad you found it interesting. 🙏
Thank you very much for this video - and for the links too. :)
You’re very welcome Janine!
Thanks for this. I am currently living in Thailand (which is how I came to be introduced to Buddhism) and noticed the lack of nuns. but when I asked a coworker, who I knew was a practicing layperson, about nuns or lack thereof, I quickly got the sense that it wasn't a topic for discussion, and I dropped it. And because of her initial reaction, I never tried to ask her or anyone else again. So I knew there weren't many- or any, depending on who you asked, but not really why.
Yes that's right. It can be a sore topic!
Thank you Mr.Doug!
You are very welcome!
Thank you and love from Malaysia ❤️
Thank you too!
Thank you Doug for explaining this so roundedly and comprehensively. The development of communities such as the one you described in Sri Lanka will eventually enable the development of a Theravada Bhikkhuni Sangha, but this must come with the support of the laity and the strick practice of the individual Bhikkhuni and the Sangha.
Venerable Sumedho set the ball rolling in 1980 by accepting four Anagarikã at Chithurst, who then became Siladhara. But he could not go against what are effectively his employers in the Mahanikaya Sangha in Thailand, that give him legitimacy just by setting up monasteries in the west because these are not his monasteries independent of the Thai Sangha.
Yes I’m not sure of the politics there behind the scenes. Nevertheless it’s a sad situation and let’s hope it’s on the way to getting better.
thank you for this , great help for my essay 🥺
Happy to help!
Well said.
Thanks Terry! 🙏
Doug, do you have a video on this issue of the prajnaparamita that you touched upon here?
I mentioned a bit of it in my past video on the history of the Mahāyāna, but didn't get into it very specifically. czcams.com/video/wi_hqpIu-vk/video.html
Hi Doug, thank you for the video. I just watched Brad Warners video on psychological sideffects of meditation and was wondering if maybe you could also make a video about the potential sideeffects of meditation, historical cases (possibly even in the canon) and how they have been handled historically. I feel like there should be more information about the fact that meditation can also become quite challenging and even terrifying, especially if you're carrying some baggage with you, and that it's not always peaceful and just blissing out on a cushion.
Best regards!
That's right Maximilian, though I personally haven't had experience with that and don't know anyone who has. If I can find good objective data on it I may make a video covering it. I have mentioned it from time to time though.
This was a really good one. Can you do a video on criticisms of Buddhism?
Thanks Nathan! If I got some interesting criticisms I might ...
@@DougsDharma I think one of the main criticisms I get from people that I know is that Buddhism can be nihilistic
@@maddiewadsworth4027 I think the buddha himself argued against nihilism, especially that of moral nihilism. If anything, Buddhism is directly opposed to nihilism because it requires a constant practice of awareness.
Very interesting !
Yes, and let's hope for the best!
I'm just curious if you have visited Southeast Asia. I became a temporary novice monk (as is the custom here for men in Theravadan coutries) at Mahasi in Myanmar. There were as many nuns as there are monks. I also did a retreat in Pa Auk in Myanmar. There were also nuns there. There has always been nuns in Myanmar since we can remember.
I think it's a Thai issue. Different countries have different practices, I think. Not so much as the Vinaya, but just cultural practices.
My understanding is that none of the women in Myanmar are actually *fully ordained* bhikkhuni, rather they are thilashin: laywomen who have taken additional precepts upon themselves and are in a sort of in-between state. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thilashin
I see. I just assumed they were nuns since they were living full-time in the community. They do wear robes as well. They seem to have their own senior nuns as well in charge of the young ones.
In this setup, they still are for all purposes nuns. They have important functions in the community as well, including teaching Dhamma in nearby schools and Sunday schools. Some of them are quite intimidating, to be honest. They're quite influential as well. So, whether they are fully-ordained or just taking extra precepts is not such a big issue. Since they are actually functioning as nuns for all purposes.
@@rmglabog Well it may be a big issue for some of them: there are many roles they are unable to perform since they are not actually bhikkhuni. They cannot be the recipients of donation (a "field of merit") as fully ordained bhikkhus can, and they cannot perform many important ritual functions. There is a very strict difference between monastics and laity; women remain laity in these societies even if they may perform some monastic functions such as teaching.
What could be meant by "ritual functions" since the Buddha taught that belief in rites and rituals are fetters and one of the first to be discarded as Sotapana?
As for donations, it is donated to the community as a whole, not to the Bhikkus per se. Even 8 preceptors are part of the dana.
