Could not for the life of me figure out why past in flames wouldn't work if Lier did. Being a continuous effect so that it interacts with the casting legality check is so tricky! Great one, I always enjoy a 4 star.
I thought it was the verbiage of "gains" vs "has" wrt the Adventure cards not being Instants/Sorceries in the gy; that because they weren't the right type when Past in Flames resolves, they cannot gain Flashback, whereas Lier just blanket says "these card types in this zone have this keyword" so when the game checks if you can Flashback the Adventure card it can see Lier now applying to it. I guess it ends up being a distinction of no import, as it both results in the same situation, and deals w/how these "one-and-done" effects like from a spell or ETB must necessarily be templated to function vs the continuous effects that can be applied from a permanent.
@@beaudryc123 I- Yes? I was just explaining my initial rationale, and how I came to the same conclusion (so to why Lier works but Snapcaster/PiF doesn't) but for the wrong reason, and how continuous vs one-time effects plays into templating, and further how that templating gives direction to how the effects operate under the hood. I understand the reasons given, I just had focused on the wrong thing, gave my reasons for thinking that, to better explain why it works like that and help ward against similar confusion.
@Lanceweilder so it's not that, I must be a little lost in the pond on this one. What is the actual exact reason this works because I thought it was the reason you gave
It's because Past in Flames looks at all the instant/sorcery cards, and grants them flashback. Brazen Borrower is a creature, so it doesn't gain it. Petty Theft only exists while it's being cast. Lier's effect allows any card to be cast with flashback, as long as it's an instant or sorcery while being cast.
Past in flames is handing out tickets for an event. If you don't get a ticket, you aren't getting past the gate. Lier is opening the gates for an event. As long as you can get to the gate and qualify to enter, you can get in. Adventure cards don't qualify for a free ticket. But they can get to the gate.
@JasonOshinko The way I think about Petty Theft in this scenario is: - It is an instant (obviously) - It is a card (as when we cast an adventure spell, we treat the whole card to be the adventure) -> It is an instant card, and so has flashback.
@@JasonOshinko Flames checks whether or not it's an instant card while it's in your graveyard. (It's not.) Lier checks whether or not it's and instant card when you cast it. (When you're casting a spell, it's on the stack, and Petty Theft is an instant card while on the stack as Petty Theft.) It's definitely weird timing jank, and I got this one wrong before hearing the explanation, but it's weird timing jank thats required to make the game work.
@@JasonOshinkoPetty Theft is a card on the stack. When you cast the adventure side of a card, the spell on the stack _is_ the adventure spell. It has all characteristics of that spell, but the object is still a card because it is not a token and it is not a copy of a card.
Even being a judge myself, I was here ranting in my head what neatpicky stuff was behind the difference from Past in Flames and Lier, and I appreciated a lot that you clarified that in the end! :) Keep up the good work!
Definitely one of the more unintuitive interactions In the game. It feels like if Lier said something like *you can cast instant and sorcery cards from your graveyard using a flashback cost equal to their mana cost* then I would get it, but the difference in the comprehensive rules between the two effects just feels... arbitrary. I feel like with most rulings, even ones that deal heavily with the CR, you can come away with a better understanding of why things work the way they do. However, this feels more like WoTC saying "well it works this way because we say so, end of story" and it's a head scratcher. This isn't a hit against you Dave, thanks for the ruling ❤
I agree that it's counterintuitive, but I don't think your wording makes it any better. If Lier said you may cast instant and sorcery *spells* from your graveyard, then it wouldn't be a problem, but it says "instant and sorcery *cards*" and Petty Theft isn't a card.
@@JasonOshinko I was actually thinking about that after I left my comment. Still, semantics (that are admittedly relevant, but still) aside, my point remains, especially since the word "card" isn't what made the difference between Past in Flames and Lier
Past in flames gives every instant and sorcery in the graveyard flashback. Brazen borrower is considered a creature card when in the graveyard, and thus receives no flashback. Lier is different, as continuous effects are a bit wonky on a technical level. You declare that you want to cast petty theft from the graveyard, applying its characteristics to the brazen borrower card (that is, being an instant). Lier gives petty theft flashback and the game checks to see if you're allowed to cast the spell. Petty theft now has flashback, so all is well and it moves onto the stack (and when petty theft resolves, brazen borrower is sent to exile and its creature half can be cast from exile).
@@lawrencehu7654 mate, you don't need to re-explain the video, I did in fact watch it Edit: not that I want to come off as abrasive but just saying *it works because the CR says it does* implied that I either didn't watch the video or that I didn't understand it, either of which is insulting
Is there any way Past in Flames could have been alternatively worded where it would function with adventure cards this way? Like if it said, "Until end of turn, you may cast instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard as though they had flashback"?
