Getting into jazz and the standards initially made me put away the guitar for a few years in frustration: I realized that my '60's rock/pop background in no way prepared me for what was happening in more harmonically complex music; too, I didn't really understand the guitar's role. Finally, my curiosity won out and I began looking further into theory, as I could by then relate the little I'd picked up to the vast number of standards I'd become familiar with just as a listener. I realized I was always attracted to what I would just call generally "tension chords" and also bass notes that weren't the root. I'd pick up a chord I liked in one song, and then recognize it in another. At first, I just used the "hunt and peck" system with the guitar, not having the faintest idea what the chord was called. Now I've learned at least enough to recognize more advanced chords by name. I think my process was backwards, but at least it's of some help now. ... What I always wonder is how so many of the composers of the great standards, many of whom weren't particularly skilled or knowledgeable instrumentalists (piano, primarily) were able to construct such sophisticated music!
Nice point! I've realized some years ago that practicing c - major scale on the piano is really useful - for some reason I was able to do all sorts of interesting melodic figures, patterns etc. that I wasn't able do on guitar. Piano is always really useful to understand music theory.
Very true! I try to learn a new song and chart it out pretty regularly. Open the real book to a random page and force yourself to work on whatever tune you land on. I actually have a spreadsheet of theory techniques (stuff for major chords, stuff for minor chords, stuff for tritones, little progressions, etc). I go through them and pick a couple to be my flavor of the moment.
I started out learning all this jazz theory but I was unable to apply it for quite a while because all my favorite players where way to advanced for me to play and my ears where not as sharp as they are now, got all kinds of books and transcriptions, slowly it all started to make sense to me
I really enjoyed this video. Great fundamental advice: Learn songs! That's why we play instruments, sing,etc. The theory understanding will come to those who are open to it and are willing to put in their time, but not at the expense of learning songs.
Jen's what can I say? again, you hit the nail right on the head this journey into jazz guitar has really helped me into thinking about what's going on and actually REVIVE with the freshness and thrill of playing guitar. I have been recently listening to some of my favorite Jazz songs including revisiting some hard rock/metal songs with a new freshness and awakening that I did not have before. Using Theory in this fresh new way actually depends my knowledge and appreciation of of what I thought was the ever-elusive Jazz Style thank you so much you've opened many doors for me psychologically for the guitar
I really like this one Jens. I play a lot of Sinatra, Torme I sing and try to sound like them but now I sound like me. But I play these songs in guitar friendly keys mostly. I learned to comp with big band shell voicings which help break it down to it's simplest form. I can't rely on charts too much as they're written for an arranger without a guitarist in mind. Being that I'm not a piano I've found my chord scales to be the Swiss Army Knife for what I need as also my ear which is quite good. Sometimes I even try the Jerry Reed route which is to find the bass line, then the melody. Everything else is just between. But now thanks to you I'm on the road to more improvisation.
There are so many ways I use the theory I've learned. I wish more of my knowledge would come from actual transcribing, than reading or watching one of you few really great teachers on YT. However, I mostly find ways to apply many of the things when I'm reading and playing through sheet music. Kind of verifying and looking out for occurences of all the concepts. Having learned a piece enough so that it stays in memory I'm always out for changing up the harmonic content behind the melody and seeing what other sounds I can get out of my favourite melodies and how voice leading or chord voicings impact my choices. I've been playing guitar for about 10 years, but I've come to enjoy the piano more for that kind of harmonic exploration, especially if I want more freedom in terms of voicing. Im much slower on piano, but I seem to play and listen more consciously. When looking out for sheet music to analyze I'm mostly interested how the vibe I like about a piece was created, but I'm doing this mostly for videogame music, which has taught me a lot about things like modal interchange and inspiring cases of using modes. Through videogame music and jazz I learned that it's a lot about the voicings, and even the weirdest melody or chord can be played in many pleasant ways, and this was huge for me. Wish I'd be getting more into arpeggios the way you play them and soloing, but I seem to be drawn much more to chordal stuff and movement, and rather simplistic lead movements.
Yeah I know. been doing that. It is a gradual process. Thebasics of theory came easy, and now I am assimilating it using many songs and it is becoming a habit and enjoyable addiction. For instance when I play chords of a song I also try to play the melody of the lyrics and find which notes were sung for each chord.
