Why free units are a BAD IDEA in most RTS games - Grubby
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- Today we're exploring the idea of "free units" in RTS games, and what it actually means, taking examples from Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2, and reacting to Frost Giant Studios' thoughts on that concept, and how they want to implement it in their upcoming title Stormgate.
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00:00 Intro
02:15 What is Stormgate's Infest Mechanic
05:35 Starcraft 2's Free Units Concept
13:14 Warcraft 3's Free Units Concept
19:11 Kevin "monk" Dong's View on Stormgate's Infest
25:58 My Finals Thoughts on Free Units
#GrubbyTalks #React #Thoughts #Starcraft #Warcraft #Stormgate #FreeUnits - Zábava
I think we all know that Stormgate's third race is Catgirls.
You joke, but I would be all down for this lmao
Khajit has units, if you have the pop...
@@TheSweetSpirit they should make this just so the game burns to the ground faster, its gona be glorious end to their grift
@@JackMarcuson so angry
@@JackMarcuson Or it will make it better.
I mean, the standard thing for making a cool thing on a t1 unit that is toxic in early game is to tie it to an upgrade you get later on
The scouts creeping ability is tied to the biokentics lab, so yah obviously the gaunts creeping upgrade should be tied to the tier 1 tech structure
He got so triggered by Zerg, he should have just picked up Terran, there is a reason all pro korean players at the top play them.
@@DrangusKahn Switching main race is not an easy thing. If it were that easy you'd see way more players switch to zerg in long stretches of LotV. To put in perspective, it takes almost 2 years for most pros to return to old form once coming back from military. That's playing the same race. Can you imagine spending 3+ years trying to pick up a new race on 0 income and no guaranteed success and almost certainty that a race that looks strong today will not be the same when you can finally play it at pro level.
Literally such an easy solution, yeah. Imagine if zergling speed wasn't an upgrade and zerglings were just that fast by default lmao.
@@Nuvizzle Easy to imagine as stimpack was a thing since release.
Something to consider: If you make the investment of 50 minerals into a Marine, it can, from that point onwards, attack indefinitely for free. The damage the Marine deals is just as "free" in terms of resources as that of the Swarm Host. So being able to deal damage for free after an initial investment is not unique to a unit that spawns more units.
Now, these two units obviously aren't similar. Because any unit the Marine attacks will usually be able to hit it back, which is not the case for the Swarm Host. The problem with the Swarm Host is that of range, of being able to hit the enemy without being hit back. If Locusts couldn't move further than 2 range away from the Swarm Host, it wouldn't matter if it spawned 6 free Locusts at a time, you'd be able to kill it much easier. If the Stalker had an attack range of 30, it would be a game-breaking unit because it would be able to hit you without you being able to hit it back.
The Broodlord is also a unit with unusually long range and the Infestor doesn't need to be present either for its spawned units to deal damage. The Raven auto turret rarely comes up in these discussions even though the turret is just as free as the Infested Terran, because the Raven needs to put itself in danger to deploy it and because the turret is much more avoidable.
What makes damage "free" is whether or not the enemy can hit you back. This is why the Swarm Host and the Broodlord, both still in Starcraft 2 spawning free units, aren't still dominating the meta like they used to, because the question of whether or not the enemy has the tools to hit you back is meta-dependent. The free-ness of their spawned units has not changed.
So standard ranged units are free so long as you have a melee wall to protect them?
@@ianrastoski3346 Kinda. Don't think about units, think about damage. Locusts are how the Swarm Host deals damage, the reason it's "free" is not because Locusts have a health bar but because the Swarm Host doesn't have to put itself into danger to deal its damage.
If you have a Marine attacking a Zealot from high ground with no way for the Zealot to reach the Marine, that is also free damage.
If you have ranged units behind tanky melee units, the damage you deal will likely not be free, but it will likely be a good trade. That's a pretty basic principle that we've all applied a million times in games, nothing new here.
On the other hand, as I mentioned in the original comment, if the Swarm Host had to go into melee range to spawn Locusts, would it still be able to deal free damage?
@@BaneHydraI think the bigger point about Swarm Hosts is, while Marines technically do free damage as long as they stay alive, Swarm Hosts also generate free health on top of it. You can achieve this with marines too, but you must invest into medivacs, which is both a ressource and tech invest.
@@brabhamF1 If you wanna count healing as free health, then all Zerg units do that passively. If you wanna talk about in-battle effects, the Immortal can generate 100 free HP every 32 seconds.
I see your point but I disagree, the biggest point with the Swarm Host continues to be its effective range. The Immortal's free HP does not translate to free damage because it can only deal damage from a range of 6, while the Swarm Host can damage enemies from much, much further away.
Makes sense. The more general insight then would be that the cost required has to be more than just an opportunity cost for the player using the free unit but rather increased vulnerability the opponent can exploit. WC3 dispels (insta loss of units you were hoping to retain) + XPs (stronger opponent heroes) would fit the bill, as does the point about swarmhost / broodlord range. Siege tanks have a long range, but they’re so vulnerable in siege mode they can cost you dearly if you lose an engagement.
Funnily enough, this was a huge problem in 7th ed Warhammer 40k, where these fancy army lists called Formations (or Detachments depending on who you ask) would give you special rules that would often be simplified to "If you have X units in this formation, get Y unit/upgrades for free"
Cue Space Marine players taking 2 demi-companies just to get free transports to then spam Las/Plas Razorbacks, Chaos spamming demons who could then spam more demons etc. etc.
Free anything is usually good enough simply BECAUSE it's free.
Also applies to magic the gathering. Free cards (often called "Cheerios") are kind of a problem since if you have a card that lets you draw a card whenever you cast one lets you draw your whole deck
but in those cases it's not truly free till you combo, the cost is just different.
a 0 mana card costs a card, or a cantrip (card that draws a card) costs mana or some other resource (life/sac a creature.)
in the case of formations, it seems like the cost is a building cost "if your army uses this then you get this." (though it wasn't balanced properly apparently.)
but the issue isn't necessaily a "free stuff" issue.
for example in magic you can have a 4 mana 4/3 with no effect or a 4 mana 4/4 that flies and gives mana, you can argue that the extra life and effect are "free"
@@satibel So a bit of clarification on 40k or just tabletop war games in general but players agree to a point limit, kind of like how card games have an upper limit to the amount of cards in a deck. Say 2000 for each player. What made formations so powerful was that yes, you were locked into to particular units to get the benefit of the formation, often you would get anywhere from 25% additional points in either gear or units or some insane versions like the demons where you could potentially get 50% more points then your opponent. This was the last time the game would ever allow something so obviously broken, but in this regard there was no good reason not to do this as there was no meaningful opportunity cost. You just got to have more stuff to throw at your fellow player and there was no counter play to it.
It helps to note that Games Workshop, the owner of the game, is a plastic miniatures manufacturer, and produces games that require plastic miniatures. So naturally there was some overlap in incentives for writing rules like that.
@@mrbigglezworth42 yeah but my point is that not all 100 point units have equal power, so if you need 10 100 point units that are actually on an 80 point power level to get a 100-200 point unit, it can actually be balanced, because someone else could use the 80 point units directly and get the 200 point unit "for free".
yes in that case it wasn't balanced, because the cost was too low for the reward, but that's often the case with some individual cards/units or combos too.
@@satibel Specifically I'm refering to cards that are zero mana AND draw a card. Those "don't cost a card" at all
one problem noone talks about is that in wc3 almost all the "free units" are tied to heroes, which is a very important limitation. If you could summon 15 water eles at the same time, water eles would also be problematic even with xp and dispel, but in wc3 you cannot mass a single summoner unit apart from necros which are garbage tier units(luckily). In sc2 you can make as many swarm hosts, broodlords or infestors as you want. Wc3 had so many limitations that made free units not opressive and sc2 literally didn't adopt or even just consider any of them. And so far it seems stormgate also doesn't.
I personally think that free units cannot be good for the game if they are tied to normal spammable units, they are either too opressive(like SH back then, BL) or too weak(necros, SH now).Stormgate and many of the new rts have top bars, perhaps you can put free unit summons on the top bar, I think that could work
yeah as a current sc2 player, i think that that BL and SH are pretty weak nowadays, and i'd want it to stay that way, because strong massable summoners are a bane of an rts. Just watching heart of the swarm pvz vods makes me want to never pick up an rts again lol.
@@michaellevin1400 yeah watching that 3 hour long firecake vs mana replay I think was something else... I can't belive that the devs just looked at that and were like "yep nothings wrong here, no need to change anything" for I don't know how long.
Well, the swarm host puts it in an interesting context; you will undulate between a very strong state and a very weak state during CD, that's an interesting mechanic actually, that can be played around and countered. A spike of power that isn't reflected in permanent army as they are temporary summons, and then you have to deal with the asymmetry of that when they despawn/die. At that point you have a clear, but abstract, investment, the hosts themselves cost money and at the CD phase they are just Ming vases that you have to take care of. I think there's a great takeaway there.
That is EXACTLY what happened in Warcraft 1. Games turned into a race into who could amass more mages/warlocks to send waves of summoned free uber units (demon/water elemental).
Another thing that WC3 smartly did was make most free units extremely weak so they mostly functioned as meatshields rather than an actual primary fighting force. The few exceptions like rank 3 Water Elementals or ultimate summons were impossible to mass by being tied to extremely limited heroes.
