JUNKYARD TURRBO 4.8L-E85 VS INTERCOOLER
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- DO YOU NEED INTERCOOLIING WITH E85? ! FULL DATA & RUNS! CHECK OUT THIS JUNKYARD TURBO 4.8L RUN ON E85 WITH AND WITHOUT AN ATW INTERCOOLER. TEST RUN AT MULTIPLE BOOST LEVELS. THIS VIDEO HAS IT ALL, (,HP &, TQ, CHARGE TEMP & BOOST VS BACK PRESSURE). HOW HIGH DOES THE CHARGE TEMP GET ON A NON-INTERCOOLED COMBO? HOW MUCH POWER IS AN INTERCOOLER WORTH? IT'S ALL HERE.
The e85 will cool the charge a lot running no intercooler (to the point of not needing an ic), but to get the same maf you'd need to increase the boost pressure (in some cases putting the turbo into a more efficient zone on the compressor map).
The other part to consider is that with higher iats comes the ability to run richer alcohol mixtures while still having good vaporization. More vaporized alcohol = more power because alcohol is oxygenated and absorbs heat.
If you run the same setup at the same maf values, intercooled vs non-intercooled, the non-intercooled will be making more power because the combustion is more efficiently turned into mechanical force.
Not to mention intercoolers weigh a lot and are restrictive like a catilytic converter.
I was hoping for Gas Intercooled, VS E85 Non Intercooled... I'd love to see That!
E85 WINS I SUSPECT-WE CANT RUN 20 DEGREES OF TIMING ON PUMP GAS
I was wondering the same thing. 91 with IC and e85 non-IC
Love the music! Great video, Richard!!
You should get one of those gauges from Banks that gives you air density
I have it in my Audi and it is awesome.
You mean a maf
@@joshuafarwell9761 basically
The benefits of e 85.
Cleaner emissions
A cooler engine
May not need a radiater
Won't need an intercooler
Can get at many local pumps
The bad
Twice the fuel consumption.
Bloodviking, racen, engine builder
Wow, thanks for all the data and the dyno pulls in the video Richard! Great work!
Wish you guys were running a MAF on the Westech dyno and had the ability to calculate manifold air density but I don't think the Holley stuff can run a MAF. I think if you could see the manifold air density it would show why more power was made with the intercooler vs. without.
Adding a boost gate on the intake side plus a turbo tach would allow you to control the turbo RPM and compressor flow. In turn that would let you keep the compessor at max efficiency. That would let you stay in the highest efficiency zones of the compressor map. That means a cooler charge going into the engine. (You would still need to keep the standard waste gate)
Every time I have a question, Richard has tested it. Thank you!
Interesting content, look forward to each upload and learning more
Awesome video Richard. I love the IAT and timing data on this one
Every single time I hear the words VS racing gen 2 7875 makes me want one even more !
Great test hope you have watched some of Gale Banks testing on his Diesel engines he has some giant MAF sensors that he uses to measure all of the air data 👍👀
I think lots of his work he uses the stock motronic ecu and edits the tables in them, especially if he is doing emission compliant stuff. He is really attentive to airflow data and afr though, I don't know if he could keep everything as clean as he tries to using speed density.
Always great content can’t wait too test my 4.8 turbo setup, you helped me a lot with understanding turbo builds the proper way
Loving the data! Thank you Richard.
Higher octane fuels don't make much more power 7nless you add compression or more boost for the fuel being used. A switch to pure alcohol may get you 60 to 80 hp from, a big block. So take full advantage of the e85. And without an intercooler you will not get as much turbo lag and not clutter up the engine bay as much with no intercooler.
Bloodviking
I had a rental truck back in the day for a short period of time. It was a red ex cab GMC.
I floored it from a dead stop one day and I pinstriped the asphalt road for almost a quarter-mile!! I was like holy
Interesting that boost/backpressure crossover is at almost the same rpm as torque/hp. I looked at the "jagged" temp reading chart a couple times before I realized that the irregular part of the boost was only about half a psi. Good video.
SCALE IS IMPORTANT
The boost response thing is interesting, and exactly what I've found too- Despite everyone claiming bigger intercoolers and longer boost pipes make things more 'laggy', in all testing I've done, and that's a fair bit, bigger/better intercoolers tend to give the biggest jumps in performance at low/mid rpm when the boost is first coming in.
