Automatron 5: Is it Moral to Kill The Mechanist? The Full Story of The Mechanist - Fallout 4 Lore
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- čas přidán 27. 03. 2017
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Is it moral for Preston Garvey to mark settlements on your map?
*IT ISN'T!* He put's a large amount of unneeded stress on one man just trying to survive! Despite the fact that he could go and help settlements once in a while, he just sits around in sanctuary, drinking booze and wandering around. IMMORAL!
Yes, another settlement needs our help. Here, I’ll mark it on your map
Preston Garvey AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH(I did this on mobile it was a nightmare)
yes it is
You must be the God returned, or a revived Albert einstein my dood. You are absolutely genius, also a totally MORAL video suggestion for him.
I cannot be the only one that laughs when you get too far away from Ada and she tries to sprint to you with her weird protectron legs.
First chance I get I give her Mr Handy "legs" and paint her orange. I like the floating robot idea a lot.
I turned her into an assaultron.
I made her into a Sentry Bot
I actually run ahead of her just so I can turn around and watch her trying to catch up LOL
i have her assaultron legs, would be pretty dumb if i left her like that even after learning she could be modified
She can fight
She can program robots
She can probably hack terminals
She wants to help people
Honestly, I would've wanted her as a companion
That would be really cool
Like maybe she would have this special weapon that could launch eye drones with lasers as sort of temporary followers, but she would only launch one. Or maybe she could have some way of remotely or passively hacking enemy robots over time.
Agreed 100%. You being the person that showed her she was misguided and proved that you want to help the commonwealth, she should be able to be a companion and not only that there should be an option to have her stay as the Mechanist and create robots to fight alongside you with a reinforcement system. The option could have been to convince her to ditch the robobrains completely and handle programming and initializing of missions herself to make sure that her orders were being followed properly. Both of these would have spiced up the DLC a lot more than simply "you can make robots now" and would make a potential Mechanist style playthrough amazing, especially if you can actually make a terminal to automate the creation and initialization of robots for tasks around the settlements for anything that is lacking, such as collecting scrap when a scrap collection settlement piece is not assigned, assigning robots for food management or even defense if a defense point is not assigned as well. You could assign a baseline model by commanding a robot to stand on a "scanner" to be the current task being scanned for so the current task needing assignment like a modified Mr Handy or something for gardening, a heavily modified and horrifyingly potent sentry bot for defense, and potentially a heavy cargo variant of a robot (like Drinking Buddy or a protectron with tons of storage capacity) to send out for scavenging missions. There is a mod that adds in protectron variants you can place in a settlement to have them do something like this (Mr Gardener, Police Protectron, Medic Protectron and Construction Protectron for repairing) and I absolutely love those mods but I wish we had a base game variant of something like that we could improve on using the Atomatron DLC.
Agreed
I will confirm she cannot hack terminals UNLESS you mod it on her to be able to. She can also be modded to pick locks. I believe all robots can actually.
There's now a mod for it, which is nice
"I'm not a villain" hard to believe when you're wearing x-01 armor
False. The enclave is the best hope for the wasteland.
Lmao I finally got it after reading the reply
@@jamesr.2017 its seems that prezident eden was secretly robobrain
@@jamesr.2017 You misspelled Caesar. Common mistake
Mainly the helmet for me.
She would've been an awesome companion in my opinion.
I agree. Bethesda wasted her so bad
Agreed. I feel really bad for Isabel Cruz/The Mechanist. She doesn't deserve death. If she was a companion she should be romancable.
could've had an amazing redemption arc as a companion
I tried pacifying her then sparks came after me
Ima try to kill her and take that cool outfit
If you ever kill a couple dozen people with robots, take pictures of yourself giving water to settlers outside of Megaton;
The courts love that sort of thing.
Or give a guy metal for free
Or donate caps
Nah, just mark locations on their maps. Send them to help another settlement, everyone loves that.
@@overlorddante Exactly
James easy pezzy karma
Mechanist: I can't take back what I've done, or even atone for it
The Game notification: You're carrying too much weight, you cannot run.
To much emotional weight
-NHsans- hahahahahahahahahahah what the fuck
-NHsans- ummmm that’s weird I only fuck cats
@@wolfspider2034 dead 🤣
Imagine a whole new common wealth. the silver shroud with his sidekick the mechanist. The dialog alone would be good and funny..
I would like to see this as a mod
Please Bethesda
No
That's what I was thinking @Steven Paige !
And don't forget Manta man.
Throughout my play through of Automaton, made me think of the quote, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". So far it is my favorite DLC.
What, it’s paved with unique laser rifles?
@@jamesr.2017 yeah but there's no ammo so it's a bit harder to stage a break out
JokesOnMe it’s called beating them to death
Soo many years after playing this initially, I added on Nuka Cola World. I am torn between that and Far Harbor for favorite DLC.
One of these days, Oxhorn is going to do a "Is it moral to kill" video and it will be a 2 second long video where you just says "Yes"
ɥsǝlʌ yea for Preston Garvey lmao
It'll be for someone like the master or some other truly evil creature that kills many without good reason, like Elijah or just a deathclaw or Yao guai
It'd probably be Kellogg, if he ever did that.
Zack Hamrick it would make an interesting debate about killing Kellogg
Cook Cook?
"Lets talk face to face."
**doesnt even get out of power armor**
Ox, you tricked a poor girl!
Which is responssible for Genecide
@@guardsmanlars6797 What's Genecide?
Jonah Davis its Genocide he spelled it wrong
@@ajon6487 here is your gold star! Good job yayyyyyyy
@@jonahdavis6550 genetic massacre
"even good intentions need checks and balances." Well said Ada.
Road to hell is often paved with good intentions.
Yep especially when it's a laser weapon
I love how the Mechanist's eye lenses reflect an outside daylight scene when you're underground in a factory.
I wish that Isabel had been a companion, or that you could have done more with her once Automatron is over. All of the four factions in the game come at technology from different angles. It would have been cool to have her join the Brotherhood to work with Doctor Li, or help rebuild the Minutemen, or lend her genius to the Institute or the Railroad, if even in a minor way. But just as with so much in Fallout 4, I have to rely on headcanon.
Well having her as a companion wouldnt make sense because she hates killing. But for her joining a faction would be cool.
To be fair, the new brotherhood doesn't use many robots. With the exception of LP and PAM if you steal her for them. The mechanist says herself, all she knows is robots. They *could* benefit from her knowledge about robots, sure, but they seem to be getting along fine without her, and if they knew what she did? She wouldn't likely be very *welcome*, consider her tampering with technology is EXACTLY the kind of thing the Brotherhood is actively trying to stop.
The Institute has long since moved on from robotics. The technology used in creating synths is so far beyond what the mechanist is doing. Her contribution to them would be fairly minimal. More-over, she's a wastelander. An irradiated degenerate as far as the Institute is concerned. Likely the only way to actually allow her entrance would be to actually be the leader of the institute, and by then, her ability to benefit the Institute would be proportionate to her ability to learn their science in the time it would take to go against the Brotherhood, and Railroad.
