A Critical Look at the 1619 Project | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- 3:26 Critiquing the NYT’s series on American slavery, the 1619 Project
11:19 Why did this package come out now?
21:17 Are today’s racial disparities a “predictable” result of slavery?
27:31 The imaginary black man riding the subway who thinks “y’all gotta watch out for me”
39:40 The elided history of black shopping districts
47:48 Does this narrative dehumanize whites?
54:07 Is this whole argument a bluff?
Glenn Loury (Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs, Brown University) and John McWhorter (Columbia University, Lexicon Valley, The Atlantic)
Recorded September 4, 2019
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![The 1619 Project's Pulitzer | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Xym3kFuBX3Y/mqdefault.jpg)
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, these two need their own show.
Skeptical but open is this not their own show?
Anthony David no, a large group of individuals make up bloggingheads.tv. They needs their own channel. With a weekly video.
@@skepticalbutopen4620 My hunch is that they are both appearing exactly as much as they want to. Glenn pretty much does do a show a week when he has the time. I don't get the feeling that John wants to talk about race with Glenn for an hour each and every week. They are both busy with their academic careers and John is raising children.
They can call it “The John Glenn Show” to mess with people.
@Megalodon Unlocked That sounds nice, but they live kinda far apart.
I'm a "double-woke" white guy who just stumbled onto your show while seeking some context to understand the 1619 project. Thanks for enlightening me.
GOWDER2414 Try not to be overly paranoid. It’ll cause you to have a clear lack of judgment. 😁😘
Just dont double park in the hood cause you'de be woke no mo
Check out Gad Saad and Rubin to continue your enlightenment. :-)
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
@GOWDER2414
And the link I posted debunks the 1619 project. Try not to shoot from the hip.
There are numerous articles.
As for socialism being an appendage of white supremacy is nonsense.
Socialism stands for workers of the world unite.
Wao...I've been floored by this amazing conversation. What a pair of amazing intellectuals. Conversations like this gives me a lot of hope for America, despite the seemingly depleting fabric of our society.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
As an African-immagrant-American I have benefited a lot from these dialogues! It's like thatfeeling I got when first discovered Moby Dick or Sowell.
Gad Saad too, check him out.
Welcome to America! Make your dreams come true!
The transatlantic slave trade wouldn't have existed if there hadn't been dense slave trading networks in West Africa, connecting the continent's interior to the Muslim empires in the Maghreb and Near East and the pagan coastal states (viz. the Yoruba and Dahomey Empires). These networks were established centuries before Europe entered the slavery business and acquired the ability to project real power overseas. A narrative that leaves this pre-history of slavery out cannot lay any claim to objectivity and truth.
Lol the transatlantic slave trade wouldnt have happened if Europeans did crave slaves, in Europe and especially In the "new world"
LiquidSoul Obviously that’s true, but it doesn’t mean what Jude’s is saying isn’t true as well. I very much doubt they were simply try to replace one overly simplistic reductive history with a different one equally simplistic & reductive.
LiquidSoul It wasn’t so much about “craving slaves” so much as it was craving wealth, and slaves were a conduit to that wealth.
@@daffyduck4674 hmm except jude conveniently left out the very important point, the slavery in the "new world" that developed here was solely because of European greed. His seemingly attempt to excuse, or ignore European instituting chattel slavery in the "new world" is childish
Yikes! "We come in peace," and it's all downhill from there...
Glenn's laugh made me smile for the 1st time in days. Thank you.
He seems to be a nice man. His wife, whom I have seen briefly, is a good match for him.
I am so glad that these shows popped up on my feed one day. I am very centered politically, and agree both with John and Glenn. I want to say thank you for educating me. I started wtaching you both, not because I needed the OK to feel the way I feel, but to use your intelligent points to discuss with those who are willing to listen to the nuances of every "argument" that is taking place today. Moreover, it has also changed my mind on a lot of these issues. I wish more people would listen to each other. but not from their groupthink- which is what happens- but to those on the opposing view. Thank you so much! Also, if anyone has not read John's book 'Woke Racism" i highly suggest it. It changed, opened, and inspired my mind. God bless
Glenn and John are one of my favorite new media addictions - first-rate intellectual discourse!
I especially love it whenever Glenn says "really?!" because you know he's about to get SO fired up!
So here is a chilling thought: If someone is willing to short change reality to gain power, how far will they go to retain it?
@Timothy Somerville TDS. He lives in your head for free.
Look at examples like the Soviet Union, Maoist China, and many others and you can see where this all goes. It always ends the same way. Millions dead.
No one ever listens to the warnings because we always forget the lessons of history. That's why we are always on repeat.
This sort of thing is typical nationalist behavior. Like the Irish who tried to revive the Irish language after it had been dead as living language for several generations. but not for its own value but as a way of dissing the English. Didn’t work, whereas the Welsh language survives, as a valuable legacy of the country.
I feel the chill !
The answer is in front of your nose if you’re an American citizen.