In contrast, most of SC2's free units are or were weirdly powerful, even the weakest ones regarding their function. Even broodlings have been shown to be powerful enough to cause several nerfs. This is because a lot of summoned units are of similar power to or exceed the power of cheap paid units, while in contrast most of WC3's mass summonable free units were substantially weaker than even the weakest, cheapest paid unit.
And that is why I (as a Zerg player) proposed that the swarm host(SH) should be changed.
Possible changes are (either or, not all at once):
a) To have a leash range where locust die if they go beyond it
b) Locust cost minerals or energy (making the SH susceptible to EMP or Feedback), they don't have timed life and make them a ground attacking flyer (basically a ground carrier with a max number of 3 Locust per SH?)
c) Redesign the SH into a stationary (but not burrowed, rooted like in the campaign) single target high damage anti ground and air unit spawning "scourge" like projectiles (that do not deal splash) much like the scourge nest from HotS campaign (but one by one)
Edit: If anyone from the moding community is willing to spend some time on the possible redesign options for the SH and/or the Broodlord changes listed in the replies that would be awesome to see those proposed changes in action :D
The broodlord imo should be closer in design to the swarm guardian. The broodlings are its defining feature but their duration and tankyness has been nerfed to make it somewhat less oppressive.
Other idea is to remove the broodling all together except the attack animation and give the broodlord a DOT in line to the average broodling dmg which would prevent siege tanks from attacking each other yet still make it a powerful siege long range unit.
So you wanna add cost to an already low value unit? You want the 5% of games where you see SH to go to 0% of games
@@raphaelantoine7331 In the "locust cost money/energy" change the locust are instantly available and have no timed life exactly like the carriers interceptors. Any lost locust cost minerals/energy to remake with a lower build time than the current spawn locust. Also all locust that are not killed return to the SH. Basically a walking bee-hive.
Also the SH is in a small amount of games because it was nerfed pretty hard. It costs a lot, takes up a lot of supply and can only attack every 40-ish seconds. The aim of the changes i proposed is to make it viable to use but also not busted by making an unending amount of free units. That is why the other 2 changes IMO are also there, locust costing minerals/energy isn't the only option.
I think it will make the unit very boring. Carriers work in their own way, their units are linked to the carrier
@@raphaelantoine7331 And with this change (really any of them) the locust would be linked to the HS. Making them a unit that could be in a comp instead of pure harass unit.
I think another reason 'Free Units/Summons' are fine in WC3 and not in SC2 is cause in WC3 EVERY race not only has at least 1 built in option to get them, but also has access to the same pool of Mercs/Merc Heroes. In SC2 on the other hand, not only did only 1 of the 3 races have the option to get free units, they also had 3 DIFFERENT options compared to every other races none. Free units are much more balanced when everyone has access to them in some form rather than just 1 faction.
Haven't watched the video yet, but I do want to say that there is a pretty obvious reason that 'free units', if done right, don't have to be 'bad'. So for example, think of a sniper unit, like tempests in SC2. Having a huge range advantage lets you get 'free' damage in before actually fighting or anything. There really isn't any significant difference between the two concepts. The important thing on units that can do something for 'free', like doing damage from a safe distance away, or spawning 'free' units, is BALENCE. Tempests are pretty slow, expensive, and relatively vulnerable at close range - it's a trade-off. Likewise we usually see similar tradeoffs for 'free units', like giving them temporary lifespans to limit the capacity of their damage. Make them come from some sort of vulnerable spawner. Make them have expensive costs that could make you vulnerable if they're attacked by an opponent who's spending their resources more efficiently. (Like think of it like buying a 'free unit spawner', maybe it costs 400 and spawns units worth something like 50 every 6 seconds or whatever. - it'll take you a while to make your money back in value, but eventually it'd be worth while, especially if you don't have to think about stuff like supply.) ^^ Most of these types of thoughts apply to all other units, too. Snipers like tempests are pretty weak in a head-to-head fight. You need to get that 'free' damage done repeatedly to make them worth while. Or you could look at the other end of the spectrum, mobile units like the reaper. They don't fight well like a marine, but they're mobile and can pick and choose their fights, so they can get free damage so long as you don't accidentally take a bad fight. My perspective: 'free-units' are no different from any other unit - they're only good or bad based on how they're implemented and balanced.
I think the problem with swarm host is that in theory they have the limitation of not being able to hit air and are slow and very vulnerable once they shoot their shot, the problem is that the synergy they have with nydus worms makes them really hard to catch in practice
Cosmonarchy has proven that you literally just need to make them really, really weak to be fine. Such a mind-blowing concept I know, who knew making a free unit's quality be equivalent to their price is a good solution.
I believe the most interesting is between ground vs ground. Just because its easiest to understand, easiest to read and control.
Air units tend to clump and overlap with grounds, they tend to go faster and it generally clunkier to control along side ground.
Air vs Ground is definitely interesting, but air usually has the advantage when you start to include cliffsides, height restrictions etc.
Grubby is spot on with his analysis with free units.
SC2 units are completely free after the unit purchase. They are paid in cooldown/attack speed.
Some main issues are:
- Free units are generally STRONGER than baseline units (broodlings, locusts, infested terrans can take on a marine, or just about kill it)
- Free units were general more NUMEROUS, allowing for surrounds, which destroys most units.
- Free units generally could be spawned from more RANGE, and had too high LIFE TIME. which allowed them to chase units for far further than youd expect
- Locusts and broodlords are spawned from the air, giving them even more usability, which can abuse angles and cliffs.
- Free unit spawners APM investment is very low compared to the APM cost of the defender
But generally speaking, there is no cost to the user and a high cost to defend. The units are also too strong/beefy. They are expendable, but they dont have the stats of an expendable unit.
The only drawback for free unit spawners is that they are USUALLY very vulnerable while on cooldown, and they have very high initial cost and take up lots of population cap.
One of the important things you mentioned is free units in SC2 are spawned from the air meaning you need AA units to shoot them down or you'll have to fight them on the ground where you are at a huge disadvantage from the tactical and economic stand point.
In Red Alert 3 for example, free units are airborne and can attack from the air which on paper should make them even more dangerous than SC2 free units but that doesn't guarantee a win because there are so many dedicated AA units that'll make mince meat out of the free units forcing the spawners to coordinate with other units to break the stalemate otherwise all you are doing is feeding enemies AA units free veterancy.
One design I love comes from a niche brood war mod called cosmonarchy. It adds a unit for protoss called a simulacrum which upon taking hull damage will duplicate itself after a few seconds out of combat. That combined with a mechanic called flash shielding (shields recharge VERY quickly out of combat) makes it so in order to get the free unit you have to put your simulacrum into risk and in combat in order to get the free unit, which the free one is worse than a paid one since it inherits any hull damage the original took.
People forget about the auto turret. A free unit that was a bit strong in Tvt (due to how engagements in that matchup work + siege tanks), but is now completely fine.
No. Free units are not the problem. It's temporary units that create the most toxic incentives. free units that are permanent (lets say free Orcs for Mordor or imagine a few free zerglings for zerg periodically ) can create fun immersive scenarios that make a faction feel swarmy but you still feel good about killing them. unlike those god damn swarm hosts.
Swarm hosts are basically useless though. It means nothing.
Found the BfmE player
@@oscarofastora474 Edain modders pulled of free units way better than blizzard
@@bigsmoke4592 I used to work on the Edain Mod (long time ago). But yeah, Edain was my first example of how free units can work. Mordor death ball pre 4.0 had its own problems though, mainly because of lacking collision in BfME Engine lol
@@oscarofastora474 I miss BFME...
i actually fully get what hes talking about with the issue that swarmhosts and broodlords have
to use broodlords as an example, ground cant counter them because theya re VERY long ranged and the broodlings effectivly form a wall between the ground unit and the broodlord, meaning that they cant get onto the broodlord to fight it
the issue of design here isnt the "free unit" but the massive range that broodlords have, which causes the free unit to effectivly make them invulnerable to ground
drop broodlord range by half, and the main issue they have goes away, ground units can fight them, they still "counter" ground, but they dont counter it SO hard that ground cant fight back at all
a similar thing can be said about the swarmhost, the issue isnt the free unit, but a combination of things, one of which is that 20 swarmhosts buried can just spawn half an army which can travel a huge distance, forcing the enemy to fight through a free army before they can even get close to the real army
again, the issue isnt the free unit, but the NUMBER of free units, and the fact they effectivly form a barrier preventing any interaction with the "real" unit
"free" units are not the issue in these examples, but a lack of consideration for the design AROUND the free unit
In the case of swarmhosts and Infestors with infested terran, the problem was ultimately pretty similar, in that, when massed, they could get practically guaranteed damage with insignificant risk due to the long range. + infested terran hit air.
In the case of brood lords, the broodlings blocking pathing was the main issue, because it prevented ground units from even being able to engage them.
In WC3, dispel and XP really cripple "free unit" strategies. If dispel and XP didn't exist, necro-wagon strategies would probably be extremely powerful, but because dispels can instantly kill an entire clump of skeletons, they're sort of a meme.
In the case of AoE4 "free units" they produce slowly from a relatively expensive production buildings.
