The God of Unbelievers: Bonhoeffer and Religionless Christianity
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- In one of his letters, Bonhoeffer says that he finds it easier to talk about God with unbelievers than religious people. Religion, for Bonhoeffer, is an abstraction that distracts us from human life. In Jesus Christ, we discover God at the center of human life, not the periphery. In Jesus Christ God calls us to live as human beings, which means taking responsibility for our lives. This episode explores what he means, and wonders whether Bonhoeffer's religionless Christianity provides an antidote to the shallow spirituality of our present age.
My dilemma in my 70s:
Although a Christian (I think a serious one), nothing is as black or white as it was when I was a young Evangelical.
The "us vs them" the "righteous vs the unrighteous" mentality has virtually evaporated. I've come to realize that being "right" has very little value or meaning.
There are many wonderful people out there who don't believe in Jesus or, if they do, are merely nominal Christians.
What do I do with them?
Do I pray for their wretched souls?
Do I attempt to convert them?
If I don't, will they go to eternal conscious torment in hell?
If I really believed that wouldn't I be out pounding the pavement trying to save everyone?
Like Bonhoeffer, in some ways I'm more comfortable with the non-religious, because they are who they are - very little pretense.
More and more, it seems, my theology is being shaped by the Scriptural truth that God is good, and he loves humankind.
Everything he does in relation to human beings is designed to restore us to the image of God.
He is always for us - not against us.
Otherwise, God would not be love. But 1 John insists that he is (4:8, 16).
Even his justice, then, must be restorative, not retributive.
So, what does that say about judgement and hell?
I don't have answers necessarily.
And you know what?
I'm OK with that.
What does our Savior teach?
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
And, love your neighbor as yourself.
I've made this my goal for the next decade: to be God's love in Christ as faithfully as I can.
Thanks for this!
James-what you wrote here feels as though they were “my thoughts and conclusions” but all tidied up and presented clearly and sincerely❣️ Thank you for this…I am almost 65, so right behind you
Who are we to decide who Christ loves or doesn't, forgives or not right?. Who are we to think we can judge these things? Religion is fellowship around dogma/doctrine/tradition. Faith is an individual endeavor. In many ways it's nobody's business what my relationship with God is or isn't. Thinking there is something any one of us can do that God cannot forgive isn't territory I feel ok hanging around. Repentance, forgiveness, & humility are the playgrounds I like to play on today. The best way to promote a Christ centered life is to live a Christ centered life and let others see the joy, peace and serenity it brings you.
@@PowerFOOLThunderCLOWN Though I clicked an approval button, I feel compelled to comment.
1) You're right about religion as a mere center of fellowship between agreeables. How do we know? Because more often than not Scripture uses this word disapprovingly.
2) a. I've never heard it expressed as you do that "Fatih is an individual matter". The quality of one's faith is too often held to be paramount in a person's life but it's less that quality than it is the object of your faith that counts. Faith in what? Faith in who? is what determines the relationships that save or condemn. b. Could not the faith of a majority in a democratic organization steer that society/nation into position to receive divine blessings or punishment?
3) "nobody's business"? Really? The Jews (starting with the apostles) were commissioned to GO and SHARE with all (people) the good news of the Kingdom. Why because the news is too good to keep to oneself. Especially God. (keep reading)
4) Nothing " that God cannot forgive"? Life is not a game where your do your own thing and then repent when you're caught - repeatedly. And being sorry for your sins does nothing to alleviate your guilt. A real transaction must take place to pay your sin debt.
When you understand what God thru the Lord Jesus Christ did on the cross, you'll change your mind because "Jesus paid it all" a stupefyingly generous, loving, infinitely valuable gift from God to ALL people even before most left their mother's wombs! Romans 5:8.
Blood sacrifice for sins is demanded by the Creator (read Hebrews) and animal blood couldn't qualify so human blood was delivered not by you or me or a saint but by God Himself thru His Son. That done - 2000years ago - we are ALL already eligible for eternal life in the presence of our Lord and Savior - IF He is your Lord and Savior. If He's not the case, then horrible judgement awaits us NOT because of our (paid for) misdeeds but because we have neglected or rejected the pardon offered by God to whomever is willing acknowledge his/her sin (John 1:12, 36 [final, divine sacrificial lamb], Acts 10:43-44, 16:31, Romans 10:9-10) BELIEVE God (the worthy object of our faith) and accept the accomplishment of His Son, Jesus.