The intercooler richard uses flows a TON! The typical horizontal flow air to air intercoolers most use don't. Not many street cars run an nice air to water setup like the one used in his tests. Put the crap EBAY IC most use on it, and do the same test. At the typical boost level of 15-20+ and you'll see more like an 8psi difference in boost at the same WG setting. So the non intercooled setup does typically have better response. Also spraying meth pre turbo in large volumes improves response and gains boost. Still wont' cool the charge as much as a nice A2W, but it helps a little and is great for eliminating detonation.
@@AdamOpheim not talking about flow or boost levels.
Result has always been the same be it an eBay intercooler or a big name one.
If its big enough, and intake temps drop significantly, the dyno results always have shown the biggest jump in performance was at low rpm when it's first coming on boost.
Same peak boost numbers etc, and the only thing can realistically put it down to is drastically lower intake temps.
@@StavTech But you have to incorporate flow, IC efficiency, and boost levels because they are directly related to response. If the turbo has to make 30lbs to see 20 at the intake. The "response" will be effected. If the ebay A2A is only 50% effective at reducing charge temps while The A2W unit used with cool water is 95%+ effective... You won't see those drastically lower intake temps with the typical A2A. How many guys are running an A2W fed by 60-70* water? It makes the test much less relevant to what we would actually see in our cars.
@@AdamOpheim I’m not talking about anything like he has.
I’m talking dyno proven back to back tests on various relatively low power 4cyl turbo engines, comparing stock intercoolers to aftermarket upgrades.
And the results always have been the same when the before intake temps were bad with the stock coolers.
I TESTED ATA AND ATW, OF VARIOUS MAKES, THE CX RACING ATW COOLER DOES EXACTLY THE SAME AS THIS PROCHARGER UNIT. THE ATA CORES FROM CX RACING DROPPED THE CHARGE TEMPS THE SAME. 8 PSI DIFFERENCE? NO
So Finally: Is it better with or without an I/C when running methanol? Do a test please!
Technically, with still. If weight and complexity is zero issue. But often the benefits are not worth it, hence most don't. But some do because there's still power to be had.
Technically, either is good, but most people who don't have enough space in the engine bay to mount either an air to air or water to air intercooler, meth is a great alternative, but meth added to an air to air intercooler can make a big difference. I haven't experimented with meth injection, but I usually do see a big difference in air intake temperatures with air to air intercoolers.
IT ALWAYS HELPS-BUT WEIGHT
@@Brock_Landers The caveat is the IAT drop reported doesn't match the HP gain W/ water/meth. Even when sprayed in each runner with equal distribution. The sensors that measure the temp drop are saturated and report back false data. If the IAT sensor was right, METH inj would be more efficient than intercooling. If the Charge temps were really as low as the "wet" sensor reported, the power would increase on par with the temp drop. IE if the sensor says it dropped from 300 to 100, the HP curve should rise just as it would with a good IC pulling 200*. But it doesn't! Water/meth is great at pulling heat form the CC. Its more like race fuel and prevents detonation. Sure there is a small amount of charge cooling, but It's NOT an IC! It will NEVER perform like one with the small volumes and mixtures these kits are spraying.
Don't forget, where the fuel is t
Introduced into the intake makes a difference as well. I would guess that the same engine/ setup while non-intercooled would make more power with a throttle body injection vs port injection.
Yes. The e85 will cool the charge a lot but to get the same maf you'd need to increase the boost pressure. With higher iats comes the ability to run richer alcohol mixtures while still having good vaporization. More vaporized alcohol = more power because alcohol is oxygenated.
If you run the same setup at the same maf values, intercooled vs non-intercooled, the non-intercooled will be making more power because the combustion is more efficiently turned into mechanical force.
You can also scale airflow from lambda and pulsewidth. If I had to guess, the run with 530ftlbs torque probably had an injector pw of about 3.5ms at 5300rpm. These are really big injectors, like enough for 1700hp on e85. If they intercooled run had the same afr and you know the injector pw you can estimate the airflow, it's not perfect but it's a proxy for airflow.
Comment for the algorithm 👍
This is what I got out of this, get your turbo and injectors in, run e85 and set the tune and have low boost, when you can build money back up then get intercooler and turn her up I mean UP.
Great info! What’s the most power you’ve made on a non intercooled engine on e85? And when would you start to worry? I know a very subjective question!
would it be possible to use a intercooler from a junk yard maybe off a diesel or something? i think it may make a cool video if it is possible.
YES IT IS POSSIBLE
That's a cool idea
Why not a junkyard build using parts found at a yard🤷♂️
I've used a factory 6.7 powerstroke air-to-water intercooler with great success on a turbo 5.3. very compact and efficient!
