Agreed. You can also look at it from the statistics point of view. In series, that parts variation will add up. In parallel, the parts variation will partially be compensated.
Those of us who actually build cross overs and hear the difference between quality and budget "parts" applaud you sir. It’s not subtle but you do have to know what your trying to discern. One will hear a broader, deeper sound stage with better separation and timbre with nicer components.
I realize this can be a highly “subjective” subject; what sounds “better” If resistor “value” accuracy is more important than parasitic Reactance, then achieve the closest resistor value best way you can (parallel or series) On the other hand, if parasitic Reactance is the “enemy” then I see two scenarios: 1) Resistor is on the “through” path, put them in parallel (to reduce inductance) 2) Resistor is going to “ground” put them in series (to reduce capacitance) In general, resistors in parallel give you better power handling options, use smaller parts Lastly, even though we cannot hear past 20kHz, high-end audio circuits are typically designed for much higher frequency handling (50 kHz and even 75kHz) in that case, wire-wound resistors are the enemy (most inductive) so stick to carbon-comp if you can
Wilson Audio believes in the sound of resistors. They manufacture their own resistors and have a lengthy procedure for ensuring their resistor's tolerances after burning them in. They are each measured and verified to ultimately ensure their sound. I believe they pot tbeir crossovers in resin too to minimize vibration.
All the high end crossovers I've designed use non-inductive wire wound resistors ... I also find that the value of a resistor can quite easily be found in the E24 series ( if available ) and parallel connections aren't necessary... the only caveat is power rating ... so careful selection is important..😀
There’s no such thing as a non-inductive wirewound resistor; nor a carbon or metal film resistor; even an uncoiled piece of wire has inductance. It doesn’t have to be in the form of a coil. It’s just a matter of how much inductance. Hence, the less inductance there is, the higher the usable frequency for the resistor in frequency oriented application. 👨🏻
@@shipsahoy1793 sorry .... you're wrong on this one .... non inductive wire wound resistors DO exist !! It's a pity I can't show you the catalogue pages showing these things. All I know is they achieve an anti reactance within the winding ... bifilar wound and connected out of phase ... I might smash one up and see what really is inside ! I have taken inductance measurements at various frequencies of a 100R 10W non inductive resistor and it doesn't have any ... they cost more ... but they are well worth it ..
@@janinapalmer8368 no you can’t completely cancel physics, so you need to find out what the reactance looks like over frequency. You don’t need an inductorless resistor beyond audio frequencies anyway. Parasitics exist eventually at some frequency with all components. Any real engineer can tell you that!
@@shipsahoy1793 Well I learned something new today. Low reactance wire wound resistors can use a Ayrton-Perry winding to minimize inductive and capacitive parasitics. There is a little blurb about this on wikipedia.
@@markvalery8632 yep; it could have been worse. The other day I had an opinion about something, not a fact, just an opinion based on experience, and some one told me my opinion was wrong. Talk about insanity!? Btw, I am a retired RF engineer, so my brethren knows about component parasitics all to well. I never got into low reactance power resistors for passive crossovers though. It’s just a matter of mitigating reactance at audio frequencies, and up to 40 kHz should be high enough even for picky people that have excellent hearing.
Thanks for all the great info. I have a question that, so far, nobody has been able to answer without a convoluted explanation of electronic engineering. When adding additional 4 Ohm speakers in a parallel connection, can I add in line resistors resistor to keep the impedance constant; for instance, each 4 ohm out on the amplifier goes to a 4 Ohm speaker. If I connect another 4 Ohm speaker to each output, the parallel connecttion will drop the load to 2 Ohms; so adding a 2 Ohm/25W resistor to each additional speaker should keep the load at 4 Ohms. Am I mistaken? My 5.1 surround sound system has 4 speakers + the LFE out to a subwoofer. Each speaker is rated at 4 Ohms, matching the amp output. But I want to add four more 4 Ohm speakers, for a total of 8 speakers. Would adding 2 Ohm resistors to the additional speakers protect the circuit from overheating?
To get a 4 ohm load, you'd need two 8 ohms loads in parallel, and to get the same loudness out of your speakers, you'd need to put the same current through them, so the added resistances would only mean you'll need more voltage and therefore power to get there, IMHO.
