The plan to fix Melbourne's City Loop railway
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- čas přidán 25. 04. 2024
- The City Loop is the heart of Melbourne's railway network - but is it actually holding back Melbourne's public transport?
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Video about the Metro Tunnel: • The problem with the M...
The City Loop was built in the 1970s and consists of Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Paliament, Melbourne Central and Flagstaff stations. However, it doesn't really reflect how Melbournians use their trains today - so the government is spending a lot of money to fix that. One way is the Metro Tunnel project, but another (much cheaper) project is the City Loop reconfiguration that could see the way the loop operates fundamentally changed. - Věda a technologie
Hooray!! Thanks for the shout out at the start of your video! :)
Anytime haha!
Jay Foreman what are you doing here?
@@electro_sykesThere was a map in the video. He is a map man. Why would he not be here?
One immediate and free fix could be to end the midday change of direction that some of the loop lines currently do. And have done for decades. Just make half go clockwise and half go anti-clockwise, on a permanent basis. Passengers don't really care which way it goes, just that it's consistent. As a lifelong Melbourne resident, I'm often still not sure which loop station to go to for the fastest trip out to the burbs. And the lunchtime gap of up to an hour with no loop service at all - ridiculous. That's right when thousands of people want to travel.
Yeah, the 'to the uninitiated' line is redundant. People who have lived here 25 (me) or 65 (my dad) years and used the services regularly still can't make heads or tails of it
I live in the country Victoria. I Hate (with a capital H) using the metro train system particularly Southern Cross station. It is anxiety inducing. The knowledge required to navigate multiple trains to get where you want to go causes me to just use regional train service, walk and use trams. I get off at Southern Cross, walk to Flinders St and catch a tram there. It's just easier because the amount of time I spend trying to decipher the route screens, platform numbers, platform access irritates the absolute crap out me. Then there's security staff that I feel try to manufacture criminal behaviour in lost customers and then there's the nazi ticket inspectors. It shouldn't be this hard and it shouldn't be this horrible.
Rail staff are hit and miss and you never know when you're getting a miss. When you do get a miss they just BS and couldn't care less. For example I had to get two 12 year old boys, unaccompanied, from Castlemaine to Stony Point. What an absolute bloody debacle. Staff just lie when they don't know. There's no communication between metro and regional staff, no one cares, completely unhelpful. They got there but the instructions were wrong, they got lost in Southern Cross, missed 2 trains, staff wouldn't help. Point is their pain is my pain when I go there.
It not just one thing it's the all of it. If you live in Melbourne and use it every day it becomes second nature however if you don't then surely that is a barometer of efficiency - ie how a stranger can navigate.
Conversely, from Melbourne I caught the XPT to Sydney, got of at Sydney Central, walked to the end of the platform, found the ticket boxes and was on my way to Gosford (after a nice cup of tea) completely seamlessly. It was so simple compared to the diabolical complexity of Melbourne.
I do care which way it goes, can't stand walking to my station to go to work only to see that it goes through the whole stupid loop instead of taking the shortest path to flinders st. As my train frequency is abysmal, it is very annoying
@@thehighwaystar1339 Which line do you use? If a train is going to use the loop all day, at some point it will go the "long" way for you, and at some point the "short" way. If it was consistent instead of constantly changing, you could plan your journey KNOWING that it will always go clockwise or anti-clockwise. Then you could either just stay on and accept the slightly longer journey, or change at a shoulder station like Richmond or North Melbourne.
Am I the only one that likes the city loop? It means that you can easily access different parts of the city from every line. I’m happy mernda is staying connected to it.
I’m in the same boat as you, Melbourne’s system is so much better than other countries systems
I'm happy with it, but if this change is gonna help other people more, then I can always catch a tram 😂
It's annoying being on the Werribee line, which doesn't go through the loop at all.
I like it, but there’s a lot of days I hate it lol
I used to go to Swinburne and I live on the Mernda. I used to be able to stay on my train in the City. It was great.
Will absolutely require Nth Melbourne to have more than the skinny low-capacity escalators for platform transfers, it’s already dangerous in peak times. Time to build a full upper concourse and connect it with Docklands. Or flying junctions.
and the situation is even more grim at Richmond!
@@magnalucian8richmond is fucked every time I transfer from city loop to frankston line, those tunnels are tiny and the station as a whole feels too small and too old
I don’t like it when they say things like “we could increase capacity by 20 trains per hour” or whatever because that doesn’t mean they’re actually going to send that many trains. Even with no Metro Tunnel or reconfiguration they can increase the amount of trains during off peak hours, and I don’t really know why they don’t. Demand during off peak, especially late evenings seems to be quite high, and it feels like this is being ignored while they dance around future promises.
Money
24/7 service is probably higher on the priority list than the weirdly specific and nuanced plans to adjust random services to connect through the tunnel and loop. Nobody is asking for Frankston to connect to Craigieburn. People ARE however asking to be able to get home from their trade or hospitality job at 1am on a weeknight without forking out for an Uber (not that Myki is much cheaper these days)
We have extra trains really no excuse,
Have you seen how much train drivers get paid? Someone jumps on the tracks and your off with big juicy pay more trains more chance of money lost.
