The Zygon Inversion - Take Two Doctor Who Review
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- The Zygons extremists move toward their end game, with their leader wearing the face of Jenna Coleman's Clara Oswald. This wraps up a two parter and contains possibly the most beloved speech that Peter Capaldi ever gave in his time as the 12th Doctor.
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My take on the "last 15 times" line was that the Doctor has been resetting the memories of the people in that room and trying to talk them down again and again until he got them to listen.
That's how I saw it. Or at least how I remember seeing it, it's been awhile.
Ooh! That works!
I just assumed that, per rule 1, the Doctor lied.
Oh, I like that.
I remember being bothered by the line before, but not as much as Nathaniel. After hearing him run through it, though, I was bothered as much. Your reasoning, however, my just have to be my headcanon to fix it. Thanks.
Was coming to say the same thing.
I feel like this was so obvious? I've not finished the review but was there genuine confusion about this?
I'd like to imagine he simply meant that Kate found out that the boxes were empty fifteen times. It doesn't necessarily mean the failsafe had to be employed that many times.
This story has its flaws but Jenna playing a villain is excellent and so is Capaldi’s speech. Some of the best performances in doctor who imo.
I’d rate it a 8.5/10
Bonnie is one of my favorite villains. Her motivation is very clear (and correct to her)... 🐸
@@MekQuarrie same here honestly, the motives and portrayal of bonnie really sells her to me.
I was hoping the 'last 15 times' was the Doctor was just trolling Kate before rendering it inconsequential with the mind wipe.
You finally found an opening quote that doesn't sound strange with an American accent!
It seems heavily implied by the episode that part of why Clara is able to exert control in The Bonnie Situation (hehe) is because of the events of Last Christmas (which is called back to with the idea of reading something in a dream). And generally, once someone is aware that they are dreaming there is the possibility of control (it's just in this case that control translates to the outside world). And she's been in enough situations that would require strong focus, concentration and will (as a lot of companions would be by this point) that it's not too much of a stretch to assume she would be able to exert some influence.
The callback to Day of the Doctor stuff is also cool (and the idea that Bonnie is at a disadvantage because the Doctor knows that face is very clever) and the line of Clara Oswald being in your head and "[her] never leaving" is some real ironic clever foreshadowing to the end of Hell Bent.
This episode does the seemingly impossible: have someone give a big speech condemning violence and war WITHOUT coming off as a sanctimonious prick. The only other time I've seen this pulled off so well is Miguel Ferrer in Twin Peaks.
DOCTOR: All over the world, fools are poised ready to let death fly. A spark could turn into an inferno.
MORGAINE: What do I care? This is war.
DOCTOR: Is it? Death falling from the sky, blind, random, anywhere, anytime. No one is safe, no one is innocent? Machines of death, Morgaine, are screaming from above, of light brighter than the sun. Not a war between armies nor a war between nations, but just death, death gone mad. The child looks up in the sky, his eyes turn to cinders. No more tears, only ashes. Is this honour? Is this war? Are these the weapons you would use? Tell me!
@@weejas Classic Who right? What serial?
Jenna Coleman plays a great villain.
I get your point about Clara fighting back but I don't see it as 'just because it's Clara' or because Clara is special. I see it that it is because she's Clara, or more accurately because she's a companion. Time travel and being with the Doctor changes companions in many ways. If this was any other companion, they would be fighting back and texting as well. So, I don't go with it happening because it's Clara but because it's a companion.
I always saw the Zygella thing as a play on Nigella Lawson (a TV cook, if you know who that is) and nothing more. Why he does it beyond the reference for the audience I'm not sure of. It's not particularly funny or relevant to anything, beyond a name association.
You are absolutely correct that human Osgood was the one who survived previously. It doesn't work any other way.
I'd argue he dialed it up to 12.
I JUST KNEW you were gonna use part of his speech as the opening to your video lol
When it’s one of the biggest moments of the episode, series, he’ll maybe even the last 10 years of Doctor Who... it’s obvious that it would be the opener.
"Clara is soooo special!" "How so?" "In a super-special way!" "But why?" "Because!" Uuungh...
No no no no, the "15 times" was in reference to that same conversation.
"I'm trying to get you to see, and I'm almost there" the doctor has had this argument 15 times one after an another. Each attempt getting closer and closer to bonnie seeing reason.
He was not talking about a conversation on 15 separate occasions.
"Zygella" is used for the Zygon after the very beautiful UK Celebrity cook, Nigella Lawson. Jenna Coleman has seemingly deliberately been made up to look like her.