For me, I wouldn't make a big issue out of it. After all, the important thing is our own cultivation. Anyway, lay people don't even know or care so much about these things. It's a western concept to be legalistic and "by the book". I personally see no difference, at least in the cultural perspective on which this is practiced.
Thank you for mentioning how the Buddha responded to his aunty about the 500 other women wanting the ordination. I went to Sri Lanka in a community of nuns to be trained in jhanas and witnessed how loved they were by the local lay people as well.
You explained it so well. Though the Bhikshuni tradition was very well practiced in all dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainisam) till the 15th century, it is mogul invasion and it's atrocities forceful conversions lead to close the tradition in Hinduism. But Bhikshuni tradition is still alive in Buddhism and Jainism. It's revival is important. 🙏☸️🕉️
Let’s hope the revival continues. 🙏
Thank you sir 👍🙏
Most welcome!
May I know what is the lay Theravada sangha that broke tie with Bhikkhu Thanissaro? This sangha sounds quite perplexing to me.
Which camera, lenses, microphone do you use?
Hello Doug! First of all I want to thank you for all your work you put into your videos. They really do make a difference for a lot of people. I've seen all your videos on spiritual awakening / enlightment, but I still have a few questions for you: What is your personal stance on enlightment? Do you think, enlightment, as pictured by many gurus / spiritual leaders etc, is "real"? What is enlightment for you? Because I get the feeling that a lot of the times, a) people may have different definitions of what enlightment actually is and b) that enlightment is seen as "the holy grale" by many people on a spiritual path in a way that sometimes even seems a bit desperate. I get the feeling that they chase after it as if it were a trophy. And what do you think of said gurus / spiritual leaders? How do you tell that sucha person is earnest and / or legit.
In other words: I am really asking here for your personal opinion. Is absolute enlightment really possible? Do you know what the modern psychology says of this matter?
I don't know of any psychological studies on complete enlightenment. It would be tough to study first of all since it's not really clear who is enlightened and who is not. I did an earlier video on this general topic, about questions I had with it: czcams.com/video/XkJpp7rNBTA/video.html . That said, enlightenment in early Buddhism is the complete eradication of greed, hatred, and ignorance about the Noble Truths.
As far as I understand there are no requirements during Theravada Buddhist ordination that the candidate believes certain things - it doesn't involve a "creed" like in some other religious systems. For me this is a major reason as to why "Mahayana" Bhikkhunis should be considered as proper Bhikkhunis from a Theravada point of view and should thus able to participate in Theravada ordination ceremonies. Their belief in various suttas and doctrines shouldn't matter. As far as I recall this is one of Ajahn Brahm's arguments.
I think this is part of the genius of the Buddha - he would have foreseen the emergence of different views like "Theravada" vs "Mahayana" and wouldn't have wanted them blocking the continued existence of the Sangha.
Yes I would think so as well Eugene, thanks!
While I accept the fact that women also need to enter the Sasana and practice Buddhism full time, we all have the option of practicing it as laymen and laywomen too. There are a lot of men and women in Buddhist text who practiced Buddhism as laymen and laywomen and even attained Arhath and other ascended states as well. It is 100% possible to attain Nirvana as long as you are a human regardless of becoming ordained or not. Isn't it? I personally believe that it should not become a serious problem to women or men and under the great compassion of Lord Buddha we all can find eternal peace regardless of gender or what ever the facts that divide us as humans. As a Buddhist and have been listening to so many dhamma talks over the years that is what I have heard from the most kindest and empathetic monks in Sri Lanka. But this is again my perception.
Thank you for your thoughts, Bhagya. 🙏🙂
Good point.
Thank you.
You're very welcome! 🙏😊
Its interesting to think that Thanissaro Bhikkhu in one way believes in the prophecy about the decline of the sangha. That ordaining women would start the decline of the sangha is something.
To quote him "the Buddha’s prediction in Cv X.1.6-that the founding of the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha would cause the True Dhamma to disappear in 500 years-was actually quite prescient, in that it was approximately 500 years after his death that the Prajñāpāramitā Sūtras first appeared" .
He is wise in many respects but sadly his wisdom evaporates when he talks about the Mahayana tradition.
