CAN YOU MAKE TITANIUM & STEEL DAMASCUS?!?!
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- čas přidán 17. 06. 2018
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My name is Alec Steele and I am a 20 year old blacksmith from Norfolk in the United Kingdom. I upload a vlog from my day at the workshop almost every single day. Lots of sparks, lots of making, lots of fantastic-ness. Great to have you here following along!
What do I make? LOTS of Damascus steel, knives, swords, axes and more and of course, I always love hearing your suggestions for future projects in the comments below!
So if you want to see lots of forging fun, blacksmithing badassery, cinematic hammering and more in my Daily Vlog (#Daily_Steele) - please subscribe here by hitting that red button!
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Alec Steele Blacksmith 2018 - Zábava
Hey Alec, before you do your next metallurgy experiment, you should lookup the crystal structure of each material you're working with as different crystal structures wont easily form interfaces with each other. In this case Titanium is a hexagonal closed packed (HCP) crystal and the steel is a body centered cubic (BCC) crystal which is why the two metals won't easily alloy (stick to each other). In your copper and nickel damascus video both copper and nickel are a face-centered cubic (FCC) crystal which is why the metals were able to alloy (stick) to one another to form the billet.
There are some really cool periodic tables that tell you the crystal structure of elements so you can more easily make all kinds of Damascus.
Also, if you're working with alloys (steels) the crystal structure of the alloy will usually be that of whatever is the most abundant in the metal. For example, steel is carbon and iron, carbon has a Diamond Cubic(DC) crystal structure while iron has a Body Centered Cubic Structure, but since there is wayyyy more iron than carbon in steel, the steel has the same crystal structure of iron (BCC).
it'd be really cool if you did some tri-damascus, with like copper, bronze and aluminum!!! Keep up the great videos!!
Good point Marcus. Just one clarification - at forging temperatures steel actually has a FCC structure. C-steels are generally forged at higher temperatures than Ti alloys.
PS. Perfect timing - two years later :D
Man, I wish my material science professor went over that better, I found myself thinking more of chemistry and liquid metal solutions
My thoughts exactly. But then how will a successfull weld of Fe and Ti cool down? The steel part will revert to Face-Center-Cubic, how would the join surface behave? One sure thing is: the cooling should be very slow. @@jarekad
How to make a titanium bomb with Alec Steele:
1) Weld titanium to steel to ensure the possibility of trapped oxygen inside
2) Put in forge to cause extreme heat
3) Squeeze with hydraulic press to create high pressure
4) Hit with hammer to create sudden shock
5) BOOM!! 💥
relax there's oxides coating everything and the effective surface area is not significant
Its all killed flat and clamped with a kant twist prior to welding. There's not nearly enough air inside to cause any kind of significant pressure, and the oxygen content of the air inside of those potential spaces is definitely not enough to cause an explosion.
A titanium self injury bomb at best
Bruh. Titanium thermite
Me, sitting here with a titanium plate in my collarbone: cool.
Titanium is good stuff
Haha same bike crash
Titanium and bone damaskus🤯🤯
impossible, but interesting
I've got a titanium bracket holding my C3-C7 vertebrae in my neck together. Yay fusions.
i love titanium. its such a tease. its super light, super strong, has a high melting point, and fucking explodes.
To work with titanium in the lab normally I'm working with TiO2 (titanium dioxide) mainly due to the fact that titanium reacts with just about every oxidising agent under the sun (sulfur, oxygen, nitrogen and the halogens) and if it forms TiO2 you're buggered its pretty much the most stable metal oxide very difficult to get it to revert or go back to Ti(0) it loves to be Ti(4) unless you pump it with hydrogen at high temps. we compress our compound into a pellet under about 10 tons of pressure then keep a constant argon flow over it at high temp (1200-1500 C) for anything between 2 and 72 hours, the high pressure just tries to get the grains as close as physically possible, (titanium forms grains much smaller than iron therefore they don't tend to mix correctly unless they are under silly pressure) and the high temp to attempt to dissolve a reacting compound into the structure.
I suspect the alloy of titanium, if you say its from the medical engineering side, is probably Ti-6Al-7Nb, it contains about 5% Aluminium and 5% niobium these also like to be in a well oxidised state, additionally niobium doesn't exist in an alloyed state its more like islands of niobium spattered throughout the structure. The main issue with this alloy is that the titanium tends to exist in a close packed array, locking the titanium into a position where it cannot migrate across the grain boundary into the steel that you used. At the low(ish) temps you are using you don't have enough energy to force the lattice to break down and any higher temp without an inert atmosphere would be way too sketchy.
Hope this explains some of your issues you've been experiencing, you could try manganese, zinc, nickel or molybdenum instead these don't tend to be so volatile under an oxidative atmosphere, at least no more than iron.
Truly phenomenal advice and insights! Thak you!
Thank*
Wow
Pleas keep smashing different metals! The suspense if you can do it or not is fantastic!
I'd also suggest using the Press rather than the Power-hammer. As you've seen, hot titanium does not like to be struck, and it'll only get worse at hotter temps.
"What's the worst that could happen?"
Thermite reaction eats the forge, probably. That would be bad.
SivakAurak noooo, forges are replaceable, there are way worse things that could happen than that.
Yes, this is technically possible (though "eating the forge" is out of the question). Titanium is next to aluminum on the metal reactivity series, so if enough iron oxide built up on the steel surfaces, pure titanium at high temperatures could definitely initiate such a reaction. This is unlikely to occur though because titanium itself is so easily oxidized, and thus you're far more likely to have a pure steel surface engaging with a TiO2 surface, and this is not an energetically favourable condition for such a reaction. It would be like trying to get Al2O3 to have a thermite reaction with iron.
if that had happened, the title of the video would be sure about that, including a thumbnail of the hammer igniting fire,
Would make an awesome video thou.
If the Ti ever starts to burn cover it in sand... unless you want to dissociate hydrogen and oxygen in the water and create water agsin when it explosively recombines...