I hurt my shoulder in a mountain bike crash and it was very painful to play the guitar for 5 moths and I just studied music theory and really got into it again. I studied Jazz classes and very uptight classical classes to about the upper 300s level college courses. Now I am guilty of not playing and studying too much but I am fixing that. My playing is bad but I manage to apply some cool things this last week. Application of theory is the reason for theory.
Thanks! So often I get asked about theory stuff and if I ask if they know any songs where it is in then it is always no 🙂I think it's important to realize that a jazz song is not a Mahler Symphony.
I tend to improvise a lot these days, trying to figure out keys and melodies of new songs I haven't played yet by ear. I usually start by closing my eyes, scrolling through various playlists and randomly clicking play. I start with finding the key, then the chords or melody depending what genre it is. Currently the genres I'm working on range from prog metal to fusion to jazz up to EDM and country. I analyze what is going on in terms of the chord progression as well as how the notes in the melody relate to the present chord, rather than the overall key. So I'm always thinking intervals related to the chord that is played at the moment to be able to use different scales and get out of the key momentarily. Kinda treating them like static chords at times when just noodling around, exploring sounds with chromatics etc. This is especially doable when chords are held longer and aren't changed as frequently as in songs like Giant Steps. Besides that Iam always looking to find new chord voicings by sound and then try to name them and try to come up with a progression where they sound good and make sense. Greetings from Germany
That sounds like great practice! don't forget to go really deep with some tunes so that you really hear that harmony and can recognize it in other pieces a lot easier. 👍🙂
Thanks for the reply Jens. Been really learning a lot from your videos. The tune I always go back to to try things, seems to be Blue bossa. It was my first standard really, which isn't too hard, but gives some room to work with.
You might want to think about looking for some standards with more interesting changes than Blue Bossa if you want to develop your language in terms of harmony :)
Jens Larsen I have a list of standards that I want to learn and expand upon, including Giant Steps, Donna Lee, Autumn Leaves and All the things you are. Any other songs you'd recommend for an intermediate level improviser?
Jens, I think the theory should be taught from the beginning and its not in most cases. You have to get it yourself if you can. I understand theory. It's the hearing part that's the problem. For instance, I am learning a Charlie Parker solo via tune Dizzy Atmosphere. There is a B7 chord that has the notes of a c#minor 7. The advanced stuff should be explained and taught early.
Yes it is much more difficult to hear which is why you have a better shot if it is already in the music you play. As for the Parker thing: C#m7 is not impossible on a B7, it's in the scale and you also have to remember that the Omnibook has a lot of mistakes and typos :)
Jens, wondering if you saw Troy Grady's video with Mike Stern he just released. 33 improv ideas. I think a brief video of a similar vein would be cool. Or in the very least it could be a way to see something you may have not talked about and maybe what other players are doing. And then it could go to individual videos for each and maybe that could be more of your traditional videos and vocabulary with that idea.
+Bradley Stroup ok, I didn't see it, though usually his videos include videos of the artist , transcriptions and multi camera shotsand editing. Everything he does is with a crew of 4 or 5 people. I make 4-5 videos per week on my own ☺️
Jens Larsen I think it was really cool on the approach. It was kind of like going to the gym for improv, where he wasn't just working one idea or concept. He was improvising pentatonics, then improvising arpeggios, then octaves, then diminished ideas, then quintal. So like a circuit training of different ideas. So, maybe not indepth like a mastering of one idea but a jack of all trades approach
+Bradley Stroup Now I did watch it. To me it's just an ad to sell access to the complete interview? It's just disguised as something else because of the title, that part is really clever ☺️
3:40 to 4:08 is sooo nice, Jens. For you, it must be very 'logical', wonderfully reasoning like you do, but for me those are eye-opening remarks. Thank you for that! (btw...what is that Capo doing in that Strat-type guitar behind you?) Makes me curious, haha! Thanks again for the vid.
Great! Thanks Toine! I am really happy that those two comparisons makes sense to somebody, I was doubting them a bit because they were so long, but also found it important! The capo is just hanging there so I know where it is (and I was wondering when people was going to ask, you are the first one to do so 😄)
I'm sorry about the Capo-question, asking in public...;-) Seems like you need stuff like that, haha! But I understand completely! Thanks Jens. You are way over my head most of the time but I like to keep on trying to understand the vids your posting. This one is great, because I get it..yeah!! Keep it up...