I have just heard about the 1619 Project for the first time and have found it to be a shameful act of fueling racial divide. A friend pointed me to the 1776 Unites and I will be reading the essays and posts of all of its authors, many with whom I am familiar and hold deep respect. Glenn Loury was missing and so I had to go in search of his comments. This has been undoubtedly my favorite conversation between him and John McWhorter. I will move on to listen to the other discussions since this one.
I was so refreshed to hear John's salient assessment of the young man on the bus. I am a strong, loving, firm Mama. Personally, I have found that I see others as though they were my own kids, in some respects. This leads me to love them, have expectations of proper, decent, civil behavior, and that I cheer for their success and I'm heartbroken for their hurts and/or wrong paths. I have seen all of my children struggle with this issue of white guilt. I don't understand it as it's not how we raised them, but they are their struggles. My husband and I stay involved and interactive and supportive as they struggle to make their sense of these complicated issues that make up humanity. Thank you both, so much.
I’ve been a fan for a long time. First time commenting. Thank you for being willing to have these conversations, in public and sharing them.
WOW!!!! What a conversation... there's so much in here... Thank you, professors!
I've been trying to understand the purpose of the 1619 Project. As an older white woman thank you for helping me understand a little bit better. I thoroughly enjoyed your program and plan to listen to others in the future.
These guys should have 5 million views, 10 million views for each discussion.
I wish. People are accustomed to memes. This discussion is complicated.
If Glen released a music video where he sang about drugs, shooting & his “stable of prostitutes”, surrounded by half naked young black women twerking etc he would achieve “10 million views for each discussion”.
Should he “play the game”?
Why not?
Agreed!
Maybe they do. CZcams manipulates the views numbers.
CZcams quashes the organic spread of topics its soulless bureaucrats dislike, and promotes the hate-filled garbage that they prefer.
If you have any doubt of that, search for "white fragility" (no quotes) while not logged in (so your own recommendations don't influence it), and you will get two pages of exclusively pro-DiAngelo videos...despite the fact that even with this corrupt help they aren't getting many views.
And then make the effort to find the anti-DiAngelo videos. You'll see that, despite the corrupt suppression of being lowered in results, they get far more views. Which, in a fair system, would drive them to the top of the results.
Google is corrupt and dishonest, distorting views through its agenda in exactly the sort of way "the Russians" supposedly did in 2016.
Frankly, there is NOTHING wrong with Russia buying ad space for their own political posts. That is not actually "election interference".
But a social media company secretly showing more of their political side and less of the other IS election interference.
These men are undoubtedly educated far above my level. There is no doubt in my mind there will always be some type of evil in our world, however as they got closer to the end of this talk I found myself almost weeping. There ability to search for truth and the honesty with which they shared, reached a platform of which to be desired. I am so tired of each view being so slanted that any truth presented reeks of excrement. I would be a better person if I were more like you two. Thank you.
who wants to chip in to buy Glen a new camera?
I prefer a better mic first.
Sailorforlife BESTTI I’ve thought about sending him a microphone. I’ve got an extra usb mic I don’t use.
He spent all the money on books
@@matthewharvey3556 money well spent.
Lol
Glenn Loury is brilliant. He always makes me see things from perspectives I’ve never thought of.
real men know how to wear pink
Pink shirts were “in” in the 1950s.
I think the trick is getting a pink piece of clothing and putting it on.
Judy S. Hahahah ... Are you saying his fashion is antiquated? I have worn pink from time to time. But, I find that a plum color (maybe had one the same as Glenn’s) matches better with my complexion.
@James Gray i love it even more now.
1619 Project = “...low rent thinking disguised as higher wisdom” lol and just started listening. More fun and enlightening conversation between Glenn and John.
Blacks have a knack for saying things in an interesting war. Natural poets.
Judy S. Nice to know that you recognise that those “Blacks” have some artistic skills!!
Yours is the most racist comment so far! Please don’t think me a “troll” & ignore what I’m saying. I believe that the attitude displayed in your comment is extremely damaging at this time in history...
Is this the first time that you’ve heard balanced intellectual discussion on the subject of race? I do NOT mean one-sided, blinkered activists talking unchallenged...
Rhetoric & statistics can be blinding.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
Read Thomas Sowell's "The Real History of Slavery". The section on slavery in America and the process of it's abolition is eye opening.
13:45 - "Isn't it curious, slavery is commonplace in human history. What's unique, what's interesting, what's different, is the abolition of slavery." -Glenn Loury
I never looked at it that way. We still have a long way to go, but we can't just take these kinds of heroic feats for granted.
The best thing about Glenn and John is that they have read and understand what people they critique have written.
I call this 1619 phenomenon fashionable racism
@GOWDER2414 then try a dictionary, look up " fashionable" then look up "racisim"(pre recent change in definition) and youl figure it out, see not to hard to do for yourself.
Well, unfortunately TRUTH hurts & it just IS...