For a video it would be a kick in the nuts. Almost every diesel has a big or.huge air to air intercooler and they work great on the road but not so much in the dyno cell without a huge fan and air exchange. On the dyno an air to water charge cooler works really good when you have thousands of gallons of room temperature water to pump through it. I like guys swapping a diesel intercooler into their turbo gas trucks. They are really big and have all the factory parts for a clean installation.
cool another turbo video
I'd bet the boost response is from the extra exhaust volume made from more air pushing into the cylinders caused by the denser air. Almost like artificially increasing displacement a bit.
MORE POWER - MORE EXHAUST FLOW-EQUALS BETTER RESPONSE
I'd like to see some i for on water-meth injection. I saw you on an episode of engine masters, but glazed over the set up.
Injector location test, PLEASE!!! LOL
I'd like to see this type of test with the engine running on methanol. I see a ton of people that don't run a intercooler when they're running methanol.
Yes the intercooler helps
Spoiler
@@chipcurrey653 I feel like I've already learned too much because in the intro to videos I already know the results, but I still watch to verify
You definitely can here the the turbo spool earlier on the inter cooled runs! That thing sounds like a jet engine!
it is much happier with the IC
Richard, you should look into some of the new quick-response IAT sensors that have come to market recently. The IAT should mirror the boost curve as the air temp will rise instantly when compressed. Hyperaktive sells a nice one that I will be installing shortly for pre-IC temps. Also, have you found that you will see a corresponding rise in EGT when the IAT is higher? Thanks
This is why I love Richard 😁
Richard would the long length of a rear mount turbo and e85 offer enough cooling to run 15 pounds of boost on the street without an inner cooler?
rear mount testing is happening
Thanks for all the hard work your doing 😀
Yes... and even without that extra cooling 15lbs is nothing to run non intercooled on E85. I run E60 on 19lbs without any issues. With remote setups you want smallish diameter piping all the way to and from the turbo. 3" piping to and from kills the setup. For 15lbs you can run 2.25 to the turbo and 2.5" charge piping. The response difference will be night/day. I wish there was more dyno testing here with hotside and cold side piping diameter changes. I ran a 2" divided hotside at over 1000 crank HP 4.8. (thats 1.88" ID) The difference in response was huge. And my 4.8 spooled the big T6 S480 no problem. For guys making 500-600hp. I'm betting there's little reason to run over 2".
The math says there will be more power added by an intercooler, because the IC frequently has turbulators inside the tubes for better heat exchange. IF the tube from the rear has turbulators installed, and IF there's equivalent surface area for heat exchange, then possibly you could get away with no IC on a rear mount. Run the equations that are in Bell's or MacInnes' books and see what you'd end up with, IC vs.Non IC. You have to assume a great deal with these equations, but if you run different starting temps, to account for changing seasons, you can get an decent idea of how your car will respond. I plan to run an A2A IC on my rig (Chevy 250-6, blowthru carb) and I'm only figuring on 7 pounds, because the gas I can get is a bit sketchy sometimes. For me, the A2A IC will be detonation insurance.
I
I have a really reasonable question about the balance on this engine...you say it uses gen4 rods and some lr4 engine have them factory, some. If it has gen4 rods are you using a gen4 crank as well? I read one post where the swap on a LQ9 had a bob that was 52grams heavier. I know the pistons might be lighter though how much when the replacement has a dome is questionable.
IT WAS BALANCED-GEN 3 CRANK THOUGH
I would love to see a test using a refrigerated intercooler using the a/c system. I'm especially interested in seeing how much of a temperature drop that's achievable, and how much of a parasitic loss the a/c pump would be.
Yes you can get pretty efficient small ones from electric cars that have fast DC charging or build something like the demon power chiller
I run a Killer Chiller setup (AC chiller like the Demon power Chiller but better) on my Audi S4 and when I forget to turn the AC off before a 1/4 mile the car runs about two tenths and two mph slower.
So John Doc talked smackdown. I need you duplicate his build. is it possible. And how far backwards do you have to go to really go optimize the 4.8 on a stock bottom end. You got this.
still not sure what you are talking about
Could you edit in a segment that looks at 7psi with IC vs 10.5psi non-IC? This would be close to a scenario of what happens IC vs Non-IC at 620hp boost levels. I would like to see power&torque curves, Boost&back pressure curves. and temperature curves.
I have a 4.8 in my truck. I. would love to have that kind of power
Great info!!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Wonder what the difference would be with an air to air intercooler?
Right on
Hey unrelated question.... if I increase the rocker ratio from let’s say 1.6 to 1.7 I know it changes the lift. But does it have any effect on the duration?