Another great lesson Jens! As you said best thing is to learn SONGS and use songs as a vehicle to teach yourself theory. Its easy to get caught up in "theory land" so to speak. Where you just learn about theory but learn to play no songs. A better way would be to list your favorite standards and analyze the melody and chord progression. This way you learn a song, and you learn theory! If you look at Joe Pass' instructional videos he mentions that he learned to play by playing songs. Most old school jazz guitarists learned this way. This is a video by Frank Vignola and Bucky Pizzarelli: czcams.com/video/zQ2wSpcnpVc/video.html start watching from the 1:00 mark. I REALLY RECOMMEND WATCHING THAT VIDEO (lol sorry for caps) And lets be honest, playing songs is what its all about. Somebody that can play 100 songs and knows no theory would be considered a better guitar player by most people than somebody that knows all the theory in the world but can't play any songs or can play only the intro to certain songs (Nothing else matters, Iron man, Stairway etc, damn I am guilty of this stuff). TLDR: Use songs as a vehicle to learn theory: A tune centric approach. Then you can use theory to analyze the song and next use your knowledge of scales, rhythms, arpeggios, quartal harmony etc to shape the song into your own style. But learn songs!
How do you study and apply theory? 🙂
Getting into jazz and the standards initially made me put away the guitar for a few years in frustration: I realized that my '60's rock/pop background in no way prepared me for what was happening in more harmonically complex music; too, I didn't really understand the guitar's role. Finally, my curiosity won out and I began looking further into theory, as I could by then relate the little I'd picked up to the vast number of standards I'd become familiar with just as a listener. I realized I was always attracted to what I would just call generally "tension chords" and also bass notes that weren't the root. I'd pick up a chord I liked in one song, and then recognize it in another. At first, I just used the "hunt and peck" system with the guitar, not having the faintest idea what the chord was called. Now I've learned at least enough to recognize more advanced chords by name. I think my process was backwards, but at least it's of some help now. ... What I always wonder is how so many of the composers of the great standards, many of whom weren't particularly skilled or knowledgeable instrumentalists (piano, primarily) were able to construct such sophisticated music!
I study and learn almost all music theory concepts on the piano first until I have a good grasp then I go to the guitar and work on it.
Nice point! I've realized some years ago that practicing c - major scale on the piano is really useful - for some reason I was able to do all sorts of interesting melodic figures, patterns etc. that I wasn't able do on guitar. Piano is always really useful to understand music theory.
Learning actual songs is my biggest weakness. I can practice scales, chords and arpeggios for hours then only spend 30mins playing All of Me.
Jens Larsen i’ll learn a progression from a favorite song and try to figure it out from scratch. And watching videos like this. Good stuff my dude
Yikes! The more I learn the more I see that there is soooo much more to learn. And the more i learn the more past lessons make sense. Thanks Jens!
Thank you Jume! I am glad you found it useful! 👍
Very true! I try to learn a new song and chart it out pretty regularly. Open the real book to a random page and force yourself to work on whatever tune you land on. I actually have a spreadsheet of theory techniques (stuff for major chords, stuff for minor chords, stuff for tritones, little progressions, etc). I go through them and pick a couple to be my flavor of the moment.
Sounds solid and structured! 👍🙂
I started out learning all this jazz theory but I was unable to apply it for quite a while because all my favorite players where way to advanced for me to play and my ears where not as sharp as they are now, got all kinds of books and transcriptions, slowly it all started to make sense to me
I think a lot of us took that route and it isn't so strange since it is easier to learn theory than ear training most of the time 🙂
I really enjoyed this video.
Great fundamental advice: Learn songs! That's why we play instruments, sing,etc.
The theory understanding will come to those who are open to it and are willing to put in their time, but not at the expense of learning songs.
Thanks Ian! That is indeed it! Glad you liked the video!
Jen's what can I say?
again,
you hit the nail right on the head
this journey into jazz guitar has really helped me into thinking about what's going on and actually REVIVE with the freshness and thrill of playing guitar.
I have been recently listening to some of my favorite Jazz songs including revisiting some hard rock/metal songs with a new freshness and awakening that I did not have before.