@@luvintolrn9665 but the 1619 project has some obvious gaping fallacies, so many that historians requested corrections to flagrant omissions and errors. So yes the truth is the truth, but if your given partial truths ,or important omissions that is a lie. and that's the problem with the 1619, it is bullshit. I mean factually its BS. IN 1619 that had not h ing to do with America, America didn't exist yet. If you have a problem with slaverybin 1619 bring it up with England, France and Portugal. as far as America, it was founded understanding that slavery was abhorrent, and had the structure built into the constitution to actually end slavery. It never said the country was perfect, in order to form a "MORE" perfect union, does not read in order to for "A perfect union". And as time has gone on, our western civilization has done more to obliterate slavery world wide then ANY other culture. America has legally achieved equality( actually, over equality, but that's another story).( your welcome!). looking at the modern day slavery map, you will see that slaverybis still prominent in the same cultures that it has historically started and continued, mainly the middle East, Asia and Africa.
www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/data/maps/#prevalence
@@SM-bu9bz ohh how the decadent jeweled veil is lovely..😂🤣🤔😞
@GOWDER2414 The decadent veil must be beautiful.......
An interesting anecdote about subway etiquette. I'm a man in my early 50's who uses a cane because of a back injury. Last year I was sitting on a folding seat in a middle subway car. I had my head down reading, when I felt something hit my head. I looked up an older lady had a cane in her hand. She said "excuse me." I said that's OK and went back to my reading. She hit me on the head again. I looked up realizing she was telling me she wanted me to get up. I thought about it for a second and decided to get up. That's when she saw my cane and became extremely apologetic, waving at me to sit down." She then pointed at a young woman sitting across from me as if to say "I'll hit her on the head and make her get up." Either that or she was suggesting I hit the woman myself. I insisted she sit down and leaned against the door until she got off the train and I could reclaim the seat. I had never seen much less experienced anything like that before. A week later I was sitting in the same spot and a much younger man with a cane did the same thing to me. This time I just held up my cane and said no. I don't sit in the middle section anymore. Those seats give me headaches...
Apparently some people just don't believe back injuries unless it's their own back.
Enjoyed the last sentence by the way. Great punch line. Better than a swat with a cane.
Hah!
This was a worthwhile watch. You are both American treasures. I look forward to hearing more from you both.
These are two of my favorite thinkers. I want to see more of these guys tackle current events and undercurrents.
Glenn & John, you never fail to cast light. Thank you.
Glenn, I am Irish American and thank you for the shout out. My ancestors were oppressed, murdered and "transported" by the English for nearly 1000 years. As you know, many of them were used as labor on American jobs considered too dangerous to risk valuable slave "assets."
John, Thomas Aquinas's intellectual descendants actively helped the English accomplish that oppression. Perhaps Ta-Nehisi Coates could help me develop an Irish reparations regime for London and Rome. We could get the new African Catholic Bishoprics to cover Rome's part of the cost.
Can’t dump that on Aquinas or Rome Our ancestors stayed Catholic for a good reason, which is that the English were Protestants. It was Elizabeth who funded the pirates including Ralegh and Drake when raided the Irish coasts as well as Spanish treasure fleets. She redubbed them Privateers, and thereby changed international law which had hitherto been regulated by the Pope.
Gosh awful history. As unfortunate as the Poles. Course they had glory days, too. Days to come, too.
“It’s weak to say that all Black problems stem from slavery” AND “We are supposed to evaluate Black people differently than we look at white people.” I totally agree. Disparities came from a myriad of influences as changes over time, including prejudices.
Not all black problems stem from slavery but a lot do. And many problems also stem from black businesses destroyed during Jim Crow, mass incarceration, school to prison pipeline, getting the father out of the house, and even bringing immigrants to undermine FBA's.
Low rent thinking fits perfectly with what I've heard from Ms Jones. Perfect!
Wonderful talk gentlemen, Thank You.
Would you all ever talk to Thomas Sowell or Walter E Williams?
let them enjoy their retirement.
Dr Sowell just released another book at 90 years old. He is still sharp as and on point.
After reading McWorter‘s first book „Loosing the Race“, I started YouTubing him and stumbled upon these two talking together. I’m addicted! Amazing intellect and insight. Everyone should be watching these two.
I teach high school English and appreciate John’s commentary on language so I can be a better teacher for my students. His podcast is awesome!
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
2 weeks til another one!! I certainly hope so! You guys are killing it, love the nuances and complexities you both bring forward. Keep up the great work
The fact that there are 2.8K Likes; and only 137 Dislikes -gives me hope. Wow-what an education I'm getting from these two. Bravo!
I love how both of you are so capable of taking both sides of the argument so easily. Sometimes I get the impression that John is the liberal and Glen the conservative, but you guys really explored this well.
Their positions may be better explained through their academic fields: one is a linguist, the other a mathematician/economist. Pure brilliance on both sides, though!
I'm listening to this in the middle of July 2020 ... When cities are drowning in BLM and antifa riots.
And the media is barely covering it.
About 45 days of riot/protests in Portland and MSM is silent. Glad the Federal Protective Service/DHS is standing up to these spoiled children!!!
Me, too. Saw these guys on Bret Weinstein's show and have been watching them.
@@williamcullen8756 Thank goodness for that roundtable! I didn't know about any of these amazing intellectuals and they've been saying all things I've been thinking…. ANDDD they're BLACK!!!