Notice another difference with this new wording is that if an instant or sorcery ended up in your graveyard after you cast the altered Past in Flames you'd be able to cast it, which you can't with the real card.
Dave, this one was gold! Thanks for circling back and explaining why Past in Flames didn't work. And now I think I know why Snapcaster Mage doesn't work either; its effect is a triggered ETB instead of a continuous effect.
I got this wrong. Feels wrong though. It sounds like the idea is predicated on the idea that you can ATTEMPT to cast any spell for no reason. It sounds like we get to check and add the flashback after the fact, but it feels like a non-start kind of situation. We shouldn't be able to try to cast something unless it has flashback. "Continuous effects that would apply to that object once it has those characteristics are also considered" is such a strange rule in my opinion.
The fact that you don’t have to make the choice to pay an alternate cost (flashback) until after announcing that you are casting the spell and moving it onto the stack is what makes this make sense
I get that it's strange, but there are SO MANY cards that rely on this, a few examples are used in the video, but anything that lets you cast spells "as though they had flash" or alter the mana cost, or let you not pay the cost, and many other things just wouldn't be possible if it didn't work like this. There's also cases of continuous effect dependency like this that have nothing to do with casting. It's not "for no reason", the thing allowing it to be cast has to be public or derived information, or be spelled out on the card you're casting a zone you can look at. It can be tricky to spot however, and the game only checks if it's legal or not a single time, once it's already on the stack and costs and targets have been declared.
As a novice player, I would never have arrived at that conclusion. I would've guessed Adventure card -> Cast for instant/sorcery side -> Exile. Therefore, the player could not interact with the exiled adventure card due to some sort of graveyard shenanigans. I'll add it to the many things I have gotten wrong and learned as a result. Thanks for the video!
It actually does work that way too. Flashback and Adventure both have replacement effects for when the spell resolves, so the player controlling the spell chooses the order they apply. If you apply Flashback first, the card is exiled without Adventure letting the creature be cast, then the Adventure replacement fails to apply because the card isn't trying to go into the graveyard. So, let's try the other order. If you apply Adventure first, the card gets exiled, and you're allowed to cast the creature, then the Flashback replacement fails because it's already going to exile and Flashback only cares if it's going anywhere *except* exile. So it's a good idea to go in this order. Some abilities like Buyback would put the card in your hand or library or something, and those would get overriden by Flashback, because those zones aren't exile.
This took me a while to understand, but I think of it like this: If you cast Past in Flames, Past in Flames is the one who looks at the cards in your graveyard and therefore sees adventure cards as creatures by default. If you have Lier on field, you're the one who will look at the cards in your graveyard and choose to cast an adventure card as an instant/sorcery with, as mentioned, Lier giving you permission to cast it.
Kind of. It's more like this: If you cast Past in Flames, it looks at the card in your graveyard once, when it resolves, and gives flashback only to sorcery and instants. Adventure cards aren't either so aren't seen. Lier keeps looking at the graveyard all the time, so every time you want to cast an instant or sorcery from your graveyard he looks at it and allows you. A relevant difference is that if a sorcery or instant ends up in your graveyard after Past in Flames resolved it won't gain flashback.
In hindsight, there is a very minor clue as to why this interaction works with Lier and not with Past in Flames - the one difference in the wording of the two abilities is that Lier says "each instant and sorcery card has flashback" versus Past in Flames saying "each instant and sorcery card gains flashback". I don't know if there's a rules difference between "having" and "gaining" but that's definitely how I'll remember that's why these two continuous effects work differently. I play a deck with Kardur, Doomscourge in it and almost every time I play it someone asks "okay, if I play creatures after you play that, are the creatures still goaded?" I take it based on this ruling that they would be, because Kardur is a permanent. Please correct me if I've been playing this wrong.
I'm amused that you used the Tempest printing of Rolling Thunder and not the one that was actually in the same set as Void Winnower for the visual reference.
I understand the ruling but I still dont love it. The actual mechanics behind casting a spell are such a mess under the hood and so far from what most players think is happening. The fact that a card can get an agility that lets you cast it only after you have already started casting it is quite the paradox they have built.
I think it is legal to cast Petty Theft off of The Great Work. The oracle text states, in part "Until end of turn, you may cast instant and sorcery spells from any graveyard". Even though it is a creature in the yard, if you do cast it, it can become an instant. Not entirely sure, though.
@@AnonymousMaykr I'm not a certified judge, but this looks correct. "Until end of turn" indicates a continuous effect, the same type of effect Lier uses.
