The best advice I ever received was "find a Christian woman and grow in Christ together". Long story short, I was baptist, she was arminian. Today, we are both reformed and raising our kids in reformed/covenant theology. We are still growing in the grace of God.
At 56:46 , this is an experience my family had at a reformed Baptist church recently. (August 2023) we were one of maybe 15 or so families with small children, and the congregant asked for my child to be removed for being loud. I absolutely disagree, and within 1 or 2 minutes my son settled. At the end of the service the gentlemen brought up the issue again. Discussion progressed, then he said, “would you like me to bring this to the elders?” “Absolute.” I responded, having already talked with the elders about this possibility… The next week, the elders pulled me aside, we talked, and they sided with this gentlemen, that it was “reasonable “ for someone to ask for me to take my kids out of the service due to them being “disruptive”. I asked for scripture: for my kids being removed from the presence and teaching of Christ in the body of Christ, for the level of acceptable disruptive behavior, etc. received none. I pointed out the disciples rejecting children, no change.
My Church has kids in the service, but I understand that some group may have a preference that parents excuse themselves with little ones until the little one calms down. Not every gathering is the same and that's probably something we can have the freedom to choose on.
@@Sardiousyeah, I agree parents can make that choice depending on lots of factors. I disagree with people telling children they are not welcome to partake in the worship of God as part of the body of Christ. Telling them to go away from Christ essentially. It’s the same thing the apostles were scolded for. And it appears to me (having grown up Baptist until now ~38 years old) this is a mindset and culture common with baptists, and less common with the Presbyterians I have encountered.
If they really settled in 1 or 2 minutes, it's fine. If after another 5 five minutes this took place again, and then again, and then again, then yes, it is a problem. To be bothered by one small and quick disturbance is idiotic. To believe that there is no problem at all at continued disturbance is just as idiotic. While they were quick and unreasonable to point this out, it seems you don't really think you should respect the service moment with reverence and silence before God, both for yourself and for other believers.. Also, they are not part of the body, they are no more spiritually special than any other kid. It doesn't matter if they were born of believers or if they were baptized. So they are not part of the body, the body is only of people indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
18:20 In my experience, those who are thankful to God for who He is (rather than who they imagine He should be), are all kept together and united. People divide themselves when they love the darkness rather than the light... like Chesterton did.
@@CoranceLChandler James White has a history of cognitive bias in his historiography, which has been pointed out by several Church Historians. As a Historical Theology major I find it disheartening the degree White has exercised such blatant cognitive bias in Luther, Calvin, and other important Historical Church figures he has more discontinuity with the he likes. Maybe he's trying to reconcile his sentiments for the two with the fact that both would have, Right or Wrong, labeled him a radical and barred him from the Lord's Table 🙅♀
@@servusbellator8554 Seems to me you haven't listened to James recognising on *numerous* occasions that some of the same figures he talks about historically would have him killed, excommunicated or excluded from the faith. He's especially fond of mentioning the 'second baptism' Zwingli used when justifying the drowning of anabaptissts for example, or the imprisonment of Fritz Erbe in Vartberg castle which James alleges Luther must have known about while still considering him a Christian. The fact that you think he holds this glamorised view of these figures suggests a severe lack of engagement with any of his material.
To the conversation around minute 44:00 about the Christian dating scene. Is there a good answer for how to proceed in that? it seems that the church should step up even in minor ways - such as hosting singles game nights and/or other events that have a deliberate underlying intention that single people can meet to get to know each other, but without an overt pressure that they must go out together. This would help people a lot I think.
When I got here (Moscow) Pastor Doug asked me if I minded if he kept an eye out for a prospective wife for me. 😂 There seems to be a good deal of people wanting to see Christians find suitable mates out here
@@lewislibrewhat are you even implying? You realize that it’s completely normal for parents to try to guide their kids into adulthood right? It has been that way since the beginning of humanity. It is unhealthy and completely untraditional to be a young man with little to no interest in finding a wife.