Still a little silly to have it there, except for meta-reasons. I mean, I enjoyed the reference, but in-universe he's trying to get Bonnie on board whilst calling her that, which is very undiplomatic given the tension of the situation, and it detracts from the impact of the speech, if only slightly. I think it bothered me only slightly when I watched it, to the point I'd forgotten about it until it was raised in the video.
I didn't take the "last 15 times" comment to mean that the war/conflict has started and been stopped 15 times. I took it to mean that the doctor had given a speech/an appeal 15 times for this same war/conflict before he got both Bonnie and Kate to stand down.
I just posted this on the Patreon comments. I took it to mean he had given the speech 15x in that room before getting Bonnie to stand down. When he tells Bonnie "you're almost there" I read into that line that he has been there with them some time.
That’s a possibility that never occurred to me, and while it would alleviate my issues I don’t know if that tracks since we see them all enter the room and it’s a continuous scene.
Well the alternative is just as bad as one of the guys from 5 Who Fans brought up how "First of all, he's had plenty of time to rehearse and learn it so it's not off of his hearts... and second of all, it proves that the Human race is s*** and would try and nuke itself."
Yeah, I just thought it was for comic effect and to reference similar comments in The Day of the Doctor, or whatever the 50th was called. A wee bit of overthinking going on here maybe?
This feels like an episode built around that amazing speech
Just so you know - I’m pretty sure it was purposely made for Zygons to find the box as a trap to make them think hence the body print
While I agree with most of your criticisms about the two-parter, I really liked seeing Jenna Coleman play the villain, and Osgood getting treated as the "substitute companion" for the story.
As far as I remember, those two things were enough of a fun change-up for me to forgive most of the story's other problems.
It's topical, it's hopeful (any war story whose climactic moment is a conversation has to be that) and it arguably managed to be fun to watch too. It's not a perfect story but I think it was still one of my favourites that season.
And I always felt like "the last 15 times" line was meant as an in-universe joke, and not something that actually happened... but that's just my interpretation, only really based on it being such a coincidentally round number.
The speech in this episode is what really sold Capaldi as the Doctor for me, I liked him already but with that “sit down and talk” moment he shot up to my second favourite Doctor (Out of the ones I’ve seen)
Why is the doctor calling Bonnie, Zygela? He was always trying to get under her skin by mocking her. 10 did that all the time to kind of take the villain out of his zone and make the enemy think. 12 does it every single time he talks to her. It was pretty clear it was to get under Bonnie's skin and he even says he almost got the payoff for it right before she does change her mind.
If I remember correctly this episode aired very soon after the Manchester attacks in the UK and that speech felt incredibly poignant at the time
The Manchester attack happened in 2017, I think you might be thinking of the Paris attack that happened a week after this episode.
Part two was a step-up from Part One since it all felt like it was slowly but surely building up to its crucial climax, which is still one of Capaldi's finest moments as the Doctor. Out of all the Doctors, I truly believe Twelve has the most profound speeches and lines, which really sees how torn apart he really is and yet he manages to have a such a love for everyone and it's honestly beautiful to watch and listen to. It's also amazing how very relevant and topical this is given our current climate; everyone always demands justice in this world, everyone wants to revolt against the corrupt establishment, but human history is an endless series of revolts against establishments, and those revolts create new establishments, which will, before long, be revolted against. By far one of this show's greatest moments and a great story in its own right, which is more than could be said of the next episode...
At the time I thought Zygella was her real name. Tbh honest I'm still not sure why she called herself Bonny.
That’s presumably her given name. Shows how far removed she is from OG Zygon culture.
And this may be a weird point but hearing the noises in the background was nice, proves that CZcamsrs are human when you can hearing plates being moved in the background.
Reality viewing with actual reality going on. It's refreshing.
Same here! It's healthy for viewers to be reminded that creators have a life outside of their content.
Given that this is after the dream crabs, I just assumed the previous experience gave her the ability to fight off those in her dream when she becomes aware. The fact the doctor has enough confidence to send the Zygon to her and him bro h confident enough in her tells me that.
I haven't rewatched it lately, but I think it's a combination of Clara having experienced the Dream Crabs (and thus she catches on to the whole dreamscape faster than someone who hadn't would) and her overall personality that lets her influence Bonnie.
Companions are special. That's both implicit in their role and sometimes explicit in that there are times when their having traveled with the Doctor and absorbed Artron Energy in the process means their biology reacts to something in a way that a normal human's wouldn't. Rose and Mickey being able to wake up the Genesis Arc for instance, and that time in Torchwood where the villains of the week wanted Martha because she'd been subtly altered by time travel.
I can suspend my disbelief on Clara influencing Bonnie because she's a Companion in her 3rd season. She's been around the block enough times to have tricks that a normal human wouldn't have, and it could work with any long-running companions, especially if they had experience with being trapped in a dreamscape.