Hi Paul I have some older Sansui speakers want to say around 1983 I was thinking about changing out the capacitors in the crossover you think that's a good idea they are getting up in up in age thanks a lot like your videos
@Stephen Stevens seriously though, im "in the winter of my years" and very happy with my mostly DIY system as it stands now. I have stopped focusing on listening to the hardware in favor of just enjoying the music and appreciating the Artistes' contribution.
@@stephenstevens6573 Let the Audiophiles have their “playing with my hardware” fun. They like Tinkering with buttons, knobs, cables, etc etc. EQ software, Scopes to measure everything, listening to electricity flowing through their cables. Panic attacks if they think they are missing one bit in a music file. If Britney Spears is actually wearing underwear on stage in that short skirt.. OOPS
Top end resistors are typically 30-60 each. Once you get beyond $8 Mills resistors and similar quality wire-wound resistors, the differences will be very small. And depending on the rest of your system, placement, room, etc. they may or may not make a difference, subtle as it may be.
Can you series and/or parallel different types together? A metal film and a wire wound? In parallel you could get the advantage of each with the resistance total needed.
I'll add, for things like Metal FIlm, peoplle say inductive, but it really depends, Low value Matal film will have an inductive element, due to the way the resistor is formed, over 100 or so ohms the parasitics balance out so it behaves very much like a text book resistor, and then for higher values above say 470R then inter groove capacitance begins to dominate. The only true difference I guess, which you can measure, is for the very old carbon composite, as they become non-linear as voltage (three figures +) goes up, The non-linearity is real-time kHz. In valve amplifiers where high voltages are the norm, you can observe a compression effect as the Anode resistor value drops in real time, as the signal swing reaches it's peak, dynamically lowering gain. I would go for a high stability with a low thermal gradient.
"on a resolving system..." I think this gets to the nub of a central issue in high end audio. we have systems that are incredibly musical (that spec well)... and those that are incredibly resolving (that sound fine). the former "intent-bias" may leave the last iota of detailed performance uncovered while the later may lean toward test-bench device. across this continuum, preference among alternatives is driven by personal values, taste, experience, & etc. I guess humans are simply highly contentious & competitive.
Just get carbon film but not carbon composite, 2% 6 Ohm 3 watt Vishay resistors. make sure you use non-inductive resistors. Don't get above 2% if you're not going to be buying in bulk and testing them. The most important thing is each speaker has to have Close match as possible, I wouldn't bother with the mondorf there not anything special probably metal film... not as good as carbon.
Less than 2 Euro per Mundorf-resistor is not much for my budget, as a one time investment. Compared to many speakers, they are very cheap, but still most manufacturers of speakers don’t use good quality parts. That is why GR-Research is doing what he does.
Resistors have properties of inductance and thermal dependencies besides resistance itself. There is nothing about resistors that can't be measured with simple measurement tools although thermal resistance dependencies obviously require some heat chamber to measure. Two resistors in series doubles the inductance and an inductor is a low pass filter also affecting phase. Thus higher frequencies will be more affected by resistors in series, if the resistor has a coil in it. The topic is about good engineering practices and the notion that certain resistors need to cost a fortune to be audiophile is mostly about snake oil business.
Agreed, good poont on series / parallel inductance. I think you already realise we are discussing nH attached to one hell of a coil in gods own magnetic gap. :- )
@@Roosville1 Yes, agree. Our brain is great at fooling us to conclude that A sounds better than B if A is more expensive or considered "audiophile grade".
Procure some nichrome resistance wire that has a given resistance value per metre length and wind it in non inductive fashion on to a non metallic former of your choice.
I like my resistors to be in a combination of series and parallel that way I get the best of both worlds. Oh yeah and I mix them up, one will be wire wound, one would be metal oxide, the other carbon film😂
It is really true. If you cook, every sort of potato has a different time to cook and tastes differently. With electronic components its the same. And it all works together.