Gospel (not of Jesus but of Paul (from Jesus) who points out the absolute totality of forgiveness to just those who accept the post passion gospel, Corinthians 15:1-4. All others suffer estrangement from God in the lake of fire. What a "deal"!
5) Counter to the teachings of most protestant evangelical churches, I understand with you that the best way to promote Christ is to live a Christ-centered life. Have you tried and succeeded in this? I suggest that you (we) may fail - frequently if you socialize or are a member of some work team. Though we who believe Jesus' sacrifice for us are forgiven and have been given everlasting life, we are not yet perfect. Be heartened by reading Romans 7:1-ff, 8:1ff.
All this discussion of particulars of religion is unnecessarily complicated and a diversion from the essentials.
A) There is a God,
B) I'm not him, I'm finite and imperfect
C) Jesus Saves those who honor him with their trust.
@@edwardwalsh5477 You really told me what you think I said huh?
"Orthodoxy" has different meaning to different people. The idea that a Baptist praises God correctly--more correctly than, say, a RC or a Methodist--is ridiculous. Paul indicates in I Corinthians 13:9-12 that he knows only in part. He's stating succinctly that we are all heretics (heresy meaning "false teaching") and do not know orthodoxy--how to correctly praise God. Thus, we pray to Him: "Help my unbelief!"
This pilgrim is processing his progress, circumspectly . Grace Abounding!
Theurgic Intervention too many times to mention. Long Story Short.
I wouldn't have touched me with a barge-pole vaulter.
How do you know my name?
Graven on the palms of His hands! 😊
This guy doesn't quite get it and ends up saying the opposite of what Bonhoeffer is saying. Bonhoeffer is a bit tricky here but if you think of the fact that the German Christians decided "not to get involved in politics " ended so tragically.
In a sense, he was trying to wake people up from "lip service" to worship to worshiping in Spirit and Truth.
Our faith in Christ shouldn't be two dimensional, but multidimensional and multifaceted as Christ is Himself.
Wake people up - yes! Same goes for Kierkegaard. Wake up to the shallow spirituality that deadens us to the world and to life--a life that is grounded in God's love revealed in Jesus Christ.
@@professorlief4804 Amen. We should take the approach of John the Baptist: failure (moral or otherwise) is NOT an option in our purpose!
@@nmbr1son64
As Jesus remarked about becoming as little children. Unpretentious, unmasked, open and undaunted before God as we come in faith before Him, knowing that He sees us ,and knows humanity because he came to be with us , and live among us.
Very provocative and maybe from the other side of the coin
'Spirit' is false and Christian 'Truth' is convoluted lies.
Thank you for this very compelling discussion. So compelling that I am going to bring it up to my pastor at some point soon.
Study the Word of God.
It is the Spirit of TRUTH that leads us into ALL TRUTH.
Maybe he is talking about decentralization. Like what happened to “Christians” after Rome enslaved judeans and scattered them. The Jewish power structures were destroyed (except for Pharisee Judaism which cut a deal with Rome) but the faith of many individuals remained intact.
I think understanding Bonhoeffer requires a deep understanding of the context he lived in, as well as theology, especially Lutheran theology and the history of the German Protestant state church that pushes questions of God and transcendence to the margins of human life, the "God of the gaps", so to speak.
One thing Bonhoeffer is doing is pointing out that religion, as presented in his time, has a false notion of transcendence, and this is why Christians were uneasy about secularism in Germany, and many supported the Fascist regime. He's very much reacting to the notion that "the finite cannot contain the infinite". His theology is very much rooted in Incarnation, especially of a Lutheran, albeit modernist, sort.
The creeds try so hard to pin God down so we know His boundaries when we should be looking for how to tie our selves to Christ and enter into Him.