@@George-xb5eywhy not upgrade to self-driving trains?
Put the savings into mental health services to reduce the chances of someone jumping on the tracks in the first place.
Seems like an incredibly obvious improvement. If there's more trains coming from the south than from the north, then it stands to reason that capacity is maximised by putting all your resources into through-running trains from the north and only turning around excess trains from the south. And then consider adding capacity to the north so you don't have to turn any trains around in the CBD at all...
Metro\PTV would be more interested in turn backs than through running into the north\west at all while keeping services low.
Glad you mentioned the problems of North Melbourne being a choke point - it already is a nightmare at times.
If it does happen, It should be configured so passengers changing at Richmond or Nth Melbourne to get to a CBD station can just do a cross platform transfer.
It would be quite hard to do that - the only easy way would be for glen waverley pax at Richmond given that the track alignment already allows cross platform transfers onto belgrave/lildale/alamein trains - for Frankston, there are no junctions past south yarra for Sandringham trains to go to the same platform as the Frankstons and vice versa. The same issue can be said for north melbourne
Yep, that would be ideal. You might need a full rethink of our current approach to make that happen though. For e.g We probably need a proper metro rather than continuing to extend our stretched suburban rail system.
Changing at Richmond is pretty awful. Caulfield is probably worse which is going to become more of an issue once the metro tunnel opens. Ideally both stations would be redesigned to have crossover tracks so that interchange is a matter of simply crossing a platform but I doubt it would ever happen
@@offbeatwanders Not as much of a nightmare as Southern Cross. Honestly I don't know what they were thinking when they rebuilt that place. I miss Spencer street station, even though it also sucked.
@@shraka spare a thought for the poor workers at Southern Cross who have to breathe those diesel fumes all day... At least we're only there for a few minutes
Ironically, one of the most difficult aspects of the current loop is figuring out getting to another loop station. It's hard to know which direction a line is running, or if the train will exit the loop before your destination.
Do people not read the signs that say which order its going or
@@darthrizla4351 Some of the loops switch direction depending on the time of day
Melbourne has some pretty bad platform to platform pathfinding compared to some other countries. When I get off at Southern Cross to catch a city loop train it's often difficult to figure out which platform I should be changing to. Fixing that with digital signage or better integration with google / apple maps would make changing trains far less painful.
Either that or (hope against hope) we end up with cross platform changes so any passenger can just walk across the platform to catch a train going to the other half of the loop.
Honestly one thing southern cross needs is better signage. The city loop stations and Flinders all have signs telling you which platforms go to which other major city stations regardless of what line they belong to
@@dylanshadowstar9779 Southern Cross feels very poorly thought out - just slapped together. Diesel vehicles in an un-ventilated space? The small / narrow ticket area? Spencer street was better.
I've moved from sydney and one thing that I've missed is the detailed integration with google/apple maps.
@@samuelnoble617 Yeah, Melbourne is a bit backwards compared to Sydney in a lot of ways. It’s really too bad we’ve spent so much elevating rail rather than extending the network.
I've noticed Google Maps doesn't even show you which platform to use
i hope we get to a poitn in the future where there is enough free track in the city loop that we can esentially just have a mini circle line. having a single train (or 2) just going around the city loop would solve the issues of people no longer having access to other city stations and it would be very easy to maintain and run potentially even being driverless in the future.
I feel like something that could work is simply have a "City Loop" line rather than having to keep track of which lines are going through the city loop and which ones are just continuing on. I take the Werribee line so I'm used to having to get off at SthX to get to Melbourne Central but the fact there isn't just a dedicated loop service is so bizzare to me
It sounds great, but unfortunately I can almost guarantee a change of government will throw a massive spanner in the works, and it won’t happen.
Unless something truly drastic happens, I don't really see the Vic Libs winning in 2026. Even then, their main focus is on canceling the SRL and they've been supportive of the City Loop reconfiguration and the MM2 in the past. Given the obvious benefits and lowish price, I suspect both parties will commit to the CLR.
That's it, because it happened before...
@@clawscrab3497 knowing the opposition in Victoria, they’ll reopen level crossings that have been removed already 🤣🤣
@@holidaymail Wouldn't put it past them
Well unless the state opposition party can get their shit together, stop members from ongoing legal defamation cases against their leader, etc, then it will take a while for them to regain power.
If this is going to make Richmond even busier, it is about time (long overdue) that this major station is made accessible. Yes, it has ramps, but they are nowhere near compliant (no one in a manual wheelchair could not make it up one unless they were very strong). Why they have not installed lifts at Richmond by now is dumbfounding.
I definitely think with these city loop changes, changes to Richmond Station are NECESSARY for the future with the sporting precinct getting bigger and bigger. A proper footbridge to seperate sections of the MCG instead of having to close Brunton Ave would be gamechanging. Eddie McGuire floated this a few years ago
Werribee hasn't gone through the city loop for more than ten years. It's also one of the densest passenger occupancy lines, supporting one of the fastest growing regions in Australia... and has some of the worst peak hour frequency of them all. More lines through running might mean pressure taken off stations... but I highly doubt it would assist the lines themselves.