You guys are FULL of it. Do you really think you can hear the difference between a 3ohm resistor that is 50 CENTS vs a 10.00 one? Bunch of snake oil, especially the never tiring excuse “you can only hear it if the system is audiophile grade and cost you 100K”….if you were stupid enough to spend 100k then you sure would be stupid enough to hear a difference between two 3ohm resistors. Before you know it you’ll say that you can hear resistor’s TOLERANCE and how every should use 0.1% tolerance resistors.😂😂
Yep, you can definitely 100% I’ve tried many and different kinds. In my point of view a type of resistor is the last tuning aspect when finalising the colour of the sound you want, like cables or interconnects but is not as critical as in capacitors or in amps that work with a lot of negative feedback. Differences are easier to hear on very fast simple Single Ended amps or preamps with No Negative Global Feedback.
For any 3 way speaker which I made for very real sounding in last 30 years it was bad to the use any resistor in high or middle (and low) . . .Resistors consumed energy in parts of band which carried important audio information and that energy and information was thrown with resistor to bin.
In an ideal world where the resistance value is all that matters.....and the only difference between cheap and expensive is the profit margin.....then yes. But we're not in an ideal world, are we?
Yes, its true. Electronics engineer here, also did not believe this stuff about resistors, wires, capacitors affecting the sound. I built my own resolving amplifier, experimented and was shocked to findout. Even fuses change the sound.
Agreed. You can also look at it from the statistics point of view. In series, that parts variation will add up. In parallel, the parts variation will partially be compensated.
Those of us who actually build cross overs and hear the difference between quality and budget "parts" applaud you sir. It’s not subtle but you do have to know what your trying to discern. One will hear a broader, deeper sound stage with better separation and timbre with nicer components.
I realize this can be a highly “subjective” subject; what sounds “better”
If resistor “value” accuracy is more important than parasitic Reactance, then achieve the closest resistor value best way you can (parallel or series)
On the other hand, if parasitic Reactance is the “enemy” then I see two scenarios:
1) Resistor is on the “through” path, put them in parallel (to reduce inductance)
2) Resistor is going to “ground” put them in series (to reduce capacitance)
In general, resistors in parallel give you better power handling options, use smaller parts
Lastly, even though we cannot hear past 20kHz, high-end audio circuits are typically designed for much higher frequency handling (50 kHz and even 75kHz) in that case, wire-wound resistors are the enemy (most inductive) so stick to carbon-comp if you can
Wilson Audio believes in the sound of resistors. They manufacture their own resistors and have a lengthy procedure for ensuring their resistor's tolerances after burning them in. They are each measured and verified to ultimately ensure their sound. I believe they pot tbeir crossovers in resin too to minimize vibration.
THANKS PAUL, FOR SHARING SOUND ADVICE 🤗💚💚💚
Where's the study that shows series resistors sounds different to parallel resistors.
It is in the room at he end of the hall on the right. Why don't you run down there and read it.
I'll be listening to the music while you are gone.
All the high end crossovers I've designed use non-inductive wire wound resistors ... I also find that the value of a resistor can quite easily be found in the E24 series ( if available ) and parallel connections aren't necessary... the only caveat is power rating ... so careful selection is important..😀
There’s no such thing as a non-inductive wirewound resistor; nor a carbon or metal film resistor; even an uncoiled piece of wire has inductance.
It doesn’t have to be in the form of a coil. It’s just a matter of how much inductance. Hence, the less inductance there is, the higher the usable frequency for the resistor in frequency oriented application. 👨🏻
@@shipsahoy1793 sorry .... you're wrong on this one .... non inductive wire wound resistors DO exist !! It's a pity I can't show you the catalogue pages showing these things. All I know is they achieve an anti reactance within the winding ... bifilar wound and connected out of phase ... I might smash one up and see what really is inside ! I have taken inductance measurements at various frequencies of a 100R 10W non inductive resistor and it doesn't have any ... they cost more ... but they are well worth it ..
@@janinapalmer8368 no you can’t completely cancel physics, so you need to find out what the reactance looks like over frequency. You don’t need an inductorless resistor beyond audio frequencies anyway. Parasitics exist eventually at some frequency with all components. Any real engineer can tell you that!
@@shipsahoy1793 Well I learned something new today. Low reactance wire wound resistors can use a Ayrton-Perry winding to minimize inductive and capacitive parasitics. There is a little blurb about this on wikipedia.