On SC2 rapid fire, you can actually set the ability to cast on the ability press if it's set to the right hotkey, then set your keyboard repeat rate super low and just hold down the hotkey to cast the ability at something like 1200+ APM while waving the mouse over the enemy army. It wasn't binding to the mousewheel; it was even easier than that.
I think it's also important to mention that AoE4 free units aren't free, they still cost supply, so once spawned they are treated entirely like normal units
Yoo, really top tier from you to be open about changing your mind.
There are to many content creators out their, just having a fixed opinion and constantly screaming about how right they are.
When you took on the "Devils Advocate" role, I just thought, if he doesn't understand the points that were made, I'd think lesser of you.
But you aren't stuck in your way. Shows humbleness and decency.
I really appreciate that you are engaging with the topic at hand, and not just rage baiting. I was right rooting for you during your time as Warcraft 3 pro :).
A note about dimensions of engagement. Red Alert 3 had the most potential with that in my opinion, where the whole game and base building was made around the ability to use water tiles. The game had its own share of quirks and downfalls, but the way of how air,ground and sea interacted in that game was so fresh and interesting and i never seen anything like it since.
In Red alrt 3 it also worked cause the amount of flying units was way more limited in SC2
I wish more RTS were willing to take risks like RA3 did. Even to this day, people are still mostly churning out the same basic RTS designs.
Sounds a bit like supreme commander where you gotta balance out how many units you got fighting on the land, air, and sea. Ships obviously took the longest of all units to build (outside of the experimental units), but were great for shore bombardment and mobile air cover. Several had cruise missiles that could reach quite a ways into land, one ship could even crawl onto shore and serve as a mobile artillery platform.
Then of course there was your classic air and ground units. Fun times.
As a casual when it comes to RTS I see a simple solution for those spawn fiends : Make them short-lived and AI controlled with a short aggro range. That way they are still a nuisance but not exploitable beyond the battle they got spawned in.
SH didn't have counterplay, that's all, they could just run away while the enemy was occupied. They've designed it in an oppressive way, like many other things.
I made a mod just for fun, it was more an idea collection than a playable balanced thing. Put there lots of cool things I read in the forums. Aaaaaanyway, in my mod SH spawned locusts every 3 seconds and those had a short life span, so SH had about a tank range and they had to sit there rooted like a tank, they couldn't just walk home. The locusts were weaker as well. The ideas behind that were 1st that you could snipe them with air for example, or even a tank since they had the same range, and 2nd that a lot of SHs made a lot of clumped up Locusts that died even better to AoE.
Maybe something like that would have made for a more fun unit design. Anything that doesn't allow SHs to just walk away after they did damage.
That's a great idea but you also have to consider whether the player would look at that, and decide whether it's worthwhile to use vs just about anything else in the zerg army. If the answer is "not worth the cost" then the unit is wasted.
Alright, the problem with free units like from swamp hosts is that they can deal free damage until the enemy decides and manages to do a big counterattack. Every other unit combat is fundamentally about trading values, but when you have to fight locusts, they just destroy your units for free. In order to balance this the locusts must be weak enough as to not be too overwhelming, but strong enough to be worth it. This means a player must commit hard enough into swarm hosts, and the other player has to deal with it somehow. It also implies that swarm hosts are wasting their potential value as long as they are not sending locusts to cause "free" damage.
It's largely an issue of having thresholds, but that's due to how they work. Brood lords do not have the same problem. They are a flying artillery unit, and their broodlings are merely an addition to their inherent power. Infestors were fine because just as all casters, they could stack up their potential value (energy) and spend it in combat.
If you want swarm hosts to be functional, just double the cooldown of their locust ability, as to create moments of vulnerability between waves, and in change make the locusts stronger (hp/dmg). This means they become strong in offense, but bad at defence and open field skirmishes, as they have low mobility. And stacking them in numbers doesn't mean the opponent *has to* fight through 1 wave of locusts, and lose his units against "free" units, in order to get to them... who may simply escape.
Specifically in today's SC2, in Legacy of the Void; I disagree that Brood Lords shut down ground units too hard. That has certainly been the case in the past, but currently every race has the ability to fight them primarily with ground units.
Edit: Clarification: The Brood Lord attack used to have a strange quality where it could be used from much further range than the range actually displayed, which I believe was 11. Now the range is 10, and they actually have to be at that range to attack. They still shut down tanks and mines pretty hard, but it is much more possible than ever to fight and kill them with ground armies.
I don't see the issue with Brood Lords crushing low-tier and/or poorly controlled, and especially entrenched, ground armies, though. That seems like the whole point of the unit. They're ineffective as a defensive tool when forced to travel between bases, and obviously are defenseless in the event of Zerg losing air superiority. Seems balanced enough to me, though I agree about Swarm Hosts and Infested Terrans.
Anyway, good video!
thats not even true, protoss cannot fight broods without tempests or carriers, stalkers absolutely do not cut it, when there are anything else to support the broods, infestors or lurkers or vipers or ultras or pretty much anything make broods untouchable by stalkers, that being said thors obviously massacre broods and snipe is crazy good too. But you also have to realise that we have been nenrfing the unit constantly becasue its so frustrating to play against and now we got to the point where the unit is close to being garbage, if that doesn't show how badly the unit was originally designed, i don't know what would.
Comparing pure stalker with brood infestor viper is completely unfair, if the zerg has complementary units it's insane to think blink stalkers should beat broods
@@anima94 But nothing else shoots up mate XD. like what kind of ground army do you think beats broods+ couple of lurkers +a couple of vipers or infestors? I'm very corious, becasue immortals archons colossi templar don't help with dealing with broods. broods have the range adventage and block pathing so with stalkers you can't touch them without blinking on top of them, which is not possible if there is support, and you don't have anything to enable the stalkers to do blink on the broods, get it? Without tempests or carriers you cannot fight broods with a protoss ground army, thats just a fact. Ask any pro player and the all of them will say the same
@@norberthiz9318 archons shoot up, If I rush broods because my opponent made a ton of immortal/colossus and I'm on roach/hydra the typical quick counter is to try to land storm on the broods/hydras while flanking with stalker/archon/zealot. Typically it doesn't even get that far since just about every ladder toss does a hard carrier switch after about the 10minutes, and those broodlords are better left staying as corruptors.
@@norberthiz9318 you can fight broods with pure ground, obviously not when it's a maxed out zerg with casters on top of lots of broods, protoss would be broken as hell if pure ground could beat that
Free units are a big category. You have units that are free and permanent, you have units that are free and temporary, you have units that are free and priority attack targets, or units that are free and blocking, or units that maybe are not attack targets or blocking. Consider the crypt fiend attack, those spiderlings are kind of free units, but they don't have collision, they expire when they hit, but they're not quite standard projectiles either. Then consider something like the carrier with interceptors, this has a kind of free unit vibe to it, even though the units have a construction time, and they have a cost.
The thing is, consider the free unit as an augment to the existing unit. When a unit can summon a free permanent unit, it's kind of like now it's got a permanent buff that has hit points and maybe takes up more of the play field. So if you have one race for example that has a unit that summons a free unit on enemy death with 40 hp which deals 5 dps, and another race that has an effect that means that on enemy death they gain a permanent 40 max hp boost and an additional 5dps themselves until they lose 40 health, then these units are in line to being balanced. The summoning unit is probably a bit better off if the summoned unit can attack independently and block movement. But you could balance around that to make it more fair.
On the other hand, consider something like a swarm lord. What they are essentially getting is a free 100 hp every 15 seconds with like 50 dps with a very long range outside of the swarm host itself, who is burrowed. Now it does leave the swarm host open to focused fire if you can reach it and see it, but it's really the path blocking, the suppression, and the tanking that makes swarm hosts the way that they are, along WITH the range. They physically block ground units, they can attack in a way that you can't retaliate, and if you want to suppress them or if you a-move they require a ridiculous amount of health and don't put the swarm host at risk. Here is an idea that would change how swarm hosts worked. If players killed a locust, rather than it expiring from time, what if that dealt damage to the swarm host itself? This would have a giant impact on the way that it worked. The big issue with the swarm host is that the spawner can be inaccessible to retaliation.
But then, so is the siege tank. So how does the swarm host differ from the siege tank? Primarily, siege tank shots don't block, plus the swarm hosts have the range advantage. But again, this isn't so much the fact that there are free units, rather that they interfere with the pathing of ground units and have ridiculous range.
Similarly, imagine if broodlings had much shorter lifespans, and were shot by broodlords a very short range, and moved slower. Or if marines could walk on top of them and would prioritize shooting broodlords over broodlings. Again, it is the fact that the body blocking keeps the units safe from retaliation is probably the biggest factor.
Sometimes it's a problem with the DPS, but again, that can be balanced. In SC2 another issue was population caps, but again, this is a design decision, you could make these units contribute to whatever population limit you wanted to create, or you could balance it so that having maximum free units out at population cap didn't give you a significant power differential than what you'd get from having different units instead of summoners.