I've only had Eric, Brett and Sam Harris (Not that Glenn's opinion is more valid than theirs simply because of skin color, but the crazy zoomers and media make it seem like your opinion doesn't matter if you're white. So, how about the opinions of Glenn/John/Coleman/Kmele then, ya crazy PC police?!)
"drowning" poor little snowflake
I love listening to smart people having thoughtful conversations. Keep it up
The more intelligent and informed the black person, the less racist against whites.
As a middle school History teacher who teaches mostly Black kids, I get two responses from my kids when i talk about slavery. The dominant response seems to be "Why are we talking about slavery again? I'm tired of hearing about it." Then there's a surprise that the Africans were so critical to the trade.
Why would anyone want to hear about history that only sees them as victims . Its a depressing. Don't you agree?
I wish, I wish, I wish, everyone could see things this clearly.
yea...... but when folks constantly fear monger.... other ppl really can’t see things clearly..... False Evidence Appearing Real
Saying that the Civil War was uniformly fought to abolish slavery for moral reasons is as intellectually dishonest as any argument these two claim is in the 1619 Project.
I agree. The reasons were much more complex. In John's defense, I must say he only was able to nod, the other guy kept on talking after saying that.
@@mirrorneurongirl There are at least two myths going on here. There's the myth on the Southern end that says that the Civil War was about states rights when we have literal Southern leaders at that time saying it was about slavery. But there's also a myth on the Northern end that says that the war was primarily fought from the start because people thought slavery was wrong. Some actors did. But many did not. There are true abolitionists and then there are free soilers and others. Even Lincoln himself has a complicated record here but I do believe he was an exceptional statesman and evolved (with the help of Fred Doug).
Yes, Glenn, it's like being a musician (and particularly songwriters), where you're always trying to come up with things that push you just a bit further, and make your work a bit more interesting and revealing. I dig it... thanks for clarifying that, for those who seek the truth, and wish to further their skills, the work is never done. Of course that's what makes our fields of study, interesting. About the rest of the interview: bravo ! Glenn and John are always compelling to listen to. Their throught provoking analysis demands a focused listener's mind.
Powerful. This is exactly what we need right now to counter this nonsense - persistent, clear, intelligent speaking of the truth. Thanks Glenn and John!!
I grew up in a black neighborhood on the predominantly white side of town in the 80s and early 90s. The racial caste was American Blacks at the bottom and every other group on top, from Hispanic to Asian to Jewish to White-the latter being specifically on top and the groups in between are arbitrarily listed. A white girl could date any other group outside of hers, if she desired, and she would receive NO pushback with the exception of ONE: Black Americans; therefore, I have no idea why Glenn thinks we should be worried about what our fellow countrymen think.
Thank you for your clarity and intellectual honesty As a Brown alum, Glenn, you give me hope that didn’t come from the administration’s recent letter that you so aptly countered. I will have to listen to this session once again to fully understand all that you two put out. I especially liked John’s statement that history is a Progression statement, as we are still growing and clarifying this slavery matter. It ain’t over till it’s over in my mind. I will be expecting more of your cogent discussions. And, I wish that I had been able to experience one of your courses when I was there.
John App
I absolutely LOVE these brilliant, clear, provocative thinkers! And, I especially love when they discuss topics with each other. Individually, they are fantastic, too, or in interviews with others. Thanks to both.
I teach in an "urban" high school and I can attest to what John says about a complete lack of manners/etiquette
Yo. John McWhorter referring to random annoying black dudes on the subway as Daquan! LMAO! Lit!
I love listening to glen sing praises of America. Makes my heart bleed red white and blue 🇺🇸
I am watching this for the second time. I love those two much. I could listen to them all day long!!!! 🙏🏾❤️
I'd read a book of John McWhorter's "Subway Stories".
I was looking for perspectives on the 1619 project; full disclosure, I think it is a political, not the story of America. I found this conversation refreshing, not because I am white and needed affirmation on what I believe, I found it refreshing because it was honest and real. I am a white man who grew up in the hood, I was a minority in the projects of LA, I did pull myself out of the projects and probably have a perspective that someone of color or someone of non color can relate to. I get tired of all the politics and love hearing educated persons of color keeping it real, you have a new fan and if you ever want my perspective; just ask, I respect you and might surprise you.
Yeah but Trump wasn't polite about how he felt regarding *anyone* he disliked, including several white people. See, this is the whole problem with viewing everything through the lens of race or racism. It becomes impossible to recognize when there *is* fair (if otherwise wrong) treatment.
And of course, the Charlottesville thing was discredited a long time ago. Trump explicitly said the neo-Nazis and white supremacists should be condemned.
From 1619 to 1776 all slaves in the colonies were British and slavery was British policy and law. Slavery was British for a longer period than in the United States.
I've become a big fan of both of you in the last several months and look forward to more discussions from you two in the future. Thank you for being voices of reason in a sea of unreasonableness.
