Gore Vidal on the Democrats and religion
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- How different would a Democratic Party administration be?
"The Democratic Party is a machine to get votes for its people. None of whom should probably be elected to the high offices of state. The Republican Party is fundamentally crooked."
"A fool and his money are soon elected." Will Rogers
Or, as in the case of Trump a fool and his borrowed money.
Respect for Gore Vidal, unfortunately the majority of the US population wont be able to grasp any of it.
America
An uneducated nation. You get what you pay for
This channel hasn't caught on the way it should. I've seen another interview here with Brezinski. I hope this channel grows.
Even in a wheelchair, he thinks on his feet--quite brilliantly.
Who says democracy has ever existed in the US? Voting system? lol.... Ask W Bush and see how much he'd laugh at the voting system, because he made a big mockery out of it in both 2000 and 2004. Democracy. How funny.
Only tax the evangelicals, the prods. They only believe you are blessed if you are moneyed. Theres no other objective of an organised evangelical ministry but to get loaded, but they won't grace the world with any fine architecture or art.
It was the year 2000 Jesus was comin' any minute now! Who needed Nelson and David Towers?
WIthout winning or losing,
he's probably been himself during his life
He occupies with the truth, and nothing but the truth
"Let us tax ALL religions..."
Gore Vidal is wise and prescient..
Vidal nailed it.
Gore Vidal was a very smart but extremely complex individual. I don’t believe he even understood himself.
Maybe not, but at 0:23 he clearly understands his country.
Very true. Vidal's a thinker.
it would be even better if neither one of those institutions existed.
The US Constitution is a direct product of the French and English Enlightenment which was founded on knowledge of a newly emerging understanding of the world. Our so-called Information Age is at an early stage of the same process. Gore Vidal has always contributed to this effort by stating the obvious. Personally, I would formulate John Edwards approach: GREEN COLLAR WORKER.
Good point. The interviewer seems to be describing what is often called "liberal Christianity," which has (for the most part) jettisoned the fundamental doctrines of historical Christianity in favor of a sort of religiously inspired humanism.
The power to tax is the power to destroy. For all of the talk of freedom, Vidal prevaricates his opinion hinting at using the power of the IRS to silence dissent. The IRS should be abolished along with the Federal Reserve. Ron Paul/Gary Johnson 2012.
He is speaking to the whole content of what Jesus said....to the essence, from which one can look at a life and see something. It is from ones heart that all actions come, not from ones words.
... to be run for private profit.
Thus, any sensible religious teaching advocating things such as concern for others, or help for the poor, is lost in a sort of religious capitalist free-for-all. As a European, I would say American evangelical churches are the total antithesis of religion as I know it.
Damn!!
@hamnose
"Tax religions"
...Better yet, END religions.
And you, Brute'. Liberalism leads to liberality
And Conservatives are just OVER THE TOP drama!
@buddybleau A good person can make positive light out of any base story, and a bad person can twist any base story into a negative and destructive entity. And that is the basic truth I think.
You can't possibly judge the entirety of religion because it is so diverse.
@MultiSmartass1 Like Reverend Al Sharpton? Or the Black and Latino Religious Communities?
Agreed
@hozzymannen I second that!! Religion is a business.
My aunt is religious but she had to bail out of her church in Columbus, Ohio (ugh.) because they kept railing against democrats.
Not surprising considering the times.
Comedy and parody are protected forms of speech. Having worked in journalism and gone to journalism school I and my classmates learned about the different forms of free speech and what constitutes slander and defamation, which are in fact illegal.
"The maniac even thinks the goverment should tax your church"
either every institution bares the tax burden or no one does. i don't see why chruches must be exempt.
How do you know that there is a heaven?
when asked what it's like to die, how would you answer?
What was it like before you were born?
Are you referring to me? Just curious. :D I was just disagreeing with the interviewer's "understanding" of Christianity. And I don't care for Gore Vidal too much either, but he has the right to say whatever he wants (as long as it does not slander or defame anyone, which are the only illegal forms of speech).
@hamnose
Have you read Daniel Dennett? He often gets overlooked because of the larger popularity or Hitchens and Dawkins but he's got a lot of real great ideas; his work is more philosophical than most others. Anyways, he has an idea for religion which is just that; don't parents or politicians favor any of them and see which (if any) people gravitate towards and do the best to help them. A religion should be able to prove its worth without help or special privileges.
