Exploring 1982's Commodore B128-80 aka CBM 610
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- Right as Commodore was launching the Commodore 64 in 1982, they released another machine with 128K of RAM, 80 column display, 2 MHz CPU, a SID chip, an extended keyboard with numeric keypad. It wasn't the Commodore 128 falling through a time-warp from 3 years in the future, it was the B128-80, a very interesting machine which was quickly abandoned by Commodore.
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Links:
Steve Gray's CBM-II pages: www.6502.org/users/sjgray/comp...
CBUG Escape Issue 1: archive.6502.org/publications/...
Space Chase: www.spacechase.de
Commodore 700 reference: archive.org/details/commodore...
David Viner's tech info: www.davidviner.com/cbm3.html
CBUG / B128 History: www.insectria.org/b128/dusk.html
Bo Zimmerman's B128 page: www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/cbs.html
End credits music by bedfordlevelexperiment.bandca...
Index:
0:00 About the B128-80
2:09 A look at the keyboard
3:43 Looking at the case and ports
5:27 A bit of history: CBUG to the rescue
6:41 Some BASIC 4.0+ exploration: RAM use and IF/ELSE
10:21 INSTR(), Error TRAPing
13:33 Using the ML Monitor: SYS 4
16:04 Playing Space Chase (released 2016): SID Music
18:30 Inside the case
20:15 Check the links, and thanks! - Věda a technologie
I brought my Commodore 16 with me from my parents house in Toronto two years ago. The automated carry-on baggage scanner flagged my bag and the security officer didn't know what he was looking at on the screen. He saw a bunch of cassettes and a keyboard, and asked if I had some kind of musical instrument in the bag. He went through the bomb-material swabbing routine but was genuinely interested in the computer too!
Space Chase! Thanks for having my game in the video, Robin! I know it‘s… weird… to play but I just had to explore the system and do a game for the system after I was given a B500 (yes, one of the very early units) for free in 2016. BTW Michal Pleban has re-engineered the 8088 card and is close to finishing it!
It's a great achievement, congratulations on releasing the game! That'd be really cool to see the 8088 card in action too.
This is Michal showing his 8088 card. He‘s an amazingly capable guy. He has also developed a VGA card that is fully compatible with the system. Even Space Chase runs on it!
8088 card in action: czcams.com/video/u4O8dIvz3WI/video.html
VGA card in action: czcams.com/video/dMFniMYHjXE/video.html
@@spacechase6042 Super cool
@Space Chase! - Great work. There is nothing better than very very late games for obscure systems.
I've seen pictures of these CBM machines, but I don't think I've ever seen one running before. Thanks for sharing!
Same story over here, I remember those machines from magazines that my father bought back in the day.
I've never even seen one before. Though I'm in the US so that might be why I THINK they were mainly for Europe.
@@maxxdahl6062 A couple years before I bought mine, I saw a guy hawking them at Las Vegas COMDEX.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMDEX
His kiosk wasn't exactly swamped by curious crowds, and that was likely a bad sign for the machine.
I never even heard of this thing. Interesting video!
I never heared of it but found two of this boards in my basement...
The bell signaling the proximity of 80th column and the 00 key in the numeric pad are a true legacy from the mechanical era machines (typewriter and calculator with paper rolls)
I think it make sense anyway: Jack Tramiel in his first years in USA worked with mechanichal typewriters (selling, repairing etc.). Maybe it was his idea to make this new electronic device, computer, similar (in some aspects) to machinery that he knew. All in all VIC, C64 and others in external view resemble a futuristic plastic-made typewriter :)
@@wlorenz65 From memory the beep was just a function that was easily enabled or disabled. Probably a CTRL - combination but maybe just a memory POKE.
@@nickryan3417 Thank goodness for that. But yeah, it was probably a feature both to signal the ease of transition to a new user as well as highlight that this was a Serious Business Machine.
Non-repeat 00 button is a MUST for cash-registry or bank type operations which employ non-caring idiots! So many fewer errors from 00 buttons than having 0 or 000 where 00 is needed. Today we still use both 0 and 00 buttons on the numpad keyboards in our warehouse forklifts at my current job, and they are a blessing!
That's what these days would be lambasted for being "skeuomorphic" (pseudointellectual psychobabble for "humanly familiar attributes which we must eradicate all memory of as soon as possible").