Any loop reconfiguration is going to be a huge benefit, but in my opinion all the current proposals basically take the "easy" approach of applying the fewest changes possible, which for such a critical part of the network is short-sighted. For example, running the Sandringham line through to the Werribee & W'town lines is simple because they both use the outermost tracks of the loop, but it's also one of the "least useful" cross-city services possible because it forms a giant U-shape around the Bay which is going to decrease its appeal and utility to passengers. More effort should be put in to creating cross-city services that provide the most utility and speedy connections to passengers across the wider network to get the most out of the core, even if it requires building a bit more infrastructure at the outset of the reconfiguration.
To me, the most effective reconfiguration would be one that maximises direct cross-city journeys and creates the most opportunities for cross platform interchanges. As there are no opportunities on that line group to change trains going the other way around the loop 'd take the Clifton Hill group out of the loop entirely and run it directly through to the Newport lines in the south, with one of the other South Eastern lines taking it's place. The Ringwood lines could then be linked through the to one of the other SE lines similar to Sydney's City Circle services, that way it's always possible to take a train directly into and out of the loop via Parliament on these lines, or use the existing cross-platform interchange to go direct via Flinders Street. I'd also re--use and reconfigure the existing Craigieburn line flyover to create a cross-platform interchange at a modified North Melbourne, allowing easy transfers between Craigieburn trains running to the SE via Flagstaff and those linking through to the SE via S. Cross. Finally, it would require a flyover/under and track duplication, but if the Upfield line were linked through to the Sandringham line you'd effectively have a completely segregated North-South Line able to run in an almost metro-style fashion, with only the S. Cross - Flinders Street viaduct being shared with other traffic. All of this would require the construction of more grade separation junctions and more station modifications on top of the other changes in common with other reconfiguration proposals.
Weird that the long term plan is to move busiest lines out of Southern Cross and Flinders Street. The...
- Frankston line
- Craigieburn line
- Werribee Line
- Melton/Sunbury Line
- Airport Line
- Cranbourne/Pakenham line
- Mernda Line
This will screw with my morning commute so hard. I get on at one end of the Pakenham line and sleep all the way to Flagstaff station where I work. Now I have to get off to go on the Frankston line, disrupting my sleep. PAIN.
Still a great upgrade tho, especially if it increases frequency.
This project (if and when it happens) is another step in Victoria's ongoing effort to convert their legacy suburban rail into true metro.
Through routing, multiple different routes through the CBD, removing regional (express) trains onto separate parallel tracks, removing level crossings, acquiring new rolling stock that prioritises wide aisles, wide doors and standees - it all moves the system away from traditional suburban rail and towards a metro style network.
I'm curious though, do you think this is better than what Sydney is doing, namely building a whole new parallel metro network from scratch? Do you think that Melbourne, by leveraging the infrastructure they have, will deliver metro sooner than Sydney, who are building all brand new?
Melbourne's capacity for good infrastructure is much, much higher than Sydney due entirely to geography.
Sydney isn't building a new metro for sake of getting a metro, it is just building new lines to a metro standard now. The projects Melbourne is doing is really just about improving the existing rail infrastructure, and bring it more into line with Sydney's existing rail network.
your quality is so good. you deserve way more views!
Very good insight. Glad someone made a video on this. Appreciate your input
Thanks for the nice aerial footage of Merri Creek and Clifton Hill, I don't get up that way very often! Guess I need an excuse to catch the Mernda line some time.
Richmond station already handles traffic for footy at the MCG, with huge after game peaks. In the short term all it may need is more weather protection along the platforms. Perhaps by fully enclosing the area keeping out rain and wind, but at least a roof over the full length. Hardly Hong Kong style easy transfers, but a (relatively) cheap and simple short term upgrade that should be able to be done in weeks.
As for the CBD, as well train connections Melbourne's tram network really shines - though Swanston Street seems to be at capacity the last few times I've been in Melbourne.
Maybe a metro to St Kilda might be needed medium-term to remove the 16 from Swanston/St Kilda Road - branch off metro1 with a stop on St Kilda Rd near the Alfred. But there's more billions gone, so not happening any time soon.
IDK man, I definitely feel like Richmond could do with a reno.
Richmond needs a roof regardless. Horrible station to interchange at.
@@Flarezap Sure, its tired and could do with more. But in the short term with all the money already committed, and other things being cut, any additional spend in the near term seems like it will have to be small and with quick delivery.
Mind you, I haven't been to Melbourne for a while. Richmond station may be more run-down than I expect by now.
i take the pakenham line every morning, around 8am we're packed in like sardines its insane how busy it gets.
Why am I watching this, I've never been to Melbourne or even Australia 😂
Then don’t watch it. Simple
it's a nice city!