27:32 All genuine Christians belong locally in one church together. To say that it's good to be allowed to preach at a church one would not be allowed to join, is an absolute no-go. Why should we be schismed (AKA heresied) in gathering? The Church has reformed back from the doctrine of reinventing the sacrament of submersion according to the traditions of men. We should not be delighted about this schismatism, but rather grieved.
The magisterial Reformed and the Westminster Divines were more concerned about their relationship with the Lutherans than the Anabaptists and English Particular Baptists they considered radicals and/or schismatics, yet there is little to no pursuit of catholicity with our Lutheran brethren. Now, post-1980s decided to redefine the historical theological meaning of “Reformed” to include Particular Baptists, and pursue closer relationship with the Particular Baptists leading to the majority of American Presbyterians to a lower Sacramentology. I wouldn’t have such an issue if the historically confessionally Reformed American denominations weren’t lowering their sacramentology. The magisterial Reformers and the Reformed Confessions didn’t view the sacraments, especially baptism, as Secondary Loci (a secondary issue). So, how does one set a path towards catholicity with Particular Baptists without compromising historical confessional Reformed sacramentology as much of the American Presbyterian churches have as well as my denomination the CREC?
I’m of the thinking that robust cooperation in things like missionary efforts, publishing and conferences are where they should cooperate. For the preserving of both sets of sacramental views (the Reformed Baptist one is actually even more undermined by this and at the moment) and good order in the congregation, I am convicted that normatively we should be in separate congregations.
@@alexbraham6259 I have unfortunately only seen compromise to the points of redefining historical theology terms and historical confessional Reformed theology thus far in regard to those interactions
As far as the Christian "dating scene" goes, does 1Cor 7:27 really apply to so few people? Just because it says, "But if you do marry, you have not sinned" Doesn't necessarily mean we should completely disregard the idea of "if you are not married, do not seek to be married" There's something there
1 Timothy 4:1-5: "1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
@@erickinho1BRA who is saying someone is forbidden to marry? I'm only asking if it's absolutely impossible for that particular wisdom to apply to someone today. I took a test for school about an hour ago and one of the questions was "Which of the following are effective tools of communication" One of the joke answers was C. Write your point out in all capital letters You failed that question The correct answer was making a distinction between hearing and listening
As far as I'm aware, Rigney seems to be some kind of conflicted. I'm attending New Saint Andrews, and although Doctor Longshore is my theology professor, the things I've heard from the Rigney students make me believe that he may not be Credo for much longer, assuming he hasn't already flipped.
Stay with the one you are married to, showing the love of Christ in the way you give yourself for them. If they are content to stay with you, you must not divorce. If *they* leave you *because of your faith* than you are free to marry whomever you will, as long as their a Christian (and of the opposite sex, because that's a thing we need to qualify these days :(
Really??? The world falling apart (as has continued to happen since 2020, including being on the brink of nuclear war) and the nearly complete abandonment of genuine Christian faith in the west (it is complete for all practical purposes in Europe and the US is well on its way) convinced you that post-millennialism is the correct view??? Interesting!
24:18 I see your bug bear and raise you another: I’ve never avowed modalism… Would you want me to disavow it if I was hanging out with, leading a church alongside and doing ministry with a bunch of guys that opine about the beauty of modalism??
would you all try to get along with korean or chinese churches? i think that's something that you all need to be exposed to. you all speak with some underlying assumption that all christians share very similar worldviews on church / caesar / community. but it will probably benefit your circle to see how other ethnic churches deal with matters. peace be with u all and happy to be contacted.
My experience lately is that the Baptists (while keen to fight) are brittle and angry, calling anything CREC #markandavoid. It's sad and entertaining, all at the same time.
19:04 "Control of the dictionary" should maybe begin with refusing to refer to murder by that disgusting euphemism "abortion". White is over at Apologia Church, where they have a ministry which is not called "End Murder Now". I hope James has advised them that control of the dictionary is one of the "big main issues", and I hope the name change is already in the works. Ending a process is not a sin or a crime. Murder is both a sin and a crime. I get disappointed when those who talk a big game are the same ones not even taking their own advice. Actions speak louder than words. If James wants to advise Christians to take control of the dictionary, then James needs to act in a way which conveys that message. Giving murderers the dictionary by calling oneselves "End Abortion Now", is a losing tactic, point blank.