She COULD help the railroad. She clearly has experience with memory wiping and robotics. She could easily assist with Synth memory wipes, help hack robots around the common wealth or use her eyebots to get the railroad eyes across the commonwealth at all times. They try to avoid killing people, though she may see the same moral dilemma that Dima does in wiping a synth's memories. After all, our lives are the sum of our experiences. To take those away from us, would be tantamount to murder.
And of course, she's likely the most useful to the Minutemen. With a better guiding hand, her skills would be utilized, appreciated, and properly directed so to avoid any unfortunate murderbot mishaps in the future.
I'll go faction by faction in reply:
1.) If only there was a make-or-break project for the Brotherhood that involved some sort of large-scale robotics effort. :) Also, I would think that power armor is applied robotics, and that's a staple of the Brotherhood. If you want to break out of the existing paradigm, you would need a robotics genius to do it. And even if they didn't need her robotics skill, she would make a damn good scribe and engineer. As for accepting her, Paladin Danse offers the Sole Survivor a position with the Brotherhood after fighting off some ferals and a trip to Arcjet. If that's all it takes, she would be a shoe in. As for her past crimes, that was the Mechanist, a personality that's now defunct. The Sole Survivor could vouch for her, keep her secret, and her skills would speak for themselves. Besides, let's not pretend the Brotherhood really cares for the people of the Commonwealth. They extort food for 'protection' and rarely defend said people when trouble comes calling, so I doubt there would be too much moralizing over what she had done if they ever found out.
2.) There is a department in the institute still labeled 'Robotics.' Maybe it's more advanced than what's she working with, but finding someone with her skill would have to be incredibly rare. There is an Institute quest ("Pinned" I think it is) where you go relieve a retrieval team who wanted to recruit a wastelander, T.S. Wallace. We are only told that his aptitude was unusually high in the sciences. We know nothing else about him. That guy had no formal training and the Institute went to great effort to recruit him, so again, I think Isabel's qualifications would speak for themselves. Even post factions, the Institute would continue to advance the sciences, and you don't do that by arbitrarily ignoring natural talent when it presents itself. By your definition, the Sole Survivor is also a wastelander degenerate, and only given special consideration due to her relationship with Father. As the head of the Institute, the Sole Survivor could sponsor her and the department heads would have little space to object.
3.) I agree. My biggest problem with the Railroad is that they wipe synths, effectively murdering them. In Babylon 5, death of personality was a punishment only one step removed from the death penalty, but here the Railroad believes they are helping Synths by doing it. I like that they are trying to help Synths that don't want to be slaves to the Institute, but their methods are suspect. I believe that Isabel only wiped her robobrains to reduce the margin of error of them misinterpreting their orders. That of itself is weird when you consider Jezebel. She has a pretty prickly personality and a name, and feels like she's been around enough to develop something over and above the factory settings. Isabel didn't wipe her for some reason.
4.) Yes, the Minutemen would benefit most from her experience. That's true of almost any kind of technical experience, though. Where the other factions already have an established hierarchy, the Sole Survivor comes into the Minutemen at the ground floor since they are effectively starting over. ANYONE with technical experience is going to be a boon to them because they have almost nothing to start out. But, to Oxhorn's point in another video, the Minutemen could potentially become the strongest faction of them all because they are inclusive, determined, and decentralized. Isabel's motives and idealism would be best suited there.
Well, she doesn't enjoy it, but she did it anyway when it came to raiders and other hostile threats. So long as the Sole Survivor doesn't go the Nuka-World route and go rogue, I would think she would be fine with mixing it up to defend the innocent. And if you could have convinced her to keep the Mechanist's outfit, how cool would it be to run around the Commonwealth with her while dressed as the Silver Shroud? It's UNSTOPPING TIME! :)
+The Sector M Great idea!
when you think about it realistically, shes an invaluable person to keep alive. if it were real life she could be used to great effect at advancing the technology of any of the major factions. the weapons of the railroad, the automatons she could add to the minutemen, advancing the power armor tech of the brotherhood or even developing the gen 1-2 synths of the institute.
Ada suffered the loss of her friends, but has gained more and new friends under the care of the Sole Survivor as the General of the Minutemen, in my playthrough anyway.
0:01 "Is it moral to kill the Mechanist?"
No. Well, that was quick.
Killing Isabel was like killing a sad puppy that just realized she made a huge mistake. I couldn't bring myself to kill her: she's just so cute!
Killing her would be a mistake,not only would you lose her armor and her products,but you could lose the unlimited amount of quests in which you destroy her robots,which give you good loot to build your own bots,it's honestly a waste.
I always build my character as a gun guy/girl but with her I personally beat her to death .it was the right thing to do.
I wish they did more with her character, to me she is one of the most interesting npcs in the entire game.
cookie69420 lol you’re trying so hard.
I punched her through her tin can helmet and busted her head...
You're carrying too much and can't run!
Sonari N. Roulette *you take a sip from your trusty vault 13 canteen....*
[ Map updated. ]
[Fusion Core removed.]
Fomortiis The Meme wood needed
[Preston disliked that]
"Maybe that's why you don't stick human brains in robots" -sole survivor 2018
This single comment made me realize 2018 was 4 damn years ago
I love isabel cruz. She reminds me a lot of myself. I wish there was a way to make her a companion. She could make like a unique robotic exosuit. That would have been so cool.
She could use special power armor
It's not moral. She wanted to do good, but her robots malfunctioned.
But if I programmed robots to help people and they ended up killing people surely it would be moral for me to be arrested/executed.
Exactly. I don't really see the point in this video since it's already explained to those who've played through the questline. x)
no they misinterpreted orders its not her fault
Well, it is moral for you to be arrested and tried by a jury of your peers. I suspect though that you would not be executed. Execution is generally reserved for Murder, and a murder conviction requires proof of intent. Since the clear and evident intent was good, the crime cannot be murder. At most, Involuntary Manslaughter, or perhaps merely Criminal Negligence. Neither of those carry a death sentence. No, killing her isn't moral, as even in a fully functional society she wouldn't be executed for this. No, her punishment should be to live the rest of her life, hiding in an underground bunker, wracked with guilt, alone. I think that's more than enough.
The same thing applies to involuntary manslaughter. A person who drives under the influence did not intend to run someone over and kill them, but when it happens, the driver is to blame and is to be punished accordingly. That is the most moral decision. Isabel didn't account for all the possibilities the robobrain could have interpreted her commands. Therefore it is by proxy and involuntary manslaughter, that Isabel is killing people in the commonwealth.
"If you wanna talk we do this face to face"
*Wears power armor helmet*
You are carrying too much and can't run!
Time for *THE SILVER SHROUD*
@@ajon6487 what I thought I'm the only one who noticed he was wearing power armor /s
Thisisntahelmetthisismyface
She's guilty of man slaughter, not murder. That's my thoughts.
Not even manslaughter. I would just say her own machines failed her.
Man slaughter on a mass scale at that
Keep in mind that the brains she used were those of criminals. Murderers, rapists, the criminally insane.
And attempted murder, considering she sent a bunch of robots in the final confrontation with the ss.