@@transportfanaussie
I think he was saying that he found it interesting, even though he's not from here. He wasn't being dismissive in my opinion. (Although, it has to be said, you were! 🤨)
Video on MT2 would be great
Doing a single transfer is not a problem at all, as long as platforms & timetabling are set up for it. Years ago I lived in the southeast, using the Pakenham/Cranbourne line, but worked near Parliament - so I did a transfer at Richmond station to get there without going around the whole loop. This was super easy because trains were so frequent at Richmond, and it was typically a cross platform transfer. Like two minutes on the platform and only had to walk a few meters.
But now I live on the Upfield line. My current job is still around Parliament so this is actually convenient for me since it goes through the loop - but sometimes I want to go to Southern Cross or Flinders for something and that's where the pain is. Upfield trains come in on platform 1 at North Melbourne, and it's a side platform, not island. So any transfer to another line requires a pretty annoying walk up & down long ramps, or up & down some escalators. I've missed more than a few trains trying to rush platform 1 & another platform.
So yeah, this project is a total no-brainer to me as well, but I do think it really needs to come with a bit of a reconfiguration of North Melbourne & Richmond, plus good timetabling, to not impact commuters too badly.
No, they're not 4 "pairs" they are 4 individual separate tracks. This is an important distinction with big consequences.
For the train and PT dumb among us, does this difference you mention mean that this is a further increase, or a decrease in the carrying capacity, and change for improved efficiency?
I think "pair" in this context is the paired rails.
1 track has a pair of rails.
@@Dan_d00d A decrease, and when you consider the City Area as a whole it's much less efficient use of the infrastructure, which a reconfiguration would solve.
I remember when the city loop only consisted of Museum, Flagstaff & Parliament stations & you could catch a red rattler to St Kilda station.
Looking forward to the changes. Combined with the surburban rail loop, it's like Melbourne is finally going to get the rail infrastructure it's population deserves.
Very good and well explained about something which is complicated for the average punter. Sean D Rail Futures Inc member
Just as a thought experiment what are people's thoughts on running a dedicated loop only service? Having a continuous, dedicated radial service in one of the four tunnels may make CL transfers more intuitive and allow those on the through-running lines to get to their desired station more easily. Just an idea!
I like it in principle. They could run trains with more / larger doors, and fewer seats for moving more people. If they separated out the infrastructure they could run much lighter vehicles too in order to save on electricity / cost.
Though really this would be best as part of a wider metro system, rather than our current suburban system.
Ya then outer suburbs train terminate in say southern or flinders and not run the loop which adds more time to an already slow commute from farthest suburbs
@@PwerRanger01 Not a bad idea. I do prefer through running but maybe though could be reserved for a metro system?
Such a service would take up track and platform space that would result in less capacity and therefore less frequent services on other lines.
Unnecessary. We have free trams if someone wants to just go around the CBD.
When the Metro Tunnel opens, people will be able to use it to swap between the two halves, as there will be a direct connection between Melbourne Central/State Library and Flinders Street/Town Hall stations
just an update if your traveling on craigieburn line you don't need to change trains at north melbourne you can just hop of at town hall station and walk to flinders via underground subway...
Parkville station is also already complete as of this video’s upload while Town Hall and State Library stations would need to be completed before the tunnel can open as those are the two primary connection hubs with the rest of the network. Arden and Anzac stations may possibly open at a future stage.
I’d love to see your take on Brisbane’s plan, or lack thereof to leverage the Olympics as a motivating force for public transport improvements.
We had a decent vision released in 2011 called Connecting SEQ 2031. But since then good projects like Sunshine Coast rail have been delayed or scaled back, and the transformational projects that could fight our car centric culture have been quietly shelved, like the fabled Brisbane Subway. Instead we have wider roads, more toll tunnel proposals, and some extra long bendy buses.
Fantastic video!
The timing of infrastructure investment is important. There are some strong arguments for the Victorian Government to delay some worthwhile infrastructure spending eg
* Victoria (and Australia) currently has a housing shortage (media even calls it a crisis). Delaying infrastructure spending would free up labour and materials for housing.
* The Victorian Government has more debt than other states. Paying back some of this debt could reduce the interest costs. It could even improve the state’s credit rating.
* Melbourne had strict Covid lockdowns. Many people in some industries learned to work from home. This has reduced the short term need for increased transportation infrastructure capacity.
* inflation is above the Australian target of 2-3% per year. Surplus state and federal government budgets could put downward pressure on inflation.
This doesn’t mean the government can’t do the planning work. Or that the government can’t secure needed land.
I think that workers trained in infrastructure work don't usually construct buildings when there's no infrastructure to be done- though there are probably a few that do, and there would be SOME similarities between concrete highrise buildings and concrete bridges
from what I can tell, continuously building infrastructure is important for maintaining institutional knowledge- the whole reason rail infrastructure costs so much in the USA is because from like 1960-2000 there was basically nothing but minor track improvements, with few exceptions. While the broad knowledge on how to build a rail line isn't exactly something you can forget, the finer details sorta get lost as workers that have done that sorta work retire and move on, and those that do remember may not be totally up to date.