I agree, (but creeds help us articulate a particular thing within the faith and repetition and unity is great and needed) but putting God in a box is always a bad thing, as per God himself tells us he is the great "I AM" as the surrounding pagans had gods contained only in things like, god/goddess of, sun, moon, medicine, storms, love, war, the God of the bible is not defined by a thing as the creator and God almighty is not bound by human understanding. It's sad I see atheists still compare the 1 true God to a zeus or Santa Claus, this shows the ignorance on this topic as a whole as the 1 true God in no way shape or form is any god of the gaps kind of argument.
CHRIST in us the hope of glory.
Creeds don't box in God. You can't limit God. The creeds explain things. They are just expressions of faith. We are not to create our own versions of Christ. That's the real problem. There is one Loed one faith one baptism.
Christ = the anointing of YHWH, the light of wisdom and truth, it's intangible. It doesn't become a noun until it's begotten in you as the Fathers incorruptible seed giving birth to a New Adam. The christ in you is the hope of glory. The gospel stories were written originally as spiritual allegory and later literalized by Rome. Leading to idolatry and Apostasy.
@@jdaze1 originally spiritual allegory ? Given what you said here, I don't think you know what your talking about, and christianity lead Rome and most of the gentile nations away from paganism and idolatry for the last 2k years. Its so odd when people make historic claims that are in no way based in history, for example tovia singer hates christianity so much he is a jesus mythicist, which looking at historians, theologians, and scholarship, anyone who is a jesus mythicist is like a flat earther or a holocost denier, what gives you confidence in your comment ?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on one of Bonhoeffer's letter. It deepened my understanding why there is anxiety in this world, why each one of us is struggeling in life. By Bonheffer's understanding, God comes into the depths of our anxiety to bring us peace to overcome our anxiety. The root of biblical faith is not in earthly wealth and power. Heaven is waiting for us only after this life. In this life, we have to be prepared to stand by God, especially in struggling and anxiety. Only within the incertainity, our faith can be tested and proved to the utmost. So that we can stand before God blameless, with a pure and refined faith.
Its so easy to criticise from another generation perspective. Historians always do same make same assumptions from their own perspective.
I dont know if people have noticed that most religions which have survived to modern age had originated from Middle East.
The other major religions which did not include:
1. Zoroastrianism
2. Vedic religion
3. Hinduism/animism
4. Buddhism/Jainism
5. Shintoism, daoism, confuciousism.
Other more modern ones like Sikhism and Bahaism.
Out of these Zoroastrianism can be safely categorised in same group as Vedic religion and Shamanism in that they are in many ways worship of natural elements. They can all be categorised as central asian, aryanic religions which has elemebts of nature worship tonits core.
Buddhism/shintoism/confuciousim/daoism are probably safely categorisable as philosophies than religion. They are part of east asian culture.
Hinduism is in all characteristic an offshoot or progressive development of Vedic Religion as a result of intermixing between Aryanic vedic religion and local cultural traditions of south asia which were more like animisms.
So I see a clear pattern in all these. The three major abrahamic religions developed from middle east a region geographically situated betweeen three major continenets of europe, asia and africa ,kind of a region of meeting place of different types of people and has a central figure called God, probably a necessity born out of that natural factor of intermixing of people and ideas.
Animistic religions offcourse had elements of nature worship,animal worship as per local traditions. And these developed across regions of global south from americas to sub saharan africa to south asia, south east asia, polynesia, micronesia and australia
Zoroastrianism probably started of as nature worship like Shamaism somewhere in central asia near border with Iran tand then incorporated the idea of monotheism and a singular central figure due to its geo proximity to middle east while Vedic religion even though starting of as nature worship became part of animistic local traditions of south asia while animistic traditions of africa did not get such chance even though they could be doing so with christianity and islam pretty soon.
Those who use the term Chritianity are referring to people who use Christ's name but are not Christians.
Those who use the term, "the Church," fail to comprehend that the church passed with the Apostles and churches of men arose in its place.
The true church is God's unseen, mystical body known only by the Spirit. All others are men's churches that appeal to the flesh and a carnal organisation.
Those who follow names, whether they be Bonhoffer, Calvin, Augustine, any supposed great name, do not follow Jesus Christ. You cannot serve two masters.