Thank you so much for this class. I think that's pretty comprehensible for what the sinergy between Lier and adventures really does, but can Lier interact the same way with Strixhaven MDFC's? Can I cast Deadly Vanity if Selfless Glyphweaver is on the graveyard, for example?
So, is there any way by which "Past in Flames" may be worded to allow casting Petty Theft the same way Lier does? I thought "Until end of turns, instants and sorcery card in your graveyard have flashback" would work (as opposed to "gain"), but that seems not to be the case?
That sort of wording would still choose a set of objects. You would have to word it something like "you may cast cards from your graveyard as though they had flashback." That way, it's giving the player permission to do something rather than giving a special ability to a specific set of objects
Thank you! What I take from this is that if you want to grant ability to all objects of a set that will change later, you instead need to grant that property to the player ("you may ... until end of turn" = "you gain the property of being able to cast ... until end of turn")
Ok so here's my question, does casting petty theft from the graveyard trigger murktide regent or desecrated tomb? as in, is it a instant card leaving the graveyard, or a creature card?
Im very confused. According to this ruling the game checks to see if you are allowed to cast the spell prior to the spell going on the stack. If this is the case, the interaction between Ixalan’s Binding and Squee the Immortal would have a different ruling.
Do you happen to know why that specific rule (CR 601.3e) exists? Is it just to enable this specific interaction, or what was its original purpose? I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, the wording is a doozy…
As far as I'm aware, yeah, that's basically it. WotC wanted an interaction (Garruk's Horde/Melek + Adventures) to work a certain way, and this is what fell out of it.
@@JudgingFtWwhy did they specifically want it to work that way? It shouldn't work that way. This is an extremely backward seeming rule. It should check all of that before it goes on the stack (not in a way that messes up the points you brought up in the video, with Steel Golem etc.)
While Petty Theft is in the graveyard the game checks if there is something preventing the card from being cast and on the stack the game checks if there is something that allowes Petty Theft to be cast. Nothing is preventing the Flashback in the first step and Lier grnats the Flashback dou to it's continious effect. Is that correct?
I very literally developed a headache upon hearing about this last week. I consider myself an extremely rules savvy person, and usually when someone mentions a real rules interaction I didn't know, I don't have to look it up to verify because I can intuit what I missed. I genuinely did not believe this could be correct and it took so much rereading discussions about it online (even the CR didn't feel terribly enlightening) before I understood, and I still hated it by the end. An extreme doozy, and I was hoping it'd come up on here so it'd have more visibility and (as much as is possible) clarity. I'd have made up a new 5 star rating for this its so insidious.
@@JudgingFtWthis ruling isa whole lot more twisted than your other four-star rated videos, in my opinion. I mean, just comparing it to the videos before this one with Virtue of Knowledge and Goddric, the rulings don't even seem to be in the same league as each other
If you only cast the instant side and the card is in exile (Adventure zone) how can you flashback? How can you exile a graveyard when they are flashing back from exile?
One more time a lot of stuff over here ! First of all I would like to thx you a lot for your videos, time you spent, and you're didactic way to explain rules, based on experience and knowledge. Really a great job !! You are just like a light bearer into the dark for me !! So I am focus on my commander (Dual Commander, French rules) #kess, dissident mage, judges around me (and I am really thankful for their help) are 90% agree with you, (proof, they sent me your video as referee 1 hr after your posted it) : I am able to cast adventure's instant/ritual spells from the grave. And then their going straight to the exile [dedicated to adventures] zone from where I can cast them as créature/enchant. Is that 100% correct ? And what about #underworld breach ? Many thanks for your help, It represents a lot for me as beginner, take care, David.
I don't agree with this ruling and I think it should be changed. I think there are a few issues with this based on the wording of Lier and the rules people are saying should apply. I don't think that Lier (and Return the Past) as it's worded should fall under 601.3e, as it's not looking at a card to see if it's characteristics allow it to be cast, but instead checking to see if Lier should grant it a keyword ability. Having the Flashback ability itself *is* the thing allowing the thing that determines whether the spell should be legal to cast (702.34a), not this odd dependency on Lier creating the opportunity. And saying that "granting flashback is just shorthand for Liee granting that casting permission" isn't right because Flashback as a keyword ability has mechanical significance and cards care about a card having the keyword "Flashback" (Runic Repition, Tombfire, Altar of the Lost). I feel that by granting the keyword ability, they are changing the source of that casting legality to be shifted from Lier to the flashback card. If the flashback ability were the thing creating the casting legality, then we can look back at the cards. Brazen Borrower in the gy isn't an intant or sorcery card, so it shouldn't gain the keyword ability flashback from Lier there. Additionally, 715.4 says "In every zone except the stack, and while on the stack not as an Adventure, an adventurer card has only its normal characteristics." Which means that by the time Petty Theft would have those characteristics where Lier could grant them Flashback, the card is not a card in the graveyard but a spell on the stack. If instead they intend for Lier to let you cast adventures, I would prefer she say that you may cast instant or sorcery *spells* from your gy and spell it out (The Great Work), or even use your example of Gandalf and say "may cast as insant and sorcery spells as though they had flashback." 601.3b-d already lay out stipulations in spellcasting for cards that can be cast as though they had flash, and I feel like that space could be opened up to include things like Flashback. All in all, I think this is an unintuitive situation that wasn't intended, and I'd rather they change Lier and other cards like her to not grant keyword abilities but to instead let you cast spells from your gy in a similar fashion.
