The Peak District's New Railway Line - Buxton VLR
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- čas přidán 10. 05. 2024
- Hello and welcome to episode 23 of Buxton Barrow Man my volunteering series!
Today I take a brief look into the proposition of a new railway line and what I'd do instead. Oh and a look at the little Hamlet of Blackwell Mill.
Shot on: GoPro Hero11, DJI Mavic Mini
Music:
Hazy - Expand
• Expand by Hazy - Cinem...
Hazy - Dreamer
• Hazy - Dreamer
The heritage railway group Peak Rail have been lobbying to run from Buxton to Matlock since the 1980s. They already have surveys, feasibility studies, plans to share the route with walkers and cyclists as the whole route was a double track mainline to Manchester. There are nearly 40 years worth of proposals, lists of benefits to the area, all rejected by local councils, walking and cycling groups. On camera they all seem to favour Peak Rail, but when it comes to the vote, they reject. I really don't understand why.
I heard that theres been surveys and plans even a totally different alignment to avoid the trail but unfortunately our local council currently are a little short sighted. On a larger scale I don’t think it seems to get the attention it deserves to push the plan into higher ups and it is a shame really.
perhaps, like a lot of people, the councils don't agree with the claimed benefits
Maybe because it would be a railway, is outside their understanding and they cannot make money out of it?
I don't see how you could get a standard gauge railway through there and still keep the Trail.
@davem7293 It has been done before. The Avon Valley Railway did it in conjunction with Sustrans. If this new venture is to get to Blackwell, then it would have to share the line with walkers and cyclists. The annoying thing is that local taxpayers will be paying for this scheme, whereas if Peak Rail were to do it, then it would be achieved with volunteer labour, preexisting motive power and rolling stock meaning a significantly lower tax burden for the locals.
Extending the trail is definitely the way to go
Buxton IS in the Peak District. It's just not in the National Park
Could you tell me what the difference is because I genuinely don’t know
@@LeockThe Peak District as a concept extends well beyond the boundary’s of the park, the park itself being more of the administrative thing. A lot of the major towns on the outskirts (and Buxton that very much NOT on the outskirts) aren’t within the national park as it’s harder to develop the town. Take for example the area around Matlock, it’s very much surrounded by peaks and Tors to the east but is also not within the national park.
The only sensible option is to fully reopen the railway from Buxton to Matlock & put the trains back on from Manchester to London St Pancras via Derby , think of the revenue this would bring into the area. The only reason HS2 to Manchester is needed is because they shut the 2 main routes down to funel everything down the WCML. The mistakes of closing the MR route through Matlock & the Great Central via Woodhead have come back to bite. the walkers / cyclists need to get real, by putting the trans back on is the path to boosting the local economies.
Since when have walkers and cyclists got real about anything,all they care about is themselves and what they would be losing,I’m a walker myself and frequently walk old railway lines but if the rail route was reopened I would be more than happy to support it and just find other walking routes,these people are just railway haters
@@Jessica-Jones732 They are selfish and don't care about the environment. If they cared they would welcome the railway reopening
I love that part of the country. The trail to Bakewell is a favourite and I've cycled it many many times. It knocks off some evil hills on the A6 and avoids it too, both which are good.
The trail can be very busy in summer as it is draws on surrounding population that can get there easily so I think Buxton would be a convenient centre to link to the trail.
I hadn't thought of how bad it would be to walk the A6, but having seen this video, I wouldn't dare. It needs to be linked with better access to the trail.
The idea of extending the trail along the side of the railway might work if the trackbed is for a double track and the railway is now single track. That way there might be enough room.
I believe that is the case however over years they have slowly realigned sections which might be an issue as they’ve moved the track bed more central. The trail as it stands though is lovely :)
There's more on the VLR concept here. The vehicle runs on easily available freight bogies and has a modular arrangement so that it can be battery, light diesel or, in future, hydrogen. The maintenance facilities and stations are also modular. It is simple and cheap (in rail terms) which is the idea: czcams.com/video/jBcNAjZuQ-k/video.html
The Peak District is not a defined area - but we kind of know where it is anyway. The Peak District National Park does have a boundary
Another possible route to connect Buxton to the Hope Valley and so on to Sheffield would be to use the old Midland line via Chapel en le Frith and then over the viaduct at Chapel Milton to connect with the Hope Valley line. It would involve a new junction at Chapel to join the Midland line and then new track over the viaduct at Chapel Milton. This has the ballast already in place, it just requires the track laying. It may seem a convoluted way, but most of it is on existing track so may work out less costly in the long run. Just a thought, maybe other more knowledgeable would care to comment.
As I’m aware no extra work would be required to make this possible other than a section of track allowing trains at BUX to go right onto the current freight only line. This line continues all the way through Chapel and has direct connections to the Hope valley line. But it’s all about passenger numbers the cost of the units, new signalling and finding space in the freight timetables to run such a service.