1:02:48 The utterly predictable Woke counterargument to Glenn's point here about the universality slavery is that slaves were not treated as chattel until the Transatlantic Slave Trade, but Orlando Patterson demolishes this myth in "Slavery and Social Death", and other historians have chronicled the chattel status of slaves in such far-flung locales as Kerala, Angkor, Mauritania, Yemen, Zanzibar, Transoxiana, Mindanao, Korea, etc.
An other try to undermine the winning system, against leftist utopias called communism, socialism and their thinking, from the once leading paper NT. How much hatred must they have against the winners, to pull out all these old rags and call this historical, although its just a tiny aspect of history, blown up for political and virtue signaling reasons. So the left wants to install 1619 as the founding moment of the US, an absurd and ideology driven twist of perspective and standpoint, with the only goal to tear it all down, so the winner and losers are rushed on the ground. Its so obvious, when leftists do something, their main motive is always envy and hatred of the successors, camouflaged by fake-compassion.
I believe in Mauritania the rates of slaves is @ 20% is of the chattel or familial type.
The racial animus and slave society vs. society with slaves: two things those who do history point out for the poor narrative retelling and revision of universal slave states all being equivalent. Sorry, but as much as you’d like to escape history, it’s not as simple as you’d like to make it.
GOWDER2414 I might not want to get bogged down in a 1940s account of race.
GOWDER2414 I say this because a ton of racists wrote and informed the history of the 30s and 40s. This is why WEB Dubois work on The Reconstruction was so transformative. Up until his work, it was thought that The Reconstruction was a failure of black people not being able to adequately take their place on the political and economic stage, and that was nothing more than racist narrative at work. So, unless those works from 1940 have anything important to add to the conversation that’s diametrically opposed to current thought, I’d rather not waste my time. I’m currently reading Francis Bacon’s collected works. It’s something that would keep us all thinking, of we really internalized them.
You guys are extremely intelligent, honest and brave. We need more people like you.
One factor that isn't even discussed in the 1619 Project regarding slaves:
Between one-half and two-thirds of European immigrants to the American colonies between the 1630s and American Revolution came under indentures.[2] However, while almost half the European immigrants to the Thirteen Colonies were indentured servants, at any one time they were outnumbered by workers who had never been indentured, or whose indenture had expired, and thus free wage labor was the more prevalent for Europeans in the colonies.[3] Indentured people were numerically important mostly in the region from Virginia north to New Jersey. Other colonies saw far fewer of them. The total number of European immigrants to all 13 colonies before 1775 was about 500,000; of these 55,000 were involuntary prisoners. Of the 450,000 or so European arrivals who came voluntarily, Tomlins estimates that 48% were indentured.[4] About 75% of these were under the age of 25. The age of adulthood for men was 24 years (not 21); those over 24 generally came on contracts lasting about 3 years.[5] Regarding the children who came, Gary Nash reports that "many of the servants were actually nephews, nieces, cousins and children of friends of emigrating Englishmen, who paid their passage in return for their labor once in America
Cover? That must be White Lefties or Center Lefties looking for cover under which to be able to criticize the "1619" project.. As a Conservo, it took me about a minute to see that the idea was way too simplistic. The examples of two ancient cultures we know deeply from vast scholarship - Ancient Rome and Ancient Classical Athens - show us this. Both had much longer, much deeper involvement with slavery, and slavery by no means was the one big thing that dictated how people thought and acted. Oy! Yet, it's not hard to see why they would pursue this idea. These NY Times folks are the same bunch who have already decided to go from their failed "Trump-Russia" conspiracy theory push, to an "America is Racist through-and-through" push.
Just want to say that I rarely comment publicly but just have to now: this is a fantastic conversation! Thank you guys
I absolutely love this thorough break-down of the "1619 Project." The feelings I had when I heard it was unsettling, but I thank you gentlemen for reassuring me I'm not crazy.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
Also articles exposing identity politics.
You guys are awesome. Thanks for your thoughts on this. At a bare minimum this discussion highlights the complexity of human behavior, motivation, and understanding and the risks of oversimplification.
I'm from the UK. I heard mention of this 1619 project on a CZcams news channel but didn't know what it was.
After getting a summary of what it was, it seemed obvious on the face of it that it could not be trusted as a historical piece of work - it seemed plain that someone had been trying to push a political agenda by using using facts or things that were nearly true to construct a narrative that they wished to push.
However, when looking for critiques of the 1619 project i found they too appeared to be pushing a narrative about the history of the USA.
I do get the impression that some American history is more myth and legend rather than true examination of the historical material.
Glenn and John. Its true, your balanced, nuanced and unideological views give cover to some right-wingers, I've seen such also with some comments. Truth can always be used from the honest and the ugly, but I think, there is no loop out unless you stop speaking, which would be a disaster, two honest truth seekers abandoning the open. If you see such comments, why don't you pick them out and speak about them and emphasize your genuine position to them. So you stay clean and the twisters get the answer that you are not on their sides. Don't stop speaking your mind, only because it could be abused. Tanks for your work, you two are important as speaker of honesty and reason in hysterical times.
Great point
11:19 Why now? Because 2020 is around the corner and we've got to keep racial resentment at a maximum to get out the vote. So how about we write endlessly about how awful slavery and the white folks were.
