An Englishman Abroad: Yes or No?
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- čas přidán 28. 11. 2023
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With Maro Itoje pondering his future at Saracens, our trio discuss the hot topic of the week. Should England rugby players be allowed to play abroad AND for their country?
This episode was recorded shortly before rumours of Northampton Captain Lewis Ludlam's likely departure to France.
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#EnglandRugby #PremRugby #Rugby - Sport
I'd love you guys to dedicate a show to comparing the Prem, Top14 and URC to review where we can all improve together
Haskell and Tindall every week:
“It’s all about the players, the stars, kids grow up wanting to be Mario Itoje not wanting to be a saracens player. To grow the game we have to make it about the individuals”
Also Haskell and Tindall this week
“Some of the biggest names in the game leaving to go abroad won’t have any impact on the draw of clubs, the tickets they sell, shirt sales, the commercial value of the league”
I’m actually in favour of players going abroad on balance, but at least accept or be willing to discuss the adverse side effects. AP tried to set that line of conversation up twice and it was arrogantly dismissed.
“Fans will turn up and support their team regardless” is such an arrogant outdated attitude. Sure, some hard core fans will, but as you rightly point out week after week, young fans won’t, and crucially new fans won’t.
I like the pod but just wish it sometimes encouraged a bit more thoughtful debate. Only seems to happen when B Kayser or S Horgan make an appearance.
GBRA much better. Top banter, excellent analysis and fantastic chemistry between presenter and participants 😅
Yeah agree. Especially re: fans - yes rugby has an issue attracting new ones, but it also has a massive issue of treating existing fans like crap and taking them for granted, players / ex-players especially. Haskell seems to hate fans?!
The debate here is poor. Hask and Tindal pick an outcome then meld any point raised to match it, even against previous points they’ve made. They need a third person to even them out, as said elsewhere here somewhere
I cringe every time Haskell lays it on thick about the fans and the Barbour brigade at Twickenham then proceeds to pick up his hospitality appearance fee. Slagging off the exact people that have given you your entire career and still continue to do so understandably doesn’t make for comfortable viewing.
From a South African perspective, I can only say that it definitely works for us, as every weekend we have eligible players playing all over the world. If we were only to pick from players in our local league, the pool would be a lot smaller, and the development of new talent would be seriously hampered.
Also giving a whole set of additional players a chance and exposure
Hear hear, RFU are you listening?
Task: don’t repeat the same point over and over again for half an hour.
Haskell: Impossible.
is that not the point of this episode? its about one topic..
Haskell has a habit of making a point, then someone else starts talking (taking precious attention away from him) interrupting that person, and then repeat the same point from earlier. Genuinely this episode could have been 3 times shorter and still have all the Same information and opinions
@@clarabolton6337one topic can have many points of discussion
@@alanb9443Haskell spoils this show imo..no wonder his marriage failed.
Really interesting to get the behind the scenes of rugby business and hear hasks and tins stories
Maybe the England management team should be tasked with developing a system that suits the best performing English players and pick them, rather than picking the same old faces who are blocking up the pipeline and still being picked despite not having performed to the same level at their clubs.
For example, Mercer and Arundell should’ve been picked so many times.
The fact we’ve not seen Curry Symonds and Earl all on the pitch at the same time is an absolute crime.
Rugby players have a short career window, and if your national team coaches are just going to keep picking the old boys, why not go abroad, better that than waste your career tearing up the Prem as an underpaid player, and never getting picked for internationals.
People want to talk about NZ this and SA that, but over there they are totally ruthless, even with players with 50+ caps, if you play poorly and there’s someone else tearing it up, your out, simple as.
Over here we cling to the past too much.
I firmly believe there is also a massive disconnect between the new generation of players and the old boys that run the club and international games, values are not shared and they’ve little in common apart from a love of rugby. On top of that people at the top of rugby are not equipped in either expertise or education to be able to grow the game domestically or internationally - most of them are just figure heads tbh.
As a Kiwi I agree - Earl and Curry were absolutely immense at the RWC for England
Fascinating episode. Love these guys.
Wonderfully informative session. Love it!
lively episode, much needed !
So if we are to ‘grow the game’ in this country as we often hear we need to do, how do we sell the game if the best England players are not in show and a club continues to lose its best players abroad? It’s not all about England. Why should club academies invest in young players only to lose them abroad? It could kill the club game here.
Create a national academy
great pod boys x
English pro rugby is a contradiction. On the one hand it’s trying to embrace ‘free market’ principles by having autonomous business led clubs. But on the other hand, they’re handicapping it with ‘socialist’ principles like the salary cap, not selecting players from overseas and ring fencing the Prem. Worst of both worlds.