@@c.a.r1691 to be fair, she had the same decision you did, she saw you as an intruder, as a threat, to her YOU were the villain in this story.
2:59
“If you want to talk, we do this face to face”
*proceeds to leave helmet on*
I honestly don't know Isabel managed to mess it up so bad. The robot companions I've found and made seem to have no problems not killing people, robobrain head or no. I've even got Jezebel running supply lines in a full robobrain body with dual laser snipers, and the settlers she delivers to aren't dying. She says that robots are all she knows, but she clearly doesn't know them all too well if my 200 year old robot butler is a more upstanding citizen than anything she's ever programmed.
glaive21842 Because gameplay. Your robots would be useless if they fired indiscriminately
To play Devil's advocate for a second, a good headcanon reason may be that Sole Survivor may be using a much narrower set of parameters in his/her robots than the Mechanist used, plus the Survivor's robots would be under more consistent scrutiny as they either patrol settlements or travel the connecting patrol routes. That out of the way, while I don't question the sincerity of her remorse, I do agree that somethings don't ring true about her claim to be the best robotics engineer around or her total ignorance of what the robots were doing, If she realizes her mistake after a couple Speech Checks, than its something she's been dwelling on for a lot longer than that particular confrontation, but, didn't want to accept
P L O T C O N V I N I E N C E
The problem was the robobrains and the mission they were given. Sole has robots and Sole has robobrains. But she/he doesn't program them to wander the common wealth and "save" people. Sole has them either running supplies, guarding settlements, or following them as a companion. The orders are very simple: "Go here, do X activity, kill anything that attacks you or the things you're guarding." The whole, "seek out and kill hostiles to save people" thing was too vague for robotic minds.
All previous responces are incorrect, because, facility used brains of maniacs and criminals from the deathrow. Neural pathways may reconstitute after while. Thats why memory wipes.
I feel that this dlc had missed potential, if only we could recruit her into the Minutemen, free from the alias as the Mechanist and supplement Minuteman patrols with robots, it would've been a great boon to aid the end game for an independent Commonwealth
To be fair, her tech has been of great use to the minutemen. I build robo caravans, and robo guards to patrol the Commonwealth. Thanks to her knowledge, the Commonwealth is safer than ever.
Shorewall how do you do that?
The automatron dlc pretty much renders the institute and brotherhood useless lorewise imo
minute man this minute man that fuck the Minutemen
I wish you could refer her to the Minutemen. Just imagine them with an army of robots. Who will call the Minutemen the weakest faction now with a hundred robots under their command?
It is possible to send her to the castle, modify her to your liking, and have her guard the castle to keep it's Minutemen and Settlers safe from any harm.
8:09 I was watching this without looking at the screen and this scene sounds very strange out of context lol
Makes you wonder why would Ada's creator integrate gasps and moans when taking damage😅?
ok that is really bad.
@@henrytai6227 (insert Lenny face here)
Holy fuck I laughed at this too hard.
*i appear to be scared*
the mechanists emotionless face would definitely fit into mass effect andromeda
Oooooooh Slam-Dunk
savage
BURN
You'd need a burn heal for that level of scorch.
**AIRHORNS AND SUUUUUCH**
I wish the mechanist could be a companion.
Me to
@@guardsmanlars6797 There is a mod
I prefer sparks
Due to her personality around killing it might bring forth compromising positions in battles.
*Give the oufit to cait or piper*
I love his voice when he’s just talking in his videos! It makes everything so much more interesting! The way he reacts with what happens and reads options! I played his video in my parents house and everyone sat down to watch. Even my mom who doesn’t even play, she was curious has of what the game was! Your impressive man
Fun fact when isabell is wearing the mechanist suit she has a pip boy built in on her left arm, but when she takes it off she has no pip boy, if the soul survivor were to wear this suit you wouldn't have a built in pip boy instead the left arm peace is removed and the standard vault pip boy is equipped instead.
Unless I truly know a character is evil and meant to be evil (like the Pack, Disciples, and Operators), I treat them with moral ambiguity. Isabel made a mathematical error that even she didn't know about. She never truly wanted to kill settlers, travelers, caraveneers, etc. Her intentions started out good, but the execution wasn't intentional when it happened.
It's morally wrong to kill The Mechanist. There, I said it. She wanted right for the Commonwealth, but instead maths screwed her over.
Lol, maths screw everyone
Non Non bruh fr
"screwed by maths" story of our lives
Syberian
Syberian - things get a bit odd when you start talking about the operators since they are the most different from the other two groups, in that the weapon they give you to help take settlements in literally a grenade that makes people more susceptible to speech.
They fall into the category of raiders who only care about money, will do anything to get it, but would rather not waste resources to take it if they don't have to, so if you just hand over your stuff they'll leave you alone, I guess that makes them the least evil of the raiders but by no means good.
needed more Ant-agonizer
Jason Kishpaugh needs more Brit-Ant (if you get that I'll be so happy)
WAIT if she did actually become a companion, would she react if you would put the Mechanist suit on her, and then her name change to the mechanist, so then the mechanist can actually be a companion, and certain enemies like the rust devils actually react to this fact and react in for example anger? and she would hate it if you sided with the Nuka-world raiders.
Wouldn't that be something.
You're playing a Bethesda game, so I'm afraid this was never an option.
@@boneman-calciumenjoyer8290 Saaddd.
@@ChextheVes4451 yes, very sad...
8:08
Close your eyes.
Das Institut HAHAHA!
Nice
gud
Finally found this kind of comment
Hey I can spell
It's not moral, she's someone who really wanted to help people and made a serious mistake that she truely regrets.
True, but that mistake still did cost the lives of many in the Commonwealth. Guilty and innocent. Men, women and quite possibly children.
Would sparing her dishonor the lives of those taken? And the survivors who loved them?
And is that something the Mechanist can truly live with? That her robots most likely killed children?
While it would be moral to keep her alive so that she can repent her actions, it's not an easy decision to make when you realize how many lives were ruined because of her mistake.
No it's not she's a good person, the commonwealth needs more people like that
Porcupinezrule 4
Yes. More good people to make horrible mistakes that lead to more unnecessary death.
How many people are with Ada when she got ambushed? How many settlers happened to be in the way of a junkbot war path? They aren't your average robot, no sir, they've got all sorts of highly dangerous modifications that can turn the average protectron into something truly monstrous to fight for the average wastelander.
It is 100% moral to kill the mechanist. In the same way its moral to kill D.I.M.A. Good people with good intentions is all well and good, until they start murdering innocent people.
Matthew, there's a difference between someone knowingly committing a murder like D.I.M.A and someone who doesnt know that their robots are killing people. D.I.M.A decided to hide his shame by getting rid of the memory of the act. However once the Mechanist learns what actually happens. she's stricken by grief of what her robots have done and constantly helps you take them down. Plus she's constantly living with the guilt daily and not running from it like D.I.M.A did.
I think Oxhorn put it best. It's clear she is HORRIFIED at what she did, and upon realizing the truth, she immediately shuts down the projects and gives it up to you no questions asked. It's clear that while she unknowingly did evil, there's a chance she can still mature and do ACTUAL good for the world. Someone like her truly does deserve to live. Even if the good she does in the future never makes up for what she once did, it would serve as guiding point on how to act.