At the end, doesn't the Doctor imply that the Zygons had Clara for a month, rather than the day or so that she thinks they had her? That would suggest that the fifteen confrontations all took place in the same crisis, and we could be seeing the final and most escalated version... and it might be why the locals don't care when the Zygon gets revealed. If it's happened fourteen times already in the last month, the fifteenth isn't going to get a reaction.
How could she control bonnie’s form you ask, in missy’s words she is a control freak.
In all seriousness i agree, but i still love clara
I'm not too sure about the speech myself. It's trying too hard, it's inorganic.
_"You don't understand."_ What? What motivated Bonny to say this? The only reason it's there is to trigger the next part of Peter's speech.
There were clearly many separate ideas Harness wanted to explore in this speech, with Bonny and Kate acting as the connecting tissue, jumping between different topics. I like that conceptually, just don't think he did it particularly well. They just say things to prompt what the Doctor will say next. In the climax of the story, everyone stops being characters and starts being lines. Just lines. I can see the writer's hands, and they're pulling me out of the scene.
@Najawin - *voice of Agatha Christie* "I think I understood _some_ of those words. Enough to know you're completely mad."
I can't tell if you're disagreeing me, but if I've reached the point where I'm quoting a Roberts script then you've won already.
@Najawin - yeah, the show's left wing enough most of the time. There are exceptions, but they're rare...well, until as of late.
I always considered the 15 times reference to being that Kate helped create it and had to have her mind wiped throughout, and her recurring issue with it was the boxes being empty.
I think it's kinda weird that you're singling out this episode for Twelve using a nickname, given that that's an established habit of his. It's weird that he's focusing on her species, sure, but it's not strange in itself.
Also, I interpreted the fifteen times thing as meaning that the Doctor, Kate and Bonnie had had their conversation fifteen times that day, and he was resetting it until he got a favourable outcome.
re: the "Clara Oswald got in your head" thing, it would be weird if he went "my companion got in your head," Bonnie only *knows* Clara and it would be weird to just refer to some nebulous companion archetype
I still hate that moment where Clara stops him from using the Moment. Like if it was just a matter of "well just don't do it" the Doctor would have taken that option. He decided to use the Moment because the only other option was to let the Time War tear the universe apart. If it was just a matter of "do something else" he'd have done it. He spent the entire lifetime of a regeneration (several hundred years) fighting that war. He couldn't find a way to end the war other than the Moment.
And that's all extremely cheapened by the fact that the solution that they eventually came up with was super easy and not just the Doctor, but literally any time lord with a Tardis could have employed and no one bothered.
I don't mind the speech being done 15 times, since Peter plays the scene overly-theatrically, almost rehearsed. This justifies that, otherwise it would bother me.8
It does also comment on the eternal cycle of war...except the point of the speech is to break that cycle with words alone?? The mind-wipe thing is very clever, very smart, very Steven. I imagine the speech was Harness' and the mind-wipe twist Moffat's. There's a thematic disconnect between the two.
Prepare for a comment that is basically me gushing about Capaldi's big speech. That moment is gold. I love it a lot. You are hanging on every single word that Capaldi says and feelings every single emotion. I mean of all the Nu Who doctors he is the most veteran and as much as i love the others i totally feel only Capaldi could handle a scene like this. You can just see all those years of acting shine through. The whole scene is just utter perfection to me. He is oozing emotion from every cell. The delivery is amazing. I remember watching it first time around and i was just transfixed and so were my mum and brother who were watching it with me. My brother would normally be messing around on his phone or something but he wasn't for this scene. We all sat up and payed attention and hung on Capaldi's every word. I almost forgot how to breathe during the scene and after it i stood up and clapped. What for me as well added weight to that scene was that the week after that episode broadcast the terrorist attack in Paris happened. When i saw the coverage on the news the scene just flashed back into my head and those words were ringing in my ears. Those words in that speech will always be relevant because of all the terror and destruction that happens. Honestly that scene for me is one of the best moments in Nu Who and and in Capaldi's tenure. it is just amazing. i could gush about it for ages. and apparently Capaldi was a one take wonder and did that whole scene perfectly in one take. Proof of how amazing he is. Urgh i love that scene so much.
they way ive always thought of the zygella thing was i just thought thats what a female zygon was called, like lion --> lioness.
I am pretty sure the "zygella" reference is the Doctor comparing her to Nigella Lawson (British Celebrity Cook and Coleman looks a little similar), but not sure why tho - sounds like a Moffat gag!
A gag that doesn't really work imo
I'm not sure if that's the case because they don't look anything alike lol
Jenna looks completely different to Nigella.