Why not to Miller's Dale !? It doesn't make any sense to stop at BlackWell Mill !
That’s just where the current track ends sadly.
The last thing the Monsal trail needs is even more bikes. As a walker you need to be continually on alert to avoid being run down. A footpath between Buxton and Blackwell would be nice. There are various places in the White Peak where a short length of footpath between two existing ones would be useful, you can spot the estates which don't want it to happen.
The VLR concept was to reduce the considerable cost of infrastructure in current light rail systems. Following in house testing, the next step would be tests at a non-critical location. In this case using existing freight lines. The location here would be suitable to prove the concept before incurring further expenditure at an urban location, so it may not just be a mad scheme for a status symbol.
Note that the London Underground carried out trials of automatic train operation on the lightly used Woodford-Hainault shuttle before using on the Victoria Line so to me, it makes sense.
You would have to buy two for redundancy, one could potentially be out of service for months with a fault and in practise you would use one for a few days then switch over to the other while the former received maintenance similar to the two class 139's that operate the 1.3km Stourbridge Town branch line. The pair of 139's have carried 7m people between 2009 and 2023.
Interesting. I certainly thought they should buy two VLRs for this reason however it is the local council who the plan is being pitched towards and I doubt they’d buy two due to cost even given the importance of having another for redundancy reasons.
@@Leock TBH you are looking at around £1.5m each for the trains but the cost of two would not even be a tenth of the cost you would have to spend on the infrastructure. Wouldnt be surprised if the total cost for the scheme wasnt in the £30m to £60m range once it had been fully costed.
No need to reverse into sidings at Buxton surely. There appears to be plenty of room to build an extra platform between the lines on the curve linked by a walkway to the existing station, or even move the station altogether, remove the lines and sell off the land for redevelopment to pay for it. But everything I've read about this is suggesting direct trains from Manchester to Derby?
The station bit is complicated now we used to have two identical stations and the second was the lines to Derby and Ashbourne so we are missing a link to connect the existing station to track heading that way. The land currently vacant I believe is in the councils hands for a mega Gp centre so they can remove all the small existing ones but who knows if they’ll ever do that. And the whole peak rail thing I think will stay in limbo forever I doubt anyone in charge will finally say yes to reopening the line to Matlock and thus to Derby.
I think you are missing the point here.
The VLR vehicle is a prototype so it's to use it on a relatively easily converted route to test it out for other projects in the future.
So whilst on paper it probably doesn't stack up, in testing, it probably would.
A bus wouldn't be as eco friendly, even an electric one, as by FAR the most polluting and carcinogenic factors are tyre dust and brake dust, neither of which the VLR vehicle has any of.
So, I'd respectfully suggest that it IS put forward.
The issue is it has already been tested and other more appropriate clients have shown interest. These locations are urban and far more likely to have an impact on the community and have an economically sound service.
Brake dust, I am afraid is still an issue on rail vehicles as much as it is road and whilst I agree the VLR might be slightly better for the environment I believe not having the service would be better.
Otherwise, a vastly overpriced bus on train wheels going up and down the line, all day to pick up a handful of people seems to be an inconsiderate use of public money and energy.
@@Leock I'm advised that this particular one hasn't yet been fully assessed, and so this project would assist that.
Brake dust on these particular vehicles isn't an issue as it has regenerative braking.
A decent trail between Buxton and Blackwell Mill would be amazing.
It would indeed, such a quick way to cycle to Bakewell too.
Hi Leo I do so agree with your view, their idea is not cost effective and the benefits few.
Let me play the devils advocate and throw in an alternative which whilst more expensive would arguably achieve a great deal more. I am 100% behind rail as a means of transport, it removes vehicles from our congested and expensive to maintain roads and is less polluting. Buxton once had a good railway service before the short sighted decision to close the mainline from Derby to Blackwell Mill. Services ran directly into and out of Buxton to the South and vice-versa for travelers from the South. Trains not stopping at Buxton would stop at Blackwell Mill from where passengers would connect to Buxton. Imagine the boost to the area's economy if this line was reinstated, Buxton would again have rail access the the South instead of a branch only to the North, visitor numbers would massively increase and the terrible congestion of the Peak District's roads especially in summer and holidays could be reduced. In addition places along the line such as Bakewell for example would also benefit in the same way.
The Government's HS3 fiasco has provided money to be spent elsewhere, why not use some of it to reopen the Midland line, its only 13 miles and it is being done elsewhere, but in the South of course?
I am certainly on board and it is a weird conflict of interest in my head as I love the trail and there’s been many days I’ve cycled it and it be congested but I also I’m in favour of reinstating the railway. I’ve done Matlock by train from
Sheffield before and it was a little sad to me that once upon a time I could have just hoped on a train straight home instead of using a bus.