Is it just me or does Alec look like the kid with glasses from Stuart little?
He grew up duh
Stuart little is a warcriminal
i cannot unsee that
And Ralphie from A Christmas Story!
imagine waiting for your parents with the new brother and they show up with a fucking rat
try to fuse gold and titanium to make an iron man armor ^^ (edit: maybe just a glove ^^)
BlackNox_ sounds expensive as hell
What would the properties be of such an alloy? Hardness of Titanium and the malleability of Gold?
Gold in titanium/gold alloys typically was used to create a more temperature resistant alloy. From both cold and heat shocks. While still retaining the strength of titanium.
i always assumed the gold looking parts were a titanium nitride coating like on drill bits
@@garethbaus5471 You are correct but he was referring to the first Iron Man movie. Tony Stark makes the suit out of the gold/titanium alloy. Mostly for the resistance to temperature shock at high altitudes.
Just think, if Alec's parents had been called Wood, we'd all be watching a cabinet-making video now :)
Rob Fenwitch 10/10 would still watch a bombastic well-filmed show about woodworking by Alec Woode
i feel sadly.. he would still be setting fire to his wood work somehow XD
Har Har! This one joke makes my day.
The ironic point is his dad is a carpenter.
LOL
A simple suggestion with doing this kind of thing with ti would be using your press. much safer then banging on it with a power hammer and ti fuses better under pressure. glad you did not blow up or burn down your shop though! thanks for the share and remember to stay awesome!
When i weld titanium we purge it 100% till it’s to room temp. I got a few welds on some navy ships. We had a sleeve that had a window to go around the pipe joints and you weld in the window
Mill a Steel sarcophagus of sorts that can fully encase say? two smaller, precisely machined Titanium blocks each w their own individual and separate seats in the sarcophagus. Once you've machined the Ti blocks, degrease...then electroplate them with a fair layer of Nickel; once that's done ...THEN electroplate the Nickel plated Ti blocks with a layer of Gold. Adjust the sarcophagus via mill again if needed. Degrease (maybe etch partially, or abrade partially the seats for the Ti blocks...i.e., stripes of abrasion and non-abrasion?), seat the dual plated Ti blocks into one half of the steel sarcophagus, then set the lid/other half to fully encase the Ti. Weld the sarcophagus closed...then send it to hell in the forge, high heat! Then begin to shape the metal .....IF YOU DARE!!!
Couple of things; Always use coolant with a Roughmill (the 4 cutter with teeths) (sry dont know the english name cause dutch to english doesnt translate 1:1 that often in machining terms)
Always Use coolant on Titanium when machining, Ti is self hardening so no cooling means you hardening the outside layer of the Ti real fast as the tool absorbs all the heat hardens the material and therfore hardens more and destroys the tool.
Also the Spindle speed is less then 25% of how you fast you would cut Stainless while Feed stays the same or sometimes higher (depends on diameter)
Working as a CNC machiner and programmer and (for me) old school lathe and mill for 13 years as prof and done all types of titanium from grade 1 to Aircraft grade (grade 6)
would love to teach you about Machining!
Keep it up! love your work! :D
Thank you 🙏🙏🙏
Not sure which mill tool you're actually referring to, but the first one Alec used is usually known as a Roughing End Mill, the second he used with the carbide inserts is usually referred to as a face mill in ye olde English.
Well basicly with any titanium machining you use Coolant, also with grinding you cant go nuts on it either also keep it cool otherwise it will destroy grinding belts.
But yes the roughing end mill, but wasnt completely right only with most basic steel dont rly have to use it (But usealy i do cause i dont brush the material off i use the whole length of tools / full power of machines)
Also ty i need to learn the english tool names and jargon.
Love how much I learn reading the comments after watching the videos. Thanks, Robbert!
That ti64 your working will be alot easier to work around 1900°F. I spent 5 years forging aircraft parts out this and many other metals. Also let it soak at temperature for 10 to 15 min. This should help with cold shuts.
Matthew McDannald I was just about to say a higher temp would make it easier to work with. My only possible concern would be that because the steel moves so much easier at high temps it might create a small gap in the center of the “sandwich”. Oxides can then form which will refuse the welding of the two metals.
Maybe an air-hardening steel instead of the 1095? Might give a wider window for fusion.
Andy Thomas I think you are on to something. Using a stainless steel should work better cause it has a higher melting temp closer to Titanium.
The main problem is not forging Ti, is bonding to steel. I would use a very low carbon steel in order to prevent the formation of titanium carbide which is hard and brittle, as well as avoiding oxygen somehow
@@leonardoulian764*EDIT: I just realised that you meant using a bonding agent, like flux, between the layers to prevent oxygen from getting in there, and not working the metal in an oxygen-free environment. The rest of this comment is therefore irrelevant, since your idea, in fact, makes sense.*
Setting up a workshop in such a way that you can isolate it from the atmosphere in order to create an oxygen-free work space sounds like it would be beyond his means. Besides, I'm not sure the forge can burn without an oxidizer to create combustion, he'd need an electrically heated one, and I bet those don't come cheap. Not to mention that he then would have to wear a tank of compressed breathing gas, which would be EXTREMELY dangerous around high-temperature materials. It'd be like working with an armed bomb on his back, just waiting for a spark to hit or a seal to fail.
Clarification: I'm sure that such workshops COULD be created, but I don't believe he can afford one. And I don't know how else you'd avoid oxygen throughout the entire process.
I think some 1095 blue spring steel with copper would look beautiful.
"the forge which I am going to light now" sounded like he just remembered to do that
Hi Alec, titanium and steel are very hard to bond. Though a way to get it working is to use a thin silver layer in between which is usually done by silver plating the steel. Good luck!
sounds like a good idea that is fairly easy to do.
Wouldn't that just be soldering them together?