🤣🤣🤣 I’m a 50 year old reformed baptist who has moved to a different state or country 10 times, visiting many reformed baptist churches along the way to find the best fit at each new location and I’ve never ever come across a single baptist church that wouldn’t baptize anyone younger than 18. What a stupid, extreme example. This shows how little Presbyterians understand baptist theology and more specifically reformed baptist theology. I can’t even roll my eyes hard enough at such a stupid example given 3/4 through this video. Dear Presbyterians, CREC or other, please educate yourself before saying stupid things about “baptists.” I’ve seen/heard similarly stupid/ignorant things about reformed baptists for so many years now. It’s really getting old. You guys lump us in with the worst of the worst baptists while reformed baptists are generally gracious towards Presbyterians and don’t lump conservative Presbyterians in with their wayward liberal and woke Presbyterians. The divisions between conservative Presbyterians and conservative reformed baptists are largely because of the arrogance and (ironically) ignorance of said Presbyterians.
I've seen some of this too (not necessarily here, just in general). They tend to act like the only options are growing up not really knowing if you're saved and the church won't baptise you until you're an adult just to be really sure, or you grow up presbyterian and have total security. But I attended a baptist church (not even a reformed one) that baptised anyone who showed a credible profession of faith. A lot of children were bapised there, and being insecure about your salcation just wasn't a thing.
Reformed Baptist here. There are plenty of Reformed Baptist churches that won’t baptize anyone under 18. They exist and in ever increasing number. Also James White is a Reformed Baptist
Moscow guys wrote the playbook for in-fighting. They’re cool with Baptists, but their unforgivable sins are not supporting Israel enough and baptismal regeneration.
Well, speaking from history, Calvinists not only threw Anabaptists under the ice for refusing to accept infant baptism, but Calvinists frequently fought each other, condoned slavery in the South and also burned witches in Salem. I’d love for Doug to take us down memory lane for the real history of Calvinism, but he’s too busy flaunting his exquisite library of books he’s read. He doesn’t have time for the truth.
Always love when Dr White is on
The best advice I ever received was "find a Christian woman and grow in Christ together". Long story short, I was baptist, she was arminian. Today, we are both reformed and raising our kids in reformed/covenant theology. We are still growing in the grace of God.
Excellent conversation with great & Godly men!
I love James White
Well, I love the trinity
That thumbnail on the video is crazy 😂😂
Happy thanksgiving brothers!
Amazing, seeing these guys talk and discuss. Great point about spanking not only for behavior but also for feelings..., have to think about that.
When was that? What time marker?
@@andyfonseca3618 14 minutes
At 56:46 , this is an experience my family had at a reformed Baptist church recently. (August 2023) we were one of maybe 15 or so families with small children, and the congregant asked for my child to be removed for being loud. I absolutely disagree, and within 1 or 2 minutes my son settled. At the end of the service the gentlemen brought up the issue again. Discussion progressed, then he said, “would you like me to bring this to the elders?”
“Absolute.” I responded, having already talked with the elders about this possibility… The next week, the elders pulled me aside, we talked, and they sided with this gentlemen, that it was “reasonable “ for someone to ask for me to take my kids out of the service due to them being “disruptive”. I asked for scripture: for my kids being removed from the presence and teaching of Christ in the body of Christ, for the level of acceptable disruptive behavior, etc. received none. I pointed out the disciples rejecting children, no change.
My Church has kids in the service, but I understand that some group may have a preference that parents excuse themselves with little ones until the little one calms down. Not every gathering is the same and that's probably something we can have the freedom to choose on.