@@markvalery8632 yep; it could have been worse. The other day I had an opinion about something, not a fact, just an opinion based on experience, and some one told me my opinion was wrong.
Talk about insanity!?
Btw, I am a retired RF engineer, so my brethren knows about component parasitics all to well.
I never got into low reactance power resistors for passive crossovers though. It’s just a matter of mitigating reactance at audio frequencies, and up to 40 kHz should be high enough even for picky people that have excellent hearing.
Great advice about parallel and series, I agree with you, and it’s safe.
fyi, idk about them fancy resistors, but ebays got 100 watt resistors, I just got 3 ohm ones, they measured 3.07 and 3.11 ohms so... close enough
Thanks for all the great info. I have a question that, so far, nobody has been able to answer without a convoluted explanation of electronic engineering. When adding additional 4 Ohm speakers in a parallel connection, can I add in line resistors resistor to keep the impedance constant; for instance, each 4 ohm out on the amplifier goes to a 4 Ohm speaker. If I connect another 4 Ohm speaker to each output, the parallel connecttion will drop the load to 2 Ohms; so adding a 2 Ohm/25W resistor to each additional speaker should keep the load at 4 Ohms. Am I mistaken?
My 5.1 surround sound system has 4 speakers + the LFE out to a subwoofer. Each speaker is rated at 4 Ohms, matching the amp output. But I want to add four more 4 Ohm speakers, for a total of 8 speakers. Would adding 2 Ohm resistors to the additional speakers protect the circuit from overheating?
To get a 4 ohm load, you'd need two 8 ohms loads in parallel, and to get the same loudness out of your speakers, you'd need to put the same current through them, so the added resistances would only mean you'll need more voltage and therefore power to get there, IMHO.
Hi Paul I have some older Sansui speakers want to say around 1983 I was thinking about changing out the capacitors in the crossover you think that's a good idea they are getting up in up in age thanks a lot like your videos
Caddock makes metal film resistors in TO-220 packages, some rated for 50 Watts.
Gotta love it! Now i'm really piqued, I've got a few $K to burn, anyone know where I can audition some high-end audiophile resistors?❤😂
😂😂😅😅
😂😂😅😅
@Stephen Stevens seriously though, im "in the winter of my years" and very happy with my mostly DIY system as it stands now. I have stopped focusing on listening to the hardware in favor of just enjoying the music and appreciating the Artistes' contribution.
@@stephenstevens6573
Let the Audiophiles have their “playing with my hardware” fun. They like
Tinkering with buttons, knobs, cables, etc etc.
EQ software, Scopes to measure everything, listening to electricity flowing through their cables.
Panic attacks if they think they are missing one bit in a music file. If Britney Spears is actually wearing underwear on stage in that short skirt.. OOPS
Top end resistors are typically 30-60 each. Once you get beyond $8 Mills resistors and similar quality wire-wound resistors, the differences will be very small. And depending on the rest of your system, placement, room, etc. they may or may not make a difference, subtle as it may be.
Paul wants us to get wound up - it’s good for the CZcams algorithm. There you go, I’ve just helped….
Mundorf mox are for 1.50€. Small tollerance better result
Can you series and/or parallel different types together? A metal film and a wire wound? In parallel you could get the advantage of each with the resistance total needed.
Absolutely!
Nice comment. I just learned something.
I'll add, for things like Metal FIlm, peoplle say inductive, but it really depends, Low value Matal film will have an inductive element, due to the way the resistor is formed, over 100 or so ohms the parasitics balance out so it behaves very much like a text book resistor, and then for higher values above say 470R then inter groove capacitance begins to dominate. The only true difference I guess, which you can measure, is for the very old carbon composite, as they become non-linear as voltage (three figures +) goes up, The non-linearity is real-time kHz. In valve amplifiers where high voltages are the norm, you can observe a compression effect as the Anode resistor value drops in real time, as the signal swing reaches it's peak, dynamically lowering gain. I would go for a high stability with a low thermal gradient.
"on a resolving system..."
I think this gets to the nub of a central issue in high end audio. we have systems that are incredibly musical (that spec well)... and those that are incredibly resolving (that sound fine). the former "intent-bias" may leave the last iota of detailed performance uncovered while the later may lean toward test-bench device. across this continuum, preference among alternatives is driven by personal values, taste, experience, & etc. I guess humans are simply highly contentious & competitive.