(of course, you can learn how other countries do their railways through collaborating with them- getting documents, sending engineers over, but to actually grasp the material they learn they have to BUILD the railway, you get what I mean? IDK how to explain it, I've seen videos explain this very well but I'm not great at getting my point across sometimes)
Hope this goes ahead, one thing I'm concerned about is the state gov racked up a fair bit of debt during covid and seems to be signalling a sort of 'austerity' to get the debt back under control - with cuts to public sector, infrastructure, etc spending.
Hope I'm wrong but would not be surprised if, after current Metro Tunnel finishes up, they choose not to start this to save money - even though that's the advised starting time.
Great vid! Just subscribed :)
Been really enjoying your videos - would love to see a video covering the Upfeild line issues and your suggestions for its future.
Im sure you know, the end of the line becomes single track and this always causes delays.
Its crazy to me that so much work has gone into level crossing removal along the line but not a peep on upgrading this.
Even if this sort of City Loop upgrade goes ahead, all the delays would be felt on the Glen Waverley line too?
There is also more to be said on connecting the line to Roxy/Craigieburn (there is currently unused tracks) and a new Campbellfield Station.
I do want to do a video on that sometime soon, in the meantime you should check out Taitsets new video on it czcams.com/video/4vZ71YFdDsc/video.htmlsi=YOC7KwWJMcfXkzSi
Yes it's broken, I used to catch the Frankston train to Parliament station on the loop, however all Frankston trains now terminate at Flinders St, leaving the only option a train swap at Richmond, however that is often a very bad idea as usually all the incoming morning trains are packed, so you end up running between platforms, getting frustrated and probably late. The same is probably true of North Melbourne, however I've never tried from there.
The Frankston train line used to alternate, one service through the loop, the next direct to Flinders St. To me the easy fix to cross city commute would be to have the direct to Flinders St trains then head on to Southern Cross, either becoming a service to the other side of the city, of heading through the loop.
If it did go to the loop, then swapping at Flagstaff would be way easier as the other train would most likely be a lot emptier at that point.
To me the best way to run it is for all lines to get a train through the loop, every second is best, however if not practical then one out of three, even one in four. This was you can plan your trip (assuming you want the loop) either swap trains for loop access, or get up a bit earlier and catch the direct loop service and avoid the train swap crush.
My other gripe is they brought out this concept of 'high capacity trains', all this was was a regular train with half the seats ripped out, as in more standing space, probably great if you nearer the city and your only on the train for say 20 minutes, however if you commute from the ends, standing for an hour to get to the city is not good, especially if your job has you standing all day - and there is the problem of kids - bring back the seats, improve the signalling and just run more trains, as in allow them to run closer to each other.
I disagree with the bit about trains emptying out and basically being empty before heading off the the rail yards, to me that was the best way, spreading out the load to all loop stations rather than have it all but full to the last station, upon which there is a flood of people getting off. Although with the relocation of the rail yards, a mute point.
I might have missed a detail but the biggest problem would be anti clockwise travel, currently only p2 services in the loop can take you central to spencer all the time, with the Dandenong trains going via the new tunnel , Frankston or Sandringham going to Newport, that is a gap a reconfiguration would create unless the Burnley group is constantly put anti clockwise
It’s interesting that Hurstbridge and Mernda is planned to still run around the loop when that is like, the most shouldn’t-be-doing-that line.
I'm not from Melbourne, but they could link the Hurstbridge/ Mernda line to the Lilydale / Belgrave lines. So it would do Suburbs then Jolimont, Parliament, Central, Flagstaff, Southern Cross, Flinders, Richmond and then suburbs. Sure the cross town trips wouldn't be as useful but it would still create a more efficient way to run the trains.
The Clifton Hill Group is the least busy and least problematic with loop running.
Why's that? It's pretty self contained and doesn't cause any issues with capacity IIRC. Reminder that Mernda is meant to get the Metro Tunnel treatment and through run to Weribee via Newport.
@@ollie2074 Aren't there issue with running Clifton Group lines counter clockwise through the loop?
@@Flarezap There is a flat junction that has to be navigated when running counter-clockwise. Running clockwise all day eliminates this issue with the Clifton Hill Group.
I think to finish the puzzle in the Upfield line skyrail, they should build a 3.81km tunnel from the City loop portal near North Melbourne to the Upfield Line at Royal Park. We can replace McCauley with an interchange to Metro tunnel at Arden than replace Flemington Bridge with a new Station nearby called Flemington Road. These platforms would be directly below the metro tunnel platforms at Arden. It only has two constraints. One being you will have to make sure you don't accidently tunnel into the new Arden station and two, the city loop connection. But the City loop would be reconfigured as part of this expensive project. Current plans for the City Loop Configuration see the Frankston and Craigeburn lines connect through the city loop and the Glen Waverly and Upfield lines connect through Flinders Street, but if we built it using my idea and building that extra 3.81km of tunnel from Flagstaff City Loop to the Upfield line near Royal Park. then Frankston would through run with Upfield through the city loop and this new tunnel and Craigebrun would through run to Glen Waverly via Flinders Street. And McCauley level crossing would be gone and this will be the last piece to upgrading the Upfield Line. I am estimating roughly $3 Billion for this new rail project. But it would be money well spent. As for the Alamein Line, well that should just become a shuttle service between Alamein and Camberwell with new platforms built on the siding at Camberwell for these shuttle trains
There is one major component to Metro trains that you didn't mention. The regional trains operating out of Spencer st station.