@@Sardiousyeah, I agree parents can make that choice depending on lots of factors. I disagree with people telling children they are not welcome to partake in the worship of God as part of the body of Christ. Telling them to go away from Christ essentially. It’s the same thing the apostles were scolded for. And it appears to me (having grown up Baptist until now ~38 years old) this is a mindset and culture common with baptists, and less common with the Presbyterians I have encountered.
If they really settled in 1 or 2 minutes, it's fine. If after another 5 five minutes this took place again, and then again, and then again, then yes, it is a problem.
To be bothered by one small and quick disturbance is idiotic. To believe that there is no problem at all at continued disturbance is just as idiotic. While they were quick and unreasonable to point this out, it seems you don't really think you should respect the service moment with reverence and silence before God, both for yourself and for other believers..
Also, they are not part of the body, they are no more spiritually special than any other kid. It doesn't matter if they were born of believers or if they were baptized. So they are not part of the body, the body is only of people indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
18:20 In my experience, those who are thankful to God for who He is (rather than who they imagine He should be), are all kept together and united. People divide themselves when they love the darkness rather than the light... like Chesterton did.
Hey, I know this guy
@@TheCynicogue He knows you too. GTSY bro.
@@TheCynicogue I was just double checking how to spell your channel name, for the title for Monday. Silver platter then. Thanks.
Reformed Baptist here who married an at-the-time Presbyterian. My solution: lead a Bible study on Hebrews and invite her to it 😏
If Pastor James is done up like the Indian, does that mean you’re conceding that the Baptist history goes back further?😂
I guess if one wants to ignore the consensus of historical theology scholarship to buy into White’s anachronism….
@@servusbellator8554wut?
@@CoranceLChandler
James White has a history of cognitive bias in his historiography, which has been pointed out by several Church Historians.
As a Historical Theology major I find it disheartening the degree White has exercised such blatant cognitive bias in Luther, Calvin, and other important Historical Church figures he has more discontinuity with the he likes.
Maybe he's trying to reconcile his sentiments for the two with the fact that both would have, Right or Wrong, labeled him a radical and barred him from the Lord's Table 🙅♀
@@servusbellator8554 Seems to me you haven't listened to James recognising on *numerous* occasions that some of the same figures he talks about historically would have him killed, excommunicated or excluded from the faith. He's especially fond of mentioning the 'second baptism' Zwingli used when justifying the drowning of anabaptissts for example, or the imprisonment of Fritz Erbe in Vartberg castle which James alleges Luther must have known about while still considering him a Christian. The fact that you think he holds this glamorised view of these figures suggests a severe lack of engagement with any of his material.
Well, it does LOL
To the conversation around minute 44:00 about the Christian dating scene. Is there a good answer for how to proceed in that? it seems that the church should step up even in minor ways - such as hosting singles game nights and/or other events that have a deliberate underlying intention that single people can meet to get to know each other, but without an overt pressure that they must go out together. This would help people a lot I think.
When I got here (Moscow) Pastor Doug asked me if I minded if he kept an eye out for a prospective wife for me. 😂
There seems to be a good deal of people wanting to see Christians find suitable mates out here
@@jacobmaier8993 But in a meaningful way?
Boomers need to stop putting pressure on their kids we aren’t living in the 1980’s anymore
@@lewislibrewhat are you even implying? You realize that it’s completely normal for parents to try to guide their kids into adulthood right? It has been that way since the beginning of humanity. It is unhealthy and completely untraditional to be a young man with little to no interest in finding a wife.
Could we term this phenomena as:
Church fragility.
Yes- and you can view it firsthand in this comment section lol
PcRT at 10th Presbyterian Church Philly. Do you guys have things like that out west?
I didn't know brother White was in Arizona
At about 50 minutes in, I realized that this video wasn't actually about pilgrims and indians. Not sure what I feel about that.
27:32 All genuine Christians belong locally in one church together. To say that it's good to be allowed to preach at a church one would not be allowed to join, is an absolute no-go. Why should we be schismed (AKA heresied) in gathering? The Church has reformed back from the doctrine of reinventing the sacrament of submersion according to the traditions of men. We should not be delighted about this schismatism, but rather grieved.