Trains a certainly the way forward to providing a more eco-friendly and stronger public transport all across the country.
Best thing to do would be to simply rebuild the former Cheedale Halt and get Northern to run a service from Sheffield to Buxton. All stations SHF-EDL then via the Peak Forest line to Buxton.
A route to Sheffield from Buxton would be bliss I’ve taken the 65 bus too many times to count and a train would be far nicer and pretty sure quicker than 2.5hr.
Thanks!
Thank you! I hope you’re having a wonderful weekend :)
RevolutionVLR is designed to be ultra low maintenance. Operational costs are reduced to a level where there is not even a need to build a maintenance shed (at least that was the original proposal in 2022). Certainly no requirement for a 2nd unit - things have moved on further since the (even then, highly efficient) Stourbridge days. The accessible platform at Blackwell Mill will be surprisingly affordable. The confusion about Euro 6 (the prototype running at Ironbridge) and fully battery operation (the three pilot vehicles currently being built by TDI) is understandable. Don't give up on this easily - if Buxton has indeed made it to the shortlist, you can be assured that there is a very long waiting list of possible sites behind it
Buses are boring
A heritage line with hourly services and reasonable fares
"Millersdale to Tideswell"..on the Slow Train. ( look it up--Flanders and Swan )...Been on the viaduct walkway...one dismally cold day in Aug 2004... all the way from NZ.... also visited Buxton on an equally dismal day in 2006.. lovely Opera House there but we weren't able to enter the auditorium... then a fog-bound bus ride back to the fleshpots of Macclesfield, past the "Cat and Fiddle"..is that still going? .
It’s perpetually dismal the weather here aha and in a way the cat and fiddle is going but not as a pub a brewery from Macclesfield took it over. I think they have a little shop and do tours of the brewery they set up inside.
@@Leock thanks for replying.,we were staying in Macclesfield w our son and wife who house sat for 2 years... we had a drink in the " Cat" before doing a walk on the hills across the road from....walked to Bollington and back one day along the canal...
Check out the 1938 video
Train a week issue Title Is Mind The Doors (1938)
A VLR will allow better access to the remoteness and enjoyment for those less able
I certainly will do thank you.
An electric bus would be better, if they wanted something fancy.
They’ve been working. trying to restore the Railway on this trail for years as in the comments since 1980s …they can’t even bring back a service to Ollerton when there is track laid out there so sorry to say fat chance this happening ☹️
Take a look at the Swiss solutions. Bike racks on the back of busses and/or single purpose bike carry trailer. Any railway solution should go all the way to Matlock for cost efficiency and share what was a double track railway route with others. Again see Swiss solutions who make it work without the fence because the train only does 40 km/h and can stop in its own length and they have street running (like city trams all round the world).
I never considered operating it similar to a tram for the trail section. I agree if a railway line was to be put in place it should go all the way.
@@Leock Other possibility if considering a tram like solution would be to have feeder routes into towns where like Bakewell, the old station has been reused and is a distance from the town. Could even serve the Show ground to miss out the Haddon Hall tunnel by adding a lane to the A6 and getting back on the old line at Rowsley and using the preserved route to Matlock.
Also smaller narrower gauge vehicles may be considered for street running with cheaper track costs, sharper turns, lower weight. Could run with standard gauge track if a third rail added. Again this concept used in Europe.
That’s a wonderful idea and the Haddon Hall tunnel diversion could easily be done and oddly enough this plan could go full circle and could use vehicles like the VLR or tram-trains/Stadtbahns.
Well said don’t waste such a vast amount of money ,extending would make sense as would better buses
Thx Leo; enjoyed this one. Agree with your suggestions. Have a coffee on me :-)
Thank you so much for your support!
this line is like HS2 waste of money when
So you don't understand what HS2 does? You can fix that lack of knowledge quite easily- HS2 frees up masses of capacity on existing lines for better local/regional services as well as more freight- it needs to be built in full.
@@nwcitroen2222 HS2 LINE IS A WASTE OF TIME & MONEY I DO UNDERSTAND MORE YOU KNOW. ELECTRIFYING THE MIDLAND MAIN LINE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BUILDING NEW HIGH-SPEED THIS SHOULD BE DONE YEARS AGO more
passing points on the East Coast main for the slower train. be pass by high-speed trains.l have been a railway enthusiast for 55 years and a wildlife trust 40 years you do know how much countryside is destroyed each year DR B etching got a lot to answer for.
Surely, if this line were to reopen, it would benefit the local economy in numerous ways. Although I do appreciate the cost of a project such as this.
If they were to reopen the full train line it would make sense but just a train to Blackwell mill seems a waste.
@@Leock Indeed, You and I are in agreement on that point and yes it would definitely make little sense running the line only as far as Blackwell. It needs to run through to Buxton, which as you know, is reasonably sized conibation.