Using Theory in this fresh new way actually depends my knowledge and appreciation of of what I thought was the ever-elusive Jazz Style thank you so much you've opened many doors for me psychologically for the guitar
+ELITE COMBAT FITNESS CENTRAL That's great! It's always interesting how new knowledge can make things we already know fresh again ☺️
I really like this one Jens. I play a lot of Sinatra, Torme I sing and try to sound like them but now I sound like me. But I play these songs in guitar friendly keys mostly. I learned to comp with big band shell voicings which help break it down to it's simplest form. I can't rely on charts too much as they're written for an arranger without a guitarist in mind. Being that I'm not a piano I've found my chord scales to be the Swiss Army Knife for what I need as also my ear which is quite good. Sometimes I even try the Jerry Reed route which is to find the bass line, then the melody. Everything else is just between. But now thanks to you I'm on the road to more improvisation.
Wow! That's great Tom! Glad you really use it to make music!
There are so many ways I use the theory I've learned. I wish more of my knowledge would come from actual transcribing, than reading or watching one of you few really great teachers on YT. However, I mostly find ways to apply many of the things when I'm reading and playing through sheet music. Kind of verifying and looking out for occurences of all the concepts.
Having learned a piece enough so that it stays in memory I'm always out for changing up the harmonic content behind the melody and seeing what other sounds I can get out of my favourite melodies and how voice leading or chord voicings impact my choices. I've been playing guitar for about 10 years, but I've come to enjoy the piano more for that kind of harmonic exploration, especially if I want more freedom in terms of voicing. Im much slower on piano, but I seem to play and listen more consciously.
When looking out for sheet music to analyze I'm mostly interested how the vibe I like about a piece was created, but I'm doing this mostly for videogame music, which has taught me a lot about things like modal interchange and inspiring cases of using modes. Through videogame music and jazz I learned that it's a lot about the voicings, and even the weirdest melody or chord can be played in many pleasant ways, and this was huge for me.
Wish I'd be getting more into arpeggios the way you play them and soloing, but I seem to be drawn much more to chordal stuff and movement, and rather simplistic lead movements.
Don't worry about how you learn and be happy that you use it! There is nothing wrong with that! 🙂
Yeah I know. been doing that. It is a gradual process. Thebasics of theory came easy, and now I am assimilating it using many songs and it is becoming a habit and enjoyable addiction. For instance when I play chords of a song I also try to play the melody of the lyrics and find which notes were sung for each chord.
That is so spot on as an approach to learning tunes! Keep doing that!
I hurt my shoulder in a mountain bike crash and it was very painful to play the guitar for 5 moths and I just studied music theory and really got into it again. I studied Jazz classes and very uptight classical classes to about the upper 300s level college courses. Now I am guilty of not playing and studying too much but I am fixing that. My playing is bad but I manage to apply some cool things this last week. Application of theory is the reason for theory.
Spot on! "Application of theory is the reason for theory." Glad your shoulder got better!
I like your basic point the theory has to be appropriate for the song. Even blues is different then say bird blues.
Thanks! So often I get asked about theory stuff and if I ask if they know any songs where it is in then it is always no 🙂I think it's important to realize that a jazz song is not a Mahler Symphony.
I tend to improvise a lot these days, trying to figure out keys and melodies of new songs I haven't played yet by ear. I usually start by closing my eyes, scrolling through various playlists and randomly clicking play. I start with finding the key, then the chords or melody depending what genre it is. Currently the genres I'm working on range from prog metal to fusion to jazz up to EDM and country. I analyze what is going on in terms of the chord progression as well as how the notes in the melody relate to the present chord, rather than the overall key. So I'm always thinking intervals related to the chord that is played at the moment to be able to use different scales and get out of the key momentarily. Kinda treating them like static chords at times when just noodling around, exploring sounds with chromatics etc. This is especially doable when chords are held longer and aren't changed as frequently as in songs like Giant Steps.
Besides that Iam always looking to find new chord voicings by sound and then try to name them and try to come up with a progression where they sound good and make sense.
Greetings from Germany
That sounds like great practice! don't forget to go really deep with some tunes so that you really hear that harmony and can recognize it in other pieces a lot easier. 👍🙂
Thanks for the reply Jens. Been really learning a lot from your videos. The tune I always go back to to try things, seems to be Blue bossa. It was my first standard really, which isn't too hard, but gives some room to work with.
You might want to think about looking for some standards with more interesting changes than Blue Bossa if you want to develop your language in terms of harmony :)
Jens Larsen I have a list of standards that I want to learn and expand upon, including Giant Steps, Donna Lee, Autumn Leaves and All the things you are.
Any other songs you'd recommend for an intermediate level improviser?