Timothy Somerville did you listen to the podcast?
@The One it's still alive and well in Mauritania, a couple hundred miles away from where I live.
Glenn/John - Thanks for your thoughts, as always. I have been reading a lot about Critical Theory/Critical Race Theory. Frankly, it scares the hell out of me... especially given its spread thru colleges, law, education,and journalism. Do you think that people have been influenced by that theory (whether they know it or not) and that influence is driving the creation of concepts like “whiteness” and projects like 1619?
@Rebecca Mattis - I agree. Furthermore, I am increasingly of the opinion that CRT is as dangerous to the world today as Marxism was a century ago. Of course, those ideologies are just derivations each other.
Bruce Wing: Actually, it begins before college...my child was indoctrinated with critical theory and CRT in high school. (This is a school where Ta-Nehisi Coates is worshipped and required reading). The debate team is proudly committed to critical theory and CRT as a team. Students adopt the doctrine on faith. They never see alternative perspectives like John, Glenn, Coleman, and so many other brilliant, thoughtful and scholarly minds.
What scholars have you been reading in that tradition?
Have you read the 1619 project?
If you have not, I encourage you to read it for yourself. The 1619 project will appear as a single mote against the mountainous pile of historical research that reveres the Founders, and all the typical narratives of American exceptionalism. It is a good thing to have other narratives.
@@StrategicWealthLLC America is a country where in 1931 hundreds of whites gathered outside a hospital, dragged out an unconscious black man, stabbed him with an ice pick and burned him alive. They then tore pieces of his body off as souvenirs. There are black people alive today who were children when this kind of thing would happen. There is something deeply unsettling about how America relates to those with black skin.
@Omar W - That was truly an awful thing that happened to Matthew Williams. Do you know how many blacks were hung in the 150 years since the Civil War? About 3,000. That is not black history. That is American history. Unbelievably cruel and stupid that stuff was.
Does that happen anymore? No, it doesn’t.
But there are nearly 17,000 American citizens murdered in the US every year. I don’t know what percentage are white, black, etc. Frankly, I don’t care. I simply want those murders stopped. Most Americans feel the same way.
I don’t want to diminish the horrible things that blacks have gone through in America’s history. At the same time, we have to put things in some kind of perspective. While a poor analogy, think about other historical events that have occurred since Matthew Williams’ murder. We had WWII, but today, we don’t hate the Japanese or Germans....despite their rape and murder of women, children, the attempted elimination of an entire race of people, and massive use of torture (by Japanese). We had Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq, too. Outside of concerns about Muslim extremism, we don’t hate the Vietnamese, Koreans, or Iraqis.
We also understand that children should not be held responsible for their fathers' sins.
I am not saying that there is no racism in America. I am saying that the overwhelming majority of Americans are not racist. It is wrong to forget the past, but it is also wrong to project the past onto the present.
The 1619 Project takes truths and writes them too large. It makes no reference to the fact...the FACT...that Benjamin Franklin led the largest abolitionist society in America. It makes no mention of the FACT that slavery was outlawed in the northern states by 1805. The federal government also outlawed the international slave trade in 1807. The 1619 Project makes no mention that the view of the role between federal authority and state authority prior to the Civil War was that the federal government could not stop existing states from legalizing slavery because of states rights. The federal government could halt slavery in new states, however....which is what it did (for the most part). There is no reference to the fact that black soldiers led Lincoln's casket as it was led through the center of Washington DC after Lincoln's assassination.... and whites that admitted liking Lincoln being killed were beaten by other whites. Jim Crow laws were state laws, not federal laws. Red lining was a state issue, not a federal issue. I am not saying that the federal government did nothing wrong (separation of troops by race in WWI and WWII).
At the same time, if everything is about power, the power dynamics between the races, and that races will do what they can to maintain their power as Critical Race Theory suggests, then explain: (1) why whites were advocating for the end of slavery 100 years before the Civil War, (2) why slavery was outlawed and blacks were made citizens under the US Constitution, and (3) why there were federal civil rights acts passed in the 1860s, 1950s, and 1960s...through legislation signed by white US representatives, senators, and presidents....and advocated for by white citizenry.
If everything is about racial power, then none of those things could have happened...because whites were the majority in America at the time. Yet, those things did happen...suggesting that race isn't the only thing that matters. People will respond to reason and justice...even if they may have to be hit over the head with it.
America's history with race is filled with nuance that the 1619 project does not even attempt to address.
There was slavery in the USA for 87 years, from 1776 to 1863, not 400 years like some say.In 1619 this land was English and Spanish and French, not the USA.
I was waiting for this and I haven't even watched it yet.
Thanks for doing these videos Glenn and John :)
I’m a big fan from Louisiana 🇺🇸
I could listen to these guys talk all night long
I don't live in a city with subways but i have observed John's anecdote. Where i live it is common for young black males to slowly cross the road, away from intersections, often diagonally and in a defiant manner with no other intention than to disrupt traffic.
It seems to be some kind of demonstration against everyday American life.
I always wonder: Why? What do you want? Who taught you to behave like this and why did they?