Build a new Richmond station nearer the MCG precinct with state of the art train switching and possible even covered over connecting the sports facilities?
Why can't every suburbs branch not run 2 lines one via each of the 2 downtown tunnels?
I’d really love to hear what you have to say about Brisbanes public transport and how you think it could be better :)
if cranbourne/pakenham travellers are going to have to change trains to access the city loop. whoever is in charge of caulfield station needs to desperately redesign it so that you can change platforms without tapping off and then tapping back on, just like every other station i can think of. whilst theyre doing that dandenong too would be nice
Wonderful speaking voice
What’s the 4th tunnel in the city loop going to be used for then?
Crazy that new line does not stop at Malvern, Armadale, Toorak or Hawksburn due to station length not long enough for new trains. How about making one (or more) of the later stations longer so people can swap lines and get onto new line.
I don't understand why some Australians have an anathema to transferring to a new train at a station en-route. It's literally a chance to stretch your legs.
It is mostly due to frequency. When trains run every 20-30 minutes off peek, those changeovers can take forever. During peek times it is less of an issue though as trains run a lot more frequently. I don't think it would be a big issue in the city loop though as every one of those stations are within walking distance of each other anyway and most people have a destination within the grid, so there are usually 2-3 stations that are roughly the same distance away.
They need to make a lot more express trains out of outer stations. None of the tracks at pakenham, epping, western lines support it
The lack of connections further out than the loop is 1 of the biggest issues to me. Currently everyone gets funneled into the middle of the city regardless of where there eventual destination is. Like Melbourne's ring road the city needs a ring rail about 10km out from the CBD. It needs that about as much as it needs a direct link to Tullamarine. 90,000 people a day go through Tullamarine airport every day and every one of them gets in and out of there by car (or bus).
that's what SRL is for
@@TheLostProbe . Currently at best case a train connection to the airport is expected no sooner than 2033. Dan the lockdown man announced that it (like the commonwealth games) would be going ahead. The rail connection to the airport has been on and off for 20+ years so far and it's at least another 10 before it's going to happen.
@@Alan_Hans__ I'm not talking about MARL, I'm talking about the rail loop that you said should be built to make cross-suburban travel easier by train, without needing to go into or near the city to change lines
bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/suburban-rail-loop
The one thing that I've clocked here is the implication that going from the south of the CBD to the inner northeast no longer requires a tram... Whilst this is true on paper, I've had to travel from Flinders and Southern Cross fairly regularly, and nearly always get a tram to do so since it is usually the fastest or most practical way there. I also suffer from the issue of needing to travel from the inner east to the northeast. I find it baffling that we have trams such as the 16 which cover such a niche as people who need to travel from Saint Kilda to Kew, yet we don't have a tram route covering the much busier passage from Burwood/Camberwell/Hawthorn to Collingwood/Fitzroy despite the fact that the tracks exist and it would make a shorter and more direct route than the 16 takes from Melbourne Uni to Saint Kilda to Kew. Demographically, as well, Burwood/Camberwell/Hawthorn/etc. have a heavy student population, and Collingwood/Fitzroy/Carlton are strong areas for employment for young people in Hospitality, The Arts and The Trades (particularly compared to the areas this demographic are living in) so having trams that skirt the CBD and go direct to the inner north and northeast is almost a no-brainer and the only cost involved would be introducing more trams to the fleet since the tracks already exist... I have errands to run fairly regularly in Fitzroy, and I only live in Hawthorn, but it cuts my day in half driving as opposed to getting a train or tram through the CBD unnecessarily or even BOTHERING with a bus, plus even with petrol prices being what they are, it is cheaper than the daily fare!
I wonder whether it might be possible from an engineering prospective to connect MM2 to the segment between Southern Cross and Melbourne Central. It is clearly more challenging than what IV had proposed and what's outlined here but could be potentially more beneficial and helpful in making MM2 a reality, as it would deem Flagstaff-2 and Parkville-2 stations unnecessary and would also create a more direct connection between Clifton Hill and Melbourne Central. Could be not only a huge saving on the CAPEX side of things, but also a much more approachable plan in terms of staging, as the sections between Newport and Southern Cross and Melbourne Central and Clifton Hill would become two completely operationally independent projects.
could you look at a possible project of ballarat and bendigo line trains running direct to traralgon via metro tunnel with a new type of vehicle a battery pantograph style trains like the alstrom Coradia Continental BEMU to reduce trips via southern cross
Hey Citymoose! Can I ask a question. I was wondering what country you're from since I was hearing your accent?