The start message at boot time probably contains a clear screen control character, which explains the behavior when printing all the error messages.
This is the first video I've seen for a previously unheard of machine in a very long time, very well done.
That's amazing! I've been exploring Commodore universe since I was a teenager (and I'm not a teenager since early 1990's) and I've never heard anything about this machine. Fascinating! Thanks for this fantastic film!
I never even realised this existed. The jump from 1 to 2 Mhz is quite a significant one. So many games on the C64 (well, the Ultimate64 really) run so much smoother at 2 Mhz.
I wonder if the C64's production cost would have been increased at all with a 2MHz 6510 instead of the historical 1MHz. It already dealt with VIC cycle stealing, so would there have been any significant difference? I mean, I was thinking the VIC20 tape load/save code would need to be modified, but they must have had the 2MHz version of the code just lying around for the B128-80.
With a 2MHz CPU, the C64 could have gotten a little more processing done during horizontal blank and significantly more processing done during vertical blank... basically like the Atari 8-bits but with a fractionally faster CPU.
Well, back in the day, I had a C64. But when the power supply died, I came close to buying a replacement power supply. Though, interesting from the same company where I could have gotten the replacement, had advertised the B128. I guess, at the time, I wasn't too much impress in such a system for the money being charged. Though, eventually wound up getting a C128 instead, a year later. Yes, the C128 normally ran at 1 Mhz, yet had the ability to toggle to 2 Mhz, but the 40 column mode would blank out with the increase speed. Yeah, looking back B128 was a nice system but the C128 had backward compatibility with C64.
@@IsaacKuo If the VIC-II could have been used at 2 MHz, they surely would have run the P128 at 2 MHz instead of 1 MHz. (The P128 was basically a B128 with a VIC-II instead of a 6845 and a couple of joystick ports added.)
Thank You. Reading the ads in Run and Gazette, this machine always fascinated me back in the day.
Fantastic video -- I love the B128 getting some love!
More comments for you:
1. You need 256k roms to get the computer to recognize the extra 128k.
2. That boot delay is *definitely* a memory check. If you think it takes a long time now, just wait until you update it to the 256k roms.
3. More killer games: I did get Attack of the PETSCII Robots running under the PET emulator for the CBM2. :)
updated Kernal ROMs?
Awesome vid, saw a lot of computer magazine ads back in the day when they were on fire sale, always wondered what they were like... Now I want one of course!
Oh my goodness! I’ve never seen this machine ever! Not even online!
Beautiful condition! Beautiful case design! "The case design was rumoured to have been designed by Porsche. While true that Commodore went to Porsche initially and a case was designed, it would have been prohibitively expensive to produce. Instead, armed with the original PET design they turned to a Boston design firm. Ira Velinski was the man that ended up designing the case, which later won an international award. The case designs were one of the few computer cases Commodore ever patented."
This is a great video! Your friend is wrong about "RUN STOP" being one word though. They're two different functions. Remember, STOP interrupts a program, but when you press SHIFT + RUN STOP on a VIC or C64, it says "PRESS PLAY ON TAPE", then after loading the program from tape it RUNS the program automatically.
Well this is a first for me! I never even knew this machine existed in all my years watching retro-computing vids -- cool !!
Amazing, I've never heard of this machine
It is very nice you made a movie about an unknown Commodore computer. The fact that it is unknowns is not that strange, the computer has some short commings. You perfectly showed what was wrong, very interesting though.
So, Is Attack of the Petscii Robots going to be ported to this machine as well?
IIRC, David planned to but he seems to have dropped it.
He seems to be open to providing source for people seriously interested in porting the game. That is how the Apple II version came to be. Could be a pretty cool project for someone familiar with this machine, considering that this is kind of a souped up PET with the extra memory and SID chip.
Hi Montie! It's not necessary. It will run under the PET Emulator for the CBM-II machines, though you need Steve Grey's version with the easy 40 column config. It's more troublesome in the high-profile models, but works on them also.
I was always curious about these machines; would always see black-and-white halftone adverts for it in Compute's Gazette and other Commodore-friendly publications. Thank you so much for this video!
REALLY ENJOY YOUR VIDEO.. YOUVE GOT A CALMING VOICE AND VADT KNOWLEDGE OF ALL THRES UNITS.M ALONG WITH A GREAT HEART...