"We must talk face to face!" Says oxhorn's character while wearing a suit of power armour.
Personally, my philosophy is that the Death Penalty is the easy way out. The best way to punish someone is to let them live and let the weight of their decisions and their guilt weigh on them for the rest of their days. Let them contemplate the lives they’ve destroyed and let them think of all the hopes and dreams they’ve snuffed out while they sit alone in a box of concrete and metal bars. Of course, there will be people that won’t feel guilt but a majority of people will
"If you want to talk we do this face to face" says the guy in full power armour 🤔
The fact that she considers Blackstone's ratio (the principle in law that "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer") in her programming of the robots is itself proof that killing her is immoral.
She may have failed in keeping that principle, but it was accidental.
Accidental on her part, maybe. I think the robobrains intentionally twisted their own understanding of their protocols in order to kill as many as they could--I don't know what effect a compliance routine has on an AI, but I imagine there is serious displeasure, like a shock collar on a dog.
She committed first degree murder (as defined in the U.S.). She created those robots with the intention of killing people, and they killed the wrong people. Her motivation and actions were pre-meditated, as evidenced by her thorough and unsuccessful tests, which if submitted to a court of law would be tried as murder in the first degree. The penalty for that crime, especially considering the fact that this was mass murder, is often death or multiple life sentences in prison. Killing her would be acting in the spirit of the law, and therefore is morally justifiable. It may not be moral to you, but I’m sure it is to the families and friends of those who were needlessly slaughtered because of her actions.
Your supposition is interesting. For you, actions and results are subordinate to the intentions of a person. She is using human brains, what many consider the source of our identity and ability to reason and make choices, that are trapped, supposedly against their will, to form an army of killing machines. The mechanical slaves go out and kill people, often murdering innocents in the process, and are welcomed home by getting their memories erased over and over again. We’ve established that she uses a form of enslavement to build her army, she sends this slave army out for the sole purpose of killing people, and this results in the mass murder of innocent people throughout the commonwealth. Yet because it was an accident, she deserves a pardon. Why is that?
Kolby Williams, this comment is why it’s more ethical to kill her than keeping her alive, but because Oxhorn sees the world in black and white; he sees it as unethical to kill her because in his worldview it’s no more different than Batman killing The Joker and becoming The Joker.
Light Yagami
I don’t think it’s quite that simple for Oxhorn, but I think he and many people fail to consider a lot of facts because they are just unaware of them. Most people don’t know the difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder for example. People think that all accidental killing is manslaughter, which is not true. I’m not saying it is the most ethical choice to kill her either, it may not be the most ethical option. The Socratic method drives me to ask questions, though. I choose not to take an official position because it’s more fun to play devils advocate and make people think past the two or three steps of logic that led to their conclusion in order to see how they process information without the knee jerk pathos coloring their view.
@@kolbywilliams6288 She did not create the robobrains. They were made by General Atomics International before the bombs fell, and they used the brains of convicted criminals. You can actually visit a location in the game where scientists were working on the robobrain project. There, you will find multiple human brains, as well as cells either filled with skeletons or ghouls. The terminals contain some lore and information regarding the experiments as well. Most of the criminals were insane, so they either tried to kill themselves or anyone around them. If you ask me, using their brains to make machines to serve humans sounds like recycling, but since the scientists couldn't program the robobrains to stay obedient just like a regular robot, it's too dangerous. Just wanted to clarify the "she's using human brains as slaves against their will" thing :).
If you think there is any chance that the Mechanist will start up again, then the moral choice is to kill her... However, I do not think there is any evidence to support that idea.
Intent matters. If someone kills another person with a car on accident compared to on purpose, that completely changes how "we" perceive the perpetrator. Deadly mistakes do happen, even with the best of intentions. There is nothing to gain from killing a person that recognizes their honest mistake/s.
Jordan Futch Haha by that approach all super heroes are worthless since the villains just keep coming back.
Weston schlei Super heroes almost never just let villians go they send them to jail and they escape
The Ghosty One the only reason superheroes don’t end villains is be because the story must go on.
@@IJustExploded except for the punisher
Should a General be responsible for what their troops do behind their back?
Should a King be responsible for what his subjects do in secret?
Should a leader be responsible for what their subordinates do, without ever telling the leader the full story of what is going on? Should the leader be responsible for when the subordinates misinterpret orders?
No. How can the leader be to blame when the leader is kept in the dark by their underlings?
The robots are responsible for their actions. They should all be dismantled/destroyed. The Mechanist should live.
Why did i read this in Andrew Ryans voice?
I don't think Isobel should die for what her robots did, but they are robots that she programmed. So she is responsible for their behavior. They can't exactly lie. They did as instructed, the only way they knew how. It's on her for failing to catch their behavioral flaws. They wouldn't even have been out there if not for her. And they did the only thing they could've done. So it's still on her to make it right. People died because SHE put them together, coded them, and put them out there without an adequate enough way to really check in on her creations. The robots are just machines, human brain inside or not, so the negligence is hers. You could argue the human brain angle, but maybe think twice before sending experimental machines powered by actual 200-year-old human brains out to roam the commonweath with deadly weapons? The robobrains were top secret experimental stuff right up until when the bombs dropped. Just going through the lair, you learn a ton about the project, and how iffy those robobrains were. She had every means to learn these things and choose better. She herself seemed to have doubts, but ultimately went through with it anyway. People are usually expected to answer for that sort of thing.
And yes, most times, a leader is responsible for the actions of those under them. That is what it means to lead. The group under you may not know what you know or see what you see. They are supposed to defer to you when you ask. And if not, you have to fix that by either correcting that behavior or getting them out of there. A leader with a crew who doesn't follow them is no leader at all. Again, it is on THEM to make sure they know what is going on. Working as a manager, if my subordinate is lying to me and just effing off doing nothing, and I continue to take them at their word without adequate proof (such as actually checking on their output,) I may just get fired myself. If I don't deal with that, it is on me. As a leader, my job is to make sure things like that get dealt with. I mean, who would the crew resent more? Their cohort not pulling his weight? Or the guy above them all who has the ability to change that, but doesn't?
Back to that analogy. I would argue that if your kingdom is a mess, people will simply say that you're a bad king. "Off with his head!" If I am a king and decide to make my kingdom one that exclusively retains drug addicts and derelicts, am I not responsible for the damage done when they travel by putting them up and enabling them? When they lie to me, is it acceptable for me to just believe them because we've talked about things before and they said they understood? Because I told them what to do in a public speech and passed down mandates? Or do I not also need to enforce that? How do I know they're not telling me what I want to hear? Am I doing enough as a leader by leaving it at that and chilling in my nice, safe castle with yes men whispering sweet nothings?
If you are a general of a platoon and your platoon is going out raiding, you best hold them to it or that is your ass! You chose a position of leadership and it is up to you to lead them. The behavior of every single person below you reflects directly on you. Just as your actions reflect on the ones above you, who will have to pass down judgement or be judged by the ones above THEM. But that is to say the ultimate responsibility for making things work out is the guy in charge. They are the ones with the plans. The plan fails, that is their failure as much as it is their team's failure.