Born in South Africa, but moved to Perth when I was 13 (so I think it’s kinda a weird mix of the South African and Australian accents)
@@City-Moose oh ok in your bio it says UK in it.
@@City-Moose So you stayed in Australia or did you move to the UK like your about bio says?
I've been saying for years that it doesn't make any sense for half the city's population to fight each other through traffic and public transport just to be funneled into the same few square kilometers and spend the working day sitting at a desk in an office building when they have a computer at home. Covid proved this point and it now seems like Victoria is busily spending money on public transport infrastructure and capacity that wouldn't be needed it we adapted to the reality of modern working conditions instead of treating office jobs like industrial era factory work where productivity is tied to physical location and time. We're nearly a quarter of the way through the 21st century and we still treat work like we did in the 1800's
Wouldn't Craigieburn line passengers change at Melbourne Central and take the Metro tunnel to get to Flinders St?
Lots of options really. Metro tunnel probably quickest, but could change at north melbourne to go direct to Southern Cross then Flinders. Or could change at Parliment, or get a tram down Swantson from Melbourne central. Or even change at Richmond to go back into city lots going to flinders from there.
This whole proposal forgets that Melbournians are all half-vampires. We can't cross two bodies of running water. Crossed the Maribyrnong already? Crossing the Yarra is deadly. Crossed the Yarra? Crossing the Maribyrnong is certain death (or, at least, icky).
my only problem with this is that unless they are going to double track the Upfield line thr Glen Waverley line will struggle. Same can be said for Werrebie and Sandringham.
It makes no sense as to why you wouldnt have Glen Waverley through run to Werrebie+Williamstown and have Sandringham to Upfield
you can't even say it's for keeping the xtraps running east as the Upfield line doesn't even use extras whereas Williamstown and Werrebie do.
For context, trains can terminate at Werrebie on one of three platforms, terninate at williamstown on one platform, terminate at glen waverly on two platforms, terminate at upfield on one platform and terminate at sandringham on one platform.
The only way i see making Sandringham viable for Werrebie is to restore Platform 1 at Brighton Beach and have some trains terminate there and some at Sandringham or Build a new platform at Sandringham
The sandringham line only physically has one connection of track to the other lines and that is onto the frankston line just past richmond making upfield line impossible to connect to as it stands. The frankston line would take the pakenham lines' spot in the city loop as there is connection there for it to happen, and then the sandy line would just fill the frankston platforms at flinders st.
Recommend taitset videos on richmond junction and metro tunnel to explain better
Need to work out how to cut down the time from farthest suburban stations. Takes too long. Should have outer service express then cut the inner suburbs out. Get the time down to 20 - 25 mins from farthest stations.
still wondering why y'all don't have an airport link.
In your about section, it says you live in the UK. Why is that?
We need an outer rail loop much more than more ways to go through city. Waste of 2 billion that could go towards opening up options between lines.
An outer loop is supposed to happen and work on it has in fact already started. (Although I would not be at all surprised if budgetary problems cause its completion to be indefinitely postponed.)
@@philroberts7238. If it actually happens, I don’t like the chances of it being compketed in our life time
@@smokiebear3099 No, me neither!
@philroberts7238 its one of those vapourware projects. It looks good to voters but is really just mist.....
Do we even need extra capacity? I haven't been on a packed train at peak hours since before COVID.
You COULD change at NM and RICH for the city stations you line now skips.... or you can ride into either side you're on and take the swap at either the new Town Hall or State Library too, There's a few options really.
I wonder though ... would it be better - instead of sending al train on the same line the same way .. to alternate ... so if I'm on the Frankston line and I want to go to Melbourne Central .. if all the trains are going Flinders-SX then I have to change at Richmond or Flinders ... instead I'd think it would be easier if could just wait 3-5 minutes and then next train would go Parliament-Central-Flagstaff ... I'm guessing the wait time at the station of origin would be less than the time loss cause by the change, particularly with platform changes ..... I'm guessing the Flinders st to Town Hall change is going to be a long walk ... this may created horrible overcrowding at Richmond station or put pressure on the city tram network....
That would only work if the trains ran at a very high frequency, every 5 minutes or better. If there was only a basic 10 minute service then you would only get a 20 minute service on each alternative. And if the basic service was 20 minutes then it would split into two 40 minute services.
How does re-arranging the loop increase capacity? The same amount of rails remains? I don't get it
You take two lines that loop around the center and hook them together into one through running line, you effectively double the amount of trains that can run through the loop. By only using one part of the loop (instead of all of it), you leave the other part to serve other lines.
Think of it this way: instead of, say, four lines going through the whole loop, you have two lines through-lining on one section and two lines through-lining on the other section. If you keep all services as they are, each part of the loop will be running half the trains they did before the through-lining (assuming equal service on all four lines beforehand); leaving ample space for more trains to be added to their respective schedules.
@@godozo Thanks for the considered response. I will need to read it a few more times to get it
Changing trains at southern X, Flinders, Nth melbourne and richmond is a nightmare at the moment. A lot of work would need to be done here to make it convenient. Otherwise the reconfig sounds worse than whats existing
Metro Loop 2 video now!!