That was 7 years ago? Wow.
What was?
🤦🏼♂️
@@tracycroll4325 The blk kid White talked about. Seven years passed so fast.
@@tracycroll432510:00 roughly
How you gunna do White like that Doug?
Yes.
Just not at a dance or a bar.
People objected to the idea that spanking a 3yo until they’re as pleased to see you as you’d like is anything other than cruel and ineffective.
Major metro centers.
It is a literal zoo minus the cages.
No thank you.
Point out the ethnic background of the current mass shoplifters and watch who they criminalize
DOUG WILSON
You did a video with
Steve Turley recently.
He lost weight --- a large amount. Steve could tell you how he did it.
😂
The magisterial Reformed and the Westminster Divines were more concerned about their relationship with the Lutherans than the Anabaptists and English Particular Baptists they considered radicals and/or schismatics, yet there is little to no pursuit of catholicity with our Lutheran brethren.
Now, post-1980s decided to redefine the historical theological meaning of “Reformed” to include Particular Baptists, and pursue closer relationship with the Particular Baptists leading to the majority of American Presbyterians to a lower Sacramentology.
I wouldn’t have such an issue if the historically confessionally Reformed American denominations weren’t lowering their sacramentology.
The magisterial Reformers and the Reformed Confessions didn’t view the sacraments, especially baptism, as Secondary Loci (a secondary issue).
So, how does one set a path towards catholicity with Particular Baptists without compromising historical confessional Reformed sacramentology as much of the American Presbyterian churches have as well as my denomination the CREC?
I’m of the thinking that robust cooperation in things like missionary efforts, publishing and conferences are where they should cooperate. For the preserving of both sets of sacramental views (the Reformed Baptist one is actually even more undermined by this and at the moment) and good order in the congregation, I am convicted that normatively we should be in separate congregations.
@@alexbraham6259
I have unfortunately only seen compromise to the points of redefining historical theology terms and historical confessional Reformed theology thus far in regard to those interactions
Cthulhu only swims left.
Comment for algorithm.
As far as the Christian "dating scene" goes, does 1Cor 7:27 really apply to so few people?
Just because it says, "But if you do marry, you have not sinned"
Doesn't necessarily mean we should completely disregard the idea of "if you are not married, do not seek to be married"
There's something there
1 Timothy 4:1-5: "1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
@@erickinho1BRA who is saying someone is forbidden to marry? I'm only asking if it's absolutely impossible for that particular wisdom to apply to someone today.
I took a test for school about an hour ago and one of the questions was
"Which of the following are effective tools of communication"
One of the joke answers was
C. Write your point out in all capital letters
You failed that question
The correct answer was making a distinction between hearing and listening
@@roguecalvinistI used capital letters because I didn't realize CZcams comments allow :)
@@erickinho1BRA you didn't realize that CZcams comments allow you to make the distinction between hearing someone and listening to them
it doesn't! I tried to use italics before the smiley face and youtube filters it out lol
Is Joe Rigney still credobaptist? He motioned to James White as Baptist and the others as Presbyterian but didn’t really count himself
As far as I'm aware, Rigney seems to be some kind of conflicted. I'm attending New Saint Andrews, and although Doctor Longshore is my theology professor, the things I've heard from the Rigney students make me believe that he may not be Credo for much longer, assuming he hasn't already flipped.
@@justusdittemore1813 thanks; blessings on your studies and time there, I hope it is a really good experience.
I'm a little jealous as I forswore due to AFIB Glenmorangie - Single Malt Scotch 10 Year Highland $41.99 I Drink Kosher
What if you are drawn to Christ and are married to an Atheist? You lads have it easy!
Stay with the one you are married to, showing the love of Christ in the way you give yourself for them. If they are content to stay with you, you must not divorce. If *they* leave you *because of your faith* than you are free to marry whomever you will, as long as their a Christian (and of the opposite sex, because that's a thing we need to qualify these days :(
Covid made me more post mill than any Bible verse ever did.
Current events are not a good reason to choose your eschatology.