If we think of the Mechanist as a leader of these robots, then she failed miserably as a leader and there were dire consequences. Though I will say that with her skills and intentions, she could do a lot of good. So it is still better to give her a chance to use those things better than to punish her and take that out of the world forever.
She should be held accountable and expected to improve for her to have learned her lesson.
And she can't learn if she is dead.
@@connorbates2756
No says the man in Washington, it belongs to the poor
No says the man in the Vatican, it belongs to God
No says the man Moscow, it belongs to everybody
"I didn't shoot this person, the gun did!"
Ada is one of my favorite characters. Bridging the gap between a mindless automaton with the programmed evolution of what it means to be human. To know the driving desire to seek revenge for loved ones taken to soon by unnatural means. But if the player spares the mechanist, then Ada's response of learning compassion and understanding that with living comes all the weight of past decisions shows the depth of her evolution. In truth Ada reminds me of Currie, once a machine. A robot crafted to serve man, but through the broader understanding and vision of those men which allowed that simple creation to grow and blossom into so much more. Much like humans start out as simple creatures but over time grow and developed into their own being. I applaud Bethesda for their insight into their characters and Oxhorn for delving into the characters as deeply as he does. By doing such it really brings them to life and causes me to view the game in a deeper aspect then I may have before 👏👏👏
Know why I love her too? She kills all my enemies and I don't have to do anything about it.
Also , she has more personality than preston.
Thats good.
She felt uneasy about being responsible for the deaths of raiders, she must feel such extreme guilt for the deaths she had a hand in in her time as the mechanist. To say that she is responsible is not entirely correct however. She was mislead, intentionally, by the robobrains, who sought to kill mercilessly anything they came across. I think the robobrains are the ones really responsible for those deaths, the mechanist's role is limited. Even so, she probably feels that the burden of these dark actions are entirely on her shoulders, and feels an amount of guilt to match. If it can be said that the greatest punishment to a rational mind is the guilt of the crime, then to feel guilt for a greater crime is already a punishment too great. This kind of thing, being responsible for atrocities like this, can lead one to suicide
Agreed. Her mad scientist potential isn't the only reason she seriously needs a chaperone 24/7
I dont agree with blaming the robobrains. The mechanist is the reason they were operational in the first place. She programs these robots and doesn't even know what they are really doing? That is very irresponsible on her part and people die because of her ignorance. She is entirely responsible for those deaths.
Compare this to if I wrote a computer program and it does not work as intended and instead caused harm to the hardware it's running on. Do I place the responsibility on the program for not working correctly or the programmer who created the program. Exactly. It is the job of the programmer/creator to make sure it works right. It is not about intent but action.
The robobrains were intentionally fabricating false reports through the order misinterpretation. She was receiving reports that "20 lives saved. 20 hostiles destroyed" This would be confirmed with all the rest of the systems checks she could perform. However as seen by the scientists reconditioning the human brains there's no way to know how the human brain part will act apart from asking it and that was where the problem laid. the original brain's personalities reasserting themselves and as seen in the audio logs only the insane and angry people got chosen, the psychopath who swore he'd find a way to kill them all.
This means that short of actually going out with them there was no way for Isabel to know what they were doing apart from the reports the robots were making. She took every possible precaution, even changing their programming in a way she admitted would kill fewer raiders but would also eliminate any possibility of harming innocents. She took every precaution she could take. It was not enough. In my eyes she would be found to be "Bloody stupid" but not actually liable for anything any more then a designer of a car is liable when a slippery road causes the car to skid when going around a corner and going off a cliff. The car manufacturer made brakes to the best of their ability but it still was not enough. She did everything she could to achieve a noble goal safely and failed. That's not her fault.
The brainrobot were clearly evil, when they did the practice in the control place with mannequins they not shoot the ones of the innocents, they only did it when they know they were unwatch. That's evil, the brainbot knows exactly what the mission was, and twist it.
@@stikibunn i agree, but she probably didn't even know the brains were from those of the evil either, I think if anyone was in her position its possible they would have done the same thing...isn't that a defense? "If put in the same position, wouldn't you make the same mistake?" would you label someone who genuinely thinks an intruder is there to hurt them, but accidentally kills a drunk man who stubbled into the wrong home a murderer? we can twist it all we want "she should have done this or that" but...even if she did, who knows? what if the robobrains turned on her and killed her anyway then made even more.
I always try to be the good guy in fallout, so if there's an option to spare someone who needs to be spared, I will usually spare them.
I modded Isabel into a follower using the nexus, added her to my posse of followers (nick, Preston, cait, my wife Emily, codsworth and Peter (my great grandson if you have the Fusion city mod) and I gave her back the armor, adding a cape and a jet pack.
I like to think if it had been part of the story I'd have said something like, "Isabel, the Mechanist was a good thing, you just did it in the wrong way, come with us and we'll help save the Commonwealth together, people may not initially like you, but if you run with the minutemen, there's no way you'll be called a villain"
Which mod?
@ it's literally called the Isabel Cruz follower mod. But be careful because it's super shitty and buggy right now, completely derailing the quest. IDK how the hell that works but it's why Isabel no longer runs with me :(
So basically Iseabell's arc is the old "The way to hell is paved by good intentions."
Yeah absolutely
And the Institute, and the Brotherhood
I just wish we could make her a companion so that with her help we can truly create a better world perhaps we could even allow her to find redemption (i would also love to see how she would interact with DiMa)
I let her live because I think that if you are genuinely sorry for a mistake that you made, you should get a second chance. I am not saying that every criminal on earth just needs to say sorry and they can be forgiven, but I think that some of them, much like the Mechanist, made a mistake and should be forgiven.
Joseph Blevins How do you determine who's should be forgiven and who's lying? what if someone smart enough to convincingly lie about their intentions, like say a robotics genius.
Liam Prieto exactly, I refuse to believe a mechanical genius could be completely oblivious to what was actually going on. Voice recording would be the least needed to see her wrongdoings. But also the data dumps she mentions. Does she actually think every single fucking encounter every single robot gets into is full of "hostiles"
This is all looking past her seemingly endless supply of human brains
I also refuse to believe that if the robot can see, there's no way to record it.
She also said it herself, even if a small percentage of the reported killing was innocent the numbers would be insane. She not only deserves to die, she probably knew this shit was happening
I can tell you from experience that machines do lie even without AI. The best example is trying to code a behavior that a system wasn't designed for, which is what she was doing so I can sympathize as one engineer to another. Robobrains weren't made to be police, they were designed to kill, she thought that she could find a way to make them into police, we are all guilty of that at one point, believing that we are more capable than we truly are. We don't execute engineers for failure like this, they lose their license, livelihood, maybe they go to prison for 5-10 years for true criminal negligence, and are stuck reliving the same mistake over again.