This is America, You are a free man in a free land and you have great opportunity. No one can deny you that.
If you don't take advantage of that, then some peasant from a truly terrible place will be happy to come here and take that which is right in front of your eyes.
The 1619 project sounds like Marxist revisionist history. Perhaps someone should do the 1919 project? You see, the true founding of Socialism was when the first camp for Political Prisoners was opened in the United Soviet Socialist Republics -- which eventually metastasized into the Gulag where millions of slaves were worked to death in concentration camps. This was called "Socialism in a hurry."
Or how about the 1939 project? This will ask the question: how come the National Socialist gave Nationalism a bad name, but not Socialism? I know: they weren't really socialist. But the ordinary people who helped put them in power thought they were Socialist.
I think we've embarked on the 2019 project: how do you tell a good socialist from a bad one? You put them in power and see how bad they screw things up.
Making up stories is bad for your health.
So technically it was British citizens who brought slaves. Many wrong thing happened before 1776. That is why we had a 1776. To correct the wrongs. And we did it.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head. I have three sons-in-law whom I love. All three are different ethnicities. I treat my black son-in-law with more deference. I recognize that I do, but for the life of me I do not know why. I do not love his wife (my daughter) any more or less than I love my other two daughters. I do not know if I should make a conscious effort to change or just roll with it. I do not want to pull back and make him feel as if he is diminished in my affections, nor do I want my other two sons-in-law to feel less accepted and treasured. I will admit that we have been a family for over five years, but this personal angst has been amplified this past year.
John was on fire. He spoke facts and laid out what I believe is the important takeaway of all race conversations and progressivism in 2019, which is that we are getting ever closer to hell from our path of good intentions.
28:20 I really like that Glenn characterized the western movement of Americans as "conquering" rather than stealing or genocide. Atrocities and massacres occurred and they came from both sides, but what happened to the Natives is no different from what the Europeans had done to each other before coming to the New World and Natives conquered each other for at least hundreds of years before any White man set foot on the continent. History is ugly, but to use these moralized descriptions for the totality of Native-European/American relations is not only simplistic but in many ways wrong.
I can’t believe Glenn is 71! He looks so much younger.
its because hes still using his mind , once you stop learning and thinking everyday thats when your mind and body start to age
Black don't crack.
Damn I’d give him 50-55 at most
Glad we AMERICANS have guys like Hughes coming up to replace him. Would love to have a conversation with either man. Not black, but crazy how much we look at things the same way.
He and his wife. They look like people in their early ‘60s.
Solipsism, postmodernism (a justification for intellectual solipsism), and emotional self-indulgence are a dangerous combination.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
But for those slaves that had newly found themselves in the America’s...say 10 years prior to the abolition of slavery, would they not want to go back? I don’t find Lincolns offer of return to be inherently racist, more of a olive branch to right a wrong. This casual proclamation by John McWhorter (and I’m a fan) is in bad faith. I’d be interested in hearing Fredrick Douglas’s view of the matter.
So Douglass was against the notion of Liberia as of 1849, arguing that while those held in bondage remained so would he. In fact even once freed, Douglass stated he had no intention to leave for a foreign land. utc.iath.virginia.edu/abolitn/abar03at.html
Well what of those, as I argue, who had newly been held in bondage and newly free...chose to leave. Still not necessarily racist. Unless we want to presume, along that same train of thought, that the creation of Israel by the League of Nations was an inherently racist act.
@@Stolat79 Sometimes I wonder why black Americans refuse to act to free the millions held in slavery, mainly in Africa, today in 2019...I guess slavery becomes more morally palatable when it is black people enslaving black people...Thats how slavery started and continues to this day...how is a pimp not a slave master? Or a heroin dealer? Truth dies for the benefit of narrative....
I believe he neutrally noted it as 'one option' in the discussion. Maybe how we heard it.
Kurban Said I do understand that the majority of slaves were native born at the time of emancipation, but as I said I do not find an offer to return those forcibly removed from their native lands “racist”. It is also the sad truth that many slaves did not have a grasp of where, geographically, they came from in Africa and had created their own culture in the time they had been away in the USA and that the majority of Freed men and women chose to stay in the country of their birth and not some foreign land an ocean away.
All I am arguing is that the offer, even if it is to a relative few, of being returned to Africa is not inherently racist. There were some who indeed did leave the US to form colonies in Liberia and Sierra Leone.
gutted fish I wonder often why the narrative of chattel slavery often does not go into depth of how and who was selling those slaves. The Turks enslaved far more Europeans during this same time period and are not held to the same level of contempt that the United States currently is. Christianity is has it feet held to the flames over numerous historical injustices that Islam is equally if not more sadistically guilty of. By focusing on Westerns history of slaves we negate the impact of the slavery on a global scale, after all it was the West and the Enlightenment that ended the practice.
And yes, slavery currently exists...and hardly a peep from anyone on the matter. 40 million people are actively being exploited and we prefer to gaze at our navels.