Yeh that's why i always thought he calls her 'zygella', cus nigella lawson is famously good looking and so is jenna? i always got that impression that's why it was in the script
@@bananasaregood8655 possibly. Jenna is well known for her beauty too so that might be the reason
Whatever the reason its still a weird line
He just meant he used the memory wipe 15 times. That makes more sense to me anyway.
The body print is for the access to the archives. And the doctor always wanted them to get into the archives, it is why he hides the Osgood boxes in the archives. He is making it seem like Bonnie has to work at getting to where he is leading her/Zygons.
And you are forgetting that this is the 12th time that the Doctor has had to go through this very scenario, and I imagine he is changing things after each time he had to wipe all their memories, each time updating what he learned the time before, until he finally gets the desired result of the enemies changing their minds. In the end, he does not wipe Bonnie's mind this time, but he does Kate and the others. All the other times, he wiped their minds so it was starting over and over and over, I imagine, like Groundhog Day.
In my humble opinion
The 15 times might have been during day of the doctor. Because they had to keep resetting stuff every time they threatened each other
One of the reasons this hits perfectly with Peter Capaldi specifically is the reason I was excited by the prospect of Malcolm Tucker playing the Doctor in the first place: his trademark smartmouthed (and foul-mouthed) ferocity.
Not only was it perfect inversion of Malcolm Tucker, who was pretty much a warmonger, it also gave Capaldi something worth channelling that same ferocity for.
Malcolm Tucker wasn't a warmonger. He was a man with fairly noble goals, but who was trapped in a system where the only way of attaining those goals was acting like a total dickhead.
Weirdly I had forgotten about the “last 15 times” line.
I preformed this speech on my high school speech/debate team.
Just sit on that for a moment. Six days after this episode broadcast and this speech was show. 6 days after. This episode was shown on a Saturday so the following Friday. 6 days. We see on the news a real life reason why this speech exists. A real world moment, an atrocity that prove why this speech is and always will be relevant. 6 days. This speech was way ahead of it's time. Think of 2017 as well. Two attacks in London and one in Manchester. This speech was something else. It is and always will be pure gold.
Clara actually wasn't the reason The Doctor didn't use the Moment, The moment's Bad Wolf interface (Billie Piper) did.
Let's be fair, it was both. Watching back all of new who it makes sense cause most of the main companions have a "completely change the morality of the doctor days after meeting him, moments" pardon the pun
I never quite understood how 20 million Zygons took on human forms. Were they copying actual people or were they adopting unique human identities? If they were taking on existing forms, what happened to those 20 million people?
That’s actually a decent question since we never see a Zygon take on a “unique” form that isn’t a copy.
@@CouncilofGeeks Isnt it also nice that a single person can start a revolution and a single person can end it? With just a phone call?
"So, let me ask you a question about this brave new world of yours. When you've killed all the bad guys, and it's all perfect and just and fair, when you have finally got it exactly the way you want it, what are you going to do with the people like you? The troublemakers.
How are you going to protect your glorious revolution from the next one?"
I think you've mis-understood the 15 times line. I think the events in the room have been played out 15 times, not the events of the whole story.
Honestly I think this is one of the best two parters
I agree, that speech is wonderful. A few thoughts:
- We assume that the doctor was telling the truth when he said ‘15 times’, which yes, bugs me too. But the doctor has been known to... exaggerate, on occasion, so I’m not taking it at face value.
- I find the part with the forcibly unmasked zygon early on to be very powerful, just seeing how he feels from being unmasked and forced to stand out in a community where he wants to fit in. There’s a lot to unpack there.
- For important companions: In the series 2 finales, the doc burned up a sun just to say goodbye to rose, killing potentially billions of lifeforms he was unaware of. After she literally turned into a god in the series 1 finale to destroy the Daleks. Then Donna literally became ‘the most important person in the universe’. We had that line repeated over and over to us in the series 4 finale. Amy saved the doctor’s life a bunch of times, more than any other companion (If you only count Name of the Doctor as one time), and is River’s mom, which is also huge to the doctor’s life. And now Clara is super important too - I don’t think this is really out of the ordinary at all.
- I endeavour to change your mind about Hell Bent, as we get closer
you nailed the companion complaint on the head... i think its a very flawed argument when its only directed at clara
So a couple of things about your companion comparisons:
1) I know he said "I'm burning up a sun just to say goodbye" but at no point does he say that he initiated the supernova, only that he was in orbit around one. I always took it to mean he found one and was just being flowery about the lengths he went to.