TrexZombieExperiment even though the Mechanist built the robots she wouldn't know if they were lying cause she believed they were following orders so what is the point of checking further into it if she thought it was fine and no problems
@@_skud The data dumps showed both 'Hostiles Killed' and 'Lives Saved'. Also the robots were made to act as machines of justice against raiders and super mutants, of course nearly every encounter they get in would be full of hostiles.
The 'endless' supply of brains is just the reserve of the military project, they were mass producing these things, weren't they? They even hired Rob-Co to make the mass production more efficient.
Most of the times we see TV's in game they don't show anything. The video stuff made by Isabel would look like the holotape games at best. The Institute made some screens, but they are also very advanced. Even if she could make screens, you think she'd get some popcorn and throw on the 'My Robots Kill People for 100 Hours Straight' holotapes? She can barley stand the thought of having people die in the first place. Same with the voice recordings, why would she willingly watch those?
She took the 'let 10 guilty free, to spare 1 innocent' philosophy to her programming, they were programmed with every precaution in place to prevent innocent deaths.
Also (In reply to the first reply), intelligence in one category doesn't translate to others, Isabel probably wouldn't be able to 'lie about her intentions' just because she's good at making robots. She even says that robots are all she knows, and she isn't good with people (The entire reason she used The Mechanist as a cover).
The decision I made on whether the mechanist lived or died depended on my character. As a Minuteman I chose to give her a chance at redemption, as a Paladin of the Brotherhood I executed her for the crime of hording and misusing technology, as both Railroad and Institute I let her live because she represented a valuable resource (though with very different aims obviously). Finally, with any playthrough as a true raider I killed her as a potential rival.
Sensible. From the BOS POV she's proven unable to resist getting in over her head in technology, ergo is death or jail (and the jails are in ruins). I disagree on the raider bit though - she's obviously very gullible and easy to manipulate, you already know her buttons and heart strings, and she's ridiculously talented but not talented enough to be not scared @#$#@less of you.
r3dp9 Yeah, but my raider characters (I tend to restart after a while rather than keep one character) were both, shall we say, a little disconnected with reality and wouldn't have thought it through like that.
If I was the BoS I'd recruit her whether she wanted to or not. Keep her on the Prydwin and give her all the robots she wanted. Just make sure they aren't going to do stuff on their own.
Your level and depth of analysis never ceases to amaze, any little detail that's to be found and you find it...I agree with you 100% on this one, Although that seems to be the case with most of your videos. Keep up the good work. Its amazing how much content you've covered in the fallout series.
“You think I’m the enemy?” Well sir you are wearing the most state of the art power suit in known history welding an explosive machine gun accompanied by a companion that looks as if it was built in a kids gundam show.. So i have my reasons
next video: "Is it moral to kill Oxhorn?"
Bat Mon first go defend settlements
here, I'll mark it on your map
No, this is my ASMR right now lol.
Bat Mon yes
Bat Mon yup
It's funny how the text says:
- My "reign of terror"?
but the characters actually and clearly says:
- "MY" reign of terror?
"We need to talk Face to Face" proceeds to NOT take his power Armor helmet of
@@ajon6487 want a tip? Spell correctly. People take you more seriously if you've got good grammar.
@@DanF5264 Dude shut up it was a typo
@@gutsbigfan I don't quite remember what JAM said since they deleted their reply. If you thought I was speaking to the commenter, then no, I wasn't. I don't remember what JAM said, but I have a feeling they were insulting the commenter with actual bad grammar, and not just a typo or something. PS, one of the comment's 7 likes is mine.
I feel like this story is a good example of how a disconnect with reality can have dire effects on good intentions. Even the first time, I came into it thinking we were dealing with another wasteland tyrant but, it was just a small, nervous woman who wanted to help people, who’s intentions backfired due to a few things not 100 under her control. I understood the good intentions, and it clearly weighs on her mind after the fact if you keep her alive, the twisted truth she received while buried in her lair, disconnected from reality.
Overall a nice change to all the villains and controversy of the rest of the commonwealth. (though the morality of robobrains are rather questionable, she was simply using tools she found to try to help people so it’s not as if she had nefarious intentions, as proven in the video)
Roses are black
Violets are black
the Trees are black
the Grass is black
OHH GOD EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE
General George M. Martine or you're colorblind
That one shitty CZcams commenter oooooo sheeet
General George M. Martine heh nice
General George M. Martine I DON'T WANT TO SET THE WORLD ON.......FIREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEE
I personally allowed her to live. Honestly I wish that there had been an option to have her as a companion. Maybe some unique dialogue if you are dressed as the Silver Shroud, and she is dressed as the Mechanist for some missions.
M'aiq The Liar there is unique Silver Shroud dialogue
I know. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about if you were allowed to use her as a companion and then doing missions. There could be some added dialogue for those. Especially if you are dressed at the Silver Shroud and She is dressed as the Mechanist.
I was wondering about the DP on the Mechanist drawing. Of course Oxhorn would have the answer ..and the full backstory. Well done.
I think it's reasonable to argue that, when it comes to assigning blame for the deaths, Isabel isn't as much at fault as her Robobrain lieutenants are. Now, it's equally fair to point out that the Robobrains are, at best, insane -- even a brief chat with Jezebel demonstrated how badly their logic was warped, even if it was still technically logic; additionally, while Isabel certainly started up production and set events in motion, the Robobrains were managing most, if not all, of the moment-to-moment operations within the Commonwealth, such that Isabel didn't need to be involved beyond reading through the post-mission data dumps.
In my opinion, while Miss Cruz was clearly mistaken in several areas of her approach -- including using Robobrains and not *asking* any Commonwealth citizens if they actually *wanted* her help -- her goals and intentions were noble, and even align with the Sole Survivor's. It's tragic that things turned out as they did, because I genuinely think that, with a more personable approach on her part, Isabel Cruz might've actually been a great force for good in the Commonwealth... perhaps, if the Sole Survivor had met her before she started, things may have been very different.
(...It's *also* tragic that, thanks to a hiccup in my game, I didn't even have a chance to peacefully resolve things with her -- she'd turned hostile the instant the ramp dropped, and since I'd avoided the Wiki or any videos for my first playthrough to avoid spoilers, I didn't even know the encounter had bugged out on me. Doubly tragic, even, because I could've *really* used those shipments of supplies, especially since I turned the old facility into my main supply hub -- sending carrier Sentry Bots all over the place really helps speed things along.)
I think ur incorrect about the fate of Canterbury commons:
They were the trading hub in the captiol wasteland, and were responsible for sending out the caravans, I think its possible that Derek either joined one of these caravans and got killed or got over his obsession with the mechanist and just sold his drawings to a passing trader. I wouldn't say the entire town migrated to the commonwealth espically after the brotherhood kills most of threats in the captiol wasteland.
(23:30) But the Fallout 4 world *can* have a justice system, if you build the civilization to support it. That's the Minuteman goal. You can judge her yourself, or you can keep her alive (possibly under guard) until the Commonwealth is stable enough to give her a fair trial.
Oxhorn "If you want to talk, we do this face to face"
Also Oxhorn: *Wears Power Armor with helmet*
My first play through I never killed the mechanist.
I love how fallout had you choose throughout the game big moral decisions on what direction to take.