I've found it surprisingly easy to convince Commodore to send me engineering info and internal notes in the first half of the 80s (as a 14 year old, wanting to know details about how the IEEE-488 cartridge (for the c64) hardware worked, it took one phone call to get a big envelope with schematics, code for, and notes on the firmware and registers), not so much later on during the 'Amiga years'.
(sadly the documentation got lost, together with the cartridge)
Not to mention that envelope labelled COMMODORE. 😃
Thanks for this Robin! I never seen this model before now!
Now HERE is a machine I never expected to see live, as it were. And to find there was even a pretty decent Sinistar-esque made for it as well! Excellent video, thank you for covering it!
I remember being a 5 year old kid and seeing one of these advertised in a Canadian Tire catalogue right next to a breadbin Commodore 64. This computer intrigued me. I've yet to see one in person. Commodore sure made a lot of nice computers.
Interesting, first I've heard of the B128-80 being sold through Canadian Tire! I do have a CT catalogue with the Plus/4 shown along with the C64.
Thanks so much for this video, Robin. This is one of those mysterious Commodores very few of us have had a chance to experience. Have to keep my eyes out, although I'm sure they are very hard to find. I'll check out the user's group to see what other software is available and may play with it in emulation.
Impressed with the build quality. I can remember when "Protecto Enterprises" was liquidating these machines in the U.S. I was tempted to get one, but I went for the SX-64 with an SFD-1001 external floppy instead.
SX-64 is an excellent choice, and probably just as good of an investment as it turns out!
I would have went with an SX-64 all day too. I would LOVE one of those.
Thanks for making this vid - this machine always been interesting but very little information is known.
What a beautiful looking machine. Really futuristic.
Thanks so much for showing it, I’d never heard of this machine.
Never even heard of this machine before Robin thanks for sharing.
I thought I was a C= fan but I had no idea this beast existed. Thanks!
I knew little about Commodore's PET/CBM series other than they preceded the VIC-20 and 64 and saw liquidation ads for the B128. Then after Commodore went out of business I learned more about its history and all the models its produced. I have to say I like the curved design of the B128 and wish a modder could make a 128D case in the style of the B128.
Whoa, this is like a Commodore from another dimension. I've never seen any of the rounded Pet successors. They're pretty stylish and weirdly retro, even for their time.
Your Videos are amazing, thank you very much!
I remember lots of ads for these in 8 bit mags. Always a deal with printer, monitor, etc.
Great video and in depth. Thank you sir. May RUSH always be playing on your car radio!
I really like the specs and style of this machine. I would have loved one back in the day.
Very cool. Your videos are always great!
Cool machine, new one to me. I love the design. Nice channel, keep up the great work!
In the 80s, Commodore keyboards were floating around for little money among the local C64 users, it may well have been this one. I got one and used some key caps to highlight some of the keys on my C64, where they still sit today making it special.
I know for a while there were a lot of Commodore 16 keyboards in surplus. Radio Shack even started selling them! That'd be really cool if you got a B128 keyboard; I think it's a really nice design.
I have the CTRL-, CBM-, SPACE- CLR/HOME-, and INS/DEL-keys on my C64, and they look exactly like those of the B128 in your video. Sadly I can't find the rest of the keyboard anymore; but I am quite sure it also had a number pad and four cursor keys.
It never occurred to me that it says "INS" and not "INST" in all these decades until I watched your video. ;-)
O wow, I might need to turn in my 8-bit geek card, since I've never heard of that beautiful thing before. Thanks for the review!
Also, Max Hall (the Space Chase composer) is the guy with the amazing 6581 chip tattoo.
Check out the CBM 720 (aka B 700/256 or CBM 256-80). It is a thing of beauty
I've never seen this machine before. I really like the design of the case, but the keyboard layout could use a little work.
Thanks for sharing!
I've been using Commodore stuff my entire life and there are still computers I will probably never touch.
TRAP will make life so much easier for C64 BASIC programming.
Definitely a thing of beauty.
Love your videos...thanx!!!
I grew up with the c64. However, this machine is memorable to me because a friend of mine had this machine in addition to the 64. He even let me take it home for a while to play with for a while which was neat. Neat computer. It worked best with a monochrome monitor though. The magnavox rgb monitor 40 I had did not display the 80 column text very clearly because the dot pitch of the shadow mask was not fine or small enough to give the proper resolution for the 80 column text. Still it was neat machine.
I never heard of this computer before. But I really like the look of it. It's too bad it was abandoned.