The problem isn't free units, summoned units, or whatever as a general rule. It is SC2s implementation of it. This doesn't mean that stormgate can't make the same errors. I think the big issue is SC2 took time limited free units and considered that since they were only available part of the time, they could be very powerful for that limited time frame. Otherwise they just play on the economy.
little bit of late response, but a change i thought about if they want to keep the Swarm host's tankiness as a factor of the unit, make the swarmhost earn its current healthpool as an "egg armor", as long as it holds the locust eggs it can remain a tanky slowmoving unit, but the moment the eggs come out it looses all those bonuses and becomes extremely squishy, perhaps even make it so spawning eggs requires unburrow, the swarmhost can still burrow with the eggs but Must expose itself when attacking, the unit would be balanced cause in its defensive state it cannot atack, and when atacking it looses all semblence of defense
I think I'd take a page out of the SC2 campaign, mutually exclusive units, if you get Swarm Hosts, you don't get Infestors, so there's a risk beyond the resource cost to using the SHs, so you'd have to take a bigger risk for a higher payout, but would need to destroy part of your infrastructure to swap to another unit of the same branch.
Grubby did a match few weeks ago him Nightelf Vs Undead. It was a really good display of free units versus Heroes. Where the undead was summoning a lot of free units to overwhelm the night. Elf armies. The balancing factor is that over time all three Heroes were gaining so much experience from a flood of free units that the XP was mounting up. So it's a well-balanced idea that the necromancer could win. But the longer the battle went on with a free units being spawned feeding the heroes XP then the Undead is going to lose. Like summoning is a rush tactic, You can abuse a rushing tactic if it's overused. It's meant to be quick, fast, and efficient that can't be calculated. When it's overused. It can be worked around as long as the game is designed that way.
That reminds me a bit of playing Heroes of the Storm all-random mode and formulating wins out of non-meta teamcomps. People throw up their hands & give up if they dont have a healer, or if they get a bad healer & the enemy team has a mainhealer because they think it means they can't win, but what that actually means is that the enemy wins the long fight, so you have to win the short fight, by playing aggressively, refusing to engage on the enemy's terms to goad them into overextending & then engaging them suddenly, and learning to back off from a lost fight early to stem the XP lead
There are no free units in WC3. Even necromancer use MANA (which is a limited resource) and corpses. And for the skeleton strat to work properly you need additional units, like meatwagons to transport those corpses and obsidian statues to regen mana (both of those units need to built in a separate building which is also needed to be built and every step costs resources). And btw you also need to make 2 upgrads for skeletons to be a viable strat.. That's a lot of IFs and resource spendings. So no - skeletons are not free.
The Rod of Necromancy is only a 150 gold investment for 4 summons of 2 each. While I don't think Rod is broken by any means, summon units bypass supply and training time, which is what I think defines a free unit. Mana is a replenishable resource, whereas gold is not. @@Stforv
@@tgr3423 I don't think that this exact unit bypasses training time. I consider time a resource in a game, and it takes different forms. In this case it takes time to build a magic shop, and you cannot bypass that. There's also a cooldown on the charges of the item. Also the magic shop costs resources to build and it all counts into the resulting cost of that item/summon, it least I consider all that as a resulting cost. So if a unit requires any resource it's not free, whether it's a replenishable resource or not. And the whole concept of supply limit was based on low-performance older PCs nothing more. So while I understand the balancing around unit limit I think it's a relic of it's time.
That was the UD screwing up. He should have deployed his necs aggressively (especially against NE, which always has decent dispel) to save his main, then tried to set up a skelly flood in Grubby's main ASAP.
The fact that he couldn't get out of his base or put up a nec attack (and necs can afford to die, especially if you're 2 base) was what doomed him, with the hero levels just sealing the deal.
Age of Mythology had a few interesting cases of these at the top of my head:
Hades shades which had a low chance to spawn when a human unit died, but they where pretty weak and capped to 25.
Mummies could insta kill a basic human unit to spawn a time limited zombie, which had a long CD and was tied to a T4 expensive unit. There was also a one time god power that spawned a bunch of them.
Seth got animals he could convert to his army but those where also pretty bad untill T4 and besides the free bunch you got for advancing a tier, required a priest to convert them which took a long time.
The most interesting however was Hecate's god power Tartarus gate. This was a one time building you could spawn anywhere on the map that while it was active, would spawn very strong hound units that where hostile to everyone and where limited to a range around them. Destroying the gate would stop them from spawning.
SC2 SH's where so opressive pre-nerf cause with Nydus worms they are a fire and forget unit that could decimate an entire expansion in seconds cause locust damage is so obscenely high.
There is a mechanic in Red alert 2 with cloning vats, its a strcture that gives you free infantry units, the thing is, you still have to buy one unit for it to clone, 2 for the cost of one and you still have to wait for it to come out. The structure is expensive and a very high tier(even more in that monstruosity that is Mental Omega mod) point is, you take a while to get it, still cost something tecnically and its time consuming to a extent, dangerous, but the oponent has many oportunities to deal with it.
and there is the units that use drones that are most similar to brood lords and Swarm hosts, but these work this way, tanky but slow as all hell(some are not that tanky), always VERY expensive, if the drone gets destroyed it takes a while to come back, takes more time if its multiple drones and just one at the time that gets replaced so atacking blindly will make you waste a LOT of time.
Veterancy also comes into play in RA. If an aircraft carrier lost a drone, it'll lose the veterancy of that drone and since drones are generally very fragile it's very unlikely that you'll see an aircraft carrier with a full veteran squadron and even if it does it's very easy to lose one of those drones and thus reducing its maximum DPS. A rocket launcher to dreadnought however increases its dps from its veterancy meaning it'll keep its bonus damage until it's killed.
@@minhducnguyen9276 Yes, hope one day a RTS gets the better of each game that came out before, so many cool things inRA could solve starcraft 2 issues and vice versa.
Not to mention in RA throwing free units at enemies only to tie them down will just increase their veterancy which will only make it worse as they'll eventually break the stalemate. Moba games like Dota2 follow the same principle, your free units have a gold reward, if you keep throwing them at your enemies without achieving your goal of killing them, all you are doing is giving them free resources
I'm not good at RTS games, but I don't think Red Alert 2 should be look up to, as a guide for balance. When I first heard thay the designer was the lead of SC2, I can spot balance problems the first time I saw its gameplay demo.
I don't think the old RTS cared as much about balance. There were simply other mechanics in the game that somehow ended up balance it out or the players simply accept the lack of balance and works around it.
The veterancy, resource nodes that you have to fight for, click speed, maps, mods,...etc. Swarm hosts are a cool unit, unless you have to play against them IMO.
they could make free units give minerals/gold if you kill them, like they did everything in DotA2 give gold: illusions, wards, etc.
Definitely sounds like Infest should be unlocked with an upgrade that requires Tier 2. When you have to change your whole game to accommodate a single unit, it's better to just change the problem unit.
I think a very big part of if a free unit is balanced or not is the amount of danger the summoning unit has to be under when summoning. For example, neural parasite can be thought of as getting a free unit but u don't think anyone would say it is too op or at least as op as broodlords/infested terrans/swarm hosts because the infestors have to be pretty close to use it which put them in danger and if they are killed, the spell stops meaning they lose the "free unit". All the other free units can be used from very far away.
Also, it seems that since the range nerf of broodlords, they've been way less op because now they have to get in range of thors and it is also easier for air units to punish them
@@justinfritz4817zergs entire late game is either broodlord spam or lurker spam
I think the best way to ballance free units is to give the opponent a benefit for dealing with them.
Units that gain advantage for killing enemies for example (A veteran system like Command and Conquer).
Or killing the units granting resources (Reclaim mechanic of Supreme Commander).
Or just XP (Heroes in WC3).
Player 1 (Free unit user) gains the advantage of pressure without resource investment. And if player 1 uses the unit smartly, they time out before the enemy had a chance to deal with them.
Meanwhile Player 2 can respond to these units in a healthy way. He might loose a few of his own, but the gained benefit mitigates the damage. In that way in an even fight: the free units caused only temporary damage. And if Player 2 can overwhelm the units in the right way: He instead gains from the interaction despite Player 1 having not lost any permanent units.
When you discuss "scroll wheel micro" 34:09 I think what you are probably trying to refer to is "Rapid Fire". In this case maybe you want to shoot a bunch of ravager biles. Usually you have a key for use the spell "Z" and then you click where to put it. Instead you bind the same key for where as well. So, you press "Z", hold it down, and wave teh mouse around. So Z choses the spell, it acts in place of the left click, and the mouse location still positions the shot. This works for all kinds of spells. Like spreading creep, EMP, snipe, etc etc. (Controlversailly, it does not work for feedback)
I think the spotter droid from Star Wars: Empire at War is one of the best "free" units I've ever seen, as it entirely serves to enable the function of the artillery unit it comes attached to. The only reason I consider this thing to be free in any sense is because it always spawns alongside the artillery, and is automatically replaced the next time you deploy that particular artillery unit.
Free units are a great way to differentiate races and provide diverse strategies. The only thing is that they need to have a good opportunity cost which produces a dilemma for the player.
Cost lot's of resource but no pop? Costs only pop, but a lot? can be easily countered by a certain type of damage? Needs a special building that spawns them regularly? Anything would do, as long as there are interesting decisions to make.
An interesting of free units are fighters in Homeworld 2.
Fighters get delivered in squadrons and if one single fighter of a squadron survives when you dock it in the mothership or a carrier, the squadron gets refilled for free. Bigger ships can be repaired by resource collectors, but they need to be repaired one by one and when resource collectors are repairing, they are not collecting resources. Replacing fighters does not interfere with your other operations.