Similar reason as Lier. Chandra references those cards. When you go to cast an adventure from among them, the game will see it as an instant/sorcerery and it's one of those cards. Therefore, it's a valid action
Chandra allows you to cast an "instant or sorcery spell" , which the adventure part of adventure cards certainly is. Even if it had said "instant or sorcery card", it would still work, similar to Lier
Question, since the spell gets exiled as apart of casting with flashback, would you still be able to cast the creature side if you flashbacked an adventure with Lier?
Basically, since it's going to exile, it doesn't make difference to the flashback ability which exile it's going to or what happens to it once it gets there
just to make sure I understand correctly, a card like niv-mizzet supreme, kess, dissident mage or maestros ascendancy would allow me to cast the adventures from my graveyard (paying any additional costs that may apply)? and I also wonder how spectral arcanist and sword of once and future work with adventures, can I use them to cast petty theft from brazen borrower? or can the sword not cast it since brazen borrower has a cmc of 3, or can they just not be used at all to cast adventures from the graveyard?
This might be a dumb follow-up question, but one thing that wasn't mentioned in the Adventures primer from a few days ago is if the Adventure is an "alternative cost" in the game's rules or a separate spell. Didn't think it mattered, but it now kinda does, so which cost could be applied to the Lier Flashback cost: the Petty Theft Adventure spell's cost (1U) or the Brazen Borrower's cost (1UU)?
@@JasonOshinko It's all in the CR, friend. Quoting from CR 715.3b: "While on the stack as an Adventure, the spell has only its alternative characteristics." Mana cost is a characteristic, so the mana cost of that object on the stack is 1{U}
Could not for the life of me figure out why past in flames wouldn't work if Lier did. Being a continuous effect so that it interacts with the casting legality check is so tricky! Great one, I always enjoy a 4 star.
I thought it was the verbiage of "gains" vs "has" wrt the Adventure cards not being Instants/Sorceries in the gy; that because they weren't the right type when Past in Flames resolves, they cannot gain Flashback, whereas Lier just blanket says "these card types in this zone have this keyword" so when the game checks if you can Flashback the Adventure card it can see Lier now applying to it.
I guess it ends up being a distinction of no import, as it both results in the same situation, and deals w/how these "one-and-done" effects like from a spell or ETB must necessarily be templated to function vs the continuous effects that can be applied from a permanent.
He explains it at the end
@@beaudryc123 I- Yes? I was just explaining my initial rationale, and how I came to the same conclusion (so to why Lier works but Snapcaster/PiF doesn't) but for the wrong reason, and how continuous vs one-time effects plays into templating, and further how that templating gives direction to how the effects operate under the hood. I understand the reasons given, I just had focused on the wrong thing, gave my reasons for thinking that, to better explain why it works like that and help ward against similar confusion.
@Lanceweilder so it's not that, I must be a little lost in the pond on this one. What is the actual exact reason this works because I thought it was the reason you gave
It's because Past in Flames looks at all the instant/sorcery cards, and grants them flashback. Brazen Borrower is a creature, so it doesn't gain it. Petty Theft only exists while it's being cast. Lier's effect allows any card to be cast with flashback, as long as it's an instant or sorcery while being cast.
Past in flames is handing out tickets for an event. If you don't get a ticket, you aren't getting past the gate.
Lier is opening the gates for an event. As long as you can get to the gate and qualify to enter, you can get in.
Adventure cards don't qualify for a free ticket. But they can get to the gate.
I still don't like this explanation. Lier says instant and sorcery cards qualify, but Petty Theft is not an instant or sorcery card.
@JasonOshinko The way I think about Petty Theft in this scenario is:
- It is an instant (obviously)
- It is a card (as when we cast an adventure spell, we treat the whole card to be the adventure)
-> It is an instant card, and so has flashback.