@@LeockSorry Leo, I completely misunderstood what you had written. I meant to say it would make more sense if it began at Matlock and finished at Buxton.
@@Leock Leo, am I right in saying this is merely an idea, or is it a realistic proposition, because this is the first time I've heard about it.
@@martinpawley647 The concept of having the VLR from Buxton to Blackwell is currently going through the council and other parties to start consultation work. Bringing back the line to Matlock has been surveyed and pushed for over 40 years now to no avail.
Do not need extra room for cycles. Let them bike it.
I’ve cycled the A6 before and it’s just to dangerous particularly for the average person who uses the trail.
@@Leockyou are absolutely right. The A6 is very dangerous. Too narrow, too fast for bicycles to share the road with the heavy traffic that uses the road. I have cycled it and was not happy at all doing it.
why not use some type of low floor bus which has lots of space and more to hand for passengers and bikes and disabled users, kids buggies. has duel use. I've seen them being used in some places. at a flick of a switch they go from road wheels to rail wheels and are guided by sensors buried in the ground which the bus follows when off the rail section of the route. i trust they will go for the least common sense approach that will be the most expense waist of money they can buy and wont have the best configuration inside to comfortable fit the all above, bikes and passengers all in one sitting, at to say!
I’ve seen rail/road busses online before unfortunately I think that might come with its own challenges but like you said they’ll most likely go with the one with the least common sense in mind.
Electric trains in Buxton!!!!! Don`t make me laugh, you need to send a pigeon up there with a message on it`s ankle, the hovel is full of unemployed pot heads, Last time I went there they didn`t even know Princess Di had died!!
Surely Buxton is in the Peak District but not in the designated area of the National Park for some reason. I stand to be corrected of course.
As far as I’m aware the Peak District is the name of the national park and nothing else but Buxton is surrounded by it and not included because it would have disrupted the quarrying industry here so when it was marked out in the 1950’s they just carved us out.
The proposal to rebuild the railway from Buxton to Matlock rears its ugly head every few years. It ain't going to happpen.
It's too expensive, but the quarries along the Buxton end of the line (not actually in the Peak District) would love the idea. A railway line to take their stone east built at someone else's expense and using diesel fume belching locomotives probably has them wetting themselves in eager anticipation.
Much of the stone goes west anyway over the Cat and Fiddle or via Ashbourne to the south, all by road.
Peak Rails assurances that cyclists and walkers would still be catered for are empty promises. At the last minute, once such a rail project is started, they will claim that it will be technically and financially impracticable. In any case, the proposed cycle/pedestrian route would use existing footpaths and not the abandoned railway track presently used as the Monsal Trail. The many tunnels along the route could not safely be shared with cyclists and pedestrians. The "alternate" routes around the tunnels are simply non-existent. Before the tunnels were opened to cyclists/walkers in the early days of the Monsal Trail there were ways of getting around them without having to descend a couple of hundred metres to the existing public footpaths on the valley floor. I used them many times. It's called "trespassing".
The Monsal Trail attracts thousands of tourists every year. They would disappear to be replaced by a few dozen railway enthusiasts.
I can't stop this rant without mentioning wheelchair and mobility scooter users who love the trail. There's very few places in the Peak District (or anywhere else for that matter) where they can enjoy a visit to the countryside away from traffic. I've yet to meet a wheelchair user who chose to be disabled.
I would also mention that the link between Darley Dale and the eastern end of the Monsal trail at Bakewell is now non-existent and the Haddon Hall tunnel is in a dangerous condition.
You just hate railways and railway enthusiasts as I can tell by the first few lines of your comment,if this was a new road scheme you would be jerking off over it
It would allow through goods and passenger traffic so it would be good for everyone. Nice try though
@Isochest
There's already a through route via the Hope Valley route. If there had been any demand for goods and passenger service to the south, the loop from west to south at Dore and Totley wouldn't have been removed.
The choice between these two routes was made in the 70s, I think, but I could be wrong.
The rail bed is more or less intact between Topley Pike quarry to Bakewell. That's the extent of the Monsal Trail. From there to Rowsley I'm not too sure about, but I understand that the Haddon Hall tunnel is in a dangerous condition. From Rowsley to Darley Dale, where the Peak Rail heritage railway terminates, the route has been abandoned and built over in places. Thus the route then goes from Darley Dale to Matlock where it connects to the main line system via Ambergate. That long section to Ambergate was once double track but is now only single track.
At Ambergate, where it meets the Derby-Leeds main line, there used to be a loop to go north. That's gone so the only route would be to the south to Derby.
The last time that there was any significant traffic on the route from Buxton to Derby was when the Blue Pullman ran from Manchester to London whilst the more logical westerly route was being electrified.
The cost of rebuilding the Monsal Dale route would be huge and certainly can't be justified in these times when other projects are being cancelled.