Unless of course the goal was to stop the flow from Iraq so that other interests get richer.
strange that you equate "quality of life improved" with the words "nuclear bomb"
For thoose who havent see the political break down on who votes D or R with respect to all religous lobbies. It is almost 50/50. One couldn't tell with our media reportage.
My buddy.
If our country goes, and it might, the whole world will also go, right back into the dark ages....with an oligarchy at the helm.
Read "Dreaming War, The Bush Cheaney Junta" and just the Prologue. You do not have to ready anything else, then look at the date and see just how correct he was. When people talk of THEIR politics it is all correct and set in stone, but when someone speaks of FACT It is forgotten. He is correct when he calls us the united states of amnesia. Because the majority of us do forget on monday what we were told on friday. We do not give a good goddamn about our politics! Now go watch american Idol!
If, as you say, we humans are sinful then we can claim to have faith for all the wrong reasons just like we can do good works for the wrong reasons. This is why I think they are inseparable. They validate each other. Without both together the motives for either is suspect.
david, people can protest the war. That's fine; that's protected speech. Somebody saying they are against religion = fine. BUT working toward the goal of eliminating free speech in a society whose main tenent is free speech should not be celebrated or considered a worthy goal. You can "say" you are against free speech but then to work toward removing it are two different things.
We (in America) do not live in a democracy. We live in a Republic. There is a difference. In certain situations the "move if you don't like it" makes sense; in others it does not. If you disagree with freedom of speech, of religion, of the right to pursue happiness, then yeah, one should leave.
I didn't call anyone a name. When I was young I was on the left. I understand you people, your altruistic concerns for others and so on. But I came to realize how deluded I was, and how foolishly idealistic I was. When I came to, I realized how right the right was. You might someday too.
Is there no one today like him today-but twice as visible and youthful as one like Noam Chomsky and the late Christopher Hitchens-who can correctly kick Trilateral Democratic ass and eco-idiots like Musk with flawless science and a full understanding of political and financial power?
I am non-religious and I have nothing against religion. I only get upset when policy makers try to create laws based on ancient religious texts. Laws should be created based on reason, rationalism, and the best of ones ability to interpret the Constitution. At least that is my opinion.
heres to the excelsior party !!
fine, we'll have anarchy.
2007... and we still are victims of magical thinking...which is the core of all religions from Christianity, Islam, Hinduism..and all the other "isms" that pester mankind with their incessant buzzing and biting.Emerson said "my mind is my church" and the sacrament is TRUTH...which has little to do with "belief"...which by the way comes from a root word that translates "in the place of experience".
Its interesting how some Christians have to let everyone know how much they think they know about Christianity
It's interesting how little some Christians know about Christianity.
I follow the moral teachings of the Gospel of the New Testiment. It is better than any Secular Constitution or any "Intellectual's" version of a "Manifesto" to engineer the human race as though we are all farm animals, and a certain select few who are exceptionally intellectual--such as yourself--should decide for us how the world should be constructed.
Am I against Abortion morally . But, I cannot tell someone what to do.
Minimum Wage? Oh my--
A living wage for everyone.
Advances Freedom.
Hail Eris
Even if we accept this argument that all you need to do is believe, I would say arguing against Christianity as a religion based on helping the sick and the poor in any context probably qualifies someone as holding pretty weak belief in Jesus because they would not see belief and good works as seperate things otherwise.
Quality of life improved greatly in Russia under their reigns, minus the executions. Stalin took them from the ploughshire to the nuclear bomb in 29 years.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
- Gandhi.
Well put! I wasn't aware he had said that. Astute observation.
Why shouldn't middle class America be fervent patriots? Does our country do wrong? Sure, I'll admit that, but our country allows for people of all races and creeds to live side-by-side in peace, which can't be said for most of the world.
OK, Here's where I am trying to say. If it is real faith that leads to good works then without those good works to follow. . it is not real faith is it? I can see the point that faith must come first but it seems to me that, if there is no value in good works without faith, then faith is also validated by the good works it inspires. There should be no argument that Christianity stands for all the good works that should come from that faith.