I don't think the silver will melt at these temperatures to be considered soldering. I think it would be more like a surface prep for mating dissimilar metals since the plating would only be microns thick and hammering the pieces would warp the plating enough for it not to be continuous.
Don't use steel. Use straight elemental iron. There's too much crap, besides oxygen, getting in the way of a bond.
Titanium likes carbon a lot, more than steel, so you'll get TiC and Iron, and those don't bond either.
Hey Alec, as a knifemaker who has made LOTS of titanium dive and edc knives. I can tell you that titanium does not bond well with ferric metals, i have heard some cool things about Titanium-Nickle alloys, maybe make a Titanium-Nickle damascus? May also exhibit some metamaterial properties such as temp-shape memory. I would love to see you try this!
What is the best metal for knives in for opinion?
@@jonathanerickson1543 Steel. It's also the only metal for knives. Ti-alloys can be used in climbing and seawater diving apparel, i.e., for emergency use only.
MrZetor got it. Yeah I’m familiar with titanium diving knives to a degree. Have an aunt who used to have a dive shop and they always fascinated me. I’d love to learn to make knives myself. What about TRUE Damascus because I found out the other day that Damascus steel generally is a misused term for stacked metals?
you can get titanium and steel to bond to each other. it just requires certain conditions. however once done its apparently pretty strong.
@@jonathanerickson1543 true damascus doesnt exist the recipe was lost long ago
why would anyone dislike a vid of a guy doing what he likes and educating viewers in the process of metal making?
I almost disliked and bailed early because I thought the yelling and forced enthusiasm, coupled with annoying elevator music, shaky cam and jerky edits were hard to watch, but I pushed through and enjoyed it after I got past that. Definitely not a channel I would enjoy watching frequently, but I didn’t dislike this entirely.
You can start with laminations of spring steel and titanium leaf and forge them together with explosion welding.
Alec is the type of guy to love brushing his teeth,since he can always touch up on his polishing skills
One thing you should know about titanium is that its mealting is so high in comparison to most materials, and while it becomes somewhat maluable, it wont break, this means that you cant for a dimascus with steel and titanium unless you find a way to trap the molten steel between the almost molten titanium. Titanium takes several thousand degrees of heat to mealt, but it isnt a perfect conductor, so if you can put enough electricity through it, you may be able to get it hot enough. I'm not sure just how much heat it takes, but i know that it can take at least 3000 degreas of heat withought melting. Also most of the sparking is probably impurities in the titanium, including titanium oxide, however if you can expose it to enough carbon monoxide, any titanium oxide should act simmilar to thermite, releasing a ton of energy as the carbon monoxide rips away the oxygen, possibly heating up the metal enough to get near or even past the melting piont. If you are going to heat up titanium then your best bet for a crucible would be tungsten, and if you need to cut titanium, you will need a plasma cutter. The king of random made a cheap plasma furnis that you should be able to build easily if nessisary. Also watch the hacksmith's several thousand degree lightsaber build that talks a little about titanium and tungsten, as it uses a tungsten rod to maintain structural integrity, and uses a titanium tube to get extreamly hot. The backyard scientis also cast a sword from thermite, which is fairly usefull information as well.
Make a square frame around your hydraulic hammers, doors with a T shaped cutout so you can position materials with the same ways you would before. The doors would act as a spark shield, and as long as you wear safety glasses, you can look at what you’re doing well enough. Cut the left hand side of the T slot to the edge of the door so you can open, slot your piece, and close.
Please excuse my ignorance. Can someone clarify these questions of mine?
What is alloy?
Mixing metals with other metals/non metals right? Like iron and a non-metal carbon?
What is steel?
Steel is produced by alloying metals with other elements?
What is damascus?
A technic of layering steels to make a stronger steel?? Since titanium is often mixed with aluminum and vanadium, isn't it steel?
Edit: what is the difference between alloy and steel?
Joel, I'm going to try to answer your questions, bear with me. An alloy is a combination of metallic elements (eg, bronze=copper+tin+som other things). Steel is also an alloy, but it is exclusively iron and carbon. So steel is always an alloy but an alloy is not always steel. Damascus refers to the technique of forge-welding many layers of a metal (usually steel) to one another to make a stronger outcome, the metals or metal within the damascus stay the same throughout that process. Things like titanium and vanadium are elements in their own right, so combining them with other things just makes an alloy, not necessarily steel. Hopefully that all makes sense! God bless!
@@tobyham3188 thanks a lot for making it clear. Good day!!
@@tobyham3188 actually carbon is non-metallic for example. Not all alloys are combination of only metallic elements, non-metallic elements are also possible. This could be for example iron-hydrogen alloy, a metallic element combined with non-metallic element to create an alloy.
Rest of what you said I agree with. Steel is an alloy, like bronze. Damascus is a forging technique.
Hey Alec I don't comment often but fun fact my grandfather actually helped make the process for steel titanium bonding a long ways back with my father. They originally used the process to help create studs for bridges in the US (this is a long time ago). I believe they used a kind of explosive (I think some kind of industrial plastique things were a lot less regulated then....) in a controlled explosion to bond the metals. The flash explosion allowed the metals to bond without the oxidation layer and brought both metals up to the necessary weld temperatures. I am in no way an expert in this just something you should try and look into.
EDIT: after a quick phone call it was an aluminum/titanium stud for airplanes and large ships not bridges, however I still believe the process is still applicable here
Ah yes, explosive welding. While a very cool process, I do believe it's something Alec Steele here would have a hard time getting permission to do. Besides, his thing has always been forging, and in this case, unless he gets a press that can create orders of magnitude more pressure than he currently can, and buys a sealed vaccuum or inert gas (i.e. argon) high-temperature furnace to do his heating in, the only thing he can make with titanium is pretty iridescent colours caused by the microstructure of the oxide layer forming a diffraction gradient on the surface of the metals.