My personal argument back though is that the Buddha also made clear that without the four communities ( monks, nuns, male householders, female householders ) the Buddhist community would dwindle. This is also part of the prophecy, one that is kind of overlooked. In fact the only reason the Buddha was willing to enter Nirvana and was willing renounce His life force with Mara confronted Him was He said that the four communities have been established ( thus ensuring that the Wheel of Dharma would continue rolling for a long time ). It is also evident from the scripture that the moment He chose to preach and teach, He also was going to establish the nunhood ( just unspecified when ... it is quite possible the Buddha declined Mahaprajapati in the beginning simply because He would have preferred to a later date to start the nunhood ).
It is therefore also evident that despite the fact the Buddha knew the True Dharma would not last long with the nunhood ( halved from 1000 to 500 ), the Buddha was already established in His mind that there will be a nunhood. He probably hedged His bet on the four communities pulling the Dharma through long after the Counterfeit Dharma has risen, but it will require the four communities.
This is my take on it anyway.
@@aiktan2162 I actually agree. But for me the so called prophecy and the 8 garudhammas authenticity are dubious and strange that some postulate that can be said to be of late addition to the canon but added before the pre sectarian era. One argument about the prophecy is that it is the ONLY time that the Buddha gave a prophecy in regards to time. The only one . So yeah I have a lot to say more but I will leave it at that. Thank you :)
It’s interesting that when Buddhism came to China and flourished under the Tang Dynasty where women enjoyed more freedom, ability to own property, ability to be appointed as public servants in the Tang court, Mahayana Buddhism really endorsed the equality of women in Buddhism in China.
Interesting, thanks LV!
The statement is a bit misleading. I have been a Tibetan Buddhist nun in America for 34 years. Ours is the Sangha of Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo in MD at Kunzang Palyul Choling(KPC). We were ordained by HHPenor Rinpoche. The Gelong ordination is not open to nuns. Some nuns in other lineages have taken Gelongma ordination through Chinese lineages on the permission of HHDL.
Good to know, thanks! 🙏
Could you talk about dualism vs. Non dualism in early buddhism? Mahayana is incredibly non-dual but I've seen essays from Bhikkhus like Bikkhu Bodhi criticizing non dualism especially concerning nibbana and samsara. But in the suttas, nibbana seems like a non-dual experience.
I am planning to do a video eventually on non-dualism, but it is a complex and nuanced topic. 🙂
I've admittadly only watched ten minutes in and am commenting now because it's late at night for me and he may have addressed this, but if women have to be trained under other monastic women, how did the first of them come to exist? Could what buddhists did at first to start that lineage of women monastics be done again to revive it?
Yes I dealt with this topic in the video. As for the history of women in Buddhism check out my earlier video: czcams.com/video/864ksDOZwXk/video.html
I began to practice buddhism in my life. One question I have is that how can I let go of all my desires when I have goals to achieve?
Well Buddhism isn’t about letting go of literally all your desires. See: czcams.com/video/VeShNoUXnxw/video.html . See also: czcams.com/video/DF4rdQ7FRFY/video.html
Sir please make one video on why there are different colours of chivar. (monks robes cloths) in India use saffron colour cloth on monk body but in thiland and mynmar use yellow colour...why this difference happened?
Yes , if I can find out anything useful and interesting about it I'll definitely consider it. 🙏
@@DougsDharma okay sir. Thanks
Once i read, that, the buddha said after the ordination of the bhikkunis, that, had he not allowed the bhokkunis the dhamma would have lasted more(can't be entirely sure on logic or memory)
That we'd be so steeped in patriarchy and misogyny that we'd ourselves put an end the to essence of the dhamma
🙏
🙏🙂
I believe the Dalai Lama answered the controversy when he said the Buddha would have accepted the ordination of Nuns & did so with the first ordination of Mahapajapati conducted solely by Monks. Perhaps in the forest tradition it is not practical to have Nuns living in the wilds without the protection of Monks.
Perhaps so, but if so it's not an argument that is being made nowadays. As for the Dalai Lama, yes that's part of what he said, however it was disappointing that he felt unable to make real change within his own sangha.
All groups with any sort of longevity have gatekeepers. And gatekeeping in and of itself isn't evil: It is simply the oldest form of moderation humanity has engaged in.
Well sure FD, gatekeeping isn't necessarily a problem. It just depends on how it's done.
I thought we had buddhist bhikkhunis in Myanmar.I have seen them wearing pink Robes and shaved head.Can they do the ordination ? BTY thanks for the kind talks.
I'm not sure about Myanmar. There are female lay followers who take higher numbers of lay precepts and are considered sort of like nuns in some Buddhist countries, but they aren't literally bhikkhuni. The question is whether and how women can ordain as bhikkhuni.
okey, tnx. I do not know myself either. I belong to a buddhist minority living in Bangladesh.