2) Rose and Donna become immensely important for basically one day. Because of the way that Clara is brought into the show and then scattered across the Doctor's timeline, she's immensely important from pretty much the get go, and becomes immensely important even beyond her time actually traveling with the Doctor. While I would never claim that the show doesn't big up Rose or Amy or Donna or River, it's not simply with the same degree of prevalence and persistence that it is with Clara. It's like how I've said that I enjoy the "look me up" moment and the "I am talking!" speeches that bank on the Doctor's reputation, but I don't like his reputation being so massive that's he's basically a legendary figure across all of time and space. The scale and scope can take a good or acceptable idea and turn it sour.
3) Don't hold your breath on Hell Bent.
@Najawin since you’re so determined to debunk the reasons I give for not liking Clara’s arc, why do YOU think I don’t like it?
@@CouncilofGeeks - he thinks you misunderstand it because you're not intelligent enou- ah, er _literate_ enough to get it.
I've gone into why I don't like Series 7 or Clara before, but basically I feel that writing a bad series arc, or bad character cannot be justified by saying "I'm criticising bad arcs and characters." I had much rather see a _good_ arc than watch a visual essay and demonstration of bad one. That's what a lot of Steven's stories are to me. Essays. Brilliant, well-articulated essays. But I don't come to Who for essays, Najawin does - amongst other things - and that's okay too.
@Najawin even if I accept that, given the number of people who also don’t like Clara and/or Hell Bent I’d still call that a failure of execution if so much of your audience doesn’t understand what you’re doing.
It’s like telling a joke, and nobody laughs, so you explain the joke and they go “oh, that’s clever,” but if they didn’t laugh the first time then you still did something wrong.
Frankly there attempts to make her more important made her boring.
Oh yeah, the episode that started the (semi) on running joke of the Doctor's Browser History...
I know some people think that gets annoying but I still find it hilarious 😂
Apart from Zygella/Nigella (see below), another bit of British TV trivia is that the line "I mean that most sincerely" was the catchphrase of Hughie Green, who fronted the hugely popular game and talent shows _Double Your Money_ and _Opportunity Knocks_ between the 1950s and 70s.
6:41 So maybe I can give a bit of context to the Zygella joke as if you’re not from the UK I get why it would seem a bit random. In the UK we have a TV chef called Nigella Lawson (everyone just refers to her as “Nigella”) who Bonnie is giving similar vibes to. It’s a bit of a throwaway joke but i see your point when it’s taken out of context.
Ok that helps a little. Still not sure it works as a joke.
@@CouncilofGeeks yeah it’s not that funny even with the context to be fair
Yeah definitely just a quick nickname thrown out by the Doctor. Nothing that great about knowing the context.
Beat me to it. I immediately saw it as a pun on "Nigella" from the get-go (hence the "j" sound in the middle, as opposed to a hard "g" as in Zygon). Nigella is a big name in the UK, probably the most famous woman chef currently on British TV.
@@dubbingsync Moffett already had this kind of mixing names joke in the other show Sherlock, where the inspector's name always was the wrong one (Greg was it)
My guess is, the 15 times thing was that Kate asked the Doctor why the boxes are just decoys.
Zygela was a pun and reference to a famous UK chef...
Took me less than a minute to find that out. So while I agree you have every right to ask for an explanation as to why it was there, I do think you put the cart before the horse.
I would imagine zygella is a nickname like how Wolverine called professor X 'wheels' in that same context from the first X-Men film. Bit of a logic issue but doctor who's not one for logic.
I'm going to be honest, I don't even see how this could be construed as offensive. Normally when I don't think something is offensive, but someone else does, I can at least understand why they think that way. But here, I really don't understand.
This is a failing on my own part, of course. I really need this explained to me so I can properly judge whether I agree with it. (My prior is that I won't, but I'm not arrogant enough that I'll automatically disagree with a position without even understanding it first. That's the way of the flat earthers and the anti-vaxxers.)
I took it as a bit of name play on Nigella Lawson (the TV cook). Nothing more than something for an audience reference and not plot related, beyond being one of the many nicknames he gives over his run, instead of using their real name.
@@lwaves good theory. I seem to remember a doctor who character who went by an -igella in the classic era of doctor who. Since Moffatt is a huge whovian maybe he was trying to go back to the old days with that reference. I think it was from the Tom Baker era.
@@alexpotts6520 I don't see it as offensive either. I see how it could be construed as that but it's a stretch that a name could be offensive, deminishing yes but not offensive to the character. Maybe the doctor was trying to do a zygon sounding name for a girl with the Ella at the end being a reference to old b movie sci fi names.
@@alexpotts6520
I think Nathaniel is put off by it simply because it reminds them of trans/NB people being called by their deadname.
The two are not comparable, IMHO, but that’s what I think is going on.