Hey Alec - try tungsten next, k? I'd like to watch you try to obtain the forge temperature necessary to get pure tungsten into a plastic state (between 2,500-3000 degrees CELSIUS, *which is basically 2X as hot as the hottest magma to erupt as lava on Earth since the beginning of plate tectonics* ).
Like some kind of thermite? :)
He needs to collaborate with the hydraulic press channel for that :-)
There is a good video out about the explosive welding process. It doesn't matter if you can do it, still great to watch and learn. Check out the video by Nobelclad.
Alex playing with ACTUAL explosives? I totally support giving this process a shot!
As a titanium metallurgist, you are almost certainly dealing with Ti64. You already noticed this but the shaving are highly combustible and band saws don't like Ti. I can contest to titanium fires not wanting to go out, I have a few holes in my concrete as proof haha. I didn't see what type of extinguisher you have but a class d is the way to go with this material. But a gas fired or open air furnace is going to be tough for this. Ti welding is usually done in an inert Ar or He atmosphere like you said because of titanium's high affinity for oxygen. Despite the failure, still cool to watch
I'm no metallurgist, but it says TA6V stamped on the bar stock.
At 2:09 you can see he has two water extinguishers so probably a good thing he didn't make a big enough Ti fire to detonate.
Years ago I used to work at titanium research and development. Company we used argon injected hot presses to form airplane parts.
Also a metallurgist, I can tell you Alec that even if you DO manage to bond the steel and Ti surfaces, at temperature, in absence of oxygen, what will immediately happen is that the carbon in the steel will migrate rapidly into the titanium forming a brittle carbide, leaving a soft layer of carbon free iron where the steel was. Then as you try to cool the sandwich, the fact that iron has a thermal expansion rate that is significantly larger than titanium will result in a huge shear stress across the interface and the steel (pure iron at surface) will try to peel away from the titanium. The (brittle as heck) titanium carbide layer will fracture and the whole thing will still come apart. Even if you avoided the carbon transfer reaction by using pure iron (a poor blade material to be sure) it would either fracture at the interface or just bend like a banana during cooling. While the TIG weld step was interesting, you were just creating a brittle coating of Ti + Fe + C intermetallics.
FWIW there are band saw blades and cutting wheels that will cut titanium better than your garden variety shop blades/wheels but you won't find them at Home Depot. You /could/ have researched the feeds and speeds to use on titanium ahead of time but that does not seem your style.... So overall interesting to watch, like a train wreck, but it wasn't going to work.
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment."
the tig weld had nothing to do with the blanks not fusing. not enough temperature, and not enough forge hammer pressure. get to near the eutectic for Fe and Ti alloy, then they will start to fuse. and I have had hundreds of titanium slabs and plates (beta alloys and 6-4) band saw cut. find the right feed rate and saw RPM. And he needs to use coolant on the saw and the mill. Then no worries about sparking, and his cutters will last a lot longer. 20 years as a titanium process/product metallurgist experience.
I have always been curious about a titanium/aluminum alloy: you would think the softness of the aluminum would nicely balance the brittleness of the titanium, but I honestly just don't know
Ti64 is basically the standard for strength to weight in materials. 6% Al, 4% V..
The stuff is badass, and we use it for damn near everyrhing.
Aluminum alloys can be fairly brittle as well
Yeah....... No.
Look into an alloy called Stellite. It is 70% cobalt, 30% Chromium, and a trace of tungsten carbide. The tungsten carbide forms a dendritic structure. Not very sharp in a conventional way, but it'll cut dam near anything. I suspect they did something similar here: take titanium as the base material and process it so that there are ceramic micro-serrations embedded in it. Couple of advantages: titanium flexes rather than snaps, and the actual cutting action is done by ceramic, which is much harder than metals.
As a person who had a Titanium hook in my shoulder for a long time I am happy it doesn't stick with other materials....
It actually does stick with your body. Unlike most other materials, your body will form a bond with titanium, thats why its used.
It's more like the body does not have a auto immune reaction to titanium, and try to expel it out.
However my sister was allergic to a implant that was not pure titanium, and it had to be replaced.
I am not a doctor. This is just personal experience...
It forms a strong oxide layer so its not so reactive, and quite stable.
The strengh to weight ratio is also good
I have a Titanium nail in my left , femur and a couple of screws in both ankles
Don't stick your shoulder in the power hammer.
I worked for a short time with the Space Shuttle program (OV-101) and as I recall there was vacuum ovens and inert gas atmosphere around tooling. Oh, yea, you need a very specific Fire Extinguisher to stop a Titanium Fire. Best thing to do is just cover it with very dry sand.
Just needs a Class D(at least that's what we use in Canada) for combustible metal fires
Mike Ford I’m not familiar with UK Fire Regulation or what passes for Class D extinguisher. There are two agents that will absolutely work on Titanium. Dry Sand and Argon. Argon is difficult to employ, but if anyone can figure it out it would be Alec. The best way to work a Titanium Fire is to go to dinner way away from where it’s burning and watch the pretty colors and sparkles. Because if it lands on you it will hurt you really, really bad, then blow you up when it burns through into the muscles. Be carful Alec we don’t want you to melt.
Abby Babby Pretty sure Cat D in Canada is the same as it in in the UK. Defs worth checking properly tho. Dry sand should work well enough for anything Alec is likely to encounter, he's not going to be playing with hypergolic mixtures or fluorine anytime soon...
That's a foamy extinguisher right? Co2 won't stop it and water won't work neither. It need something that stick to the fire source.
Just toss a handful of asbestos dust over it and forget it. Much like tossing newspaper over indoor dog mines.
Could you melt them seperately and combind them together in like some metal cup? Maybe make an ingot and forge the ingot? Idk see what happens? :D this has me interested now!
If they are molten, it would probably become an alloy, instead of a damascus. But what if you got the steel into a semi molten state and then inserted titanium slugs into it, completely surrounded so that no oxygen could get into it?