@@JasonOshinko
Flames checks whether or not it's an instant card while it's in your graveyard. (It's not.)
Lier checks whether or not it's and instant card when you cast it. (When you're casting a spell, it's on the stack, and Petty Theft is an instant card while on the stack as Petty Theft.)
It's definitely weird timing jank, and I got this one wrong before hearing the explanation, but it's weird timing jank thats required to make the game work.
@@thomaslunn6601 @fieldrequired283 Okay, but Lier says "card." Petty Theft is not a card.
@@JasonOshinkoPetty Theft is a card on the stack. When you cast the adventure side of a card, the spell on the stack _is_ the adventure spell. It has all characteristics of that spell, but the object is still a card because it is not a token and it is not a copy of a card.
Even being a judge myself, I was here ranting in my head what neatpicky stuff was behind the difference from Past in Flames and Lier, and I appreciated a lot that you clarified that in the end! :) Keep up the good work!
Definitely one of the more unintuitive interactions In the game.
It feels like if Lier said something like *you can cast instant and sorcery cards from your graveyard using a flashback cost equal to their mana cost* then I would get it, but the difference in the comprehensive rules between the two effects just feels... arbitrary.
I feel like with most rulings, even ones that deal heavily with the CR, you can come away with a better understanding of why things work the way they do. However, this feels more like WoTC saying "well it works this way because we say so, end of story" and it's a head scratcher.
This isn't a hit against you Dave, thanks for the ruling ❤
I agree that it's counterintuitive, but I don't think your wording makes it any better. If Lier said you may cast instant and sorcery *spells* from your graveyard, then it wouldn't be a problem, but it says "instant and sorcery *cards*" and Petty Theft isn't a card.
@@JasonOshinko I was actually thinking about that after I left my comment. Still, semantics (that are admittedly relevant, but still) aside, my point remains, especially since the word "card" isn't what made the difference between Past in Flames and Lier
Totally agree. Feels wrong.
Past in flames gives every instant and sorcery in the graveyard flashback. Brazen borrower is considered a creature card when in the graveyard, and thus receives no flashback. Lier is different, as continuous effects are a bit wonky on a technical level. You declare that you want to cast petty theft from the graveyard, applying its characteristics to the brazen borrower card (that is, being an instant). Lier gives petty theft flashback and the game checks to see if you're allowed to cast the spell. Petty theft now has flashback, so all is well and it moves onto the stack (and when petty theft resolves, brazen borrower is sent to exile and its creature half can be cast from exile).
@@lawrencehu7654 mate, you don't need to re-explain the video, I did in fact watch it
Edit: not that I want to come off as abrasive but just saying *it works because the CR says it does* implied that I either didn't watch the video or that I didn't understand it, either of which is insulting
Is there any way Past in Flames could have been alternatively worded where it would function with adventure cards this way? Like if it said, "Until end of turn, you may cast instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard as though they had flashback"?
I believe that wording should work.
Notice another difference with this new wording is that if an instant or sorcery ended up in your graveyard after you cast the altered Past in Flames you'd be able to cast it, which you can't with the real card.
Dave, this one was gold! Thanks for circling back and explaining why Past in Flames didn't work. And now I think I know why Snapcaster Mage doesn't work either; its effect is a triggered ETB instead of a continuous effect.
Snapcaster mage also requires a target, at which point it's not a valid instant target in the graveyard.
That was a tricky one. I did not get that one correct.
Thanks for clearing up how Past In Flames works differently.
Really cool. Consider myself to be decently knowledgeable about the game, but didn't knew all the details in this video. Thanks
This was a well put together and structured explanation of the mechanics that make this interaction work. Thank you.
Thank you for clarifying the Past In Flames difference. That one irked my brain until today.
I got this wrong. Feels wrong though. It sounds like the idea is predicated on the idea that you can ATTEMPT to cast any spell for no reason. It sounds like we get to check and add the flashback after the fact, but it feels like a non-start kind of situation. We shouldn't be able to try to cast something unless it has flashback. "Continuous effects that would apply to that object once it has those characteristics are also considered" is such a strange rule in my opinion.
The fact that you don’t have to make the choice to pay an alternate cost (flashback) until after announcing that you are casting the spell and moving it onto the stack is what makes this make sense
I get that it's strange, but there are SO MANY cards that rely on this, a few examples are used in the video, but anything that lets you cast spells "as though they had flash" or alter the mana cost, or let you not pay the cost, and many other things just wouldn't be possible if it didn't work like this. There's also cases of continuous effect dependency like this that have nothing to do with casting.