😂
Backward theology 😂
Really??? The world falling apart (as has continued to happen since 2020, including being on the brink of nuclear war) and the nearly complete abandonment of genuine Christian faith in the west (it is complete for all practical purposes in Europe and the US is well on its way) convinced you that post-millennialism is the correct view??? Interesting!
And Doug became a paedo-Baptist because he wanted to believe he’d been given a promise Christ never made.
24:18 I see your bug bear and raise you another:
I’ve never avowed modalism…
Would you want me to disavow it if I was hanging out with, leading a church alongside and doing ministry with a bunch of guys that opine about the beauty of modalism??
would you all try to get along with korean or chinese churches? i think that's something that you all need to be exposed to. you all speak with some underlying assumption that all christians share very similar worldviews on church / caesar / community. but it will probably benefit your circle to see how other ethnic churches deal with matters. peace be with u all and happy to be contacted.
My experience lately is that the Baptists (while keen to fight) are brittle and angry, calling anything CREC #markandavoid. It's sad and entertaining, all at the same time.
19:04 "Control of the dictionary" should maybe begin with refusing to refer to murder by that disgusting euphemism "abortion". White is over at Apologia Church, where they have a ministry which is not called "End Murder Now". I hope James has advised them that control of the dictionary is one of the "big main issues", and I hope the name change is already in the works.
Ending a process is not a sin or a crime. Murder is both a sin and a crime.
I get disappointed when those who talk a big game are the same ones not even taking their own advice. Actions speak louder than words. If James wants to advise Christians to take control of the dictionary, then James needs to act in a way which conveys that message.
Giving murderers the dictionary by calling oneselves "End Abortion Now", is a losing tactic, point blank.
🤣🤣🤣 I’m a 50 year old reformed baptist who has moved to a different state or country 10 times, visiting many reformed baptist churches along the way to find the best fit at each new location and I’ve never ever come across a single baptist church that wouldn’t baptize anyone younger than 18. What a stupid, extreme example. This shows how little Presbyterians understand baptist theology and more specifically reformed baptist theology. I can’t even roll my eyes hard enough at such a stupid example given 3/4 through this video. Dear Presbyterians, CREC or other, please educate yourself before saying stupid things about “baptists.” I’ve seen/heard similarly stupid/ignorant things about reformed baptists for so many years now. It’s really getting old. You guys lump us in with the worst of the worst baptists while reformed baptists are generally gracious towards Presbyterians and don’t lump conservative Presbyterians in with their wayward liberal and woke Presbyterians. The divisions between conservative Presbyterians and conservative reformed baptists are largely because of the arrogance and (ironically) ignorance of said Presbyterians.
Presbyterians are good at lumping things together, such as lumping unbelievers in with the new covenant 😂
James white is a reformed baptist lol. Not saying they’re right I’m just saying it’s not just presby’s here
I've seen some of this too (not necessarily here, just in general). They tend to act like the only options are growing up not really knowing if you're saved and the church won't baptise you until you're an adult just to be really sure, or you grow up presbyterian and have total security. But I attended a baptist church (not even a reformed one) that baptised anyone who showed a credible profession of faith. A lot of children were bapised there, and being insecure about your salcation just wasn't a thing.
Reformed Baptist here. There are plenty of Reformed Baptist churches that won’t baptize anyone under 18. They exist and in ever increasing number. Also James White is a Reformed Baptist
@@michaelstarling6361?? Care to elaborate?
Moscow guys wrote the playbook for in-fighting. They’re cool with Baptists, but their unforgivable sins are not supporting Israel enough and baptismal regeneration.
And not being nearly theonomic enough.
Supporting Israel? Which one, the real one or the one created by ZOG
Well, speaking from history, Calvinists not only threw Anabaptists under the ice for refusing to accept infant baptism, but Calvinists frequently fought each other, condoned slavery in the South and also burned witches in Salem.
I’d love for Doug to take us down memory lane for the real history of Calvinism, but he’s too busy flaunting his exquisite library of books he’s read. He doesn’t have time for the truth.