What makes it difficult is squadrons still get refilled one by one, so if you have a lot, it will take some time if you have a lot of squadrons and they will have to fly all the way back to the mothership, making you potentially loose the resource patch you are fighting for before the fighters are ready again or you have to bring a carrier to the front and risk using the carrier together with all the docked fighters.
Another problem with Swarm Hosts was that what "counters" you did have were also countered by other things zerg had. You couldn't approach by ground cause they'd have a patrolling pack of roaches (against protoss) or ling-bane (against terran) on top of the waves of locusts killing all your shit and if you tried to attack by air the zerg could just have a pack of hydralisks waiting to shred your banshees, or worse if you try to kill them with tempests their vipers just yoink your super expensive capital ship for the low-low cost of 25 energy which they will never run out of because they also have consume...
This is a balancing point in Dota 2, actually: strategies that rely on "proxying" their own engagements, primarily Illusion/Summon heroes. Even if you present the main hero, the threat of their units is still a concern as well. I think what makes it work much better is the addition of elements that either just instantly destroy them (hex in Dota 2, Spellbreaker/Destroyer in WC3), and area of effect control/damage that allows you to atleast fight the swarm. It also helps that the ramp up time for Illusion heroes especially is particularly long: especially the main offender: Phantom Lancer. His laning stage is fine, but he contributes nothing on the map when lanes start to break down: instead having to play for himself until his proxy-nonsense is online.
TLDR: RTS summon units are cringe because how do you deal with MULTIPLE DIFFERENT types at once with much, MUCH less time to decide and enact counterplay? I suppose you don't!
I always figured the main trouble with spawnable units should not so much be the free damage, but the free hit points. Every attack absorbed by a summoned unit is a total waste of the opponent's firepower, which is the whole appeal of free units. I think it's fair when their damage output is pathetically weak, but they meatshield for a squishy army that would get shredded without their protection. Sort of the way NecroWagon worked in WC3 or roachlings from the SC2 campaign.
The Heirarchy in Universe at War has a good take on Free/Temporary units in the Thralls, which you have two types.
Cow Thralls (flat out one of the scariest units in the game if you ignore them) and Humanoid Thralls, both types of Thralls are made by killing units with radiation damage, in the case of Cows, the Hierarchy is giving up 500 resources for a unit, and for civillians, human infantry and Masari infantry, all of them provide Humanoid ones.
The best unit for this is the Defiler (a very fragile vehicle) as it deals a ton of radiation damage and is guranteed to convert almost any non-hero organic unit it kills, the thralls can then go on and convert even more thralls,
and it lets the Hierarchy snowball a bunch of free chaff onto the field to cover for their typically low numbers and Walkers which are your buildings that can walk around the map and crush other buildings, and if there is a Hero like Mirabel (Novus), Orlok (Hierarchy) or Charos (Masari) present who has good AoE Mirabel's snipe pierces targets (and can even rip both arms off the Assymbelly Walker + the face plate in one shot with good positioning) and her missile salvo does great at finishing enemies or cleaning groups of cheap units,
Orlok's artillery barrage increases in accuracy the closer the targeted area is and Charos can generate a Tornado around himself while the Masari are in Dark Mode, but what thralls are good at, is distracting turrets cause barring your vehicles and maybe Nufai, they move faster then all of your other units,
so the turrets will waste damage on these free units while your Defilers (who pull double duty as Anti-Infantry and Anti-Building since Beam weapons can't be redirected by Novus turrets and they strike most buildings for the entire duration of their beam's sweep), Brutes, Saucers, Walkers, etc., come in and start scrapping the base,
also unlike all the other Hirarchy Infanty, they don't heal from Radiation so you have no way to sustain them, you make like 20 or 30 of them, maybe convert a cow or two and you just send them in the front of your attack as a wave, but your giving up recources to do it, Civilians are 50 per, Cows are 500, most infantry units (barring human infantry) are ~100, so while they are free,
you are paying long term as your likely making one or two Defilers that is gonna run you like 700 at minimum last I checked, and every converted organic unit is less recources for your Reaper Drones to suck up, the Hierarchy have the most stuff to "mine" on a map as everything is fair game, but they can be very wasteful with it if their not careful.
In AoE 3 there are free unit training buildings that you can send in through home city card system for Japan and China i think. But nobody ever picked those, because there was always something else to send that just had a better tempo. Instead of one building that will teain 5 units per 5 minutes, you could instead send like 15 units right now. Or send in eco improvement. So it was an option that on paper wasnt bad, but the balance was that they weren't the optimal tempo choice.
China's Summer Palace and Confuscius Academy are staple though, both free unit generators. AoE3's approach was to equate free units to economic advantage, and they were balanced as a factor of your economy. This is the best way for free units to exist in a balanced way IMO. Arguably, however, these units aren't free. Opportunity cost is big.
Consider that every civ had a way to send troops instantly. So if everyone has it, the issue isn't that one could abuse it. And even in the case where rushes happened with a age up timing that you show with more army than your buildings show, they also would have had similar units to summon to defend, so everyone could do it kinda.
Just imagine Persian laming in aoe2 was possible for everyone somehow. Also free means free, the opportunity cost of them is much higher than 1 unit having no upper limit of what they can pump out like in blizzard rts's
@@SamSGLM sending troops via HC shipments isn't free at all though-- XP is a resource. Only buildings or units that can indefinitely generate units for free are considerable.
Another point, is Aztec skull knights, they are monsters in melee, and pretty tanky, but you have to use the ritual pit for them, meaning your spending a shitload of villagers on the buffs or free units
Another balancing factor IMO. Those free units are also often trash units. Reaching a critical mass with them, is a gamble of time invested. They are opportunity cost. The ones spawning free units in SC2, are Tier3.
Age of empires 1&2 conversions could be considered free
Aoe3 changed this but still allowed units to train other units and heroes converting guardians...modifiers governed their usefulness...
AoM tied it to either God Powers or Mythic Age units, as far as I remember
The one game where I dont think I have problems with free units is AOE3. But it not because the structure that spawns them are permanently gone if destroyed, its more so that everything else is so batshit broken that free units is pretty tamed.
The one exception is the Ottomans, but their late game is relatively weakness aside from Abus gun spam
If the Liberator was in HOTS, the Swarm Host wouldn't be an issue as it would already be countered. They don't even need to target structures, they’d kill Locusts so fast.
I agree with Beomulf that it's not about free units being bad, it's that the units that made them had no real counter.
The only flaw in starcraft free units is too steep utility curve. You can't for example add one swarm host or one broodlord to your army to make it stronger, it would be too expensive. And I mean only unit cost, not including cost of required buildings or researches. One infestor can be useful, but not because of spawning ability. But when there are 10 or more swarm host near your unprotected base - they became too OP. Broodlord does 46 damage against something unprotected and only 20 damage against deathball. So it is impossible to ballance it always will be too strong against weaker army and too week against stronger.
By the way, same rule can apply to nonfree units too. Look for example to alliance's steam tank, when there 2 or 3 of them they are just free xp for your enemy, but when there are more of them they can steamroll opponent's base even when he tries to protect with all his army and have some reasonable amount of siege units.
12:25 I was waiting for "I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!"
So one free unit option that shows that it is not inherently a problem is Ork Boyz in Dawn of War. One of the late game techs removes the resource cost for your basic boyz, allowing you to spam them indefinitely.
The reason this is not a problem is that while they are free resources wise they still take up population and build time from your production buildings, and as a result by the time you get access to them you have better, more pop efficient options available. So while you can spam free boyz they are just filling out your army as cannon fodder for your good stuff.
On the flip side you have Necron resurrection orb abuse, which allowed the necron player to exceed their squad cap and could very quickly snowball, all with the only cost being the res orb's cooldown. This was incredibly broken, even if you needed to buy the units then get them killed initially.
Two free unit examples from the same game. One which works well, and one incredibly broken.
Air can be especially fun and air vs air can be fun to watch and can be fun to play. Patrol micro Mutas and Scourge vs Coursairs is a battle done quite good. Its SC2 where lack of micro potential of units like the Carrier is making the whole air part sucks but there is a lot there in BW and its pretty good.
A thing that bothers me when it comes to likes of Swarm hosts or broodlords is that they produce a unit and sometimes the AI will prioritize the 'minion' which will at best die THEN suddenly another has spawned.
I always thought the change to broodlords from guardians is strange yet both are just Arial long artillery, so how come one is tolerated while the other is not? Well simply put, unit AI.
Which reminds me, in Age of Mythology, the mummy does not start with such minions but must kill a unit to be turned into a minion, then there is a notable cool down.
In war for the overworld, you do sort of get free units, sort of, you need a specific unit which isn't good in direct combat, the necromancer which creates the free units, these free units are made from fallen enemies that were dragged to where ever to make undeads and these undeads follow the necromancer as a posse.
Infact, I will talk about a very different concept, total war warhammer, specifically a faction of vampires undead, a general rule of undeads, they do not retreat, but fatigue results in damage overtime, including low leadership which is just magic binding, in short, if the lord dies, the army falls like dominoes, the vampire counts can get an upgrade for free zombies or simple skeletons, there is nothing special about these, with hte right counter unit, it can mean nothing, however with the right counter unit, that is free XP, yea units in Total war can gain XP, simple, the more ass they kick, the bigger the foot.
This can matter for players, for an AI that cheats on money, its pointless.