@hamnose
Con't:
Of course, none of that would ever actually happen because, as anyone can clearly see, that religion isn't kept around because of how it might help people. While I won't deny there are people who find solace in relgion, leaders/politicians and the clergy want it to further their own agendas.
You want to see a funny example of religion at its most comically inept? Read the third and forth post under this one (it starts "Bush dropped...").
Both parties have their crooked elements. I think Vidal has a niave view that if only the Democrats were in power everythng ok. At least that is the message I am getting from him. Someone correct me if I am wrong?
Long live communism and eugenics
@buddybleau Yup, I'm not trying to say creationism is correct because its the way were born, I'm saying it's wrong because it means creationsists haven't matured.
Religion is politics is about the most disgusting and troubling idea I can imagine.
Unitl their god shows up for a Senate vote they can't claim we have to do some political thing because "that's what god wants!"
@hamnose
It's typical fundie hypocrisy; he talks says Christians are all about love but if you read some of his other posts you would see he doesn't really seem to practice it too well.
As for Bush taking out Sadam, the ironic part of it, is how while Sadam was a pretty bad guy, taking him out made it so the Christians in Iraq were no longer protected by the realitive stability Sadam created and they are now being slaughtered by fundamental Muslims. US Christians mostly ignore this fact.
Also, I think Vidal is wrong in totally wrong in blaming Bush. American Citizens should take the blame for allowing government to become a our master not our servent.
(might have better spelling skills too.) totally joking your point seems valid.
Interesting.....applause all around , huh?
Yes, indeed. APPLAUSE!
I never said he works in mysterious ways. I said that God works by His own hand and at the same time He works through human beings. The whole reason I commented was that the interviewer believes social work for the poor to be the foundation of Christianity, which it is not. Belief in Jesus Christ is the foundation.
no.
@Karlzberg414 Sensible religious teaching? There is nothing sensible about religion. Good men do good things, bad men do bad things, but only with religion can you get good men to do bad things.
I have a lot of respect for this man, and I agree with many of his ideas, however, he is stereotyping the conservatives a little too much without giving deep justifications (just like the media do). Many interesting thoughts come from the conservatives and they are not ALL funded by corporate America. It's just a little too black and white just like political debates.
It's like he is speaking about the Trump presidency.
If you are against free speech, you should not live in a Republic or Democracy. The Republic or Democracy isn't oppressing the person who doesn't believe in freedom of speech, religion, etc, rather that person should leave because his/her beliefs run counter to the very heart of democratic thought. Do you even read what I type?
why not churches like the institution of the family, institution of religion, institution of education institution of politics and the institution of economics (the five Major institutions are made made- So they should be taxed- why not the institution of the family is taxed
He speaks of relevance, and important american political history. But, Sports, american Idol, and other irrelevant BROADCASTS gets more attention than that of relevance, so Ignorance is to be expected.
"so Ignorance is to be expected.
" == and that is exactly what is desired. 12/2018
I think the interviewer (Paul Jay) has more sense than Gore Vidal, who seems to dismiss religion out of hand. There are a lot of us religious folk who are greatly opposed to the national security state. Don't stereotype all of us based on what you've heard from nuts like Fred Phelps.
I think he knows that. He's speaking in broad terms.
The interviewer is rather strange in his understanding of Christianity. The "fundamental criteria" in which a person gains salvation is whether or not he or she believes in Christ. That's it. Anything more and then you have salvation by works.
You could find anything that anybody says presumptuous if you stretched it enough. But by that same token, you really think that the founding fathers envisioned a country whose government was basically legislating liberties left and right?
Their vision was primarily states rights and limiting the federal government, just read the bill of rights. For a man who wants expansive federalist government, I find it laughable that he invokes the founding fathers.
xHarry2112x, faith in Jesus Christ assumes that you believe He died for our sins, He rose from the dead, and that He is the Word that has been with and is God for all time. The church (Catholic or otherwise) is fallible; therefore, their errors don't necessarily lead to the conclusion that Christianity or religion is wrong or should be discarded
Well you seem to know everything: Who is the Left; who is a Moron/Hillbilly AND who he does not appeal to.
I am a true "repbulican" which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Republican Party. And this man's ideas are very appealing to me.
I keep my Christian faith personal. But that does not render me a Moron.
I dislike most politics in general; and HE dislikes both.