YES
If you're inside the loop you'd take a free tram. 😊 But im from Geelong so I dont know much. (Very informed comment section here!)
Since I live down the Mornington peninsula way I just get on any train that goes to Richmond and swap over there
So in the reconfiguration plan are they looking to use the spare loop tunnel for anything?
Which spare tunnel?
@@soulsphere9242 5:28 shows only 3 train lines running through the city loop tunnels when there are 4 lines
@@alexrox727 The green line will be through-running, so it will use two tunnels, one in each direction. Thats how I understood it.
@soulsphere9242 ak ok that makes sense. Thanks for that.
I think its very good. stony point is not in the loop and look where that got it
Sandringham and Weribee, like linking Toorak and Cragirburn
Happy to change trains as long as services are mych more frequent. Trains every 30m or hour just isn't good enough for that
City loop doesn't have "4 pairs of tracks", it has 4 bidirectional tracks.
Obviously it is, hence the metro tunnel.
I love your warm buttery voice 🫠
he does have a lovely speaking style. his quality is far higher than what his view count should be
The sad thing is that these new changes should have been made decades ago. Instead, governments kept putting money into roads like we're America.
Is that you actually speaking in the video or is it AI? it's blowing my mind
It is me speaking haha
this actually made it into the 2022 coalition election manifesto - alongside the northern capacity upgrade works!
Pog video
Wait this actually sounds awful overall? It makes some routes take longer to get where they would normally go (see Williamstown) and now the majority of trains that would allow people to go from 'home' to X station along the loop, now means unless where they're going is on this new 'half' loop for their line, they have to switch trains, and thus is just strictly worse for the consumer?
$2bn? Technically possible I guess, but I’d be shocked if it comes in under 6 given recent blowouts
nothing could make me hate the city loop
Sydney's public transport shits on Melbourne's. It's why investors in the latter are savvy and those in the former are now hurting from falling property prices.
I just moved to Melbourne and god the trains are confusing
But I still believe Melbourne railway is a lot better than the one in Auckland
Everything's being overburdened because the government is bringing hordes of foreigners here. Our City should continue to be modern, to be relatively sparsely populated; predominantly by our own people, spacious, healthy and free.
Just shows you why infrastructure planners propose Business Cases and not politians. Instead of this project and metro tunnel 2 we'll get the Cheatham and Box Hill line for 10x the cost.
That outer city loop is so stupid. If they really want outer suburban rail loops we should pull up part of the ring roads instead and put above ground rail through that ROW.
@@shraka I suggest you think this out a little. The puropose of the SRL has been made very clear, and your alternative would not have the same function. Also, as much I'd like the idea of replacing the ring roads with train lines, it would meet resistance like we have never previously seen.
@@user-wy4ci7yj6b Political feasibility sounds like an everybody else problem. I’m sticking to my dreams of demolishing half the freeways for more rail. It’d cost less in the long run too - freeways are staggeringly expensive to maintain. Not my problem that everyone loves to frivolously burn money.
As far as I can tell the purpose of the SRL is to spend an absolute fortune on tunnels to pick up some votes. Bleh. Build a proper metro instead.
It won't be a suburban rail loop. They'll complete this section and run out of money and we'll be calling it the loop that doesn't loop. I think you can achieve a lot more for less (for example, this project)
@@RcottR For sure. I think we need some city bypasses too. We might not have the capacity for a train at first so maybe some radial tram loops to start - from Collingwood through Carlton and Flemington then down to Footscray to start.
Unfortunately they’re spending all their money on big gamble projects like SRL and North East link
Both projects r long needed
SRL is really needed to be running already, but its impossible to start it 30 years ago now. The timeframe on it is diabolical, but Australia (and USA and Canada) don't seem to be able to do infrastructure at a reasonable cost or time.
SRL is a development project more than it is a rail project. It's necessary to stop sprawl and focus development around stations.
North East link is guaranteed to be a colossal waste of money and a big failure at achieving any of the objectives. Highways simply don't work.
@@JohnFromAccounting agreed, I think suburban rail loop is a good project, but I'm not entirely sure whether it's justified putting it over other projects like: Western rail plan, Airport rail and Melbourne metro 2. As for North east link. It's money going to freeways which in todays day and age, isn't great economically or environmentally
@@TheGreatLordDufusDon't forget the UK. Prolly worse than Australia, Canada
Am I the only one feeling like once again, client liaison is briefing me on transport matters? I mean, trains are fun, but where is my off white limousine?
The "just accept it" mentality I think will see some people who are already intimidated by Melbourne's PT and use it infrequently, move to using car transport.
For me personally, I find it annoying that my line will "run through" on the northern CBD stops, that I almost never use. I am either getting off at Flinders or Southern Cross and will now have to factor in a change/wait time when using trains. This is both annoying and in certain situations will see me not use it. Honestly, I hate the idea...
Your comment sounds stupid
Hmmm.... CZcams is spying on me. How else would it know that I am on the train from Melbourne?