The doctor gives people wrong names all the time, idk I'd have to rewatch the episode but I don't know what's different about this instance. I do feel like I need to rewatch it seen as I never even noticed that "15 times" comment
Decided to leave some of my thoughts here after a rewatch. In first episode, they point out that Osgood's connection was way stronger then usual, they even say "they WAS The Treaty". And we see how even standart connection allowed Clara ti affect Bonny. So, since zygon-Osgood was STRONGLY linked with human-Osgood for a long time, it raises the question: how well can zygon distinguish itself from his image? And same question for human, actually. So, when she answers "Osgood" to "Who are you?", I feel that she means that there is no difference between them. I actually saw similar lines in some book about shapeshifters, how they adopt not just form, but the way of thinking. You could even compare it with cops under cover, or actors lost in the role. And that's why my answer to "Who survived and later connected with Bonny?" is "Both could, because they are both Osgood". Not sure if it makes sense, but for me it's headcanon.
The "five rounds rapid" line is a reference to the Classic Who story "The Daemons":
The Brigadier pointing at an alien: Chap with the wings there. Five rounds rapid.
This is the only reason a big thing is made of it.
I loved Capaldi's speech but thought he went over the top as well. On the subject of Clara controlling Bonnie and being soooo special??? Well she did figure out what the statue dust was about in Day of the Doctor before any of the science boffins didn't she! Wot a clever girl!!!! Loved Bonnie as such a cool villain.
Really like it, theres something about series 9 minus the finale that i absolutely love more than anything post season 5
BECAUSE IT'S NOT A GAME, KATE
gets me every time goddamn
I was always a bit iffy about Capaldi as the Doctor. I knew he was probably the single most talented actor to take on the roll in all 50+ Years of Doctor Who, and he always had me interested, but the show as a whole felt on the decline for me. However, this episode made me realise that as long as the Actor/Actress holding the main character just melts into the role, I can watch the show no matter what. Capaldi is brilliant and I truely miss him as the Doctor.
You might say that it was rose and Clara that got in his head
I think the doctor calling her zygella is just his way like he called the guy last two parter lofty. I also want to say it was to antagonise her and expose how childish she was being like a child who gets annoyed being called a name. I also take the 15 times part as the doctor tried to convince them and it took him many times to do it and the point was to get bonnie to stand down willingly. Like bonnie tried to use the box and it was empty so they did the kind wipe thing and then the doctor tried again and again till it worked
I always thought that the Doctor called Bonnie ‘Zygella’ all the time was in a reference to her cooking up trouble like ‘Nigella’ Lawson. Or that she known for being a bit sexy... Dark haired maybe... Likes wearing red...
I like this ep. But leaves the taste that Clara is over powered/ most important person/ extra special etc . Very Steve Moffat. Maybe if the Doctor had taught her to train her mind against attack. Given how many aliens have that capability or the tech too. While bonnie was interrogating her maybe Clara has a flash back to the doctor and her in the Tardis training.
I agree that "the last 15 times" line dramatically undermines all that went before. I think it's just another example of something I've highlighted a lot in response to the Capaldi run - Moffatt's a comedy writer at heart and just can't let (what he thinks is) a good line go. The Zygella line and running joke about browser history are other examples. If challenged, I think they'd say that by letting Bonnie retain her memory of events the Doctor is doing something different this time, but 15 times still seems high. The joke probably works with the "last 3 times" or even "last time". Ultimately it feels like yielding to the temptation to believe every scene needs a punchline.
I can see why everyone gets so worked up about how special Clara is built up to be. I'm not sure it's actually what was intended, and there are a lot of factors in play that unintentionally emphasise the point. These factors include - the open sore that Hell Bent was always going to be; Heaven Sent being so good we were always going to be disappointed by what followed, Clara being the next companion after two of the most beloved we've had, the first two versions of Clara being genuinely extraordinary in their own ways such that a relatively normal, modern-day Clara ends up being less interesting, Clara's back story being so much a part of her first season that she doesn't always feel like a character at all, and an accident of timing that placed Clara at the centre of the Day of the Doctor making her a key part of a really important story. I suspect that she'll be one of those "better than I remembered them being" characters as time passes and some of the baggage from the original run fades.
I'm not saying Moffatt shouldn't have anticipated this. The information was available to him at the time. I just don't think he meant to imply she was the most important companion ever, he just ended up doing that. I think if you asked Moffatt who the most important companion is from the Doctor's point of view he'd say "the current one; always the current one whoever that is". You can even argue that the circumstances of Clara's death were part of Moffatt telling us that she's not that special, but she thinks she is. The Clara Oswald got in your head line in the speech does seem contrary to that point, but if Clara had left when originally intended and we'd got this episode with a new companion that line wouldn't be there. The Doctor is talking to Clara as well as Bonnie at that moment. It allows him a moment of tenderness that he'd find uncomfortable if the real Clara was standing in front of him. I don't think the intent is for us to believe he thinks that only Clara could have stopped him; even Moff would accept that at the very least Rose, Donna and Amy were all capable of making him stop and think in that way.