I'd never heard of it. Although it was expensive, it would have been nice to have seen it go further. Great review!
"on error resume", very notorious BASIC feature :P
5:30 Protecto, eh? This ad is where I bought my B-128 system. And, I do mean that's the exact ad. Good grief, $895 was a good chunk of change for someone with my income in 1984!
I couldn't pass it up though, and I did get my money's worth out of it. The only component of the system that still works is the computer itself... hypothetically. It was working when I last had it set up, before I bought my first Amiga in the early 1990s.
The dual floppy drive was a heafty, two-arm beast.
I even joined up with C-BUG. Wow, this video is really nostalgic for me!
Great to hear from someone who bought one of these! C-BUG certainly seemed like a force, driven by some very determined people. I was certainly curious when I saw those Protecto ads back in 1984 or whatever, but was happy enough as an 11 or 12 year old I had managed to get the $200 together to buy a C64, and made due with my black & white TV and datasette.
@@8_Bit Well, I've got a few years on you, haven't kicked the bucket yet and turn 68 in a month.
I was married when I got my first C64, and she held onto the purse strings pretty tightly. So, I didn't have anything but a portable B&W TV for a monitor until years later...same story with regard to disk drives. Sounds like we had the same C64 setup in the early 80s in spite of our age difference. My wife attempted to murder the C64 when she found it with case open and CUT the ribbon cable! Believe it or not, I (somehow) managed to solder the cable and get it working again. That pissed her off so much she slammed it into a brick wall, which finished it off. In the same fit of rage she took a hammer to my Timex-Sinclair 1000. Nice lady.
P.S. I now have a mint in box TS1000, and recently acquired a The C64 Maxi. :-)
one of the most beautiful commodore
The pi key being there is the equivalent of pushing "\" or "]" when trying to push enter
Same goes for ANSI layout when you're used to ISO. I always press above the USA enter key on a PC. Not on a C64 though. :-)
Norm Graph was the lead system programmer for CBM at the time. 😂
Oh great. I'm NEVER going to see that key the same way again. I'll be laughing every time!
He drew the short straw to get that gig.
I remember that ad! I always thought it was some sort of scam - a "B128???"
Robin: Thanks to Golan, the previous owner...
Golan: Previous owner?!?!!!?
It couldn't be in better hands. (See what I did there?)
@@gklinger Thanks for helping preserve this treasure. One of the few sleek designs from Commodore besides PET, I wish C64s came in a similar case like this.
Robin: *need to show a size comparison to a C64* // *pulls out silver label C64 because he can*
It was the first C64 within reach, honest!
i believe i have seen pictures of this line of computers in the past, but i have never seen one 'in the flesh' ...
Thing I learned today watching this video: the "CE" button on calculators means "clear entry". I've always seen the "CE" and "C" buttons, but never could remember which one cleared the last number and which cleared the total. Now I know! LOL
Another nice thing about that numeric pad layout is the inclusion of a question mark key on it. This makes a lot of sense for a computer running BASIC, as you can use it to enter PRINT statements that print out the results of numeric calculations using only the numeric pad. I've never seen any other computer that included this, though.
Great another one I need to add to my collection now! I'll have to bug Golan to find another one.
Thanks for the mention and also including the link to my site. Actually, my surname is pronounced as in "Diner" and not "Dinner" - don't worry, I'm used to it as lots of people get it wrong - ha ha! Also, I suspect that, although you have 256K fitted, the ROM is just the one for the 128K machines so it's not only not allocating the extra RAM there for variable storage, it probably isn't allowing the FRE command to recognise it - I'd have to check the ROM code to make sure of that, though. I noticed another interesting difference between the one you have and the one I had - my IEEE port was marked User Port on the back - so I suspect yours is a later model.
Wow I've never see this one. Pretty cool!
It has a SID? Then it must be great!
What a treasure!
(Good job I don't have one. If I did I'd take it on as my holy duty to spend the restof my life playing around with it like understanding every bit and writing the games and demos.)
Lovely looking machine
I was lucky enough to find one of these and an 8050 drive at a Goodwill. Lovely machine!
Now that's a great find!
@@dbranconnier1977 I had to drive from the Bay Area to Tucson to get it. Totally worth it :)
I had a "Profitext" Cartridge for my CBM 610. The 7xx are the ones including the Monitor and Disc drives, the 6xx are the ones as you show in the Video.