I couldn't help but think when he said "What's the worst that can happen?" - famous last words. lol
im going to tell you this because i know you are a person who appreciates doing the work regardless of the outcome. tonight is my wifes birthday and i just made her italian sausage ragu spaghetti from scratch with garlic herb dinner rolls from scratch. while it wasnt perfect i learned a lot and even though it wasn't pretty the flavors where great!
TheClassicRPGist this is an incredibly wholesome comment and i sincerely hope that your wife enjoyed the meal
she did!!!! or atleast she told me she did lol.
🤔question. Can you fordge that broken band saw blade into a billit?
generally speaking, yes. but its probably a lot of work for not that good a product :/
Christopher Sanchez n
Titanium and tungsten :p
Let’s make it happen
I was legit thinking the same thing! Imagine a sword made of this combination! Would be absolutely beautiful
what about tungsten Damascus?
also, could you carbon treat both the steel/iron and titanium to help fusion?
I'm in no way an expert- hell not even a hobbyist in metallurgy, but if what I know about tungsten is true then you'd either be forging a forgeable piece of steel and a solid block of tungsten, or a puddle of steel and a forgeable piece of tungsten
From the look of the oxide, it is the most common alloyTi6-4 (6% Al and 4% Vanadium) hence part of the metal identification is TA6V. The usual forging and rolling temperature is between 935 and 950C. It oxidises quite readily at those temperatures resulting in the brown powdery layer. Gas preheating, in particular where the atmosphere cannot be ready controlled is best avoided as any free Hydrogen or Nitrogen can readily be picked up by the hot metal rendering it very brittle and useless. Best way to ensure this does not happen is to have a good oxidising atmosphere in your furnace.
It is the cutting fines that can burn very fiercely and a Thermite type reaction often occurs if you mix old iron or aluminium cuttings and Titanium so always best to clean your machine down 100% and collect and dispose of carefully. Oh yes, DO NOT put water on a Titanium fire, it will explode, safest is to use either dry sand to smother it or dry powder extinguisher. Bulk Titanium pieces do not normally burn, however there is one exception, that is if it is very hot and in contact with pure Nitrogen. It will then burn forming Titanium Nitride, this reaction does not need any Oxygen at all.
To have even the most remote chance of them bonding all surface must be chemically clean. Put your final pieces of Steel and Titanium into a a box, seal up the box and weld it up in a vacuum or in Argon. Any air (Oxygen, Nitrogen or Hydrogen (ie water vapour) that is left will react with the Titanium at high temperature causing an oxide or surface enriched layer that will prevent the bonding).
The blue brittle layer is typical of Hyrogen / Oxgygen contamination and embittlement suggesting you have excess fuel (gas in your furnace). Reduce the gas and or increase the air to provide an oxidising atmosphere. Hot Titanium will suck up any free Hydrogen very readily and you only need values of the order of 30 to 40 ppm to render the material brittle and useless.
Think, that should help you some if you get another attempt. Retired now, but worked in QA on Titanium, Zirconium, Hafnium and Niobium for 40 years
Thanks Richard that is some stellar information.
Why did I read all of this, I literally play sports and video games for a living...
Ur genius though lol like 200 iq
I never thought I will save a youtube comment for my records and references, but this reply is just too good to pass by.
Thanks, glad my info has been of use / interest.
I've worked with titanium a few times(though I'm still building the friction folder, I keep forgetting about it, haha). When grinding, the sparks burn white hot & are hard to put out. Make sure there is NO dust that can ignite. I've seen guys use 3m double sided VHB tape, if you wanted to surface grind it(non magnetic). John Grismso did a video on it.... Have a great day...
Jus cast titanium, chrome, manganese, magnesium, tungsten and platinum
Ultimate cast!!!
they got different melting points idk
Watching you mill out that titanium really made me think back to my ctc doing machine tool tech. Glad I can keep up with your lingo
You should try to make damascus with 3 or more different metals. Could look cool
I was going to ask the same thing.
And that can be steel, nickel, and copper) Should look super cool!
That would be cool if possable, do you guys thing he can do a feather patterened raindrop Damascus?
Maybe a mix of something crazy like aluminum bronze, beryllium copper, and cupronickel? :P
Adamant Consternation likely wouldn't work.
Forge some Damascus glasses!!!!!!!
+Mme. Hyraelle (Hyraelle) that would be awesome! Then he could blow some lenses for the glasses he makes.
xD
He could do soft glass work with his forge but to do any lampworking he would have to get a torch.
Oh he would need a kiln too.
I would watch it.
Try this under all inert gass atmosphere !!
And a electric heating system.
So build a tent ...
Don't forget your air suply!!
Make the titanium sheets smaller so that the steel laps over them, then cut off the extra steel once it is welded.
There was definitely some oxydation between the titanium and the steel. Maybe you should have ground both blocks down to wringing flatness, wring them together in an inert gas bath before welding the seam.
That’s a damn cool idea!
Unfortunately unless you can grind in an inert gas then the Ti will oxidise before you get it away from the grinding belt
You can grind wet and then wipe dry within the inert gas bath.
Jérôme Vuarand Ti will strip the oxygen out of water. You could grind it wet but you'd actually get a thicker oxide layer by doing so. Unpassivated Ti is incredibly reactive and very difficult to keep unpassivated without a glovebox.
Would it be possible to wring the materials in a liquid nitrogen bath?
It doesn’t matter if timascus is patented, you can create it for your own personal use. Just don’t sell the part made.
if he makes money via advertisement on a video related to a patented product he could be sued
Yup. He can make it all he wants, he just can't show it to us, basically.
If he doesn't monetize the video he could make it.
u have to prove cost or damage as the petantholder, there is no case here.
Joshua Roe He still makes money from sponsorship
Maybe using brown gas, or hho gas might be able to fuse them together rather then forge welding. browns gas should be able to fuse both at thier welding temp at the same time sort of a brute force way of doing it.
The other option might be an induction heat process might consider instantly cooling it.