Thankyou!!!! Finally someone that understands what we are looking at!!!! On top the amateur era obsession of actively punishing investment into the sport is killing it.
Totally agree with hask and tins, players get to play at a higher rate standard, takes a financial load off the prem and allows new talent to emerge and allows players to provide the best for their families.
Isn’t the issue getting players released for training?
Went to Franklin gardens for my first game, it was like a fashion show at great British bakery off. More of status thing than actually wanting to watch the quality of play. Sat next to opposing fans & spent most the game listening to them talking about everything but the game. A few songs were sang when it went quiet or when they scored. If there’s a next time I need to wear brown shoes, blue jeans, Gillet, or shirt with a blazer with a scarf & a hat from Oliver Twist.
Ok it’s clearly not for you and that’s fine. But there’s plenty of people there who care about rugby, enjoy the game, spend their own money watching their team and have been loyal fans for years. Not sure how some of them dress is really relevant tbh, and says more about you that it influenced your level of enjoyment than it does about them, who ironically, are probably having a fun time.
@@wilsonc4027 the quality of play should be the core selling point everything else should be side revenue however the atmosphere & impression I got was it was the most pretentious people I’ve met at any sporting event & to be fair most had an awful understanding of the game.
Premiership dying a slow death.
@@wilsonc4027why you having a go at him? He’s 100% right there’s too many posh people going who don’t have enough passion to bring an atmosphere. Get the game into state schools, get it more like football crowds, and get the northerners in more if we can
@@jakeclough8090 the conception that someone’s social background has an impact on their ability to show passion at live sport is an interesting take…
All for rugby being in state schools, should be number 1 priority for the RFU.
@@wilsonc4027 it is an interesting take and one I find has a strong correlation. Of course it’s not one box fits all, you get some of the most passionate and loud fans who at posh. But 9/10 times I would say someone from a state school is more passionate at a football game than a posh man at a rugby game. Although I do think this becomes less so as you get younger. But that’s because young private school boys are more mixed in with the globalised world, you can’t ignore the premier league, the fan atmospheres and other things. So these social differences are becoming less but not quick enough. Get rugby into state schools more, get the state school kids into rugby clubs and you’ll double your club fanbase at the worst, but the process will take a couple of decades to see results
South Africa has unique circumstances . The currency is monopoly money Rugby is a proffession players have limited trading life The exodus created a vacume for new and exciting talent to emerge which lead to the depth of the current 4xRWC champions . Has revenue dropped from gate money For sure esp in the early stages of the rugby tournaments but (and i havent got the figures ) i think the GAME has never been stronger here I am not sure of the financial health of the clubs (we have fewer) but i think long term view its important to create players whose status transend boarders
If you export your best players then attendance will drop more who is going to come out for two teams that don have star power?
True. I considered cancelling BTNT this year due to the lack of big signings in the off season.
@@LukeP3136exactly the premier league clubs need to wake up they are destroying their own competition.
Problem is if the clubs haven’t got the money or the ability (wage cap) to pay them it’s happening regardless! The only way this changes is if the wage cap is scrapped and you welcome investment into the clubs and not penalise and shun investment like they did at sarries. As a billionaire looking to invest in a club after what sarries went through I wouldn’t touch the prem with a barge pole
@@herb2078 sarries broke the cap that was meant to help. Make the league somewhat fairer or a contest and not what you have in the Premier league football with a few superclubs. they need a realistic cap to not go overboard. But good enough to get good players in and develop academies
Punishing investment into the sport like seen with sarries, forcing a low salary cap and a huge focus on amateur era mentality to running the sport is what’s killing the sport in England. France have taken the complete opposite mentality, very professional, no salary cap and a focus on welcoming investment into the sport shows exactly how the game should be managed. Remove the old clowns in blazers eating prawn sandwiches and bring in people who understand how to run a corporate organisation in the modern world.
Of all the players from 2003, Tindal seems to be the one who hasn't moved on. Him and clive the rest have parked rugby-union or are full on onto it coaching.
A more relaxed thrush this week as he could talk about himself unfortunately knowledge that is over ten year old. The next Clive Woodwood
Did Farrell jump before pushed?? I hear RFU CEO talked to Borthwick post World Cup about Farrell Borthwick went to speak to Farrell and the compromise was what we have read. The RFU committee are very concerned about lack of take up on ticket sales and TV rights money being reduced
Limit international players in the Premiership which will increase the English talent developed, and increase the salaries of the top English players. And let players go wherever they want to play, just pick the best players wherever they are playing.
Nah international players improve the league
Problem is there’s no money, investment into the sport is actively punished and not welcomed so the money isn’t there and on top pay them a good wage it’s impossible under the low salary cap. The idea is great but the overall management of the sport won’t allow it
I practice judo club level ok .but to get better you have to travel,if you don’t you don’t get better or get opportunities.