That is actually a pretty interesting looking system with a really nice looking CPU. I remember seeing ads for these back in the day and not thinking much of them. Nice case design. Edit: Looked it up, it was "Protecto Enterprizes" ads I saw.
The case design and the CRT screen look amazing! Solidly stuck in the 1970's though.
It is interesting to see how much glue logic is still in there that later got replaced by the PLA in the C64.
The big deal about the numeric keypad is the "0" key being offset so that the thumb can be in a more natural position.
Intresting funky design!
very interesting, I never knw anything about that model
On the title screen of that Space Chase game, Player 2's ship looks like a middle finger!
God this one's obscure. I think I might have heard this machine mentioned once before in my life.
If you have the VICE emulator, the program `xcbm2` emulates one of these.
Video molto interessante,bel computer,ben tenuto
A better 128 from 82 ?
I still have my Vic20, my C=64 and my Amiga 3000 (and I still believe I’ll open a box and find my missing C=128). I thought I knew my C= history, but clearly not, as I’d never heard of this machine!
The chiming is really cute, reminds me of 80's cars from Japan which had a "speeding" chime to let you know you were going too fast.
What a shame that didn't take off I really like the look of it.
Wow! I have vaguely heard of these but never paid a lot of attention to them. Do they generally run all of the PET software?
The machine you have hands on is pretty but that BX256-80 in the marketing materials at 0:50 is just lovely. Retro-futurist soap bar curves but still very "serious business". I'd challenge any tech-head to walk past without having to touch it. Proper sexy.
Used one in high school along side apple IIc and IBM AT. It was such an oddball but loved the 80 columns.
What software did it run? Looks like it need a good wordprocessor and spreadsheet from the introduction to be a success.
very nice :-) i wonder what miracles are hidden in this machine - it has a SID and twice the CPU speed and memory of a C64! "mayhem in monsterland" port, 4th audio channel, ... :-)
18:18 - a cartridge slot without a cartridge. It's almost like the Commodore MAX game system in reverse. At least this machine actually got into the hands of the customers!!!
Apparently there were a small number of cartridges made for it that I wasn't aware of when I made the video unfortunately. One is a spreadsheet program or something like that.
The video port is labelled as "INPUT/OUTPUT" on the box at time 01:43. What did this computer hope to do with video input?
Wow always want one of those
Great, thanks. Would be interesting to know what business software was made for this system (as that was its primary market, not games).
Text mode games are so bizarre, yet intriguing, all the same..
Nice machine! That "Space Chase" uses so called block graphics, using 8 different characters from the character set and their inverted equivalents to be able to draw 160x50 square blocks instead of native 80x25 characters on this machine. 50p resolution!
I had one of these in 1993, it cost me $1.00 US at a police auction. It was pretty powerful in its time. If it had better graphics with color then it would have been an awesome game machine. I lost it and about 40 other 80s machines in a house fire a few years later. I wish I still had my B128.
That keyboard layout looks decent. I wish my C64C had all the arrow keys, pressing shift all the time is a bit exhausting while making music...
Damn, that is most beautiful computer i have seen, especially with that monitor, those curves, what would i give for same case reproduction for pie or some itx bord...
I remember seeing ads for these in magazines of the era, but I'd never actually HEARD of them anywhere else. I just assumed it was some non-US alternate version of the Commodore 128 being imported and sold in bulk. Waaay wrong on it being like C128. WOW. :)
_"It has no ports at all..."_ I was gonna say... sounds more like it was designed by Apple, than Porsche.
Well Apple of the modern era lol! I've felt Apple has slowly been going downhill in many ways after the Apple II GS, and ever since Steve Woz left the company.
1979, 1989, 1999, and 2019 Apple are very different companies
@@askhowiknow5527 what about 2009
Just when I thought I've seen all CBM machines, this pops up. heh
Ah, not sure if anyone noticed, but the B128 has a few additional keys, then the C64/C128 line. Though, in retrospect, I think the B128 had a simpler architecture than the C128 which came after.
A shame they didn't put a Vic-II chip in here and leave the 8088 socket empty(upgradeable)
well... shift-run is indeed the 'upper symbol' of the key which does load and run things.. whereas stop (the lower or normal non-shifted function of the key) stops them.. so yes. 2 words. 2 lines on the key. just like any other key with 2 symbols or functions.