It's not "for no reason", the thing allowing it to be cast has to be public or derived information, or be spelled out on the card you're casting a zone you can look at. It can be tricky to spot however, and the game only checks if it's legal or not a single time, once it's already on the stack and costs and targets have been declared.
This will take a few watch throughs to wrap my head around
Great explanation
5:20 "I guess that pretty much wraps it up but there's ONE more thing"
Me: "PLEASE BE ABOUT PAST IN FLAMES"
This has been immensely helpful! Thank you!
As a novice player, I would never have arrived at that conclusion. I would've guessed Adventure card -> Cast for instant/sorcery side -> Exile. Therefore, the player could not interact with the exiled adventure card due to some sort of graveyard shenanigans. I'll add it to the many things I have gotten wrong and learned as a result. Thanks for the video!
It actually does work that way too. Flashback and Adventure both have replacement effects for when the spell resolves, so the player controlling the spell chooses the order they apply.
If you apply Flashback first, the card is exiled without Adventure letting the creature be cast, then the Adventure replacement fails to apply because the card isn't trying to go into the graveyard. So, let's try the other order.
If you apply Adventure first, the card gets exiled, and you're allowed to cast the creature, then the Flashback replacement fails because it's already going to exile and Flashback only cares if it's going anywhere *except* exile. So it's a good idea to go in this order.
Some abilities like Buyback would put the card in your hand or library or something, and those would get overriden by Flashback, because those zones aren't exile.
This took me a while to understand, but I think of it like this:
If you cast Past in Flames, Past in Flames is the one who looks at the cards in your graveyard and therefore sees adventure cards as creatures by default.
If you have Lier on field, you're the one who will look at the cards in your graveyard and choose to cast an adventure card as an instant/sorcery with, as mentioned, Lier giving you permission to cast it.
Kind of. It's more like this:
If you cast Past in Flames, it looks at the card in your graveyard once, when it resolves, and gives flashback only to sorcery and instants. Adventure cards aren't either so aren't seen.
Lier keeps looking at the graveyard all the time, so every time you want to cast an instant or sorcery from your graveyard he looks at it and allows you.
A relevant difference is that if a sorcery or instant ends up in your graveyard after Past in Flames resolved it won't gain flashback.
Thanks so much for explaining this so clearly!
In hindsight, there is a very minor clue as to why this interaction works with Lier and not with Past in Flames - the one difference in the wording of the two abilities is that Lier says "each instant and sorcery card has flashback" versus Past in Flames saying "each instant and sorcery card gains flashback".
I don't know if there's a rules difference between "having" and "gaining" but that's definitely how I'll remember that's why these two continuous effects work differently. I play a deck with Kardur, Doomscourge in it and almost every time I play it someone asks "okay, if I play creatures after you play that, are the creatures still goaded?" I take it based on this ruling that they would be, because Kardur is a permanent. Please correct me if I've been playing this wrong.
You are correct
It took me multiple viewings but I think I finally understand
I'm amused that you used the Tempest printing of Rolling Thunder and not the one that was actually in the same set as Void Winnower for the visual reference.
Great one! 😍
I told my friend this a few days ago and he nearly had an aneurysm 😂
Yeah as an exceptionally rules savvy person, hearing this works about a week ago literally gave me a headache.
Word bro. Sick. 👌
Great stuff as always, David!
I understand the ruling but I still dont love it. The actual mechanics behind casting a spell are such a mess under the hood and so far from what most players think is happening. The fact that a card can get an agility that lets you cast it only after you have already started casting it is quite the paradox they have built.
How does Brazen Borrower // Petty Thief work if there's a Urabrask // The Great work in chapter 3?
I think it is legal to cast Petty Theft off of The Great Work. The oracle text states, in part "Until end of turn, you may cast instant and sorcery spells from any graveyard". Even though it is a creature in the yard, if you do cast it, it can become an instant. Not entirely sure, though.
@@AnonymousMaykr I'm not a certified judge, but this looks correct. "Until end of turn" indicates a continuous effect, the same type of effect Lier uses.
Thank you so much for this class. I think that's pretty comprehensible for what the sinergy between Lier and adventures really does, but can Lier interact the same way with Strixhaven MDFC's? Can I cast Deadly Vanity if Selfless Glyphweaver is on the graveyard, for example?
I'm not a judge, but I don't see why not
Thank you very much :)
And no, it's not too deep! 😊
So, is there any way by which "Past in Flames" may be worded to allow casting Petty Theft the same way Lier does?
I thought "Until end of turns, instants and sorcery card in your graveyard have flashback" would work (as opposed to "gain"), but that seems not to be the case?