What you ar advancing contradict's Christ and His Apostles and falls into the above categories.
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
It is not the house that is Holly, it is the Spirt that dwells in it. Well said by you.
Thank you so much for this. I had some similar thoughts, but you expressed them beautifully
Context matters. 18:20 he would’ve criticized the gender movement for the divisive intent that it has.
20:30 dialog, yes, but hopefully you’re not suggesting he would support doing away with Bibles and join a commune. The scriptures of the Old Testament were always valued by the early churches that were faithful.
He would’ve criticized modern liturgy for good reason, but that goes the same for the vast majority of churches around the world for the past 1700 years. Emphasis on being proper over loving our neighbor is a problem even Jesus spoke about. However loving our neighbor doesn’t mean blindly supporting every decision our neighbor chooses. Part of loving is setting boundaries and warning our neighbor when our neighbor wanders over to the wide gate. Loving our neighbor means bringing our neighbor back, not pushing our neighbor through with encouragement.
Bonhoeffer remained a good Lutheran. He talks about the "arcane disciplines" meaning those things done in secret. I don't read this as the jettisoning of liturgy or the bible, merely recognizing we're living in a time when these things no longer communicate the way they once did. Which means the Christian community needs to find ways to enter the world on its own terms, having been shaped by the disciplines we do in secret.
Christ is not defined, nor can be by man. God must reveal himself and his identify, to his elect, who he is, and his purpose. Men argue and grumble making their own god, claiming the name of Christ, but know him not.
If I wanted to proof text, I'd hit you with 1 John 3:14: "We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brothers and sisters...." I've seen the dark underside of religion. Allow me:
"There's Ignorance in left field, Hypocrisy in right,
Apathy in center,
Spoiling for a fight,
Pride,, Greed, and Violence,
Shame and Evil all around.
They've got the bases covered,
And the Bender's on the mound.
Batter Up...
"The game's as good as over.
The Closer's throwing strikes.
Half the team is giving in,
Hanging up their spikes,
When off the bench a quiet voice Says, 'Fellas, could I try?'
He stretches out, stands in,
And looks the Pitcher in the eye.
"In hateful recognition,
The Hurler winds to start.
All he's got is on the ball;
He aims it for the heart.
The Batter's down.
He's up! On base!
Takes second, third, the trip!
The Bender has been broken;
He's lost his deadly grip!
"Now Hope is coming to the plate;
Justice is on deck.
The stadium rocks as Righteousness
And Liberty connect!
Truth and Beauty single;
Grace and Mercy take ball four,
And back again, the Star drives in
The pennant-winning score!
"Who will lead the rally?
What will be the cry?
Where are all the heroes?
How can we know why?
Someone picked the lumber up
And blew the game sky-high.
Someone picked the lumber up
And blew
The game
Sky-high.
Batter Up!
Play ball!"
(c) 1995, Dan Eumurian.
www.lacrossepiano.com/sports
I've started telling prospectives that He went to the Father so now He is able to reach back into this plane of existence, and He will, when asked in faith, in order to do the convincing.
Love Bonhoeffer!
I've read every book he wrote and every book written about him!
I'm going to look him up in heaven!
Just came back from Wroclaw /Breslau. Looking forward to learn more about him
The fact you have to argue over "what it means" to just be a decent person... arguing over "Jesus Christ"... is just such a pathetic moral failure right off the bat. Didn't get beyond the first 4 minutes.
What does it mean to be a decent person?
@@professorlief4804 Surely the professor knows this is one of the on-going existential questions throughout human history. The question is, why is he pretending otherwise and asking lame adolescent-level "questions" rather than at least reference Plato's Dialogues on "What is The Good?"
This is something happening in my life
and I think its something God is doing in the large scale. I the end there will be no ufo christians. It will taste life but yet not wordly. There has to be real love relationship secret place time with God..
2 people Joseph and Daniel to consider in this. they were in in the world but not off the world.
As Jesus was and God genuine way to be I am what I am there is nothing weird. at least weird as false, as religious spirit is. At best religious weird is to protect the person until they are made new man. then he becomes right way to live.