Full disclosure - the Clara is special stuff never bothered me at the time, but I do recall starting to lose patience with the extent to which RTD seemed to be in love with Rose (and to think that we should also be). Maybe I found that more glaring because the increased focus on the companion has been a feature of NuWho and I was just more accustomed to it by the time Clara came along. And that feeling has faded over time - for me Rose is one of those "better than I remembered them being" characters. I was also guilty of pre-judging Rose because I was underwhelmed by what looked at the time like stunt casting but proved to by anything but. I've subsequently been pleasantly astonished by performances from Catherine Tait, Bernard Cribbins, Matt Lucas and Bradley Walsh and recognise that the days have passed when the show will cast a name regardless of their acting talent. I'm sure they love landing big names, but I trust them to only go there for people who can genuinely act.
My thoughts on why the Doctor calls Bonnie "Zygella" is meant to be a comparison to Cinderella. I think, could be wrong tho
The Clara getting in your head line made me so grouchy, but I’m willing to forgive every weird thing in this episode for the speech. Holy cow, that was good
I feel like Clara having the amount of influence on Bonnie that she has does feel a bit like plot convenience, but I attribute it to her being a bit more clever from being around the Doctor. You could make the same argument for Bill being able to fight the Monk's brainwashing or her cyber conversion in the next series. Although, I know you say that part of why it annoys you is because of how it contributes to the greater problem of Clara being made too important, but I feel that the way Clara is bigged up isn't an attempt to objectively say that "She's amazing and all other companions pale in comparison." I feel that the whole arc is more about Clara and the Doctor's relationship than just Clara as a person. It's about the Doctor being in a more vulnerable place than any of his other incarnations because he's questioning his morality and how that affects his sense of identity, so he clings to his relationship with his companion moreso than ever before until it balloons into an unhealthy obsession.
Exactly. The companions always seem to be able to do things other people can't, especially in the new series. They just seem 'the most special', because they're the current companion. 🤷
I'm not sure the Doctor's forgiveness of Bonnie does 'disarm' her into retreating from her entrenched position. The Earth isn't his world. It's not his place to forgive or not forgive and he's not sticking around to see that Humanity does. Because very soon he's going to fly off again in the box and leave both sides to pick up the pieces. Will the Humans forgive Bonnie? I suspect many millions of them would not. It's a time bomb waiting to explode, potentially.
Personally I love the last 15 times line - it's not saying that the Doctor doesn't change anything, it's saying that no matter how hard, how unlikely the Doctor has to believe that the peace is possible.
I literally teared up at the Doctor's speech in this episode. Because The Doctor is right. War is a vicious cycle. It's easy to start a war, it's hard to make peace.
The design of the Zygons is actually really really ugly and I love it
I think the kate scene was just so she could quote her dad.
"The last 15 times" i took to mean a sort of groundhog day senario, although im not sure when each attempt starts.
"Inside my head" seems ok to me as it was clara who was with him at that "moment", moment and also in bonnies head.
"I mean that most sincerely " and " open the box" was Capaldi impersonating hughie green the host of take your pick. A tv show were people open boxes.
This episode gives major "The episode that only has 5 minutes going for" vibes. One thing, one scene, of it is majestic. The other 40 minutes are clown festival.
have you seen the terror of the zygons? just curious
Not yet.
@@CouncilofGeeks doesn't really matter, its pretty average, and doesn't really add that much to this episode
Kate shooting the Zygon was probably just an excuse for her to say "Five rounds rapid" which was a command her father, the Brigadier, gave in "The Dæmons" (also the title of Nicholas Courtney's autobiography).
Would you consider doing a mini review of the Daleks! series, I’d love to seee your thoughts on it
I’d like to but I’m so buried in other stuff that I really don’t know right now.
Interesting point. In the same way that having the Doctor be an idiot who goes around in a box, the companion serves a function that's largely the same in many stories. I like that.
When I heard the 15 times thing I thought that they meant they had been in that room for a long time.
There are so many moments in The Doctor's diatribe where I wanted Bonnie to slap the button while looking him right in the eye.
The episode smashes it. It ties up the loose ends from the first episode and broadly ignores the fluff and then Capaldi knocks it out the park in a stunning speech which is smart, insightful and perfectly played. Clara is good in this episode and Kate is good but her "surprise"reveal and explanation was hilarious and i think was only shown to give a nod back to one of the brigs lines from the classic series!!! Osgood is always good, wish she would come back.