No matter how you slice it or rationalize it or defend it, not allowing nuns to be ordained as bikkhunis is misogynistic. The Buddha would not be impressed.
Yes I think that's right Sherwin, thanks.
I agree.
Nun ordenation is a matter of time, its happening it will be prevalent... Behaviour of the Sangha is the real issue here... Finding the right balance between the extremes of male dominance and feminist dominance, has never been easy. Each time has to find its center of gravity... May we all avoid our faults in this and other matters and stick to the real practice... With Universal Compassion as our Cardinal directions, in our Heart of wisdom, I pray that we may find the Way beyond all extremes...
Yes Emil, let's hope that wise heads prevail.
There was a time before the first nun
There was a first nun
Therefore a lineage can be created.
No one owns the dharma.
Yes, I think it already has been!
It's a syllogism. It's meant to be as simple as possible. Your comment is a straw man. I never said lineages can be started out of thin air, only that they can be started. I'll leave it to others to determine how, but the question of whether or not it is possible is rhetorical. They can be, because they have been.
Thanks ur sharing infor of bhikkunis, actually i wishing become the nun/bhikkunis ,as wht u say so not all monastery will accept female become the nun/bhikkunis .🙏
Right some monasteries accept them, others don't. It's a bit strange now.
For legalists to argue against ordination of new bhikkunis is a little arrogant and narrow-minded. After the Buddha passed away, it was up to the monks left behind to interpret his teachings and apply them. Not an easy task! But to flatly refuse to ordain females even when suitable remedies are rejected? No. Wouldn’t the best way to move forward be to say in mindfulness and compassion, “The Buddha ordained bhikkunis in his time. Had he known this issue would arise, he would have allowed for a way forward to restart the ordination of female monastics”? Ultimately, it’s up to us. WE have to follow the Dharma. WE have to practice mindfulness and compassion. WE are the sangha today. I cannot see how the Buddha would have opposed the restarting of the ordination of females. Let’s think about this for a moment. If he was here today, would he really have said, “What’s that? There are no more female monastics? Well, then. That’s it. Females may no longer ordain.” Would the Buddha have said that? Thank you for your attention. May all beings attain liberation.
Well said, JAYTC. I agree! 🙏
@10:44 If there are Arhant Bhikkhunis then problem could be solved I guess.
डग महान धर्मराज हैं बौद्ध धर्म दूनीया का सबसे प्राचीन हैं
🙏🙂
Very disappointing to see so much politics in Buddhism today. The Buddha was an advocate of equality and would have wanted females to have the same opportunities.
Yes I think so too Evaan. 🙏
This issue is not about becoming nuns..Women can be ordained under ten precepts . But issue is with higher ordination- upasampada. Because the upasampada can not be created or invented and can not be given by males to female. It was given by Buddha and the lineage came through centuries but it extincted. So beside lord buddha no one is capable in reforming it again..For more clarification the male monks also finds same problem if male upasampada also get extincted. If you Familliar with history in Burma-Thailand-Sri Lanka, they were always reforming their male upasampada once extincted in their lands by the help of other 2 countries. Many times Sinhala monks have reformed upasampada in thailand and many times Burmese and thai monks have reformed upasampada in Sri Lanka as well.
Sadhu sadhu sadhu
🙏
Wow this is a fascinating subject! I didn't realize it was so complicated. Obviously as a progressive person Imma like Bhikkuni's for all. But i think I can understand the legalists and traditionalists conundrum - in that you can't just pick and choose what rules to follow in a Sangha.
Right, but neither should one allow a narrow, legalistic over-reading of the rules to disallow something that is of benefit to everyone.
I'm not particularly against women becoming bhikkunis for any personal reasons, but I have heard much talk about the Buddha wanting this, like it was his inspired decision. In fact, according to the Vinaya, he was very much against it, and rejected his step mother who eventually went to the venerable Ananda, who was also rejected by the Buddha. Afterwhich he did a little truck to get the Buddha to concede. But, it was not without consequences, which the Buddha made very clear, as well as the reasons for those consequences (see Cullavagga, Khandaka 10, Chapter 1). I wonder why this has not been brouht up and discussed...