Heat bar through the induction loop as it comes out cool with ash water from weld point to 200F
Maybe do a crucible
Could try thermal cycling heat it up to weld temp them let it air cool 5 - 6 times.
That's all i can think of off the top of my head.
Curve it in the middle and two two-four tack welds in the middle, hammer middle out and add tack welds as you go repeatedly heating to the approximate temperature it bonds during first attempt
if the patent is the stumbling block try using helium inserted of argon. Vacuum (or hermetical seald ) processing of metals is an old method and is probably not patented ( viking age crusebel steel for the middle east ) so if you use a alternate purging gas (must probably be a noble gas as Ti reacts with Nitrogen )
Sveinn Guðberg Sveinsson I don't think that would work if the patent is strong.. if anyone making the patent was smart they would word it to include all gases
Jake Mitch that would be to brood argon gas is use in aluminium processing for purification and titanium and it's derivative are welded in vacuum and argon gas chambers so you can't patent broadly and you must prove the process is new and dissimilar to others but I'm not a lawyer
he said the process is patented, not the gas used. so it doesn't matter which gas you use. it matters how you use it.
I'm guessing their process also uses specialized equipment though. General inert gas welding, even done with forging, can't possibly be covered by their patent... Not a lawyer obviously but...
A patent that tries to include previously developed methods is inherently weak. If a method was already developed then on what grounds can they claim a patent?
Similiar to when Trump tryied to ™ "You're Fired"
Whole time you were doing this all I could think about was Rad Knives' video of him making radmascis and it exploding on him. My sister-in-law needed to make a website so I sent her to Squarespace with your link. There's a good service right there.
What about tungsten and titanium?
Won't work causes exclusions
@@fredtofts6557 I heard from skallagrim that it’s possible to make a perfect sword with a tungsten edge with titanium core
Hey Alec try using Zirconium instead of steel!
Hardest part of working with titanium is that oxide layer. Which of course heating it up makes it form faster and it's a strong layer that doesn't flake of like iron oxide.
You'd probably need an inert atmosphere to make a titanium and steel Damascus just like you need an inert atmosphere to weld titanium so that layer doesn't form preventing forging. So just build a giant argon chamber and put an electric furnace in it and all your equipment and get a SCBA suit and no problem XD.
i was thinking that maybe using solder flux to prevent the oxidation might help, dip the parts and clamp together, not sure if it would prevent oxygen though.
Problems I see with that is first you'd need to prep the materials in a vacuum or shielding gas to remove the oxide then the solder flux would just melt off in the furnace which would cause it to oxidize quickly due to the higher heat.
Titanium will even burn in a nitrogen atmosphere if the surface area is large enough such as titanium powder to make titanium nitride. It's quite the reactive element.
In truth titantium and iron just don't bond well together. When we bond them using diffusion bonding it requires a interlayer of copper or nickle if you desire to bond them below 850C. And diffusion bonding is quite a bit different then forge welding requiring near perfectly flat clean surfaces.
My suggestion of doing it in an inert atmosphere was a jest due to the impracticality of it but it's the closest chance to forge weld them together and even then it's highly not likely to succeed in any meaningful matter :)
Just do the whole process in a vacuum while wearing a space suit - I don't see any problems with this method.
A similar process. True stainless steel has 12-30% chromium in it (The steel that the DeLorean panels are made of). This chromium forms chromium oxide layer which protects the surface of the steel from oxidizing. Since the steel has chromium throughout if you scratch off the chromium oxide layer more will form. If it is a very low % chromium SS and you brush it with say a steel brush then it can rust because in that spot you diluted the chromium below 12% because of little bits of the brush wire that is left behind.
Nice, I've been wondering when you were gonna try some Timascus(you should ask Rad knives to help you, he does radmascus. Though he has a video of it blowing up on instagram too).... Ok gonna watch now... by the way, I just started my 1st collab video and knife. He is already working on my 1st integral.... Take it easy Alec, excited to see this one... Ooops, I guess timascus is just titanium, still should be awesome...
نعيما حبيبنا اليك
this is the meet the robinsons kid on caffeine
Or maybe something a little more powerful....
I've heard of some employees, at the General Electric Jet Engine Plant, in Rutland, Vermont, had made automotive parts, like bumpers, and put them on their cars only to find the titanium caused the iron to rust through very quickly.
So, Im not a smith, but a welder with a basic understanding of metalurgy, and Titanium welding must be done in a completely oxygen free environment, which I think you mentioned.
I also remember hearing something about gas forges releasing a lot of oxygen in them when the gas burns, whereas a coal forge does not, and is almost oxygen free inside, so would a coal forge perhaps work better?
Its true that forgewelding is apparently easier in a coal forge, but not because of the oxygen but because of the water vapor which is created in a gas forge but not in a coal forge
Lars Heim Ah, there we go. I was remembering things wrong then it seems.
We use a Torvac with an Argon quench for brazing dissimilar metals. And a high pressure/temp process for diffusion bonding
Lars Heim is it maybe that the titanium is so reactive it steals the oxygen from water? I know that is the thing with magnesium and they seem to be pretty similar in reactivity.
MatteV2 he should try the coal forge and flux weld the pieces together one at a time like steel smithing
Pure imagination? Like Willy Wonka? Then Chocolate Damascus should be next.
With FrenchGuyCooking
Kit kats
imagine what a gold and silver damascus would look like.
Oliver C
Gold and silver do make an alloy
Its called electrum i think
Juanpablo Montalvo :(
@@oknc9122 It's called mokume gane (wood grain) and is actually quite common in jewelry making. It can also be made with zinc, copper, brass, bronze, silver, platinum...
@Juanpablo Montalvo. While they do make an alloy, electrum is only generated when both metals are melted together. Making mokume gane works like forge welding. So the part where silver and gold touch would be a thin electrum layer, but you do see a patttern.
Есть технология кузнечной створки стали с титаном. Положи между сталью и титаном никель. Сталь, никель, титан никель, сталь. Завари края.