VERY SLIGHT
Is this your answer to john doc's challenge ? 😆
WHAT CHALLENGE?
@@richardholdener1727 he challenge you to a spool contest
Great test! IAT were climbing but no apparent damage. I would say no brainer forget the IC up to the 10 psi you tested in E85. It just begs the question, how high of IAT can you go with increasing boost non IC before damage? We know methanol can go very far non IC but how far can Non IC E85 go? Maybe food for thought some day for another test. Thanks.
It can go VERY high *IF* you know how to tune for it. My IAT pegs 255 (max GM sensor reads) well before the 1/4 on 19lbs Its fine. And I only run 60% ethanol. Read about this guy. He won drag week non-intercooled with an 8.50 ET average. www.hotrod.com/articles/chris-bishir-wins-ls-fest-drag-week-back-back/
The actual IATs were not climbing. The sensor response is just slow. The IAT would follow the boost curve if the sensor was fast enough.
Should have used an air to air not a 70’ dyno water air to water. That would have been a better comparison. Actual street cars not iced intercooler tanks. Even a air to water on the street is 20’ over ambient.
having run a ATW on the street for many years-mine was at or near ambient when cruzing with a good heat exchanger
Results shown are typical. Rule of thumb I use is every 4'C colder gains 1% power, normally aspirated. Turbo's gain more as density goes up.
Would have been an interesting result to do two runs and throw 2 degrees timing each run at it. intercooled.
I DID TIMING CHANGES WHILE TESTING
@@richardholdener1727 keep up your good work!
Intercoolers are for people who run cheap fuels. Intercoolers are also flow restriction. You want to make big power non intercooled with cheap fuel get a BBC .
Sorry you are very poorly informed
Even if it is a flow restriction, a manifold referenced waste gate usually negates that and most modern turbos actually have a higher efficiency at a little higher pressure ratio when boost is this low. Almost every single supercharged or turbocharged race car will have an ice tank for the intercooler and q16 fuel if they can. Nobody would take an intercooler off to try to add power. His last video he added almost 30hp adding the intercooler and keeping the boost and ignition timing the same.
@@timothybayliss6680 Does a flow restriction reduce power?
Are there turbo engines making 1000 hp non-intercooled? how about 2000hp non-intercooled? 3000 hp?
If X turbo flows 1000 hp does adding a intercooler add another 100hp to equal 1100hp total?
ok Boomer....
Can you do a test on flat plane crank?
NO THNX
The extra heat reduction of the intercooler it’s probably requiring another 4-5• of timing so the non-ic curve wouldactually be more optimize than the intercooler one would be
Indeed, supercharged LSA/LS9 engines are able to run high 20's on E85 at 12-14 psi so 26-27 on this engine at 7 psi should be pretty safe.
NO CHANGE IN TIMING
@@richardholdener1727 We know Richard, just saying there's even more power on the table with the IC setup
What AR was that 78/75? I know the gen 1 had a couple options
What about air to air ic?
What size wastegate should be used with a 92mm gt45
WE USE DUAL 45S
Why would anyone run low boost with e 85. Pointless.
The coast of e85 and remember it take 2 gallons of alcohol to equal 1 gallon of gas in millage comparison its like you get 8 mpg in your street car now 4 mpg on e85 abouts. So boost it on e85 until detonation with no intercooler then back of about 2 to 3 psi.
Bloodviking
a 50% drop in mpg? That would be a big no
Is the procharger a/w intercooler worth the cost over cx racing intercooler?
THEY ARE THE SAME AT THIS POWER LEVEL (IF YOU PICK THE RIGHT ONE)
What happen to the K24 ???????
its coming
I'm a fan of intercooler but there's one big negative its weight
Meh. Add one more pound of boost.
@@gordongullon152 and be much safer with the ability to run more timing. there is no downside.
Weight and the pressure drop across the core with typical A2A ebay junk IC's every one uses. What street car uses an A2W w/ 60-70* dyno water on tap? Generally IC vs NON -IC gains aren't that high because the IC isn't that efficient. Also at big boost you can see a 5-10psi drop across the ebay A2A intercooler. Not to mention the engines on the motor dyno typically read 20-30hp higher than in the typically run config in a car. So instead of a 28HP difference at 7lbs you'd likely see at 10-15hp diff once the motors in the car with the junk A2A people use. You're basically talking less than the HP you'd see from raising the boost 1lb. E85 will support more boost and power than most people will ever make. So if you aren't going to run a nice intercooler, keep the junk IC off the engine.
@@AdamOpheim some of that pressure is artificially created by heat.