Much of that is discussed in a prior video: czcams.com/video/864ksDOZwXk/video.html
I made the case that women should be allowed to be ordained in the Theravada lineage, using the same justifications that Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned, on the Theravada subreddit a number of times (even before I knew what he had to say on the issue), and the moderators aggressively sided exclusively with Thanissaro's dissenting opinion on the matter. At one point, individuals on the subreddit siding with this opinion referred to Bhikkhu Bodhi, Analayo, et. al. as "heretics" and the moderators had nothing to say against that. An extremely disheartening situation, and I left the subreddit over it.
Oooh, sorry to hear it NS. 🙏
The argument against female ordination is bogus. The first female monastics were ordained by men because there were no previous female monastics. And on his deathbed, the Buddha urged his disciples not to nitpick the details of the Dhamma, but to preserve what was most important of the teachings. Since he had many brilliant female disciples, whose teaching helped hundreds, perhaps thousands, of lay practitioners, it is pretty obvious the benefits of female ordination outweigh a few petty rules created in a patriarchal society following the Buddha's death. And in fact, it was patriarchy that intentionally snuffed out the original Bhikkuni sangha so that it could not go forward without a challenge to the vinaya (which was written hundreds of years after the Buddha's death and was subject to canonical tampering).
Hatred, greed, delusion. Even the some of the most prominent male monastics of our time (i.e. Thanissaro) are blinded by their delusion when it comes to this issue. Thank goodness there are people out there like Ajahn Brahm, who was brave enough and wise enough to know the Dhamma belongs to those who are devoted to it regardless of gender.
Yes I agree Yibambe. The whole situation is sad and frustrating, but there is hope for the future.
I’m very new to Buddhist philosophy, but isn’t the entire point that we are much more than our physical bodies and shouldn’t become obsessed with arbitrary material ties to it? Being fully defined by my gender identity or even just my sex organs seems like it couldn’t be more antithetical to Buddhism. If we’re gatekeeping according to gender, why not race? Or socioeconomic status? Or hair color? Or attractiveness level? It’s very possible I’m missing something, but this seems like gobbledygook.
Well, maybe in the ultimate case that's right, but all of us have to deal with structures of hierarchy and patriarchy in the real world, at least until we become enlightened. One such structure is the Buddhist sangha, set up by the historical Buddha himself, with all its rules and regulations. So reality is quite a bit messier unfortunately, the First Noble Truth.
Sounds like alot of women in the past lost interest in going that path. 🤔🤷🏾♂️
Well it's not so much that they lost interest, as that they weren't allowed.
@@DougsDharma ok... Hmmm... Why were they not allowed? 🤔
I consider myself a follower of the teachings of the Buddha however the treatment of women in the organizations of Buddhism troubles me. Not only are women not getting ordained easily, they are not in positions of leadership- even worse, sometimes they are viewed negatively because they are the source of male lust, or because they give birth and therefore are inferior since people who are born are in samsara. I don’t agree with these views. Women and men exist together. One does not exist without the other. Neither is inferior to the other. Some say we women must be reborn as a man to attain Buddhahood. Also, I do not understand practices in which male practitioners use a female consort to achieve enlightenment. These are secret practices and I have no idea how the women are selected or if they also become enlightened. It is possible that all this is fine, however it doesn’t fit with modern western conceptions on what is ethical treatment of women. I reserve judgement, but I simply do not understand this and currently I can say I would not want to participate in such an activity. These practices are described as superior and advanced. I hope that by following the basic instructions of Buddha I am not inferior and that I can move to enlightenment. I do care about other people as a whole getting relief from suffering and I understand that I am just one of billions of beings so that I my motivation isn’t for myself alone. I do believe in religious and sexual freedom so I accept that these secret sexual practices might be right for someone else. All that aside, women have a long way to go to be safe and equal in this world including in Buddhist organizations. It is now time to update the situation. After all Buddha did teach impermanence. Things change. Could it be that women have a natural insight into our fundamental interconnectedness through our experience of birth and nursing? Women are not as violent or as involved with war. There are exceptions in this androcentric society however overall it is true. I feel the next stage of Buddhism in society will notice and affirm the qualities of women which are consistent with Buddha’s good qualities. We women can contribute something special to the creation of an enlightened society. I think it is consistent with Buddha’s teaching to view women with respect at a deeper level for the widespread behaviors of care compassion and interconnection that women contribute to our world.
Thanks so much for your thoughts. 🙏
This is ridiculously nonsense. I can't believe all those so called "masters" lamas and monks being part of this discrimination.
Yes, it is very sad.
Men who hate women are in error. Women who hate women are in error. You cannot correct an error be constantly repeating it.