I think letting Isabella live is the right thing to do. She was sure she was doing the right thing. There really is no way to fore see this malfunction. The brain is very complicated. Even the slightest non leathal modification could have any unforeseen results. To simplify, it's basically playing poker or Russia roulette with people's lives. I believe that under the watchful eye of the, "Sole Survivor", Issabella's robots, excluding robobrains, could still do a lot of good for the Commonwealth.
The only reason in my mind to morally execute someone, is if their continued existence is almost certain to result in considerable social harm. Once reasoned with, the Mechanist simply doesn't fall into this category. There's no justice in punishing her, it would only be for selfish revenge.
Reshy Poo You can't predict the future though, so how do you know she won't cause more harm? because she says she won't? No one thought Willie Horton was gonna do anything either.
Reshy Poo in my eyes if they can redeem themselves
Taking out Kellog was called for
@Reshy Poo I'm sure it's just the wording and you don't mean it, but YES, there is Justice in punishing her. That's how the world works. You can't just leave someone be simply because they are sorry. Actions lead to consequences, and she definitely needs to be published in some way, even if it isn't a death sentence.
Hmm yeah that makes sense
I think she would’ve been a cool companion with a useful perk when at high affinity with her 👍🏽
18:35 there's a less tragic and more probable explanation I think. It could easily be that Derek is still living a good life at Cantebury Commons and simply traded some of his childhood art to a passing caravan. Maybe someone in the caravan was a comicbook fan and was willing to give the kid a few extra caps or rations for it. And that's a more positive and probable way the art made it's way to the Commonwealth.
There is a simple test. Is the future of the Commonwealth made better by killing Isabelle? Is it made worse? Or is it unchanged. if Isabelle dies, any positive contribution she could make is lost. Even if she were to do nothing further good or bad, then you would only have zero difference between letting her live and letting her die. In short, the potential for her to improve the commonwealth (even by so much as acting as a merchant for the sole survivor) makes her a positive influence and makes the only real sense. There is no point in killing someone who no longer poses a threat, even now modern judicial systems are focused on compensation and reformation, not 'justice'.
you asked the mechanist to put down her helmet but didn't put yours down , I've found it quite funny ^^
I've never killed her in any of my playthrough because she seems so innocent almost like a child (but you don't let your child plays with dangerous toys such as rocket launcher)
I think she should be punished, but not as severely as being killed, she should work hard to make at least as much good as she has done bad things, by helping the minutemen for example or the faction you are siding with. In my minutemen playthrough I like to say that she's building the robots for my settlements and is in charge of the maintenance.
The mechanist lair is about to become a super hero headquarter with silver shroud grognak the mechanist and a few more I've created myself, and together they help the commonwealth against real threats, this way isabel find a new purpose and as long as she doesn't build robobrains anymore she will be remembered as a hero and not a villain
Kevin Alibert I killed her in my brotherhood playthrough only because she allianced with machines
That's a very nice comment and you're right she doesn't deserves to be killed she just wanted to help but she made a mistake and killed much people and she's sorry you notice how she just can't believe it she would be a great settler.
Let her live and periodically re-visit her. She'll tip you off on rogue robots that got loose. These become minor quests you can use for xp.
“Let’s talk...face to face.”
*remains in the toughest power armor with active jet pack*
Da-Vorzon, ouch XD
I let her live, she reminded me so much of myself and i felt so sorry for her. She has to live with the guilt of being the evil she originally seeked to destroy, that is punishment enough on itself if you would think she even deserves to be punished for her actions. If would like to see her dead, wouldn't you do exactly the same you want to kill her for? I mean isnt she innocent herself in that she didn't know what her robots were doing? She actually fight on the same side like you do,even against the same enemy. So locking her up might be just, though I wouldn't see any sense in that because she is not about to hurt anyone, she never was. As Oxhorn said, nobody is there to witness her punishment, so there would be no point in doing that.
She reminded you of yourself? You tried to save the world, too?
Ooh! Can I take control of your robot facility after I super sledge you into a wall?
Well, not exactly innocent. If she had killed someone I loved, I probably had killed her
@@theelite1234 but she didn't really kill anyone, it wasn't her fault that after doing thousands of calculations and tests that her robots were misinterpreting orders. She should be punished slightly though for not paying attention and recognizing it earlier
"So locking her up..."
That gives me a great idea~
*scrolling through nexus mods*
It is justified but not moral
This is a very important distinction.
I'd say understandable more than anything. I wouldn't say it's totally justified but I wouldn't blame anyone who kills her.
Sole Survivor: kills a bot
Mechanist: you are the enemy of the people
You can buy Protectron's Gaze from her. Once you sell her other weapon she will equip it and couple of days later you will be able to buy it from her. I am always doing it in my playthroughs.
D.P. = Deadpool
Karl Tindale
D.P. = Double Penetration
Derp Picture
Dick poop
I would have loved an Isabelle companion! It would have been great to learn more about her, watch her grow as a person, and maybe even a romance option for Nora/Nate.
10:40 these little robobrains are crazy adorable
Great video and she was trying to help the commonwealth and her robots went rogue and she sounds sad about all the people who died from her robots. I love the charcters in the fallout universe
your the best fallout 4 CZcamsr ever oxhorn I hope you keep doing vids like this when fallout 5 comes out
fireblastgamer That won't happened
Elder Maxson are you sure
fireblastgamer It took them 7 years to make Fallout 4!
he will still be able to make videos on it
fireblastgamer juicehead,alchestbreach, evilviking13, many a true a nerd, vynlicpumagaming, lots of fallout 4 youtubers!
You should create a playlist with these videos and name it "Is It Moral?"
YES
I WAS LEGIT JUST THINKING THAT BC I LOVE THOSE VIDEOS
"No more hiding. We talk, face to face"
Said the man staying in his 1059 pounds of walking power armor-tank
Hey Oxhorn, I've not yet played to the end of this story line, but would have agreed to let her live. Now, seeing your video, I have additional reason, namely, the settlement and store she provides. But I want especially to thank you for this video because of my son, who is 9. He insisted I watch this and I am very impressed and pleased by both your logic and how you presented it. I operate a website called Criminal Justice Law International and one of my goals is to impact the global justice system for the better, so Bravo. Your video reflects the kind of morality and sense of justice I want my child to develop and which I promote on my site. Thank you on a job well done. You have a new subscriber.
Side Comment: Why no Mechanist companion... I'd love to have her along, her voice actor isn't annoying and itd be nice to have her along to sort of atone for her actions and help the commonwealth like she wanted to.
I believe we cannot deem it moral to kill her nor even just by the strictest standards unless we are first prepared to accept that by the same laws, *someone* in the Commonwealth would (rightfully) say our characters would absolutely be subject to the same punishment ourselves for what we've done on previous missions. No matter what option you take, you're going to run into someone who'll claim that it's morally wrong to take the stance you have. Also, there is one mission in particular which you complete for the Railroad which completely puts you as a bad guy.