@@AdamOpheim i literally know no one that uses cheap intercoolers. Your friends need to up their game
I like Rich but some of his tests aren't fair or sensible.
Bv
Turn it up😂😂
Dose the timing curve change with IAT changes?
NO
Explain air molecules
oxygen
What about carb applications, should you run a intercooler even though the fuel would cool it?
IT STILL ADDS POWER
Sweet as
When you measure boost is that at the inlet manifold or the compressor?
MANIFOLD
I'd kind of like to see this same test on a blow thru just to see if it makes much of a difference if any
INTERCOOLER ADDS POWER EVEN ON A BLOW THROUGH CARB
@@richardholdener1727 I figured it would but it's just so many people out there that says it's pointless to do so and gains wouldn't be significant
New to turbos but why do you use dual wastegates on a single turbo?
better control on the engine dyno
@@richardholdener1727 thanks man! Does that matter on the street? I have a 6.0 w/s475 e85 ring gap, I’m a little worried about back pressure. Should I be? 13psi?
I know at 28 psi and 19 degrees you get spaghetti rods non intercooled hahahha
YES
@@richardholdener1727 I experimented this summer running non intercooled on e85! The internet says it’s a thing, I found out unless your spraying tons of meth it’s very not. Unless you run extremely low timing but still touchy at high boost. Also found it strange the rods tweaked to one side every time. Unlike pump gas which usually squashes the rod straight down.
@@savagerb28 Depends on the setup and if you know what your doing. Good example of someone that knows what they are doing on a non intercooled setup below. Yes, a nice A2W would have made more power for sure! But is more power needed? Esp. for the typical street hotrodder? I'd say 8.50 average 1/4 mile SBE 5.3 that competed and won drag week with no issues is faster than most here will ever go in their toys. If you can make 1000+ HP without an IC... Why do 500-600whp cars need an IC with E85? www.hotrod.com/articles/chris-bishir-wins-ls-fest-drag-week-back-back/
@@AdamOpheim I don’t disagree with you at all you can run none intercooled but you are just always at the edge of detonation and you don’t usually want to be with a SBE thats already on the edge. So it’s really not worth it when you combine the loss of performance. I know it was hell of a lot easier to get my car to 8.6@160 with an intercooler on a sbe.
@@savagerb28 Always going to make more power per pound with a *good* IC. BUt as the link I provided shows its possible. He later turned that setup to 32psi I believe and went 8.20's... then 8.1x's and hurt it.
For most watching this, they aren't looking to run 8's. They are running garbage ebay A2A intercoolers on street cars. So comparing dyno cooled A2W runs VS non intercooled runs isn't a good comparison. I understand Richard can't run an A2A in a cell. Just stating the facts.
For all the guys wanting to know if they'll blow their cars up on 10-15lbs non intercooled on E85 the easy answer is absolutely not. Probably better off without the junk A2A at those power levels IMO.
where do you put the backpressure sensor?
IN THE Y PIPE
You going do a 4.8 large frame turbo spool off with John doc?
people keep asking about John-I don't know the guy
@@richardholdener1727 called you out on his youtube channel yesterday
@@richardholdener1727 John Doc is just another rich You Tuber that has more dollars than sense. He just does build after build with mediocre results. Just throwing junk you there to try and get more views lol!
Intercooler on an NA motor
For what? All that becomes is an inlet restriction. NA engines take in ambient air.... intercoolers use... AMBENT AIR to reduce the heat incurred from compressing an intake charge.
An NA engine will never need an intercooler
@@edmundnlemadim8480 without testing it you just know it won't have an effect? Pesonally I'd like to see real numbers and since he has intercoolers and NA motors it shouldn't be to much of a problem.
Personally I blame squirrels
I think its time to get some new material
I don't think turbos really make power
😂
should have pump gas intercool vs e85 no intercooler
PUMP GAS WOULD GET KILLED-CAN'T RUN ENOUGH TIMING
@@richardholdener1727 on the dyno with a single gear pull, yes, but in the quarter mile running through more than one gear the IAT's would be way higher and my bet is you would have to lower timing on the non-intercooled to make it through the quarter without detonation. It would certainly be an interesting test either way :)
I am so damn tired of you running basically the same engine all the time......the LS Chevy. Oh, yeah, you throw in some others once in awhile but not much at all. You are about to lose an interested subscriber.
LS for life!!! Wooooohoooo!!!
OF THE LAST 10 VIDS-1 WAS A 4.8l
Isn’t most of this data, applicable to other applications?????
Every video offers new lessons to be learned, thanks for the content
@@mrbigg7255 yeah