Refusing ordination of others based on the body, is in error. You cannot correct an error be repeating it.
Ajahn Brahamvaso chooses not to repeat the error of refusing Buddhist ordination to women. Ajahn Brahm is fulfilling the dharma in that regard. His lineage owes him now, not the other way around. Ajahn Brahm is on the correct path, so long as he continues rejecting all forms of bigotry, which are all rooted in fear. There is no fear in true compassion, trust, kindness, and devotion. There IS fear in rejection and gate keeping.
Yes indeed Firebird. Thanks. 🙏
What do they do in the case of transgendered people? Why not have gay monks live with the nuns during their ordination, then the nuns will be able to ordain other nuns. No problem. This is what happens when we become stuck in one single time. All religions ultimately have this problem. It usually kills the religion - as is happening in Islam and Christianity nowadays.
🙏😊
There is no way I can believe that those Buddhist specialists are sticking 100% to the original rules and therefore are entitled to call themselves a "monk". Do they live and sleep in the woods? Do they have a permission to build a hut? Do they enjoy internet connections and mobile phones? To hold a strict rule you need a very coherent position, which I do not believe they have.
It could be Marco, I don't know for sure.
why does buddhism go against the law of attraction?
How do you mean?
@@DougsDharma i just see lots of people on buddhism forums and reddit disagree with the law of attraction and i was wondering what your opinion on it is?
@@dotaboy888 Which law is this?
Yes they're allowed but the Buddha was reluctant to ordain women and said the dharma will disappear faster if women are ordained
Well there are concerns about the historicity of such statements in the Pāli. I did an earlier video on women in Buddhism where I discussed some of this: czcams.com/video/864ksDOZwXk/video.html
@@DougsDharma I find it interesting that as soon as something in Buddhism comes into conflict with the modern western secular world view the "historicity of such statements" come into question
@@cookiedestroyer402 This historicity hasn't been pointed out by secular people, but by traditional monastics. So I think you may want to reconsider how you are framing this problem.
@@DougsDharma Its the traditional monastics that agree with the Buddha and keep ordination of women to a minimum. Meanwhile secularists in the west seem to need to push their views of equality onto Buddhism. The irony is that instead of changing your view the fit that of the Buddha's you preform mental gymnastics by calling into question anything that does not conform with your established world view.
Scholars are interested in the historicity of such statements because they already know that Buddha's teachings have been hugely distorted over the last 2400 years. There are distortions even in the Pali Canon. The Therigatha makes it quite clear that the 8 Garudhammas were inserted later. That's why, scholars question the historicity of specific verses or suttas.
Also, western scholars don't necessarily try to push their worldview onto Buddhism. By that, I mean to say that they don't try to distort Buddha's teachings. Some agree with Buddha, others don't. The point is that scholars need to figure out what Buddha must have believed in. That's really what matters and that's what the scholars are after.
Had there not been any contradictions in the Canon, scholars would not have felt the need to find out the Truth. They would have come to the definite conclusion that Buddha did believe in XYZ. As far as women in Buddhism is concerned, that certainly isn't the case. The contradictions make it clear that some texts have been monkeyed with. Doug talked about it in a different video ...
What Bhikkhu Thanissaro said the pranja Paramita is counterfeit dharma??? Omg !!! Then He doesnt understand it at all ! So he said the Mahayana is counterfeit and the Tantrayana too ! So only Theravada is real ! What a blunder !! Even i am a lay person knows the teaching how come he can not see !
Yes it is really quite surprising.
Females have equal right to be nuns , people who stop them are misogynist and are going away from the path taught by the buddha
Yes, it's very unfortunate that this is happening Yash.
@@DougsDharma may the people realise and practice true words of the Buddha
Thank you and love from France ♥️
You’re very welcome Jean-Michel! 🙏
Yes they are alowed. Buddha ordained women. But the gender iqualety isent so good in buddhism. It its prefereble for women nuns to be reborn as a buddhist monk.
Ajah Brahm coverd this whel. Look him Up.
Ask a woman
To quote Ven. Soma from the therigatha
Soma
Spoken by Mara to her
It is hard to get to the place that sages want to reach,
it’s not possible for a woman,
especially not one with only two fingers’ worth of wisdom.
Soma replied
What does being a woman have to do with it?
What counts is that the heart is settled
and that one sees what really is.
What you take as pleasures are not for me,
the mass of mental darkness is split open.
Know this, evil one, you are defeated, you are finished.