That sort of wording would still choose a set of objects. You would have to word it something like "you may cast cards from your graveyard as though they had flashback." That way, it's giving the player permission to do something rather than giving a special ability to a specific set of objects
Thank you! What I take from this is that if you want to grant ability to all objects of a set that will change later, you instead need to grant that property to the player ("you may ... until end of turn" = "you gain the property of being able to cast ... until end of turn")
Can we get an update on this for the new Tinybones, the Pickpocket targeting a Virtue or adventure creature in an opponent's graveyard?
Ok so here's my question, does casting petty theft from the graveyard trigger murktide regent or desecrated tomb? as in, is it a instant card leaving the graveyard, or a creature card?
I'm not a judge, but I'm pretty sure it counts as a creature card leaving your graveyard
Im very confused. According to this ruling the game checks to see if you are allowed to cast the spell prior to the spell going on the stack. If this is the case, the interaction between Ixalan’s Binding and Squee the Immortal would have a different ruling.
The difference between “gains” and “has” it looks
Such a cool interaction
Do you happen to know why that specific rule (CR 601.3e) exists? Is it just to enable this specific interaction, or what was its original purpose? I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, the wording is a doozy…
As far as I'm aware, yeah, that's basically it. WotC wanted an interaction (Garruk's Horde/Melek + Adventures) to work a certain way, and this is what fell out of it.
@@JudgingFtWwhy did they specifically want it to work that way? It shouldn't work that way. This is an extremely backward seeming rule. It should check all of that before it goes on the stack (not in a way that messes up the points you brought up in the video, with Steel Golem etc.)
Suggested this question a little time ago :) But I bet a bunch of people did
It was indeed highly requested.
I think the difference between Lier and PiF is very unintuitive and hard to explain at a FNM
I have to admit, I only knew this because someone pointed it out as a “fun fact” to me once.
While Petty Theft is in the graveyard the game checks if there is something preventing the card from being cast and on the stack the game checks if there is something that allowes Petty Theft to be cast. Nothing is preventing the Flashback in the first step and Lier grnats the Flashback dou to it's continious effect. Is that correct?
I'd like to ask for some clarification on whether you can cast either side of [[Fire/Ice]] using Niv-Mizzet, Supreme due to 400.7g.
If something said "Each Adventure card in your graveyard has flashback", would that let you cast them too?
Live and a comment, but I'm stil gonna watch the video.
thank you for this :D
I very literally developed a headache upon hearing about this last week. I consider myself an extremely rules savvy person, and usually when someone mentions a real rules interaction I didn't know, I don't have to look it up to verify because I can intuit what I missed.
I genuinely did not believe this could be correct and it took so much rereading discussions about it online (even the CR didn't feel terribly enlightening) before I understood, and I still hated it by the end.
An extreme doozy, and I was hoping it'd come up on here so it'd have more visibility and (as much as is possible) clarity. I'd have made up a new 5 star rating for this its so insidious.
I actually have a 5 star rating, but I've only used it twice. I try to save it for really extreme cases.
@@JudgingFtW Ha, fair enough. This woulda gotten there for me.
@@JudgingFtWthis ruling isa whole lot more twisted than your other four-star rated videos, in my opinion. I mean, just comparing it to the videos before this one with Virtue of Knowledge and Goddric, the rulings don't even seem to be in the same league as each other
How does Lurrus of the dream den interact with Mosswood Dreadknight & Dread Whispers?
If you only cast the instant side and the card is in exile (Adventure zone) how can you flashback? How can you exile a graveyard when they are flashing back from exile?
One more time a lot of stuff over here ! First of all I would like to thx you a lot for your videos, time you spent, and you're didactic way to explain rules, based on experience and knowledge. Really a great job !!
You are just like a light bearer into the dark for me !!
So I am focus on my commander (Dual Commander, French rules) #kess, dissident mage, judges around me (and I am really thankful for their help) are 90% agree with you, (proof, they sent me your video as referee 1 hr after your posted it) : I am able to cast adventure's instant/ritual spells from the grave. And then their going straight to the exile [dedicated to adventures] zone from where I can cast them as créature/enchant. Is that 100% correct ? And what about #underworld breach ? Many thanks for your help, It represents a lot for me as beginner, take care, David.
#Kess works as permanent effect and not #underworldbreach?
I'm pretty sure they would both work, as they are both continuous effects from permanents
I don't agree with this ruling and I think it should be changed. I think there are a few issues with this based on the wording of Lier and the rules people are saying should apply.