И прововывай как обычный дамаск.
Those milling sparks could be alleviated with some cutting oil. I used to stand in front of machines with spray bottles full of that coolant in your saw, too.
Keep it up. I like what you're doing!
See if Cody’s lab will send you or suggest any interesting metals and alloys you could try!
Or even an all-out C'sL collaboration!
Adding a third common meaterial that reacts with both steel and titanium.
Something that I thought of, welding the pieces together may start the oxidizing process on the titanium before you even get it in the forge.
Possibly make the side of the titanium and steel so flat that they stick together with a natural suction, I don't know if you have the devices to get the surfaces that flat but I think it has a better chance than welding before forging
Ive only worked with Titanium ocasionally, so im not an expert. But i guess the heat from the TIGs Arc already made it fail, as while you welded the pieces together there was enough time for oxygen to get in there and form an initial thin oxide layer. When we welded titanium pieces and didnt have the luxury of surface abrasive finishings later, we used an antioxidation+cooling paste around the weld, high flow helium/argon and slow high amp pulses to limit the heat to small areas and leave some cooling time.
That propably wont work very well here as you would trap the antioxidation paste between the layers, which might cause a delamination due to pressure or worst case an explosion. But there was another trick we had for extremely moody materials, a sandplasting like chamber filled with Argon, ive never worked in it but when the older guys used it they did put whatever they wanted to weld in there, their torch of choice, consumables and filler, close the hatch, open the Argon valve, and then they waited. After a minute or so they began welding in a pure Argon environment, the gas from the troch itself would creat an overpressure and you could always here the chambers overpressure valve opening evertime the arc was running.
So i guess this is sadly impossible without special equipment or extreme risks. :x
Oh dear, now i wonder if your crazy enough to try to build your own Pressurized Inert Gas Welding Chamber XD
AMAZING IDEAS!!!!! Thank you!!!
Youre welcome XD
If you really want to try building your own chamber, one of our guys did build it, i still have contact with him so i could ask him for pointers or anything critical to watch out for.
I know a very old metallurgist, he told me inert gas welding chambers for welding ti were made out of sealed sand blast cabinets. Would work for the initial sealing up the seams but keeping any oxygen out during and after the forging is the problem
You can't work titanium at its near melting point in the open air. You need to do with constant inert gas shielding. A bubble is what we used to call it. Back in the day we used an old sandblasting cabinet flooded with a steady flow of argon to weld titanium parts. I'm not sure how you would go about forging inside bubble unless you put an anvil and a induction heater inside the bubble
crazy observations, I have used a cabinet as well. Regarding this topic, could one assume heating the barstock with an electromagnetic coil inside the cabinet with some type of hyd press work. To much time and cash for me, however the topic is intriguing.
The coil is the same as a induction heater. You wouldn't be able to heat something on the outside and get it inside the cabinet and then recharge it with argon fast enough before your work piece cooled off. And obviously a gas torch just won't burn Inside an inert gas environment. You might be able to do some heating with a tig inside a bubble but its hard to heat a large area with a tig.
you will get a eutectic reaction (melting) well below the melting point of pure Ti when combined with some metals, like nickel or cobalt. the Ti can melt or slag off as low as 1750F if its contact with those metals or their oxide/scale.
i know this is what you do for like welding titanium with a welding machine.
and ive heard this is how you have to forge weld titanium regardless if its with itself another titanium alloy or steel.
ive also heard removing the oxygen from the environment is necessary with certain stainless steels.
I am just surprised by the fact that one can copyright a forging technique.
Appreciate you doing vids on things you have no idea will work. Kudos to your bravery and science info sharing!
" I still predict total failure, i just like hitting things" lol
I thought patents only apply to you if you plan on selling it not if you just keep it
Catfish moto but if he is filming it for the purpose of making income (i.e. ad revenue) it still applies unfortunately:[
Catfish moto Yep. You can't sell patent infringing products... If the country you're producing the product in and the one you're selling it in bother honoring and enforcing the patent.
You can use a patent to reproduce a technique or product for personal use anywhere.
He could do it on film if he demonetized the video though.
but a patent costs money for every country you want it in so if a patent for something is in china its not automatically in germany patented, if you want that though you have to pay more money
Yep.
Hi, look up the Ti-Fe phase diagram and use the minimum temperature you start to see an alpha phase solid solution. If you don’t get that hot they won’t fuse.
Try melting them together like in a smelter
Need some copper/nickel Damascus projects please
Nickel is ludicrously expensive. :(
Isnogood12 so is Ti.
make some cutlery maybe, sth really delicate
I don't remember what other material besides copper that he used, but he did do some mokume gane, which is exactly what you're referring to I think. At least it's a common combo for mokume gane.
Copper/brass
It'd be pricy but possible. A gold and silver Damascus. Possibly make a letter opener since larger blades would sky rocket in price
If one can afford it, such a blade might offer the werewolf a more elegant ending.
If an enemy be worthy of your wrath, he may deserve an artistic finish.
I guess if I were going to try this, I would weld the billets together inside a fume hood filled with an inert gas, or seal it in a can inside a fume hood filled with an inert gas. Not sure if this would be stepping on the patented process, but... that's what I would try.
Side question. Do you know if you can forge weld silver and steel?
I'm not sure about this, but I think if you wanted to combine these two metals, you can't simply flat pound or press them together because the in-between layers won't stick. I think you'd have take two long flat bars, weld them together, then twist the combined block after heating read hot so they can't break apart. Once you've twisted the bar into a tight bind, then flatten it again under a high powered press, and then fold it, and then repeat the whole process several times, then you can probably make a blade from it. And quite a dangerous one I imagine. The durability of titanium and the hardness and sharpness of steel.
Alec I still think you should try the Viking Meteorite Crucible Steel!!!but A canister Damascus using meteorite shavings,1095 powder,and 5160 powder would be awesome!!! J Neilson is the man when it comes to the canisters plan!!!