A mon avis, je suis d’accord ❤
The idea that the top 14 (was it 16?) Was a higher quality league than the Prem back then is ridiculous. Slow pace with huge breaks in play was the norm. It was dominated by 4 teams who walked over the rest
As much as I love football, isn't it a sad situation that popular sports such as rugby league and union can't run a viable top flight in a sporting nation like the UK/England because football is so pervasive?
Too many overseas players in the premiership taking up our very limited resources... players outside of the salary cap should all have to be England qualified and available.
I wonder why that is🤔 Hmm... Could it have to do with the fact that those overseas players are better and most of them are from the 2 most dominant rugby playing nations in the world? Maybe there should be a 'Brexit for rugby' to get rid of all the foreigners in the game😂🤣
If we get rid of majority of foreign players then the English game will also suffer unfortunately. We need different cultures to allow our homegrown players to have a wider perspective of the game
How about what they're actually achieving for England, the very thing they stay at home for? Looks like hard work.
Loving the vienneta and after eight chat 🤣👌🏼
Not sure about big club fans not caring about England though...
What has happened to Hask. He's talking and making great sense.
Maro and Ellis Genge to NSW Waratahs! Before Lions .? Teach us Aussies a bit of tight work ! Learn how to pass / run! NRL style! #James Graham! I’m sure Angus, Ned, Langi and co ,would improve, as,they would,! Courtney too!
I'm not watchin this video but all i know is those 1 point losses especially by France and England is sending those teams into turmoil with coaches and players questioning themselves on a crazy level. That's the only mass exodus I see.
Hask is spot on with this subject.
From a players perspective. From a commercial point he’s miles off
@@jakeclough8090 think we have to dismiss the commercial arguments of an organisation that has proven itself commercially incompetent. the state of things proves these notions untrue.
@@rorymkirk no it makes the commercial value even more important. I’d love to know what makes the commercial value of the top 14 so different to the Premiership. You tell me why the French league is more profitable then if the premiership is so incompetent
@@jakeclough8090 an intensive culture and focus on local club support. l'esprit de clocher. Even when Toulon were the most galactico side in the world, they had supreme local support. Saracens can’t get 10k to turn up on any given Sunday.
@@rorymkirk yeah you’ve just told me statistics, now tell me why. Well first of all by the way the Premiership only has 1000 less per game than the top 14. 14.5k v 13.5k isn’t a big difference. Tell me how you get more people going to Saracens and other clubs
If there’s to be a provision to play outside of England and still for England, then the players can’t expect to collect all / any of the usual 22k match fees. Players and ex-players want it all - which is understandable, but biased (naturally) and emotional. No one is stopping anyone from playing anywhere - but the RFU have every right to say ‘if you want to play for us and take our money then do X’. And atm if the current setup or similar weren’t in place, the Prem would be stripped. England starters get 200+k p.a. from England + image boost etc., if you can get more than that +your club money in France then great! Your choice
100%yes
What Jack hasn't gone anywhere?
I have often wondered if any england rugby player, going to lets say French teams,,then is ineligible to be lick for england could go to court freedom of employment,human rights,etc, just think what boseman did for football, is it against the law technically,,,
Maybe it’s the way England play that puts fans off buying tickets and in turn drives players abroad for better rugby and more money, their World Cup games were shit to watch 🤷♂️
Foreign players can get better coming here as well. Louis Picamoles & Cobus Reinach at Northampton are two who certainly did.
One of the risks of 10 Prem clubs and having no relegation and less money is that the standards drop & we can't afford or attract those sort of players to set them.
Only in English rugby can ex-players record a podcast slagging off the World Cup Winning squad they played with.
Sad really.
Haskell has it right. Rugby doesn't have stars
There will not be a mass exodus of English players, for the simple fact that they are not that good. The premiership is very average standard.
Its all very well score loads of points in games, but the defensive side of the game suffers somewhat.
And so you improve the standard of the premiership by allowing some of best players to leave?
@@wilsonc4027How would that help.
Maybe 10 clubs are to many, the talent maybe spread to thinly.
Maybe English rugby is to midclass, and are missing out on untapped talent.
@@folkmoot36you have to be a troll if you’re making such terrible points 😂
@@folkmoot36you need more clubs not less mate! Look at welsh rugby, they had a prem of 12 clubs spread across the country then went to 4 provinces, we’ve seen way less players coming through because the access to clubs and facilities aren’t there and attendances drop because your nearest club is over a hour away.
Masexodus
Banning players who are playing abroad from England team is RIDICULAS beyond beleif!
Imagine Harry Kane & Bellingham not be eligible for the football team....its moronic. Esp after 3 prem teams went under.