There will never be another you, Days Of Wine And Roses, Night And Day?
Was that Lydian Island with the #4 and palm trees?
I think it is! 🙂
Jens, I think the theory should be taught from the beginning and its not in most cases. You have to get it yourself if you can. I understand theory. It's the hearing part that's the problem. For instance, I am learning a Charlie Parker solo via tune Dizzy Atmosphere. There is a B7 chord that has the notes of a c#minor 7. The advanced stuff should be explained and taught early.
Yes it is much more difficult to hear which is why you have a better shot if it is already in the music you play.
As for the Parker thing: C#m7 is not impossible on a B7, it's in the scale and you also have to remember that the Omnibook has a lot of mistakes and typos :)
The Dizzy Atmosphere is a transcription where the c#minor 7 is played over a B7 chord
Jens, wondering if you saw Troy Grady's video with Mike Stern he just released. 33 improv ideas. I think a brief video of a similar vein would be cool. Or in the very least it could be a way to see something you may have not talked about and maybe what other players are doing. And then it could go to individual videos for each and maybe that could be more of your traditional videos and vocabulary with that idea.
+Bradley Stroup ok, I didn't see it, though usually his videos include videos of the artist , transcriptions and multi camera shotsand editing. Everything he does is with a crew of 4 or 5 people. I make 4-5 videos per week on my own ☺️
Jens Larsen I think it was really cool on the approach. It was kind of like going to the gym for improv, where he wasn't just working one idea or concept. He was improvising pentatonics, then improvising arpeggios, then octaves, then diminished ideas, then quintal. So like a circuit training of different ideas. So, maybe not indepth like a mastering of one idea but a jack of all trades approach
+Bradley Stroup Now I did watch it. To me it's just an ad to sell access to the complete interview? It's just disguised as something else because of the title, that part is really clever ☺️
Jens Larsen hopefully that title will inspire some new videos 😉
3:40 to 4:08 is sooo nice, Jens. For you, it must be very 'logical', wonderfully reasoning like you do, but for me those are eye-opening remarks. Thank you for that! (btw...what is that Capo doing in that Strat-type guitar behind you?) Makes me curious, haha! Thanks again for the vid.
Great! Thanks Toine! I am really happy that those two comparisons makes sense to somebody, I was doubting them a bit because they were so long, but also found it important!
The capo is just hanging there so I know where it is (and I was wondering when people was going to ask, you are the first one to do so 😄)
I'm sorry about the Capo-question, asking in public...;-) Seems like you need stuff like that, haha! But I understand completely! Thanks Jens. You are way over my head most of the time but I like to keep on trying to understand the vids your posting. This one is great, because I get it..yeah!! Keep it up...
Thanks! You keep it up as well! 🙂
Another great lesson Jens! As you said best thing is to learn SONGS and use songs as a vehicle to teach yourself theory. Its easy to get caught up in "theory land" so to speak. Where you just learn about theory but learn to play no songs. A better way would be to list your favorite standards and analyze the melody and chord progression. This way you learn a song, and you learn theory! If you look at Joe Pass' instructional videos he mentions that he learned to play by playing songs. Most old school jazz guitarists learned this way. This is a video by Frank Vignola and Bucky Pizzarelli: czcams.com/video/zQ2wSpcnpVc/video.html start watching from the 1:00 mark. I REALLY RECOMMEND WATCHING THAT VIDEO (lol sorry for caps)
And lets be honest, playing songs is what its all about. Somebody that can play 100 songs and knows no theory would be considered a better guitar player by most people than somebody that knows all the theory in the world but can't play any songs or can play only the intro to certain songs (Nothing else matters, Iron man, Stairway etc, damn I am guilty of this stuff).
TLDR: Use songs as a vehicle to learn theory: A tune centric approach. Then you can use theory to analyze the song and next use your knowledge of scales, rhythms, arpeggios, quartal harmony etc to shape the song into your own style. But learn songs!
It's not only the old school guys that learned by playing songs. My students learn like that as well :) Thanks!
Great Video...Thank You.......Jens
Glad you like it! 👍🙂
So true - great lesson
Thank you Kunchang Lee! I am glad you found it useful! 👍
Great advice.
Thank you Brad!
This video doesn't make any sense, you tend to talk off subject quite often
I am curious why you watched it then? 🙂
It made perfect sense to me. Perhaps it’s just over your head.