It's not crucible if it's canister. The crucible is a smelting process, whereas the canister exists to help you press-weld disparate materials.
Nieroshai I have been trying to convince Alec and Joey Van Der Steeg to Colab and use the Meteorite to make crucible steel. I also thought canister Damascus would be cool as well!!!
1095 & 5160 won't really show much pattern. They are too similar. If the meteor is nickel it should show up but no point in mixing the other two
Jason Harrison true they are similar but 5160 has chromium where 1095 does not is only a subtle difference
I know that I'm ten days late but I think I have a solution, a Chinese company was able to create a gold-titanium alloy that is much stronger than titanium Damascus. Obviously I assume that you can't afford enough gold to create a noticeable difference but using a cheaper metal similar to gold such as a period 6 or group 11 metal you would be much more successful. Obviously my idea hasn't been tested but according to the facts it should work.Probably not but I'd appreciate if you could try. Thanks
Ti is also know for
Galling and friction welding to bits.
You should try this again but use an induction heater inside an argon enclosure. Argon is easily bought at welding supply stores. Empty the tank inside an empty 55gal drum and lower the end of your induction heater inside the drum. Gives you a way of heating metal without oxidizing it.
Think you could smash steel and silver together like some sort of material for a vampire/werewolf hunter sword?
Umm...you could just silver plate the steel. But what's REALLY keeping you safe from the vampires and werewolves, is the fact that they don't exist
Ash Scott Silver plated steel would not look as cool a silver/steel Damascus.
always someone that comes along to ruin a joke
Witcher silver swords are meteorite steel plated with silver, because it's more practical.
One Man Kebab Remover Yeah, I don't care. Silver and steel Damascus would look cool. Is any of it really that practical in a world without monsters?
If titanium oxide is the biggest issue...why not have the titanium in the center so that it is sealed within the steel? Is there a safety reason? Great videos Mister Steele!
P.S. Perhaps a silver/copper Damascus like the "Old Sheffield Plate" process used? You could research and discus some of it's history as well. Or Maybe a Nickel silver/copper to keep down the cost?
I think the reason he didnt put the titanium on the inside was just so that if it popped it wasnt likely to throw steel up at him... i was thinking about the same thing...
Ever mess around with sterling silver? Maybe try smelting some alloys of silver and copper or tin. Maybe zinc as well. If you can get it hot enough you can make some weird alloys
I'd love to see a High Vanadium-Chromium steel and titanium Damascus. It would also be insanely strong if you do it right
No stronger than the V/Ch steel. Titanium is no stronger than many steels.
416 stainless, and 6al titanium.
They machine similar, maybe they can be forge welded.
Here's my humble suggestion: draw out the titanium longer, mill out a few holes in it, then sandwich it with steel(1/8th in. layered sheet but you know better than I). The steel should bond to itself between the holes when you hammer it and you'll retain the strength of having a titanium core. Assuming you're going for a sword.
That sounds like trapping oxygen
Yeah....... NO!
That's a nice idea💡
I love how he explicitly stated that he doesn't want random guesses from people who don't know what they're talking about, and yet one of the top comments is from someone who basically just detailed possibly one of the WORST ways you could ever try to forge weld. Like if you were making a recipe for how to get the most possible cold shuts, massive chunks of oxides, and inclusions, this would be the winner. This would also possible make a bomb.
Something that could might help with the two metals forging together could be lapping? I know this is done with some cooling components on PC's to make a surface as flat as reasonably possible, this might help remove any tiny gaps between the metals where they could oxidize. Although I really know nothing of if that would practically help
Maybe forging the two together isn't necessary to implement the use of both materials for something like a knife . Perhaps you could cut a titanium blade and put high carbon steel around the cutting edge of the blade In a modified version of a dove tail and maybe some high end glue and some sort if that even exists for such a purpose, glue is stronger than wood , seems like there should be a parallel for metal. It would awesome! Strong, sharp , functional and light weight
I don't work with metal in the slightest but I'm fascinated by all this... Great work!
How about now a year on?. Have you started metal working yet?
Yeah me too bro I'm just bored shitless at 2 in the morning
You should get an induction heater, get powdered source material and then forge them in home. The reactions could be bad though
Induction heater sounds like a good idea, since that would be much easier to get working in an inert atmosphere.
How about a crumpled ball of steel and titanium foil as a starting point
I'm pretty sure Bill has made Titanium/Steel Timascus in the past if I'm not mistaken. I do recall seeing it for sale on his website at one point a couple years back... I'd have to double check on that again though honestly. It's been a while lol.
Try to make a gold and silver Damascus
Mokume gane
You can try putting it in an square pipe and weld it air tight, then you don’t get any Oxydes and it might work;)
Mr.Unknown by the time he's ground it clean and taken it off the belt in air the Ti will have oxidised. It's incredibly reactive.
If theres ever a titanium steel alloy i hope its called Titansteel.
Read a wonderful article from an industrial foundry that says to coat it in glass before the heating process, to heat the metal for quite a while- ( slowly raising the temp through the heating process) but using a specific gas to heat the metal with so as to eliminate as much oxygen as possible
Love seeing these ideas go from your mind to reality to a video. As always great quality video by Alec/Jamie.
Maybe create a steel box where you fill in the titanium and steel package... This should help with the sparks and allow you to go to a higher temperature. Later on you just simply grind off the steel you used for the box so you are left with the damascus inside... Just a thought
Or if it explodes you have shrapnel from the steel box flying everywhere. Potentially very dangerous.
Titanium doesn't explode, it rapidly oxidizes. No oxygen in box, no boom.
When Britain finds out you can just make a knife
I work as an engineer/physicist at a national lab. A few years ago we had to make some parts out of grade 1 titanium. It was a rather challenging material to work with. If you're getting it hot you have to keep it under an inert atmosphere or you'll encounter difficulties.
Those blue oxides were quite attractive.
How would you combine them?