I don't think that Lier (and Return the Past) as it's worded should fall under 601.3e, as it's not looking at a card to see if it's characteristics allow it to be cast, but instead checking to see if Lier should grant it a keyword ability. Having the Flashback ability itself *is* the thing allowing the thing that determines whether the spell should be legal to cast (702.34a), not this odd dependency on Lier creating the opportunity. And saying that "granting flashback is just shorthand for Liee granting that casting permission" isn't right because Flashback as a keyword ability has mechanical significance and cards care about a card having the keyword "Flashback" (Runic Repition, Tombfire, Altar of the Lost). I feel that by granting the keyword ability, they are changing the source of that casting legality to be shifted from Lier to the flashback card.
If the flashback ability were the thing creating the casting legality, then we can look back at the cards. Brazen Borrower in the gy isn't an intant or sorcery card, so it shouldn't gain the keyword ability flashback from Lier there. Additionally, 715.4 says "In every zone except the stack, and while on the stack not as an Adventure, an adventurer card has only its normal characteristics." Which means that by the time Petty Theft would have those characteristics where Lier could grant them Flashback, the card is not a card in the graveyard but a spell on the stack.
If instead they intend for Lier to let you cast adventures, I would prefer she say that you may cast instant or sorcery *spells* from your gy and spell it out (The Great Work), or even use your example of Gandalf and say "may cast as insant and sorcery spells as though they had flashback." 601.3b-d already lay out stipulations in spellcasting for cards that can be cast as though they had flash, and I feel like that space could be opened up to include things like Flashback.
All in all, I think this is an unintuitive situation that wasn't intended, and I'd rather they change Lier and other cards like her to not grant keyword abilities but to instead let you cast spells from your gy in a similar fashion.
Why does Chandra, Hope's Beacon +1 loyalty ability let you cast the Adventure portion of a spell?
Similar reason as Lier. Chandra references those cards. When you go to cast an adventure from among them, the game will see it as an instant/sorcerery and it's one of those cards. Therefore, it's a valid action
@@apollotg1Chandra does not reference it as a card
Chandra allows you to cast an "instant or sorcery spell" , which the adventure part of adventure cards certainly is. Even if it had said "instant or sorcery card", it would still work, similar to Lier
A real Catch-22 rule
Question, since the spell gets exiled as apart of casting with flashback, would you still be able to cast the creature side if you flashbacked an adventure with Lier?
4:47
@total_dk6517 Ah, missed that part, thanks :
Basically, since it's going to exile, it doesn't make difference to the flashback ability which exile it's going to or what happens to it once it gets there
just to make sure I understand correctly, a card like niv-mizzet supreme, kess, dissident mage or maestros ascendancy would allow me to cast the adventures from my graveyard (paying any additional costs that may apply)?
and I also wonder how spectral arcanist and sword of once and future work with adventures, can I use them to cast petty theft from brazen borrower? or can the sword not cast it since brazen borrower has a cmc of 3, or can they just not be used at all to cast adventures from the graveyard?
Sword should work, as petty theft (or stomp or w/e) _is_ a sorcery or instant spell with mana value 2 or less, and you're casting it from your gy.
Nice, I guessed wrong
This might be a dumb follow-up question, but one thing that wasn't mentioned in the Adventures primer from a few days ago is if the Adventure is an "alternative cost" in the game's rules or a separate spell. Didn't think it mattered, but it now kinda does, so which cost could be applied to the Lier Flashback cost: the Petty Theft Adventure spell's cost (1U) or the Brazen Borrower's cost (1UU)?
Casting an Adventure is not an alternative cost (like discarding to Foil), but a whole different spell. See also CR 715.3
Okay, but still, which cost do you pay? How to you determine "that card's mana cost" when Petty Theft isn't a card?
@@JasonOshinko It's all in the CR, friend.
Quoting from CR 715.3b: "While on the stack as an Adventure, the spell has only its alternative characteristics."
Mana cost is a characteristic, so the mana cost of that object on the stack is 1{U}
Nice
not a fan of long explanations but I'm bad at pulling out
Ok... now how do I explain it to my pod? :D
Just send them a link to this video ;-)
I guess all this same reasoning applies to lier+ wandering archaic ??
You mean as a Modal Double-Faced Card? I'm pretty sure it would be the same
@@joedoe7572 yes mdfc with sorcery or instant only on the back side
@@allopeth I'm pretty sure that would work too
How do adventures work with conduit of worlds? Can you cast the adventure?
Yep, any time you can cast a card with no stipulations on card type it'll most likely work.
Lee-air, not liar lol
Can I cast the adventures from the commander Katilda and Lier’s ability
Same as with the Snapcaster Mage example, it is not a valid target due to CR 715.4
Great explanation.