Spoiler Alert:
The mission in which you're sent to retrieve Blackbird pits you against raiders who each carry a blood contract. If you look at the monitors, you find that all of them were tortured and forced to sign the contract. None of them wanted to be fighting you, and yet, unless you stealthed in, got Blackbird's information, and stealthed out again, you basically killed hostages forced to fight against you. How, then, can anyone go through that mission and then deem themselves worthy of carrying out a 'just' sentence on the Mechanist when they're equally guilty in at least one provable circumstance?
And by the way, nobody in the Railroad has yet asked about or cared about that, btw, which is one of many reasons why they are never going to be good guys in my book.
End spoiler.
One thing that is skipped over in this is that if we are discussing justice, we must also include intent and circumstances. Self-preservation and the preservation of others has always been considered a just reason for a civilian to use lethal force provided the circumstances were deemed to have warranted it.
Isabel grew up on a settlement. Take some time to put yourself into her head. No place is safe. Humans are the prey of raiders, feral ghouls, mutants and the Institute. Hell, your best friend may turn out tomorrow to be a synth who works for the Institute and who turns around and attacks your settlement. It's a testament to the persistence of the human race that everyone we meet isn't sitting in a corner sucking their thumb and quivering.
Isabel wanted to stop that as best she could.
There is absolutely no difference in what Isabel seeks to do with the robots and what, for example, Preston Garvey sought to do with the Minutemen (or rather, sat around on his ass and *didn't* do until you came along). The difference is, as someone whose skills are not combat related but rather, tech-related, she had to find a different way. Yeah, what she had to work with wasn't perfect, but it's a post-Apocalyptic wasteland, and I expect -everyone- is used to making do with what they can get. Anyone who has the time should go take a good look at the materials put out in the U.S. and England during WW2 about 'Make Do and Mend' -- I expect that mindset, quadrupled, is at the core of every settler now.
While part of me is a bit horrified at the whole 'let's rip out human brains and use them as processors' project which was initially carried out, my horror is directed at the ethics of the practice, not the intended targets. If you read the files on the initial subjects, they're criminals of the absolute worst type - multiple murders, you name it. I have no sympathy for them.
So if I were in Isabel's shoes, I'd probably agree with her. They're what's available, they're the tools she has to use and if anything, it would be justice to make them save lives to atone for the ones they took. And no, murdering someone in cold blood isn't the same as killing someone to defend yourself or others.
The only moral action in this case is to spare her. She's then able to help you protect others with her supplies and she gives you a guarded settlement. Really, you can't ask for much more. It's probably not the hero she longed to be, but it says much for her that when the time comes, she admits her culpability and is willing to redirect her efforts.
Side note: Speaking as an introvert who has family members with autism, I think she's not just introverted, but possibly autistic.
Edit: I do notice a recurrent theme here, though, with the 'science gone wrong' and factions not thinking through to logical conclusions -- or being so blinded by what they intend that they fail to see the forest for the trees, as it were.
Two flaws in your reasoning
1) People who were tortured and impressed into a murderous gang aren’t culpable for their actions - wrong!! Being tortured doesn’t diminish the ability to know right from wrong. You claim duress, but those raiders had their own weapons after they signed this “contract”. They could have resisted, fought back, broke out and ran. But they didn’t. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but they still did it. Their torture mitigates their guilt, but it doesn’t exculpatory them from it. So, the Sole Survivor wasn’t morally wrong to kill them.
2) Intent and circumstance are mitigating factors, but what Isabel is guilty of is depraved indifference. She sent out these robots on a potentially dangerous field test, but never accompanied them on that field test to verify their operations herself. She had ample anecdotal evidence that Robobrains creatively misinterpret orders, but never looked to verify that her methods to prevent that actually worked. She just blindly accepted what her robots’ sensors told her, knowing full well there is a large possibility of the Robobrains skewing that data according to their interpretation. She didn’t take this important step because she is scared? Shy? That is indifference and negligence. And all the good intentions in this world cannot excuse negligence.
@@brainconqueror8095 Negligence makes it negligible manslaughter, that crime does not have the death penalty.
Oxhorn out of the videos I have watched on CZcams I have enjoyed yours the most your theories and conspiracy theories are very interesting congrats to you for making them and thank you
I finished Automatron DLC for the first time last night. Before watching this video and actually that final moral decision of killing The Mechanist or not actually had me thinking it really hard. Actually I loved that twist. After all we've been through I thought The Mechanist was some crazy dude with a twisted version of mercy and justice... But it was just a girl who was victim of her own intellect and good intentions, the cherry on top was that she recognized it. I personally chose mercy.
I loved this quest line -- and the implications. To me its a hard call. In our society she would be held accountable for her actions. Problem is in this universe there is no law since the bombs fell. She should be held accountable, but to what means. Pickman was a sick psycho, and while he was killing bad guys, this person was trying to help other unaware of the atrocities the Robobrains were committing in the Commonwealth.
i know thoes robots out there are killing people but
another settlement needs our help
OH GOD
@8:08... Well that was an interesting thing to hear while listening to CZcams in the background...
That chat with Isabel reminds me of Powder from Arcane. Episode 3 specifically. That realization that you thought you'd help but actually caused irreversable damage and the mountain of guild, confusion, fear and terror that sets in.... that gets to me. Isabel Cruz is in my opinion one of the best characters in Fallout 4.
Man, I had so much fun with this DLC.
I've never killed her as I think she should be spared.
Living with the guilt is a far better punishment to have than killing her, you simply achieve nothing by killing her, I believe nothing is worse than living with guilt. ( For those who have a guilty conscious like Cruz does, but for those who don't seem to have a care and knew what exactly was going on, yea then they deserve to die)
I do think Bethesda could have done much more with the outcome ie an option to have her as a companion or have her as part of another quest to get her in to a faction, like the doctor lei into the bos or like the scientist from greygarden to the institute, or even as a quest where you need to chose what faction as both factions would be fighting to obtain her.
Lordaros Nothing is gained by killing her? That's because she hasn't met me yet.
Lol, I came back on to edit my post to refine it a tad better and saw this had to laugh, you got a good point there lol
depends on your style of play through
I'm terrible with role paying games, I can only play as myself as nothing else feels right.
After watching these helpful videos im from maui hi had no idea that the silver shroud costume . I found this really helpful thank you
It would be cool if you could convince Isabel to use the facility to bolster the ranks of your preferred faction.
I flipped shit when the Mechanist took of her helmet and it was the voice actor from Artemis from young justice
Damn, I never noticed. Props to you sir
I wonder how Paladin Danse would react I'd love to see his dialog in this situation.
Eli Kirkeeng You need an Automatron with a special upgrade. Christ.
Its eather you don't have the game or your too lazy to find it out for your self.
Eli Kirkeeng Lol I’m done robots and synths are made so differently
What happens though if you take Ada with you and get her to open all the doors and then exit and come back with a different, non robot companion?
If I recall correctly you can do this quest with Codsworth or Curie (in her pre-synth robot body), so they have reaction lines I think.
Do all the doors close back up again or do they remain open?
I'll have to try that at some point in the near future - I've got the preceding quest open at the moment.
"if you want to talk, we do this face to face"
>keeps X-01 helmet on
That's the understatement of the year has got to be the best line in Fallout 4