He (Jesus) was into simplification: "If I'll be lifted up, I will draw all to me, and I (as the HS) will do the convincing.
At 8 minute Mark he started talking about politics and that's when he began to lose my interest
That's because politics is the new religion. It's the place where ideology has taken root. My point is to suggest that politics is now the place that needs to be demythologized.
🤔But Jesus Christ had to deal with politics the whole time here🤨🤷🏽♂️🤦🏾♂️🙇🏽♂️
In sports it comes down to playing with sportsmanship, with integrity.
But these facets of life now, are being faced with the reality of the spiritual enemy of God trying to interject and intervene, to the place where we can now see the end of the ride coming up quickly.
You might find Steven Covey's book The Devine Center an enlightening read.
I'll check it out!
I am a little unclear what the meaning or intention of quoting bernie sanders was ? And i half agree as when religion is co-opted in ways it has no/little meaning but as a marketing tactic, on the other end as far as this self expression is the highest form of social status, but when tim tebow wears John 3:16 and other Christian athletes its a great thing, even if say the WWE used stone cold steve Austin's promo of austin 3:16, if its only a marketing tactic it can and did have positive outcomes as a little curiosity to austin 3:16 to John 3:16 to the 4 fold gospels, maybe the whole new testamemt then the old / Tanak and going to a solid church and the further exploration of the bible and theology as a whole.
I heard Bernie Sanders say that our politics should be boring. By that, I think he means, or at least I took him to mean, it should be about practical issues - solving problems. Instead, ideology has overtaken everything. I'm not going to make a big deal about athletes or celebs using the bible, but it CAN become co-opted.
@@professorlief4804oh yeah i totally agree. And yes politics is boring when done right, but modern politics has become a reality show sort of entertainment with theatrics. And also yes religion has been co-opted for marketing schemes and generally to reach that kind of consumer, i was just contrasting when religion is used in a non co-opted way like a patrick mahomes, and steph curry but i absolute agree, and if i may ask your a professor in a US university ? If so more teachers should do educational stuff online, granted if they have time.
Is not the same Christian (Protestant), and Catholic
And they worshipped the creature more than the creator……empathy not sympathy. Actions not talk. Faith not religion.
Very well done,thank you
It's like back seat drivers..
It's pretty simple to recognize evil when you see it.
More like *Godless*. What a way to make a mockery of Christianity, turning it into a mere materialist philosophy.
Basically, what you are saying is that quoting the Bible is unnecessary and overly dogmatic. But then the question is: what is your point of reference? What is your basis for morality? You think, for instance, that the Bible's prohibition of homosexuality is just optional?
Then you, my friend, are no Christian. You're just spreading false doctrines.
@@robertd9965 love your brother as you love yourself. We are obligated to share the way the truth and the life.
@@robertnowak732 We're obligated to love our brothers and sisters, true. Doesn't mean we should condone what they do, quite the contrary, brother. What this guy is suggesting is relativism in its purest form: no moral standards, except for a hazy reference to Jesus Christ, which ain't worth much if it's not connected to a moral code given by God.
Also, doesn't Jesus Christ's story kinda fall apart if we take away everything biblical? I mean, what else is our basis for Him?
This whole thing is ridiculous.
I'm with you: Love is essential. But that includes the love of God (which comes even before the love for my brother), which in turn necessitates a moral framework. If you doubt what I'm saying, re-read the Sermon of the Mount (and better add the whole 4 Gospels afterwards).
@@robertd9965Please dont misunderstand me. I believe we are in agreement. I would not want to be left in the dark and I won't leave my brother in that condition, and though nothing convicts but the spirit I will die on my feet.
If you have God in your heart, then you don't need to consult the bible to know what's right, you already know.
@@airevolt1 If the Bible is so useless in your opinion, what was its utility in the first place? Why would the Holy Spirit inspire the people who walked with Jesus Christ to write down their testimonies, in order for Christ's disciples to receive them?
Why would God give us a - sometimes quite specific - moral code if you could just make every decision with your oh-so-pure heart?
Nah, what you're saying is Gnostic heresy, my friend. It's the way to self-righteousness, on to amorality, and ultimately to outright evil. Yes, we should keep God in our hearts. But that doesn't mean that the things we were taught in Scripture are worthless, let alone that we should just neglect in a way that completely contradicts it.