Though free units/minions are generally a case of "good attack, but are sourced", unfortunately, my topic struggles as the games I described do not have finite resources, well technically, the resources have a finite gain or you need to work in the early game to have perpetual resource gain, however that means you need to be more proactive.
7:48 Airships: Conquer the Skies
In Faeria, you start with water everywhere, and you can make some lake lands to deploy your units to, but that's just blue units and neutral units. Units of Yellow, Red, or Green color will require a different land type to deploy to. So some of the blue units are aquatic which means they can jump right on the spaces that don't have player generated land yet, as well as travel from lake space to lake space.
"I don't really have a solution right now for any of these issues" - monk
Yup, Stormgate's gonna have the exact same problems that plagued SC2 balance for years, I can already see it now lmao
at 7:46 Grubby, If you want an RTS that has great focus on air units and water units like you described there, take a look at Red alert 3. I haven't seen any other RTS that places a lots of emphasis on air superiority than Red alert 3. The game has many balance issues, yes, but In that game, if you have air superiority, you can do some crazy unit maneuvering with air units and players will always be encouraged to dominate air space or water space rather than ground space. If I have to be honest, Red alert 3 has better Air gameplay than even Starcraft 2 or warcraft 3 and better water gameplay than aoe 2 or aoe 4.
There's gotta be a trade off if there is a unit like this. For example the reaver - 15 minerals for the scarab and you need a shuttle to cart it around. Even though the 15 minerals per shot is peanuts, it still requires hyperfocus to keep them alive and actually do damage. If you can afk a free unit, that is absolutely braindead design which will lead to a lack of interest which happened to SC2.
Stormgate and infest is going to be a very hard thing to pull off, and they gotta pivot now if it's in the wrong direction or it could actually put the entire game in jeopardy
In my opinion, broodlings and locust are not exactly "free units" but projectiles that behave as units and that is a problem in itself. About the swarmhost, in any RTS if you make a siege unit that can be buried and that has a range that is 3 times higher than any other unit, that is obviously an issue. Lurkers work also like invisible siege / AoE damage units and they have been problematic.
Then units that cost mana, are also not really "free" because mana is a resource. The problem with mana units is that they are usually generated by casters and mana doesn't runout like minerals or gold. Other resources require workers, but this resource is generated by "fighting units" and, therefore, these casters not only fight but they also are part of the economy of the player. That can become easily OP, especially if the summoned units don't have a limited lifespan, because then there isn't any limit to create them.
I would argue that actual free units are units like the the mongol Khan in AOE4. You don't have to invest any resource and if it dies you get it back for free after a while. Units like that can be obviously broken but as long as they are balanced by other bonuses or other free units for the enemy that can still be fine.
Summoned units (even if they don't cost mana) do not necesseraly work as free units if there is a cap or a limit on the units that you can summon. Imagine that unit A costs 100 gold and 3 supply but it creates a summoned unit B for free (but only one). You can view the 100 gold+3 supply spent as a pair of units instead of one, and as long as the pair of units is balanced for that cost and supply in terms of DPS and HP that is fine.
The biggest problem with free units in my opinion happens if there is a snowball mechanic that can grow their number without a limit. For example if you have a caster that costs 100 gold and it summons a unit B every 20 seconds but each unit B doesn't expire. If you don't fight in 2 min, you may get 6 units B. Since your workers are also generating resources to build more units (possible more casters) your army is growing in a nonlinear way and can easily be OP.
Fiends in Stormgate created by infest belong more to this last category. You need to fight and get kills to generate them, but that can actually be even more problematic because you are not only killing a enemy unit but also adding to your strength. And if there isn't a limit on these units that can be really hard to balance. SC2 creep is an example of a problematic free unit. The first creep tumor only costs mana, but from that you can indefenitely add more and more tumors. So the number of tumors grows following at least a quadratic law and not a linear one (if the number of queens remains constant).
In my opinion, truly free units are likely problematic unless there is any cap or mechanic that constrains their growth potential or like in WC3 if killing these free units generates some value for the enemy (so you pay a cost for having them when they die instead of when you make them).
Actually, broodlings are literal free units because broodlord itself does 20 damage by launching the broodlings at the target then spawns broodlings for free and do more free damage.
I like free unit as upgrade for the most basic unit, like endgame dawn of war you get a upgrade that make the works be free, so you can spawn a horde of cannon fodder to keep the enemy distracted while your hero do their thing
Grubby talks. I listen.
I think we all just need to take a moment here to awe at the fact that Grubby just confused Kevin Costner with Westley Snipes.
Dawn of War had free units, but it was implemented great. It's an end game research, the units need to be built and you get very little of them even after you built them and getting more requires more buildings. What you get is the crappy tier 1 orc boys and then you need them to move all the way from your base and then they die like flies, but if you are that late in the game you deserve to spam free ork boyz at that point.
I can't think of any more Free Units than looking at Red Alert 2 and Yuri's Revenge with America and Yuri. America has a support power that allows you to airdrop 8 G.I. Units onto the battlefield. Yuri can make Psychic Towers or "Yuri Clones" to mind control enemy units, and you can even use those in a grinder to give yourself a lot of money.
From the perspective of a dota player, we have our free lane creeps every 30 seconds, but we also have "free" creeps in terms of summons which actually have had stat/interaction nerfs because of how overtuned they are to start. Within the last year, one toon got an interaction that added a new sort of "free creep" that was overtuned at first. A problem with putting any new "free" unit in the game is balancing the fact its now a new unit in a new game, but now **one more** unit in **this** game. In an RTS, its probably got to strike a balance between being useful without requiring additional player load while being effective against another player without overwhelming or lack of counterplay, not easy.
The issue with all of the units mentioned is basically that the summoner of the free unit doesn't have to be part of the fight. If Broodlords had 3 range instead of 8-9 or whatever and they were inside it wouldnt feel bad, if infestors had to be in 4 range of the infested terran that would have been different mechanic, if the Swarm host couldnt move while in cooldown that would have been a different mechanic. Thats the free units issue - that the summoner is not takikg part in the fight.
tbh they shouldn't have changed the guardian at all
zerg was very balanced and didn't have any outrageous ideas in SC:BW
@@sakesaurus1706defiler
@@alexmineru oh my bad
i mean the Spellcasters were kind of difficult to use in general so it's not a surprise that they were forced to nerf them after smart cast and pathing improvement
@@sakesaurus1706 the spacing of units did play a part in stuff not being as effective
@@alexmineru you mean like the aoe spells?
in for a penny in for a pound. I'm enjoying the Grubby brain train.
Dude should have just picked up Terran, but all protoss players be whining, I get it..Terran and Zerg are stronger, but doesnt mean Zerg are OP. No Top Korean is playing zerg or protoss...there is a reason.
In Age of Empires 4, the Ottomans can produce free units from their unique Military School. I think it's a cool mechanic and, thanks to the most recent patch, is quite balanced.
It is kind of interesting to listen to discussions about rts when it is something I haven't played in a loong time. My reference thinking about it was warcraft 1 lol, the demons and water elementals are so powerful :P. But the spiders and scoprions are surprisingly effective as well.
Grubs, you might want to take a look at Supreme Commander. It has fully featured air, ground and navy. Bonus detail: only a few hitscan weapons, and about half is not homing.
There's my way to balance out SH - make them straight up copy of a HotS campaign ones, no flying locusts - spawn them as ground units, they go as ground units. Maybe make SH root instead of burrow, im not sure about that - rooting made them clunky as f*ck for themselves and locusts even in campaign, i think in multiplayer it will bring their usage rate straight to 0%.
A free unit isn't necessarily bad per se, but to have units created without direct resources usually requires a cost applied somewhere else. If balanced properly, an entire civilization can be built around it.
There is a game that I used to really like, called Warlords Battlecry. It had two specific design characteristics that worked in tandem around the idea of summoning free units: The civilization of the Undead and the Necromancer hero.
The undead race had the mechanic of a multi-tiered unit that would upgrade between tiers at a cost, starting from the lowly skeleton which would be turned into a wight as a frontline unit, to a Death Knight, a stronger tank, to a Doom Knight, a terrifying juggernaut. Each new tier had massive resource costs, which would accumulate making the creation of the base units before upgrading a costly endeavour.
But there was a way to go around the high costs involved, and that is to have a Necromancer Hero. The game had the peculiar mechanic of being a mix of an RTS with an RPG. You would create a hero unit that would go between games and level up as you won matches. It had the ability to learn spells including the Necromancy sphere of magic, specialized in summoning different tiers of these undead units, that would in most official releases be permanent. Having this unit corrected the issues that the race already had, showing the opportunity to balance the hero and the race around each other.
Of course, this doesn't mention its cost. To use any of the spells needed a special currency from the hero: Mana, together with the skill points used in this sphere of magic. This meant that a hero that would specialize on Necromancy would be very good at massing an army, but could not fight it all by himself (Unlike other heroes, who were designed to be warriors) and would have no resources for aggressive spells. For "free units" to be balanceable, they need to have opportunity costs somewhere. Be it occupying supply slots, skill points or a slower economy around it, the player needs to feel like they are losing something by getting the free units, but still feel that it's worth it to continue with the strategy. It's a design problem that is not unresolvable, but tricky to get right.
I also found it bizarre because the Carrier would have been a perfect 'free unit' producer for SC2, but they made replacing interceptors cost minerals. Why didn't they take that same lesson they learned and make Broodlings+Swarm Locusts take Minerals to reload?