My family arrived in 1629 settled in salem area 12 generations ago. There are great records kept and many places with family name. There was slavery and it was the elite British ruling class. Many settlers didn't own and shunned slavery. Alot of settlers were indentured servants with no rites until debt was paid. Slavery was shunned in most colonies but England laws applied. Could go into more detail but wont. This has to be told and truthful. Most had no slaves but the pro england elite did use slavery but for there needs and Massachusetts was the most anti slavery state even before it was a state
Glenn, I've been around long enough and thought about it long enough that I don't need your cover. I'm capable of rational/logical thought. I'm just glad that I'm no longer teaching at the University. Keep up the good work.
Pontificating rubes.I've always loved the word solipsism because it's all about one point of view. You can only tell a story from the perspective that you know. I love how they didn't cover any of the history in the first 20 minutes which is when I turned it off. You guys are supposed to be College professors and don't understand that people come from a lot of different backgrounds. To build a documentary or book that is compelling, you have to lay a solid foundation and that's exactly what I found this project to be.If a student turned this in at the doctoral level I would think it's a very lightweight attempt but as a large picture overview I think it's brilliant.
Great conversation! This makes me feel a bit better about this whole Woke crap sweeping across universities. Thank goodness there are professors who are still this logical. Thank you, gentlemen! I'm going to look for more of these videos.
When I was in college in the 1950s, this is what liberal professors were like.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
Also articles exposing identity politics.
fantastic discussion...so glad i reserved the time to hear you both
26:06 Voldemorting Coates :P
Hah. I thought that's who they were talking about.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments and comprehensive analysis.
Hi Glenn, I appreciate your show. Please have Killer Mike on!
"That is the man with a hammer, to whom everything is a nail..." Beautiful.
As always, thank you for the thought provoking conversation ....
I really wish John would stop using this “killed for shoes” narrative.
Sure, it has happened, but it’s not the overwhelming reason black on black crime happens.
Other than that, they do make some solid points about the project.
To call slavery "unpaid labor" is only partially true. It obviously cost the slave owner to feed, clothe, and shelter the slaves. The question of slavery in the US is much more a moral one, with the moral yardstick being the ideas of 1776. The broader question would be: why have people enslaved one another throughout history, if it costs the owner? It is a spiritual problem, in which one man seeks power over another? Is it economic, in which it was cheaper to keep slaves rather than pay market wages? Is it status and convenience?
The reason you get paid in the summer is because a teacher applied for unemployment like seasonal workers like fishermen, so legislators made laws that schools would save 25% of every paycheck(and keep the interest) then pay teachers through the summer.
Our schools would be better served to keep this kind of spin out of our schools. Sowing the seeds of hate, racism and white shame helps no one.
Mr. Lowry, I'd love to have a conversation with you. I know that you are very busy and probably don't think I'd have much to say.
However I do have an interesting tale to tell.
I'm a 75 year old white woman who was brought up by a father who thought that Blacks were the best people in the world.
So. If you could send me a note to let me know you are interested in conversing I'll send you a message and give you my personal mind set and perhaps we could learn from each other.
I've studied a lot of Black history, etc.
First one here my favorite guys
Keep up the good work my brothers!
There was no United States until 1776. It is pointless to talk about slavery or any other activity in the United States before 1776. The territory that is now the United States was part of the United Kingdom.
Wow, amazing. The voices of intelligence, reason and tolerance. So unusual these days, and so very appreciated.
Plus the recognition that history and social problems are complex.
@@6aviotero Exactly, there is never one simple cause for social problems. Thinking that there is, is ideology, not reason.
@@jaynehunter6937 and it leads to injustice and war.
@39:40 "the people with the three names"! hahahahaha hahahahaha so observant!
In late August, 1619, around 30 enslaved Africans were brought to Virginia aboard the English privateer ship
White Lion. At Point Comfort, they were sold to Virginia Company officials in return for supplies. A few
days later, 2-3 additional enslaved Africans were traded by the ship Treasurer. They were the first recorded
Africans in mainland English America.
The enslaved Africans brought to Virginia in 1619 were probably from the Kingdom of Ndongo in West
Central Africa. They were Kimbundu-speaking people who shared a common cultural identity and brought
advanced agricultural and industrial knowledge. Between 1618 and 1620, Portuguese colonizers allied with
local Imbangala mercenaries to conquer Ndongo and enslave thousands of the kingdom’s inhabitants.
At Luanda, Angola, the slave ship San Juan Bautista departed with 350 enslaved captives from Ndongo. Its
destination was Vera Cruz, Mexico, but before it arrived it was attacked by the English privateer ships White
Lion and Treasurer. The English ships stole around 60 of the surviving Africans and sailed for Virginia.
In 1620, there were 32 Africans living in Virginia. However, by 1625, only around 25 Africans remained.
Most had arrived in 1619, but at least five Africans arrived on other ships, and two children were born to
African mothers. Virginia’s First Africans were probably enslaved for life, though a few eventually became
free. The arrival of these enslaved persons was a happenstance ,no one planned to deliver these enslaved persons with a view of starting an ongoing enterprise .
We tend to ignore the harshness of life in these colonies. My understanding is that most who arrived lasted on the average about 7 years. Took the British about 100 years to acclimatize.