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)
The thing is: you don't always know, brother. And if you think you do, then you probably lack quite a bit of humility.
💘
The first religion recorded in history is the sumerian cult that worshipped nimrod, semiramis, and the mythical son god tamnus. The people of that region attacked Abraham's land/family. Abraham was a mere human who god revealed himself to. He is never recorded as starting a religion. All religions west of the orient are derivations of the sumerian cult: they worship a mythical woman with a mythical son, and all gods are under baal. There is only one reality that matters: has jesus revealed himself to you/ does he know you? Any other question doesnt protect you from rejection.
I don't know when - maybe late eighteenth century or early ninteenth - sombody or some group of people decided it would be to their advantage to define "religion" as theism as if to imply that worship of anything other than God (or more specifically the God of Abraham) doesn't really matter or should be ignored. The next step was to further narrow the definution to include only institutional religion. When people tell me, "Christianity isn't a religion" I think they are trying to articulate their rejection of institutional religion in favor of personal religion. I say it this way, "Religion is the sum of those beliefs, practices and prohibitions that pertain to a person's concept of the highest powers of the universe." If people with similar belifs and practices wish to create (or maintain) organizations to promote thise beliefs and practices, I'm not opposed to that. But when they start calling the organization a "Church" or especially when they start calling it "the Church", they are repeating the mistake that led to institutional religion in the first place. Faith is the evidence of things not seen so I prefer to encourage people to read for themselves, study for themselves and think for themselves. If they wish to includ reading and studying the Bible, I like to show them how to use such study tools as marginal references and concordances. But if the only things they learn are things I've already discovered, they probably aren't really reading, studying and thinking for themselves.
unending difficulties, suffering and general mismanagement when we bring our Creator and Almighty Lord down to * our * level.
a lot of 'why dinn He answer my prayerrrrr' crap
When we turn God into an idea, then God has nothing to do with human life. So what's the point?
This sounds impotent as hell. Can't put my finger on it. Maybe because that is what is coming.
Creeds are non Biblical.
The use Biblical like words are false.
No Creeds, but Christ.
Man made statements of faith are Man made diversions.
Not Faith just controling documents. The sectarian dogmas come as addendum to Creeds.
Flee from creeds.
I don't think we need to flee from them, just hold them loosely. No creed but Christ is a creedal statement! They are attempts to give language to our experience of God, so in that way they are important. But they can also get in the way of experiencing God!
"No Creeds, but Christ" is still a creed.
@@JeremyHulseyThis! Yes.
@@professorlief4804 You miss the obvious that the creeds are in opposition to Christ. Peter knew Christ to be the Christ, the Son of the living God by revelation not by any creed or anything that man said.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
@@JeremyHulsey
Don't be foolish, it is the opposite.
Sounds a lot like liberation theology. The doctrine of the snake.
From letters in prison?
The virgin daughter of Zion that travails in childbirth with her firstborn was not a woman named Mary and her Firstborn was not a man named Jesus. Its all defined in the OT. The Son of God is not one person just like the bride is not one person. The gospels are spiritual allegory.
Які ж мої співвітчизники таки дурні. Це в цьому поколінні вже неможливо вилікувати.
Are you German?
Is Jesus a person, or rather a principle (a way of behaving)?
True Christianity is not a religion !
Jesus Christ is a contrived fairy tale.
Many Christians would agree with you! Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, etc. Myth and Fairy stories are not at all at odds with the gospel.
@@professorlief4804 The Christian 'gospel' being at odds with reality. John 17:16 being Jesus Christ's direct command for Christians/'the church' to be out of touch.
A whole bunch of Roman (pagan!) and Jewish historians would disagree with you. But then again, lack of evidence has never bothered those spreading lies, has it?
@@robertd9965 No evidence of 'Jesus being divine' or (anything 'divine' at all) just the emergence of this cult and a description of its beliefs.
@@williamoarlock8634 There's evidence of his crucifixion as well as his resurrection.
If you don't believe me, research it. Look for the truth. You're just repeating lies.