I admire this man.
The interviewer has no idea about Christianity. The fundamental criteria for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ, not helping the poor. Faith comes first; then good works (which stem from faith, but do not earn you a way into Heaven). Gore Vidal is full of *stuff* but at times he has a glimmer of commensense and is sometimes correct.
My belief in Jesus Christ has nothing to do with "innocents" dying from malaria. The existence of Jesus does not result in the death of innocents. It is up to us AND to the people of those countries to do something about the problem. God works on His own and through people; however, offering a helping hand IS NOT the foundation of Christianity, which is my original point.
Thats one interpretation of Christ's message which really came into existence about 1400 years after he died. You may believe that because of your denomination, but that doesn't make it 'true'.
that's a narrow-minded view. But, you are entitled to your view. I disagree-
Our Catholic Parish in France raises more money than the "great Charitibie Governmental Agencies" do with YOUR money-and you have no choice with the Government-
With Religious Organizations, it is voluntary.
I'll throw my hat into this pile: the two examples you provided are empirically-based: it is physically possible to prove that the planet is round. Same with the moon-cheese thing. And of course, everyone knows that the hobbits are fantasy - because one man wrote the novels that include them and he took credit for it.
Long story short: as soon as you can prove to me that the Christian God doesn't exist, I'll believe it.
I never said that ONLY belief in Jesus results in good works. Nontheistdavid, you aren't reading what I'm typing. I was speaking only from the perspective of Christianity, disagreeing with the interviewer's version of Christianity. Calm down, read my original post, and then message me. Calling me an a-hole does nothing to prove your point.
Not sure where this interviewer gets the idea that Christianity is measured first by adherent's concern for the economically poor. Jesus never once mentioned it. He did say "blessed are the poor in spirit." Of course, most people agree that concern for the economically poor is important, but the priority of Christianity is repentance from sin and humility before God (poor in spirit).
I dont like it when Jews try to explain Christanity. I understand your comment.
I dont like it when Jews try to explain Christianity to the audience. I know what you mean.
I find myself wondering what Mr. Vidal would be thinking about the current happenings. The modern neo fascist left is a phenomenon that I have a hard time wrapping my mind around (militaristic and Russophobic and McCarthyite) I doubt he would hate Trump...I am glad in a way that Vidal was spared all of this.
Shorewatcher, people like us know NOW so it is up to us to make things better. In my own opinion I do not think all is lost, but the road to improving things will be difficult. People like Vidal make good points, but he comes on like a cynical curmedgeon. Cyncism is not what is needed to improve things.
Funny how all you do is call people names without ever making a case as to why they are wrong. How about answering zube.
Your sentence does not make sense to me. Send me a message and we can argue this out then. I make a distinction between faith and good works because as humans we are sinful. How can we be sure that what we have done earns us a place in Heaven? We cannot. Therefore, faith and the mercy and grace of God saves us. And because one has faith in Jesus, they will do good works not to "earn" something but because of the goodness of their heart
Ariaane: "Repeating dribble you've read does not make you appear intelligent." That is the pot calling the kettle black. For instance, your pronouncement that Ghandi was a racist and a pervert who slept with young girls, is nothing but parroting the cynical version of a complex man and history. And as to your assertion that 100 million people have died by athiestic communism, I would just add that 100 of millions have also died througout history for religion, monarcy, and democracy, etc.
The power to tax is the power to destroy.
Gore Vidal is awesome. Sorry you haters can't see the truth.
I hate this Gore Vidal. He don't speak as well as my main man GW Bush. Now there's a deep thinker.
gore, please name me one person that is smarter than you. tee hee
Sorry about the name calling. But Gore Vidal is right America is doomed its in the bible silly.
From my experience and understanding it is only through faith that we are justified (saved). Works should come from faith. One should NOT do works to "earn" their way to heaven, for how could one know that the works they have done are sufficient? I suggest you re-read the Bible
The man is off on so many points
@buddybleau It is undoubtedly true that you can get good men to do bad things through religion, but ask yourself how you get bad men to do good things?
I see you are in the US which proves my point a little. Ever been to a Church of England or Church of Norway service for example? Sober, sane, sensible and perhaps a little dull. They can't say anything controversial because the churches are supported by taxpayers money.
This guy is insufferable