Clara being powerful is fine, i don't see the issue. She is a brilliant actress and handles whatever the series throws at her. Love Clara and i love Clara's theme! love that music.
i think you are overthinking the thing with the guy who was filmed transforming, the cops didn't find him because...plot. its fine.
The speech would save any episode but the episode is actually pretty good on its own, better than part one.
The speech didnt go on too long and when he "goes to 11" it works as you can hear the emotion, the pain in his voice. Spectacular.
The last 15 times line for me shows how hard it is to "win" against terrorism and maybe this is one where it works....
I think if he said 2 or 3 times it would be better but its a small gripe.
with the 15 times i think that it was 15 times he tried to get through to bonnie and not quite got there and started again
He just had to wipe fifteenn people's memories on sperate occasions; that doesn't mean it collapsed. It's more likely that a couple people people have tried to steal the box. It's also possible he was joking.
The Zygella/ Hughie Green references are interesting in light of a recent interview with Richard Curtis in the Guardian.
“I hope we don’t get entirely accessible to everybody else,” says Curtis. “Americans don’t adapt for us. Every film you watch set in New York has 15 references to things that you don’t understand, and it’s not offensive. We love their films.”
For what it's worth, just as you weren't upset with 'Zygella' at the time, I don't think the BBC would accept this renaming any more for the same reasons.
You say EVERYTHING in my head where Clara is concerned 😂
Kate’s “five rounds rapid” reveal makes even less sense when you realise that the zygon apparently didn’t think of taking her weapon off her to avoid that exact scenario. I mean, it was masquerading as an armed police officer , it wouldn’t even be suspicious to ask a stranger to drop her weapon.
So you think Clara was becoming a bit of a Mary Sue?
Yes and no. Yes because... yeah a bit, no because she gets cocky from it and it gets her killed. But then there’s Hell Bent. So who even knows?
Yessss! I needed this Who Snack today. Thanks!
Regarding radicalisation, the kuvira from korra did that pretty well, getting her to break down. I mean its the doctor, in real life you cant get them ler get just away, if treat them as human people needing compassion. Guess zygon people.
I tend to take the "last 15 times" line as the Doctor being flippant rather than the situation literally having happened 15 times before.
To me the "15 times" fits, although exaggerated. History repeats itself. It may look a little different or be a little better each time, but when we look at mankind's history, it tends to repeat a lot of the same mistakes.
Could also just been the Doctor messing with Kate lol
The Zygella thing bothered me when I first watched it and I think you've accurately pointed out why. The only explanation I could think of for why it's there is that maybe it's the Doctor trying to put Bonnie in the shoes of the people whom she's "outed" as Zygons and taken their identities from? I agree that it's dick-ish and uncharacteristically vindictive for the Doctor, though.
Also, my interpretation of the "15 times" line was always that he delivered the same speech 15 times that same day until Bonnie and Kate agreed to stand down, not that the crisis had happened 15 times. Maybe a few of those times one of them pressed the button and found out it did nothing, so the Doctor had to start over--something along those lines.
This episode is a 5/10 with a 10/10 speech. The rest of the episode is fine, but that speech kills it!
While I get what you mean about the speech and Bonnie and why you like it so much, I have a slight issue with it. The problem for me is how everyone forgave Bonnie after everything she did and all the people and Zygons she got killed. For me, there's a line where you just can't forgive people for what they've done. I mean, SO MANY people were affected by what she did. Do they get a say in forgiving her or not? Maybe it's just me, but it just bugs me. I also thought she agreed too easily, given her conviction and everything. Again, I get what you meant by radicalisation and how it affects people, but it just felt a touch too easy for me. I feel like there should have been another character who was more into the idea of war or something like that. Again, maybe it's just me. Glad you like it though. In the end, it's just minor issues with the episode. :)
Yeah "15 times" thing is upsetting in a reality thing but works for the metaphor saying it this great speech where the radical got the point doesn't end the cycle there will always something to fight over, sadly. This solution is still less world ending though
I suspect Zygella is a pun on Nigella Lawson, the journalist and TV chef. It's not really politically incorrect, I suspect - it's just not very funny.
I like the points you made about radicalization. But i have to wonder, if Bonnie and her followers goal was to be able to live as their true selfs. Why didnt the doctor offer to take them to a planet where they could do that?
Well, extremist propaganda is like that. It is full of lies. It's obviously not what Truth or Consequences wanted. They wanted to colonise Earth at the expense of humans.
@@alexpotts6520 Maybe, but i still think its strange that the doctor never offered it.
Why does everybody always forget that Clara is the Companion that was hand-picked by Missy to mess up the Doctor?
Yeah but for me that’s deciding which awful trope I’m dealing with: the super special wonder character trope, or the villain who would have to be clairvoyant with the 100% accuracy for their “plan” to work and yet still always loses.