Minerals + time (Carrier can only build 1 at a time) and obviously a fixed limit of those units on board. And also make hosts unburrow to build new locust.
Problem is either range or treating caster and the unit created as seperate entities. If tanks could attack from 3 screens away they would be op or if infestor could suddenly get a 200 hp shield and shoot 4 projectiles evey half a second it would be pretty good. The problem is core balance of a unit as how much damage it deals how tanky it is and what has to happen for it to be good.
I think there is a lot more to unpack here. Warcraft is a chunkier game than SC2, that also plays to its favor. Often times the "free unit producers" are either Heroes or a very vulnerable unit. Meanwhile all 3 zerg summoners have a natural defense defense, broodloards fly, infesters can burrow and move while burrowed, and Swarm hosts can burrow and be way away from any threats. Compare that to WC2 Necromancer who is a very squishy unit, that needs another unit to tank for it. Plus the summoned skeletons are pretty weak with low HP and low damage and requires corpses so they add to an ongoing battle as oppose to being an opener. Hero summons are stronger, but still not that strong no when you consider the alternative hero abilities. A broodling is pretty much a free Zergling with a little less health, but i would say the health doesn't matter because it doesn't need to close distance and always gets a free attack off with its impact damage. That's a free Zergling every 2 seconds for no recourses, no larvae, no supply. Locust are even worse, they got more HP than a Zergling, they deal more damage, are ranged, and are summoned like 4 at a time. The SC2 spawn units are just too much value. It takes pro level skill to deal with them. They definitely are not impossible to deal with, just hard in a way a unit with no skill required shouldn't be.
On top having no good way for other 2 race to deal with it. If storm deal extra damage on the summon unit( or gen mana when kill summon unit) or EMP deal high damage for the unit like how dispell work in war3 then the summon unit will be less problem to deal with
Me, who uses the Operator as cannon fodder on zero money playthrough of Cepheus Protocol: *Sideways monkey stare and reflect
Also in addition to mana treants cost trees and beetles and skeletons cost corpses which means you can't summon them anywhere at any time.
It's not like meat wagons can generate corpses right?
Right?
@@andrewgreeb916 Meat wagons cost money and they generate only after an upgrade if i am not mistaken.
@@ivankovac7844 yes, but free corpses afterwards
@@andrewgreeb916 it sounds like you never actually played melee maps and you just watched few Grubby streams and think your "theorycrafting" will work 100% as planned lmao
@@JackMarcuson sure you got me I only played the campaigns
Could also be worth to mention that you can dispel most summoned units in WC3, so you have a few more options to deal with them. Makes it also a bit more balanced in my opinion.
I liked how you wrapped your thoughts in the final thoughts section.
I remember really not liking PvZ gameplay or balance in WoL so seeing swarmhost play in HoS in this matchup was actually much more interesting...
However the games usually ended in 1h+ slugfests with boring combinations like mass tempests+collosi+mothership vs mass sporecrawlers+swarmhosts+infestors+corruptors.
From my perspective the problem was not the swarmhost but the lack of counters of Protoss T3 (as Terran didn't really suffer vs swarm hosts by having good options).
Would Protoss have some kind of SC1 reaver unit which could deal with masses of locusts more easily (as storm is mana based and collosi didn't really provide enough splash damage) then it may have been manageable...
Would the infestor not being broken from day 1 and not countering air with one click, voidrays or carriers could actually counter swarm hosts plays quite well...
Free units that get disregarded are units under the effect of Neural Parasite. protoss is expected to tech up into costly and supply intensive units, but zerg can completely negate then with a high enough infestor count. Infestors cost 2 supply but can steal a 6 supply carrier, plus infestors can move while cloaked, against the race with the worst detection. Seens crazy to me that they made disruptors cost more supply, but zerg can still mass infestors at will.
All it should take for people to realize that balancing has been Zerg favoured since day one is to look at the dominance of Winfestor-Broodlord.
Three whole years of that shit plaguing ladder and tournaments both before anyone that could do anything about it decided to look into the idea if maybe Infestors were a bit too strong.
Queue about 3 months of change after change before the balance team just gave up and removed Infested Marines. It was THAT broken. For 8 years straight.
Since then, I'm always suspicious of any Zerg player who is supposedly "good".
@@OzixiThrill Unless you were very high elo, "winfestors" (lmao) werent the issue for zerg. Swarm hosts were a big fucking issue
I mean... We've always paid for interceptors and, way back when, scarabs. Even lore-wise, what feeds the swarm host if it's not on creep? Would the units like swarm host and brood lord work if their spawn cost one mineral each?
So all those free units have been nerfed or removed. BL’s have shorter range and broodlings exist for half as long, infested terrans are gone, and swarm hosts waves were nerfed. So now, zerg in sc2 has to roll banes into every comp, because that and corrosive biles connecting is the meta. SH is rarely played except vs turtle terran, maybe turtle toss. Broodlords are easily handled by both races now, either air or ground units hard shut them down. So the “free” units still cost something. In sc2, its supply invested into a unit that will not be able to do anything half the time(SH)or a unit on a one way trip half the time(broods). Free units are zerg’s only way to compete with the supply efficiency of turtling styles. If anything should change it is map design that favors and encourages turtling.
You can also make the free units in SC2 costs an additional resource beside MP and cooldown. For example in War3 the treants and skeletons and beetles all require and additional resource to summon, which is trees and corpses respectively. Now if you make the infested terrans and locusts cost 25 minerals to summon then the players have a decision to make. Do they want to make fast and agile crack zerglings or the slow but high AA capability infested terran or the mediocre but tanky locusts?
glad to see you've changed your mind on this
really just imagine , is locusts were slower , and infested terrans costed 75 energy , and brood lord attack speed was slower with longer lasting broodlings , that would basically fix all their balance problems , but instead we had lame solutions applied to them....
Stormgate needs Heroes and items in 1v1, not just in 3v3. Cmon Frost Giant! Do the right thing!
But also, another problem with the Broodlord as compared to the guardian is that while guardians are morphed from a harassment unit (the mutalisk) at the opportunity cost of being morphed into the Air to Air AA unit (Devourer), the Broodlord is morphed from corruptors, the Air to Air AA unit. So Broodlords cover the ground while corruptors cover the air. So larva can be almost exclusively dedicated to corruptors and whenever air superiority is achieved, more corruptors can be turned into broodlords to suppress the ground.
It also causes the (admittedly pedantic) problem of making the "mutalisk" (muta being short for mutate) have a bad name because it is now one of the few non-caster zerg units that DOESN'T have a transformation where in SC1 it was the ONLY one pre-Brood War (post brood war Hydras could morph into lurkers and mutas gained the alternate transformation into Devourers).
If you make Broodlords morph from Mutalisks instead of corruptors I think that would be an improvement to their balance as larva has to be split between mutas and corruptors to have broodlords. But honestly just bring back guardians and make them morph from mutas. Guardians are a better unit and bonus they are already in the game in Co-op and the campaign.
Also monk missed one "free unit" that was also problematic in SC2. The Raven auto-turret which I believe has been removed as of present day.
Free units just don't work in a macro game with no xp or specifically anti-free unit tech.
Auto Turrets are still in the game, but Hunter Seeker Missiles are not.
@@MondSemmel Roger. I remember like mid LotV they were doing a lot of iterations to Raven. Couldn't remember where it ended up.
And they don't stop comin, and they don't stop comin, and they don't stop comin, and they don't stop comin, and they don't stop comin, and they don't stop comin, and they don't stop comin, and they don't stop comin
Another important thing to note is that fiends cut into your supply (1 supply per fiend). Ofcourse, you can go over the supply limit by infesting, but you won't be able to remake units until you lose the extra supply.
Kevil has design level copium takes.
Broodlord has no anti air. Its a air to ground siege unit, same as banshee with the appropriate increase in specs for research to get to it (hell everyones no longer favourite SC2 stealth bomber was outright mathematically far superior from release through swarm to them, even when broods had max range).
Same for Hosts which are a static sieger that always had worse efficiency than tanks, but without the benefits of having a attack when not in static defense mode (and no amount of hypothetical travel range will change that their damage is reliant on a heat up time+lack of splash on enemy side). Swarm hosts dont have a allied T1 basic unit that at max upgrades can outcompete by resource and food to dps the best T3+ units unless its a long ranged cleave unit protecting them, same for broods.
Irony is both these wouldn't have ever gotten to the point if zerg had one of the OG WoL suggestions actually implemented. Hydras T1 (thus everyone has parity at T1 with target options), merge spore + spine with burrow swap between modes before upgrading to merged version and roaches bile gets the crypt web upgrade option. But no, actiblizz instead of encouraging early fights for resource dominance that would only lead to deathballs as tiebreakers SC2 started with cheese or deathball binary to gimmick timings to whatever the clusterfuck it became with Void that everyone and their mom gave up on for the far superior coop mode.
Same thing for the 36:05 bit, if you balance anything combat related but heroes, teleports and stealth by APM, you did it wrong on design level from ground up.
The only bad idea of the whole free units thing is the "META" prostitution that follows instead of thinking about how easy it is to counter on its own, how good a max stack of them are and internal faction/race balance; also why upgraded Psy, Fungal and EMP 100% should have had a at least 70% max time drain from current time left on summons (or if lazy just upfront 400 damage to them) as that is the point of the unit to ability role.