Just get carbon film but not carbon composite, 2% 6 Ohm 3 watt Vishay resistors.
make sure you use non-inductive resistors. Don't get above 2% if you're not going to be buying in bulk and testing them. The most important thing is each speaker has to have Close match as possible, I wouldn't bother with the mondorf there not anything special probably metal film... not as good as carbon.
Audio grade resistors, that sounds so seductive! 😂 Those resistors should be expensive and hard to find! 🤔
Less than 2 Euro per Mundorf-resistor is not much for my budget, as a one time investment. Compared to many speakers, they are very cheap, but still most manufacturers of speakers don’t use good quality parts. That is why GR-Research is doing what he does.
allen bradley resistors are fine and won't break the bank. And they even hiss a tiny bit.
Resistors have properties of inductance and thermal dependencies besides resistance itself. There is nothing about resistors that can't be measured with simple measurement tools although thermal resistance dependencies obviously require some heat chamber to measure. Two resistors in series doubles the inductance and an inductor is a low pass filter also affecting phase. Thus higher frequencies will be more affected by resistors in series, if the resistor has a coil in it. The topic is about good engineering practices and the notion that certain resistors need to cost a fortune to be audiophile is mostly about snake oil business.
Agreed, good poont on series / parallel inductance. I think you already realise we are discussing nH attached to one hell of a coil in gods own magnetic gap. :- )
@@Roosville1 Yes, agree. Our brain is great at fooling us to conclude that A sounds better than B if A is more expensive or considered "audiophile grade".
Parallel you will increase the wattage so you can buy 2x smaller wattage
2 X 1Watt in parallel and 2 X 1Watt in series both equal 2 watts.
Procure some nichrome resistance wire that has a given resistance value per metre length and wind it in non inductive fashion on to a non metallic former of your choice.
Agreed, pork makes a really fine sounding former.
@Roosville1What a great idea, you should start a company that makes loudspeaker crossovers and name it Porcine Productions.
It's obvious that some people are going to have resistance to Paul's comments.
I like my resistors to be in a combination of series and parallel that way I get the best of both worlds. Oh yeah and I mix them up, one will be wire wound, one would be metal oxide, the other carbon film😂
Βest...❤❤❤❤
1:15 “in a resolving system they all have a little different sound” 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 GTFOH!!!!
It is really true. If you cook, every sort of potato has a different time to cook and tastes differently. With electronic components its the same. And it all works together.
You guys are FULL of it. Do you really think you can hear the difference between a 3ohm resistor that is 50 CENTS vs a 10.00 one? Bunch of snake oil, especially the never tiring excuse “you can only hear it if the system is audiophile grade and cost you 100K”….if you were stupid enough to spend 100k then you sure would be stupid enough to hear a difference between two 3ohm resistors. Before you know it you’ll say that you can hear resistor’s TOLERANCE and how every should use 0.1% tolerance resistors.😂😂
Yep, you can definitely 100% I’ve tried many and different kinds. In my point of view a type of resistor is the last tuning aspect when finalising the colour of the sound you want, like cables or interconnects but is not as critical as in capacitors or in amps that work with a lot of negative feedback. Differences are easier to hear on very fast simple Single Ended amps or preamps with No Negative Global Feedback.
You know what they say about opinions.
For any 3 way speaker which I made for very real sounding in last 30 years it was bad to the use any resistor in high or middle (and low) . . .Resistors consumed energy in parts of band which carried important audio information and that energy and information was thrown with resistor to bin.
In an ideal world where the resistance value is all that matters.....and the only difference between cheap and expensive is the profit margin.....then yes.
But we're not in an ideal world, are we?
Yes, its true. Electronics engineer here, also did not believe this stuff about resistors, wires, capacitors affecting the sound. I built my own resolving amplifier, experimented and was shocked to findout. Even fuses change the sound.
Does anyone no if a larger air coil conduct does it help sound quality ver smaller. 😊
Todays letter comes from Isreal. Tomorrows letter will be from antartica 😅😂😅😂