@grubbytalks do you know Metal Fatigue? (yes, its sadly old, unfinished and unpolished game) There is surface battle, where any unit can fight, then floating islands, that flying units can fight for and underground, that small units can fight for. So pretty much 3 maps in one.
Interesting concept, never seen any other RTS to try something like that. (not to mention modable robots with different interchangeable body parts)
The era of swarm host domination was when I checked out of SC2 and never looked back lol
What's weird is that there no shortage of examples of free units in Turn-based/Hybrid Strategy games, and overall it seems like it's easier to balance in that format.
The Heroes of Might and Magic series has a Necromancer faction that is built entirely around getting free units after every battle, but it's contrasted against the fact that they have no good ranged options until later in the game, meaning they also have no choice but to trade units in melee for a lot of early fights. This also limits the engagements they could take on in the early game when exploring the map.
Several of Total Warhammer's factions (Skaven, Undead, and Beastmen) have extra units that you can summon in the middle of a battle, but those abilities all have long cooldowns and the uses are limited. The summoned units would also automatically disappear after a set period of time.
I mean the SwarmHost in HotS was totally broken, but since than many things changed and SH's nowdays are really terrible with a huge cooldown. Even the Broodlords got nerfed many times, because Blizzard understood free units are kinda broken.
I think your "devils advocate" bit actually hit the nail on the head.
Free units are considered a part of/ability of/complement to the unit that makes them. When you spend resources to make a swarm host, or an infestor, or a necromancer, you're paying for that ability of theirs (and, in the case of infestors and necros, their other abilities as well).
The issues that arise from this are when either (a) the return is too efficient for the investment (as with infestors) or (b) when they are so safe to use that they aren't at risk of being punished (swarm hosts).
And those are true with any unit. If you made a thor cost as much as a marauder, it would be nutters just like an infestor's army in a can was. It would be too efficient for its investment.
If you made a siege tank that could attack from as far as those swarm hosts you were talking about, it would be just as nuts. It would almost never be at risk of being caught up to and taken out.
I was originally going to include a statement about "the free units being enough to do the job themselves and never needing to use your units that cost money," but really that's just the issue of safety again. After all, the bucket of "your units that cost money" *includes the summoners themselves.* Necros massing skellies being fine honestly has little or nothing to do with how weak the skellies are or how many answerd there are to summoned units in the game. It's because, in order to get enough skeletons in the first place, the necros need bodies to raise. LOTS of them. Bodies that despawn. And that means they need to be present at the battle to do their thing (you can store/generate some in Meat Wagons, but that will only be enough to get your guys started. You just can't feasibly get enough wagons to fuel your necros enough to win with skellies). They can't sit somewhere safe and send waves of free damage. They have to be where their enemies can get to them--even if the pile of bones makes it difficult, that doesn't make it impossible.
Necros are fine because if their play gets answered--which doesn't need to be from the specific answers to summoned units (though those certainly help), they can just get sniped by Archers. Of course, siege or air is better for that--the necros are close enough to be run down and die. Hell, they can reasonably be killed (or at least thinned) *before* dealing with the skeletons. That's the difference between them and Swarm Hosts.
I don't even think that the specific answers you said exist in warcraft 3 are a significant contributor in whether the *existence* of summons is a problem in that game. The existence of dispels as an answer certainly allows for the summons to be *stronger* without being overwhelming, but that's just how balance works for anything. Even without those there is room for summons-both permanent and temporary--to exist, at least in some form.
... hell, even the issue of free units being stackable and permanent (which is bad, it allows for building that overwhelming force to be deployed) at least half traces back to safety of the summoner. And then the other half of the problem is efficiency. "Infinite units" is an efficiency issue, it's by definition too much back for the investment. Not like "infinite units over time", that's the safety issue. I mean stacking and building them up, that's efficiency.
I'm getting horribly disorganized now... I would summarize the "safety" problem by saying that what needs to have costs isn't the units themselves, but the act of losing fights. Swarm hosts were obnoxious when they could afford to "lose" all day and not get punished for it. Even if they did only chip damage along the way, they could just keep doing it.
Hell, even if they did no damage but kept more supply tied up killing the locusts than they used, that's a win. The rest of my army can be elsewhere doing other things.
i hope that stormgate's vanguard has some fantasy elements and the infernal host has sci-fi elements.
Like some space marines are literally knights and OTOH some of the demons have some technology like doom or quake
For a video production comment I really enjoy this text editor more than the "fancy text generator" that you used before. It was confusing why there were two sections with the same text and the "fancy" text didn't really provide any value (maybe even negative since it was harder to read).
I had already watched this video but it was interesting to see your thoughts and how your convicted conviction changed at the end. It seems negativity around free units also goes back to your heartbreak sc2 video, that blizzard didn't update the game quick enough. Spending years playing unfun games against free units will taint your opinion eventually. At least it seems Monk/Frostgiant are paying attention and thinking about the gaunt issues. I'd say the changes they made to creep camps/fiend infest is already more than blizzard did the first year or two which is promising.
I feel like the version of the Swarm Host we have in modern SC2 is a far less problematic design than it used to be. I mean the unit is so extremely niche that it's borderline useless, but changing it from a defensive siege unit to an aggressive harass unit. Sure, the swarm host can do enough damage that 3-4 of them are a legitimate threat to buildings, much less workers, but they have *huge* windows of vulnerability and are a significant resource investment that isn't guaranteed to pay for itself. If you've got 4 swarm hosts, that's 12 supply, 400 minerals and 300 gas for a unit that will spend huge 30 second intervals providing you no value while the locusts are cooling down. If you see the zerg harassing you with 4 swarm hosts, the legitimate response is "Just go kill them." because their army is down 4 mutalisks worth of resources for a unit that can't realistically contribute to the fighting.
Another issue about broodlords and swamhosts is that they didnt have a resource in order to spawn their units. They just spawned them. In WC3 if you wanted to summon a unit you needed to spend mana. Sure you can get a lot of mana but that means you can't just sit back and just continuously summon free units and slowly bleed the opponent out of resources. If a group of swarmhosts exist, they will eventually win since they dont have a resource. Eventually they will destroy everything if your opponent doesnt kill them.
What would you guys think about a building that you can only have one of at a time, that spawns a wave of free uncontrollable units that just seek enemies and attack them. Long cooldown until they come again and overall not very strong.
You can count the free units as a weapon. The issue isn't that they are units with their own interaction, but consider the range and dps output, with a fire and forget effect at range. Lemme tell you with my experience modding games, if I made a unit that can launch it's attack from the next base over, reach and damage the eco, with the ability to just teleport back to safety after the first one or two safe volleys, it would be stupid broken no matter if it was a pure laser beam not a free unit. Because you can essentially use it with impunity with no damage yourself, very much like swarm hosts as you mention. It has the longest range in the game, no contest
Would broodlord have been balanced if the broodlings only had blocking hitboxes for buildings and themself and not for other ground type units?
at 7:44 , that's netstorm: islands at war isnt it, or am I overestimating the number of whirligigs
Tbh I think it all has to do with the unit and game design. “Free” in itself is not the problem. If we want to stretch the argument, how is a projectile different from a “free unit”? It’s single-use or timed. So should we consider disruptor shots free units? Why not? No health bar? Anyway, again, I think it just comes down to how you design them. How are they made, how can they be countered and what’s the overall impact when you take the whole game design in account. When Grubby talked about summons in wc3, I think it perfectly illustrates my point. Those units were not a problem because a) b) c).
To give an example, imagine a “free unit” like this. You have to cast a spell on an enemy unit, and it will work only if the unit is at least medium sized or large. The cast could cost a portion of the casters hp. There is also a timer for how long the debuff stays. Once the infected unit dies, it spawns a rather large “free” unit which after 1 minute needs to feed and will automatically eat 1 random friendly or nearby enemy unit. If it cant, it will explode and damage stuff nearby (or create poisonous goo). If it dies before the 1 minute mark, the caster takes even more damage cos they had some sort of a soul link before it feeds. Also, if your enemy keeps their infected unit from dying and the debuff runs out, you essentialy dealt free dmg due to the cast health cost. Opens up room for micro. In the end, yes, on paper it’s a free unit, but not really, and design plays a huge part.
The best case for free units in RTS games, I think, is some sort of retinue for a specific hero that is summoned automatically and serves like a weak fighting unit or a support for that hero (or maybe at random).
Those units should be easily killable with opponent's AOE but should create a pillow to save real units in PVE.
WC3 not counting this and that to total 9 ... well let's count ALL heroes with summon abilities (no items, but all temporary and edgecases)
Human: 2 (counting Phoenix), Orcs: 3 (Swordmaster Doubles are essentialy Summons), Undead: 2 (Counting Inferno), Nightelfs: 3 (Scout is still a summon, also Vengeance), Neutral: 7 (edgecases: Tornado und Brewmaster-Ulti)
...17 of 24 ... Should I also add Ressurection and Animate Dead (Temp-Ressurection) for 19 total?
good chat, mentioned homeworld when you said sky being the primary battlefield. that's what i'd have said.
anyway, there's bound to be some RTS with an underwater dimension that isn't just "invisible water units" like they are in warcraft 2, and surface units are the quirky ones.
Zerg gave this man PTSD.
For real..and they are not even that strong- he should have just switched to Terran.